April 3, 2007 C/C Minutes
Meridian City Council
April 3, 2007
Page 44 of 69
Rountree: If this is not a successful application and we see it again, I would hope that
we would also be presented with some design considerations. That has been our
practice. I hope it remains our practice. Not having design review in the City of
Meridian, but, basically, on staff's shoulders, as well as ours, ultimately, before making a
decision I'd like to know what it is we are deciding on. So, that's my last comment.
De Weerd: Okay. Do I have a motion?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I move that we deny Item 10, PP 06-064.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to deny Item 10. Is there any
discussion? Seeing none, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Borton, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 11:
Public Hearing: AZ 06-061 Request for Annexation and Zoning of 95.57
acres from RUT to R-8, R-15 and R-40 zones for Baraya Subdivision by
RMR Consulting, Inc. - 3935 West Franklin Road and 280 South Black
Cat Road:
Item 12:
Public Hearing: PP 06-062 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 118
single-family building lots on 26.41 acres in the proposed R-8 zone; 216
single-family building lots on 38.26 acres and 1 school lot on14.98 acres in
the proposed R-15 zone; 2 multi-family lots on 13.01 acres in the
proposed R-40 zone; and 30 common lots for Baraya Subdivision by
RMR Consulting, Inc - 3935 West Franklin road and 280 South Black Cat
Road:
De Weerd: Okay. Items 11 and 12 are a Public Hearing on AZ 06-061 and PP 06-062.
I will open these two public hearings with staff comments.
Hood: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. The last application -- at
least Public Hearing application on your agenda this evening is for Baraya Subdivision
and it is located on the south side of Franklin Road and on the east side of Black Cat
Road. To the north is Silver Oaks Subdivision. Let's see. Which is a mixed use
development proposed with some multi-family units in the future, as well as some -- a
day care and some L-O zoned property there. Everything else around this -- around
this project is currently in the county and zoned in the county. R-1 and RUT are the
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dominant zones in this area. There is the aerial. You can see it's agricultural land
today. There are some homesteads on the parcels in this area and, again, you know,
it's pretty much rural out there right now. However, the Comprehensive Plan does
designate this site currently medium density residential and mixed use regional. As
you're aware, we are going through the Ten Mile area plan and this is within the
boundaries of that Ten Mile specific area plan and the draft designations that are
proposed for this site include a civic school site, green space and park land, medium
density residential, medium high density residential, and high density residential. So,
those are the designations on this specific property that are proposed with the Ten Mile
plan. Before I go any further, I do want to stop and give you some of the history behind
this property and also behind this subject application. In late 2005 an application for
annexation and zoning and preliminary plat were submitted on this site. That project
was called Bryce Canyon Subdivision. Bryce Canyon included a request for an R-8
zone, TN-R zone, and it included 475 single family residential lots. That application was
withdrawn by the applicant shortly after submittal. Then, in May of 2006 the applicant
again submitted annexation and zoning and a preliminary plat application for the site.
That application submittal was called Baraya. The applications for Baraya proposed
406 single family residential lots, one office lot, and 23 common lots and L-O zoning
designations. The applications were brought before the Planning and Zoning
Commission on June 15th, 2006. The Commission recommended approval of the
project. However, on July 18th, 2006, the City Council voted to deny Baraya. Council's
basis for denial fell primarily upon the lack of conformance of the proposal with the
anticipated outcome of the Ten Mile area specific plan. I want to stop right there for just
a second, because we were just pretty much in the heat of the discussion for Ten Mile
when this was before you, again, in July of this last year and the applicant subsequently
asked that you reconsider your denial action. The action that you took was to remand
this project back to the Planning and Zoning Commission. That has occurred. Some
further changes have even occurred at the Planning and Zoning Commission level to
get you to what you see here tonight. So, I'm going to jump into that project and staff
believes that this project now does comply generally with the anticipated Ten Mile plan
that you will be seeing here some time this next -- late spring, probably.
De Weerd: Caleb, is that -- that plan does not have a recommendation on it from
Planning and Zoning yet?
Hood: It does not. It's actually scheduled for hearing April 5th. So, the proposed
development -- and I apologize, the plat is on a couple different pages and trying to get
all this on -- on one screen doesn't happen very easily and jumping through five different
sheets you can't really see what's going on. So, this is, essentially, a plat, although
there aren't any dimensions or anything on it. But it's a layout of the project and it's --
there is 95.57 acres and 28 acres is proposed for R-8 zoning. Sixty-four acres is
proposed for R-15 zoning. And 13 acres, plus some change, is zoned R-40. Generally
speaking the R-8 stuff is more near the north. R-15 would be on the southern. Now, I'm
being real general here. And, then, the R-40 would be on the east side of the
subdivision. The subject preliminary plat proposed is 334 single family residential lots,
28 common lots, and one school lot within the proposed R-8 and R-15 zones. So, I'm
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going to stop right there real quick. You can probably make out the school lot, but this
would come out over on Black Cat Road and that's the property talked about there.
