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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJuly 19, 2007 P&Z Minutes Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 39 of 83 Newton-Huckabay: Oh. Okay. And the -- sorry, I can't find that one. On page ten, bullet point five that starts with the public stub street Alaska Street in Bear Creek Subdivision, along the south property boundary shall be extended as a nonpublic street into this site. I would like that to be changed to not extended as a public street -- or a nonpublic street and strike the rest of that comment and in lieu of that to have an emergency access cut through only and pedestrian path. End of motion. Moe: Second. Rohm: It's been moved and seconded that we forward onto City Council recommending approval of -- I can't even remember which one we are on. AZ 07-009, to include the staff report and the aforementioned modifications. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same sign? Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Rohm: Folks, thank you for coming in. At this time we are going to take a ten minute break. (Recess. ) Item 7: Continued Public Hearing from June 21, 2007: RZ 07-012 Request for Rezone of approximately 22.7 acres from an R-8 to a C-G zone for Valley Shepherd on Meridian by the Valley Shepherd Church of the Nazarene - 150 West Maestra: Rohm: At this time we'd like to continue the regularly scheduled meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission and I'd like to begin by opening the Public Hearing -- continued Public Hearing from June 21st, 2007, of RZ 07-012, related to Valley Shepherd on Meridian and begin with the staff report. Hess: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. The application before you is a request for rezoning of approximately 22.7 acres of property currently zoned R- 8 to C-G and that's general retail and service commercial. The request is prompted by the applicant's desire to construct electric signage on site, which is not principally permitted within the existing R-8 zone. The Valley Shepherd property is located on the west side of South Meridian Road approximately at the half mile mark between Overland and Victory. As you can see, it's the large property here. It is currently under construction for a church. To the north and west is the existing Bear Creek development. We will go back to the zoning map here. Bear Creek over here. To the east residential properties within the county still. A little bit of light office there in the middle, though. And to the south Strada Bellissima, also part residential and some light office along the highway there. The property is actually designated public/quasi-public on the Comprehensive Plan future land use map. Public/quasi-public areas are designed to preserve and protect existing private and municipal, state and federal land. This category also includes churches and public lands. Staff believes that the Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 40 of 83 requested C-G zoning designation for this property, for a church, complies with the intent of the Comprehensive Plan for the existing and future use of the property. Additionally, as the current use of the property is not proposed to change and the church use in the proposed C-G zone complies with the UDC, staff believes that rezoning the subject property from R-8 to C-G is justifiable. However, staff recognizes the surrounding residential uses and believes that a development agreement is necessary to insure that this property is utilized in a fashion that is consistent with the plan and does not negatively impact the nearby property. Staff believes that the development agreement should restrict the uses allowed on this property to only the church and ancillary church celebrative and recreational activities. This means that despite what the zoning may indicate on the map, no retail or service uses would be permitted on this property whatsoever. If in the future the current property owner wishes to develop this site for commercial purpose, this would require more public hearings before Planning and Zoning and the City Council and at that time adjacent neighbors would be notified of such and would have opportunity to again participate in a hearing process long before any commercial uses could even be approved by the city. Staff is recommending approval of the rezone request subject to this development agreement and the stipulations as previously stated. And that is all staff has, unless the Commission has questions. Rohm: Thank you very much. That was well put. Any questions of staff? Would the applicant like to come forward, please. Hoaglun: Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. My name is Brad Hoaglun, I reside at 2470 West Tressel Drive here in Meridian. I'm a board member and a building committee member of the Valley Shepherd Church of the Nazarene and here to request the rezone from R-8 to C-G. For those of you not familiar with Valley Shepherd, we are located right across the street. Been in that location -- just had our 90th anniversary here this fall and due to space constraints and the growth downtown, we are moving out to the property on South Meridian Road and we are 80 percent complete on that facility and as part of this project we are moving forward looking to the next steps for that building phase, we were looking into signage and came to the realization and with planning staff that under the current zoning designation signage would be non -- limited or nonexistent under R-8 and with that being a major highway out there, we were looking at some type of electronic signage and C-G is the only zoning that fits that category. So, we are not looking to build a commercial facility, we have got a 46,000 square foot facility there that if you go by there you see it, you have a good idea of what it is, but because of that sign issue, we were looking at the C- G zoning. We also have a small park that's being developed that we want to have like Fourth of July picnics, those types of things, so that a zoning change would be necessary there as well from R-8, so we don't have to get a permit every time we want to have some sort of activity out there. So, we are seeking a change in the zoning to accommodate some sort of signage out there and to allow normal church activities on the property. We do not have any planned changes in the use. Staff has recommended that there be an addendum to the development agreement and we agree to that. There is -- if you want to go back -- probably the aerial view, I think, might be Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 41 of 83 the best or maybe the next one, the site -- site plan. Zoning Map. Yeah. Here we go. We do have