HomeMy WebLinkAbout9-8-98 P&Z MinutesMERIDIAN PLANNINC~JD ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
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of Fact and Conclusions of Law as amended or similar conditions as found
justified and appropriate by City Council and that the property be required to
meet the water and sewer requirements, the fire and life safety codes, uniform
fire code, parking requirements, and the paving and landscaping requirements
and all ordinances of the City of Meridian. The conditional use shall be subject to
review upon notice to the applicant by the city.
MacCoy: All in favor.
Borup: Second.
MacCoy: Second, excuse me, you've got to pick up the second, yes. All in
favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
ITEM NO. 9: CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL
USE PERMIT FOR A REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER BY DAKOTA
COMPANY, INC. -SOUTHEAST CORNER OF EAGLE & FAIRVIEW:
MacCoy: Before we enter into the public hearing, I'd like to make a comment.
We the commissioners are very much in approval of all the letters we've received
from you people. That's one thing we've been asking for the last couple of times.
We'd like to hear from you. You stand up hear and give your comments, it's on
tape which is very good and also a number of you have submitted letters. One
thing I would like to comment about the letter is they are well written. They are
not some of the stuff we see in the past years with all kinds of little pieces that
don't really add up to anything. They are really well thought out. I want to
commend you from the standpoint too that we are very much impressed with
some of the suggestions you've made. We're going to consider those because
they haven't been brought up before. I just want to put that on the record this
evening. It's a great job, keep it up, that's good. Since we are open again as a
public hearing, is there anyone here that would like to standup next. Okay, the
applicant would like to stand up next.
LARRY DURKIN, WAS SWORN IN BY THE ATTORNEY.
Durkin: Mr. Chairman I would like to hold my comments tonight in the interest of
time and in the interest of repeating myself until after the public comment. Prior
to that, I would like to answer any questions that you may have developed,
otherwise, I will make my statements after the public comment tonight.
MacCoy: Any commissioners have any questions you want to ask the applicant
at this moment?
Borup: No, I just appreciate his statement. Thank you.
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 27
De Weerd: I do, but I'll wait till after public testimony.
MacCoy: Commissioner Nelson, do you have anything? Okay, we are open to
the floor now, the public has the podium.
LORELL ROGERS, WAS SWORN IN BY THE ATTORNEY.
Rogers: Good evening Chairman MacCoy and commissioners. I've been asked
by Ramond Yorgenson, President of the homeowners association and number of
my fellow homeowners to be the homeowners representative in matter relating to
the family center. As you requested, we've tried to come together on a possible
barrier between the crossroad subdivision and the proposed development.
There may still be some of my neighbors that will disagree with me and will
speak contrary to what I say, but with the residents that were willing to help
gather data and to come together on this issue, we tried to submit ideas that
were both feasible and realistic. We as residents and especially the adjacent
property owners prefer the colored and textured brick wall with a berm. We
would also like to see trees on both side of the fence. We believe that this is the
best possible barrier and buffer for our situation. We have submitted to you a
few drawings and pictures showing landscaping walls and signs enforcing
delivery house from around the area. We have submitted an architects rendering
of the barrier that the majority of the unified residents prefer. We fully realize that
no buffer will completely eliminate all site, sound or other effects of a major
development, such as the Family Center. Our goal is simply to ensure that all
residents, especially the adjacent property owners can enjoy a reasonable
amount of quiet, privacy and freedom and freedom from other annoyances. One
of the biggest impacts the Family Center wilt have on many of us is noise
pollution. I personally did some research and study into buffers and read some
news articles on bamers and other types of developments, including but not
limited to stores, amphitheaters and freeways. From my research, I learned that
the most success was gained where there were a masonry wall between the
homes and other types of developments. That's not to say that everybody in all
these articles that I read, not everybody effected was pleased with the wall, but
the majority of people were satisfied with it. One article in particular which was a
study actually published by the Minnesota Pollution Agency stated specifically
that walls and berms are the most practical for cutting noise. It also noted that
quote shrubs and trees are worth little as tools for noise control. (Inaudible)
noise control, must be at least 50 feet tall, must be in a continuous strip, 75 to
100 ft deep, must have dense foliage down to the ground and must be evergreen
to supply protection year round. The barrier trees that is draw on the plan for the
conceptual plan for the Family Center is not that kind of a barrier. The deciduous
trees will drop their leaves in the winter and that means that we will have a good
portion of our year without any buffer, until the spring comes and the leaves are
developed on the trees. Another article which was published by the Kopply (sic)
News Service out of San Diego stated "the most effective method of reducing
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
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street sounds is to construct a concrete or brick wall which is at least six feet
high. Such a wall can deflect nearly 60% of street sounds. A wooden fence can
reduce noise only about 5%." Street sounds in this article was defined as steady
traffic late night parties and noisy children. To us, I thought this was significant
because we will be having trucks behind the shopping center, we will have
people cutting through. It's realistic to think that. It is possible that we will have
people that will be in the parking lot making noise at night, partying or whatever.
So we believe that this is a significant figure for us. We also ask that the
commission require that the barrier for the-between the Family Center and
Crossroad Subdivision be built before the construction begins. To help with
things such as the construction noise and the dust. We do ask that dust
abatement be addressed during this time and we would ask that the construction
take place between daylight hours between 8 A.M. and 6 P.M. or something
similar to that. Saying all this does not mean that the residents of the Crossroads
Subdivision are necessarily in favor of the Family Center, it simply means if the
commission votes to approve this development, that we would prefer a wall
between us and the shopping center. We as the residents of the Crossroads
Subdivision thank you for your time. At this time to help me answer you
questions, if it's not objectionable, I would like to ask that Alan Durrant come up
and help me answer some of the questions you may have. If he could be sworn
in.
Rossman: That's fine.
Rogers: Do you have questions for us?
De Weerd: I would.
Rogers: Okay, can we have Alan be sworn in first.
Rossman: Alan can you step forward please.
ALAN DURRANT. WAS SWORN IN BY THE ATTORNEY.
De Weerd: I guess my initial question is, of the home owners that you have
talked to and shown your plans, how many live along the perimeter that will have
the masonry wall in their backyard?
Durrant: Probably more than half, because those are the most active people in
our meetings. We've been having a meeting every week to get as much input
from residents as we can and we've got the same core that shows up every week
and it's mostly probably people who live along the barrier.
De Weerd: Okay, and which of the plans are you proposing at this point?
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
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Durrant: The one that we had drawn up by the architect is this one. I don't know
if you all have a copy of it, we had it shrunk down a little bit.
MacCoy: That's right we have it.
Durrant: Do you have any questions specific to the plan?
De Weerd: I guess my concern would be between the shopping center and the
15 foot berm, the other side that would be hidden between the wooden fence and
the masonry wall. Who is going to light that, who is going to patrol it? It is a
security issue. Who will maintain it?
Durrant: Right, there was also a list of basic points given out with this, lets see.
For the lighting it said-down here on the point that starts with eight foot high
berm with eight foot high CMU block wall on top, the first page about half way
down. It says the block wall to be constructed from eight inch spit face
(Inaudible) colored block with stone cap. Provide common brick pillars 20 feet off
center with cast stone cap as well. Then it says, provide no intrusive security
lighting on the subdivision side. Fixtures to be approved by the Crossroads
Homeowners Association. At that point, we kind of left that part open. We had a
couple of ideas to mount the lighting light on the wall, but then some of the
residents didn't want it shining in their backyards. So we were thinking of some
kind of ground lighting affect down by the concrete walkway.
De Weerd: I did talk to the police department about this, when I saw the
rendering and in their opinion, it seemed like it would open up a whole new area
of illegal activity. It's very invisible from the shopping center side. You'll have a
six foot wooden fence on the homeowners side. Who knows what's going to go
on between the area of those two walls.
Durrant: That's a good point. The only thing we've done to address that, we
talked about it a little bit, everybody has back windows on their house and if you
see something shady going on, you can also notify people. It also depends on
how well it's lit.
De Weerd: The hand drawing is the second option?
Durrant: There were several hand drawings. Everybody gave us a hand drawing
at our meetings, we submitted them all so that you would have a variety of thing
s to review for your own pleasure.
Rogers: We tried to submit more than one option for you to consider.
De Weerd: On the hand drawn ones, this one, what is the feeling of the
homeowners on this option.
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Durrant: Which one?
De Weerd: The one with the 20 foot berm. Oh, is that a 11 foot wall? Eleven
foot wall with a five foot berm.
Rogers: Truthfully, most people would prefer this first one, but the second one is
the second option. You know, they would accept that, it wouldn't be their first
choice, but they would accept it.
Durrant: They would rather have the first one, because the second option looks,
like Mr. Durkin said earlier, looks like a prison wall.
Rogers: That one can still be a sculptured wall, it doesn't have to be gray, it
doesn't have to be concrete, it can be made out of nice brick, it could, you know.
MacCoy: Commissioner Borup, do you have any questions.
Borup: Your definition of a sculptured wall, or you talking a split face CMU or?
Rogers: The residents were concerned about just gray concrete. We wanted,
you know, they were thinking of colored bricks with texture to them that didn't
look-because a lot of the walls we've seen have been a cinder block type of
thing and they wanted to get to a colored...
(END OF TAPE)
Borup: They painted it gray.
Durrant: It was an (Inaudible) color.
Rogers: But there is colored brick out there is what we're saying. It would just-
the residents would, if it was a colored brick, it would be easier, they would like
the look of it better, is what I'm saying. Some of them were concerned about the
look of a cement gray one.
Durrant: Another point for having color back there, the brighter they make it, the
easier to patrol it for any kind of suspicious activity. The darker it's going to be
back there, the worse it could be. If you had a solid gray brick wall, you couldn't
see a shadow very well.
Borup: So rather than having something inconspicuous, you want it to...
Rogers: We don't want florescent yellow, that's not what we are getting at, but
you knov~-it's hard to make a statement for what all the homeowners would
want, but like for instance, we've seen rose colored brick, or shades of brown.
Those types of things...
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Borup: It would need to be something that is readily available. In your studies
on the wail height, you mentioned the six foot wall would block 60
of the sound.
Rogers: Street sounds.
Borup: The definition of street sounds you said was people talking, and...
Rogers: Cars, dogs, things like that. We foresee as residents people getting out
of the movie and hanging out in the parking lot and making noise, it is
foreseeable.
Borup: Okay, and that could apply to the movie, except for the plan all has the
buildings along that side so the cars are going to be blocked by the building
already.
Rogers: People always cut behind malls, we've done it, we've seen other people
do it. You know, we've seen people cut behind Waremart. There is going to be
noises. There is going to be delivery trucks back there with beepers on them.
Borup: That's probably the biggest thing, but my question was if a six foot wall
does 60%, how much does an 11 foot wall block?
Rogers: I don't have that answer for you.
Durrant: It would kind of depend on how close the noise source was to the wall
itself as to how effective it was.
Borup: Well, I don't know on this, but on most things, there is a diminishing rate
of return. I think that's true on anything. You reach a point where what you gain,
you don't gain, but what your adding (Inaudible) and I'm wondering where that
point may be.
Durrant: One of the points of having an eight foot wall that we've all discussed
was basically, I'm 6'7" I can see across a six foot fence real easy. To just keep
the visibility down from the other side from the shopping mall, incase someone
wanted to sit on top of the wall or something, make it more inaccessible.
Borup: Nothing more at this time.
MacCoy: Commissioner Nelson?
Nelson: I understand their concerns, I would just comment, if my yard was back
there, I wouldn't want to live in the shadow of such a big system, whatever that's
going to be. I understand your concerns with the mall though.
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MacCoy: Anything else?
Nelson: No.
MacCoy: Are you familiar with a split face block?
Durrant: That's what they're calling for.
MacCoy: That can be had in colors or rose color, I've seen several different
types, hues of color and you can get those. They are acceptable, they do away
with that concrete block prison look which nobody wants to have next to their
house. I have lived in the same position in the past years and different places
and the exact same place behind my house, part of my backyard was something
very similar. So we I think most of us have a good feel for that already, so we--I
am personally and most of us will feel that way, not all of us that you are
spending time where you should be spending time and try to figure out a good
solution to the buffer zone. I think that's where you can really make a dent in this
for your future life.
Durrant: I have one other point, you also asked about the maintenance and
what we were proposing on the maintenance is the tree and ground cover can
cover the majority of the (Inaudible) behind the fence and just a little bit of grass
along the other side of the fence or the walkway so the mowing to be a couple of
trips through there real quick, instead of having to mow around the berms and
around the trees and such, just make it a complete ground cover of some type,
Shrubs and trees combination.
MacCoy: I think you're right.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, i have another question for, at least while they are up
here. I assume you are familiar with Patrick Harper's proposal, did that come up
in your homeowners meetings.
Rogers: Patrick Harper? Yes.
Borup: Any comment on that proposal?
Rogers: I believe that Patrick is going to address that.
Borup: I meant as a homeowners association, no comment then?
Durrant: You're talking about moving the different portions of the buildings
around the traffic flow.
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Rogers: Most people support it. It's difficult with 200 plus homeowners to come
into an agreement. A !ot of people did think it was a good idea though.
Especially the well, the ones that unified, let me say that, the ones that have
been coming to the meetings.
MacCoy: Any more questions for these two? If not, thank you.
Rogers: Thank you.
Durrant: Thank you. I just got a couple of little points about the ACHD, actually is
there someone from the ACHD here tonight?
MacCoy: Yes there is.
Durrant: I would like to hear what he has to say real quick before I bring up
anything. Maybe he'll contradict what I was thinking.
MacCoy: We'll call you back up then. Before that takes place, lets ask for
anybody else on the floor here.
