HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007 08-28Meridian City Council Meeting August 28, 2007
A meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:05 P.M., Tuesday,
August 28, 2007, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Joe Borton, Charlie Rountree
and David Zaremba.
Others Present: Bill Nary, Will Berg, Anna Canning, Len Grady, Bob Stowe, Ron
Anderson, Shane Lim, Robin Jack, Keith Watts, and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Joe Borton
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: I will go ahead and open this meeting, the regular City Council meeting of
Tuesday, August 28th. It's a few minutes after 7:00. Thank you all for joining us. We
will start tonight's meeting with roll call attendance. Mr. Berg.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance:
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is the pledge of allegiance. If you will all rise and join us in the
pledge.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation:
De Weerd: Item No. 3 is our community invocation. Is Bishop John Wheeler here?
Well, we will skip this item tonight and I would hope that you all reflect and look
internally. Sorry. We just did the budget. If you'll take a moment for reflection.
Item 4: Adoption of the Agenda:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item No. 4 is adoption of the agenda.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
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August 28, 2007
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Bird: On the agenda, under Consent we have a resolution on Item L and that's 07-576.
And on our regular agenda we have an ordinance, number -- Item No. 10, which is 07-
1334. And Items 8 and 9 on the regular agenda, public hearings AP 07-006 and AP 07-
007 has been requested by applicants to be withdrawn and with that I move that we
approve the revised agenda.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the agenda as amended. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Consent Agenda:
A. Approve Minutes of July 9, 2007 City Council Special Joint Meeting
with ACRD Commissioners:
B. Approve Minutes of July 24, 2007 City Council Regular Meeting:
C. Approve Minutes of August 7, 2007 City Council Special Meeting:
D. Approve Minutes of August 14, 2007 City Council Regular
Meeting:
E. Approve Minutes of August 21, 2007 Pre-Council Meeting:
F. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: AZ 07-
007 Request for Annexation and Zoning of 1.56 acres from RUT
to R-8 zone for Amar Caa Wapoot by LandPro Development, Inc. -
2400 West Wapoot Drive:
G. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: AZ 07-
010 Request for Annexation and Zoning of 6.67 acres from an R1
zone to a C-G zone for Gardner-Ahlquist Gateway South by
Ahlquist Development, LLC -Southeast Corner of Franklin and
Eagle Roads:
H. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: PP 07-
012 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 6 lots on 6.67 acres in
the proposed C-G zone for Gardner-Ahlquist Gateway South by
Ahlquist Development, LLC -Southeast Corner of Franklin and
Eagle Roads:
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August 28, 2007
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I. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: VAR
07-014 Request for a Variance to UDC 11-3D-7a to exceed the 4
square foot area maximum for a public service information sign to
allow a 19 square foot LED reader board sign for Meridian
Elementary School by Meridian Elementary School - 48 West
State Street:
J. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Denial: AP 07-
005 Request for City Council Review of an Appeal of the Director's
Determination to deny a request for a sign permit for Primerica
Siun by Todd Mendel - 1640 West Cheny Lane, Suite 100 (Lot 2,
Block 1 of Cherry Lane Crossing Subdivision):
K. Development Agreement: AZ 06-061 Request for Annexation
and Zoning of 95.57 acres from RUT to R-8, R-15 and R-40 zones
for Baraya Subdivision by RMR Consulting, Inc - 3935 West
Franklin Road and 280 South Black Cat Road:
L. Resolution No. Platform for
Strengthening Families and Improving Outcomes for Children
and Youth:
M. Water Main Easement Agreement for Qdoba Grill (Eagle Road
by Blue Marlin Investments:
N. Water Main Easement Agreement for Qdoba Grill (Overland
Road by Kimball Properties:
O. Approve Contract for Black Cat Phase 4 Proiect Authorization
for Additional Services No. 1 with JUB Engineers, Inc. for
$4,730.00:
P. Approve Contract for Black Cat Phase 4 Proiect Authorization
for Additional Services No. 2 with JUB Engineers, Inc. for
$80,830.00:
Q. Approve Reduction in Street Setback for Crossfield
Subdivision to ten foot street setback to living area, measure
from back of sidewalk and Summary of Action for recording
and documentation of this approval:
De Weerd: Item 5, the Consent Agenda.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
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August 28, 2007
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De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: The Consent Agenda, item -- like I said, Item L is a resolution number 07-576 and
with that I move we approve the Consent Agenda as published and for the Mayor to
sign and the Clerk to attest on all papers.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. If there is
no discussion, Mr. Berg, will you, please, call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 6: Department Reports:
A. Mayor's Office:
1. Parks and Recreation Commission Appointment:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item 6 under Department Reports we are doing some clean-
ups on a couple of different commissions. We did have a resignation off our parks
commission and we will be filling that with your confirmation with Jon Cecil. This term
would expire in October of 2009. Mr. Cecil is what -- served on our Meridian
Development Corporation. He's been a very active participant and commenter -- he
commented on our pathways plan. He's got two young sons that he has avery -- a
vested interest in our parks system and its future functionality, et cetera. So, I think
most of you are familiar with John and I would appreciate confirmation of this
appointment. Any questions?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Is Jon still on MDC?
De Weerd: No. His term expired.
Rountree: Okay.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
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August 28, 2007
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De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I move we validate or approve your recommendation of Jon Cecil to the
parks and recreation commission.
Borton: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. And his term would carry through October of
2009. Any discussion? Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
2. Historic Preservation Commission Appointments:
Walter Lindgren -through April 2010
Frank Thomason -through April 2010
Carol Harms -through April 2009
De Weerd: Item number two is our historic preservation commission. We found that
these terms needed to all be renewed and those terms -- Walter Lindgren is our chair.
His term would go through April of 2010. Frank Thomason, April of 2010. And Carol
Harms through April of 2009.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve the appointments of Walter Lindgren through April of 2010.
Frank Thomason through to April 2010. Carol Harms through April 2009 for the historic
preservation commission.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second regarding our HPC. Any questions or
discussion? Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
3. Impact Fee Appointment -Angela Lindig:
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August 28, 2007
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De Weerd: Item 3 is our impact fee committee and we had Phil Kirschbaum, who had
stepped off, he had some conflicts both in time and he has moved since he was put on
this and so I accepted his resignation and would like to have Angela Lindig, who you are
all familiar with, with her involvement in Adventure Island playground and other activities
through the city, to take this place as a citizen representative. They do not have stated
appointed terms, they -- they are advisory in nature.
Bird: Yeah. They serve as long as we can get them to serve.
De Weerd: Any questions on this appointment? If not, I would appreciate a motion.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we approve your appointment of Angela Lindig to the impact fee
advisory group.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the appointment of Angela Lindig
to the impact fee committee. If there is no discussion, Mr. Berg, will you, please, call
roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. City Council President:
1. Discussion of Workshop / Meeting Format of one
Regular Meeting:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item 6-B, I'll turn this over to our City Council President Mr.
Borton.
Borton: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I think we have got, from what we discussed
before, we have got an opportunity to start in October with a slightly modified format and
the plan, starting October 9th, I believe, which is the second Tuesday, it would be set up
as a workshop format, as discussed before. There is some items on these
pre-Council agenda items that, again, as we discussed, we need to spend some greater
time dealing with and discussing without having projects and applications following right
thereafter. So, the plan would be to start in October and we have coordinated with the
clerk's office to -- for upcoming hearings to fit that time frame. October 9th to begin
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tentatively scheduled from 6:00 to 9:00, not an all-night type framework, to get two,
maybe three topics, again, more policy related, a couple items that are on for the 9th
are the gated communities discussion and the discussion and presentation of
preliminary outcomes of land use integration plan by ACHD, allow us to have those
discussions in detail and provide staff and each other with more guidance. So, if it's
okay with Council -- I don't think Mr. Nary's advised that we need to change anything
with regards to normal work days for meetings, we would just change the format and
see if it works, see if it's helpful to all of us. I think it will be.
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I think it's a good idea. I did make one suggestion to
President Borton that certainly allow some flexibility in this, that there are occasions
when we do need to take actions on fairly important items and possibly on an as-need
basis at least allow a half an hour to do those kinds of things in a session if it need be.
Not to make it a habit, but, you know, occasionally a contract needs to be moved
forward or an approval needs to be advanced to accomplish something we want to
accomplish, so --
Borton: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree did bring up that. It's a good point. We
are going to not necessarily encourage trying to fill any time with any application
matters, if something needs to get taken care of, make sure it gets on for that day and
take care of it first.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Council President Borton, sometimes I
guess maybe in the same vein as Councilmember Rountree's asking, we have consent
type of items that sometimes that extra week delay can be problematic, was -- were you
anticipating having consent sort of items that our fairly just contract approvals or license
and those things still as part of the regular agenda?
Borton: For that second Tuesday?
Nary: For that second Tuesday.
Borton: Sure.
Nary: Okay.
Borton: Yeah. That would be fine.
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August 28, 2007
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Nary: Great. Thank you.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: And, President Borton, this may have been mentioned when we talked about
this before, but are we thinking that this would replace Pre-Council meetings or be
separate from Pre-Council meetings?
Borton: Madam Mayor, I think the hope is that it will replace a great deal. It's difficult for
us, again, to have something, you know, 5:30 to 6:00, 6:00 to 6:20 -- it tends to run over
and makes it difficult to address the planning and application matters to follow. So, the
hope is that it will eliminate the vast majority and so when Council meetings start at
7:00, they start at 7:00, because we are not cranking through pre-Council items.
Zaremba: Thank you. I thought it was a good idea to begin with and with that
explanation I think it's an even better idea that -- the only door I would like to leave open
is that sometimes the items that we do handle at pre-Council involve direction to a
department and there may be times when they may not be able to wait. If they think of
it the day after our second Tuesday meeting, then, they wait a month before it comes
before us. So, we may need to leave the day open -- the door open to maybe have a
few of those items on our regular agenda, I guess.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba, I think the flexibility as being proposed is there. A lot of what
we would have in a workshop setting is kind of something that is -- is more the detail
and some of the follow-up can fall under department reports where appropriate. So,
certainly we will continue to work to those -- to that degree.
Zaremba: Great. Thank you.
Borton: Thank you.
De Weerd: So, the first workshop in October.
Borton: October 9th.
De Weerd: Very good.
Berg: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Anything further? Yes, Mr. Berg.
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August 28, 2007
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Berg: I will make sure we notify the Council as such and we will be noticing that special
meeting starting at 6:00 o'clock, because that does deviate from our ordinance, but
that's not a problem and we will try to keep all public hearings, unless there is an
emergency basis, off that agenda.
De Weerd: Okay.
Zaremba: Excuse me, Madam Mayor. Did you say 6:00 o'clock or 7:00 o'clock?
