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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMarch 20, 2008 P&Z MinutesMeridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 35 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: Sonya, are we clear there? Watters; I believe so. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. O'Brien.: Second. Newton-Huckabay: All in favor? opposed? Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. That's the end of that hearing. O'Brien: Can we take five? Newton-Huckabay: Yeah. V1/e will take a ten minute break. (Recess. ) Item 9: Continued Public Hearing from March 6, 2008: CUP 08-002 Request for Conditional Use Permit for a drive through establishment in a C-G zone within 300 feet of another drive through facility for Sonic Southern Springs by Boise Food Service - 1870 South Meridian Road: Newton-Huckabay: I'm going to open the Public Hearing on CUP 08-002, request for a Conditional Use Permit for adrive-thru establishment in a C-G zone within 300 feet of another drive-thru facility for Sonic Southern Springs by Boise Food Service at 1870 South Meridian Road.. Take staff. Parsons: Thank you, Madam Chair Person, Members of the Commission. The application before you tonight is a Conditional Use Permit to allow adrive-thru establishment within 300 feet of another drive-thru establishment and existing residential zoning district. Design review approval is also requested for the purpose -- for the proposed structure and site, because of its location adjacent to an entryway corridor Meridian Road. The subject site is located on Lot 11, Block 1, of Southern Springs Subdivision No. 2 near the southeast corner of Meridian Road and Overland Road. The property is bordered on the north by Southern Springs No. 1 and No. 2, zoned C-G and L-O. To the east is Running Brook Estates, zoned R-4. To the south is Southern Springs No. 2 and 3, zoned C-G. And to the west is Elk Run Subdivision, zoned R-8. One thing -- I'll move to the site plan -- or the aerial here. You can see -- it's kind of an old picture, but directly to the north there are -- those are where the adjacent drive-thru windows are for the other businesses. So, apologize for that. This lot and this lot here. And, then, here is your residential subdivisions. One other thing I'd like to point out is this is -- staff got this revised site plan on Tuesday and I did transmit Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 36 of 57 that to the clerk, so, hopefully, you did receive that in your packet. I believe when I sent out the memo earlier on Monday to the clerk I had mentioned that this landscape island had been removed. Well, with this most recent site plan the applicant has put that back in. And the applicant is proposing to construct a new 1,526 square foot Sonic drive-thru restaurant on the subject property. Twenty-one parking stalls are provided on site with 17 of the stalls proposed for drive-up ordering or vehicle dining and the four remaining stalls are for patrons who wish to eat at the patio area. Access to the site is taken from a private internal driveway east of Meridian Road and extends north to Overland Road and South to East Calderwood Drive. So, basically, here is Meridian Road. Here is where the access comes into the development and along -- running along east -- I guess I'll go back one slide. Along the east -- or north-south and east of Meridian Road and, then, at one point it exits onto Overland Road and the other one is -- here is where East Calderwood Drive is. The applicant is proposing hours of operation from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Monday through Thursday, and 6:00 a.m. to 12:00 a.m. Friday through Sunday. Other drive-thru businesses in the Southern Springs development are restricted to the hours of 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. to help alleviate the effects of noise, traffic, odors, glare and other nuisances created by the businesses to the adjacent residential properties. Staff recommends hours of operations to be limited to the same hours as the other drive-thru businesses in the development. That applicant has submitted a landscape plan with this application. The street buffer landscaping along Meridian Road was reviewed and approved with the final plat for Southern Springs Subdivision No. 2. Staff has reviewed the internal parking lot landscaping depicted on the landscape plan and found it -- and finds it substantially complies with the landscaping requirements in the UDC. Although adrive-thru restaurant may be an appropriate use for this site, staff has major issues with this site design and building elevations that are currently proposed.. Meridian Road is a main thoroughfare and is designated an entryway corridor in the City of Meridian and lends itself to opportunities for high quality architecture and site design. However, the applicant is proposing to orient the subject building with the rear elevation facing Meridian Road. The rear elevation does not comply with the design review standards for buildings adjacent to an entryway corridor. Further, there are covered car hop carport structures proposed adjacent to Meridian Road that staff believes are not appropriate next to an entryway corridor. Because the site plan and elevations do not comply with all the design review guidelines, staff believes the applicant should redesign the site and go -- kind of go back to that site plan. Here are those covered carports we were talking about, the parking stalls.. You can see here is Meridian Road again, you know, trash enclosures. This actually protrudes out farther than the proposed building again. Staff does have concerns with this rear elevation. Here is where their seating area is going to be proposed., so, again, it's not fronting on Meridian Road as the design review standards require. Here are the previous elevations. Just -- as you can see here is the front of the building here. Again, you see the arched canopies. This is where the applicant -- the patrons would be sitting. Here is the rear of the building. Not much modulation or variation in the facade there. Very plain walls. Again, you have the doorways, you have the electrical paneling there that you can view from -- again, this is all from Meridian Road. The applicant has revised the elevations on the site and -- excuse me -- they are proposing to add ascreen -- proposing to screen the back of the building with a nine Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 37 of 57 foot wall. The applicant is -- the wall is approximately six feet from the back of the building between the material -- between the building and the drive-thru speaker box. The wall is proposed to be constructed of the same building materials, i.e., the concrete paneling. Also on the proposed -- also on the proposed wall -- screen. wall there are two post display boards. So, basically, what the applicant is proposing is here is the wall that they are adding. I.t's not really part of the building, it's just more as a screening feature, rather than adding really design elements to the back of the buildings. These are the menu board, medallions that I'm speaking of. They are also proposing to place two of those on that wall as well. The applicant is also proposing a detached arch decor canopy on the west elevation, similar to the west canopy featured in the front facade. Included on the revised elevations is a half rounded facia added to the north, south, and east that adds to the parapet variation and screens the roof top