ROBERT COURVAL, 3653 E. PRESIDENTIAL, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN
IN BY ATTORNEY.
Courval: Other than new matters, the only thing I have to say is that I wish this
were going to be a park or remain farm land, but the reality is, it's not. The area
is zoned commercial, I would. rather have a mall that is a Comprehensive Plan
development, rather than a bunch of piece meat difFerent types of buildings, give
it a junked up appearance. The ACRD is going to address our traffic concerns
hopefully the signs were brought up once before, I would prefer low monument
signs something that is not real high, 40 feet in the air. If some kind of masonry
fence is put in, I would have a (Inaudible) that it have some kind ofanti-graffiti on
it, to prevent having it marked up. One concern that is frequently brought up is
our properly values. I think it will effect our property values to some extent, my
contention is that the way we maintain our property individually in the subdivision
has a bigger impact on property values. I think we need to keep after capital
development and our neighbors with as much zeal as we have kept after Mr.
Durkin and the Planning and Zoning Commission. Do you have any questions?
Rossman: Sir, before we go much further, a foundationary issue, can you
provide your address please.
Courvel: 3653 E. Presidential.
Rossman: Thank you, go ahead.
MacCoy: Commissioners?
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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De Weerd: I have no questions.
Courvel: Thank you for your time.
MacCoy: I will address a little later, his statement of real estate. Any body else
here?
SHERRY JAYNES, 3510 E. EISENHOWER, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN
BY THE ATTORNEY.
Jaynes: We've had much discussion and testimony over the zoning adoption
and the timing and the residents knowledge of the zoning, so I'm not going to
rehash all of that. All I'm going to say is that regardless of when the zoning was
put into place and who was aware of what zoning at what time, there are people
that live in the Crossroad Subdivision right now, and there is no shopping center
around it and that's just the fact of what we live with right now. There are people
and families that live there and I don't think that anybody here can suggest that
the homeowners are going to be unaffected by this shopping center. I don't think
anybody can suggest that we're just going to go on with things exactly the way
they are and totally unaffected. It does appear evident from previous testimony
that we've heard at these meetings, when the area zoning was developed
significant consideration was paid to the impact and the buffering of the impact to
the homeowners that any development around us would have. I think that was
pretty well addressed. In the past years when this was put together, they even
suggested covenants to protect the homeowners in previous testimony,
whatever. Mr. Durkin proposing his retail center with full knowledge that it
boarders a residential area, he knows we are already there, that's pretty obvious.
Since the issue of buffering the residential area was addressed when the original
planned unit development was created and Mr. Durkin making his application
knowing who his neighbors will be, I think that he should be willing to anything
possible and this commission to require him doing anything possible, realistically
and reasonably possibly to protect the homeowners, the existing homeowners
from the shopping center, because we are already there. In that light, I would
suggest that this commission require no truck parking behind those buildings, no
through truck traffic through our neighborhood, to affect our children and very,
very limited times especially as far as the grocery store because I think 4:30 in
the morning in somebody's backyard is pretty unreasonable. I think that this is a
special situation and if they normally deliver to every grocery store in the area at
4:30, just because this ones behind a neighborhood, they ought to have some
special delivery times. So those are some suggestions that should be put forth.
Any questions?
MacCoy: Any questions from the commissioners? Thank you.
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SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 35
PATRICK HARPER, 3644 E. JUDICIAL DRIVE, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN
IN BY THE ATTORNEY.
Harper: I have been working with the homeowners as well and traffic has been
one of the issues that I've been looking at primarily. I have reviewed a draft copy
of the ACRD report, I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with it. Mr. Sale
said he didn't have any specific testimony to give tonight, but I would hope he
would address any specific questions that you would have or that might be
brought up. One of our primary concerns after, behind (Inaudible) regarding
traffic, is the high traffic volume that is going to be created on Presidential Drive
and especially the intersection with Eagle Road. This is the primary entrance to
our subdivision. ACHD is currently predicting a level service E, I believe on that
entrance. That is only if it's many specific recommendations are followed
through with. It appears from reading it, the report that this finding is based on
the Ada Planning Association estimate of 4% growth rate annually on Eagle
Road, at which everyone would admit that it's been a great estimation of what's
actually been happening. Further, ACRD has contracted with Earth Tech
Engineering to do a third party review of the investigation, they have not yet
made that available to me, but that will be coming in time. I would like. to note a
couple of things that they do note in their reports. Let me just read these two
points. Number one, Earth Tech has a less optimistic view of the future traffic
volume on Eagle Road and were less comfortable with the APA forecast of 4%
annual growth and used increase traffic volumes to forecast higher future
volumes on Eagle Road. The result of this assumption is the roadway
intersections are completely overwhelmed with traffic from this project and the
background traffic volumes. Point number two, Earth Tech had a less optimistic
view of the sites customers traveling to the nearest signalized intersections.
They assumed that more drivers would wait for traffic near an un-signalized
intersections, the result of this assumption is that the un-signalized intersections
will be completely overwhelmed with traffic from this site. Again, that intersection
would include the Eagle Road entrance which is the primary gateway entrance
into our subdivision. As I would imagine that you know that ACHD has not
released that final copy of the report, so we are anxiously awaiting that but their
long term plan for this area and for the Eagle Road entrance in particular would
be as traffic and accidents continue to increase would be the loss of left tum out
of the subdivision and then the loss of left turn into the subdivision and eventually
the complete closure of the Eagle Road or those intersections as traffic gets
worse and worse. Again, this is our primary entrance by design to that
subdivision. The final concern would be about the long term viability of the
shopping center say 10-20 years from now as these entrances are lost. It seems
a fairly high density development, a full 40% more than 40% larger or higher
density than the last shopping center that had been proposed and tried to move
in there a few years back. It seems to. me as access is restricted from these
other entrances, you are going to lose additional parking to driveway space and
access is going to be real difficult to customers and the long term viability of
some of the stores is a concern to me because I don't think any of us wants
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 36
vacant buildings or things like that, so that's another concem. Finally ACHD
does have several specific recommendations to the City of Meridian and other
parties and I would just ask that you take a look at those and carefully consider
them before you would take further action on this motion. One final note, as
Commissioner Borup did mention, I had submitted a proposal or idea that I had
had regarding the rearrangement of some of the houses-or some of the business
in the proposed development, that might help to decrease the traffic problem. I
guess most of my comments up to this point have been speaking the concerns of
the group and like I've said we've been having weekly meetings. The proposal
that I did submit, I had distributed by hand to all the adjacent residents. To this
point, I'd only heard two people who had concerns and both of those gentlemen
are here tonight, it was primarily concerns about noise from the entertainment
center and again, hopefully that could be alleviated if this were-could be moved
further out into the parking area. I think I'll let that statement, or the letter speak
for it's self. If you did have any specific questions, I'd be glad to answer those at
this time.
MacCoy: The material you just read from, have you given it to the client? Have
you given it to the applicant?
Harper: I mailed a copy to Dakota, yes. I'm sorry. No, what i have in front of
me, I mailed him the letter that I submitted to the Planning and Zoning
Commission. I don't know if Mr. Durkin has the ACRD traffic report or 1 assume
that wouldn't be until it was made public.
MacCoy: No, we don't have that either. Commissioners? Thank you very much.
Anyone else?
KELLY BROWN, 3873 E. EISENHOWER, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Brown: There is one thing that I would like to bring up as far as the noise. I do
not live along the border. My house does not border the proposed shopping
center, but I do have a concern with Shopko, because I do know that the Shopko
I used to live by on Broadway Avenue is open 24 hours during the Christmas
season. As far as noise is concerned, the theater doesn't bother me as much as
Shopko being open 24 hours. Secondly, I would just like to remind the
commissioners that we are relying on this commission to help us. One thing I
wanted to bring up is that we have tried to talk to Mr. Durkin, in fact, immediately
following the last P & Z meeting quite a few of us tried to corner him per say, and
talk to him about some of our suggestions. As we tried to previously in the
meeting that was suggested by the commission where we met in this room. I feel
like most of the suggestions, in fact, almost every suggestion the homeowners
have made will quote "not fit into my plan" as Mr. Durkin has stated. 1 feel like he
has stated he will do whatever the commission forces him to do, but I don't feel
like he's been very open to the suggestions that the homeowners have made. All
MERIDIAN PLANNING ADD ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 37
I ask is that if you eventually approve this conditional use permit, you please
draw very specific restrictions to protect our subdivisions, that's all I ask. Thank
you. Do you have any questions?
MacCoy: Any questions? Thank you for.your comments. Anyone else?
TINA CLARK, 3610 E. FLORENCE DR., MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Clark: I just wanted to make a statement, my husband and I are opposed to the
wall. So, I just wanted to make a statement for the record that I don't know how
many property owners are going to be facing Fairview and Eagle that are for the
wall, I'm just up here to say that we're against it. That's all I have to say. I don't
want to be looking out my backyard at a cement wall, I'm worried about the
graffiti, I'm worried about gangs and stuff, you know.
Borup: At what location are you assuming that would be from your (Inaudible).
Clark: Well, I don't know. I thought they were talking about having it along
Fairview and Eagle.
Borup: We have several proposals here, one proposal has the wall 35, 45 feet
from your fence. Others have it right up against your fence.
Clark: I would want it as far back as-I mean if it had to go up, I would want it as
far back as, as far out as Fairview.
Borup: That seems to conflict with what you just said.
Clark: I don't want a wall at all.
Borup: Well, I mean about the graffiti, if the wall right against your fence the only
way to get the graffiti is from your yard.
Clark: Right.
Borup: It would be your kids doing it.
Clark: That's a scary thought. My biggest concern was looking out my backyard
into a cement wall, that's not what I want. I'd rather put some type of tree and
shrubbery that maybe doesn't loose leaves in the winter time and can just be out
there. Any questions? Thank you.
MacCoy: Anybody else?
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 38
KEN SANSOUCIE, 3526 E. FLORENCE, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Sansoucie: Just real briefly to address Commissioner De Weerd on the security
issue. (Inaudible) As an adjacent property owner, I was concerned about that as
well, I hope this doesn't sound too comical, but as an adjacent property owner, I
wouldn't be opposed to having the property between my existing property line
and the sound buffering fence deeded to me and let me maintain that and use it
for my personal use to compensate me for what I consider is going to be an
expected property devaluation. I just wanted to through that out as an option.
De Weerd: That's something new. Thanks
MacCoy: Thanks. Anyone else? Lets wait one moment and we'll bring you up
here. Anyone else?
ROBERT PHILLIPS, 3437 E. PRESIDENTIAL, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN
BY THE ATTORNEY.
Phillips: I'll limit my time, I'll be very quick. Last time, I think I talked way too
much. First of all, I just wanted to state that regards to some of the comments
made at the end of the hearing last time, it wasn't my intent to offend Mr. Durkin,
or question his integrity. My goal was to clarify the record and it wasn't to
threaten litigation, it was to say it's important to follow the rules we've set for
ourselves, in following the ordinances. I think it's important when you make your
decision to follow those rules. I only have a couple of things to add that have not
been previously said, one is that there hasn't been any ACHD findings at this
point at time, so it's going to be difficult to make a decision without those as a
factor in your decision making. Secondly, along presidential drive I think it would
be important that if we could not bust that up. It's a beautiful drive right now with
trees that are currently there and it's a nice drive into the subdivision, by not
busting that up, we could limit the traffic going into the mall areas. If that isn't
possible, I think the next best alternative is to narrow it, so it discourages people
from going into the subdivision. Those are the suggestions that I have. I also
drafted a letter and if you have any questions regarding that, I would be willing to
answer those at this time.
MacCoy: Any questions? Mr. Borup?
Borup: Yes Mr. Chairman, probably the aspect of your letter that maybe I was
specifically interested in was-hang on, let me go grab (Inaudible). You listed
four items, four reasons that you thought it was inconsistent with the zoning
development ordinances.
Phillips: That's correct.
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PAGE 39
Borup: But then it seemed to, I didn't see where it specifically addressed the
ordinance. (Inaudible) Personal opinion. Like the first item, you said it was too
intense, to me that seems more like personal opinion rather than anything
specific.
Phillips: That's a legitimate question. My intent, as you know that I'm a lawyer,
contrary to what was said earlier, 1 tried to be concise, it was three pages. I
didn't want to write a brief. This is not a judicial form, it was to address what I
thought my concerns were. I based everything on my reading, particular code
sections, for example the first one. I stated those concessions last time when I {^
spoke inconsistent to Comprehensive Plan and specific sections, also with the
definition of regional shopping center. I think that--especially they wanted
89,000 sq. ft. more than the minimum, made it too intense for that environment.
So that was the basis for that particular comment. Each one of my comments
was based on similar readings.
Borup: Did you feel this met the definition of a regional shopping center as in the
ordinance, that this proposal?
Phillips: I think the applicant requested a regional shopping center.
Borup: Well, that doesn't mean that's what it is just because they said it.
Phillips: That's true. I think he did meet the definition from the standpoint that it
had to be more than 750,000 sq. ft. and this is 848,000 sq. ft. from that
standpoint, I think that it was. Yes, from the acreage that was required, I think it
wasn't met.
Borup: I was looking at more than just the acreage. There are several other
definitions that (didn't feel that it met.
Phillips: Keep in mind that when you read the code there is two different
definitions, one is a zoning and one is a definition of a regional shopping center.
There is a zoning called the regional shopping center business area or
something like that. That's different then the actual definition of regional
shopping center.
Borup: That's what I was looking at the definition of a regions! shopping center.
Phillips: That was my basis.
Borup: I don't have that open right now, one of the (Inaudible) I know was two
anchor department stores.