Berg: Madam Mayor, I thought I heard President Borton say 6:00 to 9:00.
Borton: 6:00 to 9:00. A good three hours.
Zaremba: Thank you.
C. Finance Department
1. Approve Change Order No. 1 to MJ's Backhoe for site
work at the New City Hall Project for the Amount of
$162,781.80:
De Weerd: If there is nothing further, we will move to Item 6-C and turn this over to Mr.
Watts.
Watts: Before you is -- or good evening, Madam Mayor and Council members. Before
you is a change order to MJ's Backhoe for the City Hall project, which will -- Wes Bettis
from Petra will go through in detail what it is -- basically, the change order resulting from
the removal for -- and the fill being brought in for the unsuitable soils, the contaminated
soils, and raising the building to the new four foot elevation. Wes.
Bettis: Thank you, Mr. Watts. Madam Mayor, Council President Borton, distinguished
Councilmen and -staff, for the record my name is Wesley Bettis, Petra, Incorporated,
1097 North Rosario here in Meridian. 83642. The change order in front of you this
evening for MJ's Backhoe and Excavation is a culmination of the process of getting the
site ready for the building and what I have tried to do with this spreadsheet is give you a
better breakdown and understanding of where these costs have come from. To
understand our process, as we made this decision -- or gave you the information to
make the decision regarding raising the building four foot as far as the finished floor
elevation goes, we began the process of making the changes to the drawings. Since
the project was already bid and we were underway, we had to take additional steps to
document this correctly and we ran into some items that were unknown to all of us, as
we are all aware, including contaminated soils, unsuitable soils, a storm drain that was
-- didn't appear on anyone's map that made its appearance one fine morning, dumping
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August 28, 2007
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several inches of water into the basement. All of these things were documented and
tracked. The architect of record LCA issued architect's supplemental instructions to
handle the design changes. These were issued to the subcontractor, in this case MJ's
Backhoe and Excavation, who put together the pricing and proceeded with the work and
these were turned in every month beginning in May to Mr. Watts and what this reflects
is the culmination of that effort up to starting on the parking lot construction. I have
broken it down into two specific aspects. One is getting the site ready for construction.
The first item is one that we have addressed before and that had to do with Ideal
Demolition dealing with the contaminated soil removal and abatement, all of the fossil
fuel heavy soils that were found on the site. The other thing we found after the building
was removed, we began the actual excavation, was that, apparently, when the original
creamery burned down in 1929, I believe it was, the building was pushed over, leveled
out, and the new structure that we just demolished was built over the top of it. So, these
soil conditions did not show up in any of the geo technical reports and, in fact, when we
began our excavation we found large pockets of ash, charred timbers, concrete, we
brought in the geo technical engineer Jericon to review this information, they performed
tests on the soils, and found them to be unsuitable for the structural loads that were
designed. So, we tracked this without knowing exactly what the quantity would be, we
tracked it as a force work account and monitored very closely the quantity of material
going off the site and, then, monitored the new material coming back in. In addition,
once we removed all of the contaminated soil and the unsuitable soils, we had a void
difference that we had to make up to get back to our bottom footing elevation and that is
reflected in the 197,000 dollar figure, which is actually a little less than 17 dollars per
cubic yard in place, which is very good, it's a little below the going market rate as
checked with a couple of different pits in the valley. We also had some fun with the final
settlement of sealing off where the contaminated soil stopped and started from the rest
of the new construction, which included pond finer on the west bank, north bank, and
south bank of the excavated area for the basement. This also included some over-
excavation, some removal of saturated soils that were -- we were able to store on site,
dry out, and re-use in other areas and our rain store system, which is the end result of
having eliminated our dewatering symptoms that we were originally planning on and
replacing it with a simple foundation drain and to answer one of the questions you
raised two weeks ago, Councilman Zaremba, we are collecting that rain water into a
storage manhole until we determine how we are going to handle this non-potable water
usage for landscape and water amenities. So, that actually turned out to be more
economical than just putting in another storm drain pit, which is how we normally handle
it, a lined pit with drain rock and letting water run into it, based on the volume for the
building. That totaled just under 60,000 dollars. To put that in perspective, we did
realize the savings that we had anticipated in raising the building finished floor elevation
four foot. There is two hundred -- almost 217,000 dollar credit from MJ's Backhoe after
we went through each of the line items from their schedule of values from the original
bid documents. We did increase the size, the height of our foundation walls, and
substantially increased two grade beams, one in either of the wings, so we had an
increase to Sidewalks, LLC, for the concrete work, but, then, in changing the exterior
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August 28, 2007
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elevation, LCA was to realize a savings with our masonry by creating more brick on our
north, south, and west elevations and eliminating some of the cultured -- more
expensive cultured stone for a savings of 32,000 dollars, for a net savings from raising
the building of 112,000 dollars. It's about $1.12 a square foot for the building.
Additional savings that are realized and not recognized in the overall budget, but saved
us in the total construction cost, eliminated the permanent dewatering solution that we
would have had to have being in the ground water with the basement at a four foot
lower elevation. The cost of that dewatering system is approximately five dollars per
square foot or 105,000 dollars. The cost to operate and maintain that dewatering
system on an annual basis was estimated to be in the five to seven thousand dollar
range because of the required additional monitoring that would occur quarterly each
year during the life of the building, being in the ground water system and pumping that
water out and probably the biggest savings was not having to deal with Idaho DEQ in
terms of addressing the water and what we were going to do with it and potential
drawing in contaminates into that ground water. We proved to IDEA that we were not a
generator, this site was not a generator of contamination, but potential to draw that
contamination into that water that we were pumping out was very real and would
become very expensive to deal with down the road. So, you made a very good
decision, very wise decision in raising the building four foot. I would like to close by
saying the cost -- the initial 160,000 is already recognized in your budget as a cost that
we are looking at now, so it's not in addition to the current budget for the building,
merely a formality to clean up the documentation and we will have some additional
removal of unsuitable soils. Fortunately we do not have to go as deep in the parking lot
area. The total for August is about 39,000 dollars for the first two-thirds of the parking
lot. I anticipated it to be somewhere between 15 and 18 thousand dollars for the last 25
foot by 269 feet of parking area in the specific right of way. Do you have any
questions?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Wes, how do we come up 162,781.80? I have been -- I have been scratching my
brain here and -- but not much to scratch, but how -- how we come up with that and --
when (thought -- I see change orders, I'd like to see the contract amount and what we
are adding or deducting, so what is the -- what's the original contractor's amount --
contractamount?
Bettis: I'll turn to Mr. Watts for some assistance there.
Watts: Councilmember Bird, Members of the Council, the original contract amount was
610,314 dollars.
Bird: And this is the only change order; right?
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August 28, 2007
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Watts: There will be an additional one --
Bird: No. But I mean up to now --
Watts: Yes.
Bird: -- this is change order one.
Watts: Exactly. That is correct.
Bird: So, their contract will be changed to --
Watts: $773,095.80.
Bird: Yes. That helps me. Thank you. Thanks, Wes, very much.
De Weerd: Council, additional questions?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: I'd just like to point out, as Wes did, is -- actually, after you and I having a couple
of heart attacks, we decided to raise -- the Council decided to raise that building, we
actually saved ourselves 112,000 dollars, so that was probably a good move.
Watts: Council member, Mayor, I would also like to point out -- or just to clarify, the
additional amounts to remove the unsuitable soils and to bring the structural fill, we
would have had to bring no matter what.
Bird: That's right.
Watts: So, when you raised the building you actually did save 216,744 dollars of the
original contract with MJ's Backhoe.
Bird: That's right. Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: If we don't have anymore discussion, I would move that we approve change order
number one to MJ's Backhoe for the City Hall project by adding $162,781.80 to their
contract of 610,314 dollars.
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August 28, 2007
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Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the request from the finance
department as indicated before you. Any discussion? Mr. Berg, will you, please, call
roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
D. Public Works Department /GIS
1. Discussion of Adoption of AutoCAD Standards for Plan
Submittals:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item 6-D is our Public Works Department and GIS. We will
look to discussion of the adoption of the AutoCAD standards for plan submittals and --
Grady: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, about a year ago we came to you with
the first part of this program and we are -- I guess at this point in time we are ready to
complete the program, so I'm going to turn it over to Shane and Robin and they can
explain how we -- how we expect that to get done.
De Weerd: Hi, Shane.
Lim: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I have some handouts. I was also given
some letters -- a letter from one of the engineering firms, so I will give you both of those.
brought Robin back, like the Mayor asked, so --
De Weerd: It's always nice to see both of you.
Lim: So, as you know, we went through and we made an AutoCAD standard and I'm
just going to go through this as we go. Basically, what it is is it states that when we get
record drawings or preliminary plats or any digital CAD-type drawings that we get them
in a format that we are prepared for and we can use throughout our system, we don't
have to take the extra time to convert it to a system that we can use. That's the basis of
what the AutoCAD standards is. The benefits of that is it keeps the work in the private
sector first of all. We don't have to hire one -- actually, probably two people just to
convert the drawing into something that we can use as we get it. Like I said, it keeps it
standardized, so when people get a drawing, whoever it is in the city, they are all
looking at the same thing and they are used to seeing it, it comes in on a regular basis
in that format. And that ability reduces our time significantly that it takes us to process
the drawing. We can manipulate it as we need to, we can pull it into the GIS that much
more quickly in automated format. And also the engineers and the surveyors are the
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ones who made the data. If we don't have to modify their data it's more accurate on the
ground for what we are using for all our modeling and purposes. And that lets us put it
right into the GIS and that disperses it to everybody instantly. As soon as it's in the GIS,
planning has it, development services has it, engineering has it, anybody who has
access to that GIS data has that item and, then, they can look at the project, not just as
a small subdivision or this commercial lot, but as the big picture throughout the city of
how it affects everybody else. How we got here. I mean the main problem was, like I
said, the transmittal. They are taking days to process and make them in there. Robin
brought the standards to you guys, we implemented the draft process where we got
drawings from the engineering firms. Based on that we did modify the process, so that
if they have a standard that they have in their system that as long as we can get the
data we need out of it, they can use their standard. We don't -- they don't need to
change to our standard. We have added that flexibility into this, so that they can use
what they are doing, we don't have to modify it. So, we modify their work flow as little
as possible on that. The next step is we did -- is we went and we -- we went to the
other municipalities and counties that also deal with these engineering firms and we
talked to them to kind of collaborate and make sure that the standard that we do will
work so that the engineering firms can work consistently throughout the valley. They
don't have to do something for us and, then, something for Nampa and something for
the city of Caldwell. So, we have kind of worked this out, so we think we have a good
system that will work for everybody with the least amount of problems and workload
pushed back on the engineering firm. So, we brought it to you, I have given you a copy
of it at the back of the handout with the Powerpoint slides, so -- and, then, the next item
-- the imagery kind of shows you our new work flow. It's now we get it from the
planning, we put it in the GIS, and everybody gets it, so everybody's on the same page,
they are all looking at the same data in the same way and they can all look at that. The
next steps would be to use the standard enhance the inter-department communications
from working our quality check processes on our drawing files and make sure that we
are all getting the data and it's correct what everybody needs. The next step would be
to work some of the city code into our automation process, so, you know, if we know
that city code says we have to have ten foot separation between water and sewer, we
can process the drawing and we can flag those areas where that's not the case. Maybe
they have to cross the street or something and it gives the people in development
services a heads up and there is lots of different ways that we could do that based on
what they need. And, then, we can -- we can collect more information. Right now we
are collecting just what we have to have to get by with sewer, water, and we -- there is
so much more on those drawings that we could use, you know, streets, street lights,
and all that stuff that we could use and, then, once in the GIS we can distribute those to
more people within the city and outside the city as needed. That's really where we are
at, so that's my presentation. Any questions?
