HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007 10-26 SpecialMeridian City Council Special ~#~eting October 26, 2041
The h~leridian City Council Special fleeting was called to order at 1:40 P.f~l. on
Friday, Gctober 2fi, 200? by Nlayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, David Zaremba, Charlie
Rountree Eby telephone}.
Members Absent: Joe Borton.
Staff Present: Bill Nary, Len Grady, Bruce Freckleton, Clint Dolsby, Keith Watts
and Will Berg.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba G Joe Borton
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
`X Mayor Tammy de INeerd
Item 2. Cooperative Construction and Reimbursement Agreement far
Noah Black Cat Trunk Sewer witty Brighton Developmq~t, Inc.,
Treohaven, LLC, Primeland Development Group, LLC and the
City of ~I~ridian:
Nary: Madame Mayor, Members of the Council I could probably start. This
Cooperative Construction Agreement was something that was directed to us to
bring forward. We did have a public inaudible} process which was required by
state statute. We have reviewed the Agreement with both Public Works as well
as the signators from the development community that are seeking this
reimbursement agreement. We have negotiated the terms. there are some
outstanding issues in regards to some of the costs that I think Nllr. Grady wants to
discuss. They did provide a written copy of the Agreement and if it is approved
by the Council then we can go forward with it today, but this is essentially a
reimbursement agreement similar to others we have done recently for sewer
extension projects. I think Mr. Grady had some issues that are outstanding in
regards to some of the costs.
De Weerd: Ckay, Len.
Grady: Madame Mayor and Members of the Council one of the outstanding
issues was the construction services amount. When going through these it was
determined there were approximately $140,000 worth of construction services.
That equates to about nine percent. Typically we are seeing anywhere from
~M~ridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2fi, 2001
Page 2 of 27
three to five percent to do this similar type of work. we feel the city could
probably do that for somewhere around $30,000 to $40,000 with a contract with
J-U-B and then some project management that would betaken care of by Clint or
Kyle. You know, if you throw that in we are in the neighborhood of maybe
$40,000 to $50,000 and we think the project management costs that they have
shown are excessive. If we were to take that over we would just issue a contract
with J-U-B and then like I say, turn the actual payment and verification over to
one of our engineers. If that is option, we are willing to do that.
De ~leerd: Council questions?
Bird: l~ladame >~layor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Len, how much did we pay J-U-B to do the original engineering design of
this trunk line and is it not normal for the engineer on record to do the inaudible}
engineerthatoversees the job and also is responsible for "as builts" and stuff like
that? Is this the way we have done the south deals, too? Our engineering firm
only went so far and then another engineering firm picked it up?
Grady: Madame lNayor and Councilman Bird, yes that is exactly what happened.
In fact J-U-B is concerned that if he then goes and reports to another developer
he gets himself in between the city and the developer and they are just worried
about a conflict of interest. So they preferentially tried to remove themselves
from that process.
Bird: And what did we paythem to engineer the project?
Grady: It was approximately ten percent.
Bird: $151,000?
Grady: Clint said not quite $151,000.
Bird: To engineer and then not -Len the only thing I am fearful of and if we get
two engineering firms and we run into some problems, all you are going to get is
finger painting, I have never- i haven't spent any time in the utility construction,
so I can't speak of that, but I have never known on a construction project that you
build a building where you have had an architect draw it and then have another
architect oversee the building of it because of the simple fact that we are asking
for some real problems, I believe. I can't believe -- if they charged us $157,000
to draw those plans that that had to have oversight included in it. I don't know,
Len.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
Qctober 26, 2001
Page 3 of 2~
Grady: Madame Mayor and Councilman Bird typically we don't get an estimate
for the construction services until the project is designed and ready to go.
Othen~vise it really is a shot in the dark as to the issues. But, to answer your
question this whole project has been a little bit extraordinary. We agreed to go
ahead and push this design and get it going so that we could meet the
developer's timeframe in anticipation that we were probably going to build it; then
we flipped to the private industry building it. So it is not like we anticipated that
we wouldn't do it necessarily, we just new we wanted to get going with design
and so that is what we did.
Bird: If we were to build it, J-U-B would be your overseer?
Grady: Correct.
Bird: But they are fearful to be the overseer now for that $30,000 or so because
they don't want to get between the city and the -because in my book and we will
discuss this at a later date and I don't know why -Bill and I have discussed this
numerous times, why we even had to go out for public bid, but anyway -
because we are buying a finished product from a private company. That is no
different than Mayor going out and saying I will buy this building across the street
that is already built, in my opinion. But I am not legal.
De Weerd: Just for the record, I can't do that.
Bird: Well, I know you can't, but anyway.
Grady: I they were concerned that they would be -- you know, they did the
design work for the city and then they are also putting themselves in a
construction role for the developer and if there is conflicts who is their master, so
to speak? Do they serve the developer in a construction role or do they serve
the city in the design role?
Bird: Well, the way that I look at it, Len and I might be wrong, but they are
working for both -they have designed this product and say this is the product
and the way it needs to be built and this is it. So they are basically working for
the guy that is building it and the city. There should not be any conflict. I mean,
yourdepartment has bought off on the plans, right?