Phillips: Yes, I think that's a definition of a regional shopping center.
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Borup: I'm not sure that this had even one department store.
Phillip: No, I don't think there is any department stores. I think the style of
business we do today and what a department store is, there is some gray areas
there.
Borup: I guess the other questions we've got in the previous minutes of
testimony.
MacCoy: Commissioner De Weerd? Thank you very much. Is there anyone
else that would like to make a statement? If not, then ACRD.
LARRY SALE, 318 E. 37T" STREET, BOISE, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Sale: Thank you, I'm here representing Ada County Highway District in the
matter before the commission. First of all, I'm up here for two things, to express
a couple of appreciation's, and secondly to make an announcement. The
Highway District appreciates the patience of the Planning and Zoning
Commission in putting up with us in our lengthy view of this application. We also
appreciate and understand the developers impatience with that same pace. He
obviously would like to move ahead and I do understand that. Unfortunately this
is the only opportunity that we will have to review it and I want to make sure that
when I present a report to you that it's factual and accurate. The second thing I
wanted to do is announce that our staff report will be available at noon on
September 16 and will be delivered to our commissioners at that time. They will
consider it at a meeting 7:00 P.M. September 23. Presumably at that time they
will render a decision and have a report to you by the end of that week. We have
completed the findings portion of our analysis and are attempting to write the
mitigation part of our report. As I say, that will be done a week from today
actually. Does the commission have any questions that they would like me to
answer tonight?
MacCoy: Commissioner Borup?
Borup: Not that are probably pertinent. We do have the draft copy that we
reviewed, are you anticipating any major changes from the draft copy?
Sales: I don't know which draft you have.
Borup: I don't either, it's not labeled.
Sales: Probably not, because I amended this one this afternoon. They take the
same shape and format, but as we develop additional information or findings, we
will change that report. So it really depends on whenever that was issued.
There are some changes to the early drafts in that part of our problem has been
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 41
that some of these improvements that are necessary to accommodate this
development are also improvements to the arterial system and the collector
system for which they are going to pay some fairly substantial road impact fees.
We've been trying to analyze which of those improvements are of sufficient
benefit to the general public that they should be offset from their impact fee.
That's been taking a great deal of our time and we are starting now to home in on
those, but there will be some major reconstruction needed to the system out
there to accommodate it and the background traffic as well. They are
improvements which we had planned for and would've been made by the district
someday, but this project accelerates the need for them somewhat. Anything
else?
Borup: No, it's the most comprehensive set that I've seen since I've been here.
Sale: It's a comprehensive application.
De Weerd: I just had a question, today we attended a walkability workshop and
there were several different options that were presented that might have some
effect on Presidential Drive on limiting traffic going into the subdivision or
discouraging it. I just had wondered if perhaps, taking a second look at
Presidential Drive and the concerns of the residents, if perhaps some of those
options might be appropriate in this regard?
Sale: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner De Weerd, two of my staff members
attended Mr. Burdens (sic) presentation this afternoon and I expect to discuss
those in the morning and the report will probably be altered again. I haven't
heard those, but we are trying to be susceptible, not the right word, but
something like that to the needs of the pedestrians that will be there. Perhaps
not today, but sometime in the future. We may look foolish now in requiring
pedestrian actuated signals at Fairview and Eagle, but probably someday they
will be needed. Hopefully they will be needed. Anything else?
MacCoy: Mr. Nelson?
Nelson: I have no questions.
MacCoy: thank you very much.
Sale: Thank you.
Durrant: On the submitted copy of this I put in, I had one real major concern that
I had was the traffic, the facts and findings report of it and the traffic counts they
used and the dates they are drawing their data off of. Such as on Eagle Road
and Fairview Road, they did their traffic counts on 10/97 when it was still partially
under construction through there and I was wondering if it would be a little bit
wise to get a current traffic count since they've completed that five lane opening.
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PAGE 42
Another portion of it was that there was no traffic count available on Records
Avenue or Drive, which I live right by there-and there is plenty of traffic cruising
down that street and the traffic count dates they used for Presidential Drive was
12/04/96 and talking to the development company, we're guessing somewhere
between 100-120 houses were there at that time and now there is close to 200. I
just wanted to make my concerns known that I think we need to get a current
traffic count. I don't know if Mr. Sale had addressed this at all with his group
(Inaudible) Ada County Highway District. I would like to see a more recent traffic
count taken for actual figures before they do projected basis.
MacCoy: Is that it?
Durrant: That's it.
Sale: I'm under the impression that we are taking new counts currently. They
may not have been done yet, but we can foretell the traffic on the streets coming
out of the subdivision quite accurately. Each of those trips will generate within a
tenth of a ten trips a day for each house over a period of a year. We can
estimate very accurately the number of-the amount of traffic that's there now by
counting the houses. The traffic on Eagle and Fairview is a little bit different. We
were going to recount that, but I don't know if we did or not.
MacCoy: Okay, thank you very much. It's still part of the open.
De Weerd: Mr. Chairman, can we take a break and then resume.
Durkin: I'm the applicant, I'm the president of Dakota Company. I have really
made every effort to listen carefully to the comments and the concerns address.
Before I start however, I would like to go on the record, at the last meeting, I was
ill and if I was short and tired at the end of the meeting, I apologize. I hit the bed
for two weeks the following morning, but, Mr. Phillips apologized for things
getting heated and it wasn't necessary. He's a fine man and I have no hard
feelings there. A couple of comments, it's been a little bit hard to really go with a
normal presentation of our project here, but something came up tonight that I just
wanted to clarify. We are what we call a second generation plan, I hope that all
the commissioners are all aware of that. We submitted a plan with our
application, we revised it in accordance with the meetings with the first public
hearing and with the neighbor meeting and in accordance with the first staff
report that the city staff put out. It also takes into consideration some of the Ada
County Highway Districts comments and concerns. That plan was submitted to
the commissioners prior to the last meeting. That's the plan that's up on the
board now. That was the one that I used that was the public hearing last time. If
you would like me to answer any questions relating to those plans as far as
building placement, etc. I would be happy to do so. ~ The major change on this
plan, which again, I want to remind you is the same plan that we had at the last
meeting. The major plan that we increase the size of the landscape berm along
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PAGE 43
Fairview and along Eagle from 10 feet to 20 feet. Also the plan has an increase
in the landscape berm along the back of the property from 10 feet to 20 feet.
There has been a couple of other landscaping additions. I think one of the more
significant additions is we've built up the landscaping in this area, more
substantially. This is the area that I have more concern over, this is the theater
area. We've eliminated the access to this area so people that might be at this
project and want to leave will be going out here, versus here. These, this access
point and this access point, at any place where it will be available will be signed
for deliveries and for truck traffic only. It's necessary to meet some of the other
conditions as far as fire trucks and routing and getting through. This does meet
with the city codes as far as access. So this is a change from last plan, I can't
recall to what detail that we went over these changes at the last public hearing.
Are there any questions from the commissioners on this plan before I go back to
my other...
MacCoy: Commissioners?
De Weerd: I guess I would like to wait and hear what he has to say.
Durkin: You know, the first public hearing that we had in my opening comments
I acknowledged to the commissioners and the public here, that this shopping.
center will have an impact on the adjacent property owners. We recognize that.
We recognized that before, we planned it, we recognized it during the planning
process of it. I think what's most important is we recognized that during the
operation of the shopping center. So, that's something that we recognize, that
we are fully aware of. We have a lot of experience in developing these types of
centers. Although the record shows this is quite a bit larger than any of the other
projects that I've developed. The concept and use of tenants is similar, so our
experience is solid and our record is good as far as the design of these types of
centers, but a long term operation is important. As far as the traffic through the
subdivision, I can't say anymore than I-on the record in the past, there is
obviously a threat and a question that the residents have, but that's an ACHD
concern. On my opening meeting, I asked for your approval of our plan. I asked
for one of the conditions that we abide by the conditions that Ada County
commissioners put on the project, I repeat that tonight. To my knowledge, we
have no dispute with ACHD as far as the shopping center and the matters that
relate to-that are iri the authority of Ada County Highway District, it's a large
project and we're working through. There is no issue between us that is a
stumbling point with ACHD. All of the matters that we are working through, in my
opinion, are technical. Mr. Sale has gotten up here time and time again, or
actually twice, but he's said it to me in other meetings. We are concerned about
the impact fees. We know what the impact fees. We know that there are going
to be impact fees. We know at the right date, we are going to argue about it.
That isn't going to be settled in a staff report at the next hearing, that isn't going
to be settled for a long, long, time. I pledge to you tonight, I ask you to make it a
condition of the approval if we get to that point, that we have to abide by the
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PAGE 44
terms and conditions of the Ada County Highway District that they impose on this
project. Again, I remind you that I feel there is nothing that has come to my
attention that is even a hint of impasse with ACHD. On the other hand, Mr. Sale
commented that we are getting a little impatient and we are. We first talked to
some of the people at ACHD in December of 1998 about this project. We had
our first staff meeting with them in April of 1998, we had another one in May. We
submitted our conditional use permit in June. We submitted the traffic study in
June. We had comments that were submitted back to us from ACHD which we
answered in July. We had another meeting in July. We had more comments,
we answered the immediately. We've had meeting in August and we continue to
have meetings, we have a, in my opinion, Mr. Sale we have a solid track record
with ACHD. We have not had any big disputes with ACHD and again, from our
earliest staff meeting with them in April to today, we are-we have in our position
four drafts (Inaudible) Ada County Highway District report on the project and not
one of these has anything in it that's insurmountable. Now there is a fifth draft
and their will probably be a sixth draft. This is a common normal process that we
go through on a shopping center, after shopping center, not only in Ada County,
but in other areas. The shopping center that we are building will be
(END OF TAPE)
Durkin: ...to the residential areas, in my opinion. There will be a benefit that the
shopping center will be screening 25,000 cars a day, night and day. Trucks and
every other type of vehicle on Fairview Avenue and 25,000 cars a day, today on
Eagle Road. A combined 50,000 cars a day, trucks, semi's 24 hours a day going
back and forth. A substantial amount of noise will be blocked with the
construction of the center. What is going to happen behind the shopping center.
I can tell you from my experience, I've developed more than 150 similar types of
shopping centers throughout the United States and several in Boise. I talked
today with Fred Meyer, as you may know, I was the developer of that project.
Fred Meyer, for their store on Fairview. During their busiest time of the year,
they would expect 11 semi-deliveries a week to that store. That store is 172,000
sq. ft. it's a food store, which is comparable in size to the food store that we're
planning on building here and it's a general merchandise discount department
store. That would be during their peak time, their busiest time they would expect
11 semi-deliveries a week. As I've said to you before, there are many, many
other smaller deliveries, the step van and what we call the vendor truck, delivery
system that come and go. Those are small business people from around the
area that deliver potatoes chips or whatever. They really are not a noisy vehicle.
They're lower profile, smaller, it's a faster delivery type of operation. Shopko
stores during their busiest time, I want to remind you that they are distributed for
this entire area from a large distribution facility that they own out on Gowen Road
and the Freeway. During one of their busiest times of year, they would expect
eight Shopko trucks a week. That would be during the Christmas season or back
to school. They would expect eight Shopko delivery trucks a week. Again they
would have the step vans and smaller deliveries. If you burdened all of the
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PAGE 45
grocery store with the Fred Meyer type of delivery, which is 11 trucks a week,
and all the Shopko trucks, eight trucks a week, there is not a tremendous amount
of traffic going back there. Those trucks, the hours are posted, the hours are
limited. There is no overnight parking allowed. It's signed and monitored. I can
only tell you from experience of operating and maintaining these shopping
centers, it is not a problem, it can be a problem, but it isn't a problem if you stay
on top of it and we do. Between blocking out the noise and traffic on Fairview
and Eagle and the limited amount of truck traffic that we would expect behind a
shopping center, it is not reasonable for us to build-take 60 feet of property and
build a wall out on top. I think the public comments tonight, the most important
comment was expressed by Patrick Harper. Where he talked about the long
term viability of the shopping center. We know how important that is, we're not
developing this, selling this off and going home. This is a long term ownership,
everything is leased and the ownership entity is very important to them and to us
that it be a long term viable project. If you were to have a 60 foot berm behind
the shopping center, that would require moving the buildings closer up to the
streets, it would interfere with the parking flow, the traffic flow, it would actually
rule out the site for quite a few of the major tenants that we have. The long term
viability of the center could not be assured. In fact, I think it would be an
experiment and an experiment that would fail. When you are finished at the end
of the day, there isn't a lot of things you can do with an 800,000 sq. ft. retail
shopping center if it's not done in accordance with standard design criteria and it
fails. Last meeting, I'm sorry that Mr. Smith isn't here, he asked us to go and go
back to the drawing board. That's what we've done. Commissioner Borup said
can't you try to do something for the area behind the grocery store. So we are
going to give you a handout tonight. It's something we think is workable. We
would be very open to having that in a motion tonight to require us to do
something like this. Tom Bauwens from our office is going to hand these out. It's
a two page document. The first page answers some questions that were brought
up last time. How high are these trees when we plant them? How high are they
going to be in a couple of years? This information, as all of our landscaping and
buffering information has been put together by the land group, a local area here, I
think it's an Eagle based company. The first page is what they are calling section
A, this would be-this is a typical berm section taken right here, if you notice the
black line on that plan, that's showing exactly where that is. It gives you a sense
of what the berm would look like on a larger scale than what we have on this
plan. You can expect that to go throughout the center. What I'm really excited
about is the second page. It's going to take a little more explanation, this is new
technology that prior to the other day I just was not familiar with. Again, this is a
drawing showing one section behind-it's an area from Presidential Drive that
we're proposing along in this section, I'm not-on the view 1, the viewpoint
location on the center of the top of that drawing you can see where that arrow is.