And, then, I mentioned that the R-40 -- there are two lots in the R-40 on the east side of
the plat as well. Access to this site is proposed from three public streets that connect to
Black Cat Road and Franklin Road. So, there is one off of Black Cat and two off of
Franklin. Sorry. Two off of Franklin. Right in there. That's a collector roadway, South
Glen Canyon Avenue is proposed near the east boundary of the property and divides
the property along the proposed zoning designations of R-15 and R-40. So, this is a
collector roadway that stubs to the property to the south. That is also consistent with --
the Ten Mile plan has a traffic component to it and a collector was generally anticipated
in that location. They also are aligned with the entrance into Silver Oaks Subdivision on
the other side of Franklin Road. Sixteen percent of 13 acres of the site is set aside for
open space. Jump to the landscape plan. A multi-use pathway, landscape parkways, a
25-foot wide landscape buffer along South Glen Canyon Avenue and two community
park areas, which include a pool with changing room and tot lots are proposed as
amenities. The gross density of this project is 5.16 units per acre. That does exclude
the school site and the future multi-family dwellings, as we don't know the exact
densities that are going to occur on those R-40 lots in the future. The applicant has
submitted some elevations since the Commission hearing. I believe the only elevations
we had at the Commission hearing were some townhouse elevations. We now have
elevations for the town homes, the alley loaded lots, and your typical single family
detached, so I'm going to come back to those in just a minute. The Commission did
recommend approval of this project on March 1 st of this year. Some of the things that
were discussed at the hearing included providing quality building exteriors for these --
for the residential products, to include stucco, stone, and brick and the Commission also
accepted the applicant's proposal that the high density portion, the R-40 zoned portion,
comply with the specific guidelines of the Ten Mile area when adopted, as it appears
that those guidelines should be adopted prior to -- prior to the development of those R-
40 lots and they will require Conditional Use Permit approval, so they will be back for a
Public Hearing in the future. Let's see. Some outstanding issues, I guess, for you. We
do have some elevations, which I talked about and I'll run through those. A couple of
things that I would ask that you modify in your recommendation. The applicant did
submit an e-mail to staff here this last week. Condition 1.1.7, references 315 lots, is
actually 334 lots proposed tonight. So, I would just note that. That is an error in the
staff report. And, then, condition 1.1.12 should have said that, you know, with the
development of each phase the required landscaping and sidewalks need to be
installed along the adjacent arterials. I know it's been the preference of this Council to
get some of the sidewalks going to schools in with the development as they occur.
Excuse me. There is not a very large piece of sidewalk on Black Cat. As you can see,
there is a very limit amount of frontage. I looked -- we just a couple weeks ago received
a map from Wendell Bigham at the school district and I looked on his map and this site
still shows up as being a negotiated school site. So, timing -- I was looking to see when
construction of this site was in their plan and it looks like it's still a negotiation site, so I
don't know what that means necessarily. To me that implies that they don't have it
scheduled for construction anytime soon. The applicant may -- and, hopefully, does
have some more information on that, but I just thought I'd let you know, because I tried
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to see if that school was planned next year, then, probably getting the sidewalks in is
important, you known, if you have kids going to be showing up there in a couple few
years. But it looked like it's on a time plan that's a horizon that's out there a little bit
further. And the applicant also in that e-mail stated that they have met with the fire and
police department on a couple conditions in Exhibit Band I'll let the applicant touch on
those if they need those to be amended as well. And now before I yield the floor I did
want to run through a couple of the slides, particularly some of the elevations. First, this
exhibit shows the mixture of lots. I don't know if you can read that or not. The yellow
are the town home lots. The next color down -- I'll call that pink -- are R-40 zoned lots.
And, then, red is 40 foot wide lots. The orange would be 50 foot wide lots. The baby
blue is 60 foot lots. Purple are alley-loaded lots. And, then, green is common area or it
looks like the school also shows up in that common area. So, that's kind of a mixture of
the different sizes of lots and different typologies for the residential units that are
anticipated throughout Baraya. And, then, here is a blow-up area of the -- a blow up of
the Ten Mile area, with this property overlaid on it, the -- just so you can kind of see the
designations. And, again, moving from left to right, medium density residential is kind of
that yellow color that is on the northern part of this. The orange would be a medium
high density residential. The elementary school pretty much is on -- excuse me. The
high density residential would be the darker brown, again, where the R-40 is proposed.
So, you can see it generally conforms pretty well to the overlay that the Ten Mile -- draft
Ten Mile plan has for this site and it's not exact, you know, there are some streets that
are off a little bit or this designation floats a little bit, but generally staff said, you know,
this is pretty close, especially for a plan that hasn't even been adopted by the Council
yet. We felt this was pretty close. So, just wanted you to see that overlay as well. Here
is the tot lot structures that are proposed. I vaguely recall seeing something about the
color of these maybe changing, but this is, essentially, the layout of the tot lot, so I don't
think it's- going to be that blue, but I'll let the applicant maybe clarify that. I think he
could clear that up as well. But I vaguely remember seeing an e-mail. And, then, they
have this, as I talk about before. And there is some comments and I'm not even sure if
these comments are from Anna or they are from Amanda, but they are comments and I
did review them and I would concur with most of them. I guess I'm going to maybe jump
to the punch line here before we go through all the slides, but a lot of them are garage
dominated. That's what I saw on quite a few of them. Not only just the single family
homes, but the town homes specifically. There are some components -- and I apologize
I haven't been probably as diligent of reading up on this Ten Mile plan as I should be,
but I have other duties and I do know that one of the aspects, though, is to -- oh, similar
to what Mr. Turnbull was talking about earlier tonight with his vacation request was
berm the residences to the street, create the friendly environment, pedestrian friendly
environment, bring the homes to the -- to street level and kind of create that and I think
they do that with some of these units, not -- not all of them, and that's what a lot of these
-- these comments from the staff are and I'll just let you kind of review and read for
yourself, I'm not going to comment on all of them. Materials -- you know, there are
some that do a better job of using materials and others that are pretty monotone and
don't use very many materials. So, there is some more single family. And if you want
me to stop or go back, please -- so, now onto the townhome projects. So, these are
attached single family. The one on the bottom of this slide is not the same, it's similar to
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what was proposed at the Commission meeting. I do see there are some modulation in
the garages. Some of the buildings, if you can notice, it's slight, but there are some
modulation between the face of the garage and the street, so your driveways,
essentially, get longer and shorter with some of those. That fourth unit is set back it
appears a little bit further than the third unit. So, there is some modulation, but, again,
it's pretty garage dominated in front of the street. That's a lot of what you see. Here is
another set of townhomes that we feel does a lot better job of down playing the garages
to a mix of materials, even though that's still street, that's a lot of what you're going to
see. And here is some other ones that we have found somewhere. I'm not even sure
where -- that we thought were attractive and did a nice job of making it not feel so,
again, garage dominated. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but it does down play that
garage and makes it more street friendly, if you will. And, then, some alley loaded
products. Again, we don't run into the garage problem with these. They are going to be
off of alleys, so you aren't going to see the garage, but for going down the alley. So,
these are going to be on your 40 foot wide lots, essentially, in the alley loads. And,
then, I have a bigger Ten Mile map. But that's -- that's what I have for elevations and,
again, most all of those, I believe, are new since the Planning and Zoning Commission
meeting, so I just wanted to share those with you and with that I believe I touched on all
the notes that I had and I will stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions at this point?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I have two.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Let's see. During some of the, I guess, public open houses on the Ten Mile
area plan there was talk in this general area or this direction of some industrial -- is that
farther west or north of this or is this where it was suggested?