Grady: That is correct,
Bird: The builder is gaing to build the plans to the satisfaction of that engineer.
The thing that I - and I will be real truthful with you, I am shocked that they can
find another engineering firm that would even get in the middle of this. Because
what is going to happen if the design is off five degrees and I am talking out of
my head here because I don't know anything about that; but what happens and
J-U-B says oh that is not our fault. That is somebody else's fault. That engineer
Meridian City Council Special Meeting ~
October 26, 2001
Page 4 of 21
says no it is J-U-B's fault. Then we have the job shut down. We have already
lost 45 days to two months because of having to go through public bid and stuff.
don't know, I am real - and I know you believe this way, too, that private can do
it faster and better most of the time. You have stated that many times, too.
Grady: That was certainly my intention to proceed that way, but I can't with a
straight face say that with these costs. Now I have talked to several other
engineering firms and its actually fairly typical, for example, somebody with ITD
to do the design and then to have another engineer to come and do the
construction. It is done quite a bit. What is not done is to have somebody
reporting to both; to two different masters and that is what we would be asking J-
U-B to do.
Bird: But, Len, I guess I have got this confused in my mind, which isn't hard to
do. The city is buying a finished product. It is no different than buying a building,
What the private industry is going to do - in fact, we should probably have let
them higher the engineering firm why you had to buy off on the plans and have
them do the whole thing and let the same firm be responsible. Because who is
going -- in the final end which engineering firm is going to be responsible for
everything in it? How can you expect somebody else that hasn't drawn it to
come in and do the "as builts"? I just can see and what I felt was we were just
buying a finished product. They would turn it over and they would do the things
completely on the private end of it and say here is -basically they are sticking
their necks out. We didn't have to buy it. ~~
Grady: Councilman Bird thinking back when we were still talking about
reimbursement agreements and who was going to do what, I pulled the trigger on
J-U-B again to make sure that we had this product up and ready so that we could
bid it. Had we not done that, we would just be starting the design right now
because this is the first time we have an agreement with those people. The
engineering would have been built into that reimbursement agreement and we
would start our design today. So 1 think by pulling the trigger, I think it was the
right decision and I also, like I say, spoke with several engineering companies
and it is not uncommon for somebody like Civil Survey to come in and do the
construction services. What is not common is to have one engineer reporting to
two different entities and that is what we would be asking J-U-B to do.
De Weerd: I guess my question would be is why would they be reporting to two
different agencies if we are contracting this out privately? They will be the project
oversight; we will still have the inspection responsibilities as we do with any
project, but it would be privately run and kind of a turnkey. I guess that was my
understanding -
Grady: Understood Madame Mayor. If there is a problem out in the field, J-U-B
would not be able to argue on our behalf and they would not be able to argue on
the developer's behalf because they have two different masters, so to speak.
Meridian City Council Special hlleeting
October 26, 2001
Page5of21
think for them to put themselves into a situation where there is a problem in the
field, we would expect them to be protecting our interests; the developer would
be expecting them to protect their interests and J-U-B, really by ethics code of
the P.E. Board can't do that.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
DeVlJeerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: But Len, don't you believe that there would be less conflict with one
engineering firm doing from start to finish than having two? I can't see where J-
U-B would ever have to be in between the builder and the city because they have
drawn the drawings and if it is not done to their specifications that is the
developer. The city would have nothing to do with that. J-U-B has a stamp and
realize most of these stamps are hard to read and you don't know sometimes if
they are even on the same project they drew, but I just don't know. i know what
we are dealing with and with your self in the Public Works and the three
developers we are working with, we are not going to have any problems. But, if
we set this as a precedent, I could see us having some big time prablems
between having two architects on the same job or twa engineering firms on the
same job. I can see us getting ourselves into s5me awfully hot water. I have
said my piece.
Grady: Madame Mayor, Councilman Bird in that particular case that actually fits
in with having the city go ahead and run this project. It takes care of that
particular issue and in this particular case, I believe we can do it cheaper. So it
fits in with one of the scenarios that I wanted to present today is that the city go
ahead and contract with J-U-B just to finish this up. We have some excellent
inspectors on site that keep our engineers informed. I think we can do it
efficiently. I hate spoken with Brown Construction. They are willing to honor
their contract price if the city takes it over. That is certainly an option for you.
Short of that, I would recommend that those total construction management costs
be reduced quite a bit. Nine percent in this industry is unheard of. It is typically
three to five. Engineers love to get six and again Matt Schultz on the south is
doing the exact same thing. He has hired an engineer to come in and da that
and at least one of those sections is 2.8 percent overhead. The precedent is set
that it can be done.
De Weerd: Sa Len, what you are saying is we can do this project for less in the
same timeframe?
Grady: Well, I don't know what the timeframe is. I haven't seen a schedule yet.
De Weerd: Then why did we go down this road?
Nrleridian City Council Special Meeting
October 26, 2007
Page fi of 21
Grady: It was back when we thought that we could have things done by private
industry that was faster and cheaper. It is something that I believed was the
case and this was sort of the mo~`el that was going to set that precedent.
De Weerd: And then we told them they had to do a public bid?
Grady: I can't speak to that. That is not a Public Works issue.
De Weerd: No, it is a city issue. It is a city one.