If you were to look out from here today, this is taken with digital photography
standing at that precise location, which is roughly in the loading dock area of the
plan, if you can see. That's what it looks like today, but with the construction
along this area of a three foot high concrete area at the back of the parking lot,
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PAGE 46
that gives us the opportunity to raise that berm up. So you can see what that
does to that typical planter section in the top right hand part of that sheet. Then
the bottom large photo is a-I can't remember the term that they use, but this is
prepared by the land group and this is what the photo would look like
approximately five to seven years after planting. The brown area that comes
across as brown area there would be the parking lot driveway in this section, that
you would be looking at. Then the gray stripe along there, these colors are a
little off, that would be the raised retaining wall, for lack of a better term, but a
small wall along the edge of this parking lot. Then you can see what the
landscape berm would look like and grow to in a five to seven year program.
This plan in-it will help decrease the noise from the grocery store. It will help to
decrease the visibility from the grocery store area and it looks nice. The
plantings look good, they will be maintained, that's part of our conditional use,
that they be maintained. They're very, very expensive to put in the first time, so
that is a real high incentive to take car of them, but we are suggesting that we do
this from Presidential Drive to the end of the first row of buildings. Primarily this
will add some additional buffering for the grocery loading dock because of the
early hours necessary for the vendor vehicles. The other-the first page just
gives you a sense of what the rest of the berm would look like, but it's a large
area. I'm sorry that I've given people the impression, particularly after the last
meeting, I was ill, I was feeling really poor. I've been completely available, and
today I received two letters from some of the residents, but that's the first piece of
mail that I've received, I haven't had any calls from anyone, and i've been
available. I've tried to incorporate the comments from these meetings that I think
are reasonable into our plan. I guess I really want to stress something again
tonight on the record. If you require a wall, as I said the first night, we will build it.
I implore on you to not do that. I've traveled around the United States, my job,
my hobby, everything I do is related to shopping centers. It's an undesirable
circumstance and I just can't tell you an example that it isn't. I've talked to
people that look there I've looked at many and many of them and I just feel that
when you put 20-25 foot masonry buildings and then you put another wall within
that 45-50-60 feet away from it. I know you are going to have echo. It's different
than cutting out freeway noise. It's different than cutting out highway noise, it's a
different kind of a sharp bang type of noise that you are trying to protect yourself
from. I guarantee you, I'm under oath here, 1 take that seriously. I strongly telling
you that I've seen this, I've seen many unhappy people that have that. So I
would-however, it isn't a financial issue for us, it's a long term use issue for us.
They deteriorate quickly, they get graffiti on them quickly, they make an awful
lot--the results in noise transfer, it's just very undesirable. I put that back on you,
if you require a wall, we'll build it, we don't have to talk about it a long time, I just
want to be on the record flue years from now when that's a problem. I don't
believe that It's reasonable to build a 60 foot berm. I don't think it's necessary, I
don't think it accomplishes the cost of doing it, the viability of the center could be
jeopardized. I would like to ask tonight that we get some kind of approval to
move on through the process. We were scheduled to go to an ACRD meeting
several weeks ago, it's been scheduled and put off, scheduled and put off, by
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PAGE 47
delaying this project tonight a month, results in an opening time of the shopping
center that could easily change from November of 1999 to November of the year
2000. That's a significant impact on us, we own the land, we own it free and
clear. We own all of the land, the project isn't going to go away, the planning is
still open for modifications and changes, but we can not precede with our
engineering our architectural drawings, our final landscape plans, our wall or
fence, I can't precede any further without some type of go ahead tonight. A delay
tonight a deferral tonight until ACHD gets answers that I don't believe are critical
to this project will likely cost us a one year of operation for this shopping center.
As it is now, we are hard pressed to get all of our information put together and
submitted and be open in November of 1999. It's typical that you would open
this type of center consistent with the holiday season, which would likely delay
this for a significant amount of time. Earlier meetings we've gone through the
staff report, I think we are in agreement on most things. As far as for tonight, I
respectfully request that you vote this plan up or vote it down with the
modifications that we've discussed so that we can proceed with the project. I'll
happily answer any questions.
MacCoy: Mr. Nelson?
Nelson: You are not going to want to hear this, I would prefer to see the
(Inaudible) ACRD report and I would like to see how it does impact. I really don't
want to press anything on without any unknowns. I don't know how the other
commissioners feel. Also a lot of the discussion tonight has been related to
sound. I would like to see that quantified by a reputable sound engineer with no
financial impact. I don't mean you, I'm talking about everyone involved, not just
the developer, or the homeowner. We've been educated by both sides and a lot
of conflicting information, so I would personally like to see something from a
registry sound engineer or whatever it takes. That's all the comments that I have
right now.
MacCoy: Commissioner De Weerd?
De Weerd: I too, since this will be the only public hearing, I would not feel
comfortable passing it on without ACHD, and without the residents having that
knowledge and being able to reply in a public situation. In your travels, have you
encountered a buffer area that has the retaining wall with the landscaping in
between the building and the wall, and how that would help the echo?
Durkin: Can you say that-I'm sorry, yes I have encountered that a number of
times. I just looked at one on Saturday in Souix Falls, South Dakota. I drove
behind a builders square which is a home improvement center operation that was
late. There was no operation going an, but they have a shopping center with a
landscaping berm a wall on top and there is-I was in my car with all plans and
estimating that I estimated that it was a smaller area. I think the wall was
probably 40 feet from the building, but there was tremendous echo. There was
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PAGE 48
an apartment complex behind it, so they were instead of single story buildings,
they were double. You know, it's so important for us to proceed that I think you
should ask Mr. Sales if there is any issue with ACRD. There is no staff issue,
you have four or five staff reports here, there is no staff issue that relates to any
of the traffic concerns, it's primarily as he has testified, an impact fee issue that
they are studying and how-the land set asides and those types of things.
Which they have told us what they want and we have already agreed to that set
aside and preservation. So I think that the traffic issues, there will be a public
hearing on traffic and the residents are welcome to go and talk about it, but your
authority to approve or deny a project because it impacts a local subdivision
that's up to ACRD to handle and to fix. I don't have the authority to fix it. They
have to direct that and I guess with my testimony and with the restriction and
outright requirement that we fulfill the obligations that they impose, I don't think
that's necessary to go through that, get that requirement and bring it back to
show you what its...
De Weerd: Mr. Durkin, I do trust that you will work with ACRD. I do believe that
ACRD will give their report verbally to us, it would be nice to have that
opportunity. It would be nice to have the opportunity for these residents whose
lives you will impact to hear that as well. I have no doubt that you will do as you
are instructed, I just think that we owe it to the public to have that be able to be
presented to them as well to ourselves. I do have a couple of other issues. I
guess I would like to see a larger berm area on the perimeter of your project. I'm
fairly new to this commission, so I can only look and learn at every meeting and
look forward and try and work to make the good decisions. So, maybe you might
see it as changing my mind, or coming up with a new idea, I do believe that it is a
corridor into Meridian, the look is going to be very important. I do agree with staff
that the berm along Fairview and Eagle should be greater. I don't like the idea of
having a sidewalk next to that major-anyway, where I see on my plat here, this
is the sidewalk that will be right against the road, or is it going to be further in.
Durkin: There has been some modifications required by ACHD that have
resulted in that being moved in to the inside of the berm area.
De Weerd: So you will have a grassy area on the outside that would be along
the road side. Are you using some of the easement for your bermed area or are
you going from the...
Durkin: All of the berm is on our property. As well as the sidewalk.
De Weerd: And the right-of--way? You're not using any of the right-of-way?
Durkin: That's correct.
De Weerd: So it's 20 feet from the right-of-way.
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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Durkin: That's correct.
De Weerd: I guess I missed at the last meeting the movement of some of the-
yourtenants or-so could you review with us again, who's where?
Durkin: Sure. The tenants that we've identified tonight, or up to tonight by name
are Shopko store, they are in the same location as they have been on our
original application. The grocery store that is also in the same location. I'll step
over here. Lets start over here, this is a theater area, that hasn't changes that
we've made I've pointed out earlier. These have restaurants and entertainment
related users that would be related to this project. By the way commissioner, I
don't know if you remember there is a stop light going in at this intersection.
There is a membership warehouse club going here, unnamed. It's very similar to
a Costco that you see on Franklin and Milwaukee or Sam's Club is another
company, or BJ's wholesale club. There is only three companies in the business
and those are the three. We have an office supply super store going in here, that
would be similar to a Staples or an Office Depot operation. We have a Shopko
general merchandise discount store going in here. Modification to this plan, this
shows a 96,900 sq. ft. store, when we submit the building permit it will be about
103,000 sq. ft. It's a lower building a little wider, but our-your ordinance for a
conditional use permit does allow those non-material changes, it won't effect the
overall square footage, but that's a change that I'm aware of now. (Inaudible) In
you packages is 1-G is a fabric, linens, apparel, (Inaudible) I'd say it would be
similar to a TJ Max or Ross store. We had a coffee shop going in on the corner.
Are you with me on this, do you want me to point this out to you? You don't care
about that's there?
De Weerd: The reason I asked is that I noticed between the plat that we had
initially and what we received in our packet this time, was a new loading dock
area that wasn't mentioned on the first one, I guess my curiosity overcame me as
to why those changes were made and why we're adding new loading dock areas.
Durkin: I just don't know what changes-the first plan is in front of me that we
submitted, this was in your packets for the last meeting as well. So this plan
was, (don't know what process-
De Weerd: I think I only received one plat...
Durkin: There is a large plan that you keep holding there. Just for your
information, what that is, the real large one that is folded up. It like on ten pages.
Do you remember the first plan when Commissioner Smith was concerned he
couldn't read the plan, I just for your benefit and for everyone's benefit l had our
landscape architect blow that up so that it would be easier for you to read and I
had it delivered to all of you. It's the same as this plan right here.
De Weerd: Okay, it would be 1-C.
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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Durkin: 1-C. Alright, we have on the first plan that we submitted, we had three
loading docks in that area, and now we have two commissioner. We had on the
first plan that was submitted, there was building 2-A, 2-B, and 2-C, each of them
having a loading dock and now we have building 1-D and 1-C to take up all of
those so we've decreased...
De Weerd: Oh, you took out 2-E and then just moved that loading dock over?
Durkin: I guess if you take that whole building, we have now five loading docks
between 1-A and 1-D. The only significant one (Inaudible) commissioner would
be 1-B. In the first plan we had nine loading docks, so we've decreased the
number of loading docks and what we refer to internally as parcel two backing up
to an area. I guess for the audience to see it, just have you hold this up Tom.
We're talking about this area right here, the reduction of loading docks in that
area.
De Weerd: You reduced them in what area?
Durkin: Right along in the is area commissioner. That's what I'm talking about
right now.
De Weerd: ON my original one I show one loading area in front of 2-E, which is
right next to the grocery store and then two in front of the grocery store.
Durkin: Commissioner, you know what you are looking at there? You're looking
at the artist rendering of the trucks. Yeah, you are not looking at the actual dock.
De Weerd: Well, there is too many trucks in front of there.
Durkin: I'm sorry, the idea there is that it shows the relationship in size. I'm
talking about the dock facilities and not the trucks.
De Weerd: Thank you, you can tell I'm the commoner up here, right?
Durkin: Hey, that's a real fair question. We have now if you can look up the
number of loading docks, we have submitted in this area, it has actually reduced
significantly. Again, there has been an additional reduction in this area,
commissioner, on building 1-E on the new plan. We had three loading docks that
have. been replaced (Inaudible) in this building. We always had two here and
there still are two here. So we've reduced two loading docks here, several of
them here. There has been no reduction here. Same number here. Same
number here. This building we do not plan to build, but there still is a loading
dock there as well. I don't have plans for this one right now, when I say that I
don't know how that's going to be configured in the future. In continuing going
around the corner here though, just a little bit, you can see that we had a number
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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PAGE 51
of other small shops here and small buildings, we now have one user going in
right there. There have been some changes and I expect that their will be more
changes as we go through the process.
De Weerd: Well thank you, I appreciate that. As far as the entrances into the
subdivision, are those going to-on your landscaped areas, are those going to be
bermed and sodded.
Durkin: Can you help me?
De Weerd: Down Records Drive and also Presidential.
Durkin: There is berm along Records Drive, between this street there is a
sidewalk and a landscaped area dividing the street obviously from the shopping
center.
De Weerd: Right there at the entrance.
Durkin: Right here?
De Weerd: No, at the buffer zone.
Durkin: Right here?
De Weerd:. Yeah, there you go.
Durkin: There was a substantial, we have really raised this up to the maximum
that can be. It will require more maintenance and possibly more planting
replacement over the years. We've raised this up drastically planted these here
and eliminated any traffic. We are also planning on signing this area employee
parking. I can't foresee the circumstances, unless it's horseplay, people driving
around this building in the evening. We'll have that secured and situated that
that would be very difficult to do.
De Weerd: And also around Presidential you also have that bermed, before their
entrance.
(Inaudible)
Durkin: I do have to have access here,
standpoint through the (Inaudible) here.
vehicles here and here and employees.
1 can't cut that, it's from a safety
It will be signed and limited to service
De Weerd: Because Commissioner Smith is missing, I need to bring up his issue
on the parking lot. I have done research myself and driven a lot of parking lots
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 52
and saw a lot of parking islands that are very attractive in groupings and so I did
take pictures, I haven't developed my film so far, or I would've showed you.