De Weerd: Council, any questions at this point?
Bird: Madam Mayor, I do have.
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August 28, 2007
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Lim: I know that there is a letter also that --
Bird: On the letter, I do have some concerns on that. Are these -- are you -- these are
the as built drawings?
Lim: These would be preliminary construction and as built.
Bird: And as builts. And now we are -- we are getting where they don't have to -- it
addresses in some places they don't have to bring it in in AutoCAD, they can use some
other type and, then, other places it don't, so what is what?
Lim: Are you talking about the -- this letter?
Bird: Yeah.
Lim: I only read it briefly. They -- one of the main complaints they have is that they are
using Civil CD -- Civil 3D, which is another version of AutoCAD, it's an enhanced
version, and we get Civil 3D versions of AutoCAD drawings right now and that's not --
that's not affected --
Bird: That's not a problem.
Lim: -- our filter in any way. So, it's compatible with AutoCAD format, it's just an
enhanced version to help them do their job better. What we did is we put this to the
lowest common denominator, so we made our stuff work with the lowest common
denominator of AutoCAD, which is plain Jane, nothing fancy, and, then, we bring it in
and we have got Map in the office, we have Civil 3D in the office, and we have plain in
the office. Robin hasn't had any trouble as far as versions of AutoCAD coming in. We
have put it out in the oldest, plainest version and we bring in whatever you can give us.
So, as far as AutoCAD compatibility, we haven't had any issues.
Bird: Madam Mayor, follow up?
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Bird: So, what we have got is compatible with what all the engineering firms are using?
Lim: Yeah. We haven't run into any issues. Now, if they are using MicroStation or
some -- something like that that's completely different, there may be issues. We haven't
had any that I know of. And there is always workarounds with that. I mean there is --
the DXF format is an intercommunication format basically for AutoCAD type drawings
and we could always work with those if we need to. I'm sure we can figure out
something on that, so --
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Bird: That's my concern is the fact that maybe everybody don't have compatible
systems and I'm very very technology dumb, so I might ask stupid questions, but what --
and, you know, if a firm is using something that isn't compatible with us, I mean they are
not going to go -- you know, if they are doing lots of drawings and stuff, they are not
going to run out and just buy an AutoCAD or something to do that.
Lim: No, they are not. AutoCAD is really -- it's kind of like --
Bird: I'm familiar with AutoCAD.
Lim: -- it's -- it's the main one and, like I said, there is lots of different ways that we can
bring -- we haven't -- have we had anybody do anything besides AutoCAD? So, we
have yet to even run into that and that's even before the standard took place.
Bird: Okay.
Lim: So, I don't have any concerns with that and if -- I mean if one firm showed up in
MicroStation, I'm sure that we could work something out. That's not -- as long as -- as
long as we can pull the data out of it -- I mean we made it as flexible as we could have.
As long as we can pull the data out of it and you give it to us the same every time, we
are fine.
Bird: Well, I think it's a great idea. I think it's something that we need to incorporate,
but I want to make sure that we are compatible with everything that's out on the market.
Lim: Yeah. And I mean, like I said, we will work through that. We haven't had any
issues with AutoCAD as it is, so I don't see any reason, and if there is we can always
figure something out.
Bird: Thank you very much.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: Shane, it sounds like the -- and I understand where you're trying to get to, but it
sounds like your -- your desire to be flexible sort of -- the exception swallows the rule.
You're going to allow people to -- if they can't comply with the AutoCAD standard, if they
can provide it in some other form and, then, you guys can pull that data out of it, doesn't
that defeat the purpose?
Lim: Well, if you go by the strict rule of an AutoCAD standard that a lot of the cities use,
yes, it does defeat the purpose. But at the same time we have already built the
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technology that allows this, so there is no reason for us to be that firm in what we are
requiring. There is no reason for us to required the engineering firms to go just to our
standard. I mean if we wanted to do that, that's -- and that's what most places that an
AutoCAD standard get, they have a document that says this is how you do it and some
of the -- I mean the city of Las Vegas, their AutoCAD standard is 400 pages, Medford,
Oregon, there is like 718 pages. And it lines out every single thing that you have to do.
We didn't want to go there. We just -- we just want to get the drawings so we can
process it through our system. So, I mean we can go either way with that. But the
technology is already there to be flexible, so that's the way we went. Plus, you know,
feedback from the engineering firms that we work with.
Grady: Madam Mayor, can I chime in here on that? Just to emphasize that point, we
are still requiring a standard, but it's their standard. In other words, we are adapting to
their standard. We are going to -- as long as their standard -- we are able to go in and
extract the information out, we are going to continue to accept their standard and we
have adapted to their standard. Now, there might be occasions where some
information we require isn't in their standard, we will work with them to do that. Once
we get their standard established, we expect the next set of drawings to come in
according to their standards, so we only want to do that work once. What we were
finding with the previous way we did business is every single drawing from these -- from
certain engineering companies was a different standard, different layer set, adifferent --
who knows what all they threw in there and it would take John Boyd hours and hours to
pick through this. Since we have adapted this technology most engineering firms have -
- have tightened their standards and, you know, one could argue that's -- that's a good
thing anyway, so -- I just -- just felt it was worth mentioning that, so --
De Weerd: And so, Len, the other departments in the valley are -- it sounds like moving
this direction, if not already --
Grady: Very much so.
De Weerd: -- gone there?
Grady: Very much so. Shane has been real real active in gathering other support
throughout the city and I think he's really taking the lead on getting this -- getting us
there, so --
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: My first comment is I think this is an exciting step into the 21st century, the
ability to collect and pass information around among the various offices in electronic
form I think is tremendous. The one question I would have -- and maybe it's not even a
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logical question. I understand that in all of our different departments, somebody in their
office could pull this up and look at it. Does it help -- or do they even need the -- the
building inspectors that would be out in the field -- I understand the process now, they
have to review all the plans and, then, they go out someplace. Is there anything that will
be hand held that they can refer to the specs on something they are inspecting or is that
even a logical question?
Lim: I'm going to let Len take that.
Grady: Madam Mayor, I'll jump in on that one. We do put this now on our laptops and
our field inspectors take it out real-time with them --
Zaremba: Cool.
Grady: -- and they are updating that information daily. Another reason why we want to
get this information in quickly, rather than the old way, which took days, so --
Zaremba: That is so cool. Great. Thank you.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: Question for Shane or for Mr. Nary on what's been raised in the B&A Engineer
letter concerning the liability associated with transferring those unique work files over.
Is that a -- is that anon-issue? Haven't really addressed that, but I have heard other
instances that type of product be --
Lim: I will go first without the attorney knowledge, but hundreds of cities do this. It's not
a new thing. And they are giving us the data anyway. They are -- I mean we have got
the water and we have got the sewer anyway. They are giving us the drawings either
way. This is just so that we can -- we can adapt -- use it in our system. We are not
pulling anything that we really aren't getting anyway. I mean we are already getting the
disk with the drawings on it, we just want it in a format that we can use.
Nary: Madam Mayor --
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: -- Members of the Council. I mean -- I guess if they are concerned about
manipulating the data is a concern, but I mean I'd agree they are providing it anyway. I
mean it's not really an issue of these are documents that aren't available again to be
seen and reviewed by other people that review the file. So, I guess I'm not really that
certain there is an issue there of liability or concern.
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De Weerd: Further questions?
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I have a question about the process, I guess, that went
through to come up with the guidelines. It seems to me that -- and I don't know what
you did, so that's why I'm asking the question. Certainly opportunity for folks to
comment and participate in a work group to come to these guidelines, if you will -- I
would rather refer to them as guidelines, as opposed to standards, given the industry
and given the state of the technology and as quick as it changes, if we go this route --
and Ithink it's the way we all need to go ultimately, once we step into this arena we
have made a commitment long term to stay consistent with the technology and stay in
constant contact with the folks that are using the technology. So, it's a financial
commitment on our part. I don't know what will replace AutoCAD, but some day
something will. I don't know what will replace it, some day something will and it will
catch fire and all of a sudden everybody will have to do it. So, it's a commitment that
we, as well as the community that utilizes technology, is going to have to embrace and
move forward with. Ithink some of the proprietary questions that come up about the
information, they are issues in the industry, they are not just issues for Meridian. I don't
know yet if the issue of electronic signature has yet been addressed completely as it
relates to stamped plans for professional signature. I don't know where that is. Last
time I was involved with that it was kind of a gray area, so I don't know what you did. I'd
like to hear what you did with the community. I'd also suggest in my comment and
question that it seems to me that if we go there, we ought to encourage, as is at the
state level, an advisory group of consulting engineers and architects that utilize these
technologies and the other cities that are utilizing GIS applications to meet and come
together and work through our mutual issues and not make it necessarily a dictatorial
process, but a process that everybody comes out a winner, because the information is
what we want. We don't want to modify the plans, we don't want to do any of that sort
of thing, we want the best information that the engineers and consultants are providing
us to put on our database. Beyond that we will archive the plans for future use and be
done with it. But, yeah, what happens to that information is an issue not just for us, but
the whole world of information technology and it's something 1 think we need to address
proactively with the community.
Lim: And our plan was -- I mean to visit this at least yearly and go over what changes
have come about, because there will be a new version of AutoCAD, there will be a new
version of Civil 3D. Another city further up the valley is going to want an AutoCAD
standard. So, yeah, our plan is to visit this -- my plan is to utilize the web page a lot to
keep everybody updated on the changes that we make, any stuff we have coming up
and it's a quick and easy reference that most everybody can get to and I met a little bit
with the IT department about setting up a e-mail list, so that engineering firms could sign
up and we could send updates out that way as well to meet that. As far as the
AutoCAD standards, the main focus on the standard was done before I was here. I
don't know if you want to talk to Robin about how they came up -- I know that they
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talked to several engineering firms to come up with that. Do you want to visit with Robin
about that or --
De Weerd: Yeah. That would be a good idea. And also Isaw --Shane, you mentioned
that you brought it before the BCA.