Bird: Let me state something too. I did call around - like I told you I don't know
the utilities, the contractors or the CN1's for those jobs, but I did call building CM's
and four to five percent is right. Now if we take out the engineering and the
surveying and the testing, their actual construction management is about four
percent. I will be truthful Len and I didn't know that this was happening and
don't know if the other Councilman did or not and this is my fault for not knowing.
But, I can't believe we would pay somebody $151,000 to engineer something and
all they had to do was draw the drawings and be done and they didn't have any
responsibility after that. You know when they hire this other guy their
responsibility goes away.
Grady: Councilman Bird, I can't agree with that. I think their responsibility lies in
that design and that stays with it. If the design is faulty it doesn't matter who built
it. It still falls back on them.
Bird: What does their signed stamp say?
Grady: I am sorry, I am not sure I understand the question.
Bird: 1 will bet you somewhere in there and this guy here could probably answer
this for sure, but I bet somewhere in there it says when another engineer,
architect or something becomes responsible for the installation of this, our
responsibility goes away. I think that is what it says. Like I said, 1 have never
read many engineering, but I have read a lot of architect for it and that is
basically what it says. Anyway, I would like to and I don't know about the other
two --are you sill there Charlie?
Rountree: Yes.
De Weerd: Are you following this?
Bird: Are you tired of hearing metalk?
Rountree: No, go ahead. It is an interesting dialogue and is kind of a conundrum
that we have got ourselves into.
Meridian City Council Special lNeeting
October 26, 2001
Page l of 21
Bird: I agree and if you and David agree I would like to hear from Frank also.
Zaremba: Madame Mayor if I may ask one question ahead of that and show my
ignorance? We have in front of us the bid sheet that has severs! bidders and my
question is to whom were those bids submitted? Who opened them the city or a
private developer?
vVatts: I~ladame Mayor, Council Members and Councilman Zaremba the bids
were actually bid to the developer, opened by the developer and in the case that
if the city took this over the actual construction cost would still have to run
through the developer. The city could manage it, but the $1.578 million for the
construction, would have to run through the developer, I believe, since we did not
issue the bid and they were not submitted to the city.
Zaremba: I guess that is a legal question. Are we able to take over? It was
apparently a reasonably public bidding process that happened the way we would
have done it if we had done it. But, can we take it over?
Nary: Madame Mayor and Members of the Council, hllr. Grady asked me that
before we started the meeting. I don't know a legal reason that you can't. I think
the problem is and that is why I asked Mr. vUatts' opinion on was because we
weren't the agency that was submitting that - I mean if inaudible} Construction
wants to honor that that is fine. I don't know -that is a unique question and
don't have an answer. The statute is new enough that it is hard to tell whetheror
not we would still have to manage this through Primeland Development or DBTP
since they were the actual agency or actual entity that was seeking those bids.
Because this wasn't something that was contemplated at that time.
Zaremba: Would the losing bidders have any call to say against the city that we
were doing something wrong?
Watts: No. My first response would be if they were bid to another public agency,
we would be able to take it over. If it was a public agency. But, they would not
have any recourse on the bid.
De Weerd: Charlie?
Rountree: Madame Mayor that was my question that if we pulled that particular
item or that - not we if the developer pulled that item out of the bid package after
the bids had been opened, wouldn't that invalidate any of the bids?
Watts: The project management information was not park of the bid.
Rountree: Not part of the bid?
Watts: No.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 26, 2001 ~,
Page 8 of 21
Rountree: So it seems to me the first question in the approval is that we approve
or deny the bid amount and then hash out who is going to do the project
management?
Watts: Yes, that is my understanding as well.
Zaremba: Councilman Rountree you are saying that we first need to validate the
award of the bid? Is that what you are saying?
Rountree: That is what I am hearing and then if there is a question on a project
management in cost and we have flexibility along with some flexibility on the part
of the developer we can come to an agreement that the city is going to do it or
some other party is going to do it for a lesser cost. I don't see why that should
necessarily hold up the awarding ofthe bid.
Watts: l~ladame N~ayor and Councilman Rountree Bill will have to clarify this for
me, but my understanding would be that we would enter into a contract. We are
not necessarily awarding the bid, we would award a contract to the developer for
that bid amount. Then we would negotiate how the management of that project
would take place.
Rountree: And that would be part of that agreement as well?
Watts: Yes.
Rountree: okay.
Bird: lNadame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
F~
Bird: I and Councilman Rountree chime in here if you don't agree. I have a
problem with the contract for the work being under Primeland who would be the
boss, to put it in simple form, to the contractor doing the work. But public is going
to do the inspections and stuff. I would have to think that the low bidder might
want to take another look at that and we are talking about having engineering
firm answering to two people. That poor general contractor answering to two
people, too. Plus he is going to be answering to an engineer. I feel this is
something and I hope we will continue to do our projects this way and this is
something that we have got to work out, but right now we need to sit down and
see if we can't negotiate some stuff. But, I don't think we can take the
construction management the way we bid it and everything without delaying it a
long time and having private responsible for the building of it and the public
responsible for the engineering, which we have already done and the inspection
and ail that stuff. So, I don't know. I would like to
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 26, 2001
Page 9 of 21
Rountree: Madame Mayor, Keith I guess my sense is that this project has been
designed by J-U-B is that correct?