Hood: Yeah. It is a little bit further. I could put the draft area map on there. I was
trying to stay away from this, as -- it will be -- you will have your chance at it here soon
enough. But, yeah, it did end up further to the west as you can see and that would be
the border with Nampa as well, so --
Zaremba: It's not this property that's --
Hood: Correct.
Zaremba: -- industrial.
Hood: Correct.
Zaremba: Okay. Thank you. The other question is there was a letter I believe from the
church that's going to locate across the street from this, about a signal at Silver Oaks.
Does one of your plans identify where Silver Oaks is?
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Hood: Yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't touch on that. That is in the staff report. I didn't mention
the letter that we did receive. So, this may not -- let's go to this one, maybe. So, again,
this is Silver Oaks or Umbria is what the final plat was called. They just have the
smallest amount of frontage there with the triangular piece. So, that's where this
subdivision also ties and aligns with, so I believe that's what their -- again, on this side,
that would align with the Umbria. That would be a collector roadway here. So, the
warrant probably in the future would be -- on the south side, anyways, I don't know
about the north side, would probably be there for a signal, but that's the location.
Zaremba: Great. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions for staff? Okay. Would the applicant like to
come forward?
Schultz: Good evening, Mayor and Council. Matt Schultz, 2127 South Alaska Way in
Meridian, here representing this application and it's good to be back. It's been awhile,
last summer, and we have been working hard since then and, you know, one thing we
were lacking last summer, as I thought back on it, was there just wasn't a consensus as
to what this area was. It wasn't that our plan was bad, it was just we didn't know if there
was industrial going to be pointed out in the area or if it was -- if the mixed use regional
that it shows right now was going to be commercial or what was it going to be. We had
an idea, but that wasn't good enough. So, we did immerse ourselves in the Ten Mile
area plan. We were one of the large stakeholders in the area and we believe brought a
lot to the table as a suggestion, some regional issues, but we suggested and a lot of
suggestions were made towards that that we were able to comply with and I can say
that we have complied with everything that was recommended to us to get to this stage
and that we do come before you with a consensus now that we didn't have before from
your staff and Planning Commission, which is no easy task, as well as your HDR, your
consultant that was hired to orchestrate the charrette process and everything, worked
closely with Mr. Mark Sawyer through that process as well. But not only that, but your
police department, your fire department, your parks department. If you remember, there
was a question about a park in this area last year that through that process it was kind
of moved across the freeway, I think. You know, it moved when they looked at the
bigger picture. And, then, the school. Wendell Bigham last year said, oh, we don't need
a school out here right now. Well, when it became apparent to him through the
charrette process that this might have a lot of kids in the area at some point, he went we
need a school. And so that changed as well. So, what we bring back before you is a
highly evolved project that I think that we have covered all of our bases, crossed our I's,
dotted our T's, and I think we have done -- you know, we have taken our time and I
don't think anybody is going to accuse this thing of going through quickly, so I think it's
good and let me if I can -- if you can go to the landscape plan, please. Maybe point out
some of the main regional type things that -- that we identified through the Ten Mile plan
and also point out that we do comply with the current comp plan, which has been in
force since -- what does it say there, 2002. It's on your floor over here. You know, we
do comply with that, as well as the anticipated recommended outcome of the Ten Mile
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plan. So, we do comply with both and we are subject to the current one. We are not
saying that to get around anything, we are just pointing that out that we do comply with
it. But this regional collector here does line up with Silver Oaks and, yes, we will be
contributing towards half of the signal through the ACHD staff report at whatever time
they dictate that that be put in. This is a 70 foot wide collector, with landscaping on both
sides, and to the middle, similar to EI Dorado or Silverstone, a nice regional type
entryway that we don't necessarily need for our side, but it is built to get to. the south
and also to get to the east. The school site, 15 acres that we have set aside to -- to
work with the school district. Wendell's been busy. It's not on the top of his priority list
right now to get that through, but if anything other than a school goes there, we would
be back in front of you. I mean it's set for a school, we are going to -- you know,
Wendell negotiated very astutely to get the best deal he can on the property and we are
going to put a school there, because it adds value to the area, it adds value to have
walk-able paths to the elementary school. It's just a good location and it's kind of an
odd shaped piece. It works well, because it's off of Black Cat and, yet, it's set back from
Black Cat, so it's a good piece for a school. We have got the regional pathway that's
ten foot wide pavement with an additional five foot on each side for -- so that the big fire,
EMT trucks can get down there. We have kind of worked that out here recently. It
needs to be a little bit wider in case somebody has a problem here, say, that the big
truck can get in there and the EMT guys can get right to a person. So, we have made it
extra wide to allow the emergency vehicles to get to it and we have got the room in
there to do that. The Black Cat trunk, fortunately, is built through here and across the
highway and, you know, it's to Overland Road now and that's -- it's all in the ground and
all good. We have got a couple parks. This one has a pool and a changing area.
