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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMarch 4, 2008 C/C MinutesMeridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 14 of 52 MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. De Weerd: Okay. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I move that we approve Item 12, SHP 08-002 with all staff and applicant comments. Bird: Second. De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to approve Item 12. Any discussion? Seeing none, Madam Clerk. Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea.; Borton, yea. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 13: Public Hearing: RZ 07-021 Request for a Rezone of 27.89 acres from R- 4 to C-N (2.75 acres) and L-O (25.14 acres) for the property located on the southeast corner of North Locust Grove Road and East Leigh Field Drive for Education Campus Commercial by Joint School District No. 2 - Southeast Corner of North Locust Grove Road and East Leigh Field Drive: Item 14: Public Hearing: PP 07-025 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 7 commercial building lots on 25.87 acres in proposed L-O and C-N zones for Education Campus Commercial by Joint School District No. 2 - Southeast Corner of North Locust Grove Road and East Leigh Field Drive: Item 15; Public Hearing.: MI 08-002 Request for a Miscellaneous application to modify the existing Development Agreement for Education Campus Commercial by Joint School District No. 2 -Southeast Corner of North Locust Grove Road and East Leigh Field Drive: De Weerd.: Thank you. Items 13, 14 and 15 are Public Hearings on RZ 07-021, PP 07- 025, and MI 08-002. I will open these three public hearings with staff comments. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of Council, this is the Education Campus Commercial project. It's located at the southeast corner of North Locust Grove Road Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 15 of 52 and Leigh Field Drive, which is about approximately a half mile north of Ustick Road.. The applications before you tonight are for a rezone of 27.89 acres from R-4 to C-N and that would be for 2.75 acres. And L-O for 25.14 acres. And also a preliminary plat of seven commercial building lots on 25.87 acres in the proposed C-N and L-O zones. You will recognize the site as housing an elementary school and the technical school. forget the name of it. I apologize. De Weerd: Charter school. Canning: Charter school. Thank you. This is the preliminary plat. The application is also requesting a development agreement modification to remove the restriction for education type uses only on the site. The original DA with the R-4 zoning specifically said that it could not be housing and that it should be educational facilities. The applicant has not provided elevations with the DA modification application, therefore, staff is recommending the following: All future buildings on the site shall comply with design standards pertaining to architecture, color and materials, and parking lots. Additionally, a five foot minimum sidewalk shall be provided from the sidewalk along Locust Grove to the main building entrance of all structures on lots that abut Locust Grove. And the applicant actually has some wording changes to this, so I won't read the full text. I`m going to put it up on the screen in a moment, but, essentially, what staff is recommending is that we just use the UDC requirements for entryway corridor design standards that apply to this site, with some minor modifications. The Commission recommended approval at their January 17th, 2008, Public Hearing. Shari Stiles from Engineering Solutions spoke on behalf of the applicant and Wendell Bigham also spoke as the applicant. No one spoke in opposition.. John Courtwright commented on the application and there was no written testimony. Key issues of discussion by the Commission actually related to the Comprehensive Plan designation, which is public/quasi-public. What our Comprehensive Plan says is that upon redevelopment of those sites that the Commission should consider the surrounding area and what the appropriate uses would be based on the intensity of the traffic currently using the site. So, the Commission recommended that the proposed zoning is appropriate for the property and complies with the public/quasi-public land use designation for the following reasons: One, a large portion of the site is utilized by the school district and that's 20 plus acres and only a small portion may be sold off and redeveloped, about six acres. The primary use of the property as an education campus complies with the public/quasi- public land use designation. Two, the education institutions are principal permitted uses in the proposed districts. Three, the property is located on Locust Grove Road, an arterial street, at the half mile, which is generally a good location for commercial businesses. And, four, light office slash commercial uses would be compatible with the existing education campus and commercial office uses across the street on the west side of Locust Grove. The key Commission changes to staff recommendation -- they did remove a couple of Public Works conditions pertaining to a 20 foot wide common lot for water-sewer mains outside the public right of way and also one pertaining to existing Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 16 of 52 structures being removed prior to signature of the final plat. As I mentioned before, the applicant is asking for some word changes with regard to the development agreement. Those proposed changes are in underline and strike out here. So, they are asking for design standards in effect at the time of the application for building permits. They did ask that we remove the requirement for the sidewalk to extend to Locust Grove, because there is an established berm there already. And that sidewalk would go out to either the private street or Leigh Field Way, be reviewed at the time of certificate of zoning compliance for each building lot. And they also ask that striping be allowed to distinguish vehicular driving surfaces from pedestrian pathways, in addition to pavers, colored or scored concrete, or bricks. And with that I will answer any questions that Council may have. De Weerd': Anna, I guess I do have something. It seems that the most recent application that came in this corridor -- there was some concern that we had too much in this area and we weren't allowing the neighborhood center to fully work. Has that concern changed? Is that no longer an issue or a concern with staff? Canning: Madam Mayor, I`m not quite sure which application you're talking about. De Weerd: I think it was across the street more south of this property as a house on that area tried to redevelop. It wasn't necessarily zoned for commercial or a light office use, but it was approved and since we did learn today that in that neighborhood center, in the phase two aspect, there is an 80 percent vacancy rate. Are we putting too much in that area and since it has been stated as a concern in prior applications, does it apply now, too? Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, the neighborhood center designation does kind of straddle the north end of the property, so it would come about like this. You do have office uses approved here, as well as a little further south along Locust Grove. We have yet to see much residential develop, although we have had -- Alexandria is in here somewhere. De Weerd: Yeah. Just north of there. Canning: I believe it's -- it is north of this property. So, there has been some question about whether we are getting the density of the residential or if we are just getting too much office. The comments that you heard at a presentation earlier today was that this project does have competition from this. In general we have heard of concerns about having too much small lot office. I think that the applicant is actually proposing C-N zoning, which would allow retail as -- on the lots that are remaining. The L-O mostly accommodates the existing schools and, then, you have got one L-O lot here.. This would be C-N and this would be L-O. So, there is some retail proposed at the very corner. When we heard the vacancy rate earlier today -- actually, my first thought was Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 17 of 52 that it might be appropriate to go back to the developer and see if they need to ask for some retail opportunities within that first row, because I think that that's .part of the problem is the office is overbuilt, but perhaps not the retail. De Weerd: Since this kind of was one of our first neighborhood center attempts, that's what drove that question and some of the discussion in previous applications about how much we are putting in that area for -- for primarily office. So, just wondered if that had been a discussion at the Planning and Zoning Commission. Canning: I'm not sure that it was, Madam Mayor. De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions for staff? Bird: I have none. Rountree: I have none. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: Would you go to the plat for a moment, please? And with the arrow or cursor or something, would you outline the seven lots? What I'm most concerned about is whether or not that parking lot is going to become a separate lot or not. And I was not able to tell from the small display on my screen. Canning: Madam Mayor? Zaremba: Just where the seven lots actually are. Canning: Madam Mayor, Councilmember Zaremba, I would prefer if the applicant could do that for you, because I was a little iffy on a couple of the lots myself. Zaremba: Okay. De Weerd: Thank you. Zaremba: That was going to be my second choice.. De Weerd: Is the applicant .here this evening? If you will, please, state your name and address for the record. Stiles: Shari Stiles. Engineering Solutions, 1029 North Rosario Street in Meridian. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 18 of 52 Canning: Thank you. Stiles: Thank you, Madam Mayor and Council. The lots are -- this parking lot goes with lot -- this lot right here. There is one, two, three, four, five, six and seven. And most likely the school will retain ownership of these -- or at least the Charter school. And if you believed that there is too much L-O, I'm sure they would be more than willing to make all of that C-N there, so -- they just felt that it would be most compatible with the neighborhood and not a lot of traffic generation, being mindful of the fact that the elementary school is there. As far as having too much office, as the market demands more office, obviously, if these are not going to sell, nobody's going to want to buy them for office if there is no market for them and you might see us back here again asking for some kind of a commercial designation. As Anna said, there is a -- Zaremba: Madam Mayor. Do that one more time if you would., just one, two, three, four, five., six seven. Stiles: Okay. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Zaremba: Yeah. Thank you. Stiles: Staff has asked for a private street application, which we will be coming in for. We would like to extend it fully out to the elementary -- where the elementary school is. There is currently a curb cut there. So, we will be coming in at a later time with that private street application. One thing Anna said I was a little concerned about, because the first time I heard it was tonight, regarding the design standards. We have asked that we be kept to whatever design standards are in effect at the time the building permits are applied for and Anna had said that she wanted the entryway corridor standards to apply, with some minor modifications. I guess we are not really prepared to accept that when it's so vague and we don't know -- we don't even know what those are at this time. It's not an entryway corridor. You know, I'm sure that whoever comes in will be willing to work with her. I know that you like to see -- it looked like the front of a building adjacent to Locust Grove and we want it to look like -- you know, to fit in with what Brockton has done and with what the Heritage Place Subdivision has done. I'm not saying we'd follow that exactly, but I'm sure in working with staff that we can arrive at that, we just did not want to state that we would comply with design standards that didn't exist. As far as using striping, we did want to retain the ability to use striping on the existing -- the existing asphalt, as it is very costly to saw cut and replace that with pavers and we did one just recently in Star for the Parkstone Subdivision that we are working on developing and it was over 10,000 dollars for a single crossing and we did not want to have to go to that expense when it could be handled differently. Other than that I don't believe I have any other comments. I will stand for any questions you may have. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 19 of 52 De Weerd: Council, any questions? Bird.: I have none. Canning: Madam Mayor, while Ms. Stiles is up at the podium, the text you see in underline and strikeout form here is the text that was in the original staff report and the underlines and strikeouts were approved by the applicant. I think we didn't understand - - what we wanted was to take our existing UDC design standards and apply them to this site. What I don't think I realized until just now is that what Engineering Solutions is proposing with this language here by adding the in effect at the time of application for building permit, they are trying to exempt themselves from the existing design standards in our current code, but that's what we were trying to apply them -- specifically apply to them with this project. So, that is a difference of opinion and a concern on my part as well. Typically we have -- particularly with any nonresidential -non-single family residential applications we have either elevations or we tie them to the design standards in the current UDC and any subsequent versions of those design standards. Stiles: Madam Mayor, Council Members, I'm not really sure what Anna's trying to get at. We are just asking that we comply with the design standards in effect that are on -- written ordinances in effect at the time they apply for building permits, from tonight forward, whatever that may be. If they change, then, we will comply with that, but not to comply with some statement that's made tonight that says comply with entryway corridor standards with some minor modifications that we have no idea what those modifications would be. Canning: Madam Mayor, the design standards in the UDC apply to entryway corridors and large projects. All I was saying for Council's benefit is that the language that we put in the development agreement was, basically to reference back to those and, then, the applicant has proposed some minor modifications to that. So, I'm not proposing anything different from what was in the original staff report tonight, although I am concerned now with the applicant's request to add the language in effect at the time of the application for building permits, because I believe the intent was to apply the entryway corridor design standards with regard to facades, primary entrances, roof lines, all those things. We can reference Section 11-3-A-19 with regard to those if -- if that would make Council more comfortable. De Weerd: Okay. Council? Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 20 of 52 Bird: This is for Anna. Anna, is that -- Locust Grove considered an entry corridor? I thought Eagle Road was and Fairview and -- Canning: The entryway corridor designation ends just at the north property line of this project. No, it's not currently an entryway corridor, but, again, typically Council likes to see either elevations or some sort of design guidelines along with these nonresidential, specifically non-single family detached residential projects. And that's what staff was looking for for the DA. De Weerd:: Shari, I had a question regarding the -- one of the lots. I believe it was Lot 3 that would include the current parking for the medical arts charter school. Why -- why is that being taken -- or part of a lot that's undeveloped when that lot is pretty much full during the day? Stiles: Madam Mayor, Council Members, I would have to have Wendell Bigham speak to that. I don't know what kind of arrangements they might have with a future possible buyer or what their intent is with that specific lot. De Weerd: Okay. Stiles: They are aware that they need -- De Weerd: I'll save my question. Stiles: Okay. De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any further questions for the applicant's representative? Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: I would pick on the subject of pedestrian crosswalks. The difficulty with just striping is that it's not permanent. The other methods of marking would not need to be redone on a frequent basis and if you're proposing to add commercial and business uses in the proximity of children walking to school, I would tend to think that the more permanent and more visible separation by use of some other visible bricks -- I know it's more expensive than the initial painting., but you may have to paint it again every two or three years. In the long run that may come out even. That's just an opinion. Stiles: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba, Council Members, I can appreciate your -- yourwanting those to be the pavers and we would like that, too, if it weren't such a huge Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 21 of 52 expense. It wouldn't be just one crosswalk, we'd probably end up having two or three, possibly up to four of those, at a cost of between 40, 50 thousand dollars total for the project. We have no objection to requiring the new construction that comes in to be kept to that standard, it's just that we didn't have to -- want to have to tear up existing streets in order to provide that at this time -- De Weerd: So, would you want that -- Stiles: -- at public expense. De Weerd: -- to be tied, then, to any future development of the vacant lots, rather than put in at this point? Is that your intent? Stiles; Madam Mayor, Council Members, as far as within their development, if it's part of their new development and they are required to put those in, yes, we would be in favor of that and not have to do it as part of this final plat application. Or this preliminary plat application. Sorry. De Weerd: Did that answer your question? Zaremba: Not aptly, but yes.. De Weerd: It sounds like that condition is okay, as long as it's later; is that -- Zaremba; Well, if -- if it's later and retroactive, so that it covers all of the drive aisles and private roads and whatever it is we are talking about here. I would not want -- if somebody that's doing a new development only has to do that on their property and, then, there is this identical -- identifiable crosswalk that ends when it gets to the current paving, that would not solve my problem. If at that time they had to continue it across the current paving and it didn't happen now, that's not a problem for me. Stiles: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba, Council Members, it would be hard to saddle somebody in the future, probably, with that private street -- crossing that private street and, then, requiring them to put the pavers in. I know they also have the flashing light system. I don't know, that's probably more expensive than the pavers, but to be honest, it's not likely that that private street is going to be cut into and make -- put the stamped concrete as part of their development, it just simply wouldn't be very cost effective for them. You know, this is a school district property, I know they should follow the same rules as everybody else, but it is the public's money that we are spending when we -- when we do that. So, that is a concern. De Weerd: Any further questions, Council? Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 22 of 52 Rountree: I have none. Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Okay. I do have a question for Mr. Wendell. Stiles: Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you. Bigham: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Wendell Bigham, representing Joint School District No. 2. 1303 East Central Drive, Meridian. I'll stand for your questions. De Weerd: Well, I guess my question is as we went through and saw what the number of each of the lots, it seemed like lot number three would include the current parking that is used by the Medical Arts Charter School. So, wanted to know what the intent was on that,, if the charter school could potentially lose that parking if that lot were to develop. Bigham: Madam Mayor, it was my understanding, kind of at the advice of the planning engineers, that this lot for cross-access purposes would probably be better associated with this lot, as opposed to lot number -- whatever that is, five or six right there. Beyond that explanation, this parking is in excess of what is code. It serves -- is overflow for this and it provides a bit of parking relief for the Pathways Middle School that is currently located here. But to specially answer your question, I don't have a real good answer, other than it was just a perceived gross access and frontage onto this portion of the private drive. De Weerd.: Since parking has been always the -- it's like wars over water, we have it on parking, too, and it would concern me that you would have competition with student -- what currently is student intended parking and I don't know if it's over and above code or overflow, but that parking lot is usually full and so that -- that tells me that, as usual, most students don't walk to school, they -- and that's the nature of a charter school. The charter schools do not draw from the surrounding neighbors, they are more mobile. So, that parking is essential to that school. I would not like to see it compromised by allowing it to -- to park a future use and I guess that would be my -- my largest concern. Bigham: Madam Mayor, to be perfectly honest, when you first raised the question -- I'm trying to envision the original survey plat thhatdwas the lot and Ipwaspry ng toareadas sitting over in the audience thmking that t quickly the legal descriptions and I'm too blind to read all those little numbers right now. Your point is well taken. Other than cross-access purposes, the point for the school district is to maintain ownership, control, and use of that parking facility. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 23 of 52 De Weerd: For school use. Bigham: Yes.. De Weerd: Okay. That answers my question. Bigham: Okay. Madam Mayor, if I can address Commissioner -- or Councilman Zaremba's comments. Yes, money is important. That fact aside, we expect to play by the same rules as everyone else. However, because of the nature of the two charter schools -- these two are independently owned and operated charters -- well, owned by us and operated by the charters separately. This is a school district sponsored alternative middle school here. There is -- we anticipate that there will be very little cross-traffic between the L-O or the C-N in losed cam uls, soS hopefully, they a e not the schools. The elementary school Is a c p wondering over to Starbucks here on the corner. Again, we do a good job of striping. The statement that there is a lot of people walking to and from the school, as previously noted, very few people walk to either of these three facilities, since they cover a large geographic area. And the elementary school's park -- walking traffic is already provided via a pathway on-campus system out here to connect up with the people down the southern part. So, in -- from a planning standpoint we have done quite a bit of work to eliminate walking traffic. We would not encourage students to go across one, two, three., four, five, six curb cuts. So, my guess is we are talking about whether they are striped accesses or stamped concrete or paver accesses, you know, in this vicinity it is just cutting into an existing road.. In here we would prefer to do everything we could to discourage that cross-traffic. Canning: Madam Mayor -- De Weerd: But, Wendell, don't you have a crossing guard up at the northern end of that for kids across the street in Heritage Commons? . Bigham: Madam Mayor, I do not know. I honestly don't know. I'm assuming there is some probably type of crossing assistance out on Locust Grove interior within the subdivision. I honestly do not know. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.. Bird: I have been by there quite a few times and they have got the yellow lights blinking, but I have never seen a crossing guard. It sits so far back in there I'm not sure that most of the kids aren't bused. I've seen very little foot traffic out there. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 24 of 52 De Weerd: There are a lot of kids across the street in Heritage Commons, so I -- Bird: Better make sure they are safe. De Weerd: --don't know how they get there. Bigham: Madam Mayor, I believe they cross at the intersection of Leigh Field Drive and Locust Grove here. Or they will come out here. But, specifically, I do not have first- hand knowledge of that. De Weerd: And I guess I would just emphasize what Councilman Zaremba is saying is, you know, there needs -- that needs to be delineated and what is the appropriate treatment for that. I don't know. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd.: Yes. Zaremba: If maybe one very important one could be identified, as I understand., if there is six accesses there is not likely to be the need to make this kind of treatment for all six of them, but -- and I don't hear a lot of other people jumping on the band wagon, so I'm -- it's not a do or die for me, but if there were -- and I'm not that familiar with the use of this property, even though I have driven by it on Locust Grove, I haven't driven into it. If there were one that had an unusual amount of student traffic my inclination would be to save the special treatment for that one. I'm not locked into every -- if there is six of them, I'm not locked into every single one of them that may not have that kind of foot traffic. Bigham: Madam Mayor and Councilman Zaremba, if I was to hazard a guess as the primary one for pedestrian crossing would probably be this one, because I don't believe this -- I just love when I'm not quite prepared. I don't think there is a sidewalk on the north side, but can't honestly remember that. But this one would probably be the crossing -- I can't remember either -- for this type of traffic movement in and out of the elementary, would be -- if there was a logical one, that's probably it. Zaremba: Well -- and even there, a sidewalk that's parallel to the street and crossing a driveway is a fairly apparent place for children to be. What I was more worried about is if there is a spot at some random place where a driver might not expect it, at an entrance to a driveway you would expect it and I wouldn't be as concerned about that. Bigham: Madam Mayor -- Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 25 of 52 Zaremba: Maybe I don't need to be concerned. Bigham: I couldn't hazard a guess where we could try to address that concern through that maze of driveways, other than we would prefer to have sidewalks away from the school and the sidewalk up here is disconnected at quite some distance. Zaremba: In that case, Madam Mayor, let me jump to the other subject of the parking lot and this, actually, would be a question maybe to Director Canning. I think we are going to have a discussion whether or not -- De Weerd: Before you walk away -- so stay up there. Zaremba: I'm sorry. Yeah. Well, it's for all of you, but I was going to start with Director Canning. Canning: Ms. Stiles is trying to tell you that the parking lot is on the -- the other parcel. It's not on Lot 3. Zaremba.: It's not part of three. Well -- and that, actually, answers the question that I was going to get to, you anticipated. I have no doubt that there is probably going to be a cross-access agreement no matter which parcel it's attached to, but what I was going to ask is whether or not parcels one, two, three and four could have something in the development agreement that said that didn't count towards the required parking. But if it's attached to six, then, I'm not worried about it. Six or seven. Because it wouldn't count towards the other ones required; is that correct? Canning.: Madam Mayor, Members o within a thousand feet they are allowed shared parking, but it wouldn't typically. f the Council, Councilmember Zaremba, if it's to ask for it through alternative compliance and Zaremba.: Okay. De Weerd: My question for Wendell was -- I think Pioneer has office and perhaps some commercial between the arterial and the school itself. Is that -- am I remembering that correctly? I know it was an empty field for a long time. Bigham: Madam Mayor, I couldn't tell you that. I'm not familiar -- De Weerd: I guess the reason I ask is I wanted to -- to know if there has been any issues out there. I know they have had considerable concern and issues with speeding cars and the danger of both the kids and the crossing guards has been pretty -- it's been a very dangerous situation out there. But my concern is the C-N up in that northwest corner, if it's adrive-thru, like a coffee shop, because I think someone mentioned a Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 26 of 52 coffee shop -- those -- that kind of movement would conflict with kids walking to school and -- and would be in -- well, probably a concern with cars going in and out of that area with small children walking to school and just wanted a perspective on -- if it was like that at Pioneer or any of your other elementary schools, if you've have had any experience to avoid. Bigham: Madam Mayor, I can't tell you specifically of anything that where we are afraid of. We are always concerned about crossing movements on the walk routes to school. Now, those extend as far as a mile and a half out into the community and the walking distance from the school, so it somewhat gets to be an issue that we can't really control. However, if an application did come forward on that C-N parcel that we successfully sold, we would probably be expected to and we would review that application and weigh in on any proposed circulation, curb cuts, et cetera, for that applicant, just as -- because it -- once it shifts to the private ownership we would treat that property like we would everyone else's. But I couldn't tell you a specific concern -- most specifically I'm not familiar with the issues at Pioneer, other than we have crossing safety issues in proximity to our schools at all times. De Weerd: Well, we would all like to think that when we sell the property once, it is sold and they develop it like they say, but our experience has been that usually there is a good likelihood it will be flipped and what they say they will never do actually happens. And so, again, my concern is what those term movements are and are we setting ourselves up, because once it's a permitted use the city no longer has any kind of stick to regulate it and once the land is sold neither would the school district. So, what kind of protections can be put in place if that is designated that C-N to make sure that we are paying attention to our first and foremost priority and that is the safety of the children. Bigham: Madam Mayor, I would simply envision that C-N lot owned by someone other than the school district, what conditions would Council see fit to place on that ownership at this moment in time. We would concur with that. It's the same issue, the school's in the same spot, the ownership of the land is a mute point, we expect to be held to the same standard that you would see to hold private ownership of that land. And I don't have a good answer to that question, so not much help. De Weerd: Well -- and it's a school campus, you're more cognizant and the drivers are more cognizant, because it is a school campus. When it becomes a commercial venture, the caution sometimes is just not the same. Bigham: Correct. De Weerd.: And that would be my concern.. Council, any questions for Wendell? Rountree: Madam Mayor, I have a couple of questions. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 27 of 52 De Weerd.: Yes. Rountree: Or at least one for Wendell. And I'm going to use the words of your representative as it relates to the zoning and the zoning of the charter school, which would be L-O, but indicated it would most likely stay in school use. Getting specifically to the concern the Mayor raised, what's the probability that most likely being flipped to something else? Bigham: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree, you're talking specifically about us flipping the charter school site, the two existing facilities? I think it highly unlikely. One can never guarantee. I mean we own the buildings, the charter school operates out of the facilities we own, and I'm not sure that that situation won't change in some -- at some future point where the charter actually purchases the facilities from the school district and becomes totally autonomous from the district, much like all of the -- it's a district sponsored charter school, which makes the ownership of it unique from the traditional charters that come before you. I know of nothing that would tell us that the -- there is a likelihood that either of those two charters would do anything but try to expand. So, I don't think we --our intent would never be to flip it. Rountree: Another question. Has this proposal -- this land development, if you will, by the school district, been presented to your trustees or is this coming from the school administration? Bigham: Madam Mayor and Councilman Rountree, it has been reviewed with the trustees, it has been designated as surplus property and that is the reason we are moving forward with it. Our entire purpose is to sell the land.. We would have preferred to have sold the land without going through this entitlement process, but it didn't seem like the highest and best use of the taxpayers dollars. Again, following that same logic, providing elevations, if you will., for development activities, the school district does not feel we should be directly competing with the private sector by constructing office facilities and trying to lease them out. So, we are simply trying to get the land to the highest and best value based on its use as surplus land and we would very much like to dispose of this property. Rountree.: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Uh-huh. Rountree: Either Wendell or Shari. Did I understand you correctly that there is a curb cut here and that this private road would become a public road and connect up in this area? Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 28 of 52 Stiles: I'm sorry, could you ask that one more time. Shari Stiles, Engineering Solutions. Rountree: I wasn't sure I understood you correctly. This is the -- the private road now and you talked about turning the private road into a public road and the curb cut that would be in this area. Are you talking about the curb cut here and that that would continue on through here or are you just talking about this connection? Stiles: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree, it is not yet a private street. Staff has asked us to make that a private street in order to address the separate lots. There is a curb cut existing out on Leigh Field Drive. It would be what the school district intends to do would be to continue that road out to Leigh Field. Did I answer your question? Rountree.: It sure does. Bigham: Madam Mayor, if I can also weigh in on Councilman Rountree's discussion. The original Education Campus Subdivision showed a future road that follows this existing survey line, which existed on the original plat. The original intention was to have four charter schools of some nature across here. What's probably the biggest reality is the portable campus that is here, once it is determined that it is, in fact, successful and geographically correct, will undergo what happened at Crossroads. We will build a permanent facility. That permanent facility will be built in this portion of the lot, so this curb cut will be utilized to bring a roadway system in to serve the main building here and interconnect the campus and this chunk of land for the quite -- a very long foreseeable future. At that point would become open grass area, athletic PE area, to support all three of the schools. We simply need some grass. So, the likelihood of that street going through is good, but we probably would not construct it until we build the permanent structure over here. De Weerd: So, why wouldn't you just keep that the quasi-public use, instead requesting designation for an L-O? Canning.: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, let me help Mr. Bigham out on that one. The school is asking for the L-O designations on the school facilities. They are principally permitted uses within the L-O. I'm not sure that the school facilities are even an allowed use in R-4 anymore without -- I'm not sure they are even allowed anymore. So, it's -- it's a more appropriate zoning for the actual school facility. It allows them to come in as a principally permitted use on those lots. They are not requesting a Comprehensive Plan designation change, it would remain public/quasi-public on all of this property. De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Council, any further questions for the applicant or their representative? Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 29 of 52 Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. This is a Public Hearing. Is there any members of the public who would like to provide testimony on this application? Okay. Would the applicant's representative have any wrap-up remarks? Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: Before we do that, I would like to ask our fire department people. There are comments in there that mostly pertain to fire hydrants and addressing and stuff, but since you do have an educational use as part of this property, I just would request that you weigh in with an opinion about what we have been talking about. Johnson: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba, the other Members of the Council, right now most of our use out there at the safety center is the second graders that come in are -- they are usually bused in, so we don't have a whole lot of foot traffic across there, other than students coming from the school directly across the street from there. So, for our aspect I wouldn't see any issues with the proposed changes. Zaremba: Great. Thank you. De Weerd: Okay. Stiles: Madam Mayor and Council Members, Shari Stiles, Engineering Solutions. I want to apologize to Councilman Zaremba for misleading you on what you were asking before. I hope -- I wanted to make it clear that this is one lot, So, the charter school will be part of that lot. I -- one, two, three -- I don't know which order -- five, six, seven, eight -- wait. That was wrong, too. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Okay. I can count to seven. Zaremba: Thank you. Stiles: I'm not quite sure what Councilman Rountree was getting at with the private street extension through there. I know there may be some concern that that would become a through way -- cut through, if, in fact, there would at some point be a traffic signal there at the half mile mark, which I would anticipate at sometime would probably happen. I'm sure that the school district would be amenable to not making that a public through way. You can drive through there right now, clear through to Leigh Field, if it's not too muddy. I don't think they have had a lot of problems with cut-through traffic, but I can see where you might be concerned that that -- and that there might be some Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 30 of 52 additional safety concerns, but -- I hope that I answered your questions. If there is anything else you have of me, let her rip. De Weerd: Council, any questions? Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Council, if there is no further staff comments, applicant comments, the public had the opportunity to provide public testimony and seeing that there is no further questions, I would entertain a motion to close. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Before we close I'd like to make a comment or two, not specifically for or against this project, but it seems like we have heard from the applicant that they didn't want the city to be vague about design criteria, if they understood that we are interested in design. Maybe we are. And we don't really have a sense of what they would propose in this area. We have a comment from the school district that they will accept whatever conditions we might propose this evening on the commercial properties and that's all well and good, but I'm not going to sit here and come up with that list of conditions this evening. I think that's something that we need to deliberate and I think we need to make sure we do this one right, because I can see that we not only create issues for the school district, we create some issues with us with commercial development in an educational complex. Those elementary kids are going to go where ever they can get to go and with that potential private street, if you will, through the middle of an educational facility, bordered by commercial facilities, I don't know that it's been well enough thought out. I heard a comment from the school district that I guess wasn't -- I'm not quite prepared to answer some of the questions that have been asked. I would like to at least be able to deliberate this further, have staff put together some -- some comments and conditions that might address some of the safety issues that we have talked about and there is still issues with us. I understand it costs money to put in crosswalks. I understand maybe the -- the cutting of the asphalt and the brick might not be the answer, but I value those kids' life a lot more than I do value the cost to whoever is going to develop this property to put in an appropriate crosswalk. So, I'm suggesting that we continue this and get that information put together, so we can make a reasoned decision, as opposed to a five minute decision on this particular item. Canning.: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, if the Council chooses to go that way, I need a little more clarification, so I guess if -- once you find out which way you're going, if I could chime in that would be helpful. Okay. You're all staring at me. Does that mean I should chime in? Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 31 of 52 Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: I, for one -- I think I would join Councilman Rountree in saying that the project as a whole -- he didn't say this, but the project as a whole is one that could be acceptable to me, but I would like to make sure that the safety aspects are thoroughly addressed and whether it's observational or statistical, where are the children walking, where do they need to be protected. If there is a way to get those answers, I would support the idea to continue this. De Weerd: Any further comments? Do I have a motion? Canning: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes. Canning: Before you make a motion to continue it, may I ask for some clarification, since I have been -- I suspect I'm going to get directed to work with the applicant. De Weerd: And I'm sure the applicant would like that as well. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I heard some questions about the appropriateness of the L-O zoning, but I haven't heard a consensus of the Council on -- on whether you want more C-N or less C-N or just leave it L-O. So, if I could get some clarification on that would be helpful. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I'm okay with what's proposed in terms of the amount, but I want to see the right conditions applied to that, so we don't have adrive-thru situation that becomes a conflict with pedestrians and particularly school children on the access road. That would be --adrive-thru would be one use that I think we would want to condition out. Canning: Okay. Rountree: Those sorts of things. And I think probably working with the applicant you can get a sense of what might been there. I know there is a long list of conditions we could come up with, but, again, the safety one is the biggest one for me right now. The other conditions I would want with respect to the interior traffic movement is -- Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 32 of 52 particularly with the number of kids that could be crossing through this area is to make sure that the crosswalks are identified in a fairly consistent and uniform manner and some assurance that if it's a minimum of paint that we see a commitment on the part of the school district to do it multiple times a year, particularly if there is enough volume of traffic in there to wear the stripes off. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, can I ask for thoughts on something. The applicant has -- or been requested to submit for a private road for addressing purposes, which is a common -- common requirement. In nonresidential zones that private road requirement carries with it a sidewalk -- a minimum sidewalk on one side of that private road. That would seem to be an appropriate sidewalk without needing the north-south sidewalks, because you do have the schools at the terminus of that road. So, I would suggest that that would be the appropriate location, either on the north or south side. Obviously, the south side impacts the school district property much much more, but more people would be using it that are going to -- to structures located on the south side of that. So, if I could get Council's thoughts on that, if that is the appropriate sidewalk location, or if you want one going north-south and -- I think that would be helpful. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: I support that that should be a private street, again, for addressing purposes and other conveniences. Part of what my thought would be of continuing this for a future date would be to have feedback from you all which side you thought it ought to be on, the sidewalk and so forth. Where ever the greater amount of traffic is I agree with you that's probably where it should be. If that seems like it's on the south side, that -- that works for me. But that does seem to be a subject for continuances what sidewalks where, what treatment. If that becoming a public street forces there to be a sidewalk, certainly support that. On the subject of the L-O, if I may retrogress a moment, I am happy with what the applicant is proposing here, L-O comes with certain conditions that I think we are comfortable with around the school. If at some time those other parcels -- I'm probably thinking parcel two and parcel three -- are sold to somebody who wants to reapply for a rezoning, we would have an opportunity to condition them differently at that time. So, on that subject I think I'm comfortable in going forward with the request as is. Canning: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. I think I got the clarification I needed., unless there is any other comments from Council. Rountree: Madam Mayor, I guess my final comment would be to resolve the design issue and the design language. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 33 of 52 Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: My only concern is the safety of the children and I have no problem with what they are asking for the zoning. I think that road should stay a private road and the sidewalk, to me, would logically be on the south, because that's where you're supplying three schools -- or two schools. Well, three, I guess. As you all know, I'm not here -- sitting here to design their buildings for them, but I do want it to be safe for the kids, any kids that walk there. I have driven by there quite a few times when school is out, you don't see a lot of foot traffic, because they are going to being bused the most, but we have definitely got to make sure that foot traffic for kids is safe. So, that would be my biggest thing is to work something out there that would -- De Weerd: So, to clearly delineate where the sidewalks are, because, you know -- and so Shari and Wendell will work with staff, but it seems to me in front of that Medical Arts Charter School they do not have a sidewalk on that south side. So, if we can offer up where those sidewalks currently exist and include it in your inventory there. I know there is a sidewalk alongside the professional technical charter -- Bird: To a point. De Weerd: Yeah. Just around that corner. Is that enough detail? Canning: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you.. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Rountree. Rountree.: I would move that we close the Public Hearing -- Canning: Sir. Rountree: Or have we? De Weerd: You want to continue it. Rountree: Oh. Excuse me. Continue the Public Hearing on Items 13, 14 and 15 until March 25th. Meridian City Council March 4, 2008 Page 34 of 52 Bird.: Second. Zaremba: Second. Oh. Sorry. De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to continue Items 13, 14 and 15 to March 25th. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. De Weerd: Okay. Wendell, you don't get spring break, do you? Does that date work for you? If you will come to the -- Bigham: Thank you. Madam Mayor, Wendell Bigham, Meridian School District. would ask that we extend it a little further into the future. If -- by the nature of the discussion, if it demands other resources from the school district, such as safe transportation people, with spring break following that week it may be hard to get the people with the specific information that may be germane to the discussion here. So, if we could move it out into the first week in Aprilish, whatever, would work also for us. De Weerd: Do you want to revisit it at that time or do you want a date to be set different? Bigham: Madam Mayor, I think because of people that I may want to bring in, I think any date other than in the middle of spring break would be absolutely fine with us. De Weerd: April Fool's Day? No, that's our workshop. April Fool's? Okay. Thank you. Council, I would need a new motion. Mr. Nary. Bird: Revise your motion. De Weerd: Do we have to cancel the former motion or can we just -- Rountree: I'll revise it. De Weerd.: -- revise it? Nary: There you go. Rountree: Madam Mayor, I revise my previous motion for the date certain of April the 1st. Bird: Second agrees.