mechanical equipment. The applicant has made some significant changes to the elevations requested by staff, however, staff would prefer the front facade face Meridian Road, not the internal private drive aisle. So, again, if I can go back to these other elevations, they have added -- this is where they have added facia on the new elevations and, then, I'll step back. You can see here it's -- it's hard to see on these elevations, but you can see it kind of popping out there. You can see that facia added here. And the one thing they failed on with their previous elevations to show us, too, was that the canopy for the parking structures weren't added onto those elevations. So, they have added -- that's what those dashed lines is, basically, these are those parking stalls that you pull up and that the patrons can order from their vehicle and waitresses come out and take their orders. So, you can see there is some modulation, some change, but if those canopies were removed you'd basically have a rectangle box on Meridian Road.. Again, the applicant had made some improvements to the elevations and site plan for the site. Staff feels -- still has concerns with the rear elevations fronting on Meridian Road. Staff recommends that the applicant comply with all the provisions listed in the staff report -- the previous staff report. And that concludes my presentation and I stand for any questions. Newton-Huckabay: Thanks, Bill. Marshall: Madam Chair, I have a question. Newton-Huckabay: Commissioner Marshall. Marshall: Bill, let me figure out in my mind about this, but if the entire -- if we went back to the site there. If this entire site were turned 180 degrees, how many of the issues does that address? Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I know, basically, from talking with the applicant there are quite a few constraints on the site as far as easements and those things. I'm not sure where they are located on the site. They would have more of that information, So, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to have them address that or ask them that question and see what issues are there and I know they have tried to do that, but I don't know why it doesn't work. So, I'd much prefer have them address that, so that they -- they know the site better as far as those kind of constraints. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 38 of 57 Marshall: My question, though, is to your -- would that address your concerns. Parsons: Correct. Marshall: It would. Okay. Parsons: If this building would -- if this building would flip and have the seating area facing on Meridian Road, staff would like that a lot better. Marshall: And the parking here would be over on this side? Parsons: No. That could stay. I mean our major concern is really that rear of that building fronting on a major entry -- major thoroughfare and with no -- and with what the applicant's proposing with just a screened wall and a detached arch canopy, that's not really addressing the back facade, it's just acting as a screen tool, rather than actually addressing the rear facade. Marshall: Thank you, Bill. Parsons: You're welcome. Newton-Huckabay: Commissioner O'Brien. O'Brien: Yeah. Madam Chair. Bill, I agree with the -- the issues with the electrical panels in the back of the building there. I have comment about that. We are not being very consistent, because less than 50 yards away there is a building they are just finishing which the whole side panel or wall of that thing is full of electrical panels that are just painted over. I don't know -- I don't remember that going through us, but there seems to be some inconsistencies with what we look at here. Hood: Commissioners, I'm not exactly sure which building. I know there are a couple of buildings, one that actually went through design review and one of our planners got east and west confused, so looked at the front elevation and thought it was facing Meridian Road and, in fact, it was the back of the building. The other one you may be referring to I'm not quite sure the history on it or how it got approved, but -- O'Brien: It's on the same side as this, just a little ways further south and the electrical panels are facing north or are on the north side of the building. Hood: Yeah. I know of at least one out here on Meridian Road, so two wrongs don't make a right. So, I don't know all the reasons, but I think the planning department, I think, let one or two or maybe even more go through the process without being reviewed for consistency with design review. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 39 of 57 O'Brien: The only thing -- the only reason it caught my eye is that it was so massive, there was so much of it on that side of the building.. That's all. Hood: Yeah. O'Brien: I agree with it being an eye sore as part of the corridor. Parsons: I'd also like to add., if you go and look at all the other Sonics throughout the community, most of their seating areas are fronting on a roadway. So, in this particular case this one doesn't, it's on an internal driveway -- public -- private driveway. Newton-Huckabay: Would the applicant like to come forward.. Thompson: Good evening, Madam Chair, Commissioners. My name is Joe Thompson, I am with BRS Architects. I'm representing Boise Food Service. I guess we can start by addressing the concerns that are on the last memorandum -- memorandum that I got from Bill Parsons, dated March 17th, 2008. I'm assuming that these are the outstanding items that staff had. Okay. I guess we could start off with let me describe the area first. He said he wanted you guys to ask me about that. Do we have a little laser pointer here? What we have -- we have about 34,800 square feet of area in this lot. Due to easements, setbacks, you know, the usual stuff you have to run into when you develop a site, we end up with about 19,400 square feet that's usable, which means about 56 percent of that property can be used. And here are the easements. We got something coming along here and we have an easement along here and, then, like this and I believe it jumps over one more time and., then, we have the shared access. And, of course, we have all the property and the setbacks -- the existing setback for the development. And what's happening with this site -- well, first off, we want safety. Okay. We got vehicles that are coming in here. We don't want them to have to come in this way and we really want them coming in here, so we are not kind of looping -- you know, looping back on ourselves. So, what you're doing is doubling up the traffic up here. So, bringing them in this way. And as you know in America we drive with the driver on the left side and the driver is usually the one that accesses the drive-thru window. So, we are bringing them in through here and, then, the loop right on around here and that's -- that's where you are at right there. Now, as far as this island, why we removed it initially was there was a question about fire apparatus accessing it, they need a 20 foot width of clear and something about SSC needing that same access. We talked with Joe Silva down at the fire department. He said -- or he agreed with us that when they come in they can access part of -- within a 150 feet of any part of this building can park their apparatus here, here, or they can come in here if they have to or they can access from here.. And he agreed that they can access all parts of the building. So, he had no constraints on this 20 foot width. So, that brought us back to SSC and we had a dialogue with them