HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007 11-27Menaian ~~~ ~.vut~~~~ ~.~~~~~..
A meeting of the Meridian City Council was cdalled to order at 7:00 p.m., Tuesday,
November 27, 2007, by Mayor Tammy de Weer
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird., Charlie Rountree, Joe Borton
and David Zaremba.
Others Present: Bill Nary, Will Berg, Anna Canning, Bob Stowe, Ron Anderson, Kyle
Radek, Steve Siddoway, Keith Watts, and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Joe Borton
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: I will go ahead and call this meeting to order. We'd like to think that you're
here just to see us, but we know that you're all here for a special reason and welcome.
We appreciate you joining us here tonight. I will go ahead start tonight's meeting. For
the record it is Tuesday, November 27th., at 7:00 o'clock. We will start tonight's meeting
with roll call attendance.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance:
De Weerd:: Item No. 2 is the pledge of allegiance. Please rise and join us in the pledge.
(Pledge of allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation by Pastor Shawn Ragan with Church of God
Seventh Day:
De Weerd: Item No. 3 is our community invocation. Tonight we will be led by Pastor
Shawn Ragan and he is with the Church of God Seventh Day. If you will all join us in
the community invocation or take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection.
Pastor.
Members of the Council, shall we pray? Oh, God., our
Ragan: Madam Mayor,
Heavenly Father, who loveth mankind and are most merciful and compassionate, Lord,
have mercy on our city and on our Mayor and City Council. Direct them in the path that
you would have them walk according to your will for our city and our communities. Give
them wisdom in the decisions they make tonight and guide them all and all of those who
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 2 of 76
serve on our behalf throughout this week, that they may accomplish the tasks set before
them. Be mindful, oh Lord, of our police and fire departments. Protect them and keep
them from harm's way as they work to protect us. Be with each officer as they work to
keep us safe. Be mindful, oh Lord, of all those who are in need in our communities, the
sick and the dying, the hungry and the poor. Help us to reach out in Christian love to
each person in Meridian, especially those me and abroadlinProBct themfua~s theyoserve
our armed forces, both those serving at ho
our country and keep us safe from those who seek to harm us. We thank you, our
Father, for all that you do. For your great Ithe Son andrHoly Spirit, amens Thanik yo nd
honor to your holy name, of the Father and
Item 4: Adoption of the Agenda:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item No. 4 is adoption of the agenda.
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Believe it or not, I move that we approve the agenda as published.
Rountree: Second..
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the agenda as published. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRFED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Consent Agenda:
A. Approve Minutes of November 7, 2007 City Council Regular
Meeting:
B. Tabled from October 23, 2007: Addendum to Development
Agreement: AZ 05-066 Request for Annexation and Zoning of .50
acres from R-12 to C-G zone for Meridian Veterinary Clinic by
Architecture Northwest - 415 West Franklin Road:
C. Grant of Easement to Idaho Power Cornpany for Installation
and Perpetual Use of a 15 foot by 60 foot strip of Land Located
within Heroes Park:
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November 27, 2007
Page 3 of 76
p. License Agreement with Nampa Meridian Irrigation District for
McNelis Subdivision:
E. Approve Lift Station /Force Main Easement Agreement for
Tricia's Crossing Bud for "Autumn Fair Lift Station".
F. Task Order 0730 with Civil Surve Consultants Inc.. for Bower
Street Water Main Improvements Design for an Amount not to
exceed $8,320:
C. Task Order 2 Agreement for Professional Services with Hydro
Laic for Engineering Consulting Services Regarding
Municipal Water Supply Well Evaluation and Rehabilitation for
a Cost Not to Exceed $25,000:
H. Streetlight Agreement for Zebulon Heights No. 2 by Traditions
by Amyx II:
De Weerd: Item 5 is the Consent Agenda.
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move that we approve the Consent Agenda, Items A through H, and for the
Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest on all papers.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: We have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. If there
is no discussion., Mr. Berg, will you call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea..
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 6: Department Reports:
A. Parks Department
2. Budget Amendment Request for Messina Meadows
Park:
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November 27, 2007
Page 4 of 76
De Weerd.: Under Department Reports, Item 6, we have Steve Siddoway with our parks
department.
Siddoway: I'll just come up to this mike to keep it moving..
De Weerd: Great idea.
Siddoway: Thank you. I'm pleased to be before you tonight. There is two items on the
I'll take the second item first, because I
Department Report. With your permission,
believe we need to handle the -- the budget amendment first, as it affects the proposed
agreement. So, this is for the Messina Meadows Park, future name to be determined. I
know we discussed last week with the proposed name of Verona., which will be taken
back to the Commission next month, but that's th nstruct onathisaskumme ~ andNis Howe
have out there is a park that's been under co
basically, at completion. The developer funded improvements for that park total just
over 1.4 million dollars and covers thingsthe Isewertand waterhserva el to the s to and,
system, grass, trees, walkways, fencing,
then, the sub base and curbing for the playground area. The items that we are -- as a
city are responsible for total 186,000 dollars -- just over that and cover the items such
as the restrooms, the playground equipment, basketball court, parking lot, swing set,
and the max coin controller for the irrigation. In addition to that 186,000 dollars, we do
have 18,400 dollars worth of additional park amenities for picnic tables, garbage cans,
park signage, shelter installation and tot toys in the park and a ten percent contingency
on the amounts requested for those items to handle any increases that are unexpected..
So, just to do a rundown, the developer reimbursement is the 186,000 dollars. The
additional amenities for the parking lot -- parking -- I'm sorry. Additional amenities for
the picnic benches, garbage cans, things like that, were 18,000, plus the ten percent
contingency on just those items. The total needed would be just over 206,000 dollars.
We do have an existing budget of 166,000 dollars and a little bit that is already available
to us. It's not enough to cover the total amount in the park, leaving us a balance of just
under 40,000 dollars of additional funds needed in order to finish the park. Next slide.
So, I think that we are getting a fantastic value. Like I said, the developer donations to
this park are over 1.4 million. The total cost to the city, including the 39,000 dollars that
we are requesting as a budget enhancement, is just over 200,000 dollars, but we do
need that 39,848 dollars in order to pay back the developer for those items listed and to
finish the items in the park that are needed to complete it. And I will stand for any
questions.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: On the developer, wasn't that reimbursed through impact fees?
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November 27, 2007
Page 5 of 76
Siddoway: Correct.
Bird: Okay.
Siddoway: Yeah. This is an impact fee enhancement request.
Bird.: Great. Thank you.
De Weerd: Council, any further questions?
Rountree: I have none.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba?
Zaremba: No. Madam Mayor, I move we approve the budget, amendment request for
the to be named currently called Messina Meadows Park, for an amount not to exceed
39,848 dollars.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Mr. Berg..
Roll-Call: Bird., yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRfED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Thank you.
1. Park Develo rnent .Park Im act Fee Reimbursement
and Real Property Conveyance Aareement with the City
of Meridian and Tuscan Develo. ment Inc. for Messina
Meadows Park:
Siddoway: The second item on the department report is the agreement that goes with
this. It does agree to, in short, reimburse the developer that exact amount for the
$186,402.88 for the items previously listed. shortl oblsoatiwith that Ibll stand fornany
approved we will be reimbursing them here y
questions.
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Bird: I have none.
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November 27, 2007
Page 6 of 76
De Weerd.: Seeing none --
Zaremba: Does that need a motion? Madam Mayor?
De Weerd.: Mr. Nary, does this need a motion?
Nary: Madam Mayor, yes, it does.
De Weerd:: Okay.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I move we approve the park development impact fee
reimbursement that is Item 6-A-1 on our agenda.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. If there is no discussion, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Siddoway: Thank you.
Borton: Thanks, Steve.
Item 7: Items Moved from Consent Agenda:
De Weerd: Thank you. There were no items moved from the Consent Agenda.
Item 8: FP 07-035 Request for Final Plat approval for 4 commercial building lots
on 4.91 acres in a C-G zone for Kell Creek Commercial Subdivision by
Blackhawk /Meridian, LLC - NWC of Linder Road and McMillan Road:
Item 9: FP 07-036 Request for Final Plat approval for 11 commercial building lots
and 2 common lots on 26..38 acres in an I-L zone for Kenned
Commercial Center by DBSI Meridian, LLC - 1250 W. Overland Road
De Weerd: So I will move to Item No. 8 is FP 07-035. Anna.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, we have letters of agreement from --
forboth final plats on your agenda tonight.
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November 27, 2007
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De Weerd.: Council, any further information needed on either eight or nine?
Rountree: I have none.
De Weerd: If none, do I have a motion?
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve FP 07-035 and FP 07-036.
Zaremba: Second..
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Items 8 and 9. If there is no
discussion, Mr. Berg, will you call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree., yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 10: Public Hearing: AP 07-009 Request for City Council Review of an
Appeal of the Planning and Zoning Commission's approval of the Selwa
Apartments (CUP 07-016) by cMillanl Ro d and east of Ten Mile Road of
Goddard Creek Way, north of M
De Weerd: Item 10 is a Public Hearing on AP 07-009. I'll ask staff to introduce this,
then, we would give ten minutes to the appellant and five minutes to the project
applicant.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I would think that five minutes
wouldn't be enough. I mean this hearing is a new hearing for the Council and it's -- the
project is a large project and would take, I would think, more than five minutes to
describe. I would -hope that you could offer the applicant -- the original applicant at least
as much time as the appellant in this instance.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, certainly it'sboth thehappeall seglue ttand
but I would agree with Mrs. Canning, it's a fairly lengthy --
the -- or the review request that's been made, as well as the project itself. So, it may
ultimately take ten or 15 minutes for each of the sides to begin their initial presentation,
not including the public testimony behind that.
De Weerd: Okay. Well, I will defer to Council. What is your desire?
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November 27, 2007
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Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd.: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would give them equal.
De Weerd: Okay.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: Let's do 15 each.
De Weerd: Okay.
Borton: Make sure it gets covered.
Zaremba: Works for me.
De Weerd: You've got 15 minutes. That's all right. No, it doesn't. It's just the
presentation from each side and staff will introduce the project to begin with.
Canning: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. The project before you
tonight is the Selway Apartments. It's IM Mil an Road and abo t a quarte~am le east of
Way, approximately 500 feet north of
Ten Mile Road.. The application before you tonight is the City Council review of a
Planning Commission decision on a Conditional Use Permit for a multi-family
development. I'm going to go over the proposed development. It was conditional use
approval to construct amulti-family development consisting of 17 multi-family buildings.
There are four 24-plexes and those are the large structures, one, two, three and four.
Eight eight-plexes and those are the ones that are generally of this size. So, there is
one., two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. And five duplexes. And those are located
on the north property line. There was one storage building and~licant is also hequesting
a managerial living quarters and that's on 10.1 acres. The app
approval to construct a private street loop road to provide access and circulation
throughout the proposed development. And that's largely for addressing purposes and
was. requested by staff. The gross residential density is approximately 17 units per
acre. As background information, this project was part of Lochsa Falls planned
development approval in 2002, this area was conceptually approved for 171 multi-family
units. As part of that Lochsa Falls approval the City Council allowed the subject multi-
family development as a use exception to the primarily single family Lochsa Falls
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November 27, 2007
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development. The city and the developer entered into a development agreement
requiring Conditional Use approval prior to construction of this multi-family development.
A final plat was also approved by City Council for the site in June of 2007. The site is
currently designated high density residential on the City's Comprehensive Plan land use
map and it's currently zoned R-4 and that's because of the planned unit development
approval had the R-4 zoning on the entire property. We do have elevations for you and
I think the applicant will go through these in more detail. There are a number of
different buildings and these are the various elevations for those. And it's always
unusual when we have a City Council review of an application. I did want to go through
the Commission Public Hearing, what occurred at that Public Haatio 9 on O t ber~4th,
information for the City Council. They acted to approve the app
2007. At that hearing Daren Fluke, Wayne Thowless and Allen Wallace spoke in favor
of the application. And I'm going to apologize in advance for missing anybody's name.
In opposition were John .Nelson, Jorey Miller, Brian Coffy, Dion Callahan, Matt Hessing,
David Bondleson, Anna Bondleson, Tammy Witham, Aaron Tiderman, Mr. and Mrs.
Valas, Tracy Fries., Marjorie Matthis, Chris Sondra and Robert Layton. Donna Egress,
Nick Nekakis, Bernadette Rizeback, Glen
Jennifer Regner, Ken Thowless, Ann Nekakis,
Peterman, James Shilton, Brian Katcher, Cheryl Hopkins, Don Fleck, Dan Skoric, Mark
Wheeler, Sarah Marksfield Katcher, Dan Clizbe, John Bellamy, Lawrence Gibson, Wally
Linda
Reisback -- it's either Sebra and Sondra, misspelled, Freeman, Jim Freeman,
Olman, Jim Olman, Andrea Skoric, Jeff Weeks, LaDawn Weeks, Ron Horsely, Joann
Stevens, Mel Grant, Lillian Grant, and Sily Carbahol. Commenting included Glen
Tiderman, James Shilton, Brian Katcher, Cheryl Hopkins -- most of those are repeat
names, so I won't go through them. Written testimony was from John and Rachael
Nelson, Elaine and Mike Robie, Cheryl Hopkins and Deon Callahan. The key issues of
discussion by the Commission were the lighting for the development, the berming along
the north and western property lines. The building materials, more specifically vinyl
siding., three tab roofing, hardy plank siding, rock stone accents, the pathway
the denser
connectivity to the north with the existing residential neighborhood,
landscaping adjacent to the residential homes along the western and northern
boundaries. Construction of the trash enclosures being of block with offset metal gates.
Vinyl fencing along the southern property boundary. Mechanical units to remain in the
rear of building F. New elevations with new building materials for Commission review.
Access and future connectivity with the commercial parcel to the south. Building
setbacks adjacent to residential structures. The key Commission changes to staff
recommendation were the building materials for the buildings are to be hardy board
siding as submitted with the CU application. The lighting for the development must be
shielded. Applicant is to work with staff regarding an additional amenity. Trash
enclosures are to be constructed of block with offset metal gates. Additional trees to be
planted along the north and west sides with trees touching at 80 percent maturity.
Provide vinyl fencing along the southern boundary. Connect the existing micropath to
the north. All landscaping along the north and west property lines shall be installed and
prior to obtaining any occupancy for any building all the development improvements,
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November 27, 2007
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such as irrigation, parking, and landscaping shall be installed on that building site.
Additional elevation for building F1 has been inserted in as Exhibit A of the staff report
and building setbacks are to remain the same along the western and northern side.
And the airconditioning units to remain in the rear of the building for building F along the
northern boundary. The written testimony we received since the staff report is the
request for City Council review, the application that came in, and the response from the
original applicant on that request for review. The outstanding issues for City Council
from -- basically from the City Council review request would be architectural materials,
density, school overcrowding and compatibility with the surrounding residences. Again,
those are the primary concerns of the appellants. And I use the word appellants just for
ease tonight. It isn't an appeal, it's just a new hearing for you all, but I think just the
terminology appellant will. be easier if we refer to the original multi-family request folks
as the applicant and the other folks as the appellants, I think that will be the easiest way
to keep things straight. With that I'd answer any question City Council may have or
Mayor.
De Weerd: Council, any questions at this point?
Bird.: I have none.
Rountree: Not right now.
Boston: Thanks, Anna.
De Weerd: Okay. Just for the record, before I open this up to the appellants, I would
note for the record -- I have had discussions with the appellants, as well as a couple -- a
number of the neighbors that I can't list by name, because I didn't get their name when I
talked to them, but it was general in nature and more on the process. So, would the
appellants like to come forward. If you will, please., state your name and address for the
record.
Fries: Tracy Fries, 2787 West Wapoot, Kelly Creek Subdivision.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Fries: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, thank you for granting us audience this
evening. I understand that you are in receipt of communication from applicant's legal
counsel imploring you to deny our request for appeal. My apologies for any errors or
omissions in our original application, but we do feel that our application adequately
stated the basis for our appeal this of the normalvrealm of ouryexperience Itl would like) to
out some of our -- working outside o
request some clarification before we proceed.
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November 27, 2007
Page 11 of 76
De Weerd: Okay.
Fries: Our main concern regarding the impact of this project on our communities is the
proposed density. Is a reduction in density up for discussion this evening?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, the 171 units were specifically approved
by the City Council back in 2002 whn n can discuss anything they want toalbut the
applicant or any of the public testimo y
Council's consideration tonight is not over the number of units that have been approved
for this, but, rather, the other things as staff has outlined in regards to the compatibility
of this with the neighborhood in relation to the buildings, the size of buildings, the
landscaping, the setbacks, the fencing., those types of considerations. But the specific
number was approved in 2002 by a Development Agreement.
Fries: Thank you, Mr. Nary. Okay. Given that statement, community frustrations are
easily understood when one considers our position as homeowners and members of
this community. Each of us purchased our home under the understanding that that plat
of land was zoned R-4. We have been chastised many times on our lack of due
diligence and that we should have consulted the future land use map. I would like each
of you to note the future land use map sitting right here in City Hall right. now that does
not show that land classified as high density. Those maps are in existence, but if they
are not in these chambers, please, consider our frustrations and how we were easily
misinformed regarding this particular plat of land. It is our understanding that this was
approved under a 2002 development agreement. It allowed for the proposed 171 unit
complex, contingent upon the approval of a Conditional Use Permit. We would submit
that this project is incapable of meeting the unified code -- Unified Development Code
requirements for the granting of a CUP within the s Ime of thoselassues and, theln,Nl
community member Mr. Tiderman is going to address
will follow up on a few more following him. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. And if you will also state your name and address for the record.
