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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 02-11 Pre Meridian City Pre-Council Meetina Februarv 11. 2003 The Pre-Council Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 5:30 P.M. on Tuesday, February 11,2003, by Mayor Robert Corrie. Members Present: Robert Corrie, Bill Nary, Cherie McCandless and Tammy de Weerd Members Absent: Keith Bird Others Present: Brad Hawkins-Clark, Brad Watson, Kenny Bowers, Janice Smith, Stacy Kilchenmann, Bill Nichols, Gary Smith, Pauline Skeggs, Will Berg and Tara Green Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: x X Tammy de Weerd X Cherie McCandless 0 X Mayor Robert Corrie Bill Nary Keith Bird Corrie: 2003 at 5:30. Please haye roll call attendance please. Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Corrie: You have the agenda in front of you. Are there any other corrections or changes? If not I will entertain a motion for the adoption of the agenda. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I moye that we adopt the agenda as presented. Nary: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and second to adopt the agenda as presented. Any further discussion. All those in favor say aye. All ayes motion carried. Item 3. Discussion with Helen Sharp regarding Wingate Lane: Corrie: Next item is discussion with Mr. and Mrs. Sharp regarding Wingate Lane. Mrs. Sharp. Mrs. Sharp: Mayor Corrie, Council members I appreciate your time. We have discussed this many, many times that we'd all like to leave this situation laid to rest. The reason I am here tonight for those of you who have been inyolyed with Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 2 of 25 this since we started in1995. At one of the meetings we discussed the this and the that's that the deyelopers haye to abide by in order to get their subdivision. My question was who enforces the this and the that's? and raise some eyebrows. I'm referring to Mayor and Council September 28, 2000 some of the guidelines that were discussed. Those of us that live on Wingate Lane were under the impression and have been lead to belieye that the perimeter on the west side of the Subdiyision or on the west side of Wingate Lane that is part of Packard Acres Estates was to be fenced around the perimeter before building permits could be granted. I was given and highlighted the area that says and I quote item number six. Applicant shall be responsible to construct a six-foot high perimeter fence along property boundary parentheses and westerly easement lane and Wingate Lane except where the city has expressed agreed in writing that such fencing is not necessary. Fencing is to be in place prior to applying for building permits. This gives them the avenue to say we don't have to have it fenced. I'm sure that the staff would be more then happy to show me in writing the areas that did not have to be fenced. We do know that there is a boundary dispute on the north side of this property and a couple of weeks ago we were told it was going to be fenced as staff had said they had overlooked that north boundary on the property. To date that boundary settlement has not been settled and the other person involyed in that, Ms. Dixie Roberts, is in the hospital recovering form surgery so I doubt if that's going to be granted soon. Going along to item number fifteen on the same memorandum it says and I quote provided detailed fencing and gate plans that also show the proposed location of irrigation clean out structure for approved prior to signature on the final plat. Irrigation plans must be approyed by downstream water uses, which isn't - perimeter fencing shall be installed prior to applying for building permits. It does not say anything about necessity or who ever thinks its necessary. Going on to item number 22 on that. All damages to Wingate Lane caused by the developer or contractors are to be repaired immediately. Homeowners along Wingate Lane have reported that damage to the lane presently exists from construction equipment and work on the irrigation system. No building permits will be excepted until the repair work is completed. The developers haye agreed that no construction traffic will be allowed to access Wingate Lane. Unfortunately I don't know if some people can't read or they choose not to. That Wingate Lane has not been brought up to what it was prior to the development being started. Here again is a requirement for granted building permits, we haye at least fiye or six houses that are currently being built. There is another on the same memorandum that we received and it is a question of who supercedes here. The city requires that there be and I'm quoting item number 20. The city requires that there be a gate across east Challis Street on east boundary of Wingate Lane and on the west boundary of Wingate Lane this shall allow pedestrian traffic as well as bicycles. For those of you that are not aware of it, we haye a public street that is across Wingate Lane and that is east Challis. Does that mean you are going to gate it now? Of course not. So the question is why. If these are stipulations for granting a subdivision, if they are not enforced why bother, why haye the agencies that are going to draw up these guidelines if nobody is going to enforce them. You might say with a Meridian City Pre Council February 11. 2003 Page 3 of 25 priyate lane eyerybody is aware or most of you should be aware of the private road agreement of 1913 and the big question, what's the bid deal? To us, it's our priyate lane. It is our driveway. We are the dominant. It so happens the developer is s urbient to usa s t hey a re north 0 f u s. Some people don't even know what that means. But we are dominant because the lane was established for our property we are at the end of that Wingate Lane so to us it is our driyeway and we are trying to protect it. But our question is to what help do we get if these are the guidelines and who is going to enforce them? We have talked to the Ada County Highway District and they say it is Meridian. We talk to the people in Meridian and they say its Ada County Highway District. So we are getting the runaround. My question to you members is who is going to enforce this and if you are not going to enforce it why bother? Corrie: Brad lets hear from you and the comments, then we will ask some questions here in reference to - I think you sent a letter to Mr. and Mrs. Sharp in reference to number six, is that correct? Mrs. Sharp: Yes and it was also in reference to also the very hazardous condition that we have out there now that they haye crossed that private lane and that was confirmed by the police department here too. Corrie: You understand that private lanes and street crossing. You have to stop for the street. Mrs. Sharp: But we didn't cross the public road. They crossed our private lane. The question was whether 0 r not they were going to acknowledge the private road agreement. I'm sorry. Corrie: Did they not own the land that they put the street across? Mrs. Sharp: The developer does. He owns it. He's responsible. He's giyen the easement right to the Ada County Highway which also means according to our to agreement he's supposed to help maintain it. That's another complaint we have tonight as I mentioned. That lane has not been