Lim: Yeah. We took it to business council -- that's -- the builders and developers have
their own council group where they meet to discuss projects and that's where your letter
that you received came from was one of the gentlemen that was at that meeting. So,
we had -- actually, we had mixed reviews and we had one engineering firm who said he
would never do work for the City of Meridian and we had one guy who said, yeah, we
can work with that, so -- and, then, everybody else was kind of in the middle as far as
that goes.
De Weerd: And when did you go to the BCA, then?
Lim: Two weeks ago, 1 believe.
De Weerd: Yes.
Rountree: Hearing that comment, what makes Meridian so different than Boise or
Nampa or somebody else who has guidelines on standards for receipt of electronic
information?
Len: I think the difference is right now is that the other firms are not -- they don't have --
Ibelieve that they have a standard. A lot of them aren't -- either enforcing it, like I know
the city of Boise, they don't have record drawings, they actually keep someone on staff
who goes out after the work is done and they resurvey the work. So, they are doing it
again after the development firm has done it. So, that's -- that's kind of why we get
some of the opposition that we do, is nobody else in the valley right now that has a
standard is really enforcing it. I have heard mixed reviews from whether ACHD is or
whether ACRD isn't. I know that Nampa-Caldwell don't have one right now. And the
city of Boise does not have one that they are enforcing. I didn't go further up the chain.
I know that ITD has a standard. I don't know if they are enforcing it. Most of the people
that we worked with don't do work with ITD.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I'll tell you, I -- and I have a feeling that utilities are just as important as buildings.
If you don't have a good set of as builts when you get done, you're trouble. And
AutoCAD's been used since the inception of AutoCAD in the construction -- in the
building of as builts. I'm absolutely amazed to hear that another municipality goes out
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and does all of it after it's in. Amazing. I guess -- I guess that let's the engineers off the
hook, uh? Architects and engineers like that, so --
Lim: Just telling you what I know.
Bird: Anyway, I would like to see us be fair, but I think we need to set a standard and
have it done. We have had a -- we have had a gentleman, because we didn't do as
builts in Old Town, spent about six years trying to remember where the lines were in Old
Town. So, I'm for figuring out something, but in the same token, we have got to be fair
to the public -- to the private companies. And I have never -- I have never heard
anything that didn't intercede with AutoCAD. But, like I said, I'm not technology smart,
so -- but I know in the building industry AutoCAD is the as-built there, so --
Lim: And that's the -- what we feel is -- it allows us to be flexible and at the same time
still get everything that we need.
Bird: We would be doing the city -- the future people that will replace guys when you
retire an injustice if we don't have the right as builts when you start replacing this stuff.
Period.
Grady: Madam Mayor, can I chime in one more? I think the reason the other cities'
standards failed is they imposed their own standards. Again, I'll remind you that we are
going to accept the company's standards, we are going to be flexible and help adopt
their standards. We are also going to take the technology we developed and give it to
the other municipalities so they can do the same. So, 1 think we have a much much
better chance of succeeding than going out and imposing our standard. Now, we have
a standard if people want to use it, but, again, we will adapt as long as we can go in and
grab that information out of their drawing, we will accept their standard, so -- and I know
we have a couple of people out here that also want to talk, but I also promised Gene
Smith I would let you know that he originally was concerned that we were forcing our
standard down his throat and he wasn't very happy about that. I tried -- and apparently
there is several people out there that got that misinformation and I tried to calm him
down, I guess, is the best way of describing it, but -- he couldn't make it here tonight
and he just wanted me to let you know he was concerned about that portion of it. Scott
Stanfield, I spoke with him, and he was one of the biggest adversaries of this when we
started. Once Robin worked with him, showed what we would do and how we could
work with his firm, his comment today was he's in support of this. So, we just need a
chance to work with them and I think we can make it happen, so --
De Weerd: Thanks, Len. It's a good segway into asking Robin to come up and maybe
tell us the initial process.
Jack: Hi,
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De Weerd: Hi.
Jack: So, you're interested in kind of how this process got started or --
Rountree: How did we get where we are.
Jack: You know, originally, the drawings would come in and there would be like -- like
Len had mentioned, there would be so many layers on -- some of the drawings would
literally have 300 layers you'd have to pick through there just to pull out the water and
the sewer and the hydrants and it was the little details that you needed off of them. And
now Len has written some code and I write the filters that will actually pull off those
pieces as long as they are delivered consistently the same on the same layer. Or using
some other way of making each entity unique, so even if you have multiple lines on the
same layer, you can query out an eight inch from a ten inch if it's a different color, if it's
a different line type or style, and that's sort of how we developed that. And it's gone
pretty good I think overall. One thing I would like to do before I step down is when I
finish I would like David Bailey to come up from Bailey Engineers and you had started to
talk about the legal implications of the AutoCAD drawings, I think he might like to talk a
little bit about that from his perspective as an engineer. Do you have any other
questions? I don't know if I helped with anything or --
Rountree: Well, Madam Mayor, yeah, that's interesting -- an interesting approach that
we looked at what the industry was providing us and tried to take an approach to how to
make that work for us, as opposed to engaging the community that was providing that
and have them create a process that's comfortable for them that we could, then, utilize
off the plans the information we needed for the GIS database and the various layers.
So, I guess what I'm hearing is that there wasn't that coordinated and necessarily
cooperative effort with the industry, we took it and saw what the industry was bringing
us and manipulated it, as opposed to going out with them and telling them what it was
we were doing and what it was we were trying to do.
Jack: Initially we tried to meet with all the engineers. The first thing I did was to send
out a letter to all of the engineering firms, as well as architects and developers with a
letter and requested comments, you know, and if they come in a-mail and we sat down
and we did have meetings with the ones that were interested in having meetings with
us.
Rountree: All right. That's good.
Jack: Yeah. I have always tried to keep the door open, you know, and let them come in
and talk about what they want to and Len, of course, has always been willing to meet
with them when they would like to meet, so --
De Weerd: Does that answer your question?
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Rountree: Yeah. And I guess the last one I have to verify -- you have indicated that
you have not run into any difficulties at this point in time with the techniques that -- and
the code that you have written in how to deal with various submittals. So, in effect, you
have tested the process fairly extensively to date?
Jack: Yes. We have been running it for probably over a year now.
Rountree: Okay.
Jack: And we have got pretty much all of the engineering firms that deliver drawings to
us -- we have a code written for their drawings.
Rountree: Okay.
De Weerd: Thank you. Anything further?
Jack: Thank you.
De Weerd: Dave, did you have comment?
Bailey: Madam Mayor, Council members, I actually got involved with this with Robin
about a year ago when they sent a letter out and talked about it and I have always been
a proponent of what they are trying to accomplish, which is that excellent as builts, but I
do think at this point you still ought to -- I think Councilman Rountree is right, we ought
to call it a guideline and not standards and the idea is that -- and I think that -- while I
think it's a good idea and I think they ought to move forward with this, that we ought to
understand that what they are trying to get is data, not drawings, and there is a big
difference in what we doing there. Where they are storing this data is actually in an as-
read database. Well, great, let's ask engineers, give them to them in that format, which
we can do. You know, we have taken their standards, we have written our own filters,
they have written a bunch of filters, but that stuff is time sensitive. I mean as the
software changes their filters are going to change, and we are going to keep redoing
this. Where if we were delivering them data in a format they could use, it -- I think it
would be a lot better. So, I think this still needs to evolve quite a bit, but I think you
need to get something in place, so that they don't spend -- I talked to John Boyd, I heard
how many hours he spent trying to dig through some of the drawings and I have done it
myself to try to dig through and find stuff and it's not a good waste of the city's
resources -- or not a good use of the city's resources to keep doing that. So, I'm in
favor of that. But I do think that they need to go back and specify specifically what data
they need and only get that data. I think as far as the liability issue goes, giving all of
the data --giving an entire CAD drawing to them doesn't do the city any good and raises
concerns with the engineers of the liability of what they are giving to them. I don't think
anybody's objecting to that, you could get rid of that argument right away in saying I
Meridian City Council
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need specifically these things, manhole locations, water locations, those items. I think
they are trying to do that, but I'm not sure it's clear to everybody that that's what they
want, that they don't need the whole 30 gigabyte drawing or 30 megabyte drawing or
whatever it comes to. He said on here that they want to distribute the info and I think a
lot of engineers want to be able to see that we are giving you the information, we would
like also to be able to view it also. So, I think that that hasn't been addressed at all and
there is something that ought to be in this -- this policy that gives the engineers access
to that information to use in future stuff as well in that electronic format or in some
specific format that we could -- that we could use. And as far as builts, the -- this is way
ahead of everybody else as far as what they are requiring of as builts. Every where
else we do -- we do paper drawings for as builts, except for Boise city where we don't
do them at all, they do them themselves.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Thank you. Yes.
Bird: That's just what I was going to ask David. By the way, can we get his name and --
for --
Bailey: I'm David Bailey with Bailey Engineering.
Bird: David, I was going to ask, don't -- don't these contractors -- and maybe we got a
contractor out here -- you have a hard set of plans and as they are putting in the sewer
or water line are they not going along with the elevation -- or the typo -- or topo and all
that as they are putting it and marking it on these hard set of copy -- plans?
Bailey: That is not general practice for the contractors to do their own as builts or to
take the data on it. Usually we have our surveyor check them specifically to get exact
data or -- and pay the surveyor extra. Caldwell is having us do multiple sets of as built
surveys in between. I think the last project we are doing out there it's probably going to
cost more in surveying for as builts than half of the cost of doing the construction
drawings. I mean it's just -- it gets out of control and crazy real quickly.
Bird: Why can't they mark on their hard copy -- they have got to have -- they got to
have all the information as they lay it, all the degrees and all that elevation -- or how
deep and all that stuff.
Bailey: They all say it's exactly where you said it was on the plans, come and prove me
wrong.
Bird: And you know better than that.
Bailey: Well -- but I think the city does, too. You know, and not that they are lying --
Meridian City Council
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Bird: No. No.
Bailey: -- but they don't want to go -- they don't want to do that. I'm not trying to put
down contractors in any way, shape, or form, except for the people that do the work
generally don't inspect the work. I mean that's standard in the engineering industry.
Bird: Well, no, you don't have to inspect it, but you have to -- you can draw it. Buildings
have building inspectors, but the contractor draws the as builts on -- if anything is
changed off the details or the plans, you draw it in a red line and it stays with that
permanent deal and, then, they -- when it comes back into the general contractor's
office or the construction manager's office, they put it on electronics and take it off.