Durkin: Commissioner, I'm asking you to approve this, if you want trees in the
parking lot, put it in your motion. I'm not fighting the trees in the parking lot, I'm
not ever bring a plan in and show it to you and say don't these trees look nice,
they are going to grow forever. !'m not going to sit here every night and argue
about whether we should have trees. If you want trees, say Mr. Durkin, put trees
in. We'll put them in.
De Weerd: Okay, if I want a 35 foot berm in the front, I only have to put that in
my motion?
Durkin: Our position is that we take it to the next step, so I need, I can't. We can
come back here month to month, but I will then take it to the next step, that's the
council, or whatever it is. I need to move on. If you want a 35 foot berm, if that's
a significant issue to you, if you think it's going to be great with a 35 foot berm,
put it in the motion. I don't agree with that, but that's something I can discuss
and try to work out and try to see if it effects the viability of the shopping center,
see if it reduces the parking below your ratios. See if those things are impacted.
Out of fairness, I would look at other projects in the City of Meridian that are
gateway projects and I would see what else has similar requirements. I know
this is a new commission, and this is a new plan. There has got to be a balance
and I want to build the nicest shopping center in the area. There will be more
landscaping here than any other shopping center in Idaho.
De Weerd: I agree and it looks very nice, but again, we can only start from today
forward.
Durkin: I realize that commissioner, but it isn't like I'm submitting to you a 1984
plan. This has got more landscaping per square foot per parking stall, or
however you want to break it down, than any other shopping center in the state.
De Weerd: It's also bigger than anything that we have, so I guess that's why...
Durkin: This has got 1,350 trees, this is an enormous deal.
De Weerd: It is, it's nice, I will admit that, but it could be better.
Durkin: (Inaudible) If a 35 foot berm is significant issue to you and I can do it, I
have to reduce my isle widths and do some different things. If I can do it, I will,
but I can't answer that tonight. That's part of the next step. So if you do that in a
month, or if you do that in two months, it throws it off. These are the kind of
questions that I need answered and the only way-I'm relying on you as a
commission to allow me to take it to the next step.
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 53
MacCoy: Commissioner Borup?
Borup: I maybe fall in line with some of the others. On the ACHD report, I think
that's important, but in light of, along with what has been said, the draft report we
have, came from the homeowners, so they saw it before we did. I think getting
the information to them is not as much of a concern to me as maybe some other
issues. There are I believe 32 sites specific conditions on the draft that I have,
which is, as mentioned earlier the most that I've ever seen from ACHD, but it's
probably appropriate for the size of the project. I'm not sure what more the
applicant can do than say that they are going to comply with everything that
ACHD says they are talking about, in which this case is extensive. Some of the
questions 1 still have is on-part of my main concern is the buffer, but before we
get into that, did you-Mr. Harper made a proposal on essentially putting the
grocery store where the theater is, and the theater down on the parcel next to
Pine. Have you given any consideration to that what it may do to traffic.
Durkin: I have not, I just received that today in the mail at three o'clock this
afternoon at my office. I do have a lease signed for the other parcel.
Borup: For the one on Pine?
Durkin: Right, the one on Eagle Road, so that would require some significant
modifications by me and I'd have to go through the process with the tenant that I
couldn't commit to tonight. Their studies and research has been based on, that
was their desired area and it was our desired area as well to hook that off
Fairview. I received that (ate this afternoon as I was preparing for the hearing
tonight and I didn't have any way to do anything on that prior to this meeting.
Borup: I guess my-possibly what impact that could have on the traffic. It
looked like more than just a spot of the individual businesses, based on what I
can see on the amount of parking for the theater is probably not the same
proportion of the parking for the grocery store and would probably be another
building something in that area. I don't know if we need to go into that if you
haven't had a chance to really look at it.
Durkin: I haven't and it's really too bad, because what's happening tonight and
what's been happening through this process is you're delaying this tonight is
going to cause a competitor to leave this area. We will loose our grocery deal
because we won't be able to meet their time frame and then we will be back to
square one, which will then require a significantly different application.
Borup: At this point my question is just information.
Durkin: As far as me going back to that grocer, what you asking me to do
takes...
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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PAGE 54
Borup: I haven't asked you to do it. I asked if you had given any consideration to
what how it might effect your project.
Durkin: I have not.
Borup: The questions that I have I think are on the buffer. Some of them and I
have several, just about all the homeowners seem convinced that a concrete
block type of wall is going to be the best barrier but I haven't really heard or seen
any real studies. Are there, is that something that can be readily available, some
type of noise study on the benefit, you had mentioned earlier about the highway
noise already being buffered and I have to agree with that. If there is any
highway noise now from Eagle Road and I know there is, the buildings there are
going to reduce that. So I think it's the center noise is probably the buffering that
we're talking about.
Durkin: No one asked me to get that information that's available, the plan that I
handed out to you with the landscaping, that takes a month, so that kind of stuff
takes a long time to get. I would be able to search it out.
Borup: That's why before I did, I wanted to know how readily that type of
information would be available, if that is something that a noise engineer may
have a computer model already.
Durkin: Commissioner the City of Boise retained a company from Portland, fast
year to make two visits to Boise and do these types of studies and I could check
with that firm. I know the firm, I have their card in my office. I don't know how
long, or what type of information they would have to have to be able to give a
scientific report.
Borup: One of the proposals which kept the buffering at the ten feet had a berm
sloping up to a block wall. Is there-are you aware of-well two questions, one
maximum a maximum wall height that would be practical and then also with the
wal( acting as a retaining watt.
Durkin: Commissioner, I'm not aware of any modification that I can make that
would be better for the residents than what I have submitted to you tonight.
Borup: Well, my question would be is there a maximum wall height?
Durkin: Since I'm so opposed to the wall, I've never seen it work. Anyway, the
higher you make it, the worse it is as far as !'m concerned. I just don't have a-I
can't comment favorably on that. From my experience that I can draw on, I can't
give you the right kind of answer that you are after.
Borup: Okay, I did hear that (Inaudible). I believe that is true. I don't know if we
need to ask that to staff or if that is something that can be changed in the
MERIDIAN PLANNING~D ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 55
conditional use also. I'm not sure where-maybe I'm not sure where !'m leading.
I would have to agree that 60 feet is not practical. !'m not sure where that point
is. I don't know about a wall on top of a berm anymore than you still got an area
behind it that would be even smaller, that's less than 60 feet right now. Sixty foot
creates a park along there. Is there-well, never mind, !was going to ask if there
was any practicality to deeding that buffer area excess to a homeowner. That
would have to be unanimous-
(Inaudible)
Borup: ... to be practical and you got one hold out and you defeat what you are
trying to accomplish.
Durkin: I have actually have done that (Inaudible).
Borup: What was that...
Durkin: We ended up having to pay someone to take the land and we wouldn't
do it, so the other neighbors paid and they hated each other (Inaudible) and then
it was difficult to enter into a sprinkling agreement, but it did work. In Reno,
Nevada it's open, operating and looks nice, it was a challenge. Actually that was
a situation where we were required to build a wall and I actually went back and
visited a few years ago. There is a petition to tear the wall down. I really wish I
could get that information, but it's on (Inaudible) Nevada, it backs up to an
existing subdivision, not unlike this scenario. It's a Shopko, Safeway project. So,
it's a good project.
Borup: What was the location of that wall? Was it on top of a berm, or...
Durkin: actually, it's very difficult to find that exact circumstance. In that case,
the homes behind the shopping center were elevated. The shopping center was
built back into a hill. The homes, it wasn't a flat area like this area in Meridian.
There was echoing that they were unhappy with.
Borup: I'd like to see this thing moved on. In my mind, I don't know about the
rest of the commissioners, I don't know if it's anything that will happen tonight,
but I'd like to see it next month to definitely be the last meeting. I've stated al!
along that my main concern was the buffering. The problem is, we don't seem to
have any real solid information from the homeowners association or from the
applicant on actually what a noise reduction wall would mean. Some examples
given on the freeway and that kind of stuff, that" a whole different matter. I
somehow, would like to see some real information and that would in my mind, go
forward. I don't know how much time...
Durkin: Commissioner, if I could comment on that line that you are going down.
The process has been extremely frustrating with your city. You have a fine staff,
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
PAGE 56
organization. We work within your ordinances and it's a guess work. We throw
out what we think is good and you want something different, we modify it, we
could come back here for a year. I'm asking you tonight, !'m asking you in
another month, or six months or next year. Somebody sometime has to stand up
and say I make a motion that we either say forget it to this guy or that we
approve it. I can say well I'll go back for the study and come back in a month and
you go, well what if you do a study with this, and what if we do a study with that,
we can be here for six years.
Borup: I agree.
Durkin: Somebody, it's your job to stand up and say yes, or no. Let me go
forward, but I can't read your minds. I want to do the right thing. I promise you I
will do the right thing, but you need to give me direction. Tell me what you need
me to bring next meeting and I'll bring it. I can't...
Borup: Well, in my mind I think a lot of the issues, there is not going to be much
that can be done about it. I mean, this property goes back and I got some more
information on it also. Upland Industries originally had this back in the 80's trying
to do a regional shopping mall. It ended up going to Boise Town Square...
(END OF TAPE)
Borup: ...were proposed to be where the homes are now. Probably some
industrial area behind those office buildings way back at the back of the piece.
An individual that was on the Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council
was real concerned at the time about residential development going in there. I
believe the owner at that time, it was his option at that time to keep the property
viable. Too bad you guys weren't around in 93' could've bought the property and
would've been able to do as you had planned. Still, the buffering between the
project and I don't think we are talking about buffering traffic. There is not going
to be much traffic, I've been behind other shopping centers. Other long ones
specifically. The corridor-or the area from Gostco to Home Base on Franklin.
There is no traffic behind those buildings, that I've ever seen. I've been back
there once and a while, i've been all alone. So noise is maybe a question and I
don't know how to in my mind to answer that without an expert.
Durkin: Commissioner, I have a question for you. Commissioner Nelson tried to
find an expert without a financial interest. I obviously have a financial interest in
the project to let it go forward. The neighbors have an interest that it not go
forward or that it go forward in one way or another. How would you propose,
what would make you happy as a commissioner, how would you feel-I'm only
aware of one company and that's a Portland base company. If we hire them,
bring them in and they bring you a study in a month, that says it's a piece of
cake, don't worry about it, everyone go home and relax, are you going to be
happy with that?
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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PAGE 57
Borup: I've done noise studies on-and it's different, but on a freeway and I can't
remember where I got the information from, being cheap, I did it myself. I got the
information on the criteria that was already established. It was based on
distance on house to freeway, height of fence along the freeway, I think it was
also factored in there for shrubbery and landscaping type items. Now it's just a
matter of plugging that data in and it gave the decibel ratings of different
locations. Maybe it's not that simple there. It wasn't a big drawn out-maybe
before, I would like to ask more questions of probably Mrs. Rogers as a
representative of the homeowners association. I think I've said enough.
MacCoy: Thank you, do you want to sit down. Mrs. Rogers?
De Weerd: Malcolm, I mean Mr. Chairman, just one thing for Mr. Durkin, I
understand your time issue and I would not personally be opposed to calling a
meeting after we get the ACRD report just to deal with this one item. It takes up
most of our agenda and it might be nice to just get it in it's own separate meeting
so we can just take care of those issues. I do want to see ACHD's report and
have a chance to ask questions and comment on it. That might even give Mr.
Durkin time to have some kind of noise. My recollection-I just recall that last
meeting we talked about these masonry walls and sound and I don't think this
sound thing is a new issue that we are bringing up tonight. So, I would not be
opposed personally to calling a special meeting later this month. ACHD has their
report on the 23'x. Tuesday is the 29~', it would give, don't they do that the 4~'
Tuesday? I would not be opposed to calling a special meeting.
Durkin: Commissioner may Task-you're going to ask one of the previous
people to come back, I think it would be a good idea to ask Mr. Sale, if he's still
here, he may be able to give you a sense that they are--what the issues are with
the ACRD. I believe that there may be a false sense that ACRD is like saying
this either should or shouldn't happen. i don't know if you have read any of the
staff reports that they've submitted to the commissioners, but there have been
four of them and we are in agreement with all of them. So it's not like there is a
giant issue. Would that matter to you, would that make any difference if you
knew that to give an approval on the project subject to us abiding by every
condition put on by ACHD. I just don't understand that your authority to bring it
back after you have an ACRD report, is that going to make the 35 foot wide berm
different or the wall different? I just don't get it. There is no traffic issue that I'm
aware of with ACHD and Mr. Sale is here, he can maybe answer that.
De Weerd: Well, I don't think that ACHD is the only issue. I think the issue is still
the buffer, if we feel a masonry wall is-I guess from what I hear Commissioner
Borup say, we would like, and Commissioner Nelson, we would like to know
more information before we make you put in a retaining wall that's going to be
something that is going to be the benefit of the subdivision.
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 58
Durkin: But are you using the ACHD as an excuse. I don't know what they could
possibly tell you.
De Weerd: I would not use them as an excuse, I do feel that this is the only
public hearing that we will have. You will not have a public hearing at City
Council I think it is fair to allow people to have the opportunity to comment if they
feel it is necessary for them to comment. That's a personal feeling.
Borup: May I just comment, there is a public comment at the ACHD commission
meeting, much like this. So there is a chance to specifically to talk about the
ACHD study. The other question that 1 would have, is everything that you
anticipate in ACHD that would change your mind on how you feel about it based
on the rest of it?
De Weerd: Like the buffer area and how the noise...
Borup: Well, no, yeah those are separate issues. So if ACHD, I mean right now,
they have got 32 items on there.
De Weerd: Other than the fact that...