some vacant land here and here and we are looking at seeding that and you mayor may not have heard of a program called Upward Soccer for kids to participate in soccer activities and those type of things. Those are things that we are looking at down the road. You know, ten years from now, whatever the time frame may be, we don't know what will happen with that property, but we think it's appropriate that if we do want to build something there, we come back before the city fathers and talk to the neighbors and seek permission before anything is done. But there has been no discussion of that. We are concentrating on completing this facility right here, developing the park area right there, and finishing things off and we are very pleased with how it looks. And I know C-G -- there was a lot of talk in the previous hearing about big boxes and everything. That is one thing we didn't want our place of worship to look like. This was meant to look like a place of worship and we are very pleased with how it's looking and if you have that opportunity to go out there and see it, we would be more than happy to drive by. I know there was some issues about traffic and different things early on in the process and this is well over a year ago. We had sought working with ACHO and ITO about putting in a collector and connecting into the Bear Creek Subdivision and having a light. There was resistance from neighbors along here about having that street there. So, it ended up coming out here. So, those are the types of things that we worked long and hard with neighbors to try to do different things, so the C-G is primarily about one thing and that's about some sort of electronic sign and, of course, if we decide what we are going to do, it would have to fit within the parameters of what the City of Meridian requires and, of course, we want it to fit within what the building looks like and not be intrusive at all and also improve zoning to allow normal church activities on the property. So, with that, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, I stand for questions. Rohm: Thanks very much. Any questions of this applicant? O'Brien: I have one, Mr. Chairman. Rohm: Commissioner O'Brien. O'Brien: So, given the right-in, right-out traffic on Meridian Road there, it seems like it's going to be quite a bottleneck there. I think it's Victory, is it? Hoaglun: Yeah. Victory is down here. O'Brien: Okay. Hoaglun: There is a left turn and right turn lanes coming out of Strada Bellissima and Maestra there. O'Brien: And that's the only entrance next to -- coming out that one side? Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 42 of 83 Hoaglun: There is a connector or a street that runs through here and, then, it curves around and I think comes out on Victory right about somewhere in here and there is -- thank you. Right through here. O'Brien: Okay. Hoaglun: So, that does connect out. But the main entrance and exit is planned to be here, like I said. There is a left turn lane and a right turn lane to accommodate traffic both ways. O'Brien: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair? Mr. Hoaglun -- so the collector didn't go in or -- Hoaglun: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Mr. Chairman. No. There is no street. Right here we were looking at putting in the street to come out and come wrap around and this is about well over a year ago in discussions with ITD and ACHD and that did not fly, so-- Newton-Huckabay: Thank you. Hoaglun: And there might have -- and I know we even discussed right turn only, right turn only, and coming around into the parking facility, but, again, their folks didn't want street -- or headlights coming into their backyards, so -- Moe: Mr. Chairman? Rohm: Commissioner Moe. Moe: In your application you talk about the electronic sign and recreational activities. Hoaglun: Correct. Moe: What does recreational activities mean? Hoaglun: Sure. Two things I mentioned, you know, we have Fourth of July picnic, those types of things, but also if we develop those areas into grass, open space, Upward Soccer is something that we have talked about, it's a program for young kids of various ages to participate in soccer programs. You know, being a member of the community and having space, if the parks department wants to utilize our space out there, I mean that is something we are open to considering and participating in. You know, as a member of the community if we have got the space -- and park space is always at a premium in this growing community, that's something we are willing to do. So, having a change in zoning to accommodate that usage, we'd like to do that. Rohm: Thanks very much. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 43 of 83 Hoaglun: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. Rohm: Shawna Gardner. Brad Hoaglun. Oh, excuse me. J'm sorry. Kathleen James. James: Hello, Commissioners. I'm Kathleen James. 2825 South Garibaldi, Meridian. I'm here representing myself, but I also believe that most of my views are also the views of many in my subdivision of Strada Bellissima. I am here opposing the church rezone. The city planners premised their recommendation to you subject to a necessary development agreement and in the belief that, one, the rezone doesn't violate the intent of the Comprehensive Plan and, two, that it is reasonably compatible with the surrounding zoning. I disagree with their assertions. Yes, there is commercial zoning across the east side of Meridian Road and a small amount of L-O, office zoning, but the vast majority of the property actually surrounding the property is residential. It's residential to the south, to the west, and to the north. If rezoning is guided by the intensity of existing use, Le., residential use, then, a change would not comply with the comprehensive code, Le., existing law. The CP also states that it must insure property values aren't adversely affected. A change from R-8 to C-G would certainly affect property values, if for no other reason than the underlying zoning would be commercial. The church may not be changing its use now, but what about the future? Circumstances change. What if the church wished to sell off a part or all of the property? Staff states that C-G zoning is okay, but only if a development agreement goes with it that calls for no further development in a commercial zone. That's senseless. The city planners are going too far to try to accommodate the church. There is no point in having C-Z zoning -- C-G zoning if no commercial operations are allowed now or anticipated in the future. It's plainly bad planning and sets a bad precedent for future rezoning on this particular property, as well as other rezones that come before the city. The church says