Bailey: I certainly don't want to argue with you, but that's not the way it's done in --
Bird: And don't know anything about that, that's why I'm asking. Anyway --
De Weerd: Yeah. I think we have gone a direction that --
Bird: Yeah. We don't need to go.
De Weerd: Any further questions from Council?
Bailey: Thank you.
De Weerd: Any last minute comments, Len or Shane? Robin?
Crawford: Mayor and Councilmembers, my name is David Crawford, with B&A
Engineers. Address 5505 West Franklin Road in Boise. I delivered the letter for -- on
behalf of Joe Canning this evening, because he was unavailable, he is out of town in
another City Council meeting tonight. He would like to have delivered this letter on his
own and, honestly, I wish he would have. But, instead, I'm here. So, I guess the -- we
have done a lot of talking tonight about data and how all that affects -- how that all runs
through and I know one -- I want to let you know that this letter was never intended to
say we didn't want to supply the data. Our office has supplied the CAD line drawings for
this information in the past and have done so. The trouble is is that on implementation
of any standard is -- they spoke tonight about processing the data took a couple days.
It took us like two weeks to just to get an acceptance of the -- of the information we
were providing. In the state of Idaho -- and as judged by -- well, my boss Joe Canning
is an engineer in the state of Idaho, his sealed drawings are the record. His sealed
drawings are the hard copy -- is the real thing. So, that's the premise for all that. The
problem with getting data is is that it's always expanded. It's line work for water and
sewer today and tomorrow it's the entire thing topographical surveys and -- so, the
issues with liability keep going up and if you're relying on that data for any physical
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improvements, number one, it's kind of silly -- I mean we -- even though we have record
drawings that we utilize when we create drawings, we still go out and resurvey the same
stuff, just to design to, so we know exactly what we are working with, making sure we
are on the same topographical data and et cetera and et cetera. So, now I said that I'm
going to kind of move down the -- our little letter here and we appreciate the way
Meridian has gone forward -- the staff has gone forward with processing with filters for
this -- this information and that's -- that's great. I'm sure that what we have done here
by adopting a standard is said that AutoCAD DWG formats are the standard and so
that's what you're going to submit to the city with and that's what we want and I
understand that, the AutoCAD is the standard for the -- for the country. However, we
are hoping some day that there is another viable alternative. Our office still uses an
alternative drafting program. However, it's -- it's just for some internal stuff with some
dinosaurs in our office that like it better and so the more progressive people in our office
use AutoCAD. But notwithstanding that, those options, when you say that they are
DWG only are -- because it is a standard, we understand why, but it doesn't allow for
any flexibility and so that DFX is the only industry standard that I'm aware of right now
that all drafting programs can communicate with and so I guess I would like to talk a
little bit -- it would have been nice -- this letter probably would have been a little shorter
had the staff gone a little more -- had responded to Mr. Canning's earlier comments.
The BCA Council meeting you did let me know after that happened that they were
looking at it again. We didn't know that this meeting was happening until we looked at
the -- until we were notified of it at that meeting. So, you know, there might have been a
little bit of hard feelings, I guess, that the comments that he had a year ago had gone
totally unanswered or ignored for -- up until just within the last 30 days. So, if the City of
Meridian can go -- can accept Civil 3D data or drawings or line work or whatever you
want to call it, that's great. We have -- we have issues with Civil 3D in dealing with the
specific way it processes information, exploding line types, it's just a simple way of
making an object into individual lines and exploding them and they disappear when we
do them, so we don't know exactly how to keep those around. But we might get it
figured out, so -- but the technology does change almost every year with AutoCAD.
You never know how compatible they are going to be with themselves half the time it
seems like for beta testers a lot of times. So, when we set standards we just need to be
careful we don't set standards that are not allowing some sort of flexibility and I guess
that's the biggest thing. So, a lot of our personal -- the draftsmen that I work with
personally take a lot of pride in their work and some create really good drawings that
you want to look at and other ones don't. It is considered an art form to a lot -- to a lot of
draftsmen. I don't create as nice pretty drawings as another draftsman in our office.
So, that has been an area of pride that we have been able to foster in our office and so
adopting standards has never -- layering standards and stuff is always been a little bit of
an area of contention. As a matter of fact, I think Anna called me the anti-standard
anarchist at one time, so -- when she was at our office, but -- so there is a lot of pride
that goes into that stuff. So, standards aren't necessarily well received all the time, but
we are and have been willing to provide this information to -- so that the City of Meridian
could use it for accurate locations. There is a lot of -- to go into a little bit of what was
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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said, saving money -- it definitely does save the city money and we don't want to cost
the city money by not adopting a way to get the information in. However, the other side
of that coin is that as the city grows and has -- has to deal with this information in that --
and as more information comes in, that that area of the city is going to grow. More staff
is going to have to be hired to be dedicated to the -- that information and it's going to --
so the facilities may be in place to deal with it anyway. I guess I'll just leave it at that
and if you have any questions I will stand for them.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Several times liabilities have been mentioned and pardon my ignorance, but
what liabilities -- who is at risk for what?
Crawford: Councilmember Zaremba, Mayor, I met with the Joe Canning and the
intellectual property rights attorney. The question is is -- well, number one, you know, if
we are not getting paid for it, is it covered for our E&O insurance. How much is the city
relying on that information. If it's disseminated to others, it's found to be incorrect, there
is a potential for civil lawsuits or whatever for work that could be done based on that
drawing. That's why the important thing is currently in the state of Idaho the record
information is the hard copy, the stamped copy that is -- that we have provided in the
past to the city and other cities in the area. I think that's -- the liability -- it hasn't been
tested and so we don't know what the liability is. The question that we -- or what we do
know is is that if somebody can hold you liable for it they probably will.
Zaremba: So, if I'm understanding, the risk is that a third party might rely on data that
your company supplied, but the city massaged somehow and, then, come back to your
company and sue you if it went wrong?
Crawford: That potential does exist, though, that's not exactly -- we are not too worried
about the city massaging our information.
Zaremba: Okay.
Crawford: Okay?
Zaremba: Or converting it or whatever has to be done to put it in a certain form.
Crawford: Correct. It's just if somebody's relying on it for something and it -- it messes
up their project and they have got ten million dollars on the line and the city provided
that basic information and you guys don't want to be responsible for it, so, then, it
comes back, well, we got it from these guys who said it was correct, these are
registered licensed engineers in the state of Idaho, there he is, so have at it, you know.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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So, there is a little bit of risk involved there. Again, it's to the extent that if the
information is relied on. It's not -- there is no waiver here, there is no indemnification.
We have provided this information in the past, because we knew it was valuable. We
knew the city could use it. We wanted to provide that information, so we did so. But it
was limited and based on my experience that -- those limitations tend to expand,
especially over time.
Zaremba: I understand. The current or the old system you're saying that if you have
supplied the data in a hard copy drawing or something like that, then, there is a reduced
risk of liability for your company.
Crawford: Correct.
Zaremba: Okay.
Crawford: In drafting and in displaying that information, when you're drawing these lines
they are not necessarily all 300 -- or whatever their dimension. They could be shorted
or, you know, there is a number of things that go on to get the drawings to fit on the
page. So, it's just -- though that's not typically the way it's done, it is drawn in one to
one, but -- one foot equals one foot and, then, it's -- the magic of drafting, but --
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: As the contractor is putting this in who is responsible for making sure that it is put
in as per plans? Is it the engineer that we hired or is it the city?
Crawford: I believe in the City of Meridian that we -- the city provides the inspections.
Bird: They provide an inspection to make sure that the pipe is put in right. I don't know
as we exactly --
Crawford: They provide inspections of the physically installed line. The surveyor is,
then, responsible for providing record drawings which note any deviations from that.
Bird: And they work -- the surveyor works for the engineering firm or --
Crawford: Typically it could be the same firm, it could be two different firms. It works on
behalf of the developer or the person that contracted with the surveyor to do that.
Bird: Thank you.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 29 of 49
Crawford: Again, that is provided and has been provided in hard copy and that is
provided in every area in hard copy. Boise city has taken a little more pro-active
approach and said, hey, we have got a GIS department anyway, we have all this old
infrastructure to monitor, so let's go ahead and just have somebody go out there and do
it. We know it's accurate, it's within our database, and it can be perpetuated over time.
I don't think it's a lack of -- necessarily a lack of foresight on our part, it's just how they
dealt with it. Our office has also been involved -- or at least Joe Canning as the city
engineer for Garden City and that place has got some old lines that nobody knows
what's going where or -- so, there is a lot of mapping involved in that. The city has
taken it upon itself to -- because of the need for that information, to gather it.
De Weerd: Anything further, Council?
Bird: I have nothing further, Mayor.
De Weerd: Ron?
Anderson: Madam Mayor, Council, I just wanted to add I guess our support as one of
those other city departments that uses these drawings, the public safety, police and fire,
love to have drawings of the buildings that are in our communities, because when we
respond there for emergency purposes, it's important to know where the gas shutoff and
the electrical shutoff and where certain rooms are. When you respond to a retirement
home if they tell you that they are in room 107, knowing where room 107 is is very
important. So, last year we came to you guys and we asked in our budget for an
enhancement for something called CAD Zone that allows us to take CAD drawings and
import them into a program that we can use in a fire truck and that way we can have
drawings of the buildings without having to go out and try to reproduce those drawings
that have already been drawn by somebody. So, I guess that's an example of another
use that's happening within the city and that's why it's important to have acriteria --
whether we call them guidelines, standards, or whatever, but we were running into the
exact same problems that Public Works was running into, when we first started getting
these drawings there was multiple layers on there, we are not draftsmen by trade, we
are firemen, and trying to figure out -- all we want is a simple layout of the building with
those utilities shutoffs and those kind of things, but having to pick through 300 layers to
try to find those things was next to impossible. So, as the fire department it's not just
data, it's not just elevations and GIS locations, we also want drawings, something that
we can use in the field.
De Weerd: Thank you, Ron. Shane or Len, anything you want to add? Robin?
Jack: Something -- one of the things that came to my attention as he was --
De Weerd: Robin, do you want to pull that down a little? Thanks.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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Jack: What's your name? David. One of the things that came to my attention as David
was talking that we hadn't actually discussed or even mentioned was that this AutoCAD
standard is not a replacement of the hard copy of the signed engineering plans that they
are talking about that are drafted on paper. It's not a replacement of it. We are going to
-- we save those, we scan them, they are going to be in the GIS as well and so you will
be able to pull up from a subdivision, pick on it, and be able to look through those plans
that have been drafted so carefully by the drafters and by the engineers where they
have actually signed it. So, any of the data that we actually import, you know, it's not
going to have any effect on the paper drawings. And that was something that I just
noticed hadn't been brought up, so --
De Weerd: Thank you, Robin.
Jack: Thanks.
De Weerd: Len.