Grady: Correct.
Rountree: So they are responsible for the engineering. If there are field
situations that are encountered that are different from what their engineering
design is and if those plans are altered only J-U-B can alter those plans;
otherwise you are getting into a situation where a set of design step plans are
being altered by either a job foreman or another engineering firm. They won't do
that and if it is done without J-U-B's knowledge and if something does go
haywire, J-U-B rightfully would object and accept no liability.
Bird: That is what I was saying earlier.
Grady: Nradame Mayor, Members of the Council, Mr. Rountree we would
obviously retain J-U-B to protect our interests there. We would make sure that
any of the design changes would be -you know they would be our
representative to make sure that whatever design changes that we were
protected. So I think we are okay there.
De Weerd: Council let's listen to the developer and get their impressions and be
nice. How this has sounded looks a little hairy, but Frank.
Variele: Frank Variele. I am one of the member developers party to this
Agreement. My address is 1320 Bell Tower in Meridian. Madame Mayor,
Council Members to say the least this has got my head spinning. Where to
begin? I think the issues you raised are very valid and from the very beginning
as we entered into this process we were quite surprised that the design engineer
would not work with the developers and would only be representing the city.
Although IIJI'r. Grady indicates that this is common practice, we find it to be highly
irregular and not at all common experience to any of the three developers that
are party to this. The only reason that we were able to get another engineer to
step up and be responsible for the project's construction management and the
"as built" drawings in my opinion is because that engineer works for one of us.
Otherwise, !don't think we could have gotten anyone else to step forward and
take that position. The cost that you see in your cost breakdowns of $60,000 for
that individual is somewhat of a duplicate cost we are paying again for what we
believe J-U-B should have been doing and if J-U-B was to do it we believe it
could be done at a much lower cost because they are familiar with the project;
they are familiar with the drawings; they did the design and they are already to a,
certain extent accepting liabilities. When we bring in another engineer that
engineer starts from ground zero and is accepting a lot of liability for-- you know
he did not receive the $151,000. In any event, we were able to meet the
requirement that was put upon us that developer provide that engineer to fill that
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2fi, 2001
Page 10 of 21
position and we did that in accordance with the bid documentation and the
agreement that you have before you. The other cost that you see outlined in that
$138,000 is one $65,000 for the management fee and as Councilman Bird
indicated that does equate to about four percent. The survey is also an item that
the developers were required to provide and that is a control line, the center line
of the sewer along with manholes and control points that we are required to
provide and be responsible for. The testing and inspection verification number is
an item that we added again because again we are being required to be
responsible far the testing and cerkification of the project as well as the actual
original testing will be done by the contractor. It is in his bid the $1.5, $1.6 million
number that you see that he has provided. He has construction staking and
testing included in that. But, since the developers were made responsible for the
testing we felt it was essential that we have verification of testing so that $4,250
that you see there is for us to go back and do spot testing of the contractors
testing to ensure that what we are seeing is correct as well as if we do not agree
with a test that the contractor provided that we would then be able to provide
verification testing that things are as they should be. So in reality the $138,000
that Mr. Grady brings up is not at all the contract management of the project. It is
a combination of the $65,000 four percent number of management along with
other costs that we were required to put in based on the way the project is
structured. There is no reason in my mind that if the city required J-U-B to act as
the engineer on this project and handle the construction management that that
still couldn't happen. The allowance here of $60,000 could be struck. We would
be happy to work with J-U-B. I disagree with them. I do not believe -well,
disagree with J-U-B and that they would be working for two masters. I don't see
that at all. We are constructing the project in accordance with their plans and
specifications. I believe that they should be held to be responsible for those
plans and specifications. That is a decision that the city would have to make.
That is a negotiation that the city would have to fulfill. From the very beginning
as we tried to communicate with J-U-B, they would not talk to the developers at
all. Any communication we had with them was done through Mr. Grady. That
made it very difficult at the onstage of this process. But, as the city required us to
fulfill the needs without J-U-B, we have done that and it is quite obvious that
there are some numbers here that are higher than they should be, but that is the
reason why.
Bird: Frank I have a question on the $1.5 or $1.6 million let's call it, the bid
amount as I understand this and the Agreement and I haven't read through it -
but, you will be paying, you three out of your own pockets will be paying this
contract to IWr. Brown or Brown Construction and then at the end you will receive
this money from the city?
Variele: That is correct, Councilman Bird. The Agreement is written where the
developers will be advancing the money for the total project out of pocket and
might add that we are assuming all of the interest costs, none of that cost is ~~
included in the cost that you see and our estimate on that number is about
~Ileridian City Council Special h~eeting
October 26, 2007
Page 11 of 21
$30,000 to $40,000 that the developers are absorbing for the cost of that money.
At the completion of the project, there is a method of payment outlined in the
Agreement after it has been accepted and approved and then we receive
payment and it becomes city property.
Bird: That is what I wanted to get pointed out that you guys are taking care of
interest and everything like that and it is your money until you give us the final
finished product.
Variele: That is correct Councilman Bird. It is our money and to a certain extent
it is our sewer pipe.
Bird: That is right.
De Weerd: Yeah, kind of.