Tiderman: Gladly. My name is Glen Tiderman. I live at 2432 West Los Flores Drive in
the Bridgetower Subdivision.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Tiderman: First one on the list -- I'll reference it as E-1, based on our application for
review -- is fire lane radii on the emergency exit or entrance near the knuckle off
Goddard,. If you notice, all the corners within the sub -- or within the apartment complex
have a radius corner. Those are not -- we are concerned that -- that the fire access is
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November 27, 2007
Page 12 of 76
not what it should be for an emergency exit and/or entrance in case of some blockage in
other areas. We are also concerned because we don't have a true to scale map of this,
that this road right here may be longer than the allowed 150 feet, needing, if it was -- as
we understand the fire code, if it's 150 feet or more, or maybe more than 150 feet, it
requires a turnaround at the end, which, clearly, it does not have. So, again, without
some sort of scale it's a concern that we have. And we were also concerned about
some of the driveways here as far as meeting fire code. If you have got -- we are
wondering what sort of accommodations the builders might make for somebody with a
large pickup, for example, a crew cab long bed pickup, which is not uncommon, which is
much longer by usually three to four or five feet than a typical 19 foot stall. That would
impede on the fire lane and we are wondering if there is any accommodation for that.
On E-3, construction, there was some contention in the previous meeting about roofing
materials. Three tab roofing shingles were allowed, as long as they were black. We
would argue because of the area that It s m, that it needs to be an architectural shingle,
which is what everybody's house in the neighborhood has, Bridgetower, Kelly Creek,
and all of the commercial in the area either have file roofs or an architectural shingle.
So, without that sort of connection we think that -- that that's a problem. Thank you.
Also we would request, again, without good drawings, the pitch to be a minimum six and
12, which is what the Kelly Creek association requires. Siding -- the hardy panel mix
makes us much happier than the originally proposed vinyl. However, we think that it
could go much farther and much better. Again, Kelly Creek's CC&Rs, they require a 40
percent stone and stucco accent to the front of the buildings. We would like to see the
hardy panel mix continue to the back side of their apartments., in addition to the 40
percent stone and stucco accents in the front. Color -- not that there is anything wrong
with the colors they have chosen, but the people in these neighborhoods have had to
have their colors approved either by the Kelly Creek association or the colors need to
be chosen from the Bridgetower pallet with corresponding restrictions of use. We would
ask that they would either choose from the Bridgetower pallet or submit their colors for
approval within the Kelly Creek association. Understanding, of course, that they are not
part of that, but they are certainly bordering both associations and should blend therein.
S-1 or S-2, there is a number of
One problem -- if you could go back to the parking here -- they do not have any kind
covered parking spots along north bit here and here,
of headlight block. There are some pictures available -- I don't know if they will be easy
to find right away, but from the backyard that's -- from the backyard you can see how
much of the back windows show on the lower level of these homes and standing in the
homes -- there are some pictures that I have taken from one of the homes outside, it's
clear that the headlights are going to impede on the homes. We'd .like to see some sort
of block, be it hedging or some sort of metal containment for that -- that light for those
people parking.. A little bit of privacy and consistency for the folks that are bordered
along there. We have noticed that the compressors have been allowed to be set to the
back of the buildings. We would ask that the code for that be upheld and that
compressors only be allowed to the sides and not to the back, especially on the nthat
and west sides of this development. And there are walkways here, also along here,
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November 27, 2007
Page 13 of 76
we would like to see deleted from the plans, as they don't -- they don't really seem to go
anywhere, other than through the grassy area and they certainly would promote -- we
want to try to keep the residents away from thetphat be changed mOn the next b t that I
simply for ease of living. So, we would ask tha
have here, E-4, there is a connector to WapoTheltPlanningt andeZon ngttComhmission
bt's already built in on the Wapoot side.
requested that that be put in and opened. Ho Vevarcorrdoa much for theses dentsaof
We don't feel, first of all, that this is going to g
Kelly Creek, so much as the residents for the The f st party that we halve is gol ng to
parking as there is only 18 visitor parking spots
have parking all along Wapoot here. Also, it will give, you know, access to park areas,
which, to be perfectly honest with you, are not -- the signage is up in Lochsa, Kelly
Creek, and Bridgetower for private parks and manentl closedhoff fortthose pu poses.
would ask that this would be deleted and per Y
On the same note, Goddard being an access road here is, as I understand, coded or
zoned' no parking, but it's not marked in any way. Certainly, the residents clearly
understand that. We are concerned that if the -- if thernos a~kpn rkiegher Itheough red
parking will go in here. We'd like to see this marked p 9
curbing or signs. Also, it would be rather good, we believe, to -- as they exit here, have
a right turn only, so that they can only go out agetallowed forgo straight goers straight
reason for that is this -- this street, if they
through Apgar, which is a straight shot, essentially, they just put one stop sign through
it, to Linder and there is already some issues with that street. as far as speed iss uttin na
traffic issues. We'd like to alleviate some of the impact on those people by p 9
right turn only on that exit.
You know, not being a lawyer, not being in the business, it's difficult, but drainage is an
issue. There are some drainage areas here that are listed.. Exactly where they are I'm
not sure. This is not a very good view of this, but I know there is a couple here, there is
one back here in this corner. Because we don't always have access to the specific
designs and information that wed like to have or if we are, sometimes it's not easily
accessed by us, because we don t know exactly what to do to get it. But given
Bridgetower's trouble with these kind of things, which has similar drainage, except it's
sand based. This clearly or apparently by the plan is going to have a sod base to it, we
have serious doubts about the effectiveness of their design, seeings that Bridgetower's
the UDC saying -- stating that all drainage
had trouble with this, adhering to the code,
ponds need to be emptied within 24 hours. We are not sure if they are going far enough
with that. We'd like to have that looked at a little bit closer. On E-6, I spoke personally -
- I'm a former teacher. I spoke personally with Principal Brigham at Paramount. He
was not able to make it tonight, but he said that I would be certainly willing to pass this
information on. They are currently at over 680 students for a school, as he told me, that
was built for 650. They are in the process of adding a new third grade class right now
as we speak. He says the trouble with this is that the folks that are -- have their
students in here in the third grade see the benefit to a smaller class size, and yet they
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November 27, 2007
Page 14 of 76
don't want to see their kids moved, becausmerous oclassroomsew'th ndthosenschools,
two or three schools and sometimes nu
because of the adjustments of this town. There are some numbers that have been put
through -- you guys have access to this. Let's see, I have that here. That there will be
an estimated 52 elementary age children living in this -- this apartment complex, 48
middle school and 37 senior high students. Only focusing on the elementary itself, Mr.
Bigham said that that would certainly be a hardship and a concern. And I can tell you
from my own personal experience if they have to bring in temp buildings, I worked six
out of eight years teaching in temp buildings, there are definitely some issues with
those. Heating and cooling can be very difficult in those buildings. And Ithink -- I think
that's it for me and -- Tracy. Thank you.
De Weerd:: Thank you.
Fries: I have just a few additional comments --
De Weerd: For the record, Tracy Fries --
Fries: Oh. Just for the record., Tracy Fries, 2787 West Wapoot. Just a few additional
comments regarding Unified Development Code Section 11-5B, subsection 6-E-5,
deals with the ability of infrastructure being able to adequately serve the proposed
project. ACRD -- you all should have access to their report of September 20th, so you
will note they have recommendations or information on their capital improvements five
year work plan. There are no projects within this area included in that five year work
plan. The Linder Road U:stick -- from Linder Road from Ustick to Chinden is scheduled
to be widened to five lanes within six to ten years. McMillan Road from Black Cat to
Meridian is scheduled to be widened to three lanes within 11 to 20 years. Now, wait a
minute. Wait a minute. Give them their due. The intersection of Linder-McMillan
Roads was scheduled to be widened to silized between 2013 and 2017thWe do haveua
lanes on the east and west legs and signa
few more very valid points.
De Weerd: Can you wrap up in a minute?
Fries: Two?
De Weerd: This is a negotiation.
Fries: This is a very very impactful decision being made tonight and I think it pertinent
that you hear everything that needs to be said.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 15 of 76
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Tracy, do you have anything more to add?
Fries: I do.
Rountree: Thank you.
Fries: Thank you, Councilman Rountree. Now, that was planned between 2013 and
2017. To the credit of this county and ACRD, that currently many of you may have seen
the signs that went up today, is scheduled to begin process next month, which will help
alleviate some of those issues. However, channeling six lanes and four lanes back into
two lanes in that short area span for the next six toAlso eundergha gsame code,upol ce
that's something that needs to be considered. ,
services was one thing that we had a question regarding. The police department did
state that they had concern regarding more than four units sharing a common entrance
and/or stairwell, that they were a safety concern and they would like to have a meeting
with Rudeen to address that prior to the next here. We would like to know if that has
been addressed or resolved, because if it has, we haven't seen that in the plans. Also
under that same code, parks are an issue, whether or not we have adequate park
facilities for this community. I understand they will have their own tot lot. As Glen
mentioned, the facilities that exist at Bridgetower, Lochsa, and Kelly Creek all have
signs up that they are for neighborhood use only. There is an existing public park on
Ten Mile north of Verona and west of Kelly Creek and Lochsa Falls. It is our
that
understanding, as we have been told several times throughout these proceedings,
that land was donated to the city and part of the reason why this large -- this higher
density is being allowed. However, that land is under lease to the Police Athletic
League for their soccer program for the next 25 years. There are no public facilities on
that lot and none are planned for the next 25 years and that needs to be taken into
account. It's also another reason we would request that that connectivity to Wapoot be
closed off. There is no reason for that to need to be accessed.. Finally, the schools.
Glen touched briefly on that. There was mention at the last meeting -- and I have in my
possession a letter from Joint School District No. 2, Jana McCarthy, director of Magnet
Schools, Paramount Elementary opened this fall, as Glen stated, intended to serve 600
students. Or expected enrollment 600 students, intended to serve 640. On the date
that they opened they were at 680 students. Paramount has not reach full build out.
Kelly Creek is not completely occupied. I ein ntend Ito tintroduce thiseadd tonOaA high
month. were 30 percent unoccupied and if
density project to our community, we need to be prepared for the impact upon our
schools. The UDC states that it cannot have an adverse impact on these areas of
concern. It does. We don't feel that they hat weecan do to help that procedure is ong.
help us to understand how they can and w
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 16 of 76
But right now we are not seeing any answers for these particular problems, especially
our schools. And that is the end of our opposition. So, thank you for hearing us.
De Weerd: Tracy, before you sit down, let me ask if Council has any questions.
Fries: Apologize.
De Weerd': Council, any questions at this point?
Bird.: I have none.
Gorton: Not yet.
Zaremba: Not yet.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Fries: Thank you.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would ask if we could, for a moment at least, display what's probably the
slide before this that shows a bigger area, the surrounding area. The one that was just
before this that I think was an aerial view, probably. Yeah. If you could leave that up for
awhile, I would appreciate that.
De Weerd: Okay. The applicant.
Canning: While Daren's getting composed, I can also put the comp plan map up that
shows the whole mile, if you'd like that.
Zaremba: That's the --
De Weerd: The one on -- in our packet, Anna -- if you can show that.
Zaremba: Thank you. I have seen what I need to see, so you can --
De Weerd: If you will, please, state your name and address for the record..
Fluke: Madam Mayor, thank you, My name is Daren Fluke with JUB Engineers, 250
South Beachwood in Boise, representing the applicant in this matter. With me tonight is
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 17 of 76
AI Wallace, our Attorney, and also Wayne Thowless, our Architect, who I hope will have
a chance to talk about some of the design issues. Just as a point of process, I would
love to go through each one of these items raised by the appellants that are not actually
appellants, but people seeking review, and go through them one by one. But you're at a
bit of a disadvantage here, because you haven't heard anything about the project yet
and so I need to go through the project andme nethe rebutta~to daeal wi h Ithe spec'i is
guess I'm asking if we will have adequate
points. Some of it I will be able to c ~ toabe able rto gmake pheerecord tandl getl you
complex project and we really nee
comfortable with what's been designed here.
De Weerd: You have been given 15i1 Wiould be a A ec at d introduced the application,
so if you can do It wlthln 15 minutes, PP
Fluke: Okay. Anna, could we work from the site plan, please. The one back -- thank
you. The project is -- is the Selway Apartments. It consists of ten acres with 171
dwelling units, 17 buildings, 19 percent of units within the project are one bedroom, 67
percent are two bedroom and 14 percent are three bedroom:. There are 278 parking
places and a whole lot of other stuff that we are going to get into. I'm going to -- I want
to talk first about the merits of the appeal. I will be brief, because there aren't any. I
want to talk about the history of the project. I want to talk about the design of the
project, and I'm going to wrap it all up for you and, hopefully, deal with some of their
specific concerns. First, with regard to the merits of the appeal. Your ordinance
specifically states that the appellants have to provide you with a basis for the Notpone
All they did was regurgitate the code for you and say that we didn't comply.
piece of evidence was presented --
De Weerd: Okay. Daren, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I would like everyone to be
respectful. So, if you can try and keep this respectful, I would appreciate it, because I
don't want to set the tone otherwise.
Fluke: Madam Mayor, I apologize if I sounded disrespectful. It was not my intention.
De Weerd: Okay.
Fluke: I do need to make a record and so I will do that and --
De Weerd: I appreciate the record., but the regurgitate and those kind of things., you can
tone down.
Fluke: I apologize. All they did was restate what was in the code and not provide any
evidence. I don't think the basis is there that it complies with your code. I would refer
you to the letter from -- from our attorney, which lays out in very fine detail why this
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 18 of 76
doesn't comply. However, since we are here, let's talk about the project. This project
was originally approved in 2002 as a part of the Lochsa Falls planned unit development.
Many of you were around at that time and probably saw that project -- I know at least
two of you were. At that time planned unit developments did not automatically rezone
all of the portions of the project to -- to their appropriate land use, but it was handled as
a planned unit development, it was a comprehensive project that included almost a
square mile, a very large number of detached single family residential units and a small
number of attached units, as well as some commercial and as well as a public park.
So, all of it was a master planned community and it was always intended to develop in
the fashion that you're seeing here right now. I think you're pretty well familiar with a lot
of the history on it beyond that and so I'm not going to get into that, other than to say
that the city did enter into a development agreement with the owner of the land,, a
binding contract that's binding on both parties and we would like the city to honor that.
With regard to the project design, when we started talking to Rudeen about this almost
a year ago, I told them that compatibility was going to be an issue. Regardless of the
fact that this was already approved, when you have single family next to multi-family, it
tends to raise passions and the first thing we decided was that we had to have a good
site plan and we are very proud of the site plan. We have done a number of things to
mitigate impacts on the surrounding properties. There are four three story buildings
within the project. If you've ever tried to fit 171 units on ten acres, you know that you
have to be creative with your buildings. We didn't want, however, large buildings lording
over single family units, that two story units that are on our property lines. So, we have
clustered the three story buildings here in these four units. These units are all two story
buildings and, then, the units along the northern property line are what we call carriage
units. These have garages beneath them on the ground floor and on the top floor they
have got two single family units, one on each side. An entry here and an entry here. In
scale and massing they are very similar in size to the residential units that are to the
north of them and setback from the property line a similar distance. W that was thelfirst
the -- well, let me back up a little bit and stay on the site plan. So,
thing we did was -- was to design the buildings and lay them out, so that we didn't have
an impact on the surrounding properties. What -- what this did was allow an internal
parking configuration that kept parking places and also the drive aisles away from the
property lines and sort of concentrated the activity of the project internally. You notice
we have got one entrance to the project here off the public right of way. We have a
driveway approach here. This was approved by ACRD and constructed.. It's already
there. We chose to make that an emergency access., just simply to try to mitigate
impacts on surrounding properties. Again, in this particular case those across the street
from us and the headlights departing the project here. The city ordinance has us
backed into a corner with parking and we have got to fit a certain number of parking
places in here, including covered,, uncovered, visitor parkings, and we have done that
and we have done it pretty artfully I think. They fit within the context of the project and,
again, they are laid out in such a way as to mitigate impacts on surrounding properties.
Anna, could we go to some of the building elevations? With regard to building design,
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 19 of 76
we wanted this to look residential, you know, to the grandest extent possible. When we
started the process we were applying for vinyl siding, which we still think is a fine choice
for the project. It didn't have any cultured stone on the front, that was added at the
request of the neighbors. In addition to the color schemes, which we modified
somewhat to match better what was already in the neighborhood. And I'd like for
Wayne to be able to have a chance to come up here and talk a little bit more about the
building design, because a lot of thought and effort and planning has gone into the
buildings that -- that are in the project. Anna, if we could just go forward a couple slides
and see if we can find the carriage units. These are the carriage units right here. We
have designed two different carriage units within the project to sort of break up the
facades and give a little more visual interest to those. These, as I stated, are similar in
scale and massing to the residential product that to is to the north of them and they will
fit in really well. They are setback 24 feet from the property line and they do have a two
foot projection on these windows, So, on the rear that would be 22 foot setback there,
which is our side property line and it is required to be five feet by law -- by your
ordinance that is. So, we think we have done a nice job with the buildings. They have
used a variety of building materials or a variety of siding types within there. They were -
- what we designed initially was all vinyl, but three different types of vinyl and used in
different configurations on the different buildings, so that it didn't have a monotonous
appearance. Again, to be -- it provided a nicer esthetic view to it. With regard to
landscaping, the -- the landscaping is one of the primary ways that -- that we sort of
buffer surrounding properties. You heard a comment about -- if we could see the
landscape plan, Anna. You heard something about headlights here. Well, you have got
a six foot property line all along the fence and you can see that it's been very densely
planted. One of the concessions we made was to bump up our deciduous trees to a
three inch caliper, which is a half an inch higher than what your ordinance requires and
it doesn't sound like much, but I can tell you it is significantly bigger at planting, it gets
taller faster and it's significantly more expensive to plant. As you can see, this is -- this
is densely planted and in an effort to mitigate noise and site impacts along both of our
residential property lines. We think that this -- this project has been designed in a way
that -- that really fits in with its surroundings. There is not a lot of interaction between
the -- between the surrounding single family residential and rh ht of wahisThe Planning
stated, the entrance here is the main entrance to the public g Y
and Zoning Commission and the police department requested that we have an
approach here, which we have agreed to and will install. We are providing another
access to McMillan through the commercial property to the south and another way in
and out. We -- when we started this project, like I said, about a year ago, we had about
three meetings with the staff. We held two neighborhood meetings. We made changes
based on what we heard.. Obviously, the changes didn't go far enough to -- to make the
neighbors happy with what was here, but it's my opinion that we couldn't have done
enough to make them happy, you know, in designing the project. Basically, they don't
like the land use and there is not much that we can do to change that. We have worked
very hard to fit this project into the neighborhood and we would ask you to recognize
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
.Page 20 of 76
that, honor the contract that the city has within the landowner and approve our project
as the Planning and Zoning Commission did. We are comfortable. We didn't get
everything we wanted from the Planning and Zoning Commission, but we are
comfortable with their approval. VUe think -- as you can see from the conditions of
approval, that they really went over backwards to -- to mitigate adverse impacts on
surrounding properties by the impokita littletb t boutdthe build ngs aNl ttlelbitlrmore and,
just have Wayne come up and to
then, we will take any questions if you have got those.