brought up to what it was prior to him starting the development. If any of you that would be brave enough to drive down that lane you would know what I was talking about. Not only that but we also haye where the city is putting in the sewer that was supposed to be a three week project that started in Noyember and they are still working on it. So that has added to the real problems we have on Wingate Lane. Corrie: Brad. Hawkins-Clark: I guess I would agree with Helen in terms of the conflict between the fencing conditions. One section does say that perimeter fencing shall be installed prior to applying for building permits. Item number six does say that the city if approved in writing it would be approyed otherwise. So I think basically Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Pege 4 of 25 what we have here - there is two conditions that kind of differ from each other and I would say that that's probably a problem when we are drafting our staff report. We should've caught that but our feeling was that the perimeter condition had been fulfilled in that the perimeter that Mrs. Sharp's talking about is abutting the south side of Challis Lane, which is owned by the deyeloper. So should we put a fence up at that location eyen though it's the perimeter of this phase it will serve no purpose upon future development of that piece south of Challis. Mrs. Sharp: But we are not talking about future we are talking about the present. Hawkins-Clark: Right but we do have a condition that says we will fence. I mean the developer did not have to fence in areas where the city agreed in writing that they didn't have to. Mrs. Sharp: May I see the part that you haye in writing that they don't haye to fence. Hawkins-Clark: We haye an approyed fencing plan that was submitted to our department. Mrs. Sharp: Here it says in writing. Hawkins-Clark: We haye an approyed fencing plan that's stamped approved in writing by our staff that says that they can construct it that way. Mrs. Sharp: And then in talking with a staff member who admitted to me that the north perimeter wasn't fenced but he had contacted the developer and it was going to be the next week that was like I say two or three weeks ago. It hasn't been fenced because there still is a boundary dispute and that again brings up another problem. If the developer doesn't get that six feet, those lots which would be lots 22, 23 and 24 would not be correct. They can't be if he is including that six feet that he has now that he doesn't haye. The woman that owns that says no - not to mention lot 23 that starts down Wingate Lane. The measurements on that cannot be correct either. Because I'm sure that when the developer felt that that six feet was his and they included that in the measurement of those lots and to date they don't have it and in going back with the fence on the south side of the deyelopment, which would be south of Challis. The developer yes does own the fiye acres, which is the five acres north of us. It hasn't been annexed and he told us that he doesn't know when or what he is going to do with it. So the necessity of fencing that is another matter of opinion I would say. But I was told by staff that the north side should have been fenced and its not. But here again we are disputing boundary. Hawkins-Clark: If I could Mayor just ask for clarification from Mrs. Sharp to point out on the screen which north boundary you are referring to. Here is Dixie Roberts property right here. Here is Wingate Lane that comes up to here is Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 5 of 25 Ustick, Wingate Lane and the Roberts property and Packard. Here is lot 22 right here. Mrs. Sharp: The lots 22 and 23 are against her area. Hawkins-Clark: 22,23,24 and 25. Mrs. Sharp: That are against her property. Hawkins-Clark: That's correct, there are four lots that abut that property. Mrs. Sharp: And lot 23 is the one that is on the corner there that would be partially going down Wingate Lane. Hawkins-Clark: That would be 22. Mrs. Sharp: I stopped by there tonight and it was 23 but one of the lots we know is partly there on Wingate Lane but the property dispute has not been settled. In fact she had called my husband from the hospital today about that. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mrs. Sharp, are you here because you tried to work with our code enforcement people and the planning department to address these concerns and the conditional use permit and you are unsatisfied with their response to you? Because all I have is a letter from you and I don't have a written report from the planning department and I'm not sure exactly what you think we are going to do other then give it back to them to tell us in writing what they have done to address your concerns. Mrs. Sharp: I'm here to enforce having the line brought back up to standards by the developer. He said he would. For those of us of course not everybody was involved in this originally. That he would agree to whatever the bodies agreed to do and were saying he said he would bring that lane back up to and its not. And of course when it gets to bad the mail -- the postal won't driye down it because (inaudible) I'm here to ask you to enforce the department to do what they said they had to - the developer had to do. Nary: We always do that. That's always our direction. Is that we enforce these conditions. But what I'm hearing Mr. Hawkins-Clark saying is that they are in compliance with the conditions, you may disagree with the planning department as to whether its in compliance but that's partially what I'm hearing Mr. Hawkins- Clark say. So I'm not sure that we are ever going to reach an agreement. But I don't haye any information in which to make a decision on. What I haye is a Meridian City Pre Council February 11. 2003 Page 6 of 25 letter from you that doesn't have a lot of information and I assume that is why you are here to tell us m ore information. I don't haye anything from the planning department for us to decide whether or not they haye taken all the adequate steps. My assumption is they haye but I don't haye anything to base that on that they have taken all the steps and tried to address your concerns and there is just a point where there is a disagreement. I don't know if that is where we are at. Mrs. Sharp: Well of course - you are saying you haye a copy of our letter. If you went back to the files. Nary: I don't have the files. All I haye is your letter. I don't have anything else that says what did we do to address your concerns. So maybe that's what we need is something else but if what your saying is that you worked with Mr. Hawkins-Clark and his department and that you belieye these conditions hayen't been complied with and there are particular examples you can show and they have a person whose job it is, our code enforcement person, Mr. Venneman that can go out there and make a decision on whether a compliance has been done and if it hasn't what do we do about it. Whether we go back to the Planning and Zoning Commission look at revoking this conditional use permit or whether or not it is in compliance or is a substantial compliance and therefore it is just a disagreement and maybe your address is with the developer a nd not t he city. But I don't know any of that alii know is what your