Bird: If we don't pay it is theirs. They don't have any place to hook it up to.
Zaremba: They just pack it until it is full and dig another.
Bird: Anyway, Madame Mayor.
De weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
~~
Bird: Frank while you are willing - if Len can go talk to J-U-B and get them to
came on and be the construction engineers, too and in the same token you
should be able to go direct to it as contractors or hike should be able to or
somebody. Anytime you have to go through different people then it's delays. We
have already delayed this project a couple of months. Would you be willing to
drop out the engineering of the $60,000?
Variele: Councilman Bird absolutely. We have no reason to want to add cost to
this project. It would not be necessary.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree do you have any questions for Frank?
Rountree: Thank you Madame hllayor. No, Frank did a good job explaining and
helping clear up some of the issues. My comment is and I don't know that Len or
Bill or Keith or any of them would agree and Keith Watts but it seems to me the
inaudible--~ going to change J-U-B to do something for the City of Meridian - as
they did that they are the City of Meridian, they are our representatives. We are
one. I am having a real hard time with the logic that they seem to be coming up
with that they would be working for a developer and the city. It is the city's
design and they designed it for us and acting in our regard. If they are the
construction engineers on the design that they work in our regard then they
should only be answering all that we ask them to do and that is provide a sewer
Meridian City Council Special~~4eeting
October 26, 2007
Page ~ 2 of 21
line per our standards and if that means that they have to tell a developer that
something needs to be done different because there's something that would not
~inaudible~ obvious in the design process then I am assuming the developer is
going to be willing to bare that cost and ultimately the city. I am just real
confused at why it's so convoluted. I don't know. I agree I think they ought to be
able to do their project constructions well.
Zaremba: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Are we saying that J-U-B's issue is -let me backup. They have been
paid far what they provided so far i assume. Is their issue whose name would be
on the check for any continued work? Is that why they feel there is a conflict?
Anybody know the answer to that?
Variele: Councilman Zaremba the understanding that I was given at the onset of
this is that they are concerned about being caught between the developer and
the city and who they would have to represent and it would be a conflict within
their licensing. Some of these things, I believe, could easily be handled by just
simply assigning the darn thing to the builders. If we don't deliver this project to
the city, fully in compliance with the plans, fully incompliance with all of your
inspectors you aren't going to buy it from us. That is really where it stands. I
mean, it doesn't say at the end of this you have to buy it. It says unless we have
complied with all of the specifications that your inspectors have signed it off as
they would any Public UVorks project and so on and so forth. The management
that we are going to be doing is going to be extremely diligent to be sure we are
in compliance with plans specifications and all of the city requirements so that
you will buy this and accept it. I fail to see where there is a conflict of interest
there. I really do. Again because it has never been our experience where we
have seen an engineer do this. We have built - we ran the Ten Mile line up Ten
h~ile to Bridgetower six years ago and we had none of these issues and probably
J-U-B did the design of that one. It is highly irregular. This is not the normal.
Rountree: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Yes, Charlie.
Rountree: If I might interject and I appreciate Frank's comments. I think
probably one of the things that is driving this and we probably will see it more and
more in the future is the situation with McCall and all the things that have gone
on up there between engineering firms and ~dlcCall and construction operations
and etcetera. Sothis may just be a fall out whit occurred up there.
De Weerd: I don't know. I do know that this is new and always with new
agreements and a new process and a new approach there is a lot of details that
ti-
[~eridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2fi, 2007
Page 13 of 21
seem not so easy to deal with when you get to them. we can look back and
think wow why was that so complicated, but we are in the midst of it and it is not
as easy as it might have seemed it should be. I look at the last project we had at
Meridian and Ib'IcMillan with ACHD and the private developers. Ullell, that was
project number nine, so their process was well under way. They have worked
through the devil and the detail type of things and we are at the very beginning of
our public private type of approach. You know these are the painful pieces. vile
are trying to figure out the way and we didn't have the right way finder and we
are doing the best we can. I know our staff has worked awfully hard in trying to
do the right things, to ask the right questions. I know our private side has been
frustrated by our process and they have had questions. This is just number one
and we are trying to do it right and I know that our staff always has that protection
and we have to protect the integrity and you know that. It is, Council, how we
can move this along and that is why we had this special meeting, so we didn't
delay the project any further, but again, we need to get through these details so
we can get this project underway. Jay did you have something?
Bird: Can I ask a question before Frank goes down, Madame Mayor? If we were
to twist or Len was to be able to twist J-U-B's arm, which I feel it should be and it
shouldn't be hard to do and I hope as a city we will never allow an engineer to
just draw the plans and not see it through because we are asking for trouble. We
have been successful. Dur private public adventures have been very good up to
this point and I want to keep it that way and we have got to do that. If we were to
do that, Frank do you believe -- with them there that the surveying and testing
and inspection could go well also?