that it needs the C-G zoning for signage. If granted, the church would able to have center signs up to 200 square feet and 35 feet high, together with direct and indirect illumination. I assume that that could be day and night. And all this as close as five feet from the church's side property lines. Now, that isn't what they have proposed, but it would be what they would be allowed. If that wouldn't impact property values to nearby houses, I don't know what would. This rezone request violates existing law and is very poor long-term planning. It leaves the property basically in limbo for the future. Therefore, I believe it should be denied. Thank you. Are there any questions? Rohm: Thank you very much. Jim Kouril, would you like to come up, please. Kouril: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, staff. Thank you once again. I will -- Rohm: You need to state your name and address again for the record. Kouril: Yes. My name is Jim Kouril. Spelling K-o-u-r-i-1. Home address 374 West Davenport Court, Meridian, Idaho. 83642. Just so you're aware, we are going to -- I will go through the first part of my presentation quickly. Again, I represent the people on the petition that you have received earlier. Much of my presentation is similar to what I Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 44 of 83 presented to you earlier, because it is a similar issue. And you would be seeing the next slide, which would be a little bit of background about the petition. Thanks, Amanda. Again, the -- a similar slide, 236 signatures. What's unique about this situation is that myself and others collaborated with the people that live in Strada Bellissima, because the issue of the church does affect Bear Creek and Strada Bellissima at the same time. Strada Bellissima, to refresh you, nice homes, 300,000 dollar homes, up to 500,000 dollar homes. Not very many homes in the area at this current time. About 64. Nice street plantings. Trees. A tot park. Just a nice place to drive into and see. Bear Creek, similar type of neighborhood, except a little bit more mature with trees. Again, nice homes, 300,000 dollars homes to 900,00 dollars. Lighted streets. Walkways. Street entrances that have plantings. Another point of view on the background of this situation. Again, the commercial C-G zone, if granted to the church, they would be allowed in that zoning, whether or not they have an agreement-- if they have an agreement, they could still come back to the City Council and say, hey, you allowed us to change our zoning to a C-G, therefore, we have decided to sell off a parcel of our property now, since it's already a C-G zone, why not let them put a 200,000 square foot building in there, a building with high walls. It's surrounded by Bear Creek and it's surrounded by Strada Bellissima, both low to medium density residential neighborhoods. Same issues apply. Visual. Noise. Traffic. Again, I'll just refresh your memory, I mean this is straight from the city. Redevelopment of this type of area is to be guided by the intensity of the existing use, the underlying zoning of the property, the surrounding land uses, the location of the property and the transportation issues associated with the proposed development of this property. And all of those are key and unique to this proposal on this C-G zone. No transitional zone with the church. If they are allowed to rezone all that property to C-G, again, there is transitional zone separating the neighborhoods. The example showing some transitional zoning near Strada Bellissima that's currently there and it's just south of where the proposed property is. So, not one of these single residents would have any buffer or protection with a transitional zone if that's allowed to be a C-G zoning. What's important in this example is this is a transitional zone, which is directly south of Strada Bellissima. There is not one to the north, which is an issue in this situation. This is across the street from the Strada Bellissima, Bear Creek area, protecting Meridian Greens. We are asking that the city or the Commission also require that transitional zones be established as buffers between commercial and residential uses. And, again, this is straight out of the city's own action item. It's not something that I'm sitting here making up, it's some that the city has created. Vehicular traffic. Commissioner O'Brien started to get into this issue and I'm going to cover it with you, because there are no protected outlets to primary roads. Traffic will travel up Alfani Way through Bellissima Strada to Victory to access Meridian Road, creating congestion on Victory and Alfani. Alfani Way is not a collector road, it is not designed for high volume traffic. It is a subdivision road with homes located on either side and kids that play in the street. The church property and what they want to rezone is marked in yellow. You can see that coming -- this road here is this road in this area. So, if you work with me on this, this is the church property. The road will come right down here and dump right into Strada Bellissima, traffic can continue straight down a residential neighborhood road, which depicted right above you right there, or it can come out into part what is the C-N zoning that the city has provided, Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 45 of 83 which I believe was referred to earlier as some type of L-O or office-type zoning, which I'm unfamiliar with. In consideration we are asking that you only allow it to be a commercial N or lower zoning. We are asking that you protect the residents of Bear Creek and Strada Bellissima in keeping traffic, which would be commercial traffic if it's a commercial zone, out of our neighborhoods and we are asking that you communicate this same issue to the Ada County Highway District. Because of having a commercial zone butting up against residential neighborhoods, home values will decrease. You can see photographs of the nice homes in the area. Increased traffic. Increased noise. Visual pollution related to commercial zoning will negatively affect our values. We are asking that in order for us to maintain property values, you not allow it to become a C-G zone. And, again, Meridian's Comprehensive Plan -- and I know I keep harping on it, but it's a plan that the city's come up with and I ask that we stick to it. And that is use some guidance, take into consideration the adjacent land and permit only a commercial N zone, which I believe was demonstrated earlier as a purple zoning, which is an office- type zoning. Again, the commercial zoning, increased noise from delivery, loud speakers, back-up alarms, drive-thru facilities. And I want to make it a point, too, that I understand that the church came up