letter is but I'm just afraid that your thinking we are going to do something more then give it back to the department whose responsibility it is to enforce these and then have them tell us what they'ye done about it. Mrs. S harp: I 'm here tom ake you a ware that things aren't being d one. And getting back to Mr. Joe Venneman, I have talked to him. His phone call to me and I repeat, I'm sorry but I hayen't got the authority that's not in my job description. In essence is what he told me. Cause I called and said who is responsible for enforcing these (inaudible) and I was told that he did. So I called him. And I'm here to say that the Planning and Zoning or whoever the agency that makes these guidelines. Who are they responsible to make sure that these things are done? For example that the road has been brought up to standard that they did get the fencing and if they didn't. I want to see a letter in black and white as it states here that they don't have to. Nary: It doesn't haye to be a letter. It says it has to be in writing. And as Mr. Hawkins-Clark stated if they submit a fencing plan and that is approved by the city that's a writing approving whateyer it is they are required to do. They don't need to type up a letter and send it to the deyeloper detailing out a change. They can approye his plans and that's satisfactory. So that's not an issue if they have done that that's fine they can do that. That's not an issue for us. The issue is whether or not it is in substantial compliance with the requirements and as far as I think it is it is Mr. Venneman's job or the Planning and Zoning Department to verify these complaints you haye that is out of compliance. They make a Meridian CUy Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 7 of 25 decision and if they believe it is in compliance then you can have a conversation with them at some point it could go to the Planning and Zoning Commission for them to reyiew it and eventually come to us. But we are a little early in the process for it to be here. Mrs. Sharp: Brad just loyes - I'd hate to see how many times I walked in on him and had a meeting with him and discussed these things and we see that nothing has been done. As far as we are concerned these issues have not been addressed. We did get the letter or I did get the letter stating that they don't have the perimeter under the - and we didn't feel it was necessary we are going to give the developer the benefit he doesn't have to fence it, he owns that piece of property south of the deyelopment howeyer we haye been told by the developer that he doesn't know when just because he owns it and it has not been annexed its not included its not part of the present subdiyision and like I say its not part of it. So where we do we draw these fine lines and I'd still like to - okay if that's your argument, not surprisingly, when do we get the road put back. Who is going to see to it that the road is put back where it's supposed to be before the development started. Corrie: You mean the lane? Mrs. Sharp: Excuse me the lane. It's also under private road agreements, which is the one that was established in 1913. That comes under private road agreement as - Nary: Eyery condition in the Conditional Use Permit has to be adhered to by the developer in substantial compliance and it is the Planning and Zoning staff's responsibility to verify that. If you haye a complaint which I don't see a written complaint I see what you are saying and I understand what you are saying but I don't have anything to compare it to. What you are asking us is to revoke this conditional use permit and we don't have enough information to do that now. That is a process that has to be gone through, through the Planning and Zoning Department as well as the Planning and Zoning Commission before it comes here for us to do that. And there is always time for the developer to cure it. If it hasn't been done that's what you need to do. Mrs. Sharp: We've been trying that like I say - talk to our neighbors too. If we could tell you how many letters that have been written and we don't even get answers to the letters much less action. Nary: Again I don't have any of your letters. Mrs. Sharp: Of course not if you don't check the files. I mean if you are coming to a meeting it seems to me there would've been a little research a little bit of work done. Meridian City Pre Council February 11 , 2003 Page B of 25 Nary: That's not how it works ma'am. Mrs. Sharp: ObYiously it isn't, that's why nothing is getting done either. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I see a letter in your hand from the Planning and Zoning Department, so there has been a response. It appears if we give it back to the department -- Does the city have the authority to make those to enforce the repairs on a road and maybe Brad can a nswer that. Can we do it or is that a responsibility of ACHD? Second, and it looks like our staff has made a decision on the fencing and the Sharps don't agree with what that approved plan was that wasn't available during the 0 pen public hearing then they h aye a n appeal process to that. But I don't know how much of this is really known and the buck as to stop somewhere. They just need an action plan. And this as been going on for those neighbors for oyer two years and probably longer if its been since 95 -- Mrs. Sharp: This subdivision was started in 1995 and at that time of course Ada County Highway - it was agreed by the developer Ada County Highway District and the City of Meridian that there would be no change to Wingate Lane. It would be fenced from the north boundary of the subdivision down to the south end of the boundary. All of a sudden we haye a road that they have crossed Wingate Lane there at Challis they were not going to do that until the properties north of us and ours was developed. That went out the window too they decided we are going to cross and we are going to no matter what and that's exactly what's happened. De Weerd: Now Brad can you tell us is Joe able to enforce the condition to bring Wingate Lane back to the condition it was in prior to construction? Or is this an ACHD thing? You know I guess that that's the basic question on that specific condition. Hawkins-Clark: Well if I could just clarify the record on one point that, Mr. Nary it is the plat conditions not conditional use permit conditions just to clarify that. I believe that 0 ur department is a ble to enforce conditions that t he City Council approves. My problem in this case is that the condition where is worded in such a way that if damage is caused to Wingate Lane by the contractors or developers it must be repaired immediately. We do not have the evidence. Is it our fault that we didn't take a picture of Wingate Lane before the plat was approved and then take one after work began? Maybe that is something that we can take responsibility for but how do we prove that the contractors - maybe it's a question for Mrs. Sharp if they evidence of the contractors causing the damage. That is the way the condition is worded and I think if we haye that evidence then the condition in my opinion gives us the authority to go to the developer and say Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 9 of 25 here is the eyidence your contractor has caused damage