Variele: Councilman Bird the - I am not privy to what their agreement with the
city is. I don't know what they have included and not included in that. I believe
you are really looking -what we really are talking about is $60,000. ~ find it hard
to believe that they are going to come out and do the construction management
for $30,000 to the level that the developers and the city would want to see. We
are much more intent on the degree of management that is performed out in the
field. One visit a day is not enough. Mlle are not going to be able to spot
problems, get them corrected, spot potential areas of delay and get those
corrected before they become issues if you are only out there once a day or once
every other day. Typically that is what engineers are going to do for that dollar
amount. So we are probably not looking at saving the whole $60,000, but that
really, I think, the number that is in that realm. I think it would totally be possible
to approve the Agreement as it is presented to you and then -because then we
know we have a working document, which we can move forward with
immediately; get our contractor on line and have him ordering materials and
beginning to stage and move this project forward and the developer and the city
could then work in any method that we could to see if we could achieve cost
reductions in these areas. We would be very open to that and very open to
assisting the city in anyway we could to reduce the estimated cost on those
areas.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2fi, 2001
Page 14 of 21
Bird: That is agreeable to this Councilman as long as it is something that
believe we can -Len and you guys can work out and it is to everybody's benefit
including you three to save and cut costs or not cut costs, but save costs. We
don't want to cut.
De weerd: Be thrifty. we want you to be thrifty. Do we want to hear from Jay
now?
(Tape turned over)
walker: Jay walker representing Brighton Corporation. 12601 w. Explorer,
Suite 200, Boise, Idaho 83713. I don't want to beat a dead horse here. I
certainly appreciate Len Grady and the Public works Department for pushing
ahead with the design and at least capitalizing on their already good relationship
with J-U-B. I appreciate what Legal has done as well in trying to protect the best
interest of the city, but again I reiterate what Frank and I think some of you,
Mayor and Council Members have reiterated and that is that I think this is a very
cooperative effort and if the cooperative Development Agreement kind of hands
in hands puts the city and us and developers together rather than work
separately I think we can work together and get this accomplished with the good
design that has currently been done. I don't see where we would -you know I
have had the experience and you say this is the first, Mayor, but we have actually
completed two of these over with water extension mains and we have worked
with the Public Works Department and it is gone very smoothly. They have
utilized the engineers that we had on the roadway projects to complete a small
portion design on water extensions and it has worked beautifully and I have set
up on call work orders with the engineers to come out at specific times when
myself or the Public works Department or ACHD had questions regarding the
design to come and speak for themselves on those issues and resolve it. In my
limited experience in the engineering design arena, there is no perfect plans;
there is always going to be things that come up as part of the construction that
are on for inaudible} and you need to address those and there is no one better
to address those than those that have done the design, J-U-B.
De weerd: I don't know at City Hall we new everything that was going to
happen.
walker: And hopefully that is the case. I could be incorrect on this design by J-
U-B. They may have captured everything and encountered every uncovered
pipe, but I am certain with the number of adjacent irrigation facilities that we have
with Settler's Irrigation District that we are going to encounter some things. It
would be certainly a benefit to the progress of this project to have them involved
and to respond quickly. I think -- Councilman Bird and I were talking and they in
their clause want to protect themselves and place a two week turnaround time,
but they can do that much quicker especially as we work hand in hand with Len
and with the Public works Department. I don't see why J-U-B would ever pit
Meridian City Council Special hMeeting
4ctvber 26, 2001
Page 15 of 21
either one of us against. [think in the end the city is the owner and the
maintainer of the pipeline in the end. we will surely build that to specifications
ISPWC and to the city standards. We wouldn't have it any other way and to their
design, which they have done. So, I think based on experience I really think that
if we pull together and work hand in hand and help J-U-B to stand by their plans,
it will be the easiest way and we will minimize the costs. I guess, I haven't
combed through the cooperative Development Agreement that Frank and Glen
Fiche have put together with the city, but I am sure it provides us an opportunity
to work together for this end product and we all want the good end product. So
we are certainly willing to work Len Grady and the Public works Department,
quickly assess any problems that arise and address them with his involvement as
quickly as possible, but ourfear is that we don't delay this project any longerwith
the water coming in in the spring and we need to get going on this. I will stand
for any questions.
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Thank you, Jay.
Watts: A couple of thoughts that 1 wanted to address and I think similar to what
Len was proposing is something similar to the City Hall project, where we are
having a construction manager; somebody else is designing and somebody else
is building and we all have to work together to accomplish a project. It is similar
to a construction management project. The other thing that I wanted to say too is
the Public Works bidding process, I worked with Glen from Primeland and really
think from the time we put out the bid till now has only been maybe three weeks
or so. So, after we decided to go that direction it was a pretty quick process.
think once again it is very similar to a construction management project, where
we have separate designer, builder subcontractors.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De weerd: Yes.
Bird: Keith you can't even compare City Hall to it. We have got the same
architect inspecting; the same engineers doing all of that. Right here we are
asking one engineer to design it and the other to come in and be responsible for
building it. We have ~- LCA has designed that from day one and have been
inspecting everything and okaying it; we didn't go hire CHSQA to come in and do
that.
Watts: I absolutely agree with you on that.
Bird: That is what we are doing here. We are paying J-U-B $160,000
approximately - I can guarantee you that if you read that stamp good somewhere
they are going to be able to wiggle out.
11+4eridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2fi, 2007
Page 1 fi of 21
Vllatts: I agree that we absolutely should have the same engineer do the
construction management as the design as well,
Bird: I thought you did.