Thowless: Wayne Thowless, LKV Architects. Office address 2600 East Riverwalk
Drive, Boise., representing Rudeen Development. Relative to the buildings themselves,
I would just like to state that particularly if you look at the site plan and the floor plans in
the graphics, you probably have in our report, as well as here on the Powerpoint, you
will see that the buildings are not rectangular or square masses, there is a lot of in and
out undulations in the massing and design of the buildings to breakup the massiveness
of them visually. That, coupled with a two tone color scheme, three different types of
siding, roofing, color that matches the predominate color of roofs in the subdivision, et
cetera, are all mechanisms that we have employed to try to make the architectural
character of the project compatible with the surrounding neighborhood. In the
appellant's comments there were numerous references to technical matters that they do
not feel are going to meeting city ordinance requirements. I would like to assure
Council and that we are working very closely with the City Staff, Fire Department, Public
Works, Planning, to make sure that these detailed design issues do, in fact, meet city
ordinance requirements. The appellant mentioned, for example, a requirement of P&Z
that we meet with or discuss several issues with the police department. We have done
so. The issue with regard to the number of units being served by a given stair turns out
to not be an issue., because each of the buildings has two stairways, not a single one.
So, that issue was resolved and that was mentioned at the previous Planning and
Zoning Commission hearing. Daren, is there anything else specifically you'd like me to
touch on?
Fluke: Thanks, Wayne. Madam Mayor, Daren Fluke, JUB. I'm going to try to go
through. some of the specific items as brought up by the appellants, just to make sure
we -- we don't leave some of this hanging and the Council questioning us on it. With
regard to roofing, we did agree at the Planning and Zoning Commission to use
architectural grade shingles all in black to match what's on surrounding units. That's not
an issue. We do have 6-12 pitch on the roofs. We do have hardy plank and we have
cultured stone on the front. I already talked about headlights not being a problem. The
air compressors are small units for the sma11 carriage units on the side. They are well
buffered by the landscaping, the Planning and Zoning Commission saw the wisdom of
having them there, because, otherwise, they were interfering with the doorways into the
units and I can show you elevations and get into that a little bit more. That's why they
allowed us to have them there. We have provided a pathway system as one of our
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 21 of 76
amenities in there. It loops all through the project and we would be opposed to
eliminating any of that -- any of that, because we think it's a nice amenity. The only --
what you can see here is that we push it back out onto the street -- or the drive aisle
here and, then, pick it up again here. Otherwise, it's a continuous loop throughout the
project. I didn't touch on amenities very much, but we do have a lot in here, including
our clubhouse and fitness room, pool and hot tub, tot lot, path system. We have got a
storage building., picnic areas, and we will have a horseshoe lot as well., as requested by
the P&Z. The pathway connection to Wapoot, which exists right here, it's a platted lot
within Lochsa. We would be happy to not make that connection if the Council so
desires. Staff has been adamant in us making it. We are fine with that. We are fine
with not making it. We think it improves the project for both our neighbors to the north
and for this project, but we don't -- you know, that's not a big deal for us. Parking's
already prohibited on Goddard Creek, so I don't find that to be an issue. Right turn only
on Goddard Creek I believe is unreasonable and would not get through ACRD. One of
the goals of the road system is to have connectivity and to provide automobiles multiple
ways to get around, so that you don't get a concentration °I the standards for offset
That's why you have got full access driveways. This meets a
and all of ACHD's other standards. I don't think they'll let us do it at a right turn only.
May I finish up with drainage quickly?
De Weerd: Well, we -- we afforded the appellant a few more minutes, so if you can
keep it brief.
Fluke: I appreciate it. I will be brief. Drainage. We don't have any ponds designed.
We have -- we are at about 90 percent design right now and we have utilized seepage
trenches within here. Highest seasonal groundwater we found was at about eight feet
and all of that works and complies with city code. It will be all reviewed by your staff in
conjunction with the building permit. Just with regard to schools and other
infrastructure, everything's here. The roads are in place. There are schools around
here. There is irrigation. There is water. There is sewer. This was all master planned
as a part of a much larger project. This -- this project will provide additional
opportunities for the citizens of Meridian. Empty nesters, people whose kids have left,
people whose kids are leaving and would like to live close to their parents, can live in
this project. Through time it will definitely be an amenity to the City of Meridian and
that's why it was approved initially and that's why you ought to approve it now. We just
respectfully request that you affirm the well-reasoned staff recommendation in the
decision of the Planning and Zoning Commission and approve this project as designed.
De Weerd.: Thank you. Council, questions? Mr. Bird..
Bird: Daren, what's your percent of stone or stucco on the front?
Daren: Do you know the answer to that, Wayne?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 22 of 76
Thowless: Wayne Thowless, LKV Architects. Madam Mayor and Councilman Bird, it
varies by building. There are some buildings that have only a little bit of stone at the
entrance columns. There are other buildes avahlabhe.vl cantprovidett em atf aolatea date
in stone. I do not have actual percentag
if you desire.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd.: Uh-huh.
Bird: I would -- I would like -- Wayne, I would like to know what -- what would you say
now, five to 25 percent? Do you have any that hit 40 percent like that the --
Thowless: Councilman Bird, I do not think so. I don't think we have that much stone on
these buildings.
Bird: While I've got the floor I'd like to -- we have got a -- I know they were talking about
Paramount being involved., but what we got from the school district said it's Hunter
Elementary and knowing the location I think Hunter is -- is closer, but -- so, it is Hunter
they say -- in their letter it's Hunter, Sawtooth, and Eagle High School. Anyway, I just
wanted to clarify that.
De Weerd: Council, any other questions?
Bird.: I'd like to know what the percent of stone and stucco is.
De Weerd: Also, how you breakup the back of the -- the apartment.
Thowless: Madam Mayor, the fronts --
De Weerd..: Do you want to put that up there and use the pointer, so everyone can see?
Thowless: The fronts and the backs of each building are virtually identical. They are
what are called double loaded buildings, which means you have residential units on the
back side. You have residential units on the front side. There are stairways on both
front and back. There are balconies, bedroom windows, living room windows, both front
and back. The only buildings that are significantly different between the front and back
are those carriage unit buildings that have the garages at ground level and two
residential units above that are located along the north property line and we do on --
could we have the Powerpoint back up. It's probably easier to look at their -- scroll
ahead to -- that's -- right there. This is t nesele theionaoage doors at the ground IeveL
buildings that faces the driveway. You ca 9
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 23 of 76
This is the elevation that faces the homes to the north. One residential unit is here.
One residential unit is here. This is the back of the garages at ground level. And, then,
as Daren mentioned in his presentation, between this wall of these units and the
property line and existing fence is 24 feet of landscaping with three inch caliper
materials at time of planting.
De Weerd: So, the upper one is the front? The garages?
Thowless: This is the elevation that faces the driveway. The entrance to one of the
units is -- is right here at ground level. There is an interior stair that goes up to the living
units and the entrance is -- to the other units is -- it looks like our light just went out. Oh,
there it is. Is right there and, then, there is an interior stairway to the second residential
unit in this building..
De Weerd: So, there is four per unit?
Thowless: In these buildings there are two residential units per building. They are
duplexes.
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Madam Mayor. A question for Mr. Thowless. I believe your words were the
building designs show a lot of undulation. Explain that to me on the carriage house.
Thowless: To be honest, Councilman Rountree, the carriage units have less primarily
by virtue of their size. They are much smaller buildings compared to the eight-plexes
and the sixteen-plexes and the roof line is broken up, as you can see, with gable
elements. There are the same -- two different types of siding and the two color
schemes, the two different colors of siding on the ends are where the balconies are on
several of the carriage units. On the other carriage unit building design., which isn't on
this graphic, there are actually balconies where the gables are on this particular design.
I don't know if we have a Powerpoint slns. A tharent yrnolteAnnae Thank yououse unit,
but there are two dlfferent building des g pp
Rountree.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: A question on the landscaping on the north side. You talked about utilizing
large caliper trees. Didn't hear any indication of what kind of vegetation you're talking
about, but larger caliper deciduous trees are not going to do a lot for screening. In fact,
the larger the caliper the less screening they are going to provide. So, what -- what's
the design and how is the landscaping actually going to buffer headlights?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 24 of 76
Thowless: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree, the -- we are proposing a mix of
approximately a half dozen different types of deciduous trees, as well as a mixture of
evergreen trees in that landscape buffer on the north and west sides of the project. In
terms of ground level screening, that will be primarily afforded by virtue of the fencing
that is already there. The screening of view from ground I d b tthe canoe es oflthe
windows of the houses or vice-versa, will be over time provide y
trees that we are planting. I would like to mention to Council that as Daren mentioned in
his presentation, the city requirement for setbacks -- side yard setbacks in this zone and
for this type of project, is a fraction of what we are providing. The 24 feet. And,
actually, by ordinance no side yard landscaping or screening is required. So, we are
providing literally hundreds of trees in this project in an effort to provide for screening
and esthetic compatibility between this project and the single family residences, not
because ordinance requires it, but because it's the right thing to do for the sake of
compatibility. So, anytime that vegetative screening is employed, there, of course, is a
period when that screening is not going to be fully effective and that's when the
materials are young, which is why we actually volunteered to provide larger materials at
time of planting than the city requires.
De Weerd: But, remember, our requirements are a minimum.
Thowless: I understand.
De Weerd: Council, any other questions?
Bird: Not at this time.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I had one previously, but on your last comment, explain to me why this is a
side yard and not a rear yard., please.
Thowless: The ordinance -- city ordinance defines front yard as the side of a property
that fronts on the street and North Goddard Creek on the east side of the property or the
right side of the graphics that have been up there on the Powerpoint, that is our front
yard, because that it the street side of our property. The .north and the south property
lines thus are the side yards and the side of the property that's opposite the front, North
Goddard Creek, which is in this case the west property line, is, thus, the rear property
line, as defined by city ordinance.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 25 of 76
Canning: Madam Mayor, I need to clarify that. The issue on multi-family development
actually, when we
is always unclear as to what should be side, front, and rear. So, we,
wrote the Unified Development Code we specifically said for multi-family developo erts
it doesn't matter what property line it is, there is a ten foot setback from any p p Y
line.
Zaremba: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay.
Zaremba: And you are exceeding that ten --
Thowless: We are.
Zaremba: -- anyhow, so -- okay. Back to my original question, which I'm pretty sure
has been answered, but among my notes there was a specific reference to the internal
streets and the fire radiuses on the corners. When you and Mr. Fluke say that you are
working to make sure that all the technical data are correct, I just wanted to specifically
ask you are including the fire radiuses --
Thowless: Yes.
Zaremba: -- in that subject?
Thowless: Yes. Councilman Zaremba, the -- we just -- I think it was -- we had a staff
member two or three weeks ago that met with the fire department and discussed that
particular issue at the particular location that the appellant mentioned and we are
working with the fire department to resolve the turning radiuses at that specific location.
Zaremba: Okay. Thank you.
Borton: Council, any additional questions at this time?
Rountree: Not right now.
Zaremba: Not at this time.
Borton: Thank you, Wayne.
Thowless: Thank you.
Nary: Mr. President?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 26 of 76
Zaremba: Mr. President, I believe Mr. Nary looks like he'd care to say something.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, there was a comment that was made in
the initial appellant's testimony that probably is more addressed by staff than probably
the applicant in this situation and that's regarding Heroes Park. The comment was
made that the city had leased that park out for 25 years and no other amenities were
programmed into that park and that is untrue. At least for the purposes of this record,
the city has a use agreement with PAL Soccer to use that field twice a year during their
spring season and their fall season. There are additional amenities that are
programmed into the current masterf om the Parks Department tolgo nto that leveleof
last month. Mr. Siddoway isn't here
as well as the
detail, but they have met with neighbors in the Lochsa Falls area,
adjoining neighbors of the park and are looking at additional amenities -- essentially, the
amenities that were already programmed are being moved around to different parts of
that particular 25 acres. There is aotntthetsi els Thereuwerensomeyadldtonaaparking
that from one location to anothe
There is a -- basketball courts that are programmed for that park, as well as some in-
line rollerskating type of facility on that park. Roller hockey. So, it isn't an exclusive use
by PAL as was stated. It is not correct that the city has, essentially, relinquished use of
that park or no other amenities are provided, because that isn't -- that isn't correct. The
city has simply granted use by PAL Soccer for their two main seasons that they have,
but that is all. So, I just wanted to make that clear for the record.
De Weerd: Okay.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Zaremba: I might be able to answer questions that Steve Siddoway would have
answered, since I have been going to parks commission meetings, The area that Mr.
Nary mentioned is considerable. This area is not being used by the soccer people.
This area here is not being used by the soccer people. This area over here is not being
used by the soccer people. They have probably what amounts to half of the park, if it
were, and not for the full year. torntheiNt urnaamentsh b t ar arge port on of the park is
year where they have use of tha
not taken up by them and not all year.
De Weerd: Okay. Anything further? We did have a couple of statements or questions
raised about fire and so, Chief, can you respond to that? Kyle, would you mind moving
the -- the board right there. Thank you. I like to see the staff eye to eye.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 27 of 76
Anderson: Madam Mayor, Councilmen, yeah, there was a number of questions that
were raised about fire code issues. Reading our plan review on this particular project,
all those issues were addressed. Our fire marshal, who does that work, is not here
tonight, but what he typically does is with a red pencil goes over those plans and
outlines all those areas that are potential areas or that don't look like they meet the code
requirements and, then, we sit down with the applicant and address those and it sounds
like that is being done in this case. So, I was very impressed with the -- I believe it was
Glen's testimony and he did a very good job of articulating a number of things in the fire
code. So, Glen, if you're looking for work after you retire as a school teacher, come see
me. But we are hoping that all those are done with the review ng addressed and I
guarantee you they will be by the time we
De Weerd: Okay. So, Ron, there is no need for a turnaround at those two points that
you notice?
Anderson: If they are 150 foot or less, they will not need a turnaround. If they are 150
feet or more, then, they will need that turnaround and the turning radiuses -- they must
meet the 28 foot interior and 48 foot exterior turning radiuses, so if we have to lose
.parking spots at the end of those, then, that will happen, but those issues will be
addressed.
De Weerd: So, they back out?
Anderson: What's that?
De Weerd: Will they back out, then? It's going to be the same issue our trash provider
is going to have as well.
Anderson: If that road is 150 foot or less, then, yes, they back out of that. But keep in
mind a fire truck is about 30 feet long in itself, so the shorter distance is not an issue, it's
when they are backing greater distances, like a full city block, but it's not unusual to
they will be able to back
back up short distances like that. As far as the internal vehicle,
be able to drive out forward. It's
out of the parking spots with the access road and, then,
just larger vehicles like trash trucks and delivery trucks and fire trucks that would have
issues there. The only one that I see that really looks like it's in question is this small
leg that comes back around to the -- on the right-hand side of the project there.
De Weerd.: Okay. Lieutenant, do you have any comments?
Stowe: Madam Mayor, Members of Council, do you have any specific questions?
De Weerd: Council, any questions for the police at this time?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 28 of 76
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Rountree: Was the representation on the Council between the police and the applicant
correct and issues have been resolved that were --
Stowe: There was an issue of the secondary access and I was not in attendance at the
meetings. I believe that was Lieutenant Overton that was. In looking at the -- in looking
at this, it does raise two concerns that I have and one of them has to do with the
secondary access. It's very close to the primary access up there on the right-hand side
and towards the back there is no access. It looks like there might be one down there in
the southwest corner. It may be going into a field, but that doesn't do us any good
unless that comes all the way through to McMillan and does give us that access and I
think the fire department and paramedics would feel the same way. The other concern I
see is in landscaping. Too much landscaping can create hazards also. We try to
maintain a two foot, six foot rule, in which shrubbery isn't any higher than six foot,
canopies of trees aren't any lower than -- or I'm -- two foot for the shrubbery and six foot
for the canopy on the trees. And that gives us a site window as patrol cars are driving
by and it eliminates hiding spots. So, I just want to make sure that the shrubbery
doesn't -- and landscaping doesn't become so thick that it provides natural hiding spots.
De Weerd: Okay.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, since ACHD has joined our staff this evening, a question
about Goddard and the no parking status and whether or not that's official and if it's
official is ACHD planning on posting that.
Richardson: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree and other Council Members, it looks
like Goddard Creek Way is a residential collector and, typically, no parking is what is
required on the residential collectors. If it's not currently signed with that restriction,
then, the highway district or the applicant could provide that signage.
Rountree: Okay.
Borton: Madam Mayor, could --
De Weerd: Can you repeat that, Christy?
Richardson: Goddard is classified as a residential collector street, which, typically, the
highway district does restrict parking on residential collectors. If it's not currently signed
that way, either the highway district or the applicant can make sure that that gets done.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 29 of 76
De Weerd: Okay. Okay. Anything further, Council? Okay. We do have a number of
people that have signed up against this project. As I read your name -- and I apologize
in advance if I mutilate the pronunciation.. If you would like to provide testimony when
call your name, please, come forward at that time. I will note if you're in favor of or
opposed to and we will start. Beverly D'Kirk signed up against. Would you like to
provide testimony? I'm sorry, if you need to provide testimony, you do need to come
forward. Okay. Thank you. And her husband John. Also signed up against. Sarah
Markfield Katcher signed up against Thank you. Carl Miller signed up against. Thank
you. If you will, please, state your name and address.