to this lane we have a condition on this plat that says your building permits must stop until its brought back up to pre deyelopment condition. Mrs. Sharp: I had also contacted Mr. Fred Burns ordinance officer and he had come out and he too had contacted the deyeloper stating certain things had to be done and that was on another area of the lane. So and I had brought in pictures earlier of the lane and of course you can go out there now and see the condition of the lane now from and another thing we are right where Ada County Highway District has there flood pond and their little driye in for maintenance. Of course they don't use it because they couldn't get the vehicles in there for maintenance because of the sharp turn that is required there so they park (inaudible) on Challis or they park right on Wingate Lane or until they have been told they haye to move their equipment. Ada County Highway District says they don't want to help maintain our agreement and 1913 says that is to be opened and to be maintained. We were also told that the deyeloper owns it he is given the easement rights to Ada County Highway District they haye it the easements. In talking with Ada County Engineers they say it's the owner that is responsible so here again it wouldn't be Ada County Highway District it would be the owner of the property. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Let me ask you a question Helen. Do you haye pictures of that lane condition before the developer came in? Mrs. Sharp: Oh I'm sure I do in fact there are probably some in the file. Corrie: Okay and then the pictures that we haye today. How does it compare with what you had before and afterwards they put the subdivision in. What kind of damage was done? To me, that is the easiest way to look at it. If it has been damaged by the contractor. Then they should put it back the way it was. Mrs. Sharp: Well like I say - another thing. Corrie: Was it black topped or? Sharp: No it's always been gravel. It's always been grayel. Corrie: Come on up. Mr. Sharp: We've added oil too and when Qwest put some utility line down there and they said they would do this. They would bring it back up and they did. It was absolutely like it should be. They came back and oiled it and they went by Ustick there where they have the payement there. They came back and did that again and it was absolutely like it should be. But you go out there now and it is Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 100125 not. And when they put the fence up on the west side of Wingate Lane they threw their metal posts right out on the easement there so people could run over there and I picked them up and put them up by the telephone pole and they have big rocks. There is a big rock out there still out there that I rolled back off the easement up against the fence there and there is other rocks there and they haye dips - there is dips where the pond is located and this way towards Challis there is dips in there where it sunk down I think where they put lines in there or something. It's hard to see Mayor Corrie from the pictures in the past you know unless you are a good photographer and everything to see what has actually happened. Some of that ruts is caused by just ordinary travel. We agree to that but we did go in there and have eight loads of road mix in there and Gary Rushman come in with a grater to bring that back up and it has been torn up so many times its hard to keep up with them. Corrie: I believe Mrs. de Weerd had a question. De Weerd: Go ahead. Nary: Who is the responsible party here for Packard Estates. This preliminary plat conditions were to be not adhered to who's responsible to go and fix it? Hawkins-Clark: Packard Estates LLC. Who are represented by Mr. Wurt Edmonds and Craig Groves. Corrie: Have they been approached to take care of this problem? Hawkins-Clark: I do not believe. Mr. Sharp: Excuse me, Fred Burns has been out there and he said yeah you do haye a problem. That's as far as we can get. Nary: Haye you folks talked with them. Mr. Sharp: Yeah and they say its your responsibility. Because we do have a Wingate Lane Association that we contribute road funds for to keep that up. But when that's out of the ordinary for the contractor, just like it states here, they should be out there repairing it and put it back to shape, In fact one of the questions out there -- they took the top of the irrigation box, not Qwest but one of the contactors somebody and rolled it up against the fence there and it stuck out into the easement and then they had one of the big equipment drag line or whateyer it is that they swiyeled the engine around so it stuck out in the easement and I think it was Mike from Qwest, he said I will move that they should not leave that like that. So he moved it. Corrie: How do you get into your property from Ustick, how are you getting in? Meridian City Pre Council February 11 , 2003 Page 110125 Mrs. Sharp: We go down - Mr. Sharp: That's our easement. Corrie: South, right. Mrs. Sharp: I was going to ask for another picture here. You can see right here is where the lane they have crossed here. That is Challis. The developer also said t hat he would gradually, because it was higher 0 n t he lane, gradually go down to Challis and then up. With one of the pictures you had there I wouldn't call it a gradual here. At least two feet that is hardly a gradual decline down into Challis a nd you can see it better 0 n this lower picture. 0 f course we h aye a tremendous hazard because with the traffic going across there you can't see until you are right there at Challis Road driving down Wingate going down heading north or south. No they just go down - you haye a slant here - right down in the sidewalk but in the street and its just scary it is so scary I tremble just thinking about it. But it was not a gradual as you c an see it's not a gradual d own to Challis Road. It was a two foot drop and about - but anyway we are not getting it done so. De Weerd: Do you want to grab that mike. Corrie: Take the mike with you. Nary: You can take it out of the stand. Corrie: That's good. thank you. Mr. Sharp: On the left hand side there, there was a ditch. That went down there and it was supposed to be coyered over because that was part of the easement and when they put that fence up there that was kind of a big dip in there and Mr. Peterson Iiyes in the house back oyer here. He put a lot of dirt in there to fill it up but it didn't really help all it really did was make a big mess there. What we are saying is just come in there with some grayel and a grater and bring that up along there. And right in here and a little further along where the turn into the pond there is another big dip where it sunk down in there and if you could just please go out and take a look at it. Mrs. Sharp: I mean it's kind of hard even if we took pictures we wouldn't know the depth of the rest. Mr. Sharp: You don't see it by pictures. Corrie: I was out there yesterday but I didn't go on the lane because it said private stay out of it. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 12 0125 Mrs. Sharp: You are the only one that can see. Corrie: But if I had your permission to take a look at it. Mrs. Sharp: You will be authorized to do so (inaudible). Corrie: It says priyate driye and there are signs up there a nd consequently I wasn't going to go back there. Until we had permission - Mrs. Sharp: Excuse me also trying to find out and I'Ye asked the Ada County Highway District and there has some been dispute about crossing a private easement is there a precedent however you want to pronounce it to say that they'ye gone across our priyate lane with their public road, which they weren't going to do either. Oh back to the gates, you said they are supposed to have gates across Challis are we going to get gates for pedestrian? And when they do have gates there is was kind of interesting there it was kind of interesting there was supposed to be pedestrian gates we had to step into the street to use the gate they weren't at the end of the sidewalk. But I am hoping we enforce that and get the gates across Challis. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess at this point to try and get some direction to this is if you can get a picture of Wingate Lane in the condition that you haye that you said you haye pictures of. Mrs. Sharp: Can you get an aerial photo? I can't. Corrie: Get what? Mrs. Sharp: An aerial photo. How else are you going to see it? De Weerd: Do you need pictures Brad or can you take the residents word that the condition that they need to bring it up to. What's written in our findings is very vague and it did give a sense of security that there road at least more then just the wear and tear will be put back into the condition that it should be and I think that's a reasonable condition. Then on the second issue with the fence we haye two contradictory conditions in the finding, either you can have staff approye a plan that doesn't look like it was during the public hearing or you can go with the other condition that says all fencing should be done. That's a second issue that I don't know if - does Council need to make that decision if staff makes that decision and then they haye a right to appeal to us if they don't like it. What direction do we want to leaye that and the Sharps with so that we can kind of bring some conclusion to this. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 13 of 25 Mrs. Sharp: Another thing too to think about between our lane, which is between Eagle for those that are not aware, is between Eagle Road and Locust Grove from our lane going west to Linder there is anywhere from five to seven private lanes. So these issues need to be settled now so that if some one else because they are going to deyelop off these lanes going west there needs to be some guidelines that they adhere to. Corrie: Well I think we need to have ACHD inyolved here too because we evidently we don't own the streets but who has the right of way like on Challis the Wingate Lane or Challis. Where does the stop signs go? That was in the letters that we had here and I'm trying to get some information from them as well. We don't have any authority on the priyate lane technically the streets belong to Ada County so we can handle the street part of it but we can't go onto the lane so I'm at a disadvantage here and who has right of way and then I can't figure out if they own did they buy the Wingate Lane if they went across it? They evidently owned that. Mrs. Sharp: The deyeloper. We were told that Ada County Highway District does not own they just get the right. Corrie: Right, they haye the easement right. So they had it approved to go across. Mrs. Sharp: From the deyeloper. Yes they got the easement right to go across it. Another thing I wanted to ask I don't know if I talked to Brad about this. What kind of guidelines does City of Meridian have for priyate roads? Then do you abide by Ada County or Boise? Corrie: We are not Boise. We are in Ada County. Mrs. Sharp: Okay then the guideline is kind of interesting for those who are not aware of it. A private lane cannot have a public road on both ends. Corrie: It would take your private lane out. Mrs. Sharp: Ustick Road and then we have Challis so from there it can't be a priyate lane. Corrie: That would be a legal issue I don't know. Mrs. Sharp: I've been down to the city engineers I don't know how many times talking to them and we read diagrams that show that. So the question is what guidelines does the City of Meridian use? Do they abide by this? The only thing then that would be private would be from Challis down to our property and once they cross Meadowgrass the only part would be from Meadowgrass down to our Meridian City Pre Council February 11. 2003 Page 14 of 25 property. So I think the City of Meridian with all these priyate lanes might want to stop and think about some of these issues. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I think that's not really an issue for us Mrs. Sharp but I think what we need to do is I don't really think we need to ask Packard Estates L.L.C. people to adhere. It sounds to me that your allegation is that they either work with you and your neighbors 0 n meeting these conditions 0 f t he satisfaction of t he planning and zoning department or we look at whatever the process is necessary in regards to these preliminary plat conditions that are out of compliance and how we get them to get into compliance. Mrs. Sharp: They made the ordinances they should enforce them. We shouldn't have to. Nary: They are not ordinances they are conditions. Mrs. Sharp: Well conditions. Nary: And that's what I'm telling you ma'am I agree with you. I agree with you we are supposed to enforce them. What I'm saying is there seems to be a dispute between what you think is being done and what Mr. Hawkins-Clark thinks being done. So we need the Planning and Zoning department to determine whether or not there is enough to go forward and what the process would be to enforce these conditions on the deyeloper, it is the City's responsibility to do that so you were correct. So that's what needs to be done instead of spending another two years talking about it we need to enforce these preliminary plat conditions by whateyer process is necessary to do that and allow the developers an opportunity to be heard as to why they think they are in compliance and if they are not what's our remedy whether its to simply not allow any more building permits on this phase until they are in compliance to the satisfaction of Planning and Zoning the problem I think that you are haying is that you and Planning and Zoning don't agree as to how far out of compliance they are and that's not something at least today we can mediate t hat until its heard by Planning and Zoning and the Commission and then it comes here. Mrs. Sharp: Well would Planning and Zoning then contact the developer and say Sharps and the residents on Wingate Lane. It just so happens that we are the yocal ones like I say they haye written numerous letters and like one lady said why waste the time and stationary, nobody is even going to answer the questions on a letter that have been presented to Council and to Planning and Zoning. So if are saying okay we don't think you haye abided by these wouldn't the Planning and Zoning then haye to contact the deyeloper and say hey listen we'ye got Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 15 of 25 some complaints here that you hayen't done. Okay then - thank you for your time. Corrie: Thank you. Okay Brad we need to do