Grady: Madame Mayor, Members of the Council no good deed goes
unpunished. Holy cow. All I wanted to do was keep this project on track. When
we entered with this contract with J-U-B, their understanding was that we were
going to take it through to completion. We were the ones that pulled the carpet
out from them and I 'ust -there has been a lot of Iamb basin of J-U-B but it is
J 9
really us who have changed the game plan on them. I will just throw that out.
The $151,000 also included all of the pressure sewer all the way back to the
plant, so there was quite a chunk of that also. Again, I will remind you that RMR
Consulting, who we just finished approving their reimbursement agreement had
about 2.8 percent on -similar type thing the nine percent that Primeland is
proposing, R~IR is doing for 2.8 percent. Same situation J-U-B designed, RMR
come through and they are doing the engineering "as builts" and all of the project
management. So all I want to do is present to you that I think this is
approximately $100,000 over cost and we will just leave it at that. I am willing to
work with you - if you like these and want to pull forward I am certainly willing to
do that.
Bird: Rlladame Mayor.
Deweerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Len you said that you pulled the rug on J-U-B. I don't want anybody in this
room to not think that we as a Council aren't responsible for Public Works, too
and we are not bashing anybody anywhere because I am one Councilman that
believes in this system and I think that - well, I do have a problem when the
same engineer doesn't start and finish, but that is something that we can deal
with. I think we need to move on with it. I am sure you are willing to work with
those three gentlemen to get less costs into it if we can. I would recommend that
you go to J-U-B and see what their cost is to finish this job. I don't know whether
the other developers have entered into a contract with their engineer or not, but I
just feel sorry for another- it would be the same Len as if Brad 1Natson designed
a jab and then contracted out and hired you to come in and oversee it. You
wouldn't like it.
Grady: Understood. I realize it is not an ideal situation, but again, it was 100
percent geared towards getting this project moving solely to keep the developer
on track and it feels like the city is subsidizing, that the city is paying a penalty
because of our efforts to proceed quickly, That is just my -
Bird: I can tell you that Frank Variele's company has put in sewer and water
many times for the City of hlleridian and never got reimbursed for years. So I
.•
fVleridian City Council Special Meeting
October 26, 2001
Page 1l of 21
know that they are wanting -they are good business men, all three firms and
they are going to want to get it as cheap as they can too. I appreciate what you
have done 100 percent.
Rountree: I agree absolutely. To some extent I think that - I am not sure about
the $100,000 excess, I don't have the numbers in front of me obviously to play
with, but I think Frank hit on some of it and some of the cast and the numbers
you are seeing are going to borne by somebody and l think that the $60,000 you
are talking about is in the three to five percent for construction management. In
all the othertesting requirements for self protection may or may not be necessary
depending on how the final language in the Agreement is crafted, so depending
on how much risk one another is willing to take there is money to be saved I am
sure. I am ready to move forward. I would like to see the Agreement at least go
forward on the construction activity. If the construction management lower side
is not part of a bid then let's agree to agree that we will work that out in short
order with Public Works staff and developer's staff and get that molded into a
separate Agreement or and addendum to the Agreement on the construction
phase.
Bird: ~ladame'Mayor.
De Weerd: N1r. Bird.
Bird: Charlie would you be agreeable if in our motion we allow the four percent
and then we take the engineering surveying and testing and inspection and see if
we, between Len and Frank can't maybe negotiate that down?
Rountree: I think you have to make a call out on an attempted value engineering
and then work through that with the developer and see if there are some cost
savings far the city and them as well. Yeah, I think that is a valid point.
Bird: Is that agreeable with you, Len?
Grady: Councilman Bird if I am understanding you would agree to the $fi5,000
for Primeland and then the rest of it -
Bird: -- we would negotiate. You and Frank could sit down and we11 a lot of it is
going to depend on if we can get J-U-B to come in and do it for $30,000. There
is an automatic $30,000 change. ~dlaybe in the same token they can throw in the
testing of stuff. But, basically right now to get this construction going and it is
only fair that Primeland gets their percent because they have got to foot the
upfront bills and I can guarantee you there are upfront bills. At least gets you
started and then you guys can work this out and I know you can sit down and
work it out. Is that agreeable to you?
Grady: I will work with however you want to da it. I am wide open.
Meridian City Council Special N~eeting
October 2fi, 2001
Page 18 of 21
Bird: Is that agreeable with the three --? They are nodding their heads now.
De Weerd: Please let the public record know that there are heads nodding out
there. They are nat sleeping. They are in agreement. Rllr. Nary.
Nary: Rlladame Mayor, Rllembers of the Council the rest of the Agreement there
is I guess maybe two things if you want to do it that way. One is to make it clear
whatever you are not to exceed amount that you want for this contract.
Secondarily it does reflect in a number of different places in the contract that it is
actual cost; they are required to bring those amounts back to you before you
reimburse any of it. So you can do it one of two ways. You can approve the
Agreement as it is drafted with a not to exceed amount with that direction to the
Public Works staff and the developers that they do that. The money is'simply
earmarked in this Agreement, but you are not obligated to pay it until they bring
the actual cost and have included in your motion is that direction that you just told
Mr. Grady and the developers have agreed to on the record then as long as it
stays under that amount, you are fine. If you would prefer that they bring back a
different negotiated resolution then you could do that -the only reason I say that,
Councilman Bird, is what you are proposing they are going to have to bring back
another negotiated resolution. if that is what you would like to see then you can,
but if you want to make it to a not to exceed amount leave the contract as it is
and make that direction as it is made clear that they are going to have to prove
that to you before this is paid, you still get the same result and that allows you to
move forward as you proposed.