Miller: Yes, Madam Mayor. Carl Miller, 2295 Apgar.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Miller: And my concern is the traffic. Everybody says -- they are saying Goddard is a
residential collector, but Apgar is not designed for that, it's a narrower street, but it is a
straight shot through. There is a park on Apgar and at any given time when school gets
out you have 25 or 30 children down there playing on that street. Something needs to
be done ahead of time, such as a no turn lane, to prevent cars from going through
there. We have already had one accident on there where a car sped through there and
went through a fence. If that would have been a child sitting out there, there would be
no more child. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Jaqualee Valas. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Whoever
signed up after her. Maybe -- begins with a P and last name with an H I think. Why
don't I just open it -- this up to whoever would like to provide testimony to please come
forward.. And if some else menfionscy nu make theab stluseaofbyoulr time~ras wel\I as
hands after the testlmony and we
Council.. So, sir, some forward.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, while he's coming forward, I would comment that the sign-up
sheet that you hold is part of the public record and it does show who came and
expressed an opinion for or against. Just because we don't read through it doesn't
mean that it's not being noticed..
De Weerd': It will be noted for the record and also for the record everyone signed up on
this list is signed up against. So, sir, if you will, please, state your name and address.
Grant: My name is Melvin Grant. I live at 2314 West Divide Creek Street in Lochsa
Falls.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Meridian City council
November 27, 2007
Page 30 of 76
Grant: Madam Mayor and Members of fihe Council, my concern is that while this
approval of this project back in 2002 made all kinds of sense to the city development
plan at that time and probably still does today, my concern is that from 2002 -- I guess it
was August 6th -- at least that's what that map shows right there -- until early this year
no one knew -- and no one -- I mean us, the homeowners -- knew of this project. That
map doesn't show a high density project, so if you come to City Hall, as the attorney told
us in the June letter, you should check it out yourself -- if we came here it didn't show
any high density residential. So, I'm sure there is no poison pen letters somewhere that
said we are going to cover this up. That's not how it works. But you, the Council and
the Mayor, you're not checking up on these builders and what they are saying to people.
You're not following up on what -- the decisions you make. That's my concern.
De Weerd: Thank you, sir. You know, I will say for the record that when this -- when
this project came through, certainly three of us up here were on -- were sitting up here
at that time and it was an open field and so I can say that it did make sense at the time.
This is the first time I think the three of us that sat up here found that the development
agreement noted the exact number. This is the first time -- and I think it's the only time
that this is -- we have ever seen this.. So, it is unusual for this Council as well. I guess
in short, the development to the east of it, Paramount, when people purchased their
home they see the entire development. We did not know you were not seeing the entire
development. When people purchased in Paramount you saw the entire development.
We did not know that the neighbors purchasing in the subdivision was not seeing the
entire development. Now, I don't know if that is the responsibility or a roll of the city
government. I think that is something of our development community, as well as our
real estate community. When these planned developments were developed, they
showed the net density, and that is what our map showed.. Since we have changed
that. This didn't get changed. It's not an excuse. It is what we did at that time. And so
while we do approve these -- oh, my time is up. Sorry, I guess I have to cut myself off.
Berg: You can close in a minute.
De Weerd: But, you know, I did want to respond to that, because I do understand the
concern that has been communicated and expressed and -- and this is kind of an
anomaly to us that at the time it showed what the net density of the entire planned
community was and it dch lotdwas aturchasedt that thathwashn't noted on (your plat and
what was put out as ea p ou know, I guess lesson
that is what is noted on others. So, that the inconsistency, y
learned, we will make sure that the entire plat is shown on CC&Rs and at signing your
purchase, but it's hard for the city to police that. I think that's a real estate thing, but --
sir?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 31 of 76
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would comment that I was not on the City Council at the time that this came
through, but I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission and am familiar with the
project from being on the recommending body that saw this before the Planning and
Zoning Commission saw it. So, most of us have some familiarity with it. And the Mayor
makes a point and., actually, the point has been made I think by staff and others that we
have changed our process since this happened. There was a time where the whole
overall picture was looked at and you averaged the density over the whole thing and as
the Mayor pointed out, this piece was not considered separately,. it was considered as a
part of the whole. When you do the math on that, the whole thing is an R-4. There are
a lot of reasons why we changed that a {t{ ode{floansgto do a cotmmerci I thingarwas an
the developers, because when they w g
exception -- maybe a whole area was R-4 and because of the way our code was written
at the time they could have an exception for a commercial area, they went to get a loan
for that and the lenders would say you can't -- we can't lend you commercial money in
an R-4 zone. Well, that began us realizing that we weren't getting out the kind of
information that people needed based on what was approved., that you couldn't look at
.something that was approved and unless you read the whole DA or development
agreement, excuse me, unless you read the whole development agreement or went
through all of the minutes of the meetings, some of these little details didn't show up and
some of the little details aren't so little, as we are discovering on this one. And I guess
the only thing I can say in defense of the city, we have since changed the process, so
that even if you have a large area that is broken up, it is apparent from the maps when
something is different from the surrounding uses and we now do identify the correct
zone of what's actually going to be put there, not just as an exception to another zone
and we have from time to time actually been going back and rezoning things when we
found them. This one didn't get rezoned, but we are at least trying to improve the way
that the information is found and given out.
De Weerd: Thank you. Yes.
Crawford: My name is Eric Crawford, 2607 West Anatoli.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Crawford: You're welcome.. Madam Mayor and City Council, one of my questions is in
regard to traffic flow, I guess one of the concerns I have. If I understand it correctly, the
-- upon completion the only exits will be onto Goddard Creek and when I look at it
roughly 171 units, you just throw some rough numbers out there and say 350 vehicles,
two vehicles per unit, and you figure on the low side one quarter of those people work
regular business hours, that's roughly 90 cars coming out onto Goddard Creek between
roughly 6:30 and 9:30 in the morning and I'm wondering where all that traffic's going to
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 32 of 76
go, because that's a heck of a lot of cars that, then, need to be managed and with them
only exiting onto Goddard, it doesn't give us -- it doesn't give a lot of options and really
overweighs Goddard for all the residents of Kelly Creek and Lochsa Falls.
De Weerd: Good.. Thank you. And to poll the audience, all those that agree with that
statement, please, raise your hand. Thank you. Okay. Further testimony? Yes,
ma'am.
Nelson: My name is Rachael Nelson. I live at 2479 West Wapoot. I just wanted to
comment regarding the school district and the schools. Last -year it was Hunter. They
changed the school district lines this year. So, anything north of McMillan will go to
Paramount. I have a third grader at Paramount and the schools are -- it's extremely
impacted. She has 32 children in her class. They trip over each other trying to get their
backpacks. The teacher can't even get them to get together within 15 minutes. So, I'm
very concerned about the schools and what impact this is going have., but it is definitely
Paramount.
De Weerd': Thank you. All those indicating same testimony. Thank you. Yes, sir.
Bellamy: Madam Mayor, Council, my name is John Bellamy. I live at 2464 West
Wapoot. I have a number of concerns. I for one also checked the plot, it was an R-4. I
have two young children. I wanted to raise my family in a quiet neighborhood. This is
not conducive to that. During the CUP meeting that we had previously I brought up a
point on the CC&Rs during rebuttal I was informed that this property will not be
required to adhere to any CC&Rs of the surrounding subdivisions. A lot of talk has
been given on landscaping. They have made concessions. They want to put in larger
trees, they want to put in more trees. Great. I'm all for it. However, that land out there
sits on a layer of caliche. I have replaced three trees in my property since June of '06
when I moved in. What is going to happen with this landscaping -- they said they are
going to put it in. Are they going to replace it when it dies? Are they going to maintain it
and are they going to keep it up. The -- some of my neighbors have the same issue.
Landscaping is very difficult to keep maintained growth there. They do die and I don't
want, to see this property with a bunch of dead trees. Furthermore, promises a
developer makes at this point in time for maintenance and upkeep, what happens if the
developer sells this property? All promises are now null and void. We have nothing.
I'm worried about the area in front of the development in the CUP meeting. They
mention that that will be a commercial development going in. Corner of Ten Mile and
McMillan, we have a nice beautiful looking little strip mall. It's sitting empty. It has been
since it's completion approximately a year ago. We don't have the commercial property
out there to support this type of project. A lot of testimony has been given that this was
approved in 2002 under the Lochsa Falls development. In my uneducated mind what I
am .seeing is that the original developer has parceled out this piece of this property and
has sold it to other developers. This developer has purchased this for the high density
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 33 of 76
and he's piggy backing on the 2002 improvement. My question is why did the original
developer sell it off, obviously, he foresaw the future, saw it didn't fit, cut his losses and
run. And for the record I am opposed. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Yes, sir.
Shilton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, my name is James Shilton, I live at
2351 West Quintail in Bridgetower. A couple of things I want to build on, a little bit
about what the Mayor commented on and why we think we have been deceived a little
bit. When we looked -- my wife and I looked for a place to live a couple years ago, we
went to Woodbridge is one of the first places we went to. Woodbridge handed us a
brochure with a web link of future development and whatnot. Showed Locust Grove
having the overpass. Well, right there we said, well, didn't -- we don't want to live there,
so we will go onto somewhere else. We went over the Paramount, showed that there
was going to be a high school next to it. We didn't want to live there, because we know
there is a high school there. Over here we didn't get that option. All of a sudden, you
know, we see this, so I'd just like to say that that was -- I do agree with you that
sometimes maybe it's real estate people that need to tell us what's going on. The other
thing I wanted to go into is to -- about the carriage houses. If they don't have pictures of
them, we do. We have taken pictures of the carriage houses during a presentation that
we gave and I don't think we are going to give it, but we did have pictures of the
carriage houses and I wish that all of you would take a look at those if you do. If you
don't have them, we have -- we do have actual pictures of those in other areas.
De Weerd: I believe that was given to us with the petition, if it's that same disk.
Shilton: Yeah. Well, now these guys could -- would be the only ones that could tell you
if it's the exact design as the other, but they do look the same. They have the -- all the
garages on the bottom and, then, acouple -- you know, the windows on top and
everything and interested on that. I`II also note that when I visited some of their other
facilities, that most of those garages and a lot of that stuff was used as storage and not
for garage -- not for vehicle use. The other concerns, of course, were fire. As the fire
department was talking about, they had -- or were trying to work with the developer.
However, I would like to mention one other thing. This is a commercial building., so to
speak. When the kids come in or somebody comes in and they pull a pull station and a
fire alarm goes off, it's going to ring outside. The bells are going to go off, the people
are going to evacuate the buildings, is that not true? I'm just --
De Weerd: Chief, I'll ask you after this.
Shilton: Yeah. I'm sorry.
De Weerd: Yes. Thank you.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 34 of 76
Shilton: But, anyway, the point I'm trying to make is when they do that kind of stuff, if
they are trying to alarm the rest of the building., if your next door neighbor's on fire, you
want to know. Well, as those bells go off it would seem to me that you're going to be
waking up the neighborhood, too. Now, if it's a real fire, of course, everybody wants to
be woke up. But if it's not and it's just a false alarm or nuisance alarm, then, you're
going to have that kind of a nuisance going on, as well as light coming in. They also
said they were going to plant trees in the back. Leaves fall off in the wintertime, so I jusl
thought I'd put that in. The other part that I'm really concerned about is --
De Weerd: If you can, please, wrap up.
Shilton: Okay. The 26 feet that's between the parking spots for the fire trucks, I'm a
little worried about that, because in some of their other areas they have big trucks, as
was pointed out, and they couldn't get through. And the last part I would say is the
drainage. If you notice that through there they have -- their walkway goes right through
their drainage fields. Now, you can't see it on here, but some of these corner places,
they indicate are going to be drainage fields and I really question that. Yes. Those are
drain fields. And, you know, we thought they were ponds., because that's what we have
in Bridgetower and all the other places. So, I would say if you're going to put a walkway
through the drainage area -- and I don't believe the eight feet that they quoted. I'm
sorry. I .know that we talked to the CUP people of -- the Planning and Zoning about the
CUP last time on September 20th, (believe -- right. They said that they also believed
that the water table was higher than eight feet -- or lower I guess it would be. You
know, more like a foot, two feet during the wintertime. We have terrible drainage
problems out there. So, I don't know how they are going to do it. I really don't. I think
they are dreaming if they think they can drain that much. That's it.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Shilton:: Thank you very much.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: Mr. -- is it Shilton?
Shilton: Yes.
Borton: In your testimony at P&Z and again today you made reference to the water
table, you had said three feet at P&Z. Did you have something that you were citing for
that?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 35 of 76
Shilton: Well, I -- the drainage areas that we have in our -- in our areas are maybe
three feet and they fill with water and, hopefully -- they have been doing a lot of work in
Bridgetower to get those fixed, because they were standing more than 24 hours and
that's the limit that they were allowed to have.. And so they have dug deeper and
deeper and deeper and they finally got it into that. But I know that everybody around
there., if you open up your meter boxes and whatnot, the water is right there in the
wintertime. It's right at the thing. It's not eight feet down, it's right there.
De Weerd: You do, you have one up by the park that still is full of water.
Shilton: Yes.
De Weerd: And I mean it's been full of water year around.. I did bring that up to ACHD.
Shilton: And I will quote this. When I brought that up at the Planning and Zoning
Commission on September 20th about the drainage problem that I believe they are
going to have, they promised that they would look into that and address that, so --
De Weerd: Thank you.
Shilton: Thank you.
De Weerd: Everyone's raising their hands. I guess I'm just taking it for granted that you
all agree with whatever is said up here, unless it's the development; right?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would ask a Public Works person, if they are here, a question.
Radek: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: Among the technical things that the applicant has to do, isn't there a
requirement that they have a certified water engineer or hydrologist or some -- I forget
what the term is -- review their plans and --
Radek: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba, there is -- a review of the drainage
facilities are part of a Public Works civil plan review. I'm not aware that there were any -
- any issues with this one. It does require that a professional engineer certify that the
drainage system is going to work.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 36 of 76
Zaremba: Thank you.
De Weerd: Kyle, do you know -- and I can ask the development this, but is this a slab
on grade?
Radek: Madam Mayor, I'm not aware of what the foundations are planned on this.
De Weerd:: Because we do look at those a little bit differently in terms of drainage, from
my understanding.
Radek: Madam Mayor, maybe the applicant could comment on the foundation design.
De Weerd.: Okay. I will ask them. Okay. Yes, sir.
Canning: Madam Mayor, while they are going up, it is slab on grade.
De Weerd.: Thank you. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Lorick: My name is James Gorick, 2496 West Wapoot.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Lorick: I would like to -- in the last meeting with the Zoning Commission, they had said
that they -- the trip meter was placed on Goddard and I think they registered 1,700 trips
and I don't know what the length of period was and I think it said it was 2,700 was
allowed., but I don't know -- for the record.., if you guys are aware, that when they did that
that day on McMillan Road there was construction going on, so, basically, everybody
was probably going through other exits. I would say that it's fair that that be redone
again. to get an accurate trip meter that's going through Goddard Creek, because I think
that was an inaccurate reading.. I don't think it's fair to the community as a whole.
Secondly, they are talking about the extra costs that are going into landscaping. That's
definitely made up for the free fencing that they are getting on the east side and the
north side and the landscaping should be better, because it's only a five foot fence,
instead of a six foot fence. The other thing, too, my concern is with 2,700 markets
currently on the market in the valley and renters market going up three percent to -- or
four percent to almost seven percent, is there covenants as far as -- or a rule that says
have to look at a big white sign that says renters wanted, you know, and are they going
to list the price and if these are high end, knowing it's going to seven percent, I mean
how far do they drop and that's my concern. And can they subsidize low income
housing. Not that that's a concern, I don't have any issues with that, I'd just like to have
that addressed up front. As with the rest of us, you know, we built our house and our
dream homes, but, unfortunately, that's kind of changed and the thing that is -- I hear
that -- I kind of want to know, is it's --.you know, what kind of compromise is there going
Meridian City council
November 27, 2007
Page 37 of 76
to be when this goes in. You know, are you guys going to -- who is going to monitor --
you know, are there going to be speed bumps put in? Are they going to put additional
stop signs in? I know some of these people that live on the stretch that goes down
towards Linder, I mean huge concerns. If I had kids, I mean I would have for sale signs,
as do about probably fifteen other homes along that stretch of that, for sale signs
already posted. I don't know if you guys have even taken the time to drive out there and
take a look, but it's definitely not -- and what's ironic is as I walked into the room today
right up here in the front lobby you guys have this .book and it's Meridian In The Middle
and here is a big article about Bridgetower --
Nary: Pull the mike closer to you, sir. Pull the mike closer. The mike. Just so that you
can be heard.
Gorick: It's called Bridgetower Subdivision and this book was in your lobby and it talks
about family values, greenbelts, walking, how it's all family atmosphere. You know, the
safety of the neighborhood and everything else. Granted, it does talk a little bit about
commercial development, but I mean just over the course of the last two minutes I have
heard the Mayor talk about accountability, lesson learned. I believe I heard you talked
about -- I can't remember what the lesson was on that, but how, you know, it wasn't put
out there, but, you know, if these articles continue to go out, who am I to believe?
mean do I -- where else do I move to? I mean, you know, your guys' master plan, the
family value plan, that's one of the reasons I moved out there and I didn't know it was R-
17. I mean how do I trust the City Council knowing where I'm going to move to in the
future? I mean, you know, I read the books, are you guys telling these people that
publish the articles -- because I'm sure they are getting their information somewhere.
Wfiere is --
De Weerd: That article was on Bridgetower.
Gorick: What?
De Weerd: The article was on Bridgetower.
Gorick: Correct.
De Weerd: And it is family friendly.
Gorick: It is family friendly. I'm just saying that whole area -- and I'm just -- just -- it just
kind of takes away from the values as far as what most of us moved there for and it was
supposed to be the close knit neighborhood -- I mean I pay 600 bucks in covenants a
year; right? Am I going to have all this traffic parked in front of my house out there?