some things here back and forth and lets get it put together and see where we go - Item4. Discussion of Deferred Comp Plan with Waddell & Reed: Corrie: Doug Beehler deferred camp plan. Beehler: Good evening. Basically as we talked earlier I just wanted to make a couple of points on the deferred camp plan and some of the progress that has been made on it and in my letter that I sent to you it pretty much explained that. A couple of things I wanted to make you completely aware of is our plan which has been with the City of Meridian since 1997 has always been in compliance. As our tax laws change our plans are up to date and one of the concerns I know is the administratiye responsibilities of - the plan used to be on the shoulders of the City and that has changed with the tax law changes and things and now what Ellen Reed has been making the appropriate reports and things like that as far as 1099 reports for people that have departed from that plan or whatever and that has been done. And also I wanted to make sure I has an opportunity to meet with the employees as far as presenting the Waddell and Reed plan as a option to the employees for deferred compo So those are the two main issues that I had and answer any questions that you may haye about the compliance of the Waddell and Reed plan and because it was a non qualified plan it always takes a back seat in the eyes of the IRS as far as some of the things that get done with it but with the tax law changes our plan has always been in compliance with that and has we update our documents and things like that and I think I gave Janice our latest yersion of it which was just printed up in January. Basically internally they are always compliant with that. Those are the issue that I wanted Council to be aware of and answer any questions you have about the plan itself. Corrie: Okay I had talked to you a couple times Doug and what the committee is looking at right now. We don't want to be trustees. Beehler: Correct I understand that. Corrie: And I - for obvious reasons that you are well aware of. What we are doing now is investigating where we go and how we do it and if we want to look at independent administrators would that be the best way or each if we haye two three or whatever that the administrators that sell the plan do it for us. We don't know yet. So that's what we are looking at right now, we are not making any decisions we haven't made any but wed 0 need to i nyestigate a II t hat a nd so that's where we are coming from right now. So Council do you have any questions and what Doug has said? Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 160125 Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: It's probably my own ignorance and Doug or Janice can answer this but I guess I was unclear from what action we took in January and then what your letter stated your concerns were and then where we are today. Beehler: I guess where some of the confusion is the city was concerned about not haYing a compliant plan in p lace. The Waddell and Reed plan as always been in compliance and I guess the other plan you had, the other provider did not haye an official document or anything. Ours has been in place and we always update that. So technically when you sign the agreement with the other company you already had a compliant plan in place at that time. So what I feel is I didn't get a chance to do was get a chance to meet with the committee and explain all those issues and all the time thinking you had those documents on file that we sent back in 97 but I also want to - I guess one point is you had a plan in place that you didn't need to rush and sign another one with the other company that was the issue and I know there was some concerns about the other plan as far as they didn't have the proper documentation and those sorts of things but I just wanted you to be aware that we've always had the proper documentation. Nary: Where are we now. Corrie: Janice do we haye Waddell Reeds plan in hand? J. Smith: Yes we haye the one that we received. We received one in January. Corrie: Of this year? J. Smith: Of this year. Corrie: Okay. Beehler: And that was just an updated yersion of what you had before. J. Smith: That was the 24th of January we receiyed it. Corrie: We had not had one before that time. J. Smith: We had an old one but a few of our members that had a meeting with our city attorney last week and Phil Peterson which gave us a better understanding of being under compliance but when I'm talking federal compliance I get a little scared because I know you have to deal with the IRS and I did have to file a 945 on one employee and had to do a 1099R because he withdrew his money but it was not for Waddell Reed it was for American Funds. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 17 of 25 Corrie: Okay. Where we are now is, we are still inyestigating the plans and what administrations and that. Pauline. Skeggs: Council members and Mayor I just wanted to add. At the time that we felt we didn't have a plan in compliance we didn't have a copy of the Waddell Reed plan and we needed to make a decision to moye forward in order to be in compliance. That was the answer to your question Councilman Nary. We didn't have that plan document in hand therefore we felt we weren't in compliance. We didn't get that plan document until January and we had already made that decision in December because we wanted to be in compliance. Beehler: Councilman Nary, the actual plan was signed in 97 and at that time the plan documents were here because -- what you do is you sign the documents and they tear them out of the book and you keep the book and I'm not sue what happened to them at that point but we - on those types pf plans the adoption is part of the plan and the book stays here and I don't know what happened to that back in 1997. But the adoption agreement is part of the plan document itself. So I'm not sure - (End of side one 6:20 p.m.) Beehler: -- all this time I thought you were just looking for the updated version. Which had been done and the final print was in January. So I thought all you needed was just the final print I thought you had the original plan since 1997. Skeggs: Councilman Nary and Council members and Mayor. Janice did find the plan document in the original with the signature. So and this one is dated August of 1994. The law changed in 96. So this one wasn't in compliance with the law. When Doug brought in the new one he gaye me a copy and it was 97. I had asked him to bring me the copy that was in place when the document was signed and the one he brought in was dated 1997, but the one in the actual plan was dated August of 940n your plan book. Beehler: Yeah that one that you have is dated 97. Our home office dug up an old copy of that one so that's - they asked me when it was signed and I said 97 so that must be why they did that. They didn't keep a copy of the original one because as they get updated they keep the new one on file, they don't keep the old ones. So eYidently they didn't go back far enough Pauline then when they signed that. Okay. Corrie: Okay. Beehler: I brought the one that they sent me. So. Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Meddian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 18 of 25 Corrie: Mr. Nichols. Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Council, just a couple points. One is although there was a document signed with VALlC for a 457 plan. There have been no deductions from anybody's paychecks to go into the VALlC plan. So we are not faced with having three plans. What we haye is the Solomon and Smith Barney 457 accounts if you will the one under the old resolution that set up trustees and the rest of it and we haye the Waddell Reed plan. Staff is looking into for your reyiew. What would it cost to have an independent plan administrator? What would the benefits and burdens of that be? Usually with those independent plans there is a cost associated with developing the plan, drawing up the plan document and secondly administering the plan. So there is a cost. It may not be a correct term but I call it a captive plan like the Waddell Reed plan or a VALlC plan, there is no out of pocket costs to the city because the brokerage or insurance company whoever puts together the plan. They make their money off the transactions that occur as people make their investments. So there is no out of pocket costs to the city, however, that will be reYiewed with you by staff in a report as to what their recommendation is. The key thing to know is we were worried about being out of compliance but the rule is until you get the letter from the IRS that says you are not in compliance you are in compliance until you get the letter. So staff was working hard to try and fix a problem that needed to be fixed but we didn't haye that looming heavy hand that (inaudible) from the service. And so that is w here we are at. Staff is working to review w hat the options are and see what needs to be done, if any. And then to just flavor it a little more I saw a report this week that congress is entertaining some changes in the tax law that would roll the 401 's into 403's and the 457's into one thing so stay tuned. Beehler: The IRS is our friends that are trying to help. Corrie: From the government I'm here to help you. Okay again reiterate that nobody is hurt here and we are not trying to kick you out we are just trying to see what's the best for the city and I think I haye an idea a way we'll go but we want to put it together as a package give it to Council, let them look at it and they can make that determination of how they want to do that whether its an independent administrator or if each one indiYidually wants to do it so the costs will be involyed here and we will look at that as well. Beehler: And Mr. Nichols is right we have no administrative costs on our end. Corrie: Any other questions? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 19 of 25 De Weerd: I guess so I assume this is going to the benefits committee and that committee will make a recommendation. Corrie: That's correct. De Weerd: Okay. Corrie: Thanks Doug. Beehler: Thank you very much. ItemS. Revenue Task Force - Objectives and Members: Corrie: Next one is reyenue task force objectiyes and members. I think we have a list of members or potential members here of a committee that would be looking into the mill I eyy a long with some 0 ther ideas 0 n the 19th 0 f February meeting. I guess we have a couple of them hayen't yet - Ron Steller is Blue Cross. Do we have any others that have not been filled? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: With the BCA I neyer received a name back from them. All these people haye been contacted about the 19th, which is how we got all the address information, and so they're interested and ready to go. Corrie: I have one other name that the city believe it or not is my son that wanted to get on this committee because he wanted to see what he could do as far as the neighborhoods around there and how they thought. I would add that name if we didn't haye any problems here, which I didn't see any conflict but he would like to be there. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: When we talked about that I thought I had talked with all the Council and the feeling was we want this to be as un biased as possible in perceptions. I don't think -- Gregg definitely has his own thoughts but we really need to be conscientious of having a bias already set going into it. Anyone that would be associated with anyone of us up here would haye that bias perception. I don't know what your feelings are 0 n t hat. I f w e want to have the impression 0 fa clean recommendation coming back from this committee that we just need to be yery careful with who we put on there so that the perceptions not there that its Meridian City Pre Council February 11. 2003 Page 20 of 25 already loaded with the end result people think we want to see. Not that we're going into this with any preconceiyed notions. We just want an unbiased report back but I guess that would be my concern. Corrie: Well knowing him it's not going to be biased for me. De Weerd: I know --. . Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: What little bit I know of your son Gregg I haye a lot of respect for his thoughts and opinions. I guess I would concur though with Council Member de Weerd that part of what we are trying to do because of the difficulty we've had with this particular issue is making sure that the publics perception is that we have tried to bring forth something that none of us up here haye tried to drive in any particular way. I would welcome that - I mean this is a committee that is subject to all the public meeting requirements and I would hope that Gregg Corrie would participate actiyely in this committee in proYiding input and providing his thoughts and other people that he works with and deals with because I think he would be inyaluable. Again I think it's a perception I don't necessarily think it's a reality that there is a concern about some bias I just think its something that we should probably be cautious of but I would really welcome his input to this group because I think he would be a yery big help for them. Corrie: I do too. Like I say my influence and him - there is nothing on that. Nary: We all are parents. Corrie: And I don't haye any objection to Ryan Riley on there either under the circumstances you haye to be careful there too. Is he your campaign manager? De Weerd: Yes. I'm not related to him. Corrie: It's not related but there is still having a pre-concept of what something might look like and I don't want that to fall on your shoulders either. If the Council doesn't have any problem with the Ryan Riley on there I don't see any concept of being inyolved there anyway. I don't see where Gregg would but if one does then the other will too so whicheyer the Council. McCandless: If we are concerned about that then I would be concerned about Shawn Wardle because he is on the Parks Commission so - Nary: Well there is two representatives from the Parks Commission, that was the Meridian City Pre Council February 11 , 2003 Page 21 of 25 De Weerd: We asked for representatives. McCandless: But it's the same concept. Corrie: Well if you don't haye any problem - he said he would like to work on it that's fine with me. It's just up to the Council and if they want to do it that's fine. Perception will always be there no matter who you haye on it and its just will they do a good job and of course, you know what my perception is already