and explained our situation, showed the site plan, slowed this width, and he give us an approval letter -- I don't know if you guys have a copy of that, but we do have that stamped and. signed showing that he approved this with a 15 foot right here. Okay. Also, as far as the orientation of the building, know that -- I caught a catch phrase on the previous hearing about new urbanism and Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 40 of 57 that is really the catch phrase in this whole area. You're really seeing it in Boise and Eagle and you guys are having that in Meridian as well. What you got to decide is what's the front of the building, where is the pedestrian coming in, where do you want the -- where do you want to cater to these pedestrians. Well, with this site we have got - - we have got Nampa-Meridian Road -- or not Nampa-Meridian, but Kuna-Meridian Road right here. A high volume of traffic, really uncomfortable, really, to walk next to and that's why we have got the meandering sidewalks and landscaping and such. But for this particular development -- can staff go back to the overall -- right there. That will work. We have got -- as part of this development we had to have a walkway along here and, really, that services this property -- or this area and this area. And this is our property. And what we have decided is with the site constraints we had, the safety as far as the traffic, we felt, well, normally we'd like to face this -- this -- you know, the front onto this road.. Well, let's go ahead and achieve that new urban kind of process and put the seating up here and really cater to the people that are in the development and consider that our front. We agreed with staff that -- can you go back to the -- there we go. We agreed with staff that, yeah, we don't want this there. We saw what was happening down the road, as Commissioner O'Brien brought up, so we went ahead and attempted to make this rear elevation look like the front. We went so far as to take this element and put it in the back. We noticed we had the meters there, so we took the rest of this -- this building material, the plaques and all the ornamentations we had on there and put it on a screen wall there. And, then, on top of that, the canopy that we have here that kind of tended a look of Sonic, we placed that there. So, as far as aperson -- an uninformed person driving along the road here, they are going to see that, they are going to see these features and they are going to look just like what we have up here, minus the seating. These canopies right here, there was a comment brought up that this is really just a box without these canopies. Well, these canopies are part of Sonic, they aren't going to remove those. That is their -- their theme. That is how they work. They have -- it's a car hop, you drive in just like the old retro 'S0s style type of thing. So, as far as a look, the material, all of that is -- they are trying to achieve that. That's what makes them stand out. And I know there was another comment brought about before in staff about trying to make the materials match with the rest of the subdivision. Well, this is not compatible. This is a modern -- more modern looking -- or at least what they considered back in the 'S0s to be a modern type style. And., really, I think it will lend to the area. People recognize Sonic and they know -- know what it is. And, lastly, regarding the hours of operation, this development is 6:00 to 10:00. What Sonic normally has is during the summer months -- that would be between, oh, May and September, they like to run from 6:00 to 12:00, which is a two hour -- two hour increase. A little bit later. But what we are looking at his -- if you could go back to the overall again. We have got this development right here., we have got a commercial here, we have got 200 plus feet before we hit any type of residential. We have a huge buffer, a ditch, trees -- I feel that the smells and the odors, the noise and lights from -- you know, the noise -- or the lighting from the cars coming into this place, they are going to be overshadowed by the traffic that you may have there, because I can guarantee that you can have more traffic here than you have coming into here. Just -- it's just how Meridian Road is. It's become one of the busiest roads in the valley and I can confess -- attest to Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 41 of 57 that, because I used to commute down it. Anyways, that's about all I have and I'll stand for any questions. Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Thompson? Thompson: Uh-huh. Newton-Huckabay: Is this building similar or the same as the Sonic recently built out in Nampa near the Costco development? Is it the same architectural design? Thompson: They should be pretty similar. It's their -- their kind of theme. The metallic type of sheen and, then, the colors they use, yes. Newton-Huckabay: The one in Nampa looks substantially different than the one -- the current Sonic in Meridian and that's what -- I was just curious. It's the same? Thompson: Okay. He's going. to jump in there. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. O'Brien: I have a question, Madam Chair. Mr. Thompson, did you hold any neighborhood meetings regarding this operation with the people that are close in the residential area? Thompson: Yes. Yes. That was a requirement, that within 300 feet, and we had a neighborhood meeting at -- actually, just north of there at the -- one of the buildings in this development. So, we were able to discuss and point -- you know and show where things were going to be. O'Brien: I don't know if -- can comment, but was it relatively positive? Thompson: Well, there was a few people there and it's -- it was pretty much the usual that you run into when you have a commercial development near a neighborhood. They are worried about noise., lights, smells. And, really, the location we are at, the noise and the lights are going to be no different than what you have on the -- you know, the Nampa-Meridian Road and the distance that we have -- we have another commercial property right in between another private road and, then, we have this -- this project. So, really, .it's not going to be that intrusive. OBrien: Thank you. I have no further -- Marshall: Madam Chair, I do have a question. So, the reason for not turning this 180 is because you want to face in? Thompson: No. That was more of a compromise. We would have liked to, you know, had it face the normal way. I mean we wanted to appease staff and Meridian -- the City Meridian Planning 8 Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 42 of 57 of Meridian, but it really came down to the size of the site, the traffic flow, and how a drive-thru works, you know, where you're on the left side and how you approach a building. And with easements we had in place to try and flip that around, it would have seriously -- it would not have worked. At least the site plans we ran through with it, trying to keep a similar number of stalls., the same accesses, the shared easement and even so far as this easement here helps -- as a shared access, helps widen -- effectively widen the site and, then, the least amount of easement was right in this area right here where it kind of widened as we came through here. Marshall: So, you're saying that you can't shift the building back this way, placing the seating at this end and just flip it within this box, placing the drive-thru on the side. If that makes any sense. Thompson: Yeah. We would have had to move this -- these canopies over to here -- I'm trying to think how it would work. I mean we have got it drawn up, we just could not get it to work. Marshall: Okay. O'Brien: Just one other question, Madam Chair. Newton-Huckabay: Uh-huh. O'Brien.,: So, the people coming in from -- or heading north on Meridian Road., they want to have a sandwich, so they access the road -- I don't remember what the name of the road was. This here. And they come in here, so is there another road? I don't remember the other access to go back on Meridian Road they have to go back out -- Thompson: We have an office -- a little area right here. This is shared access with their parking area. You come out through here, you can either go this way, come back out here or you can go all the way down -- there is another road down here. Or you can take this on up and it kind of curves back over to Overland. O'Brien: I remember that part. Okay. Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. We will take public testimony now. Thanks. Thompson: Thank you. Parsons: Madam Chair? Newton-Huckabay: Yes, sir. Parsons: One thing I failed to mention, too. Staff did get a letter of opposition regarding the project. I failed to mention that. It was from a Blaine and Mary Jane Bennett in opposition of the project. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 43 of 57 Newton-H uckabay: Okay. Parsons: You should have that in your packet. Newton-Huckabay: I had two or three of them in -- in here, I believe, so -- the two people I have to testify both are in favor of the project. Is there anyone in the audience who is against or neutral that would like to testify first? Okay. Skip Hofferber. Hofferber: Madam Chairman and Commissioners. I'm Skip Hofferber, I'm the president of Boise Food Service. P.O. Box 8986, Boise, Idaho. And we do have -- I think there was a couple things -- Mr. Parsons said -- I think this is our fifth store that does not set perpendicular to the street. Our Caldwell store, the one under construction in Nampa, this one, and the Treasure Valley Store at Costco, the one you spoke of. They all are addressing what you're saying the metallic or look or whatever, it's called Nechia board. It's a concrete board. All the stores were required by corporate to redo every seven to eight years. We will have to go back now and retro fit all of our stores that are currently built. Like Overland store, the oldest one, is just seven years old. That's due this year. So, they will all, then, have that same continuity and look. We did try to -- we had the building 180, it just does not fit with the drive-thru. It becomes unsafe with the drive-thru on the other side, because the canopies do not fit on this side, as you can tell adjacent to the property. The -- Billy Ray and his office I know have tried two or three things. He got where the canopies -- we need X number of stalls to get cars there. It's not -- you know, it's not -- you know, you can't get down to where you only got eight stalls and be able to, you know, pay for the property, pay for the business, and so we needed -- I think there is a total of 17 order taking stations that we have. The -- trying to think of the other things that we were addressing.. The back -- when we changed the building and put the canopies and everything on the back -- if you could back up to that one -- the -- or go forward., whichever. Not that one, the newer one of that. Yeah. There you go. We did -- we added the wall and hid all the panels and did all that and had the poster boards, which are illuminated on the same and that drive-thru canopy is what that is, that piece at the -- if you look at the very bottom at the back. O`Brien: You have a pointer there, sir. Hofferber: Pardon me? O'Brien: Could you use the pointer there, please. Hofferber: Okay. Yeah. This is what they call -- it's, actually, adrive-thru canopy and we show a side view of it here. Which kind of matches the arch -- the ones of these. This canopy and the structure -- I don't -- there is just -- I mean it's massive steel. It's got three panels that fit over the top of it and there is not enough room to add one of those at the front and the back. We did add this at both the front and the back, because this is just what's usually at the front of the building. So, we have -- you know, trying to get that continuity, so the building does look like it's the front of the building. There is -- Meridian Planning 8 Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 44 of 57 the seating, you know, as far as being at the front of the road -- I mean the corridor. know it's a corridor. If you go -- you're looking at the back of KFC and A&W. I mean that's -- I mean talk about corridor into your city, you're looking at their trash receptacle and everything right at the main entrance into the city. So, we have tried to address those issues with the canopies and everything that they have added and hide the equipment on top with this extra parapet. It is -- it's a retrofit 'S0s. It's a diner. It's the old car hop. We have car hops. We deliver. It's that -- I know the developer is going to speak this evening regarding not everything is supposed to be the same in his development. It was never, you know, designed for that. We have -- I tried to meet all the requirements and everything.. I think we have done a pretty good job and I'd like to see approval. We do have -- and with the noise level, too, we are 200 feet away. We are also in Meridian at 2160 East Fairview. We are 100 feet from the residence there and there is no buildings that protrude from the back of our building -- you know, Norco's off to the side. And there is going to be a building back behind us as a buffer between us and the -- and the residents. So, noise is not a factor. We have never had any complaints at that site and the smells and everything -- I mean you're -- you know, you're 200 feet -- and also the drive-thru is at the back where it will be even less noise, because that's where the speaker's at, you know, and it's facing, actually, the road. So, the noise level at night. We are limited hours at the Meridian store. 6:00 to midnight and that's just during the summertime and we are normally closed at 10:00 during the winter, meaning, you know, October 1st on through. So, it's limited hours. As opposed to a lot of them up and down there, Taco Bell and all them, 2:00, 3:00 o'clock in the morning, McDonald's, 2:00 or 3:00, you know. But we have to be somewhat competitive, that's why we would request those hours from 6:00 to midnight. So, that's all I have. Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Thank you. Lawrence Ross. Ross: Madam Chair Person, People of the Commission, my name is Lawrence Ross. I reside at 1684 East Braemere in Boise. I am the developer and an adjacent property owner and I might just pass this around.. I have got copies here for everybody, too., but -- Newton-Huckabay: You'll need to send in one for the record, Mr. Ross. Ross: What I kind of distributed there is just, basically, our marketing information, as well as what we kind of used when we went through and got city approval for Southern Springs. Southern Springs is a little bit different property. We have got a creek that kind of runs through it and limited access being on the state highway. So, we, basically, put three parcels together. There was a question earlier addressing how we access the property. We, basically, have an access at Calderwood. Then, we have, basically, a center -- a center through road that runs through here, crosses over, and comes back out to -- comes back out to Overland and we have a full access, basically, right in the middle of the property. And the Sonic that is looking at going on is just immediately adjacent to that. And a lot of the -- it seems like a lot of the interest in the project has been just basically -- can we just kind of see the site plan again, please. Has been -- Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 45 of 57 the orientation of their building and I can just tell you from developing -- I own the Schuck's that's on the corner and I own the 15,000 square feet of retail that's just to the north of this, which is the Southern Springs retail buildings where Moxie Java and Wheat Montana and -- we have got it about 90 percent leased. But the difficulty we have had in just developing these properties with the rear access and all the frontage views towards the street has been -- it's been tough where ever we have done it. And just -- I think if you want the new urbanism -- and specifically on these two sites, we really don't want to have any access points off of the access road as far as where they pull in off the highway, because we want to get traffic off the road., so we don't have any congestion issues here. We didn't put a curb cut in and they didn't put a curb cut in. So, you're really rear loading and so you have got to be able to get all the way around -- get all the way around the building in order to make them work and that's why I think what they have done is -- works well, because you keep the -- you know, the patio away from the traffic almost so you're not just sitting there watching cars drive by and as a parent and eating outside, I'd prefer to eat here, as opposed to right here next to a -- you know, 40,000 cars a day on Meridian-Kung highway. A couple other points I was wanting to make. I'm not sure on where they got our hours for restrictions on drive- thrus. On a retail building that we did up here to the north, we actually -- it's a spec retail building, there is two buildings there., 15.,000 square feet, as I said.. We have got -- we had three drive-fhrus approved on it. Didn't have any uses. Basically went through the approval process, and out of those three drive-thrus we are actually using two of them -- or, excuse me, using one of them. Moxie Java is the only drive-thru that we ended up using and all the other spaces are rented. We have a Wheat Montana on one end, so we are going to make some conversions on the drive-thru into an outside dining patio. And on the other end we just leased it to adry-cleaning company that, basically, has a -- it's -- I guess it is a drive-in, but they park, get out of their car, go to a computerized thing to either deliver their laundry or pick it up. It also has kind of a curb side service, but -- so, you know, there is limited drive-thrus in the area as well. But I think the only way they have got a restriction on our drive-thrus is what was imposed on that retail area. And I didn't have any objections to 6:00 to 10:00 p.m. in a strip retail center. You know, most of our businesses are done by 7:00 or 8.:00 o'clock anyway. Maybe 9:00 o'clock with alater -- you know, later drive-in. And I have no objections as a developer adjacent property owner with them having, you know, extended hours during summer. And., then, just maybe talk a little bit about maybe where there is nobody here complaining about anything. When we went through Southern Springs, we, basically, sat and talked to all the neighbors that live -- could I get the other one, please. We had like three or four meetings with all the neighbors that live back in here. A few people from Meridian Greens. Just about how we were going to handle the noise and this piece right here was always zoned commercial. We actually purchased this parcel, tied it in, rezoned it to commercial and, then, we have some office and commercial here on another parcel. And I don't know if anybody was on P&Z at the time, but, you know, we as developers kind of -- I think came in with a good enough concept, had more of a difficult time, maybe, appeasing, you know, the bike path and the fencing, the screening that we put in there. Trees and everything. The neighbors objected more to the bike path we had to put in than they did the commercial use. We have got a six foot fence that runs along here. We have got a 50 foot easement with Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 46 of 57 Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District and this whole thing was just a quagmire of bureaucracy, for lack of a better rule, a better word with Nampa-Meridian wanting a fence here, neighbors wanting it here. City wanting it here. Where is the green belt. But we were able to work through everything and so, basically, there is -- there is a considerable amount of screening along that -- along that ditch and we have got two of the lots that are in there, too, and you can see it a little bit better on that -- that thing I passed out. But there is an incredible screening here between neighbors and what they are doing, so that probably said more in light of extending the hours to midnight. And that's all I have. Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Thank, Mr. Ross. Discussion or shall we close the Public Hearing? Marshall: I would like -- Madam Chair, I would like to ask staff about the hours, if they could refresh me again -- I remember reading it, I'm just trying to recall it all -- the concern about limiting the hours to 10:00 o'clock. Parsons: Yeah.. Madam Chair Person, Commissioner Marshall, basically, I looked at the previous approvals on the site and this Commission -- not this Commission, but the Planning Commission had limited the hours of operations on the building site that he was talking about on the previous approvals for the drive-thrus to 6:00 to 10:00, so -- and,, basically, basing those reasons on trying to appease the neighbors, keep noise down, keep fumes, keep odors away from the adjacent residential uses and so staff just stuck with that recommendation to just stick with those hours of operation, because it was what you guys previously acted on in the past. Marshall: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Marshall, do you have any other comment? Marshall: We can move to close the Public Hearing. O'Brien: I have a question for staff, Madam Mayor. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. O'Brien: So, I -- again, I have a question about the hours. I don't have a problem with -- with having these type of establishments, especially where it's being built, to have what they call summer hours. I think it's pretty consistent throughout that whole corridor with all the other fast food restaurants that are in that area, especially on the north side of the freeway. So, I don't know -- I have a -- some concerns about that, so you read that - - you saw that this was consistent with our recommendations -- or the zoning recommendations to have hours 6:00 to 10:00 -- Newton-Huckabay: Bill, can I address that? Parsons: Sure. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 47 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: Commissioner O'Brien, having been a party in many of the discussions over the years about operating hours from 6:00 to 10:00, over the last four to five years or so we have a lot of developments coming in and they are coming into predominately residential area in a western ethos, if you will, where we don't think of where we live as being urban. One of our theories was that. if we could limit the operations, the hours of operation, it would give a lot of these homeowners more of a neighborhood residential feel to -- to their business. One of the problems that you have on that is you start to limit hours you're looking for consistency and consistency in one place may not apply consistently in another place and I think we have issues of it proverbially coming back to bite you, if you will. O'Brien: That answers it as -- Newton-Huckabay: So, I -- and on that note, I mean I'm not one to want to restrict -- restrict someone from making a living., so to speak, and I have also known that -- seen that City Council is more often to overturn those restrictions of late than they are to support them. So, with that said., I don't have a problem with the hours of operation that the applicant is proposing on this -- on this site. So, I think I'd feel comfortable if the three of us at least going with the -- I wrote it down here. 6:00 to 11:00 Monday through Thursday, 6:00 to 12:00 Friday through Saturday, with the understanding they are going to have winter hours. You're certainly not going to stay open if you don't have customers to come and purchase your stuff. So, I'm okay with -- but that is some of the method behind the madness is it was efforts over the years to try to help ease the invasion of commercial into residential -- predominately residential areas and an effort to remain consistent as a Commission. So, does that answer your question? O'Brien: Yes. So, just to clarify, that's 6:00 to 11:00 on Fridays? Newton-Huckabay: The applicant was proposing 6:00 to 11:00 Monday through Thursday and 6:00 to 12:00 Friday through Sunday. O'Brien; Friday through Sunday, 6:00 to 12:00? And you say that the -- Newton-Huckabay: Sunday through Thursday 6:00 to 11:00. Friday and Saturday 6:00 to 12:00. I'm clarifying a comment from Mr. Hofferber in the audience. Does that answer all your questions? O'Brien.:. Sunday through Thursday 6:00 to 11:00, 6:00 to 12:00 Friday and Saturday. Okay. Yes. We can close the Public Hearing? Madam Chairman, I move to close the Public Hearing CUP 08-002. Marshall: Second.. Newton-Huckabay: All those in favor? Opposed? Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 48 of 57 MOTION CARRfED: THREE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Newton-Huckabay: Comments? Discussion? Marshall: Well, Ithink -- personally I think the only issue really left -- and I'm still hashing through in my mind, because I -- I can see both arguments here and what I'm really juggling here is -- is this an appropriate frontage to Meridian Road. I fully understand -- I like the idea of having the seating back here. I like the idea of fronting to this road, but I also understand that we want to put on a good face in a major entryway to the city and for a building to turn its back to that area, I mean in -- in another situation, yeah, I'd find it easy to say, yes, face the smaller road. But this is a major entryway to the city and I am -- yeah, I got to admit I -- I understand staffs argument that it would be nice to see a more inviting face and I appreciate what the client has done in trying to dress up the back of the building, because it is the back of the building that is facing Meridian Road. Ithink I'm starting to understand some of the issues as to turning it, so I still think I want to turn it, but I -- I want to put fronts on it is what I want to do. Newton-Huckabay: You don't think that the -- the two -- they are called the -- the architectural feature that's on the front that's been added to the back and the top of the building like an archway that's been added to the front and the back, as well as the canopy -- what other changes would you make to the back to make it look more like a front? Rather than putting seating. Marshall: Madam Chair, Iwould -- I appreciate that this is attempting to be the big arch, that it's creating a modulation in facade that -- you can see a significant difference in the facade here with this canopy as it sticks out over -- it creates a very different -- a change of -- a change in the elevation, the eyes drawn to at least its -- and I find this significantly more inviting and attractive than this. Now, that being said, you're typically going to have a whole bunch of cars here, too, lining up across here. At least we hope they are that busy. You know, business is good, but -- and I do appreciate that this is trying to help shield some of that from the back, that we have some screening back here. But, again, I -- Newton-Huckabay: My opinion of -- when I read this staff report and looked at the recommendations from the city staff, looked at the site plan, I was in agreement that the building needed to be flipped around. The applicant's done a pretty good job of convincing me that maybe that's not the best way to go. Ithink the only thing that the back is missing in my mind would be signage that made it look like a front. The canopy on the front, yes, you can say it looks like a canopy on a front, but I mean it's a canopy, nonetheless. You can put a canopy on the back porch. So, these new Sonics -- I don't know you guys -- I have seen the one that's over in Nampa. It doesn't front the road over there either and it doesn't look hideous. They are somewhat of a garish building with all the bright colors and stuff, but they are -- but it's a theme building and -- Marshall: Madam Chair, I cannot speak to that. I have not seen the -- Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 49 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: The only thing Ithink -- I think if you put some signage on the back of the building to make it look like the front of the building, I think the parapet or the modulation on the back adds a lot. Possibly moving the -- I'm not exactly sure where the drive-thru message menu board is. Putting it off to one side or the other, rather than just perpendicular on the back might make it a little -- a little less like the front. I'm sorry, sir, you can't testify again, Sorry. But I got it. Okay. We clarified the location of the drive-thru boards. Thank you. So, like I say, I, myself, am leaning towards -- with it as is -- I mean I think one thing that would have helped me substantially and would recommend this to before City Council, is a color rendering of what the back of this building is going to look like. Baird: Madam Chair, as a reminder, your decision could be final tonight. This is a CUP. Newton-Huckabay: We are doing a CUP. Baird: Unless it's appealed to Council. Newton-Huckabay: Thank you for that reminder, because it had gone over my head. Baird.: Perhaps if they have one with them we could reopen the hearing. No? O'Brien: Madam Chair, I have a couple comments. Newton-Huckabay: Yes, sir. O'Brien: So, I think it's -- if I remember -- I drive by that area, watch the growth quite frequently -- is that probably half the buildings along that strip there on the east side of Meridian Road face the other way. Face backwards. Schuck's is one of them that you enter from the back side and some dentist offices. I have seen some other ones. They are all entered from the back side of the road. So, it's not uncommon. There is like a little strip mall further on down that they have stores in the front, but something Wheat -- forget the name of the pastry place and a martinizing center. So, I don't have a problem with the way it's facing now, but I do agree with you that I think we should have some kind of frontage there that would make it more inviting and hide some of the