Grady: So, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, what we are looking for tonight is
just your -- I guess guidance to direct us to go ahead and work with the legal
department to get a resolution drafted up as quickly as possible and get this enacted,
so --
De Weerd: Ma'am, did you have comment? If you will, please, state your name and
address for the record.
Holleran: Briefly. I'm Diane Holleran with HGR Engineering, 412 East Park Center
Boulevard, Boise.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Holleran: I'd like to state my support for this. I'm a GIS professional that's been in
consulting engineering firms for the last eight years. Before that I was GIS coordinator
with Ada County Highway District for nine years working in the design construction
section under Steve Sticklemeyer for any of those that may remember him and while
this is fairly new it's a very old concept. We were getting digital CAD submittals back
when I was at ACHD. As an engineering firm we deliver digital data all the time, in both
CAD form and in GIS format. We work hand in glove with our CAD folks internally and
almost all the projects that I'm aware of that we do for local agencies we follow CAD
standards and support those. As an engineering firm it actually does save us money if
we have people using the same set. While it's an art form, at the same time if we want
to have people work on the same drawings at the same time and share work back and
forth, it's much much easier if everybody is working off the same set of -- set of
guidelines and standards to work with. So, I support this wholeheartedly. It's a good
step for you guys getting information into your systems quickly and easily.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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De Weerd: Thank you.
Bird: Thank you.
De Weerd: Any other comment? Does our sole contractor have any comment? Just
thought I would ask. Shane?
Lim: I just have one -- I just want to make one final clarification. This is -- this is just a
standard for how the drawings are submitted. Len and those guys already have a set of
city code that tells the information that we need for a project. This isn't what's on the
drawing, this is just how we get the drawing. That's a whole other ball of wax that the
people who actually need the data use. This is just how we get it for what's on there.
De Weerd: Okay.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I guess the comment I'll make is related to what I heard and
it seems to me that the rub, if there is a rub, is how the information will ultimately be
used and I can agree that if it does go out in the public domain, which it would if it's on
our system it's public record, those records need to be identified that these do not
represent -- and I don't know what the words are, but necessarily factual or precise
information, it's the best information we have in terms a location and/or what the feature
might be. But, in fact, if it identifies a water line and it says see plan sheet thus and
such or it's keyed to the hard drawing copies and they go to that to get their information
of what the depths might be, again, unless it's an as built and been signed off by
somebody, anybody who might ultimately use those records need to understand and I
think typically they do understand, they need to go out and make sure that it's verifiable.
But maybe that's something we incorporate on our system when -- when there is
somebody outside of the City of Meridian who simply wants to do how many fire
hydrants are there in the city and you pull up that layer and you count them -- or it
counts them for you and tells you, as opposed to what are the coordinates in what
degree of precision are those coordinates for the location of a sewer trunk line in my
backyard. And if I'm asking as a citizen, I get a message along with that information if,
in fact, I can access that information or hack into it, that, hey, this is not official
information and does not necessarily represent the situation as it might be in the field, in
actuality. To me it's inventory. It's just general information. And like Ron said, you
could probably give him a -- you wouldn't even have to give him a drawing of the
building as laid out by the architect, if it was a general shape of the building and showed
where the rooms were and generally what elevations or what portions of the building the
fire suppression equipment is, that would be all he needs, so he wouldn't need a
measured drawing. But I think that's more I hear the fear is that somebody is going to
take that information and assume that information is spot on and do something in terms
of an investment or an action that might result in a consequence to me. That's
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August 28, 2007
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something that I'm recommending you go forward, but you work out with the legal
department on how -- how we get around that issue.
Grady: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I agree and we will work with the legal
department and get some disclaimers. It will protect us probably more than the
engineer who developed the drawings anyway. So, I think that's a good idea.
Rountree: I would suggest you also work with the engineering community.
Grady: I think they normally have some disclaimers on their maps which we could
probably use, so -- okay.
De Weerd: I think staff has some direction and we would anticipate those key issues
may be discussed when you bring back the resolution and what has changed, if
anything, and how you're addressing it.
Grady: Sounds good.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Len, can we send out -- I'm looking at the draft that you proposed. Can we
send out the draft to all the area engineers you make reference to using this format or
approve -pre-approved format that has to come to the GIS department to let us check
it, to invite them to do that in advance of any particular application, you know, give them
some period of time saying we are going to forward or probably going to go forward with
this process, please, submit your drawings format, drawing standards that you utilize,
give them a chance to get it checked by you guys before the -- so you don't get caught
cold. You put September 1 in the draft. Clearly you don't want it in effect September 1 -
-well, you do, but --
Grady: Well, we were hopeful we had enough public hearings, but we can do more. I
mean enough -- sorry. Enough input. Like Robin said, we did initially -- we have
worked with the engineers over the last year, we went to BCA, and now we have had
this meeting, but what we can do is -- like you said, we will go ahead and send this out
mass a-mail and for, you know, more input, so we better give ourselves about a month
or so.
Borton: Madam Mayor? And I'm not necessarily talking about having anyone rewrite it,
but you merely -- this is the way we are going to go forward, you're inviting them the
opportunity to get that pre-approval done now.
Grady: Okay.
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August 28, 2007
Page 33 of 49
Borton: Of their drawing standard.
Grady: Oh, I see what you're saying. Oh. That's fine.
Borton: Because once they have got that pre-approval, then, they are good to go.
Grady: Yes.
Lim: And we have had some firms that are just saying use the drawing that you have
right now.
De Weerd: Anything further?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Zaremba: Just along the lines of that, I'm sure you would think of it, but in such a letter I
would include a please respond by, so that somebody doesn't come in a year and a half
from now and say, well, you asked, here it is.
Lim: Good point.
Zaremba: Just a thought.
De Weerd: Thank you, Shane. We appreciate your tenacity on this. Just a few more
steps.
2. Reimbursement Agreement for Portion of Sewer to the
West of Re-aligned Overland Road:
3. Discussion of Re-alignment of Overland Road and Ten
Mile Road and Sewer Availability:
De Weerd: Item No. 2. Len.
Grady: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this one I think will be a little bit
quicker.
De Weerd: A little bit quicker?
Grady: Could be.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 34 of 49
De Weerd: That will be nice.
Grady: There is not much to report. I had contact with Mr. Jewett last week with regard
to this issue and he suggested that he wanted to work the reimbursement agreement
into the Bitter Creek agreement. I expressed some concerns that that might slow this --
this agreement -- Bitter Creek would slow this agreement down and I haven't heard from
him since. So, I -- that's about the only update I can give you on that.
De Weerd: Those are two separate projects, so --
Grady: I agree. I was just trying to fulfill my commitment to try to work with him. That
seemed to be the way he wanted to proceed forward and I recommended against it, but
I said I agreed to work if that's -- if that's what he wanted to do.
De Weerd: Council?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Zaremba: I have made it well known that things make me nervous when they are
somewhere around our potential Ten Mile interchange and -- and that's why I get
excited about things. But just in general, wouldn't reimbursement agreements just be a
boilerplate, every one of them pretty much the same, the only change would be it's
going to be over here or so deep or -- I'm not understanding -- do we need to start from
scratch on every reimbursement agreement?
Grady: Well, in fact, on this agreement we did have it signed atone time and (believe -
- (believe Mr. Jewett's not -- he had one signed and, then, we made some slight
changes and we have deviated and, like I say, the last -- the last I heard was he also
wanted to negotiate Bitter Creek at the same time as this one and put them both
together. But to answer your question, we used to have a very complicated way of
paying these agreements back and it was spread over up to ten years. We have really
clipped that down to just -- in this particular case a few payments -- three payments over
two years. So, we have really really tightened on, you know, getting that money back to
the contractors quicker -- contractors and developers. And I think what Mr. Jewett
wants is a hundred percent up front and we just -- we just don't typically do that on a
case like this. So, I'm -- I think the reluctance on my part is that I don't want to create a
precedent that -- that we do it here -- I mean we have already gone from ten years down
to two years repayment for this and I guess I'm reluctant to go cash on the barrel head
when they are complete. So, I think that's where we are at. Does that make sense?
De Weerd: And, Councilman Zaremba, I also reiterated, you know, that that has been
our typical practice and certainly we have escalated the pay back. Mr. Jewett is here,
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August 28, 2007
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so if you and Mr. Jewett would like to go in the back, I can certainly delay this to the
end of the agenda and we will just ask you what you're going to do. Okay?
Borton: Second.
Rountree: No gloves necessary.
De Weerd: I guess we will also set D-2 and 3 to right before our Executive Session.
So, Mr. Jewett, if you would like to talk with staff for a few minutes and see what you
can do, we will just get back to this item. Thanks.
Grady: I will excuse myself.
E. Fire Department
1. Memorandum of Understanding for Wildland
Firefighting:
De Weerd: Item 6-E is our fire department and we have the chief here to address that.
Anderson: Madam Mayor and Council, as you are most likely aware, Idaho is pretty
much under besiege by fire right now, wildland fire, with several major fire complexes
burning in Idaho. When that happens in Idaho, typically when the fire is burning in
areas that there are no structures and there are no inhabitants, it's not a big deal, they'll
a lot of times !et the fire bum itself out to reach its natural boundaries or they'll decide to
attack that fire and that's done through aerial attacks and smoke jumpers and digging
fire line and dozers and all that kind of stuff. But when those wild fires move closer to
cities, like in Yellow Pine and Warren and Sesatch and the most latest one that you're
hearing about is up by Ketchum and Sun Valley area, then, what happens is through the
Idaho Department of Lands they work to hire and contract with municipal fire
departments for what they call structural protection and there is quite a bit of difference
in the training and the equipment that our personnel have versus what a wildland
firefighting has. We have bunker gear that's thick and bulky and allows us to go in very
heated atmospheres. We wear air packs. Our fire trucks deliver much larger volumes
of water than what a typical wildland fire truck does. So, whenever the fire gets close to
structures they start calling around and looking for structural protection and they have
been doing that and so far I have been very reluctant to send a fire engine from
Meridian and the reason I have been reluctant is because the reimbursement
mechanism from the federal government on these wildland fires does not match what
we currently have in our labor agreement. Our labor agreement says if we send them
we would pay them for overtime from the time they leave here until the time they get
back. The Forest Service only allows reimbursement for 12 hour shifts and so what you
have before you tonight is an MOU that, basically, we would sign in effect with our labor
union that would allow how them or would provide for whatever reimbursement we
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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receive from the federal government on those wildland fires is what they would be
willing to work for. So, if we get 12 hours of reimbursement, they would get their current
salaries, but it would only be for the 24 hour work periods. The other part of that is the
federal government does not pay for fill back personnel. If we send personnel and they
are gone on a forest fire and unable to work their next shift, then, that leaves me in a
position of having to bring somebody in and pay them time and a half and -- to fill that
24 hour shift. So, the net effect is the City of Meridian could be paying two 24 hour a
day overtime slots and only get reimbursed for one. So, under this agreement under
this MOU, what I'm trying to do is attempt to get our labor union to agree to work for the
reimbursement that is available from the federal government and, then, also they would
be willing to wait for their reimbursement until the city got reimbursed, because many
times it may be several months after that fire is put out before you actually get the
reimbursement from the federal government on that. So, this would allow us to assist
some of the smaller communities by providing structural protection and, again, that's
only if we have got reserve apparatus and personnel available and it would also allow
some of our personnel to go out and earn some overtime, but they would have to be
willing to work for what the federal government reimburses us. And the premise is is
that Idon't -- I don't want us -- if we go to provide structural protection on a wildland-
urban interface fire, is I don't want the citizens of Meridian to end up footing that bill. It
should be they pay their own way and we are reimbursed for that. So, that's the
premise behind this MOU and I'm asking for your permission tonight to allow the Mayor
to sign this. The union will be taking this issue up at their meeting next Wednesday and
they will decide whether their organization wants to sign this or not. So, this is -- this
approval would be subject to their signing of this -- this agreement also. If they -- if they
don't sign it next week, then, it's mute and we'd just let it drop.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. -Bird.