Borup: So they add 33 would that change your mind on how you may be inclined
to vote on the project.
De Weerd: I thought at some point Commissioner Borup, I thought we really
didn't want to forward a project until we had all the information. I know we made
a strong comment about that at our last meeting and now we are already
considering going against that?
Borup: No, I don't think it's the same situation.
De Weerd: Well, I guess I'm not experienced enough to see any difference.
Borup: We were talking about preliminary plats and findings, etc. This is a
conditional use permit, that's all we're looking at. I believe that we will have
some design and review authority here.
De Weerd: I don't know, maybe I would be interested to hear about Mr. Sale has
to say.
Borup: I would too, we are not forward (Inaudible).
De Weerd: I can't say any thing further.
MacCoy: Are you two ready to listen to Mr. Sale? Commissioner Borup, you
said you would like to recall.
MERIDIAN PLANNING A~ ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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PAGE 59
Borup: Yeah, I would like to hear Mr. Sale first, with all that still fresh on the
mind.
MacCoy: Thanks for sticking around.
Sale: How can I help?
Borup: Mr. Durkin made some statements expressing good cooperation between
ACHD and the development, is there any concern on your part on complying with
each and every stipulation. You've got some-I realize that some of them are
not specific, but there is a lot of things on the intersection, deceleration lanes,
etc., etc. Essentially would you agree with the statement Mr. Durkin just made?
Sale: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Borup, I would like to have a copy of your
tape if you'd loan it to me. I'll just take it to the commission meeting and then
we'll put the item on the consent agenda and it won't take much time at all.
Seriously, we've met the last time we met with Mr. Bauwens and their traffic
engineer there was only one item of significant discussion and I think we've
rectified that. So I guess I would conditionally-that's not the right word-I would
hesitantly agree with this statement that there are no issues. I never say never
and I don't give any guarantees. They've been good to work with, they-we're
laying some pretty heavy improvements, requirements on them. They recognize
the need for those and are being cooperative. There is no signed deal yet.
Nelson: Let me just ask this one question. My main concern was that between
the time it left here and it made it to City Council, that potentially there was some
change that impact the site plan as we've been discussing it. If you feel
comfortable, the entryways that shown and the traffic patterns of this site aren't
really an issue and that there is no concern that between now and the City
Council meeting that that get modified, without going line by line, does this look
like a pretty stable site plans as far as you're concerned.
Sale: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Nelson, last meeting we decided to add,
oddly enough as people fall over, add a driveway on Pine street to empty out that
parking area to the southwest quadrant. That's reflective of our concern which
doesn't really relate to the public streets. We have a serious concern about the
amount of traffic that is going to be going past the fronts of the stores. If you got
one of the later staff reports drafts, you've seen that in there. We are
recommending to you to encourage the applicant to do something different with
the on site circulation system. Also to aid that in the very center of the project,
Mr. Bauwens indicated that we would that they would open up the isles in that
parking area near the intersection of Fairview and Eagle so that parking area
would empty out quickly to that first driveway. That's going to be a right in, right
out driveway, but at least it will give people a way to get onto the arterial system
without having to travel a half a mile in front of the store fronts. Those are the
MERIDIAN PLANNING ~D ZONING COMMISSION MEETING •
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PAGE 60
only items that I think are still of significant discussion. I would not consider
those significant site plan changes to add a driveway and modify the driveway
isles on site.
Nelson: Thank you.
De Weerd: So in your opinion, if the applicant-he wants to work with you and
he's going to do what you recommend, you see any from ACHD's perspective,
any reason to not act tonight on this, without your report?
Sale: Mr. Chairman, I don't think I should answer that...
De Weerd: I thought I would ask anyway.
Sale: If you have a policy of not acting without a report, this is a fairly significant
application to deviate from that. There are some other applications on tonight's
agenda, that it wouldn't matter as much. I think I'll pass.
De Weerd: I have a question for Shari. If any of these changes were impacted
by ACHD's report, is that something that can be taken care of in the design site,
or design review.
Stiles: Commissioner De Weerd, commissioners, if they are not significant, I
guess if they would not be considered significant changes. Significant changes I
would say would be reducing the parking spaces below requirements, increasing
size of buildings, after they've been approved, those kind of things I would
consider significant changes. I'm not particularly happy with the way the parking
is laid out. It's kind of a free for all with it's-I don't know if Ada County Highway
District is going to make any comments requesting perhaps some of them or
directional one way with some angle parking. I think that would be more
desirable, but without knowing what kind of comments they might have, I don't
know whether they would be considered significant or not.
De Weerd: So you would not feel comfortable moving. You guys are the
professionals, come on. Would you feel comfortable passing-okay, I won't ask
it.
Borup: May I follow a question to Shari, what future presentations that we would
like you to have, are we going to have some design review and would that entail
just the buildings or would it entail parking lot design or are we going to have
some additional design review after the conditional use?
Stites: I would hope we would have some design review, the only building I've
seen is the Shopko building, I haven't seen any details of any of the remainder of
the project.
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Borup: That was the way that I read the original conditional use is that it would
be subject to design review so I'm assuming that we still have an opportunity to
review those. Some of those things. I would hope that the commission would
feel comfortable in making that a requirement. Any drive-thru's would still be
conditional use permit. I would-Mr. Chairman, and maybe Mr. Sale could just
not his head-my reading of this ACHD comments are really concerning access
in and out of the property things that impact the public roads and does not really
get into any internal parking lot design or trafFc flow within the parking lot, is that
correct? Try to make it easy yes or no answer for you.
Sales: Our jurisdiction stops at the right-of--way line.
Borup: That's why the one comment was a recommendation to the city. I see.
That's what I understood. I wanted to get that clarified.
Sales: Our concerned is not.
MacCoy: Okay, you were going to call somebody else forward here.
Borup: Well, ...
MacCoy: Or did you change your mind?
Borup: No, it was for one specific thing and that's on the noise issue. I think
Mrs. Rogers said she had done some research on that. Without getting a lot of-
well, we didn't get much detail on that, so that is what my question is concerning
that one issue.
MacCoy: Would Mrs. Rogers please come forward please.
Rogers: Yes, Commissioner Borup.
Borup: I just wanted to make sure your name got on for the record. You had
mentioned that you had done some-what type of noise study did you do?
Rogers: I found stuff that was already-I found the information was already
documented. I got it off of a web site called NONOISE.ORG. Ada Planning
directed me there, they had no other place to go to tell me to find information.
So, I went there. They were news articles, one was a study by the Minnesota
Pollution Agency.
Borup: Which of those studies did you feel was most pertinent to this situation.
The statement by the Minnesota Pollution Agency about solely trees and shrubs
for noise control. I felt that was significant. I mean-I don't know what else to
say other than I've already said. The barrier right now is not continuous, it is not
thick, the foliage will drop to the ground. You know, this is the only-what I have
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maybe anecdotal, b~ it's still written down, it's still some sort of data. We don't
have data from any ody else. We're having trouble as homeowners finding the
data. I've been to the library, I've been to Ada Planning. This is not easy to find.
At least not for homeowners. My husband tried to find a sound meter so we
could go behind and actually do this ourselves. We can't even rent one. At least
not to our knowledge, so for us-at least for me, I think that the statement about
the trees being by themselves as being little noise control. I think for us
residents, that is...
Borup: Do you know what type of project that was referring to, the one in
Minnesota?
Rogers: No, I would have to go back and look at it.
Borup: You're not sure if it's a freeway or a shopping center?
Rogers: When I read it, it was very general. Finding data on big shopping center
is also something I had a very difficult time finding specifics for. If the
commission has any idea where to find it, I will gladly go and look for it. I will
gladly go and look for it.
Borup: I don't know any. That's what we are trying to find also. Did the
Minnesota other than saying that trees as the only did not work, did they have
any other specific recommendations? Or, was that deduced?
Rogers: They stated that, they suggested as a use of a barrier that walls, berms,
or other structures intended to provide excess (Inaudible) by blocking noise from
the source. That's what I have.
Borup: Something to get some height off the ground other than just the trees.
Thank you.
Rogers: Can I say one more quick thing. One of the other, some of the other
residents have said that in addition to concerns about dust abatement and those
things, they are also concerned about outside speakers, through truck traffic
through the subdivision, the sweeping, mowing, and delivery times, and the light
shining in our yards, just to have that on there as additional concerns that I
maybe didn't address with my statements earlier.
Borup: I think all of those have been mentioned.
Rogers: Okay, thank you.
MacCoy: Before you leave there, I'm looking for a source. I've done a lot of
design work in California and they are very concerned about the (Inaudible) we
are all concerned about and there are some very heavy documents that have
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been turned out by experts in the State of California. So if you want to find a
source through the net to get the data from California.
Rogers: Do you have any specific place that I can look.
MacCoy: Not off the top of my head right now, but there's (Inaudible) I was
there at the time, but I do know that there is documents that are written in the
library.
Rogers: I've been to the library.
MacCoy: Well, I mean in California. (inaudible) got here.
Rogers: If I can find it here, I will find it, 1 will try and bring it here. If I don't know
where to look, I can't.
MacCoy: You might want to try BSU if you can, they have a total U. S. Library
and they can get material for you.
Roger: Okay, thank you. Any other questions?
MacCoy: I don't think so. Mr. Durkin?
Durkin: Can I make a comment?
Nelson: Before you do, let me let you comment about my next comment, while
you are at it. One thing we are concerned about is compliance issues and one of
the anecdotal commentary tonight, even quoting the web as a source of
information, that's find, it's a good source, but most web data needs to be
verified, so my concern is about, it may be even for your benefit, that once your
development is up, you may have by then, she finds the noise meter after your
development is ready. So in our minds as a commission, we need, the number
one issue is the buffering with the neighborhood. I think for all peoples benefit, it
needs to be in quantifiable measurable level such that, if you meet the
requirements we impose that you can prove it, so that you don't have to
continually defend it. I think it does you good, and them good. I'm afraid that we
as a commission may impose upon you a 60 foot wide buffer with a 20 foot wall
made of granite or whatever it becomes. That you invest hundred of thousands
of dollars more than are required to get the effect that these people are looking
for. Like you said before, the potential that we petition later to have that
removed. It might not be the benefit of the homeowner that we overbuild that
buffer either and give them something to deal with for the next century. So what I
am really leaning towards is getting information from a qualified sound engineer
and putting them into quantifiable numbers that we can put into a conditional use
permit and pass that on and get that approved and get away from the anecdotal.
I'm very comfortable with ACHD imposing requirements and that you'll meet
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them. By the same token, I'm very uncomfortable with passing it on and
allowing-making sure that City Council catches some of that internal traffic
issues that ACHD might have. So now, you can have your way with me.
Borup: Maybe just to add on to Mr. Nelsons comment, I'm assume that you are
talking about specifics, would that include decibel levels then?
Nelson: Yes, I mean put it in terms that levels that are recommended by
people in the industry so that you can design to it and that we can verify it and
that there is no gray area after you're done. That's what I want.
Durkin: I feel real bold asking this, but would it be appropriate for me to ask for
about a five minute break so that I can recess with Tom Bauwens who is an
engineer with my office. I think I can come up-I have an idea that I just want to
step out with him and talk about it for a minute. I think we can come up with an
idea that is a solution that is a win-win for the neighbors and you and how we can
get to that point on the berm. I don't have the answer tonight, but I have a
suggestion on how we can get an answer, it struck me this evening.
MacCoy: It's eleven o'clock already, I'll give you what do you want? Five
minutes?
Durkin: Four or five minutes.
MacCoy: You can go out...
Borup: Mr. Chairman, can we, I guess I would be in favor of doing a delay so
that we can move on, then while during those five minutes can we perhaps go
over the other four items so we don't need to do that later on.
MacCoy: Well, it won't take him very long and I've got something to say anyway
so.
Durkin: I just, I'll I want I'm specific to the berm answer, that's all I'm going to
talk about. I just need to dig/hit a resource out of his brain here.
Borup: Can we momentarily table this then, is that what we need to do?
MacCoy: I'm going to make some comment about this right now, so we're doing
the same thing.
Nelson: Is that appropriate while they are gone?
Rossman: Mr. Chairman, why don't we take a break, the applicant isn't even in
the room.
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MacCoy: Alright, we might as well do this.
Borup: So we can't table this and get 9, 10,11,12, and 13 out of the way?
MacCoy: Take a break, he's going to be gone four minutes, I all you're going to
get out of it. I think once you start anything like this, you're going to end up
having him sit too.
Borup: I thought most of these were going to be open -and closed because it's...
MacCoy: Well, it may be, but you know how this is going this evening, I thought
we'd be out by ten o'clock. That was my hope anyway. I'm afraid that we've had
a hard time of it too.
De Weerd: Mr. Chairman, are we going to take a break too then?
MacCoy: Five minutes break is all we are going to take to get out of here and
we'll get back in and see how we can do this.