Bird: I have no problem with that if Len has no problem because you would be
the one responsible to see that it doesn't go overthe contract.
Grady: I will work within those guidelines. That works.
Bird: Mayor do you want a motion?
De Weerd: Anything further?
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we enter into the agreement for the north Black Cat
Trunk Line Sewer with Brighton Corp, Treehaven and Primeland and the City of
N~eridian for a contract to not exceed $1,118,go0.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: okay I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Do we have
enough clarification on that?
Meridian City Council Special ~dleeting
October 26, 2001
Page 19 of 21
Variele: Madame Mayor and Councilman Bird would that motion exclude change
orders?
Bird: ~h heavens, no.
Nary: Madame Mayor and hllembers of the Council, ~lllr. Variele, yes and no.
Yes, there is a provision that inaudible} requires prior to the change order that
that must be brought back to the Council before it is incurred and that is at their
discretion for those changes and included was also in that fee, the management
fee that that is also at the discretion of the Council depending on what the
change order is. The only otherthing l was going to say, Councilman Bird, I think
this is your intent just to make it clear that direction both to the parties here that
are the developer as well as the Public Works staff the direction to negotiate if
possible any other cast savings towards the engineering inspections surveying
through either our current engineer J-U-B or how ever that can be negotiated that
is a direction that you have also given that you would like to see before this is
brought for reimbursement.
Bird: Include that because that is what the testimony is. I didn't say it, but that is
what I meant.
~,
Zaremba: And the second intended that as well.
De Weerd: That is what all public testimony meant.
Bird: But, the change orders, no, they would come forward but I would state on
change orders, Frank, as being an owner of a lot of stuff you might ask for
authorization of work, but the change order has to originate from the owner which
would be Len or his department. Is that not right? Is that agreeable? I mean
you can ask for work authorization.
Variele: I think if your motion is just simply accepting what is in the Agreement
on how change orders are handled, we are perfectly fine with that. I was just
concerned that as you were putting a cap on the price that that would not allow
change orders, which would bean unforeseen events -
Bird: We are just going to add another mile ortwo of trunk.
De Weerd: We thought that maybe if private do it, we didn't have change orders.
Variele: Madame Mayor, hopefully that is true.
Nary: I think what Councilman Bird was really stating was that our normal
process is that if you seek a change order that goes through Public Works. If
there is some dispute or something that ultimately the Council could make that
decision.
Meridian City Council Special ~Illeeting
October 26, 2001
Page 20 of 21
De Weerd: okay any further discussion?
Rountree: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Inaudible}.
De Weerd: 4h, okay. Sorry. hllr. Berg will you please ca[I roll.
Roll Cail Vote: Bird, aye; Zaremba, aye; Rountree, aye; Borton is absent.
THREE AYES. 4NE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED.
Item`~3. Tabled from Qctober 23, ZOOl: FP Ol-02fi Request for Final Plat
approval for 140 single-family building lots and 21 common lots on
89.70 acres in R-2, R-8 and R-15 zones for Jayker Subdivision
.._
N= by Treehaven, LLC - 4042 West Chinden Boulevard:
De Weerd: 1 see Anna here.
Canning: Madame Mayor and Members of the Counci[ we have a letter from the
applicant stating they are in agreement with the CQnditians of Approval for Jayker
Subdivision.
De Weerd: Council any further information needed?
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Do I have a motion?
Bird: Madame Nl~yor.
De Weerd: I~r. Bird.
Bird: 1 move we approve FP 07-02fi.
Zaremba: Madame Mayor, point of order. Is this actually a public hearing? Do
we need to close the public hearing first?
De Weerd: No, it is not a public hearing. It is a final plat.
Zaremba: Second the motion,
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Mr. Berg will you
call roll?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 26, 2007
Page 21 of 21
Rolf Call Vote: Bird, aye; Zaremba, aye; Rountree, aye; Borton is absent.
THREE AYES. GNE ABSENT. MOTIGN CARRIED.
De Weerd: Council I would entertain a motion to adjourn.
Bird: So moved.
Zaremba: Second.
De ~Illeerd: All those in favor.
THREE AYES. GNE ABSENT. ~IGTIGN CARRIED.
MEETING ADJGURNEDAT2:49 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPRGVED:
>•.~
__ _ .~f
~- • . _ .S:
f ryd~~ F ~~ k ~~.
~~vf• ~.~
}:ti
TAIV~MY DE . ~~ , fVIAYGR
~..
~:
~.~
R
ATTESTED ~~~ ~ ...~:~ :::::::..::::::..:.
IAM G.
1 i'
! ~
DATE APPROVED
,.: ~;.:
.,;
,~
c.ro
'y• ~.
4'
I
•r A`.
h•. ~ 1-
... ~ _.
S~F: ..... • _
P ,~ .:+
{•~