Bird: I have no problem passing on it and I think it's a good deal, but I -- if I was to
make the motion 1 would certainly -- the Mayor will not sign, nor the Clerk attest until the
union have signed. We do this with all development agreements and everything and I
don't know that we would change it. I do -- I do agree with the MOU, I just feel that they
need to sign it first and, then, we can sign it.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Bird. Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, the same comment about the MOU. But it -- the third
whereas I don't know what the status is of the agreement that we might have with these
other entities as it relates to our equipment and to me there is a cost to the city
taxpayers for that equipment in terms of mileage and repairs and God forbid something
happens to our firefighters and we lose not only firefighters, but equipment. Do we have
in place or does our current agreement to do this have in place that we have
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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compensation not only for the loss of equipment, but for the potential loss of life, similar
to a situation that happened not too far south of here not too many years ago.
Anderson: Yes, Councilman Rountree. That's a good question. The agreement that
we have signed and we currently have signed that, we have signed it every year for the
last several years. I know the Mayor's signed it before and I'm not sure which -- all of
the rest of the Council have signed it, but it includes a rental agreement for the fire
trunks, so there is a -- a set fee for that type of apparatus and we will receive a daily fee,
plus we receive mileage to and from the fire. They pay all the expenses when you're on
the fire, any damage to your fire truck, if you have cut a tire or damage it, that's paid for
by them. So, those things are addressed in that contract.
Rountree: Thanks for reminding me of that, Ron. I didn't remember that, but I'm glad
we do that.
Anderson: Yeah. We do that.
De Weerd: Anything further?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I absolutely agree with asking the union if they will accept being paid what
we get paid and not more. Let me test my understanding, though, of the other piece of
it, that -- are we asking that the individual firefighters, by agreeing to go out of town, are
delaying their own pay for possibly months or are we saying they would -- if they
showed up for their shift in town they would be paid a certain amount. Are we still
saying we are going to pay that, it's just the overtime that we are not going to put in until
we get reimbursed or might somebody miss their paycheck for a couple of months?
Anderson: No, they would not miss their paycheck. Under this agreement what we
would do is we would rotate those crews out under the -- I think it's the second --
second bullet point there. We are saying that they will be cycled throughout the
duration. So, we would take firefighters that are on their four days off and we would
send them to the fire, they would work for three days, we would bring them come back,
they would come back for their next shift, we would send the next crew that's going on
their three days, they would get all their normal shifts, they would not be shorted their
normal paycheck, this would just be the overtime pay related to that wildland fire.
Zaremba: Thank you. That works.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
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August 28, 2007
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De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: If we don't have any further discussion, I would move that we approve this MOU
for wildland fighting with Local 2311 and for the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest
after the signature of the union officers.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second approving the memorandum -- the MOU in
front of you with the statement as noted by Councilman Bird. Any further discussion?
Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
F. Legal Department
1. Patio Lease for Generations Plaza:
De Weerd: Thank you. Item 6-F to Mr. Nary.
Nary: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. This is a pretty simple item.
I was looking for your direction. I had a meeting today with the Meridian Development
Corporation administrator and he had been in discussions with the building owner that's
the -- owns the building that's adjacent to Generations Plaza, they used to house the 43
Degrees restaurant. They are looking at a new tenant and one of the -- one of the
considerations for that rental space or lease space for that restaurant is the patio. The
patio is on the city's park, there is a current lease agreement with Mr. Benoit, the owner
of the building. It needs to be updated. There were some -- there was lease payments
that were negotiated that expired in 2005. They did continue on at the current rate. We
just need to finalize that lease arrangement, so I needed your approval to enter into that
negotiation and bring that back to you. He did indicate to me that they would probably
be asking for some other things in the future, but would be bringing that both to the
planning department and to you before any changes to the actual agreement. The
tenant was going to be seeking potentially enclosing the patio for a portion of the year
during the winter months, so that it still could be usable, because under the prior tenants
they didn't use it at all during the wintertime. They are also looking at potentially
expanding the patio the remaining length of the building. There is -- I didn't go look
today, but I guess there is a door that opens into the grass that's, essentially, north of
the current patio. So, they would like to extend the patio out a little further and make it a
little more usable space. Obviously, they would need your permission for that. They did
ask that in this negotiation there is a current provision in the lease that prohibits the use
of live music out on the patio, even though it's probably been done off and on with the
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
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prior tenants and so we did want to negotiate a reasonable language in there about the
use of that -- that space for live music. But all I needed tonight was your approval or
direction to go ahead and enter into that negotiation, so that we could bring that back to
you, hopefully, within the next couple of weeks. The tenant was really excited to move
forward, hopefully within a month to a month and a half of being able to open. So, I
think that's it, unless you have any questions.
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Bird: Go for it.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor? It sounds like a good idea, but somewhere in there I would
be curious to find out whether the police department has been happy with how it's been
in the past and are they on board with continuing.
Nary: It looks like Lieutenant Stowe already has --
De Weerd: Lieutenant.
Zaremba: I would not necessarily put you on the spot this minute, but Ijust -- that would
be input --
De Weerd: Sure we would.
Zaremba: Sure. Go ahead.
Stowe: Thank you, Councilman Zaremba. Madam Mayor. We have had no incidents
of -- or reports of problems with that particular piece of property or that patio in general.
As it stands right now, I wouldn't like to make a definitive statement, because I have not
reviewed it and I don't know that it has been reviewed. I could probably be safe in
saying that right off the top of my head I don't think we would have any objections, but
we'd want to take a closer look.
Zaremba: Thank you. And maybe one more piece of input might be the parks
department. If this is actually a part of one of our parks, do we clean it up or who cleans
it?
De Weerd: They do.
Rountree: Part of the lease agreement.
De Weerd: It's part of the lease agreement.
Zaremba: As long as that's in there.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 40 of 49
Bird: They are very goodly lessees.
De Weerd: So, what kind of action do you need tonight?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I mean I guess I'm hearing consensus.
So, I think all we were asking was that with your consent to go forward and negotiate
some terms. I will involve Mr. Siddoway with the parks department and Lieutenant
Stowe. There is no alley there, Lieutenant Stowe, so I figure you probably wouldn't be
as concerned with it. But we will make sure they have some opportunity to have some
input as to how the terms of the {ease are before we bring it back to you. Like I said, I'm
hoping we could have something resolved within a couple of weeks.
De Weerd: And it's visible from a lot of different angles, so --
Bird: 1 like the idea of enclosing it for winter.
Item 7: Items Moved from Consent Agenda:
De Weerd: There were no items moved from the Consent Agenda.
Item 8: Public Hearing: AP 07-006 Request for an Appeal to City Council of the
Planning Director's decision to deny the Certificate of Zoning Compliance
request based on UDC Table 11-2B-3, which requires a rear building
setback in the L-O zone of 20 feet; the Applicant believes a 10-foot rear
building setback was previously approved for this site for Moonlight
Industries by Moonlight Industries - 5212 North Stokesberry Subdivision
No. 2:
Item 9: Public Hearing: AP 07-007 Request for an Appeal of the Planning
Director's decision to deny the Certification of Zoning Compliance request
for Lot 10, Block 1 based on UDC Table 11-2B-3, which requires a rear
building setback in the L-O zone of 20 feet; the Applicant believes a 10-
foot rear building setback was previously approved for this site. Further
the applicant is requesting that Lots 11 & 13 also be allowed to develop
with a 10-foot rear building setback for Stokesberry Subdivision No. 2
Lots 10, 11 & 13, Block 1 by JUB Engineers -northwest corner of Eagle
Road and River Valley Street:
De Weerd: Item 8 has been requested to be withdrawn. We would need a formal
motion accepting that.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 41 of 49
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: I move we withdraw AP 07-006. And can I do nine at the same time?
Rountree: Yes.
De Weerd: Sure.
Bird: And AP 07-007.
Rountree: Second.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to accept the withdrawal request on Items 8
and 9. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 10: Ordinance No. 07-1334 AZ 06-061 Request for Annexation
and Zoning of 95.57 acres from RUT to R-8, R-15 and R-40 zones for
Baraya Subdivision by RMR Consulting, Inc - 3935 West Franklin Road
and 280 South Black Cat Road:
De Weerd: Item 10 is Ordinance No. 07-1334. Mr. Berg, will you, please, read this
ordinance by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance 07-1334, an
ordinance for annexation of a parcel of land being the northeast quarter of the northwest
quarter of the northeast quarter of Section 15, Township 3 North, Range 1 West, Boise
Meridian, Ada County, Idaho, and a portion of the west one half of the northwest one
quarter of said Section 15 as described in Attachment A and annexing certain lands and
territories situated in Ada County, Idaho, and adjacent and contiguous to the corporate
limits of the City of Meridian, as requested by the City of Meridian, establishing and
determining the land use zoning classification of said lands from RUT to R-8, R-15 and
R-40 in the Meridian City Code, providing that copies of this ordinance shall be filed with
the Ada County assessor, the Ada County recorder, and the Idaho State Tax
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 42 of 49
Commission, as required by law, and providing for a summary of the ordinance and
providing for a waiver of the reading of the rules and providing an effective date.
De Weerd: Thank you. You have heard the reading of this ordinance. Is there anyone
who would like to hear it read in its entirety? Seeing none --
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve Ordinance 07-1334 with suspension of rules.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: have a motion and a second to approve Item 10. If there is no discussion,
Mr. Berg, will you, please, call roll.
Roil-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 6: Department Reports:
1. Reimbursement Agreement for Portion of Sewer to the
West of Re-aligned Overland Road:
2. Discussion of Re-alignment of Overland Road and Ten
Mile Road and Sewer Availability:
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Nary.