Every time I call a cop is she going to come and say, hey, you're illegally parked. By
covenants, they can't be there. I got to have my car in the driveway or I got to have it in
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 38 of 76
my garage. Can they park there? Legally they can, because it's a street. Goddard
Creek they can't, but on the other street they can. Who is responsible for removing the
oil stains that get left in my street? Who is responsible for saying, hey, that junker's
been sitting out there for four days, I need it moved.. Are these going to come and put a
ticket on it and six days later they are going to tow it and., then, the person that lives in
the apartment is going to come egg my house? I don't know. But Ijust -- I just hope
that some of those get -- get addressed and that as we move forward and we face a lot
of these issues, that you guys, you know, are willing to compromise and help us out.
Thanks for your time.
Bird: Sir? Sir?
De Weerd: Sir.
.Bird: I've got a question for you. You made a statement that there was 14 or 15 houses
for sale along the -- along the road.
Gorick: I would say in that whole entire area.
Bird: Because of traffic?
Gorick: No. Because of the apartments.
Bird: They are sold because of -- either being sold because of the apartments now,
not --
Gorick: Correct.
Bird: You were stating about the traffic.
Gorick: No. I'm saying about -- I'm sure some of them are going to be because of that
traffic, because they haven't completed that road all the way through Linder, but once
they complete that all the way through Linder, that's just going to -- and that road right
there through Goddard Creek, if you follow that all the way through, it goes through a
loop-d-loop and., then., it goes out onto Chinden, there is cars going. through there 55
miles an hour all the time right now and between 7:00 and 8:00 p.m. there is like six
bus stops along that road and it's just -- you just want to go out there and park your
vehicle, you know, just -- just to get them to slow down. It's just nuts. And that's what
you guys are going to have to realize in a year or two when these get built is people
coming back saying we need the speed bumps, we need the stop signs, we need all
this and you guys -- you guys are going to have to help us out here. So, that's going to
be the future.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 39 of 76
Bird.: Thank you.
De Weerd: If I could ask you to hold your applause, that would -- yes, Chris.
C.Fries: Chris Fries. 2787 West Wapoot. Madam Mayor, City Council, a couple issues
just to touch on. I know several of my neighbors, three or four minimum, just within 11
houses, 11, 12 homes, have put their homes on the market -- you know, we have all.
built these homes, put a lot of our hard earned money into them in an area,
unfortunately, that we were misled, more likely than nothing else, but by the developer.
And these homes are still for sale. These -- I know several of my neighbors have had
people that were interested in their homes and as soon as these people inform that
there is going to be apartments behind them, these people have walked. The home
value -- I mean I'm not a realtor and definitely wouldn't want to be one, not right now,
but I know that the property values that we are going to lose because of these homes is
going to be very tremendous and everybody on that street -- I mean we are in it for the
long haul at this point, because we are never going to see the money that we paid for
these homes back. The traffic -- I mean we can go on for days discussing all the issues
that we are going to have with traffic. I mean it's a busy community and subdivision as it
is. The entrance there at Goddard Creek and McMillan is -- I feel myself is a dangerous
intersection. You know, when you pull up to that intersection the stop signs are very far
off to the sides, it's a very wide intersection, and I don't know about the rest of these
people, but occasionally I have found myself you pull too far through the intersection to
see to where you're going to. You know, it's just -- you know, economically this is going.
to hurt the entire community, you know, the money brought to the community by this,
the impact fees, that may help the city and the community initially, but I do not feel that
this will help the community in the long -- in the long term. That's it. Thank you.
De Vl/eerd: Thank you, sir. Okay. All those -- thank you. Okay.
Boston: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Boston; I see scattered throughout some school age kids. If there is anybody who has
young kids and they need to get home or get out of here, if they want to jump to the
front of the line to testify -- I don't know if that helps you out. I just saw a couple scurry
out, so if there is somebody that needs to take care of somebody and wants to testify,
I'd invite you to jump up front. Going once -- okay.
De Weerd: Thank you, Joe. Yes, sir.
Pollock: My name is Russ Pollock. 2773 West Wapoot Drive. I do have school age
kids and hopefully they are home in bed right now. I just -- I wanted to echo some of
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November 27, 2007
Page 40 of 76
the concerns that I think you have heard a lot of tonight. Again, we could talk a long
time about traffic, about schools, and all these types of things and I do echo those same
concerns. We spent a lot of money on our home, premium price, and wanted to stay
there for a long time. The thing that I really wanted to touch base -- why I wanted to
stand up tonight, though, was to kind of address Mayor de Weerd and David Zaremba --
how are you?
Zaremba: Fine. How are you?
Pollock: The comment that you made earlier -- and Idon't -- I want to be careful here,
because I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm not highly educated in the
planning and zoning. and how this all works and I certainly haven't done the research
and put forth the efforts that Glen and Tracy and Chris have. They have done a lot of
work on this and I think that, in and of itself, speaks -- I'm sure you see this quite a bit,
you know, somebody gets in an uproar about this, that, or the other, we all have
differences, but this has gone on quite awhile and there has been a lot of -- pretty
passionate about this. I think what I wanted to -- what I'm trying to say, I guess, was if
heard you correctly, I know you have spent sometime and you have visited the site and
I appreciate that and you have gone out and I think you're aware of the neighborhood
and so forth. I think the point was made that -- and this is the first time that you have
seen this. Maybe this is a unique situation. Mr. Zaremba, if I heard you correctly, in a
nutshell maybe there was some flaws here, maybe this isn't quite right. I felt this way
and I think a lot of the people behind me have felt this way for a long time and that's why
we are here today. I think there are some flaws here. I don't -- I don't think it fits. I
don't think it's the right thing to go there, for a lot of different reasons. But I guess, you
know, I'm a small business owner, we try and teach our kids one thing and I think there
is an opportunity here to make right a wrong and if I -- if I could say anything tonight, I
guess that's the point that I would like to get across is, you know, there is a lot of
concerns, you're going to hear a lot of them, but if that can be done, everybody makes
mistakes, you know, things have got to -- there is Hitches and everything's got to be
worked through. But it wasn't quite right, can we make it right and that's what I would
like to see. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, sir.
Valas: Madam Mayor --
De Weerd: You can pull that down if you'd like.
Valas: Yeah. I am a little shorter.
De Weerd: Thank you
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 41 of 76
Valas: Madam Mayor, City Council Members. This is probably going to sound a little
familiar to you --
De Weerd: If you will state your name and address.
Valas: My name is Paul Valas. I live at 2704 West Cedar Grove in Kelly Creek.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Valas: And this letter is probably going to sound a little familiar to you, because I did
send it to you. It starts out -- and it deals more with the procedure than we are talking
about. I said I attended the meeting on September 20th and I became aware that the
Commissioners had made up their minds in advance to okay the permit and there was
discussion over the color of the paint and the shingles and so on. The City Attorney
made it clear that the city had no choice but to grant the permit. The thought occurred
to me that if I come before the Council and obtained a permit ten years ago to build a
bar and a dance hall and I sat on that permit for say seven or eight years, in the
meantime, they had built up subdivisions and schools across the street and so on, when
came back and said I'm ready to build, I probably would have been told you should
have built that while you had the chance. Which brings up the question: Why didn't the
developers build this at the beginning? In other words, when there would have been no
opposition and easily gone through? Well, the answer to that is money. They new darn
good and well if they had built this in the beginning it would have devalued every lot
next to it and to a diminishing amount as it went away. Now, some may say this is
smart business practices, some might say it's a little bit bordering on fraud. But they
knew that there was no disclosure laws in the state of Colorado -- or in the state of
Idaho. Excuse me. I'm from Colorado. There is state -- there is no disclosure laws on
new construction. So, you don't have to say anything, you just have to sit there and be
quiet and you -- even if somebody asks a lot of questions and comes up and they find
out it's zoned R-4, it still doesn't bring up a big red flag. A lot of people here think they
have been had and I think they have, too. All you have to do to do this is -- get away
with this is just sit there and be quiet. It's the worst lie of all. It's a lie of omission. And I
know the Council members -- the remedy of this is -- probably is disclosure laws for the
State of Idaho that a lot of other states have. At the least this was a deceptive practice.
Waited until the last house was built before they even brought this up. They knew darn
good and well if they would have built it in the first place what would have happened.
So, I think -- I don't think there should be -- the Council should reward these people with
type of behavior. There is an old axiom in the law that's the basis of most the laws that
we have today and it says that no person should be allowed to act in such a manner
that it's detrimental to the society as a whole. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you, sir. Thank you. Further testimony? Yes. If you will, please,
state your name and address.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 42 of 76
Hayes: My name is Mindy Hayes. I live at 2674 West Divide Creek Street. I'd also like
to speak for part of the real estate community. When my husband and I, who is a proud
Meridian Fire Fighter, thank you very much for the opportunity to make home here in
Meridian -- I acted as the real estate agent as the buyer's representative and I worked
very closely with the listing agent, who was working for the builder. As far as I know
there are probably about three or four builders for our community and working hand in
hand with them they assured me -- we compared plat maps and it was thoroughly
discussed before we put our earnest money down that this area would be filled with
luxury townhomes, possible soft commercial, which the details on that would be
dentist's office, attorney's offices, things like that. Like what we see at the front of --
what is that one, over on Locust Grove, right by the fire department. At any .rate, if there
had been .any indication that this type of development would have gone in, there is no
way that I would have made my home here and I don't believe that the other realtors
working for the builders were aware that this development had been approved.
Otherwise, they wouldn't have advised and discussed with the other respective realtors
that that was going to be going in there. They would have lost sales. And I'm currently
a lender. My husband's very happy working, you know, at a fire department for
Meridian. We love our city. But I'm really concerned that our community is being put on
the altar as a sacrificial Iamb. Please don't make an example of us. There are plenty of
local developers who would be more than happy to work in line with Meridian's true
vision and would be much more sensitive to our concerns as the communities being
affected.. In fact, Action Real Estate and Mark Bottles are wonderful people. If the
developers would like to offer up their property for sale, I'm sure that there are a lot of
people who would be interested and would make better use of this property. That's all I
have to say.
De Weerd: Thank you. Look at all those land buyers. Okay. Yes, ma'am.
Olman: My name is Linda Olman and 1 live at 2735 West Root Creek Street and I'm
against and for all the reasons, basically, that have been stated. But I have a concern
and my concern is when and if these apartments do go in, what's going to be happening
with the parking during the construction on Goddard Street for all the equipment. There
is no roads going into this yet, so, therefore, there is going to be, you know, lumber
being brought in and all the equipment and stuff. I mean parking on Goddard Street, it's
going to be a muddy mess. There is going to be lots of congestion and how is that
actually going to be handled? Just a concern that I have on that. There is no room on
Goddard for parking of any of that type of equipment.
De Weerd: Thank you. We will ask for a response for that.
Olman; Thank you.
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November 27, 2007
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De Weerd: Thank you. Everyone that agrees with that? Thank you.
Clizbe: Madam Mayor, City Council, my name is Dan Clizbe, 2668 West Los Flores
Drive. Bridgetower.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Clizbe: I have also been asked by Don Fleck if may hand a letter to yourself and
Council members. I'm one of the Californians that moved here and I have to admit that.
But sitting in my home in San Diego, I -- on the Internet I did look at the R-4 that was
listed for the city and I'm sure the gentlemen who are wanting to build the apartments
have done their best with what they have to work with. However, what we have is a
square peg trying to go into a round hole. We do not have any three story homes
around where I live. My house backs up to Meridian -- or to -- excuse me, to McMillan
and I will be looking at three story homes -- or three story apartments. I will be looking
at the apartments right there. I came here with this vision of the City Council taking care
of the citizens and really watching out for the people of Meridian. That's why I moved
here. I moved away from congestion. I didn't want to move into congestion. So,
everybody can have an opportunity to change wrongs that they have made and this is a
wrong. By approving this, this would be a serious wrong for this entire community.
Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Thank you. Further testimony? Yes, sir.
Sanford: My name is Corey Sanford.. I live at 2199 West Apgar Creek. I just want to
reiterate the reason why most of us are here and that's because of our values. We
value our homes and our money. We value our families. We value our safety. We
value our health. We value our children. We value their education. And we feel like the
City of Meridian has handed that to strangers. And we have trusted you to be on our
side and I .just want to say that the trust is still there, I hope that you will be on our side.
We all want what's best for Meridian. We all want what's best for our family. We want
to raise families here and we want to take it back out of their hands and give it to you.
So, please, use that trust wisely. Thank you..
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Further testimony? Yes.
Layton: My name is Sandra Layton and I live in the second house in from Goddard
Creek and that entire row is parking.
De Weerd: Your address?
Layton: Oh. 2545 West Wapoot.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 44 of 76
De Weerd.: Thank you.
Layton: And when I'm in my bottom level I have all back windows and I see the entire
lot, except for about the first six feet from the fence. And I see every headlight and I am
really worried about having -- being bombarded with headlights on a daily basis, every
morning and every night. And I'm very -- I mean I would like to invite you to my home
and just take a look, because it's -- it is about six feet is all that's protected by that
fence. And I see every weed.. So, I'm saying you're welcome to come over, anyone of
you. Okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Rountree: Got to be careful if you raise your hand, we are all coming over.
De Weerd: Yes, sir.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Could I ask for the display to go back to a wider view and the one that I liked
before would be a nice one. Thank you.
Hessing: My name is Matt Hessing. I live at 2745 West Wapoot Drive.
De Weerd.: Thank you.
Hessing: Thank you for visiting our house, Mayor de Weerd. We did talk to you for
awhile. The main concern that my wife and I both have -- we have four young children
and our children ride their bikes up and down our street all the time. They go and play
with the other children around the neighborhood.. One of our very good friends lives
right next to the pathway that comes off of the proposed site into Wapoot. That worries
me, due to the amount of traffic that that will bring onto our street. It worries me for my
children's sake in not being able to ride their bikes past our driveway anymore. It
worries me just for the safety of all the children on our street. There is a lot of young
children on our street. Many of the people on our street have upwards of three, maybe
four children each. I know that you guys will make the right decision and the best thing
for the community and I hope that -- that you do take that into account. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Yes, ma'am.
McClain: I'm Jill McClain and I'm at 2135 West Martin Creek Court in Lochsa Falls.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 45 of 76
De Weerd: Thank you.
McClain: My concern is all of these things, obviously, but when we moved into those
neighborhoods -- and it does affect Kelly Creek, Lochsa Falls, Bridgetower, all of those,
not just the Wapootians. But the -- sorry.
De Weerd.: They have a new name.
McClain: But, anyway, it's the traffic and everything else. But it's also the fact that
when we were at one of the meetings, one of the things that we asked was where they
high end to fit in to the homes that are 300,000 to five, six hundred thousand in those
areas and it's kind of funny that he answered that the rent and those placed would be
600 to 1,100, that it wasn't going to be low income. Well, my nephew, he used to run a
place for 525 low income housing in '92. So, you know, it's not high end and, then, you
have the density on top of that and I just can't imagine that it's going to be the quality of
renters or people that we want in there. So, it's not just the looks, it would be the -- you
know, how it looks or what kind of landscaping or anything else -- it's the type of people
that would be coming and going and how often they turn over and who is going to take
care of them for the kind of -- well, I can't imagine that's put up with that in Eagle. So, I
throw that in. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Oh, you're brave, Chris. Okay. Any further testimony? Yes,
ma'am.
Stewart: My name is Sarah Stewart and I live at 2630 West Wapoot.
De Weerd; Thank you.
Stewart: And I sure wish my husband was here to do the talking., but we lived in a mid
range apartment complex before we moved here in January and every time we'd walk
out to take the dog, no matter what time it was, there was people in their cars smoking
dope, walking around., and recently in that apartment complex there was someone that
exposed themselves to children and women. So, I find that this is going to be the same
thing and that the prices that we paid for our homes -- it is a big concern.
De Weerd: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Any further testimony on this application?
Yes.
R.Layton: My name is Robert Layton. I live at 2545 West Wapoot Drive in Meridian
here.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Meridian City council
November 27, 2007
Page 46 of 76
R.Layton: I got a question. This is rated as an R-4; right? Up here? R-4 zoned. Why
is it, then, Selway is going -- asking for an R-40 at the zoning -- Planning Commission?
That's all I have to say.
De Weerd: Thank you, sir. Okay. Any further testimony? As the applicant you will
have the final remarks. Or the appellant in this case. Okay.
Canning: Madam Mayor, the applicant had asked for rebuttal time as well at the
beginning of the hearing.
De Weerd.: Okay. Okay. If there is no further testimony, we would ask, then, the
developer to have their remarks and we will conclude with the appellant.
Fluke: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Daren Fluke again. 250
South Beachwood in Boise, representing the applicant. I will be brief in my rebuttal
remarks. I'm going to group these remarks into about five categories and just try to
dispel some of the myths that you have heard. With regard to the impacts on
infrastructure, schools, roads, traffic, drainage, parking during construction, let me say
that, again, this was approved as a master plan development. All of the impacts were
reviewed at that time. There was a traffic study done. This was accounted for in the
planning for schools. As you all know, Wendell Bigham exacts fairly well on school sites
out of developers when they come in and they did the planning for this area. They have
sites in the area to accommodate it. Yes, we all wish the schools weren't so crowded.,
that they could build them faster, but it will catch up and as you well know, the impacts
are never able to be mitigated prior to the development going in. It's part of the tax
revenues that are generated for those -- those services that are being provided that are
used to update the facilities and accommodate the development. With regard to roads
and traffic, same comments. There are improvements planned to the intersection of
McMillan and Ten Mile, Linder and McMillan just got done. This project will generate
376,000 dollars in impact fees that will be used in this area by law in the area for capitol
improvements within this area. With regard to drainage, we have a full geo-technical
report and it will be submitted with our building permit as required by -- before we get
the building permit. That will all be reviewed, all the calculations will be reviewed, and
as you well know it will not be an issue or it will not be approved. With regard to parking
during construction, I would just point out that there is the ten acre lot to the south of us.
We will have a construction easement to utilize that to park equipment on. It's currently
vacant and will easily accommodate whatever parking happens during construction.