Durkin: You know, the project that we're dealing with tonight is the staff report
with I haven't even counted, but there is 30 or more suggestions and provisions
in the staff report, I think we've worked through a lot of those, and from what I
can see tonight, having been through this a fair number of time, and even in this
city several times. We are basically down to two major issues. We're down to
ACRD report and we are down to what and in whose opinion is a satisfactory
berm and buffer area between the two properties. I would like to make a
suggestion. I know that last meeting when we were here, Commissioner Smith
and Commissioner Borup recommended that 1 go back and take a look and find
out how big the trees grow in five years, go back and take a look and see if there
is anything else we could possibly do to quite down the area behind the grocery
store and try our best to have the ACRD answers. For the record, we've
submitted a drawing tonight that shows what the trees do in two to five years or
two to seven, whatever we submitted, that was a request. We submitted a
suggestion for the area behind the grocery store, that was a suggestion, that's
our response to that. I'm going to submit this to Will, to the City Clerk for the
records in the list of our efforts to get the ACHD and we are not there with them
not yet. I would like, if it's at all possible tonight, because it will save a lot of our
project if we can at least come to an agreement on significant components of the
project and have us, we will agree to retain the services of this Portland base
company. They are the company that assisted in writing the noise ordinance for
the City of Boise. I don't know if you are familiar with, I don't know the details,
but there are decibels written down and what you can do, what you can't do,
what's going to make this noise, what's going to make that noise, what a truck
does, a motorcycle does and a stereo. That's in the Boise Ordinance now. We
will retain the services of that company and we will make every effort to get them
over here to meet with us and Mrs. Rogers, is it and everybody else. There is
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not a lot of time, so i can't have three months worth of meetings, we'll set a time
if it works forme, if it works far the person from the company and it works for
Mrs. Rogers. Anyone else is available and wants to come, they'll come. That
person will do a study and will do a report and we'll submit it. That's the best that
I can do and as long as there is some kind of agreement that you'll live with that.
I won't influencae them, Mrs. Rogers will be there, but it wouldn't be any less than
what we are proposing now. If he is making a recommendation that we have to
do more to comply with the decibels that are in the Boise Ordinance, they would
know the answers to the science that I don't know. They would do a report that
is a stamped, signed, and sealed report that will stand up in the court. )t's like an
appraisal a survey or a traffic study. It's the best information that a scientist can
get at that time. That's the only one company that !know that has that capability.
There may be more, but if you'll agree to accept this company, assuming that
they have the credentials, I don't know if Shari or Bruce are familiar with them, I'll
hire them and get them over here and meet with at least one of the homeowners
representatives and us and !'!I have the report in a month. I'm asking you tonight
to give me the go ahead on significant other portions of it subject to in a month I
know then 1 have to bring in the report on the berm and the quietness nature and
we have to have a satisfactory report from ACHD. I have no doubt that we'll get
what we need. We'll be able to deliver to you what we need from ACHD. I have
every confidence that that won't be a hurdle, I do think that there will be hurdle
and some discussion relating to the berm and the wall, but I'll put we'll put our
faith and our competence in the expert and I commit to you that our input, our
correspondence with them, all of it both ways will copy Mrs. Rogers, and she'll
be-if she is available, if she would come to the meeting, we'll have it on this side
of town so she will be as fully informed. So in a month, she'll have an ACRD
answer and a berm answer. In the mean time, we go forward on everything else.
MacCoy: Very good offer, let me check, commissioners comments?
De Weerd: Did Shari want to have...
MacCoy: Yes she wants to, but I want to get commissioners, he made a
presentation right now, is there any comments, or do you want to hold it till after
Shari speaks.
Nelson: I'll comment that I think that's appropriate and I would like those retained
services to review your proposal and also the proposals that have come from the
homeowners and hopefully they can help educate both the homeowner and us.
Then we can weigh the differences between what you've offered and what they
have suggested. I think that's appropriate.
MacCoy: Commissioners De Weerd, do you have any comments?
De Weerd: Not till I hear what Shari has to say.
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MacCoy: Commissioner Borup, anything from what has been presented?
Borup: No, I was still thinking about commissioner Nelsons remarks and I'm not
sure what he said is what Mr. Durkin had offered.
Nelson: I mentioned that because !wanted to specifically have the consultant
review both his proposal and those offered by the homeowners, because he, I
think there is a good chance that he might tell them what you have and that could
be detrimental, that way it might quill some concerns.
Durkin: Commissioner, there has got to be a day when you step out and there
has got to be some trust, I'm telling you that the correspondence that I have with
them both ways will be copy one representative of the homeowners association.
When we have a meeting, she will be there, if she can't be there, she can send
someone else, she can bring whoever she wants. We'll have the meeting on this
side of town so it's convenient for her.
Nelson: I'm comfortable with that.
Rosman: Mr. Durkin, just so Commissioner Nelson is clear on what you are
proposing, what you are proposing is that conditional approval be provided by the
commissioners tonight with the condition that you retain the services of this
company from Portland Oregon to do this study and provide recommendations
and that you will comply with those recommendations but you are asking for
approval today. You are not proposing that you will hire this company and that
we'll come back in a month and see their reports before the commission makes a
determination.
Durkin: I could make a motion, but I would get into trouble if I did. There are a
number of other points that I'm on the record from the last couple of meetings
that I wanted to modified. My offer relating to the two items that we just talked
about, I will be as clear as I can. We are asking for the go ahead from you, keep
in mind, that go ahead requires us to go to ACHD for more public hearings, they
can defer and take time which they have already, they can continue to do that if
they feel it is necessary. It requires us then to go to the council. We will have
another meeting in another month. There is only two things that we'll talk about,
we will talk about the ACHD report which will be public at that time, and we will
talk about that report that I'll have submitted to me from an engineering company
that I want to protect myself, it's Portland area, it might be Beaverton, it's a
Portland area company, the only one that I'm aware of, and they do noise and
screening studies and reports and they tell you what the noise will be and where
it'll be. I would imagine that company would look at what we have submitted and
tell me, you, and the neighbors what the noise impact will be on every ten feet,
twenty feet at different times of day. They will then look at what the neighbors
have drawn and then give the report on that. So there is obviously going to be
some variances. They may give a report that says both of these are bad ideas
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and you should do this. I'm willing to put the project to that recommendation of
that decision in the hands of a company-the only one that I know of that does
it-so I'm asking for approval on the vast majority of this tonight subject to you
review the ACRD subject to you coming up with a satisfactory berm noise
protection plan between this project and a residential area. As long as we are in
agreement that I can use that company.
Rossman: From the legal standpoint, I'm not sure that the commission can
provide you a partial approval sir. If you want to continue the hearing, we can
continue the hearing, but we can't make any commitments as to any issues until
we are ready to decide on the entire application.
Durkin: I think counsel that you can do a partial approval, you can do a full
approval with further review of two areas.
Rossman: Do you have any legal authority (Inaudible)?
Durkin: No, I don't. I've actually seen it done a fair number of times. That's my
legal experience. I've seen it done many times.
Nelson: I'm ready to move on with my life. I would be comfortable with sending
this to City Council with those two conditions.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, I do have a question for Mr. Durkin, I'm leaning that way
too. The two proposals that we look at, or more than two, how does that effect
your project in design if the buffering distance needed to change?
Durkin: It could, but it isn't going to effect the storm sewer flows, (Inaudible). It
allows me to go forward on the critical things that I have to do right now.
Borup: Okay, that's what I was wondering. If the noise engineer said, you need
30 feet...
Durkin: 50 feet or four feet would be adequate, those things aren't going to effect
what we need to go forward on.
Borup: That answers my question on that. The other thing, just to let you know
that I would be concerned about also is the internal circulation, which has already
been stated, ACRD doesn't really have any authority there. We kind of got a way
from that issue and on to the buffering, but the cut through traffic was a concern,
I can't see that many people doing it, but if there was some different internal
traffic control in there, that would definitely alleviate that. I'm inclined that it
would probably be included in there somewhere again in a subsequent review or
something, again I don't think that will impede your initial go ahead with your
design. That's all.
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MacCoy: Shari?
Stiles: Chairman MacCoy, Commissioners, I don't know what they are talking
about could be accomplished in the next two weeks, Will has indicated that the
only times that you have available is the 24th and the 25th, which is a Thursday
and Friday.
MacCoy: Mr. Durkin is talking about the October 13th, he said a month, so that
would be our next meeting...
Stiles: If you wait till your next meeting how can you order findings tonight
without having that information? You have to order findings, it's going to take
another month. If you would have the special meeting, continue the public
hearing to accept that information so it can be included in the findings, then
instruct the attorney to have those findings prepared for the October 13th
meeting. They will still go to City Council on October 20th just as they would if
you would order findings tonight, they are not loosing any time at all. I just don't
know if that's possible and they are able to get that sound guy out here within
the next two weeks or...
MacCoy: Mr. Durkin?
Durkin: Mr. Chairman, I have no idea because I've never done it, but I would be
shocked. It takes six weeks to get an environmental assessment and a long
time, I would just be shocked. I would be concerned of the accuracy of the report
in that short of time.
MacCoy: We had discussed before the break about having a special meeting for
you with the same month which would help in your behalf. We also realize that
trying to get the facts together and trying to get~our facts together, it's maybe
difficult. The only date we have open is the 23 and 24th. The 24th seemed to be
blocked in. The next thing is the October 13th which is our own meeting a month
away.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, a question for Shari, is there concern in your mind on
conditional approval. Approving the project with-conditional approval on the
buffering on the ACRD study and then I would probably add the internal...
(END OF TAPE)
Borup: I mean concern about monitoring it properly and I realize then the other
findings would go on to City Council I guess stipulating those same things. That
would be worked out later then back to us again.
Stiles: I guess the wording would have to be very specific to meet the
requirements of Ada County Highway District and also that the buffering not be
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less than what has already been proposed by the applicant. If Mr. Durkin is
willing to agree to some kind of condition it's--the buffer has to meet the
requirements of the sound engineer plus be approved in writing by something by
the homeowners association. I guess that I really don't feel comfortable in
accepting information after you have closed a public hearing and trying to
incorporate that into findings. Maybe our whiz attorney can have a way to do
that.
Rossman: I don't know if whiz attorney is an accurate description, but I think
there is a distinct difference, !think there is real miscommunication here and
there is a distinct difference between conditional approval which is an approval
today of the application on the conditions as stated by the commission to include
the two issues that all recommendations, requirements of ACHD be complied
with and all recommendation requirements of the sound engineering outfit be
complied with. That's a conditional approval, but there is also a difference about
what has also been talked about today with providing partial approval today on all
issues except the two, the ACRD and the sound issue and continuing the public
hearing to another date for only those two issues. There is a complete difference
between those two proposals. If you want to continue the hearing you continue
the hearing on the entire application, from a legal standpoint. If you want to
grant conditional approval today, then you grant conditional approval today on
those terms. The way I see it from a legal standpoint, those are your two
options, or a denial.
De Weerd: If they order findings, they would have to close the public hearing
and the public would not be able to comment on the studies that we will be
hearing next month, right?
Rossman: That's right, if you grant conditional approval you're putting your full
faith and trust in the fact that this engineering report wilt be accurately prepared
and that everybody will be satisfied with it and that it will actually resolve the
issues that have been raised today. That is entirely up to you, that's certainly not
something that would be out of the ordinary or something that you could not do.
You certainly can grant conditional approval on those terms.
Durkin: I think the point is the buffering would not be less than is presently
proposed. I will go on record that I'm agreeable to expanding it, extending it. If it
accomplishes something, I'm agreeable to that. The final outcome will meet or
exceed the requirements in the Boise City Noise Ordinance. So I don't know if
those are the two correct words, meet or exceed when talking about noise, but
my idea is that it would be quieter than what is required by the City of Boise.
I'm-it's tricky, I don't know how...
De Weerd: Well, essentially what we are doing if you guys go ahead and do this,
because I'm just one vote, is that the homeowners will not have a chance to
respond outside of Mrs. Rogers having her part in the study.
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Durkin: Well, it's just an idea.
De Weerd: I'm still open to a special meeting.
Durkin: I am also, I would make every effort to accomplish this in that amount of
time. I've never retained these people, I've never retained anyone like them
anywhere in the United States, they might be the only one in the world. They
might be all over doing this, I have no idea, so I don't know if I can call them up
and get them over here on Friday or what, I have no idea what to expect.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, in my mind a special meeting would answer the ACRD
questions and realistically probably not the noise engineering issue. Mr. Durkin
on the internal traffic flow within the development, is that something you've had
your engineers look at, at all?
Durkin: Commissioner Borup, frankly, I wasn't aware of that concern till this
evening, aside from the landscaping parts in there.
Borup: Well it was in the ACHD draft report.
Durkin: Right, I'm aware of it that way. I thought we had responded to that.
Okay. We think we are making ACHD happy. He's going to have fun with this
tape at the hearing, I'm not aware of a problem with it, we have an engineering
company.
Borup: Essentially I think it's what Boise Town Square has.
Durkin: What's that?
Borup: An internal roadway, but it's a different configuration than the building.
Durkin: It's completely different. I wasn't ready to respond to that, I thought that
was a resolved issue with ACHD and our traffic engineer and my associate Tom
Bauwens, I just wasn't aware until right now that was still outstanding. Is there
any solution? Our traffic engineer is doing an analysis and I don't know...
Borup: I think I'd asked that earlier if that was something we could review in the
design review aspect.
Durkin: Can you do the berm in the design review aspect?
Borup: No, I'm talking about that internal traffic study. I guess it depends on
what areas we have design review over. Just the buildings, or does the parking
lot? Whatever we decide, okay.
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MacCoy: Commissioners, are you ready to make a decision here?
Rossman: I think there is another witness.
MacCoy: Alright, Mr. Durkin, if you have no more to say to us, the
commissioners have agreed what you've go# right now. We've still got the open
hearing.
Nelson: !have one quick question, believe it or not, it's unrelated to the last two.
If you could just, I just thought of this tonight and what provisions do we have for
like a throughout the site some kind of continuity of design?
Durkin: We have an architectural design that we've submitted for the Shopko
store, that design, those materials and those colors will go throughout the whole
main building of the project, then on each of the individual buildings we'll go
through this process on each, on a building by building, on a small, what we call
a pad site uses, along here. So we will submitting those each individually, but all
these buildings will have the same exterior materials and colors as the
architectural drawings that we submitted on the Shopko store.