Another one here that we have been working with police. We moved the playground
from here to the middle to make it more visible. That was one of the conditions that we
worked through with the police department staff. The R-40 that we set aside, not really
our thing, not -- you know, we are a single family residential developer and -- but that
was our contribution to the area plan. If you remember before this collector road used
to run along the property line. We have since brought the whole thing onto us, set this
aside as R-40, as our contribution to the regional plan that will be residential, will be
commercial, will be employment, and I'm really excited that this piece long term --
people won't even have to drive out to the main road potentially. You know, they could
work in this area down here, they could recreate, they could go to school, you know,
shop, you know, kind of live, work, play in a bigger picture. Not necessarily all within
our site, but as one of the pieces of the bigger puzzle. I think it fits quite well. It has
been a somewhat painful process just to open ourselves up to that public design
process, if you will, but I think in the end we can look back and say the process worked.
It was a good process. We have a good diversity of product styles in here. Our
contribution to deemphasizing the garages is we have set aside 20 percent of our
homes to be alley loaded. That's one way of handling it. There are other ways to
design houses. A lot of people have opinions. It's hard to quantify in writing and say
you must build exactly that product in this free market economy, but we want to comply
with whatever this Council says we need to do. We want to comply with it, with what --
while still giving us some freedom to compete and do nice things with our product. But
Caleb did -- I appreciate your bringing up the e-mail about some of the minor
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corrections, that two I need to hit on are the police and fire. The police was we met
about moving the tot lot and met about stop signs. You know, there is a fine line
between encouraging high speed traffic and also making good connectivity and
Lieutenant Stowe and I agreed on that. Said, yeah, you're right. So, we have good
connectivity, but at the same time, somebody might say, hey, you're kind of encouraging
people to drive fast and so we are going to four way stop this and two way stop these
two here, plus, we have traffic calming circles here and here for this north-south and this
north-south. So, we have -- in this area up here we have rounded off to prevent a real
long block, too, to kind of try to calm the traffic as well, as well as this area here. So, we
tried to break up some of the long straight stretches the best we could. So, the police --
that was the police department. And, then, the fire, we talked about the pathway needs
to be extra wide from ten and also secondary access -- I want to clear all these things
up up front before we get to final plat. This first phase up here, our secondary access
was going to be out here. Out to Franklin Road. So, I like to get all those out up front,
instead of having to negotiate them later on down the road. And we have all agreed
that that is a viable secondary access until we can get over to this one over here. And,
then, there will be another access when the school goes in and we just don't know when
that's going to happen or how fast Wendell's going to think he needs a school out there.
So, we have covered the police and fire. I wanted to point out kind of our lot mix. We
have got about 26 percent townhomes, 20 percent alley loads, 15 percent 40 foot fronts
-- can you go back to that color, please. So, the townhomes, about 26 percent. About
20 percent are alley loaded. About 15 percent are in the red or 40 foot fronts. About 30
percent are the orange and about ten percent are the blue or the 60 foot. We don't
have anyone that's below ten or any other one that's over 30 of those -- of those five
different product types, so I think we have got a really good mix and that last iteration
with Planning Commission helped us get to that point where we added in some alley
loadeds and we added in more townhomes and we really tried to meet the intent of that
R-15 zone, which is get something more than just straight, you know, single family
detached front loaded and our contribution -- where are the townhomes and where are
the alley loadeds in that. You can see that's a pretty high percentage in there. Where
we differ from the proposed Ten Mile plan slightly -- they have R-8 abutting up to R-40.
We feel wrapping that R-15 around, so you go R-8, R-15, R-40 is a good step that way.
Like Caleb said, it's minor that we are off a little bit on that delineation. I really think we
have that consensus that we didn't have before. I really hope that all the work we have
done on the renderings, as you can see that we have done the work, we have paid an
architect to really put a pencil to it and that's an ongoing process. We are not done with
those renderings. If there is any input we can have, we appreciate it. We have spent
the money, we have spend the time to do the renderings, to do something quality,
something that we can all be proud of in this area and look back and say, hey, that was
a good process we went through. We didn't waste our money on that Ten Mile plan,
because it was a good process, even though we gave up a school and set aside some
areas, I think in the end for the greater good it was -- it's a good project that I can stand
behind and stand proud of. So, I guess with that I will stand for any questions or if there
is anything I missed, appreciate it. Thanks.
De Weerd: Thank you, Matt. Any questions for the applicant?
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Rountree: I have none.
Bird: I have none.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: Just one quick question, Matt, and -- would this particular design -- is it -- is
there an opportunity to utilize some connectivity for these future students? You know,
think you're exactly -- you're right on the money, you're going to have a pile of kids in
here, but there is really -- unless there is a pathway along this --
Schultz: I apologize for not pointing that out. I knew I was missing something.
Borton: I was unsure.
Schultz: One of the things that we did -- it was two fold. One was to buffer ourselves to
the south as a transition. So, we extended these roads down up against here and said,
hey, that's a good spot for a path, because that makes that path very visible. It's not a
very long -- behind the lots for a thousand feet path, it's just open, so the police or --
could see it for only 200 feet, but that is an interconnected path --
Borton: Okay.
Schultz: -- set aside for the school pedestrian traffic, which kind of came about as, oh,
yeah, that's how that -- that worked out good to put that transition there.
Borton: Okay.
Schultz: Sorry about that. I knew I was missing something.
Borton: That's okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. I do have one other name on the sign-up sheet and
that's Steve Moore signed up against.
Moore: Madam Mayor and Council, my opposition to this request --
De Weerd: Sir?
Moore: Yes.
DeWeerd: Would you, please, state your name and address for the record.