With regard to the issue of property values and compatibility, based on what I have
heard tonight I would think that only monsters live in apartments and they are not the
same kind of people that live in detached single family dwellings. My clients own and
operate over 1,300 apartment units in the northwest. Last month four of those were
open. They know the market. When they -- looking at this market, the vacancy rate in
apartments are about three percent and with regard to compatibility, it has less to do
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 47 of 76
with the land use than it does with the quality of the project. As you can see from what
we have proposed from the architecture, to landscaping, the site design, it's a quality
project and it's only in my client's best interest to maintain their project, because, then,
the rents stay high and people want to live there when it's a quality project, not when its
a rundown eye sore that nobody wants to look at. They are going to own and operate
the project. You do have conditions of approval that require maintenance and it's in
their best interest. So, it will be maintained in a fashion that will fit in with the
neighborhood. With regard to property values, I would submit to you that property
values have significantly decreased right now and it has nothing to do with the Selway
Apartments everything to do with the market and how many houses were built out here.
Again, it's all about a quality project and it's about regular people who live there, many
by choice that don't want a yard to take care of, that don't want a three or four, five
hundred thousand dollar house that they have maintenance, pay taxes on, take care of.
This is an efficient way to live. It's an attractive area and it attracts regular, normal
people that drive cars just like the regular normal people that drive cars out there right
now. So, if there is people going too fast right now, you need to talk to your neighbors
and get them to slow down. With regard to the deceptive .practice, I would point out to
you that this is not the same developer who developed the project, nor is the landowner
the same developer who developed Lochsa Falls. He came in, basically, to provide an
annexation path for the original developer. The original developer being a developer of
single family dwellings, never intended to develop either the commercial or the multi-
family residential. Further, we have submitted on the record that the site -- the site was
posted with the sign paid for by the property owner that had been knocked down and
put back up several times and I don't know when the last time it got knocked down and
didn't get put back up was, but we have submitted that sign and it is on the -- it was on
the property at some point in the past, so it wasn't deceptive. Let me just leave you with
this. This is a quality project. This was a master plan development. It was always
intended to develop like this. Nobody intended to pull the wool over anybody's eyes.
My clients looked at this property and it fits in with what they do, with their business
model. They wanted to buy it, because it was already entitled, not because they wanted
to have a zoning fight or pull the wool over anybody's eyes. They looked at it, they saw
the development agreement, the contract, and said this fits with what we do, we can
build a quality project here that's good for the city and fits in with the neighborhood and
is good for us. We respectfully, again, request that the Council affirm the decision of the
Planning and Zoning Commission and approve this project.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, questions?
Rountree: I have none.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
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November 27, 2007
Page 48 of 76
Zaremba: Two. Mr. Fluke. One of the recent testifiers said that there is an application
going to rezone this. Is that happening?
Fluke: There is. It was a condition of approval that we were required to submit an
application for rezone. That is -- that is because the staff wanted the zoning to match
the land use on the property and it -- because the project was approved as a part of a
PUD, it couldn't be required of the applicant up front and., frankly, we were resistant to
that for obvious reasons. Because the project was approved, we didn't want to have to
fight another battle over zoning that we don't care if it's zoned R-40 or not. This is what
the project looks like, regardless of the zoning, so -- so, yeah, it was a condition of
approval. We have submitted that application in accordance with the conditions of
approval.
Zaremba: Thank you. And the second question you may or 'may not .know an answer
to, but you mentioned that you're going to make an arrangement for the .property to the
south. Do you know whether there is -- it's approved for commercial uses. Do you
know whether whoever owns it -- maybe you represent them, too, I don't know, but are
they still planning on commercial there?
Fluke: They are. The landowner is not a developer and that's why he's selling his
property to developers. I would point out that he also sold the land that he owned north,
which is now known as Kelly Creek, approved as a part of Lochsa Falls. It was
approximately another 60 acres, I believe, that is Wapoot and points north. He sold that
to another developer. That was not developed by the original developer and so that
same will be true of the multi-family site and, then, of the commercial site to the south
and that is still the plan. The neighbors will see a final plat coming through on that
property at some point in the near future, again, in accordance with the conditions of
approval and that will be the intent to develop it with office.
Zaremba; Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Daren, before you sit down -- is our chief on over there? Ron.
Residentially, before a certain number of houses can be built -- I think it's 50 houses
with one entry and after that there has to be a secondary access -- is -- what is the rule
on multi-family?
Anderson: That's kind of a gray area, Mayor, because of the height of buildings and
things like that. But in this particular project the fire department was the one who asked
for the secondary access because of the number of units there.
De Weerd: So, the secondary access is just the emergency access onto the same
road?
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 49 of 76
Anderson: I believe there is a second one over here on the left-hand side of the project,
too.
De Weerd: That doesn't connect anything yet either.
Anderson: Right.
De Weerd: So, will that be required to connect to something before --
Anderson: When we know what's going on down to the south. Right now we don't
know what's going down to the south, so this other emergency exit is what was
required, so that we would have two to the project immediately.
De Weerd.: So, you won't limit the number of units until that connects to something?
You just need it to eventually connect to something?
Anderson: We have two connecting right now.
De Weerd: It's -- okay. So, you -- that is considered the second --
Anderson: Yes.
De Weerd: -- connecting point?
Anderson: Yes.
De Weerd: Even though that will be emergency only?
Anderson: Yes.
Fluke: Madam Mayor, I would point out two things regarding that and we -- the
architects have worked with the chief and his staff extensively on this. This does qualify
or conform to the requirements of the Uniform Fire Code and the International Fire
Code. But, more importantly, I'll just point out to you as well that this will also be a
connection to the south, as will this, upon development of the office project to the south
of us and those will connect. That's how the master plan shows them. The parcel to
the south was approved for two approaches onto McMillan and those approaches do
comply with offset standards for ACRD to this day and so there will be good access
directly to McMillan not that far in the future. And what you can't see from the audience
is that there is a little line drawn right here and what this -- what this is indicating is that's
the end of our turnaround, because what this does is function as a T type turnaround
from here to here. And so that is from -- that point right there is where the 150 feet
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dead end is measured and goes to there and that also complies with the International
Fire Code.
De Weerd: Okay. I guess I just have one other question, because you have mentioned
compatibility and you have also mentioned that this fits and I know in the letter from
your attorney it mentions compatibility is not sameness, although, again, I was here in
2002, I know the vision for this area was something more and so I think it is the same,
that -- the same quality expectations for -- for these -- for this development as that north
of it. Do you think that this is equal in quality?
Fluke: Madam Mayor, I do. I think this is a fine site plan. We are very proud of the site
plan we --
De Weerd: Well, I'm talking even building materials.
Fluke: And building materials as well. We made a case for the vinyl siding, because it
holds up best through time and if you would compare the two material boards side by
side, which are here tonight, you can see from a distance you don't even notice the
difference and from a maintenance perspective it holds up better. These are some of
the nicest buildings -- multi-family buildings that I have see designed. They compare
with anything in the area. You could -- you know, find me any other two or three story
buildings and I will show you that these have as many or more architectural features as
those buildings. The ones that come immediately to my mind are the ones on the north
side of Chinden that were developed by Brighton in the Boise Research Center. They
are on the north side of Chinden, there is offices out there, they are a colonial style
building and I think if I could put up a photo of those and we could show you
architectural features side by side, we are very proud of these buildings. This is a nice
product and, yes, it is a quality product. It's by no means shoddy and I will state that
emphatically. This is a nice project and with nice materials and nice landscaping and
the comment regarding sameness I think was -- was referring to land use. This is a
residential land use next to a residential land use, albeit at a higher density, but these
are people who need a place to live as well, people who live in your community with
productive jobs and not all of them want to live in a single family project; They like --
you know -- but they might want to live in close proximity to a project. It s a nice area
and it's desirable for -- for what my clients do.
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird..
Bird: Daren, you say -- you're comparing these toy what's over in Boise Research
Center? Are you going to be a lot of brick?
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Fluke: No, not -- those are atotally --
Bird: I mean those over there are brick. I mean those things are -- are fancier than
most houses we got in this community.
Fluke: Madam Mayor, Councilman Bird, I didn't mean to say that there are two different
-- totally different architectural styles, but I think if you were to sit them side by side and
say, okay, this has a lot of brick on it, this has stone on it, this has this type of
architectural feature, we have this much articulation on our buildings. A lot of thought
has gone into these buildings and making them look visually interesting.. A, from the
ground up on how they are built with the popouts, the fenestration of the windows and
how it all fits together, but, B, with the color scheme. Every single one of those
buildings has already been designed and we know where each type siding is going,
what color it's going to be, and they are all mixed and matched so to avoid monotony
and the site plan really lends itself to that as well.
Bird: I got a follow up, Mayor. And as I understand, these are going to be slab on
grade?
Fluke: Yes.
Bird.: Is that better than foundation?
Fluke: Well, I have to let the architect speak to whether or not it's better. I know that in
Bird: It's cheaper, we know that.
Fluke: Well, Not necessarily. It's more -- it takes a lot longer to build and it's often used
in areas with -- where you do have high groundwater, which we do not, but because --
you know, you have heard of wet crawl spaces and such and so we often use slab on
grade in those situations.. In this case it is a structural consideration based on the geo-
technical report and the building that's been designed... It's nothing more than that.
Bird: Well, I'm neither an architect or an engineer, so I'll take your word for it. Don't
agree, but I'll take your word for it.
Fluke: Madam Mayor, we could surely have Wayne explain that better than I could, if
you were so inclined..
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any further questions?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
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November 27, 2007
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De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: Is this -- Daren, is there another part of the applicant's testimony? Are you it or
is there someone that's following you?
Fluke: Not unless you had specific questions for the legal staff or the architect.
Borton: But I have got specific questions, so they are coming your way. In your
discussions with the community or with staff, is there any specific architectural amenity
that was requested of the project which you and your client were unwilling to accept?
Fluke: Madam Mayor, Councilman, the vinyl siding is the one that comes directly to
mind and I think I have explained why they want that. From a maintenance perspective
it lasts much better through time, the vinyl products are much better in this day and age
and so the decision was made to make that case to the Planning and Zoning
Commission in the hearing and see if we could convince them of that. We could not
and we will follow that decision.
Borton: Okay. But I mean as we get here now. Not at P&Z, but as we sit here today
the vinyl siding issue aside from that, is there anything else with regards to the
architectural specifics that the planning staff and the community could not see eye to
eye with -- with you and --
Fluke: Madam Mayor, Councilman, I can't think of any other significant issues. We
added the stone on the buildings in response to our first neighborhood meeting and to
try to dress up the building some more. We -- we changed the carriage homes -- the
houses to have two different styles of buildings instead of one. We moved some of the
balconies off the end -- gables into the front of the buildings to --
Borton: And I don't know disagree there has been lots of concessions. What I'm just
trying to figure out what are the specific sticking points, if any, where despite the
discussions there is still a disagreement. The staff and community want X, we just
disagree, we want Y.
Fluke: Well --
Borton: Architecturally.
Fluke: -- Madam Mayor, my clients would still prefer to use vinyl if you were so inclined.
Borton: Okay.
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November 27, 2007
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Fluke: But other than that, I don't think that there is anything in the conditions that we
can't live with.
Borton: How about with regards specifically to landscaping amenities? Anything
specifically that the two sides couldn't come to an agreement on?
Fluke: Madam Mayor -- -well, I have heard lots of things tonight, that maybe we have
too much landscaping now and, you know -- so, I don't know. The Planning and Zoning
Commission asked us to plant the plantings closer than -- than what the ultimate grow
habit of the trees are. So, in other words, what the ordinance typically specifies is that
trees would be offset by a particular distance to accommodate the growth of the trees,
so that they basically come together in that fashion and what the Planning and Zoning
Commission asked us to do was increase the density of the plantings, so that they are
going to overlap and it will be an issue with maintenance, but it's one that we can live
with. Excuse me.
Borton: Darer, was there anything -- any specific request concerning landscaping
amenities by way of example on the north and west property boundaries, which would --
were requested of property owners to alleviate some of the light pollution headlight
issues that -- that they wanted .addressed to try and solve those, but you and your client
were, for whatever reason, unwilling to agree to?
Fluke: No.
Borton: Okay.
Fluke: We have -- as Wayne explained, we have got a six foot fence and, then, at the
top of the fence you will have a mix of deciduous and evergreen tree canopies to try to
buffer the views into the projects, so I can't think of anything that was requested, other
than there was discussion of a berm, but the neighborhood was definitely of two minds
on putting a berm on that north side, because what it would, then, allow would be
people to walk up on the berm and look into their back yards over the fence and so --
Borton: Okay. And there is no berm, obviously, in the design.
Fluke: No.
Borton: The last question is with regards to specific recreational amenities. You know,
you have listed them from the pool, the hot tub, the walking paths, et cetera. Was there
any specific disagreement between you and your client and the public and staff
concerning what recreational amenities are included and shouldn't be or are excluded
and should be add?
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November 27, 2007
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Fluke: Madam Mayor, there were not. The Planning and Zoning Commission asked us
-- or the staff asked and the Planning and Zoning Commission required that we add an
amenity in this area here. They mentioned either a basketball court or a horseshoe pit
and we are fine with either. I think from the neighbor's perspective there was some
concern over a basketball area versus a horseshoe pit and so we are amenable to
either.
Borton: Okay. And you might have commented on it and I might have missed it with
regards to the walking path on the best boundary line. Are those paths through
drainage areas, drainage swales? Are we going to have concerns there?
Fluke: Madam Mayor, two things regarding that. One is the first -- we often label those
interspafiial spaces as drainage to reserve the right to do that, because we haven't
designed the drainage when we put the plan together, so we don't know what we are
going to get. Since we got the geo-technical report and what we have done on design
for drainage is use seepage beds within the drive aisles and those are sized
appropriately to accommodate the storm event and we don't need the ponds, so, no,
there won't be a conflict.
Borton: Okay. Thanks, Daren.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, anything further? Anything further?
Fluke: I'm just hearing it will be a horseshoe pit. There is not room for a half basketball
court in the area, the landscaping and other such things, so -- thank you.
Borton: Thanks, Daren.
Tiderman: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Gien Tiderman, 2432 West Los Flores Drive,
Meridian. A few things that we'd like to touch on. First of all, since it's kind of hot in
everybody's mind., in the file of commercial on our submitted disk there should be some
pictures of the apartments at Hobble Creek, if that would be possible to bring those up.
Canning: Madam Mayor, I was not given a disk for tonight.
Tiderman: You do have -- hang on. Some of the neighborhood photos earlier looked
like ours, so I thought that that was available for us. While those are coming up -- one
of the -- one of the comments that we would make about the Hobble Creek Apartments,
the brick units that you're mentioning there off of Chinden near the Y, I stopped in there
and talked to them and they are exclusively hardy panel lap sided with brick. They --
didn't ask a percentage, but I'd have to guess that the brick percentage on all four sides
of each of the buildings is somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 percent, possibly
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better. They are three story, which, of course, we would argue against, I'm sure, if they
were going to be anywhere near us.
Canning.: Mr. Tiderman, are you sure they were under commercial?
Tiderman: I'm pretty sure. Is there anything in there that would say like apartments or
Hobble Creek? I don't -- I believe they would be under commercial. I hope I didn't skip
that. I'm pretty sure we added those. No?
Canning: I'll show you what -- I'll show you what files are on there.
Tiderman; Yeah. That's on my 'list. I must have not put those on that -- on that.
Anyway -- okay. My apologies. Anyway, those apartments were built at the same time
as a subdivision, not built out after. They -- the woman that I talked to was not specific,
but she did say that their density was lower than 171, compared to a ten acre. They
had more acreage and she felt that their density was lower. I'm not sure if that's entirely
true or not. It does look like a highly dense population. But they are a very attractive
apartment complex. And, again, all hardy and brick. Councilman Bird, you asked a
question about Hunter. That was a very good eye you had. Those lines have been
redrawn. I actually talked to both Principal Clark at Hunter and Principal Brigham at
Paramount and they both confirmed that it is a Paramount draw on that. Let's see. On
the amenities there was some concern about basketball courts in the previous meetings
from the residents, whether they were voiced on the record or not I'm unsure about, but
I know that they were voiced within the -- within the group. Noise issues at hours of the
night and things like that were a concern, even for the -- for the horseshoe pit at its
given location was a bit of a concern. We would argue that there might be a better
location for that. Let's see. The drainage I think has been -- is now under the roadway,
so I think that is concerned. I never heard it mentioned again. I mentioned a right turn
only out onto Goddard.. I'd like to make sure that that is considered., if at all possible.
And in terms of water table, I live in Bridgetower, I am right across McMillan from this
and admittedly across from an irrigation ditch. I dug last spring two holes two feet deep
for posts to be put in to anchor some blackberries. When I got the first hole finished I
walked off to get the post and in the time that it took me to walk off and get the post I
had about an inch of water sitting in the bottom of that hole and the same was true for
the second hole six feet apart. I can tell you that in --from my neck of the woods, which
is less than 300 feet away, I would guess, based on my notification radius, we are
clearly less than eight feet on the water table. And I think that there is a number of
others that could probably confirm that. We would like to see development in this area.
We don't want to see it be left as -- as a -- as a weedy bit of land. We would ask that
development would meet more along the lines -- there we go. Thank you. Somewhere
in there I knew I had them. Anyway, we would ask that the development would be
something more along the lines of, you know, maybe R-4 to R-8 and no more than an
R-8. Also, we would ask that owner occupied be considered. I personally asked that of
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November 27, 2007
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the gentlemen of Rudeen in one of the previous meetings. They have, in fact, produced
condos in the past. They flatly denied any request for that. So, that has actually been
brought up personally with them. Again, we are not opposed to development. We like
to see development. We'd just like to see it at a much lower residence rate. And lastly,
you know, a lot of comments are made about, you know, not wanting renters next to you
and the reality is all -- most, if .not all of us have been a renter at one time and my next
door neighbor, who is not here tonight, put this in perfect perspective for me one day
and he said., you know, it's -- I'm not choosing to not live next -- or to -- let me back up a
second. He said that, yeah, he's been a renter as well and the difference is is that when
he was a renter he wouldn't want to live next to himself, because he was at a different
time in his life. And that's not true for all renters. We recognize that. But it is true for
some and, you know, the -- the lifestyle of families is going to be different than the
lifestyle of singles or possibly married -- you know, married without children families in
the area. Again, not opposed to it, it just -- there needs to be some recognizing that
there is -- there is a connection and yet there is a difference. So, I definitely appreciate
your time in this matter and hope that you see fit to make some changes here. We'd
very much appreciate it.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Tiderman: Thank you.