and said they wanted to rezone for a sign and I'll cover that at the end of what -- a proposal, if that is all they want to do, then, I think there is a much better way to achieve that than just a C-G zone. Again, in consideration with the Meridian's Comprehensive Plan, only allowed to become a commercial N zone. We are going to zip through these real quick. And the reason I'm touching on all of these is because this is what a C-G zone is. Regardless if somebody says they want to put a sign there or there is some agreement if they are going to further development, a C-G zone can be ugly. Go ahead to the next one, please. We have covered screening and we would recommend that if they do become a C-G zone, that there be some type of adequate screening. But I don't think it's going to come to that. Again, only allow the commercial N zone, which is similar to the property surrounding Strada Bellissima right now, the office buildings. I jotted a couple of notes down in summary, but we do ask that you give careful consideration to the information that has been presented tonight. One thing that I have found very peculiar was that the city's own future land use map designated that property as public or quasi-public and the staff report says that doesn't exist and I guess I'm trying to understand why it went from a public/quasi-public to an R- 8 and now it wants -- they want to go from an R-8 to a commercial C-G zone, which is the highest zone. I don't think they need to become a C-G zone to have grass soccer fields. I think you become a C-G zone to put a big building there. Why not make the grass soccer fields, keep it as the residential. In speaking with staff, I was told that because of the sign they have to become a C-G zone and I looked at the picture of this sign and I admit I'm not that familiar with the ordinance, but to me that sign didn't look very big. It didn't look like that sign fit into a C-G zone and I could be mistaken. But what I would recommend is that they stay the current zoning that they are at, that they obtain a Conditional Use Permit for the sign, that -- or a smaller sign should be used that would fit a smaller type zoning and that maybe the city considers what to do with the situations like this when they come up in the future, because, quite honestly, we are taking time to discuss a zoning change for a sign, if that's all they want to do, and I think that we need to think outside the box and come up with a better solution to signage. I would recommend that the issue of Conditional Use Permit where they go about getting Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 46 of 83 it that way, that the zoning not be changed to the highest commercial zone and I stand for questions. Rohm: Thank you very much. Any questions of this individual? Newton-Huckabay: I have none at this time. Rohm: Thank you. Deborah Ross. Ross: Yeah. My concerns -- Rohm: Please state your name and -- Ross: Oh. My name is Deborah Ross. I live at 2835 South Alfani Road and it's just the second house, which I can see right there from my porch. I was also concerned about, you know, the sign itself, you know, from my view for one thing, but as far as the commercial, I am concerned. The park is right there on Alfani. All the kids, you know, in that area will play right there. I have a lot of children over at my house. I let them play down there, we will go back and forth. They will run home -- you know, run to my house and get a drink. I wouldn't have that freedom. I'm not even sure about -- I was told that on Maestra it was going to be a right-in and a right-out. So, I'm already concerned about -- I don't know how many members are going to be acquainted with that church, but I'm already concerned with the traffic already. I don't know, 500 cars coming in and out, if it's a right-in and a right-out already, and, then, to be commercial on top of that, the hours -- I mean our houses are right there. It's not like it's the back of our house, it's the front. It's access right to our houses. I'm concerned with crime. I'm concerned with accidents and just all that -- that traffic mainly and all that's going to bring. Rohm: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to testify on this application? Please come forward. Wheeler: Hi. I'm Darlene Wheeler and I'm at 2857 South Alfani. The one thing that hasn't been clearly pointed out -- and I will try and do this -- is that South Alfani -- right now the only way that -- Alfani is this road right here and right now, even if this corner becomes a soccer field or any kind of field area that is used by a large group of people, it is -- the only way out is going to be down Alfani, out here to Victory Road and that is going to cause an extreme amount of traffic coming through this housing area. The one area that has been referred to in the previous presentations as the tot play lot is right here on this corner. So, any traffic that is incurred by whatever -- the church or the soccer fields are going on here, will come through this street to come to Victory where the traffic light is to make it easier and safer to get out onto Meridian Road. And so any kind of change to allow even occasional large groups of parties or whatever for the church or soccer fields that would benefit the community, is going to have an extreme adverse affect, especially on Alfani Road, because there was never any access allowed to the church onto Meridian Road over here. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 47 of 83 Rohm: Thank you. Please come forward. Kelly: My name is Larry Kelly. I live at 403 East 2nd Street in Meridian, Idaho. One thing I wanted to point out, regardless of the situation with the soccer fields, that's just pie in the sky at this time. We don't know that that's going to happen. But keep in mind that the traffic is basically only on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. That's the time that church is. So, all the rest of the time you're not going to have any traffic going through there at all. It's just a point that I thought was important. Rohm: Thank you. Bonner: My name is Lachelle Bonner. I'm at 2868 South Alfani Way. And I would like - - again, the issue with the traffic, I don't have a problem with the church being there, but the first Sunday that they did have a meeting, I waited in my driveway while the first few cars coming out came straight down our street to get to Victory. So, instead of using the Maestra access to Meridian, Meridian to Victory, they all came straight down Alfani to cut through to Victory Road. Again, I want to, you know, support my neighborhood, that it's a lot of traffic coming through, even on Sunday morning and Wednesday nights, coming straight down our, you know, small