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April 3. 2007
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Moore: Oh. Okay. Sorry. Steve Moore. 820 South Black Cat Road in Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Moore: My opposition to this request is based on the conclusion that land between
Interstate 84 and railroad tracks is a unique community resource. The amount of
acreage is limited and should be developed carefully, reserved for commercial,
industrial use. There are numerous places far more appropriate for residential
development in this city and for the future annexation for that purpose. The present
planning and zoning designation names this mixed use, which can, theoretically, include
residential. In public testimony in the past relative to this project it has been
acknowledged that allowing for residential in this area in hindsight was a mistake, I
reason two wrongs don't make a right. This Council already rejected a prior request for
this subdivision and development, reasoning well last summer that a community
planned for this acreage should be established, calling for at least an 18 month planning
process for the area. That charrette planning process has been undertaken and at
those meetings I attended I was assured that residential was not the best use of this
area. The first development, whatever it is, in that acreage area, will affect all future
development in the area between 1-84, Franklin, Ten Mile, and Black Cat. Putting
residential, especially single dwelling residential first anywhere along an artery as busy
as Franklin Road is destined to be in Meridian's future seems an obvious mistake. Far
more appropriate is commercial development. Think of the property by comparison
along Fairview Avenue from Eagle to Main Street in Meridian. Isn't that the kind of
artery that Franklin will be in the future connectedness to Nampa's city limit -- city limits
and all the development in that direction? Residential require a buffer to commercial
and industrial south where it's been admitted tonight that south would include residential
-- or commercial and industrial and this development only steals more land from a better
use for this unique acreage. A school next to offices, warehouses, motels, seems poor
placement to me, especially an elementary school. Safety issues such as traffic
speeds, truck traffic that frequents commercial and industrial, mixed in with residential
seems a logical mistake. Kids walking and bicycling to school with trucks, delivery
trucks, tourist traffic, office, manufacturing traffic, seems very hazardous to me. If this is
a good idea, why don't we take an empty field like the Quenzer farm at Black Cat and
Ustick and reserve it for industrial and commercial in the middle of all the residential
growth northwest of Meridian. And why not have a business park with restaurants,
motels, et cetera, in the middle of a subdivision like Paramount Subdivision. Rather
much more wisely, just commercial and office space has been reserved along Chinden
Boulevard relative to the huge residential area. The answers to those wise, in my
opinion, are seemingly obvious. There is a good deal of public testimony given against
this proposed subdivision months ago. That rationale, in my opinion, still stands.
Please reread that testimony, if you have not, before approving this proposed
development. Though revisions have been made in this second proposal, it is still
primarily single family dwellings. I commend the city for the decision previously made to
reject this residential proposal. Please continue the excellent planning process with
resources committed, spent, in the next months to have a better Comprehensive Plan
for this unique acreage along Interstate 84, at least to Franklin between Ten Mile and
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Black Cat. I recommend that you reject again with a view to a higher, more appropriate
use of this acreage.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Moore: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a Public Hearing. Is there anyone else who would like to
provide testimony on this application? Seeing none, Mr. Schultz, if you want to --
Schultz: Thank you, Mayor and Council. Matt Schultz, 2127 Alaska. I do appreciate
Mr. Moore's comments and the thought process that we go through and give people -- I
thought I was going to get through this tonight with nobody, because I haven't seen Mr.
Moore since last summer, but I do appreciate his comments and just would like to
respond to them that one of the foundational things that we and HGR discussed right
out of the gate of the planning is this residential and there was so much commercial
potential on that Ten Mile corridor, of which we are away from, that we are not
commercial, and the industrial -- this isn't the best spot for industrial from what
everybody has decided. So, it really is a good place to establish a residential base that
feeds the future commercial that feeds the future office, that is where people live and
that section, like I said, they wouldn't have to go out on the main roads and clog
everything up. So, we decided right from day one that this was, indeed, residential.
The existing Comp Plan shows residential on the west half, mixed use regional on the
east half and we have decided that it is all residential, there is just a higher use of
residential. And one thing that we are trying to keep intact is -- I'll admit it, we are trying
to keep intact a single family component, because people that live in Idaho like to have
a little bit of privacy, they like to have a little bit of yard, you know, so we do have some
multi-family, but we are trying to maintain some single family component to our
residential. We are almost a year into the 18 month process. I mean I think the process
has -- has fully evolved and fully went through the process. We need to go through the
final public hearings. But there is a big consensus to what we think that this area is
residential where we are at and that surrounding us there are compatible uses. That
industrial is not right across the street or right to the south of us, it is not incompatible in
this area. And I think the way we have -- we do have a semblance of density. That is
the highest and good use of our -- of our land, especially around these transportation
nodes. If we are going to put density anywhere, let's put it around the Ten Mile
interchange. If we are going to do it anywhere, let's do it here, so people can take
advantage of -- of the transportation opportunities on the interchange and also create
that energy to capitalize on the commercial that's going to go in along -- along that Ten
Mile corridor right around in here. That's going to be the highest commercial uses.
Probably on this side, who knows if it's a mall or whatever it is, but that will be the
highest use commercial and, then, there will be some other commercial here and, then,
it fades away, some residential, and we are -- we kind of have the opposite to what we
are used to. I'm used to submitting some where our perimeter needs to be lower
density, our perimeter used to higher density. I don't know if you have noticed that. It's
almost the reverse of what we usually see where we are transitioning inward instead of
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outward. So, you know, I do respect his comments, but I do believe it is the right time. I
do believe it is the right location and that we are not jumping the gun by approving it,
because it does comply to the existing Comp Plan, as well as a large consensus of what
the future one is going to be, so I guess with that I will leave it at that.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions?
Rountree: I have none.
Schultz: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Caleb, can you tell me on this -- on the road structure,
as we look at Franklin being a major east-west route, in the Comprehensive Plan that is
coming through the process right now, how is the transportation infrastructure set up to
minimize the access out onto Franklin and does this fit within that?
Hood: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, there is a -- as I briefly mentioned
earlier, there is a transportation overlay scenario that we are hoping that development
follows as they come in and is a component of the Ten Mile area plan. The text -- I
don't have too much of the -- I don't have any of the text memorized, but I know that the
idea is -- like on a typical arterial is to limit the amount of access points, but we do
specifically show where those access points should be located. I wasn't part of the
discussions about talking about the accesses, particularly on Ten Mile, because of the
interchange, and where those were going to align between Franklin Road and being far
enough away from any on and off ramps, yet not too close to where Franklin comes in.