Nary: I did speak with Mr. Grady and ask him if he wanted us to do the last item, Item
11, but he said that he thought they would be done shortly, so he didn't --didn't need us
to do it that way, if you wanted to take a short recess before that, he thought they would
be done in a couple of minutes, which was about a minute ago.
De Weerd: Well, we will give him five. I will reconvene at five to 9:00.
(Recess.)
De Weerd: Council, I will go ahead and reconvene this meeting and turn it back over to
Len to consider 6-D-2.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 43 of 49
Grady: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I think at this point in time Public
Works will relax its requirement for a staggered payment back on this project. I think we
will go ahead and recommend payment of his reimbursement portion right up front in
order to maintain this project and keep it on schedule, so that we can continue that. I
think it's obvious from Council's comments that we need to keep that on schedule. The
only thing I would say is that I think somehow this reimbursement that we did concede
this, that the Overland Road actually needs to get built and that somehow there is teeth,
because we are conceding that issue that normally we wouldn't. What I would be
reluctant to do is concede that issue and, then, it gets delayed for other issues and that
wouldn't be what I would be recommending. Does that make sense?
Bird: Uh-huh. Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: Maybe you know as much as -- or one of you guys do. Is the alignment, the new
alignment for Overland Road been absolutely decided, so that it can be done?
De Weerd: It was approved by Ada County Highway District last week.
Bird: It was approved.
De Weerd: And, you know, Council, again, you know, Len has tried to work it so the
priority of that project was reiterated in our consideration, but, you know, it's -- it's also
been somewhat awkward for staff feeling that if they didn't concede to certain practices
we haven't normally done -- I won't go so far as saying our road project and desire to
see this realignment is held hostage, but, you know, it has made it very difficult for staff
and this is not something that is comfortable negotiating at a Council meeting. So, it's
certainly -- this agreement and the unusual request and a change of terms, because of
the importance of this road project, is unusual and maybe that's what you make the
difference in, but certainly this is up to you. Len has conceded to making an exception
and certainly it's not an exception we want to make in the future.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: As at least one of those that has been pushing this area in general and this
project in particular, I absolutely agree that I don't intend to signal to Len or anyone else
that this should establish a precedent or that this should be used as an example for any
other location. I have often recently expressed the concern that the Ten Mile
interchange is not a done deal yet, there are state legislators and ITD people that would
like to see that money spent somewhere else or not spent at all and the thing that
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 44 of 49
scares me is -- is from Meridian and ACHD or anybody else involved to show any
hesitancy about getting everything done we can and if I applied unfair pressure I
apologize for that, it won't happen again, but I say again that this is not to establish a
precedent and since we just had our budget talks I don't know if this is relevant or not,
but how much money are we talking about accelerating?
Grady: I believe about 240,000 dollars.
Zaremba: That would be paid immediately instead of over two or three years?
Grady: That's correct.
Zaremba: Thank you.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I think this thing right here answers Councilman Zaremba's boilerplate. None of
these are boiler -- you can't boilerplate these agreements, they all got a little different
tune to each one of them, so it's something that we made -- we need to make sure and
we need to make sure that everybody knows this isn't -- we aren't setting a precedence
on doing this and I agree with what the Mayor said wholeheartedly, but we do -- by the
same token, we don't want -- we don't want to give any belief that we are dragging our
feet out there at Ten Mile, in my opinion.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: To take somewhat of a different tact -- and it's ultimately Council's decision and
I, for one, respect -- and maybe all of us do I'm sure, but my comments are directed to
Len's position on what has been our practice in payment over time and I'm comfortable
sticking with that, even on this one. And what would make me comfortable to change
my position towards a one time payment as incurred as opposed over time, is to get
some true assurances about the construction schedule of this and I would probably turn
it to the applicant to provide you, to provide to us a specific plan as to how you would
alleviate my concern that this thing will never get built. So, were I to receive those types
of assurances with specific details, I'd feel much more comfortable in advancing the
payment as an exception to the regular routine, but until I see something, I don't know if
I'm comfortable doing that.
Grady: I agree wholeheartedly. That certainly was my concern, too. I think the two
need to go hand in hand, so --
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 45 of 49
Borton: And Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: And that's probably the intent of the applicant anyway is to assure this thing
gets built in a timely fashion. And I'm not asking him to come forward and answer it
today, but that's something that I would look for to provide to you, you guys have the
discussion to let Council feel comfortable that this thing's -- if it's going to get paid on the
fast track, it's going to get built on the fast track.
Grady: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I certainly didn't get a -- an absolute
feeling that even -- even with -- sorry, that this would still move on an accelerated
schedule as far getting built and that's why I think if something gets delayed on this, the
building or the realignment of this project, that we have already conceded the payment
of the 240,000 dollars. You know, I think the two need to be contingent on each other,
so -- so, somehow we are going to need reassurance that it actually does get built
according to, you know, a fairly tight time frame and, then, I'm like you, I agree that it
possibly makes sense to go ahead and accelerate the payment.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Zaremba: I agree that what Councilman Borton and Len are suggesting is a fair trade
for making an exception to the policy and that is the reason for making the exception to
the policy. I have no problem with insisting that there be evidence that it's going to get
finished on a specific time frame. I think that's a logical part of -- of the trade.
Jewett: Madam Mayor, Council, Jim Jewett, 1560 Carol Street, for the record.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Jewett: I think since -- since this whole concept of Overland realignment coming out of
the charrette, I have been 139 percent supportive of it and I think that my commitments
to ACRD and the city has always evidenced that. The process that's going through now
is ACHD approved it last Wednesday as the realignment, now we will enter into the --
basically the impact fee agreement with them, which allows us to go forward with
construction. It was our -- it's our intention and our hope that we have at least a bridge
and all the crossings across the Ridenbaugh during this winter, because that's the only
time we can work on those canals. Sewer and water is the first part of that and,
obviously, I don't want to see you spend your money, nor my own building a sewer and
water line that serves only one purpose and that is to realign that road. That's what it's
being built for. So, the assurances and the assurance to the Council will be that
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 46 of 49
document with ACHD. So, I would ask your help and encouragement at ACHD in
hurrying that along, because they don't seem to always want to work as fast as I do.
De Weerd: Or us either.
Jewett: But it's still our intention to push through the bridge. We have an engineer
that's working on the bridge design with our contractor, the sewer and -- the sewer is
done. The water is near done to come to the city for that to go through that canal.
Actually, water goes out of the canal this weekend and we are hoping to get canal
company approval next week at their board meeting to go ahead and fill the canal in
and start leveling the ground necessary. I have no objections to this agreement being
tied to the ACHD agreement, because that's going to the catalyst that's going to allow
this to happen. You know, Council needs to understand that we are proposing to build
the sewer and water before it's needed, but that's the only -- it's just the logical course of
action to get this thing going and keep on step, to try have construction of the actual
road by this time next year.
De Weerd: So, Bill, can the contract be firmed up and those details implemented, bring
it back next week for Council to authorize?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I guess I'm not a hundred percent
certain we could have it by next week if we are trying to tie it to an agreement that hasn't
been done yet. I mean we probably want that agreement and Iguess I -- we will call
ACHD and talk to their legal staff, work with Mr. Grady, who is working with Mr. Jewett
and we will work with Mr. Jewett's counsel and -- I mean I still think we can get this
agreement done within the next couple weeks, but if we don't have anything from ACHD
to tie it to, we don't really have a way to hook those two together yet, but we will
certainly do it as quickly as we can and certainly we will speak with ACHD's counsel and
I think it's in their interest to do it as reasonably quickly as they can as well. So, this is --
the window is short to get these done, so I think everybody has the same incentive.
De Weerd: At least draft the language that everyone feels comfortable with --
Nary: Yes.
De Weerd: -- and when you have that agreement it can be entered in as an attachment.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: Let me ask another question. That agreement with Nampa-Meridian should also
be tied in with this contract with us. Are you sure you have got that from Nampa-
Meridian? Is it a guaranteed --
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 47 of 49
Jewett: Well, we had the agreement for fast spring, but, then, they decided that there
wasn't sufficient time to get through since the water came in and they simply said do it in
the fal{.
Bird: Okay.
Jewett: So, they are waiting for some documents for us to be able to prepare the final
document for signature.
Bird: But you have to go back before their board.
Jewett: Board.
Bird: Okay.
Jewett: We have to do some lining of the ditch as well. And I think what they are
looking for -- they are looking for the city support of that, so to make sure that the city is
on board with everything we are doing, because that license agreement, the cross
agreement does get assigned to the city upon completion of the sewer and water.
Bird: I was going to say -- because it is our -- it is our sewer line and water line that's
going under there, so we need to be involved with that, too.
Jewett: And Mayor and Council, I'd like to also -- you know, it's not comfortable to be in
a disagreement with any staff member and a lot of this is predicated based on what the
market conditions are doing to us from when we initially got approval from our bank to
do this project in the spring, they requested that we appraise the property in July and
provide them final budgeting. Well, the reappraised value, it dropped about 13 million
dollars. So, that resulted in about a million dollars less in funding and we had to cut
some things. We could have budgeted a two year program at that point and I told staff
that with the banks I'm still at their mercy, because they are the ones that fund us and I
know none of us control what happens in the market, I wish I could, but I can't and we
just continue to strive to do the best we can with the conditions we have and I
appreciate the effort of staff to try to work this out. I do understand their concern of not
wanting to set a precedent, but I think there is also a very positive precedent being set
here, so --
De Weerd: Well, if you can work together to get the language where everyone feels
comfortable and bring that back --
Nary: We can do that.
De Weerd: -- we will get it on the agenda.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 48 of 49
Jewett: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Item 11: Executive Session per Idaho State Code 67-2345(1)(b) - (to consider
the evaluation, dismissal or disciplining of, or to hear complaints or
charges brought against, a public officer, employee, staff member or
individual agent, or public school student) & (f) - (to consider and advise
its legal representatives in pending litigation):
De Weerd: Council, Item 11 is an Executive Session. Do I have a motion?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we go into Executive Session as per Idaho State Code 67-2345(1)(b) and
(1)(f).
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a mation and a second to adjourn into Executive Session. Mr. Berg,
will you, please, call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
EXECUTIVE SESSION:
De Weerd: I would entertain a motion to come out of Executive Session.
Bird: So moved.
Borton: Second.
De Weerd: A!I those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Do I have a motion to adjourn?
Bird: So moved.
Meridian City Council
August 28, 2007
Page 49 of 49
Borton: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:50 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED: \~~~~ti~~iRtr~~ii~i
~~~ ~i
MAYOR Y de WEERQ = DATE APPROVED
~ _- _
~': 9 ~~~TTES
Q T is ,~~ 1F~'ILLIAM G. BERG JR., I CLERK
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