street. Rohm: Is there anyone else that would like to testify at this time? Would the applicant like to come back up, please. Hoaglun: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Brad Hoaglun. Yeah, that was a concern. We wanted to do something different and for traffic and the traffic authorities at that time, with the development of Strada Bellissima, said, no, we are going to make you guys share a street and that's what we have. Like I said, we wish we could have done something different, but they said, no, this property will be served on Maestra as Strada Bellissima will be served on Maestra. So, that's -- like the neighbors, wish something different could have been done, but that's what they said will be done and there we have it and if in the future we can change that, great. But, unfortunately, we don't have that authority. You are kind of limited in your authority to make recommendations for traffic, but that's another jurisdiction. So, the change in zoning and traffic, whether we are an R-8 or a C-G, does not change the fact about that and, you know, that's -- that's something, yeah, we wish we could change and we worked on for a very long time, but not something we can do. So, you know, I noticed in their -- their argument that that commercial designation would change traffic patterns. No. What we have now will be there and down the road, if I understand the development agreement, that if -- if something happens down the road and we don't know what happens ten years from now, 15 years from now, that the church would have to come back to the city and we are fine with that. To protect the neighborhood. To let them have a say in what goes on there, so there is not a big box with 65 foot -- we certainly don't want that as a church. We have a beautiful facility there and we want to keep it there. In fact, that was one of the things I mentioned earlier. We planned this church not to be a box, but to look like a place of worship and something that people can see and know that it won't lower Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 48 of 83 property values and is very separate from a big box retail where we are not shoving the facility up against the neighborhood. Our parking is on the side and in the back. You want the church up front, completely reversed. So, landscaping issues -- of course we are going to have landscaping needs and requirements, those types of things, but to say it's the same thing as the hearing you just had and if you're going to require that, I don't know what to say on that, because it's -- they are completely different issues on this particular property. So, the reason for this zoning C-G is an electronic sign. If there was a way to accommodate that, hey, great, we are willing to listen and to find ways to make that happen, but we also know the city has -- puts in compliance levels and certain things can occur in certain zones and we will go from there. Rohm: Thank you, Before you sit down, let me ask staff. In their current R-8 zone is there any vehicle available to them for the signage that just C-G offers? Hess: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, there is not. Rohm: Thank you. Hess: There is even no vehicle for them in the C-N zone or the C-C zone, So, even the lower commercial districts do not allow the type of sign that they are looking for. This is the only commercial district that does, In addition to this commercial, industrial is the only one that allows reader board signs. So, that would have been their options and they elected for commercial, which is obviously less intense than industrial. Rohm: Thank you. Appreciate that very much. Any additional questions of the applicant? Thank you, sir. Hoaglun: Thank you. Moe: Mr, Chairman. Amanda, can you put up the sign? Hess: If I can answer some questions for the Commission, I have the measurements of the sign in front me right now. The sign is -- the -- I guess the length there is 12 and the height is ten feet. So, it really isn't that large of a sign. A normal size monument sign, Moe: Do you have a location on the sign? Hess: I'm sorry? Moe: Where is this located on the site? Hess: I was told by the applicant -- Moe: Right there? Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 49 of 83 Hess: -- that it would be located near the church on the street. We also do have provisions in our code that states that these signs cannot be located within five feet of residential districts. It's actually one hundred feet away. So, it will be significantly far from -- or visually obtrusive towards these residential districts. It just -- it won't be like that. We have provisions that protect neighbors from that, so -- Rohm: Thank you. Any other questions of staff for the applicant before we close the Public Hearing? Moe: Mr. Chairman, I think the applicant had something he wanted to add to that and I'd like to know what that was, since he came up. Hoaglun: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Commissioner. Just briefly. In talking with the architect, he is suggesting to us now that -- and it might work better for the neighborhood that we move it to the other side of the church to the south side of the building, so there is no visual issues with any of the neighbors over there. So, it's -- I'm sorry, if I can use this -- so, putting it over here, that way you don't have any -- any sort of visual from the neighborhoods and that's something I think would probably be a good thing to do and we would be willing to do -- to help that out. Moe: Thank you. Rohm: Commissioner O'Brien. O'Brien: Yeah. I just have a question, maybe staff can answer. What were the reasons why they couldn't have access to Meridian Road from the parking lot or -- because of the traffic issues? Hood: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, Commissioner O'Brien, I think Commissioner Newton-Huckabay alluded to it earlier. There was a project, the 12 acres that the church actually split off and sold to the residential subdivision just further to the west. As part of that subdivision city staff did push for a collector roadway out to Meridian Road that could be shared by both that -- Shepherd's Creek Subdivision I think it was called and the church as an access out to Meridian Road at the mid mile, which the UDC requires on a type four arterial roadway. The ACHD commission did not find that way and they, basically, said do not construct a public street, we don't want one, we are not going to accept one. So, ACHD and their commission did not want to see another access point out to Meridian Road on this property. O'Brien: Thank you. Siddoway: Mr. Chairman. Question for staff. As a church campus, do they qualify for the center sign allowances or are they restricted to the sign allowances for a single structure? I would assume that they could qualify for the center sign, but I'm just trying to clarify. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 50 of 83 Hess: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, as I have been conferring with staff here, they seem to believe that you have to be a multi-tenant type structure to be eligible for that type of sign. Siddoway: When I looked up the definition of center sign, it said a sign allowed to a planned sign program and planned sign programs -- are they tied specifically to multi- tenant? Hess: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, that is correct. Siddoway: Thank you. Hess: The code specifically reads: All development in commercial, office, or industrial districts comprising more than one principal building on a property shall apply for a planned sign program. All developments in commercial, office, or industrial districts with more than one tenant per building and proposing more than one wall sign for elevation, shall apply for a planned sign program. And this application does not apply to that. Siddoway: Are projects in L-O zones eligible for a planned sign program? Hess: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, an L-O zone is considered a commercial zone. Siddoway: Okay. Hess: It's the least intense of the commercial districts. Siddoway: But just so I'm clear, they could not do a center sign, because -- even within an L-O zone, because they are not multi-tenant. Hess: That is correct. Siddoway: Okay. Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair? Rohm: Commissioner Newton-Huckabay. Newton-Huckabay: Commission Siddoway, I'm assuming you're not comfortable with the C-G zoning and are searching for some other potential way to get compliance for a sign? Siddoway: That's correct. Hood: Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, I mean we did that at the staff level, too -- I mean with the applicant and it seemed a little over the top to rezone the whole Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 51 of 83 38 acres to C-G for a sign, but you can't apply for a sign variance, there is no such thing in code. There is no variance permit. A Conditional Use Permit is not an option either, as they are just prohibited in the R-8 zone. So, that's not an option. Rezoning it to C-G or I-L as Amanda mentioned are, really, the only options to get this type of sign. So, the reader board sign -- not even the center sign, but a reader board sign is what the church is after, so this is, really, the only mechanism that they can achieve that sign. It seemed a little -- you know, okay, a lot much to rezone all of it to C-G, but that's, really, what it came down to when you look at the ordinance and trying to find other ways around it, so we couldn't find any other way. Rohm: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Well, it seems to me we have an Achilles Heel in our ordinance here that -- we have one of those scenarios in the ordinance that are not covered in the detailed sign ordinance. Hood: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, if I may. I mean that's done on purpose. We aren't looking for reader board signs all over the city and so limiting it to a couple of districts is the intent of only allowing them in the most intense commercial and the most intense industrial zones or else you don't get them, so -- and not having loopholes I think was also done on purpose, so people couldn't put them in a residential district. Now, churches I don't think were thought of when the zone ordinance was -- those provisions were put into the zoning ordinance, so there is an out lier, if you will, or a case that probably wasn't envisioned for -- that needed a reader board. Schools-- same thing with schools. They are in the same boat and you're going to see them rezoned to a district where they can have a reader board. In fact, we are dealing with one of them right now, because they have got a residential district. Newton-Huckabay: Well, I guess that's my -- my point being is that we are every day more and more a technology driven society and more and more a society that communicates through technology like that. So, maybe it's -- we need to look at the -- possibly at the sign ordinance versus the zoning of buildings, because we are only going to have more and more requests for some type of reader board sign, my personal opinion, because you're seeing them pop up more -- distracting as they may be, I don't think they are going to go away and it seems like we are -- a lot of maneuvers to have to go through, as we anticipated. Hood: And, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, Commissioner Newton-Huckabay, you know, that is something our ordinance is not static, we can make changes and we will, you know, bring that back up for further discussion. We do -- particularly on highways -- I don't know if you have seen the new sign that they have at the All Valley Animal Clinic -- it's distracting. People are going 65 -- or right now they are supposed to be going 55 miles an hour, but 65, 70 miles an hour trying to watch a movie at the same time, that's not very safe and I think that's -- you know, that's what we are primarily charged with is public health, safety, and welfare. So, whether communication is done through reader board signs, we do want to try and limit that and let people focus on the Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19. 2007 Page 52 of 83 road. I mean we are carrying 40 to 50 thousand cars a day here and for a church -- I mean that -- just streaming videos and things that -- there is -- it's not real appropriate for signs. At least that's the general stand for the department, so -- but we can evaluate it and see if there may be some exclusions or other instances where we can create a better vehicle to get some -- to allow these in some other places in some certain instances, so -- Newton-Huckabay: Well, this is the perfect instance where we are talking about both sides of the issue. We don't want reader board signs, but we are willing to rezone the church so they can have one. Well, either we want them or we don't and that's kind of how -- I guess I don't have a real strong feeling about it one way or another, but I think like was said, going over the top to rezone to commercial, so that we can allow reader board signs that we conceivably do or don't want in the city. I mean I guess that's the question is do we or don't we want the reader board signs. Baird: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, and Commissioner Newton-Huckabay, if I could help to refocus. The question before you is whether this particular reader board is appropriate for this particular site. If you're in general agreement to that, you have a vehicle before you to get you there. Although it does require the C-G zoning, the development agreement that we use extensively really makes it so that it's a C-G zoning in name only. No other uses will be allowed, except the sign. You can even make a motion to limit the size of the sign to what was presented, so that your net effect of any action that you take tonight would be very minimal. So, if I could just refocus back to that and maybe have planning staff put the general reader board discussion for a future workshop. Newton-Huckabay: Fair enough. Rohm: Thank you. I appreciate your input. With that being said, could we get a motion to close the Public Hearing? Siddoway: Mr. Chairman, I move to close the Public Hearing RZ 07-012. Moe: Second. Rohm: It's been moved and seconded to close the Public Hearing on RZ 07-012. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same sign? Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Rohm: Any discussion before we request a motion to be made? Mr. Siddoway? Siddoway: Mr. Chairman, I oppose the rezone to C-G. What I have heard tonight is that it's only -- the rezone is only for signage and I think a rezone to commercial simply for signage sets bad precedent that I don't want to see repeated all over the city. To zone something commercial and, then, say no commercial uses can go on it, or to zone Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 53 of 83 it anything and to say that no uses typically allowed in that zone are allowed, is something I think is -- I have a problem with that. I would rather see it addressed through the ordinance than by a bad rezone with a development agreement that restricts all the uses. During the Comprehensive Plan discussions this corridor came up a lot and whether or not commercial zoning would -- or commercial future land use designations would be allowed and it was clear from that discussion that they would not be. Now, I understand they are not necessarily proposing commercial land uses, but the -- to get the commercial zone and, then, the next guy down the road says, well, they got it -- I just think it's a bad precedent, even with the restrictions on the uses. I do believe they should be allowed to have a sign, so I do favor a rezone. Because I understand they cannot really have a sign in the residential zone they currently have. A couple years ago we went through a rash of rezones for church sites for reasons of signage and other things and as I recall all the church rezones that I can remember rezoned to L-O at that time. I was just looking up -- even under the L-O zone you would have -- the sign they are proposing would not be allowed, that is true. They could have, for a single building free standing sign up to 50 square feet. While smaller than what they are proposing, still certainly visible. One of the reasons I favor restricting to the smaller sign size is Highway 69 has been designated as a historic byway. I have been sensitive to, you know, signage issues, landscape issues, along this newly designated byway and I think the lack of a reader board and the slightly smaller sign, is more in harmony with what I envision as compatible with that byway and it fits with the rezone that I have seen applied to most other church properties, so that's where I'm at. Thank you. Rohm: Commissioner O'Brien. O'Brien: Well, it's almost ditto. One of the comments as far as the signage goes that -- and you're right, that's a very -- you know, it's a heavily traveled corridor Highway 69, and I have seen it go from a two lane all the way up to a -- what is it, five lanes now? And having a sign out there -- especially a streaming sign, to me is just waiting to have something bad happen. Distraction from driver's especially, you know. So, I'm totally -- if the sign ever comes about -- I would be totally again any kind of a streaming sign or something that's streaming through a video. It's just too doggone dangerous. But, again, with -- I'd have to ditto Commissioner Siddoway's comments on all the rest. Rohm: Thank you. Commissioner Newton-Huckabay. Newton-Huckabay: I think I have probably said enough. Rohm: Commissioner Moe. Moe: Well, quite frankly, I'm not really in favor of a reader board type sign and whatnot, but at the same point I -- the change in the zoning in order to put the sign in, I'm pretty much like Commissioner Siddoway, I would just as soon see this done properly, as opposed to, basically, a change in a DA just to accommodate putting a sign in. I would say that I would probably not be in favor of approval. .. .. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 54 of 83 Siddoway: Mr. Chairman? Rohm: Commissioner Siddoway. Siddoway: I have a clarification question for staff. Does -- would -- under L-O would they be allowed to have a manual reader board -- reader board sign like they have at their existing site here? Hess: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, it does look like manual reader boards are allowed for a maximum of 50 percent of the sign background area. Siddoway: Thank you. That helps with the ability to have some changing text, if they want to advertise a certain event or something that's going on that week. Question for legal counsel. Can we recommend to Council -- City Council a rezone to a different zone or are we faced with -- can we recommend a rezone to L-O or do we just have to approve or deny a C-G? Baird: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, Commissioner Siddoway, you know, it's been done both ways. You're, in essence, recommending something against what was applied for. So, the remedy for the -- for the applicant is to continue with their request when they get to Council against your recommendation. So, you can certainly make that recommendation and, then, your other option, of course, would be an outright denial. Or approval. I mean you have got three. Siddoway: Either way it would go onto Council and they would have their -- Baird: Absolutely. So, they would have another opportunity to -- what really puts them in a fix is to get to Council and the Council approves something less than what they have requested and, you know, whether they want to accept that or not is an open question. It looks like Caleb has got something to add here. Hood: Yeah. I just wanted to follow up on that and just -- this has been a point for neighbors, too, because it will be noticed as rezone to C-G, because that's still what the applicant's applying for. So, everyone that's within 300 feet of this will still get a notice saying that the applicant is requesting the C-G zone, even though you may recommend approval of a lesser zone. So, I just wanted everyone out there to know that your motion doesn't necessarily change the notice that the clerk is going to send out for the City Council hearing, so just to follow it up, we do get phone calls on that quite regularly. So, it's another point. And maybe this helps for future. In the past the Commission is able to recommend a lesser zoning. If you were to recommend a higher zone, say you recommended industrial, then, we would have to re-notice and actually start that process over again. So, because you're recommending a lesser zone we are okay, if you recommend a lesser zone. But if you were to recommend something more intense, we would have to, essentially, start the process over. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 55 of 83 Rohm: Everybody else has spoken and now it's my turn. I'm fully in support of the application. I think that the applicant and the staff have done an excellent job coming up with solutions that meet the needs of the church, while at the same time, addressing the issues of the community has a whole. They have done everything that they can to limit the opportunity of the church to expand into any other commercial venture beyond the inclusion of this sign. The sign that's being proposed is ten by 12 or 12 by 15 and the church is 35 foot tall and I don't know how many square feet, but it's a beautiful structure and this sign is minuscule in comparison to the church itself. If its placed in front of the church, whether it be to the north of the frontage or to the south of the frontage, it is going to be blocked from the residential development behind it almost exclusively and, true, as you pull out onto the roadway you're going to see that sign and I think that that's the intent of a sign. Now, if, in fact, the Commission as a whole wants to address the reader board, I don't know how you do that, but my personal opinion is that the city staff and the church have gone above and beyond to come up with something that does not violate ordinance, while at the same time gets the job done. That's my opinion. Thank you. Siddoway: Mr. Chairman. If the discussion is still open, I like the church use and I actually don't have any real problem with their sign. It's an attractive sign. I just think the rezone to C-G for me is the wrong mechanism. Rohm: If there was another -- that's why I asked the question initially is is there another vehicle via a variance request or any other vehicle, but there is not. The current ordinances say you either got to do a rezone or you -- or you don't put the sign in. And I think that it is in good keeping to consider as we move forward in our community to make changes in ordinances as we find issues that don't fit, but you don't stop what's going on today, because our ordinance doesn't provide the provisions for an answer outside of the limitations that staff has proposed limiting, so that it does protect the community as a whole. Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chairman, would it also be fair to say that the current ordinance and most other churches being zoned L-Q isn't -- the current ordinance isn't designed to support electronic reader board signs. It's not that it's -- the sign is the issue, it's that we are going to extraordinary lengths to allow signs that are not endorsed by the ordinance, is my interpretation of that. So, I would be in favor of zoning -- recommending or suggesting zoning that's in spirit with the rest of the church zoning in the city or that continuity and I am all for any sign that would be allowed that any other church is allowed to have in that zoning. Now, is that -- are we in agreement there? Because, in essence, we are going to these extraordinary lengths to rezone it C-G, so they can have an electronic reader board sign. If they want a regular sign, like every other church has that's zoned L-Q -- Rohm: You still have to do a rezone, then, don't you. Newton-Huckabay: But we are not rezoning to C-G. Meridian Planning & Zoning July 19, 2007 Page 56 of 83 Rohm: You're still doing a rezone. Let's-- Siddoway: Take a motion. Rohm: Let's get a motion. Siddoway: I will take a stab. Mr. Chairman, after considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to recommend approval to the City Council of file number RZ 07-012 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of July 19th, 2007, changing the zone from C-G to L-O and having the L-O signage standards apply to the property. End of motion. Newton-Huckabay: Second. Rohm: It's been moved and seconded to forward onto City Council recommending approval of RZ 07-012, with the aforementioned modifications. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same sign. Motion carried. I was the lone objection. MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE NAY. Item 8: Continued Public Hearing from July 5, 2007: CUP 07-014 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for the construction of a 7,750 square foot multi- tenant retail building for J & K Investments Retail by J & K Investments, LLC - 1330 E. Fairview Avenue (Lot 2, Block 2, Doris Subdivision): Rohm: Thank you, folks, for coming in. At this time I'd like to open the Public Hearing on CUP 07-013 and begin with the staff report. Hess: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. The subject application came before you on July 5th, the previous Commission meeting. The applicant requested Conditional Use Permit to construct a 7,500 square foot multi-tenant retail building with a drive-thru window. The subject property is located on the north side of Fairview, approximately a fifth of a mile west of Locust Grove. Totals about one point -- about one acre and is currently zoned C-G. At that time the discussion was access. We will go down to the site plan here. Currently the sole access to the subject site will be from an improved shared driveway to Fairview Avenue at the south. And that's here. Staff encouraged the applicant to realize secondary access by the neighboring property, the Idaho Athletic Club to the east. OthelWise, the fire department stated that they would require an approved turnaround within the front parking lot for emergency vehicles. Additionally, the applicant submitted elevations for the proposed structure, of which staff requested modification. Staff was supportive of the proposed north and south facing elevations. However, east and west facing portions of the structure were generally blank walls. Staff believed the applicant should provide either one window or awning on the east side of the building. To give the applicant time to resolve these issues, the Commission elected to continue the Public Hearing to tonight. Staff has spoken with a representative for the Idaho Athletic Club and while a cross-access