issues we have talked about tonight. That's about the only change I would make or recommend. Newton-Huckabay: Uh-huh. I don't think the applicant's going to like what I have to say, but having just -- thank you, Mr. Baird, for jelling that in my mind, because I was losing that. I'd like to see a color rendering of the back of this building before I approve it. O'Brien: I would agree. Newton-Huckabay: So, I'd like to continue this hearing to our next meeting -- Meridian Planning 8 zoning March 20, 2008 Page 50 of 57 Hood: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, just kind of a heads up for you. You actually have no items on the next agenda item, so we could have that meeting just solely for this or you get a night off. So, if you can -- I'm not -- I'm not trying to sway you to wade through it tonight if you're not up for that, but just as an FYI, be aware of what you're doing if you do continue it for two weeks is all I guess I'm trying to say. Newton-Huckabay: Right. I guess I -- like I said, it just for some reason was escaping me that this -- that this was a CUP and I can envision it somewhat and I can probably be swayed, say, you know, I'm totally happy with it not fronting on Meridian Road, if could get a better idea of what it really truly is going to look like. If I -- and I -- so, I'm really not comfortable making that final -- that final decision without a better idea of what it's going to -- really what it's going to look like. Architectural drawings like this are hard to make design decisions off of for lay people like me. O'Brien: What does April 17th look like? Newton-Huckabay: We have a request for a zoning ordinance text amendment. I have not -- well, I -- are either of you -- what are you leaning towards? O'Brien: I agree with what you're saying.. I think I would like to have a rendition of what that frontage or back-age or whatever you want to call it, what it would look like. I just don't want to take -- I don't want to take a chance on seeing something happen what I have seen recently about all that electrical panel just sitting there against the side of a building as you drive by. And so I'd like to see how well hidden this is going to be, what it's going to look like, and make it look nice, especially it's an entrance to the city. I agree with -- I firmly believe that these are the opportunities that we need to take advantage of to make sure that that happens. Newton-Huckabay: Bill -- we closed the Public Hearing, didn't we? Never mind. Mr. Marshall? Marshall: My thoughts? Newton-Huckabay: Yes. Marshall: We have closed the Public Hearing and I'm offering my thoughts. I think I can visualize pretty well what it looks like. I'm still wavering on approval because of that -- I think it's come a long way. I don't know the other buildings along there. I'm only looking at this and this alone, because I don't know the other buildings on that there. I do know that that is a major entryway to the city and I do want this to be attractive, not only from the front, which I think is appropriate to face in the small street, but I also want it to be very attractive from Meridian and I'm -- I'm really bouncing on approval on it. I think they have made some significant improvements relative to what it was, but I really like to see a little more facade modulation, but, then, again, I don't know what else you can do to take that extra step.. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 51 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Mr. Baird. Baird: Madam Chair. Newton-Huckabay: We had a hearing not too long ago where we made a recommendations on a CUP for approval based on some criteria being met when we came back and it was on a Consent Agenda to be -- to final approve the CUP. Do you recall that where -- Baird: Madam Chair, I do not. But I think when you're talking about reviewing avisual = - if you do reopen the hearing and continue this for that, you're going to want an opportunity to have that presented to you and to deliberate on the record, rather than just having it on a Consent Agenda, if that's the way you're going. Perhaps planning staff has some comment on that particular -- Newton-Huckabay: Because if we were in disagreement with it, we could remove it from the Consent Agenda, couldn't we? Baird: Well, I'm just not seeing how we can continue a hearing and finish it and make a decision on a Consent Agenda.. Or you conclude the hearing., keep it closed, make your decision -- it just doesn't seem to fit in any of the boxes that I'm thinking. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Well, I guess what I was thinking is we potentially -- my only caveat here with this is I'm okay with the hour change. I'm okay with the position of the building provided that the changes that they are proposing to the back of the building, if could actually see a rendering of what it would look like, looks like the front of the building like they say it would. if we could do a motion to approve a CUP based on receiving the color rendering and having them meet our expectation. Hood: Madam Chair, Commissioners -- Newton-Huckabay: Somebody stop me. Hood.: Well, something I guess we could propose that we haven't done in awhile, what we can actually do is just prepare the findings for approval as if you're going to approve whatever elevation they show us for that. Still leave the hearing open and still not final action, but as soon as -- as soon as and if you say go, we have got the document ready, they don't have to come back in two more weeks for their findings. They are done. So, they'd have to wait two weeks from tonight anyways for their findings document to be approved. You can essentially put all that, but, really, you do have to continue your -- your decision until that time. But, again, we have the findings there assuming that you're going to approve those. And if you don't we yank the findings off the agenda, you comment some more, and tell them what you want it to look like and, then, we bring it back in another two weeks, but -- Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 52 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: That's -- okay. That's what we did the last time. I would be completely comfortable with that -- okay. Ahead nod whether or not the applicant would be. Okay. How about the two of you? Marshall: That's fine with me. O'Brien: Agree. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. The only -- the hearing date would be April 17th that we would continue this to. Hood: And, Madam Chair, I -- you know, Iwasn't -- you have a meeting on the 3rd of April anyways. You know -- Newton-Huckabay: Oh, I just thought you said we didn't. Hood: There is no items on it. We have another meeting -- a special meeting before that. So, it would be the only real reason to have your regularly scheduled 7:00 p.m. meeting slash hearing, but you're going to be around, so making them wait a month to me doesn't seem so fair. But that's up to you. I just want to let you know it's not like you totally get the night off anyways, you will be in the neighborhood. Newton-Huckabay: That's the off-site deal; right? Hood: Correct. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. So, then, we would have to come back here to the City Hall -- Hood:: We could -- I could even talk with the clerk and maybe the applicant and see if they want to meet us there or something, but -- Newton-Huckabay: Well., I don't want to create havoc in that. Is that okay with you guys to come back here and take the ten minutes, finish this hearing on the 3rd? O'Brien: That's fine with me. I'm out and about. Marshall: I can do that. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Well, we are speaking for Commissioner Moe and Commissioner Rohm on that, but -- Marshall: They can do that, too. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. I guess we are ready for a motion. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 53 of 57 O'Brien: Motion to continue? Baird: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, you actually, technically, need to reopen the hearing and, then, make a motion to continue it. So, two motions are in order. Newton-Huckabay: So, reopen and continue with the -- continue and, then, you need to verbalize the hours issue., the back of the building, that we are looking for a colored elevation. O'Brien: Okay. I'll give it a wheel. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. O'Brien: So, Madam Chair, I'd like to reopen the hearing on CUP 08-002.. Marshall: I second.. Newton-Huckabay: All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWO ABSENT. O'Brien: So, just to clarify, there is two things that I think we need to put in the motion and that's the hours, but what month would they change? May 1st to October 1st? Newton-Huckabay: I don't think that -- I don't know that we want to put that kind of restriction a month. O'Brien: Just say summer hours? Baird: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, what you're actually doing is setting the maximum hours and, then, the operator would vacillate depending on the market conditions, probably. O'Brien: Okay. Marshall: So, the hours would, then, be Monday through Thursday until 11:00 p.m. -- or Monday -- yeah. Sunday through Thursday. Sunday through Thursday until 11:00 p.m. and, then, Friday and Saturday until 12:00. O`Brien: And the other -- the other thing is to -- how do we say it? Have the signage up front or some change --design change? Marshall: No. Color rendering.. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 54 of 57 Newton-Huckabay: We'd like an elevation showing what the building would look like from the rear, looking at it from Meridian Road.. O'Brien: Okay. Madam Chair -- Newton-Huckabay: Do we have to change the condition of approval, then, or strike one? Parsons: Yes. Madam Chairman, basically, we are looking -- you have already taken care of one, which was condition 1.6 as far as hours of operation. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Parsons: And, then, we are looking to modify condition 1.1 and 1.2 as well, because the -- we need it in the motion that if you're okay with this site plan that they have submitted and these elevations that -- that they are approved with the CUP. That way when we do the findings everything -- all the conditions of approval are in order. Newton-Huckabay: Did you catch that? O'Brien: I didn't get the numbers. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. If you look at page 15 on your -- O'Brien: Staff report? Newton-Huckabay: On your staff report. Starts with B, conditions of approval. O'Brien: Okay. Newton-Huckabay: Conditions 1.1 and 1.2. O'Brien: Okay. Newton-Huckabay: You would strike 1.1. O'Brien: Okay. Newton-Huckabay: And 1.2. Hood: Actually, Madam Chair, maker of the motion, it would probably be easier for us to just reference the new site plan and elevations. That way we have some reference in the future of what -- what's approved rather than just straight striking through them. Newton-Huckabay: You got ahead of me. I was just going to say we need to rephrase it. Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 55 of 57 O`Brien: I would reference the new site design; is that what you're saying? Hood: We will reference any site plan dates and design, yes. Marshall: Site plan dated -- Hood.: And if you don't have those handy, we have them and we can fill in those gaps. We need you to get -- get to the meat of that and we can fill in the holes if there are any. You don't need to look for those dates at this time. O'Brien: So, I don't need to strike anything; is that what you're saying? Hood: You can tell us intent and we can write the condition for you. If you look at the findings and you're like that's not what I meant, we can change it at that point. But think we are -- we understand where you're coming from. So, if you can just piece it together we will piece it rest of the way together. Marshall: The most recent site plan.. O'Brien: Okay. I will give it a wheel. Madam Chair -- this is a continuance; right? Newton-Huckabay: Uh-huh.. O'Brien: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to continue file number CUP 08-002 to the hearing date of April the 3rd., 2008, for the following reasons: We would like to have the applicant provide a site plan showing the improved rendering of the back of the building, which -- adjacent to Meridian Road. Marshall: Believe that would be elevation plan.. O'Brien: Elevation plan. Marshall: Color elevation plan. O'Brien: Okay. Color elevation plan. And just for the record., we can strike out, then, on the conditions B of approval the 1.1 and 1.2 of the staff report. Marshall: I don't believe we are striking those out completely. We are changing the site plan to date of most recent site plan, as opposed to the February 6 site plan. O'Brien: End of motion. Newton-Huckabay: Did you catch the hours? Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 56 of 57 O'Brien: Oh. Back up here. Not end of motion. Also that we would change the hours to be Sunday through Thursday from 6:00 to 11:.00 and Fridays from 6:00 to midnight. Marshall.: And Saturday. O'Brien: Uh? Marshall: Saturdays also. O'Brien: Saturdays. Fridays and Saturdays. Sorry. End of motion. Marshall: I second.. I didn't realize we were striking out 1.1 and 1.2, but -- O'Brien: I referenced -- okay. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. All those in favor? Opposed? Motion carried,. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWD ABSENT. Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Hood: And just to kind of piggy back that, we talked about it, but we are going to put the findings on, too. Can I get maybe even a separate motion to have the findings be put on that same agenda for ratification. If that could be a separate motion, I think that makes some sense out of the ordinary, so -- Newton-Huckabay: Can I -- can I make that motion? Baird.: You bet. Hood.: I don't see why not. Madam Chair, would you make that motion in my behalf. Newton-Huckabay: I'd like to make a motion that the facts and findings and conclusions be included on the agenda for CUP 08-002, with the intention that if the -- the site elevations meet the expectation of the Commission, that they will be signed and approved at that time. End of motion. Marshall: Madam Chair, that's exactly the motion I wanted to make. Commissioner O'Brien to second it. O'Brien: Second. Newton-Huckabay: All those in favor? Meridian Planning & Zoning March 20, 2008 Page 57 of 57 MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Newton-Huckabay: Before we -- shall I adjourn first? I'd like to adjourn -- or like a motion for us to adjourn. Marshall: I'd like to make a motion to adjourn. O`Brien: Okay. Yes. Newton-Huckabay: All those in favor. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Newton-Huckabay: Thank you. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:06 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) APPROVED WENDY NEWTON-HUCKABAY- VICE-CHAIR ATTEST: DATE APPROVED JAYCEE HOLMAN, CITY CLERK