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: In the original plans, one of the ideas was that a higher density residential
use would be used as a transition or a buffer between what would be the commercial
use on the next piece of property, which is not at issue at the moment, but it sounds like
it may be. And I guess my question is what do you envision for what's currently
designated a commercial in the future and if you still think commercial would be
appropriate there., what should the transition be on this property?
Tiderman: I think R-4 to R-8. I think, you know, if we -- if you up zone the R-4 to R-8
and, hopefully, made that some sort of a compatible -- I would personally like to see
owner occupied. I think that a greater amount of personal pride goes into an owner
occupied development. I think you can see that recognized within the people here,
there is a lot of pride here and we want to see that continued throughout the
neighborhood. So -- so, I understand -- and I'm not faulting the ideas at the time, I just
think that at the time the vision is different than what we feel the vision should be now.
Some buffering., great. But the problem is is you're taking three hundred to four hundred
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November 27, 2007
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thousand dollar homes, which I'm sure at the time nobody comprehended that kind of a
development in there, and you're buffering them with apartments that are going to rent
from 600 to 1,100 dollars a month, one bedroom to three bedroom and, you know,
many of us have, you know, at least three bedrooms to five bedrooms and, again, family
residence. Some of these folks have got kids that play in the backyard and when they
bought they had envisioned that they might have three or four neighbors across the
back of their fence. Well., three or four neighbors -- and I think four would be a very high
number if you had some sort of regular home -- or home residential building there. You
can monitor that, but you can't monitor 171 changing residents just on the back side of a
five foot fence. It can't be done and the perceived threat is going to be maybe greater
than the true threat, but it's still going to be there and it's going to be unnerving to those
people that live across that -- that area. It's unnerving to my wife and I and we live
across McMillan, okay, so -- and we are thankful for that buffer, to be perfectly honest
with you, and the reason I have fought as hard as I have is because of those folks that I
think are getting an unfair shake at it.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any further questions?
Zaremba: Thank you.
Tiderman: Thank you.
De Weerd,: Thank you.
Tiderman: Thank you very much.
De Weerd: Okay. Any further questions for staff, information needed by Council?
Staff, any further comment?
Canning: No, ma'am, other than I finally found Mr. Tiderman's views of the apartment
complex he wanted. I did show them. I'll show them again. That is a picture of Hobble
Creek, as is this.
De Weerd: And the developers did not have a percentage of rock face? Okay. Okay.
Thank you, Anna. Okay.. Council, if there is no further information needed and no
further comment by the appellant or developer, I would entertain a motion to close the
Public Hearing if you so desire.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
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November 27, 2007
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Borton: Is the developer able to provide us a not less than percentage for that, with
regards to the rock face? I know we don't have an answer, but if there is an ability to
convey some basement percentage -- I know it sort of puts you on the spot.
Rountree: We can provide one.
Borton: We can provide one, but I would offer the opportunity to suggest one.
Thowless: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council --
De Weerd: If you will, please, state your name.
Thowless: Wayne Thowless.
De Weerd: You don't need to restate your address.
Thowless: Wayne Thowless. LKV Architects. Again, I do not have the specific
percentages for each building of the amount of stone on them. It does vary. If you were
in need of that information, we could provide it, but, of course, we cannot do so tonight.
We can't make those calculations at this time. We -- the applicant, Rudeen
Development, is perfectly comfortable with providing the amount of stone that is
indicated on the elevations that are presently part of the public record, as well as the
variations in siding treatment and colors as we have proposed, but would respectfully
request that given that they have already made significant concessions on other
materials on the buildings, specifically the vinyl to the hardy plank siding, that -- that no
additional masonry materials be required on the buildings.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd.: Yes.
Borton: Beyond that which is reflected in the elevations?
Thowless: Pardon me?
Borton: Beyond what --
Thowless: Beyond what is currently reflected in the elevations, which we feel is
esthetically appropriate. Correct.
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
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November 27, 2007
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Bird: Wayne, in other words, just the front of the buildings is the only thing you are
willing to put stone or stucco on?
Thowless: Councilman Bird, as I mentioned earlier, the fronts and the backs of the
buildings are very identical in most cases, which means there is stone on both the fronts
and the backs. So, both the sides of the building that face the internal driveway
circulation system that most people would consider the front, have the same degree of
architectural embellishment as do the sides that face the single family residences, which
might add., if I could mention, is not true of most of the single family homes. The nice
architectural treatments in the homes in Kelly Creek, Lochsa Falls, et cetera, are
typically primarily on the street elevation, not the back and we are providing it on both
sides, so --
Bird: Thank you. I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
De Weerd: Anything further?
Canning: Madam Mayor:
De Weerd: Yes.
Canning: Before you close the record, I did want to clarify that the conditions that are
before you tonight were the ones that the Planning Commission -- their findings. So,
that's what is before you tonight. So, it includes all those changes that I discussed
previously. I meant to note that in my earlier presentation, but forgot to, but I just
wanted you to know that.
De Weerd: Okay.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weef-d,: Yes.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I guess two points. Because of the
length of the Public Hearing and the information that was gathered, you may want to --
you may want to make sure you don't have any other issues as you discuss this project
before you close the Public Hearing, because, then, you may have to back up and
reopen and get more information. So, you may want to be sure at least that you don't
have any other issues or concerns before you close it. Secondarily, from a process
standpoint, this is a -- this is a complete Council review. The findings and decision
made by this Council are the final decision of the city and that order can, then, be
appealed. You are free to adopt the findings as Planning and Zoning has crafted. You
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are free to amend those findings in a fashion that you wish, or you're free to adopt
completely new findings. But the ultimate document that you will get, whatever your
outcome is, will be a decision of this Council. And the only reason I state that is
because sometimes it's confusing to folks that -- on this process where they have been
heard once by Planning and Zoning and now heard by this Council. That they consider
that somehow this is an appeal and, therefore ,there is a different standard and it's not
that. The ultimate decision is yours. The final decision that is made is yours. The
findings that are adopted ultimately by this Council are reflective that it is the decision of
this group, not Planning and Zoning -- not the Commissioners themselves., but you.
So, I just wanted to make that clear for both your -- for the Council and the Mayor, as
well as the public here that that's the ultimate way that the process is completed. So,
just wanted to make that clear, too.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Council, do you want to have discussion or not?
Rountree: Sure. Why not.
De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Madam Mayor,. I have some concerns with some of the things I have seen
and a lot of the stuff I have heard.. This is a new application to me and we are
somewhat caught between the past and the future. But specifically to the project -- and
I made the comment earlier -- words from the architect indicating that there was a lot of
undulation in these dwellings and show me a flat carriage house with four or five
garages looking at me from the street. That particular piece of architecture, in my
opinion, is not consistent with the area, it's not consistent with an effort on the part of the
applicant to meet what -- as near as I can tell the intent of the city was back in 2002, to
provide a quality, high density, compatible residential unit that was consistent with
getting more density in north Meridian, ultimately to benefit the transportation network,
to provide an opportunity to make transit work. But to be compatible with its
surroundings and I'm not sure that what I see is necessarily compatible. I'm certainly
hearing that it's not. I have to be one of the judges that I guess makes that decision and
I'm not convinced at this point in time. I get real concerned when the applicant tells me,
well, we are doing more than what's required. Well, to me what's required is make this
work for Meridian, to make it right for the community, and that might be doing more than
just extra. It might be doing way more than extra. I'll stop before I wound both my feet,
but that's kind of where I am right now in terms of what I'm thinking about, what I'm
seeing, and what I'm hearing..
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Rountree. Any other comments?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
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November 27, 2007
Page 61 of 76
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I think I would join in what Councilman Rountree is saying. To me the issue
isn't so much that there is 171 units and I think we have been advised legally that
number is not even on the table. In the original approval of the entire section, averaged
out over some larger homes in other areas in the same project, even though they are
under different owners now, this was just a piece of that average. But one of the other
reasons that at the time a CUP was required for this was that there was no design
review and the intent was to enable us to do some kind a design review, not just say,
okay, you can build any 171 units you wants here and at the time I don't think any of us
thought that houses, even in what we knew was going to be a very nice subdivision,
don't think any of us thought that houses were going to go for much than 200 or 300
thousand dollars, because that was the nature of the prices at the time. These are fine
homes. I think the development that goes next to it needs to be -- the word compatible,
but it needs to be in that tone or range. I cannot sit here and say that I would deny the
171. I think that's a given. But I do think it needs to be an enhancement to the
neighborhood and I think there is more that could be done to make it an enhancement
to the neighborhood. If that's what Councilman Rountree said, I'm seconding what he
said..
De Weerd: Thank you. Any other comments?
Boston: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Having -- having not been -- being the one guy that wasn't part of this -- two?
De Weerd: Two.
Borton: Good man. Two guys not on any part of it, but just spent a lot of time
researching the history of this particular project and this dilemma, for me for what it's
worth, the 171 is the whole issue and I know it's not the deciding point today. That's a
huge one. Would I have wanted to sit here and say yes to that, then? I would be
shocked if I'd ever see how that would -- that would make sense, but I wasn't there. But
that's not the issue today and it's not the issue of my consideration, because we are not
here to decide whether or not it's appropriate for 171 housing units to be on the property
A wonderful discussion for an earlier time, which -- which, fortunately or unfortunately,
isn't before us today. So, the issue is whether or not the entitlement to this piece
permits -- which permits 171 units is done in a way that addresses, like Councilman
Rountree and Zaremba's concerns, have noted and we have gone through the P&Z
minutes and a lot of the good public testimony today. I'm extremely sensitive to the
concerns. I have got the notes added from today from the testimony and earlier
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hearings and I'm also sensitive to the developer's concessions and entitlement rights on
the property to complete this project. I lean the other way. I believe that -- that you're
not going to get adevelopment -- a developer is not going to not come here and
propose a project with a hundred units. There is an entitlement right to 171, you're
going to be extremely challenged to ever find a project that fits this parcel with 171 units
that provides fewer amenities -- and I understand a lot of the concern goes back to the
density issues, which I don't disagree, but we can't sit here and deny it, because it's too
many units. We can't. So, I'm probably the -- maybe one of the unpopular ones who is
in favor of the project and., you know, we run for -- for public office to make tough
decisions and that's one of the tough ones and that's how I'm leaning and I understand
both sides of the issue and if it's unpopular, it's unpopular. But that's my perspective. I
don't make light of any of the comments -- the specific questions that I asked about
architectural amenities and landscaping and recreational -- I'm trying to get specifics,
just trying to find out if the specific requests of the public beyond don't build it, are
addressed and whether or not the developer has a chance and has specifically
addressed those concerns. I think that's important to see where the sides agree and
disagree. I didn't hear a laundry list of specific amenities presented on those three
issues. Maybe that speaks well of the public and the present applicant or the present
owner trying to resolve those. So, in light of that, that's what makes me feel comfortable
going forward to approve it, understanding that it's not a popular decision in this room
and sometimes tough decisions are not popular decisions, but that's the way I'm leaning
right now for better or worse.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Well, I'm one that was sitting here. Not ashamed of it, either, because like
Councilman Borton said., we always have some tough decisions. We don't make
everybody happy and we try to do what's best for the community. I will say one thing, if
we go to R-8 or R-4 there, which if -- I would never vote for R-8. If it changes from
anything it will go to an R-4 or nothing. We can determine that we will have this same
group and much more when we decide to do the commercial in here complaining. Don't
shake your heads, because we have had this at Crossroads. Two of us sat though
Crossroads where they had signs up for ten years and still people didn't believe that --
because their real estate guys told them that they were never going to have commercial
out there. Anyway, I don't like the density either hurting your property value. I don't
think right now -- I think it's market more than anything. I don't think the apartments are
selling -- are making the homes go up for sale. I think there is a lot of people that -- we
are in a downfall, people, I'm telling you that. The City of Meridian is. So, I don't like the
density either. I don't -- I don't like it. I like it before it, it's going to have some stuff and
there is going to be a lot of stone and stucco, it's not going to be no 25 percent. They
are going to look good. Don't -- you can't -- when you get up here and start comparing
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to Hobble Creek, they must build them like Hobble Creek and those are a long ways --
from what I see on their elevations are a long way from being Hobble Creek. That --
think Councilman Borton had a lot of good points. Councilman Rountree and Zaremba
also. I feel -- I feel for people. I mean I have been in this same situation. I, for 30 some
years, looked at a beautiful field of 11 acres and within six months I had 49 homes, you
know. We -- to be truthful, I wish Meridian was the size it was in 1965 when I moved
from Nampa to here. But you know what, I wouldn't be living here, because I would
have had to go out of town to make -- to make my living for my family. So, growth does
-- is needed. But we need to make sure that what we put up -- I don't want something
that's thrown up that in a year and a half, two years from now, looks like a Jungle Gym
and our police officers -- might as well put an office out there. But let me tell you,
people, there, we have had some apartments and I think our police department will tell
you they can be cleaned up. But you have got to make sure they start as first class and
that's -- I think these owners will probably do it. I think they are willing to upgrade their
siding. I'm with you, I'm glad vinyl siding got thrown out. It's -- it's horrible when it
comes to fire. Anyway -- on that. I just -- it's something that -- it's tough. I mean I feel
sorry -- I feel sorry for everyone of you guys and I feel sorry for the owners. I -- but I'm
telling you if we make that an R-4 and they build their half million dollar homes, which I
didn't think Meridian had too many of those half million dollar homes, they -- when the
commercial goes in, which I think we worry about traffic and the way you cut down on
traffic is to get the amenities close to the residential., so we don't have -- so you don't
have to come through my neighborhood to get to Albertson's. Okay? That's why when
we did our North Meridian Plan, we put the little residential and commercial areas out
there. When that goes in, because I'm going to tell you, some guy that goes out there
and spends 400,000 for a house isn't going to want to see a freight truck at 6:00 -- 5:00
or 6:00 in the morning pulling in back down the thing to unload. Do you believe that?
We just went through one just south of town. So, don't tell me that there wouldn't be
any problems. We'd have this room stacked again, the same thing. We have been
through it. But, anyway, if we build 171 units out there, they have got to be first class
and they have got to be taken care of first class. And I will leave it at that.
De Weerd: Council, anything further?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, my sense is that many of us are saying the same thing, just
in different words. I don't think we are arguing opposite of each of other, I think we are
all trying to go the same direction, which is to make a 171 unit project a first class
project. So, I guess the question for discussion, then, is do we want to add anything to
the conditions that the P&Z Commission placed on it, you know, to insure that it's a first
class project. Do we want to start over and make our own conditions? I think perhaps
we can make a few modifications. One that I would suggest is that we -- since we did
not get a conclusion from the developer, I would suggest that we specify a minimum
stone or stucco or a variety of treatment and I would put it in the 30 to 40 percent range.
Some buildings could -- and I would even suggest some buildings could be less and
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some buildings could be more, but this is an average over the whole -- I see
Councilman Bird not agreeing with me. I thought this was his subject and that I was
going in his direction.
Bird: You finish up and, then, I'll talk. You finish up.
Zaremba: The other thing that I would suggest that we resolve is the developer working
with ACRD to put no parking signs -- legally there is no parking on Goddard Creek, but
I'm not sure that's apparent to people. I think that safeguard does need to be there, that
there be signs there and I do -- I think the point was made, that this does need to be a
transition to the commercial, that it would not be appropriate to go back and revisit the
idea of having half million dollar homes on this property, because, then, the commercial
is at risk, so -- they understand it as a position, but I guess my question is do we want to
specify a minimum stone and do we want to require that they put signs -- no parking
signs and what else?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: My idea of stone is like about 50 percent on both front and back. Stone or stucco.
I think you build them a little classier and people take care of them a little classier. If
you -- if you throw up something that's the way they are going to live. I think we can
make stipulations on the -- on the product. The traffic, we have already been told that --
that they have speeding problems already without these apartments going in and you
know if the apartments go in you're going to add to it. So, that's where we have our
officers. I live on one of the oldest streets in Meridian., put in in 1965, and my -- and
officers have to come over there -- they have all for 42 years for a week or two and sit
the car there so everybody can see it and, you know what, we get slowed down and,
then, a couple three months later we get our speeders back up. So, that's something
that -- that comes natural whether you have the apartments or not, I believe.
Apartments don't add to it, don't get me wrong, but if I'm going to approve it, it's going to
have stipulations on it and I guess the owners can decide whether they want to build it.
De Weerd: Council, I guess I thought I knew what direction this was going when -- and
now I'm not sure, so now you get my two cents worth. I guess the vision was for a first
class development when this was approved and it was thought that this would be built
maybe not at the end, but certainly it would be part of -- it made sense at the time,
because it was along Highway 20-26 and that is a transportation corridor. This whole
square mile. It was really envisioned for that. One of the things we do find with our
Comprehensive Plan is it is allowed flexibility, because things do change as they -- as
they develop and as you get a better feel for the area. Like I said, this was a surprise,
that it was approved for 171 apartments. First time and right now it's -- it's a right, it's an
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entitlement. The only one that's going to change that is the developer or the people that
purchased the ground.. If they see that they can't make this work, they can try
something else. But this was intended to be a first class development, as what has
been built around there. The concern when it was approved in 2002 was schools and
traffic and at that time we were developing the north Meridian plan and ACHD and the
development community were working together to come up with what they were going
to do with these roads.. And if you go back and you look at the testimony, I know that
two us were very concerned about that. It still was not answered and., unfortunately, an
open-ended stipulation in the application has been withdrawn, because nothing came of
that. Traffic continues to be a concern. It concerns me that there is only one -- and
maybe there is an emergency access, but putting all those cars out onto one road
without seeing how it connects -- and these are the things that we thought would come
out of a CUP, is how it would connect and that those connection points would exist
before it was built. So, design, connectivity, timing., and road improvements were all a
,part of that. They all exist today and they all continue to be my concern. Same as it
was then. So,.for me it -- this is -- this is not Hobble Creek that we saw. It doesn't have
accent on the front, back, and sides at the same density or percentages that those do
and that the timing of it and the improvements -- I think, Anna, did you talk about the
intersection improvements, both at McMillan and Ten Mile and McMillan and Linder?