So, actual policies in there, again, I'm not too familiar. Maybe some of the others that
were at the charrette some more and have studied that as they prepare for -- but I do
know that that is a component and something, you know, essentially starting with a
blank slate that we are trying to do is limit those access points. It doesn't show up as
well on this map, but there are some -- and, basically, the connections between the
arterials do serve, as you notice, as buffers, if you will, between different land uses on
one side of the street and the other and are limited to thirds of a mile, to generalize.
Again, you know, this is a guide, like the Comprehensive Plan is, but -- but in order for
this thing to work the street layouts for these collector roadways will have to look
something similar.
De Weerd: Well, it looks like Mr. Schultz is just itching to answer that question.
Schultz: Mayor and Council, Matt Schultz, 2127 Alaska. I was really involved in this
process from the beginning with the charrette process and Ten Mile plan. We proposed
roads. They adopted their plans to conform and vice-versa. So, we really are very
compatible. This is the road that lines up with Silver Oaks with the signal here. Here is
the transition between what they showed medium and high, we show medium, medium
high, and high. But here is the transition going into high. We have high and continues
high. The important component of this that I see as critical to the rest of this developing
down here is because some parcels are kind of land locked -- is this east-west collector
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of which we connect into here and, then, also this is -- we have got this connection as
well leading down to these properties. We have worked real closely with this property
down here to make sure that this access would get to them and give them the
connectivity that they needed out to Black Cat without having to run all the traffic
through up to Franklin. So, we have really tried to spread the traffic out to Black Cat, up
to Franklin, and limit it to only two spots. But long term this is going to be crucial to
these properties really getting their connectivity out to Ten Mile and out to Black Cat and
spreading that flow around. But we did look at this. We made sure this did not need to
be a collector and that was confirmed, because it's not a collector, that's our internal
road and so we doing it the right way this time, I think, in terms of -- this is a 2,200 acre
master plan, I believe, and we are putting in the pieces where we think they are
supposed to go up front and people are matching it, instead of trying to fix it, retro fit it.
So, I really think this is the right way to do it and master planning it from the beginning
and we have done that.
De Weerd: And you have a pathway along that -- that canal?
Schultz: The regional pathway will continue. I think in the end this is going to continue
at a diagonal. I think he's thought about straightening this out, but I'm not sure what
he's going to do when he develops this. But, yes, this will lead all the way down, the
regional pathway, parallel to that. The sewer runs parallel to that. And, then, we have
also got a pathway leading here and a gray line we only have a little short section of
that, that's the Williams Pipeline. We have shown a segment of path in there as well
that as we continue that, you know, north, west, south, east, why not build those
sections, because that's just going to be 60 to 90 feet of open area. It may as well
beautify it and put a pathway in it, you know, that you could actually use. I mean at
least the drain is a visual usable space, but that's all flat space. So, they will let you
cross it, they just don't want you staying in it too long with a road, so you got to cross it
quickly and not run diagonally across it. They just want you to get across it quickly. So,
we really have, you know, looked at the long term picture and master planned a big
area and we fit right in as that foundational piece, so -- thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any other questions? I guess I asked that one, so I
don't have anymore questions. Do you? Okay.
Rountree: Well, yeah, I guess I have one for Caleb.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Madam Mayor. Caleb, what's the rough estimate of the Ten Mile plan to get
to Council?
Hood: Madam Mayor, Commissioner Rountree, as I mentioned earlier, it's on this
Thursday for the Planning and Zoning Commission. I don't believe they are probably
going to take action, they are going to probably need to sleep on some things before
they take action. At least that's what staff is going to recommend to them.
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Rountree: I'd rephrase that that they are going to have to think about some things.
Hood: Yeah. Think about some things. We have got not only Ten Mile, but South
Meridian is also on the agenda, so there is some big Comp Plan amendments coming
up and there is just a lot for everyone to take in. So, that being said, we are asking
them to continuing it for two weeks, so that would be the 19th of April. So, probably the
first part of June, first week of June, something roughly in there. Projects are usually
running four to five weeks after Planning and Zoning Commission to get to the City
Council. Yeah. There will be -- the clerk is saying -- you know, we are going to have six
or seven of these, so we are going to have to do them probably two at a time, so they
will be spread out four or five, six, seven weeks. So, I don't know who is going to get
priority. I'll have to talk to Anna about that, but anywhere between four and eight weeks,
probably. From the 19th. I should clarify.
De Weerd: Okay. I guess, Mr. Schultz, I do have one last question for you. Well, I
won't promise it's the last one, but it's the only one I can think of right now. As staff
showed us some of the -- the housing product, they hit on probably one of the areas of
concern that Council has about with the dominants of garages on the street side and
they did offer some -- some examples that they don't all have to look that way and I
guess that's been -- I won't speak for the Council, but I can speak for me personally,
that's been my major concern is the products for the higher density that have come in
front of us that have not alley loaded have lacked imagination. And I know you have
tried to break it up with different treatments and paint colors and that sort of thing, but is
there anyone that builds something different out there that you could find to build in this
development? You know -- and that's a frustrated question and maybe rhetorical, but --
Schultz: I haven't seen this before, so to me this is different, but I know that, yes, the
garages are in the front, so in that way they are similar, but you have two options, the
garage in the front or the garage in the back. I guess you could do one on the side, but
when you get to the higher density, that alley loaded is an option. There are a lot of
quirks when we start dealing with alleys, as you're aware, with the fire department
issues and some of these other no curbs are allowed in them and they have to be
straight in, so you get into some geometric situations where we are doing alley loadeds
and they get very complicated. Which is unfortunate, because they do deemphasize
the garage. As you noticed in some of our alley loaded products that look good. I think
the architect has done a good job of differentiating every part, so it looks like a different
house, at least, different materials, you could do different colors. We could modulate
the front some and my concern, when we start to talk about enforcing architecture, is --
and the Planning Commission took this tact, was, Matt, here is our four criteria that we
wrote down, like stucco, stone, or brick, you know, emphasize the windows, create
shadows, usable porches, deemphasize the garage. Does that mean do all of them
non-garage? No. We suggest that 20 percent. Now, is that 40 percent? Is that 50? I
mean we are just looking for some number, because the most efficient way to build a
house is this way and we start adding costs, but we like to provide a variety, we like -- I
think the danger is if he show pictures and say you have to build it this way, is the next
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guy going to build it that way and the next guy going to have to build it that way and, you
know, at what point do we tell people exactly what to build. I'm okay with -- with making
-- you know, like Planning Commission and staff did, making -- and Peter Friedman did,
your regional planner, some -- it's in the guide -- Baraya design guidelines. It talks
about stucco, stone, or brick and varying the fronts and things like that and we can do
that. I mean we have done that. We will continue to do that. It's just when you start
getting these -- can you do exact picture, yeah, we could do that exact picture, but how
many do you want, what color do you like -- houses are a very nebulous thing to pin
down when it comes to architecture --
De Weerd: So, the answer is no?