MacCoy: Anything you want to say? Okay, thank you. Still an open public, and
we have somebody in the back here that would like to speak.
BROOKE BARZEE, 3670 E. FLORENCE, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Barzee: One thing that I think hasn't been raised and this is something that I just
realized is my home is there is the big warehouse store and then there is
parking in between there and the stores next to it. That goes clear up to our back
yard. They were stating that there wouldn't be any activity besides delivery
trucks and I think there wilt be more than that there. I don't know that that's been
addressed. Do you know where I'm talking about? I did see a picture of the
berm that he was proposing, which a berm is better than being flat, but I think it
would need to be around-if you are going to do it where the grocery store is,
we're just as close. I think it needs to be a benefit for all adjacent property
owners, mostly because my husband works from three to two in the morning,
he's in bed asleep, he needs that additional buffering also. We've discussed the
effect of the traffic on the subdivision, even though this is going to be a benefit to
Meridian, it's going to effect the entire city, it's an artery clear to Eagle, if not
farther, I'm sure that's being address. Just tonight, it seems like everyone is
concerned about that area, I think it's used for more than that subdivision and
shopping center. The only other thing I wanted to mention was that you're saying
we are worried about the buffering and screening. I think we've brought up more
concerns than that, that need to be considered before approval. I would want to
know what your thoughts are on that, I know that you are concerned about it,
rather than the buffering and the traffic only. We've had a whole list but not been
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PAGE 73
able to concentrate on those. I can't list them all, but I know there are more.
That's it. Any questions?
MacCoy: Is there anybody else before we close the public hearing?
MARTY HALE, 3515 E. CONGRESSIONAL, MERIDIAN, 1D. WAS SWORN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Hale: !was here the last meeting and this meeting and I am a little bit concerned
about a couple of issues. I know that we've discussed this already a little bit, I've
tried to live my life doing things for other people, that I would like have done for
me. I can not envision myself living in the Crossroad Subdivision without a better
barrier than a six foot wooden fence and some trees built up on a five or six foot
berm, whatever. I think we've got to have a little bit more than that. Mr. Durkin
did bring up the Portland Company and he said he would pay for that. I applaud
that wholeheartedly, but I would like to have him a little bit more removed from it,
then just paying for it. I think that if Mrs. Rogers were willing, I think if she were
to contract the company herself and he could pay them through her, I would feel
more comfortable as a homeowner with that. Remove him a little bit away from it
or contacting Portland company, I know that anybody that's in business knows
somebody else that is in the same business. So there has to be some other
companies. I just want it's not like I'm not trusting, I just want to be as
comfortable with this as possible. I do want to have public hearings after that has
been made. I think that's rather important. Please do that. My other concern is
the traffic, I know that we've discussed this, but for once in my life as a citizen of
not only this nation, but of this community I would like to see some traffic
concerns addressed before the development happened. I'm sick and tired of
having the development happen first and then watching ACHD try and catch up
to us. I understand that Mr. Durkin wants to move this thing forward quickly, but
my experience and I know that everybody else has found this to be the case,
haste does make waste. I do think we need to tread this very carefully. Again, I
refer back to the traffic, I would like to see some of those traffic concerns
addressed well ahead of the construction even beginning. I think that makes
sense, I have been in other states where they have always had, I remember
looking at maps of cities with city streets on it that didn't even exist yet, for two
years. In all the construction of the city streets were well ahead of the actual
development, that makes a whole lot of sense to me. For one time in my life, I
would like to see Idaho do the same thing. I'm finished.
MacCoy: Thank you, I'll answer your questions in a moment here. Is there any?
The hour is getting late here, i hate to tell you but we were going to break at 11
o'clock and it's almost midnight now and we still have more to go tonight.
Durrant: My only thing is I just would like to remind the commission as a
homeowner, I would like you guys wait and see the ACRD report and possible
insist that they do use a recent traffic study done within the last completion of the
MERIDIAN PLANNING ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
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PAGE 74
Eagle Road project, I think that would have a big impact on the size of this
project that would be able to accommodate the traffic flow. I never even heard
anybody talk about it, I didn't even know if it was a possibility of shrinking the size
of the project by a certain percentage to accommodate traffic. I just wanted to
put that out.
MacCoy: Mr. Durkin do you want to get back up here again?
Durkin: No, I think !'ll wait till someone else get up. Otherwise in the interest of
time, I know everyone is tired.
DAVE BARNES, WAS SWORN BY ATTORNEY.
Barnes: I think my only comment is I think everyone is thinking on a what is the
minimum that we have to have to get by with and I live in that subdivision and I
don't want the minimums, I`ve got to live there. If the minimum is here, why don't
we once raise the level and start shooting for something that is way above the
minimums. If the berm is required for a ten foot, lets push it out and make it
nicer. I think everyone is always shooting for the minimums, well, lets just get by.
If it's this big of a project and it could benefit the city as big as it's going to let it,
let's make it the best thing there for both people, for the city, for Mr. Durkin and
us too.
De Weerd: I just have a comment and I've been trying not to say this at ail, but I
finally have got to that point. If you go and look at shopping centers that we have
in this local area, you will not see anything behind them, we're not going for the
minimum here, this developef is not even agreeing to just the minimum. They
are going above and beyond what you see in this area, anywhere. So we will not
on your behalf accept the minimum. I think tha#'s already apparent. I think 1've
visited every shopping center in this area and you would be appalled to see what
is abutting their property line. Generally it's weeds or it's houses. I think this
developer is being very fair in trying to work this out and we are trying to be as
fair as we can to make sure that your concems are met and that you are going to
get the best buffering that you can. There, I get off my soap box, but we are not
going for the minimum, and I don't think this developer is going for the minimum.
So, I'm sorry i tried not to say that this whole time.
MacCoy: Very good.
Brown: Commissioner De Weerd, I just wanted to let you know as far as the
minimum, I think one of our concerns was that I spoke to Shari on staff after the
last meeting and I remember her saying that the original proposal, I mean this
must have been way back. The original proposal by Mr. Durkin was a ten foot
buffer even after Shari had told him that the minimum that they would accept was
20. So what I understand from Shari is that the minimum was 20, which is what
he is proposing. He said he has increased it from 10 to 20, but from what I
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PAGE 75
understood from Shari was that she had told him originally at the beginning the
minimum was 20. I just wanted to clarify that. That's what I've been told and I
think that was our understanding as far as the minimum for the buffer. Thank
you.
MacCoy: Is there anyone else at this point?
De Weerd: I just have a response that was just a recommendation, that does not
mean that is the minimum under our ordinance, that was a recommendation.
Jaynes: I know you mentioned earlier something about property values and I'm
waiting to hear whatever you had to say.
MacCoy: I've been waiting my turn too.
Jaynes: I have noticed that in the subdivision, we have a bunch of rentals now
and we never used to have rentals before. That is a real concern to me because
if people can't sell their houses now, people are certainly not going to be able to
see them after this goes in. That is a real concern. That realty effects property
values. In fact, I have a rental right across the street from me right now. So, I
just wanted to let you know that it's already effecting people and their ability to
sell their houses in the subdivision, because it's never happened before, i've
never seen a rental in there before.
MacCoy: I'm afraid to ask the question. Is there anyone else in this group here
that would like to have the fast two bits in this point before we move on? Before I
give it to the commissioners, I'm assuming that we are at a point now that every
body at least had their say. I would like to open your minds a little bit because,
Commissioner Borup and I have served on a couple of other commissions as
volunteers which very much impact your area and our area and this city and this
county. We both served on traffic commissions and areas that relate to traffic
commissions. Mr. Durkin this evening made one small comment which went on
through everybody, I'm sure. It was to do with the fact that he is putting up
buildings in this area and -you may be glad they are there. The comment made
recently about planning ahead. Ada County and Canyon County are working
together and planning ahead. We've been at this for months. I want to share
with you something that has just come to light this summer and we have not put it
into print yet, I've already asked Mr. Sale this evening can I comment on that. I
think it may make some difference to you or at least open your minds to
something in the future. Ada County, Canyon County, ACRD all the people that
are involved in this thing have already looked at Eagle, Eagle just got expanded
on the way down toward Eagle itself, the City of Eagle and now they've decided
that they are going to expand it again and also Fairview is looking at that. The
intersection of Eagle and Fairview has been declared this past summer as the
busiest intersection and will continue to be in the state of Idaho, even to the point
that we are faced with now, even though we've got a shopping center going in
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PAGE 76
this corner. All four corners are being looked at nationally. This is the-if you
were to read the communications that we have seen recently. The Consumers
Report, Newsweek, Time Magazine has placed Meridian as number one and two
in the nation for growth. We are receiving countless comments and letters,
commentaries of what can they buy into, where can they go with this. This area,
this intersection is now programmed as one of the busiest there is going to be in
the nation. ACRD has already looked at and got on the drawing board, over
under this intersection, which means they are going to elevate some highway in
this area. If it wasn't for this building going in here, you would have traffic noise,
you couldn't believe. It would be elevated above your house. This is going to be
a good buffer in itself to where you live right now. We talked about real estate.
I've talked to some very influential people who are in real estate, who own real
estate corporations not just the company locally. They say, within five years,
you're sitting on a gold mine because you are going to be right next to where the
action is. People who want to be able to walk to a place that they can buy goods
and so on will want to buy your home. You're going to experience for the first
couple of years, the dip then after that, you could put a sign up in your place and
it will be sold very quickly at a price you want to save for it. It's going to meet a
lot of criteria for the people who are retired, people who want to be in close
because of other reasons. They can get to the shopping center and ones around
this area by foot, by bicycle, so on. The land right across Fairview just north of
this property is being looked to as an expansion and along with that, we are
already looking at a fly over, pedestrian wise in these two--connecting these two
areas. The reason they picked that direction and not Eagle because Eagle is so
large to crossover, but Fairview is not. So look to the possibilities of the future. It
may look glim, glum, sad to you right now, but the future looks bright if you talk to
people who develop, people who do real estate, people who are wanting to be in
this area. You are in a Mecca area, maybe what you bought into at the time
didn't look too good, but it may look real well five years down the road. So the
main point is if you like where you live, and t think you do have a real nice area, it
was put together by a developer who listed that thing and did the work for a
quality area. So it's not something that you are living in which is a slum area at
all, you are living in very good area and it will be profitable to you later on. I'm
not going to take any more time because it's getting to be twelve o'clock and
we've have got to move on. Commissioners, what do we have in mind?
Rossman: I think you should close the public hearing first.
MacCoy: I`m going to find out if this is what they want to do.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, I move that we continue the public hearing to the special
meeting September 24~' at which time, we can review the ACRD report and
perhaps get some additional direction on the noise study.
MacCoy: Do I hear a second on that?
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PAGE 77
De Weerd: Second.
MacCoy: Any discussion?
Nelson: I guess I'm comfortable with the special meeting, I just hope we don't
bring people in to a special meeting and have to re-meet again on the 13~' of
October. Do we gain enough...
Borup: My intention would be hopefully we have enough information at that time
to move to have findings prepared.
Nelson: Okay, I'm in.
MacCoy: Anymore discussions? Would you amend that and put a time in there
so we can meet at a described date and time so everybody knows.
Borup: I'm open, in the past, sometimes special meetings we've had a half hour
early.
MacCoy: That's correct, do you want to do that?
Borup: Would that be appropriate, 6:30? I would like to add that to my motion,
meeting time 6:30.
Nelson: I'll comment that !will be out of town that week so we need to make
sure we have a quorum. Pending Mr. Smith showing up.
Borup: Three is a quorum.
MacCoy: Three is a quorum, we can do it that way, we can cover.
Borup: If you want to cop out like that.
De Weerd: Most specifically, will be to address ACHD and the buffer issues. Of
course, we don't want to forget my 35 foot wide landscape and looking at
breaking up the parking.
Rossman: I need a second on the motion.
Borup: Second on my amended motion.
Nelson: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
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PAGE 78
MacCoy: We'll see you back here on the 24"'
ITEM 10: CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY
AND FINAL PLAT FOR PROPOSED FIRST MERIDIAN PLAZA BY WILD
SHAMROCK PARTNERSHIP -SOUTH OF GEM AVENUE BETWEEN
MERIDIAN ROAD AND E. 1sT
MacCoy: Is the applicant here to make any statements since we have a
continued public hearing?
Berg: Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, we contacted the applicant
and he informed us that he wasn't ready for the meeting tonight and wanted to
postpone until October. We talked with Brian Iverson, he was supposedly faxing
a note explaining this.
De Weerd: On item number 10?
Borup: Mr. Chairman, I move that we continue the public hearing item #10 to
October 13"'.
De Weerd: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor.
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
ITEM NO. 11: CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR
PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR PROPOSED WHITESTONE ESTATES NO. 3
SUBDIVISION BY WHITESTONE PARTNERSHIP -WEST OF CINDER AND
SOUTH OF FRANKLIN:
KEITH JACOBS, WAS SWORN BY THE ATTORNEY.
Jacobs: As you remember from last time, i sent a letter requesting this hearing
be continued to this date. At that time, ACHD had made a request that we
weren't prepared to deal with at that time. On September 2"d we met with two
ACHD's representatives, Meridian P & Z representative, my client and a
representative from the school district. ACRD had requested that the tum around
or the way we had designed the street intersection at the south west corner of
the subdivision would be changed to reflect how we designed them. The other
intersection at the south east comer. So at that meeting, we worked out the
details of that particular intersection and the plat you have reflects that. The
utilities that we intend to have the public utilities within the public street. Move
that manhole that is outside of that public right-of-way and that corner and put
that within the street five feet off of the lip of gutter and also move the fire hydrant