and what things should be done. I guess I'll ask the question does it make a difference whether Gregg is on there or not? McCandless: My only concern is if we wouldn't allow Gregg to be on it then we shouldn't allow Shaun on it either or even Riley because of their association. Nary: I guess the intent was to haye some Parks Commission people participate in the committee whether we have Shaun or Ryan Riley or somebody else from the Parks Commission. The intent was to haye somebody from the Parks Commission on it. McCandless: And that is okay I have no objection to that. I just have an objection to if that is the reason for keeping Gregg off then we should look at some of the other names too. Corrie: Do you haye any problem with it? De Weerd: I only brought it up because that was the feedback I got from Council so don't kill the messenger. Corrie: I'm just saying do you have a problem with him on there? That's all I'm saying. De Weerd: I don't have a problem because I know he is not influenced by you, but again I would also just lend back to the perception. I know that this is going to be such a temperamental topic that we just need to go over board. If we want to go overboard then and there is an issue with Ryan I think he would happily step off if people thought he had a conflict. Corrie: I don't think you need to step off and I think Gregg can work on it. Who cares? This is a committee for the Council to look at what the public is thinking. This is supposed to be a (inaudible) I mean my State of the City said that's what its going to be. Whose on it doesn't make any difference if they all get together and say this is what is out there the people at this point really don't feel its necessary or they do. We are trying to get the publics - the way I look at it we are trying to get the public to tell us what they think. They will tell us so I really Meridian City Pre CounCil February 11, 2003 Pege 22 of 25 don't see any problem with him (inaudible) and she doesn't either so if you don't see a problem then lets --. Nary: Let's go for it I think its fine. Lets do that. It's a large group of people they are going to need as much assistance and input as they can get. Corrie: Okay then any other names that anybody would like to add? Nary: I was just going to ask on the Daryll McRoberts is that the right address? Is it Jamaica or is there a Jamaca Street in Meridian or is it Jamaica Street, which is oyer in Meridian Greens. De Weerd: That's only the spelling that was on the list Anita gave me. Nary: There is a zillion new streets here but I know there is a Jamaica Street over in Meridian Greens so I just want to make sure. De Weerd: I don't know I just copied the information that she gaye me. Nary: We just want to make sure we ask somebody and we don't send it to the wrong place but other then that. No these are just fine. Mendian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 23 of 25 Nary: That's a tough one? De Weerd: Twist your arms. Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: Either that or you know I really think its important to show the commitment of this Council and its not an additional problem since this meeting needs to be published or noticed anyway to haye a quorum there just as long as we post it and do the appropriate noticing. Corrie: I agree with Tammy and I think it would be nice if we were there, show our support, and tell them what you want them to do. Then they can go out and do their own thing about this but - De Weerd: Not that I didn't want you to haye an out but- Nary: So you were showing us the door and now you shut it back in our face. Corrie: S it in for t he City Clerk. We can 0 n t he 19th maybe notice t hat a s a Special Meeting at 7:00 (inaudible). McCandless: So we just lost our option. Corrie: I'm sorry dear. Nary: Yes you lost your option. Corrie: So the 19th of February at seyen o'clock we will be here and greet this people and wish them well and go from there. Anything else? Nichols: Mr. Mayor. You can check with the Clerk but if your purpose of your meeting is rather short and if their meeting is going to continue after yours then you can have a joint meeting. Then adjourn yours and you can go home and let them do their work. If that's what you wish to do. Nary: I think that is exactly what we wish to do. Corrie: No influence of the Council just that we are all behind them and we would like to see them give us some answers as best they can by a certain date and this is what we want them to do and folks you have the meeting. That's what we will do thank you. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 24 of 25 Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess one last question. Stacy put together a packet of information to present to this committee did anyone have any comments on that. Things that they would like to see added, or is this going to be a good starting point? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I think it was a yery good starting point I meant to reply to the email but I think it is a good place to start and at least a good avenue to assist them in at least filling out where they begin -- obyiously they are going to want more information. They are going to find ways to gather that and how they are going to do that. I think it's a starting point. McCandless: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. McCandless. McCandless: Just so - I have no problems whatsoever with our Park Commission people on there. I only brought it up because you wanted an unbiased committee and I would say that they might be a little biased themselyes but I haye no objection. Corrie: But we can make that understanding that no bias is nothing. They start from the bottom and work their way up and if they get information form the city and people out there will talk belieye me I know they will talk to them because my phone has been ringing off the hook and I don't wait till you get here. De Weerd: You know I just think that eyeryone is going to haye a bias. You haye your representative from the business community and you have your representatiYe from the deyelopment corporation. There is always going to be the potential for someone that has a strong preference. McCandless: I don't have any problem with it. It was just the situation as it was when I brought that up. Corrie: You show me a person that has no bias and I will show you a grayesite. Okay with that being said anything else. De Weerd: Can I quote you? Corrie: I'm not a quoter. Since that is that last of our Pre-Council Agenda and we have about 15 minutes to go to the regular meeting I will entertain a motion to adjourn. Meridian City Pre Council February 11, 2003 Page 25 of 25 De Weerd: So moved. McCandless: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and second to adjourn the pre council meeting all those in fayor say aye. All ayes. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:40 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) ATTESTED: 3 I 4- I tJ 3 \\\11111111//11/ \\\ M: /11 DATE ,,\\\\ -{ OF ,cR!I);"", .......... ~ '".~t ,'/ ...... (j G'''oF/,.j -' :.'~ 'l " .f'OI~r '). (:..' "" , ,^ ~ ~ ~ "0-::' ~- RKSEAL ~ =- ~ f':) ~ ~ ?: ~/~ ,,~ 2 -:.~ ~ -">'7 lS1' . j.J $ '0,;: .., n- ~~ ,$' :;'1 -U11tl.r"r:"V' \V ,'\.' "'1; "VA>> l I \\\\ '1JJlifsHu.~n'l\\\'