Schultz: What's that?
De Weerd: I just thought I would help simply your answer.
Schultz: If you want us to do those town homes in an alley component, we could do
that.
De Weerd: Well, I'm not saying alley, but have you looked into different ideas, like has
been shown to you up here? I was just out at Mountain Home Air Force Base --
Schultz: I'm not sure those --
De Weerd: -- and I swear if the Airforce base can build attractive housing, I think the
development community can.
Schultz: I'm not sure these are four-plexes here, Mayor. I'm not -- I'm just not -- I
haven't looked at these close enough to see what these are, you know, that they are
shown us. I see pictures that look kind of -- this looks like a single family residential to
me that's -- and we have --
De Weerd: Well, I just asked if you had looked at other ideas.
Schultz: We are trying the best we can --
De Weerd: And that was just my question.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: We can get rid of those garage dominated fronts by not allowing 30 and 40 foot
wide lots. Anytime -- I mean I will guarantee you that these aren't on 30 or 40 foot lots
that you're showing right here. When you get a 30 foot garage, what are you going to
have on a 40 foot lot and you got a four foot setback? That's not the -- in defense of the
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developer, that's isn't their fault. That's the four people's fault right here. And that's
what the planners are shoving at us now.
Schultz: You know, if you say we don't want 30, 40 foot lots, we can live with that, too.
We are just trying to make everybody happy to get --
Bird: If I had my way we would have hundred foot lots on everything.
Schultz: I know.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: I would prefer half acre myself, but--
Schultz: So would I.
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: A question for you or Kent. Thinking out loud, it's important for me -- and I
know for the rest of the Council, with regards to this particular area and the Ten Mile
plan, we think that we have got it pretty much pinned down. But there is still a public
process and review from Planning and Zoning is of critical importance. To me the rest
of the Council I'm sure -- and my thinking out loud is if this matter gets continued now, it
might be two months. To allow that processing to go through -- because I'd hate to --
De Weerd: Undercut.
Borton: Yeah. You sort of -- you sort of might be undercutting that process and the
valuable input that the Planning and Zoning provides to us -- and I don't expect there to
be any drastic changes. I think the Ten Mile plan has been combed through extensively
well, but that is an important part of what we do and so do you have any reaction to --
Schultz: It's disappointing, but I'm not going to stand up here and draw a line in the
sand and say you either got to vote for me or against me tonight. I'm not into those kind
of runs anymore. My whole -- I'd rather -- if it's important that we -- that we wait to make
everybody feel a hundred percent sure and, then, let's do it. If we can say it conforms to
the existing, you have done a good job of transitioning, now, you have done all those
things, then, let's move forward. But I'll leave it up to you to -- I would ask for either a
vote of approval or a continuance, obviously. Those are my choices.
Borton: Okay.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
Schultz: In that order.
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De Weerd: I guess there is three, but he only wants two.
Schultz: We have been at this way too long to let it go down.
Bird: My thoughts', thinking out loud, is I agree with Councilman Borton. If you want a
positive one out of me we are going to continue it. We can sit here and say, yeah, Ten
Mile plan is going to bought off, but we don't know what the public is going to come and
do and we are going to -- we are charged to do what the majority of the public and
what's best for the deal. I might like it, but the public don't. So, if you want a positive
vote out of me, it's not going to be tonight.
De Weerd: And just because Mr. Nary will say -- and it doesn't mean if it's continued
you will get a positive one out of him anyway.
Schultz: Well, I think we found that out earlier; right? I was here for the first one on that
one, so -- yeah, there is no guarantees and we--
Bird: We do like what you have done, Matt, don't get me wrong.
Schultz: In the remand we acknowledged that there was no guarantee when we came
back for you tonight we would get anywhere, but we have --
Bird: We have the cart out and we are waiting to get the horse.
Schultz: But we are so close. The timing has been a little bit unfortunate on my end on
this thing twice now, so they are so close you should wait. If they were six, eight apart,
maybe you can move ahead, but I understand. I do understand.
De Weerd: See, staff reads Council pretty well, don't they?
Schultz: They do. They are getting good. So, as soon as I can get back in front of you
the better. We'd like to be on -- I don't know if it's possible to be on the same hearing or
if it matters to be on a different hearing as that plan or if there is anyway to -- because
we'd like to, if possible, to get going this year still and that would just be our preference
if we could, so--
De Weerd: Well, you're a member of the public; right?
Rountree: He can testify.