Canning: No, ma'am, we did not discuss them, but Christy has the numbers -- the dates
memorized.
Richardson: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Christy Richardson with ACHD.
The Linder-McMillan intersection is about ready to issue notice to proceed, so
construction will start or construction -- set up will start in early December and that
project has to be complete by th.e end of May. The Ten Mile-McMillan intersection
project will get started as soon as Linder is complete and that project is required to be
completed by the end of October. The highway district has budget monies to complete
both of those projects and we do have development agreements in place with some
members of the development community to complete those projects.
De Weerd: Thank you. So, I guess, Council, if you want more the historical overview
on this, is traffic was a concern there, the connectivity, and the egress -- ingress and
egress of this development out onto one street would continue to be a concern. The
type of materials and the quality of the development is as well. And I think I quote
someone that ladmire -- I`m not in a hurry. And I guess I only have a vote if you tie, but
we will see how it plays out. Any further comments?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I guess where I was going is can we as a group figure out
what elements we need to require to bring it up to first class and to get the connectivity
and to get the design..
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De Weerd.: I don't know if that's our job, but --
Canning: Madam .Mayor. Please remember you haven't done a conditional use for
awhile, but in a Conditional Use Permit if you do move to deny it, you do need to inform
the applicant on how they could successfully gain approval.
De Weerd: I think you have heard that in the discussion, but point taken.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Before I could take any action either way at this point, there has been a lot of
things said, a lot of emotion, a lot of very germane issues brought up. I have got four or
five pages of notes. It's almost 10:.30. I could keep you here until 1:00 o'clock trying to
go through my notes and see what my issues are and what might make it right for me.
I'm going to suggest that we keep the hearing open, that we see an opportunity to see a
summary of the testimony and the information presented this evening. Consolidate that
and either do what Councilman Zaremba is talking about, put together a laundry list of
what makes it right or put together the other laundry list of what makes it objectionable
and why we aren't going to approve it. But recently having seen projects that are not
controversial become controversial because of our lack of due diligence on the part of
getting information down someplace and having properties flip and all of a sudden us
seeing something that we never even imagined we were going to see, in some kind of a
change of thought and all happening at a level that never even gets to Council. So,
would like to take the opportunity to digest what we have hard -- you know, these
people have put a lot of time in this, they have spent the evening with us, and they are
asking us to make a decision in 20 minutes. I'm not ready to make a decision in 20
minutes, not without an opportunity to digest what I have heard. I can make. a decision
tonight, but it's probably more emotional than objective right now. So, that's where
would be if -- if we were to have a motion, that's what I would support.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Rountree. Mr. Nary, did you have something to say over
there?
Rountree.: Tell me I can't do that.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you can certainly do that if you wish. If
you want to continue the hearing., we certainly want to continue -- if you're going to
continue the hearing for additional information, then, we need to specify what that is. If
your intent is to close the hearing, because you don't want additional information, but
you want an opportunity to review the record, review all of the testimony -- that's why we
have a stenographer, that -- that's certainly within your power to do that, if that's what
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you wish. The only issue is if you're going to get more information, then, we just need to
identify what that is. One of the pieces that has been left out and you have obviously
discussed it amongst yourself is what percentage of treatment to these buildings may
be acceptable to some of you. The developer indicated that they didn't have, really, a
target amount specified tonight that they could. You could certainly ask for that
information from them. That may or may not meet your desired amount, but that's
certainly something you could ask for. There was a question that's been discussed a
number of times about some roadway access and I don't know if Ms. Richardson needs
any additional time to talk about either the no parking issue, the right-in, right-out issue
on Goddard Creek that was brought up, but that's something that was brought up a
couple of times to discuss if you want information about that. We could certainly narrow
down that we are not going to rehear all this testimony, but if there is specific points you
want -- if you don't want any of those things, but you merely just want to review your
.record, you certainly can do that.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Process question, Bill. If we close the hearing., review the record, do we,
then, have to open the hearing again, discuss it, and, then, make a motion one way or
the other or can we discuss it and make a motion one way or another without reopening
the hearing?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Councilmember Rountree, you do not
need to reopen the hearing to have a discussion.
Rountree: Unless we seek additional information.
Nary: Unless you seek additional information. And that was the only reason I had
made that .recommendation up front of tonight's -- or before tonight's discussion was
was on occasion.., as you have all discussed an issue, sometimes issues come up that
you want more information on. So, at that time you certainly have the ability to do that
as well.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, there has been a lot of discussion
about the elevations and the percentage. This is just a request on my part. If you do
decide to continue it, I would appreciate giving the applicant an opportunity to submit
revised elevations to you, rather than have me make a call just based on one
percentage number. I would rather that they have an opportunity to provide you new
elevations that you feel comfortable with. Does that make sense?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I thought it did. Councilman Rountree, were you shaking your head no?
Rountree: Didn't make sense to me, but -- explain it to me, Joe.
Borton: Okay. It makes sense and you're suggesting, Councilman Rountree, that it
makes sense to continue it. To the extent that we can articulate to the applicant and to
the public that -- if the public hearing's left open and we are going to make some
suggestions that they bring back, improved., for lack of a better term, elevations which
address some of the specific architectural concerns which Council and Mayor may have
-- it sounds like there are some that need to be enumerated, just so it's productive, so
when we come back we are not just saying the same stuff again and everyone's got
some more specific direction on if there is a desire to make this particular project better
and architectural landscaping amenity fashion that -- that that's delineated very clearly,
so we know what we are doing when we come back.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you know, I always like to get real
lawyerly when we have been talking about this for a long time., but if you want to
continue this matter -- I would agree with Councilman Borton, other than my notes
indicate we heard 35, 40, 50 and it was fine the way it is. So, I'm not sure exactly if
there is much direction for the applicant to bring us something. But, obviously, this
Council is not completely comfortable consensus-wise as to what's presented. I guess
the only thing I would at least make clear -- if you continue it and want more information,
and they wish to make changes, there is no guarantee you're going to approve anything
they bring back, whether it's what's in front of you tonight or anything they propose. So,
you're not simply asking them -- I guess I say this mostly for the applicant's benefit, that
I don't want to leave the impression that if that is the Council's direction, that they bring
back a different facade or a different look to this project in some fashion, that you're
simply going to approve it at that. Certainly if it's significantly different, your decision
may be that you may need to rehear it, because it may be enough of a difference that
you may feel more information is necessary. But I just want to put that out there.
know, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you understand that. I just want to make
sure from the record standpoint that if you decide to do it and we come back, the
applicant isn't assuming that you're approving it based on some new drawing they may
bring to you.
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De Weerd: Okay. Council, what direction do you want to go with this? That's why we
put me in the middle.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Let me just throw out an additional element. It may or may not make sense at
all. Is Russ still here? Did he just step out? We take notes from what everyone says
and one of Russ's comments jumped out when he talked about making a difficult
situation a good situation. I don't need to talk to him, I just wanted to quote him,
because he had a good perspective and I don't know if -- if there was an opportunity, if
this is the route that the Council feels comfortable with resetting this and we are going to
try and say to the applicant bring forth, you know, revised elevations that perhaps, you
know, show 50 percent stone stucco on front, back, and side and other architectural
improvements to make it look better. I mean that sounds very vague, it's very difficult to
fit that, whatever comes back may or may not work, but I wonder if there is an
opportunity for either a representative or a couple people from the adjacent community
to participate in a quick meeting with the applicant at some point, you know, not trying to
lengthen the process and just to make sure they have got some input before the Public
Hearing and what some of those architectural improvements could be. It's just another
opportunity to try to make a tough situation right.
Bird.: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I agree with Joe a hundred percent, but I don't think you're going to find three
people out there that I don't think it's -- I don't think it's the architecture of the buildings
that's their problem. I think it's more than that. I don't know. We can -- we can certainly
set it aside for a week or so and mull it over and, then, we can come back and do the
same thing again. I mean we have heard plenty of testimony. I don't think we are going
to hear a whole lot more. We can -- we can put -- and, you know, somebody said 50
percent, but that's my throwing out. You guys might not agree with that and, you know,
if you don't, let me know, but -- I mean we can keep discussing this for the next year,
because every time we are going. to find something -- we are going to see something
different. I'll do whatever the other three do. I'm ready to -- to take a -- I'm ready to vote
on it.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
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November 27, 2007
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Borton: While I could., I'm not -- I'm not ready to tonight, specifically in light of
Councilman Rountree's concerns. This is a big deal to everyone up here, as well as in
the room., and as any one of us has a desire to -- to take a moment and reflect on what
we have heard and from the applicant and the public comments, I'm more than willing to
agree and accommodate that request. So, while Icould -- could act, we have got an
opportunity to take some time and reset it, I'd be fine doing that.
De Weerd: Mr. Berg, when my -- we get a set of minutes that can be reviewed by
Council and so if Council wishes to reset -- I just will note I will be gone December 11th,
so --
Borton: It won't be December 11th.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Berg: Madam Mayor, we will have draft minutes probably sometime on Friday.
De Weerd: So --
Zaremba: I will miss December 11th as well, if that makes a difference.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Mr. Berg is right, we normally get our
draft minutes by Friday. My only concern is not only for you folks to have the
opportunity to review it, but certainly for the applicant and the members of the public to
have time to review it and Friday to Tuesday may be a little tight to do that, so that's the
only thing I would be concerned if you wanted -- the 18th is quite a ways away, but,
obviously, this is a big concern to folks and there is a lot of information that was
produced in both the prior hearing, as well as tonight, so --
De Weerd: Okay. So, Council, I need direction. What would you like to do? Continue
to the 18th or make a decision? I can't make a motion.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Zaremba: I would be willing to make a motion to continue with some suggestions at
what we would like to see in the way of more information or different information. Is that
an appropriate motion?
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De Weerd: You certainly can give it a try and if someone seconds it, it's a motion.
Zaremba: That's a good point.
De Weerd: Okay.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I move that we continue AP 07-009 to our regularly
scheduled meeting of December 18th, 2007, with the expectation that we will see new
elevations, which show a minimum stonework of 50 percent; that also show greater
modulation, particularly on the carriage units in the garage area. That an answer be
given to who will supply the no parking signs along Goddard Creek. I think most of the
other things have been answered. Anybody want to add anything. to the list? And., of
course, that we have the opportunity to review the minutes, which the applicant doesn't
control. If not, that's the end of my motion.
De Weerd..: Okay. Do I have a second?
Bird: I'll make -- I'll second it, just so I can have some discussion. You did plan on
leaving the Public Hearing open; right?
Zaremba: Continuing.
Bird.: Okay. Now, the appellant -- you're going to give them some time, too. You're
giving the applicant time. Are we going to set a time limit or are we going to go back
through this whole thing again? That's exactly what you're setting up.
Zaremba: I'm sorry. I believe we have heard the public testimony. I would propose that
we give the original applicant 15 minutes and the appellant 15 minutes to respond. The
appellant should have the final -- the one who made the application to have us review it
should be the final word. Equal time.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd.: Mr. Bird.
Bird.: David., I agree with you a hundred percent, but it's not going to happen. I have
seen too many of these. Somebody else is going to want to get up, you have got a
Public Hearing or the appellant will say, well., I'm going to take five and Joe's going to
take five and somebody else is going. to take five -- no, I need two extra or I need three
extra -- it -- I mean it just -- just, in my opinion, we are just having another November
27th.
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November 27, 2007
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Nary: Madam Mayor? Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, probably the most appropriate,
Councilmember Zaremba, is that -- that if you want additional information on these
specific points, then, the Council would only take testimony regarding those specific
points. I agree with you that the applicant would need the opportunity to present that.
The applicant should have the opportunity to rebut that. The public can comment on
only those items, so it is not to discuss all the other issues that were raised tonight,
those are already part of the record, but just the issues that are brought forward. If --
but, for example, if the applicant doesn't wish to provide 50 percent, then, they can tell
you that and that's something they can provide at that hearing and., again, comment can
be taken, again, only on those issues. But I agree with Councilmember Bird that I don't
think we can limit just the applicant and the appellant, we do have to allow the public
comment, but only on the subjects that are new to the hearing, not additional comments
on what was brought up tonight. And.., then, I think your record will be clean.
.Zaremba: That does work for me. That's fine, as the maker of the motion. Since we
are in discussion, I need to ask one more question and probably of staff. That is a
clarification of what the current proposed access points are. And I guess I need the site
plan.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, it's my understanding the current
proposed access -- access -- I'll find the mouse here. There are three of them. This is
the main entrance coming into the project. There is an emergency exit onto Goddard
also for the north end of the site and there was a requirement placed on the project
during the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing to extend this as a drive aisle, I
believe, that would eventually connect through the commercial development to the
south. That there is at this time no development there.
Zaremba: Thank you. The clarification that I wanted was that even if it's future, that
that will be an access.
Canning: That's my understanding. Yes, sir.
Zaremba: Even if it's only onto another property.
Canning: And I'm getting a nod from the applicant. Yes.
Zaremba.: So, we need across-access agreement, probably, at that point.
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November 27, 2007
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Canning: Yes. We will certainly be looking for that when the property to the south
comes in.
Zaremba: Yeah. I would add that condition to my list. The second is nodding his head.
Bird.: The second agrees.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Again, I go back to my first statement. I'm trying to find all of the things that
I'd like to have included in that motion. At this point I have only uncovered one more.
But I'm not sure this -- this will end it. But would the maker of the motion include an
explanation and across-section showing the screening for headlights on the north
boundary.
Zaremba: The maker of the motion thinks that's an excellent idea. Yes.
Bird: Second agrees.
De Weerd: Okay. Anything further? We do have a motion to continue this to
December 18th, with -- with a specific request and testimony restricted to those items
and that is of design, with the accent and articulation. The access points and the
screenings on the north side.
Rountree: And 50 percent.
De Weerd: And with 50 percent accent.
Zaremba: And no parking on -- who's going to do that no parking signs on Goddard.
De Weerd: Okay. And I guess just for -- I don't know if this needs to be included in the
motion, but I know both the appellant and the developer have both said that pathway
that goes to the north is -- is not necessary. I'd like staff comment on that.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, where there is a stub provided for a
neighborhood., we always advocate for continuation of that pathway stub. It was similar
to a .stub street, it was a commitment made by the developer, an amenity they offered to
those residents.. If Council chooses to have that closed off, that's certainly something
they can do. It becomes a question as to what happens to that area. Over time it could
perhaps be folded back into the lots, but we always as staff advocate for the
continuation of stub streets and stub pathways.
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November 27, 2007
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Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Parks Director Siddoway would probably
be a good person to provide additional information. If we are going to continue it, if you
certainly could ask for him to be present on December 18th to explain the pathway plan
and the reason those are requested and, again, you can certainly choose to do
whatever you wish with that, but you may -- it may be helpful to have his input about
that.
De Weerd: I guess would the maker of the motion include this and I would ask the
appellant, then, to -- if -- for the neighborhood to -- to give a plan as to what they would
do if that path connection were vacated. Would the maker of the motion agree?
Zaremba: I would be happy to have that be an additional subject, yes.
De Weerd.: Mr. Bird?
Bird: I agree.
De Weerd: Anything further? Our list just got long. Okay. All those in favor of the
motion, please, say aye. Any opposed? All ayes. Motion carried..
MOT10N CARRLED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: We will reset this for December 18th to be specific to just those topics. If
you need minutes to know what the topics are, you can request those from the clerk's
office or get them online on our website. And no decision has been made. This is just
continued for more information.
Nary: Madam Mayor? Madam Mayor, just for the public and the applicant, I'll work with
the clerk's office and your staff to make sure we have it available on our website maybe
on the front page, so people could access it easier for those minutes.
De Weerd: Okay.
Nary: So, we will get those on there.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay.
Zaremba: I would add thank you to everybody who has come and given us your good
thinking and we appreciate it.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 75 of 76
De Weerd: Council, I'm going to call a five minute recess.
(Recess.)
Item 11: Ordinance No. 07-1342 An Ordinance to Amend the
Municipal Code of the City of Meridian, County of Ada, State of Idaho,
Amending Title 10, Chapter 7, Exhibit A, Meridian City Code, Known
as the Meridian Impact Fee Ordinance Fee Schedule; to Provide for
an Amendment to the Parks & Recreation Impact Fee Schedule; and
Providing an Effective Date (2"d of 3 Readings):
De Weerd: I'll go ahead and reopen this City Council meeting. We have Ordinance --
Item No. 11, Ordinance No. 07-1342. Mr. Berg, will you,. please, read this by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance 07-1342, an
ordinance to amend the municipal code of the Meridian City -- excuse me -- City of
Meridian, Ada -- County of Ada, State of Idaho, amending Title 10, Chapter 7, Exhibit A,
Meridian City Code, known as the Meridian Impact Fee Ordinance fee schedule, to
provide for an amendment to the parks impact fee schedule and providing an effective
date.
De Weerd: Thank you. You have heard this ordinance read by title only. Ralph, do you
want to hear it read in its entirety?
Bird: No. No. That --
Berg: Madam Mayor --
Bird.: We can't do that until the third reading.
Berg: This is the --
Bird: This is the second, Mayor.
De Weerd: He still can request it. Okay.
Zaremba: Can he read it again and we will be done with it?
Bird: Give it to him and he can read it --
Nary: No, you can't.
Meridian City Council
November 27, 2007
Page 76 of 76
De Weerd: Okay. We will have it on the agenda for the third and final reading.
Council, we are at the end of our agenda.. Do I have a motion?
Rountree: Move to adjourn.
Bird: Second..
De Weerd: All those in favor.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd.: We are adjourned.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:57 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
MAYOR TAM e WEERD
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