Brown: Kent Brown. 1500 East Iron Eagle, Eagle, Idaho. And the only reason I want to
speak is that you talked about the small lots and getting around the garages and other
things and, you know, I think from research we find that people want to live in a
detached home for the most part. I mean Idahoans like their garages, they like their
cars, and they like to be in a detached home, but as these property values for raw
ground have gone up, the challenge that we as planners and developers and City
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Council face is how do we provide that in a smaller piece of property, because that's
one of the bigger elements in them buying a lot and when you're spending a hundred
thousand dollars in Meridian for a lot to build your house on, you know, you're kind of
pricing a lot of the market out of those and so as I go to the different city councils and
different planning and zoning commissions, we are faced with trying to look at that. One
of the things that make it kind of difficult is the zoning ordinances and the building
setbacks and where you're allowed to do that. In some parts of the country one of the
things that they have done and you guys have allowed it, you have even approved one
of my projects where we are proposing to do that, is that in between the homes you
grant an easement to your neighbor to allow them to use that ground. So, instead of
having ten feet, five of it being on one lot and five of it being on another and having a
fence down the middle and not being able to use that ground, because we are building
-- we are meeting a building code requirement, we now grant that to one and allow them
to use up to that area. The key to those things is can we provide privacy. If we can
orient our windows and do those things and so the building community needs to be a
part of the plan approval and I -- you know, I hear Councilman Rountree saying we want
to see elevations and that's going to be a part of making that work. The garages -- you
know, ask ourselves why is the garage out front? Well, the reason the garage is our
front is that they are trying to create the private space behind, that's where your family
room usually is behind your garage and you have that private space in your area and
you kind of go along with having that garage out front.
De Weerd: Well, see, but, Kent, even in those they build the living part of the house in
front of the garage, so the garage is a little bit tucked back, it's not the first thing you
see. So, you know -- and, like I said, we have been -- I have been collecting pictures,
so I could offer different ideas and, yeah, they are not built in this area yet. It's
frustrating. But I know I have heard it from a number of people -- those are ugly places.
Now, they are not ugly to everyone, because someone buys them. Usually they turn
into rentals and the ugly ones I have seen are rentals. So, I just -- I ask that question to
-- and I will continue to ask that question, because it is a challenge that I have to the
development community, find some products that are different, you know, let's see
something different.
Brown: And I know that -- I have got clients that are trying to adapt to that. You have a
building setback for your driveway against your property line. If you can, again, use a
shared driveway and go back using the same space, now you're making that a part of
how you can accomplish that. Doing the key shaped lots or flag lots and, then, making
those face so that the garages are all in that back space and you don't have any
garages facing the front.
De Weerd: Well, we are always looking for new ideas.
Brown: I understand. And it's not that we are not trying. I mean it's -- there is a little
give and take I think in this process and we are listening, it's just going back to the
builders, because they have to be a part of that process. Instead of making a product
that is salable to all generic builders -- I don't how many years -- the nine years I sat at
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the City of Boise, how many times I had the builder come in with his plan and said, you
know, this doesn't fit on that lot and I said, well, change your plan and he says, well, you
understand I do this, I flip it over, that's the only thing I do to this plan and -- and so, you
know, it takes -- it takes a -- kind of a trickle down effect in trying to make that happen
and not that you're not being heard, that's the reason that I stood up, is that we are
hearing you.
De Weerd: Okay. Council?
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I just would comment that I see some refreshing changes in
this, as opposed to the previous application. I'm encouraged to hear Matt say that they
continue to work on the design, the elevations. I'm appreciative of the elevations you
brought and, staff, I appreciate your comments on those. I think you reflect to a large
degree what you have heard from us over the past few months and I would hope that
you got that much of an edge -- probably more of an edge than most people get in
what's going to sell and what isn't. I, like the rest of the Council that have spoken, think
that, you know, we spent a fair amount of time and you spent a fair amount of time in
what was considered a public process to come to a conclusion on the Ten Mile plan.
We are not there yet and it seems to me if we were to take action on this tonight in the
affirmative that we would tell those folks that it was all for naught and we are going to go
ahead and do whatever and if you want something different when you see the Ten Mile
plan in June or in April, whenever it goes to P&Z, this is already taken care of, you can't
comment on that. So, I would like to see us consider deferral and that also gives the
applicant more time to work with their architect and put together some things. I have
got genes that came here from Missouri -- and that's g-e-n-e -- and show me what you
want to do, so we are comfortable with it. We have taken the word on a lot of things
that are out there that we have to look at every day right now and that's probably why
we are getting -- become more sticklers on what it is we are wanting to see in our
community, because we have seen some things that have come to our community on
trust and it didn't pan out. And so I appreciate your effort, Matt, and it was nice to see
driving by there this evening that they have reclaimed the topography out there and you
can hardly tell that there has been anything going on out there.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: Unless there is further discussion, I'd move that we continue Items 11 and 12 --
I'll pick a date that might have wiggle room based on what takes place with P&Z. Let's
say June 19th. That's two months after P&Z's had their two weeks to chew on it and if it
is earlier, that's fine. But for now say June 19th.
De Weerd: Do I have a second?
Rountree: I'll second that.
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De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to continue Items 11 and 12 to June
19th, 2007. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 13:
Amendment to Ordinance No. 07-1121 A: AZ 04~027 Request for
Annexation and Zoning of 4.5 acres from RUT to R-8 zone for Christian
Family Matters. Inc. by Don Weber - east of South Linder Road and
south of West Overland Road:
De Weerd: Okay. Amendments -- Item No. 13 is amendment to Ordinance No. 07-
1121A. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this is one here because they had the
wrong attachment when we passed it, so when it went to the -- to the recorder the
attachment had gotten lost somehow and a different attachment was sent, so that's why
it's back in front of you. To clean up.
De Weerd: So, would I just need a motion to--
Bird: Approve the amendment?
Nary: Right.
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve the amendment to Ordinance 07-1121A, request for the
annexation and zoning of 4.5 acres from RUT to R-8 zone for Christian Family Matters,
Incorporated.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to approve Item 13. All those in favor
say aye. All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIES: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Mr. Berg was there something that we needed to do on Item 9 about a
resolution?
Berg: Well, Madam Mayor, this item here -- this is an amendment -- amended
ordinance that we are wanting to pass. The legal description was not correct. It didn't