HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 05-15 Special
Meridian City Council Special MeetinQ
May 15. 2002
The special meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:30 P.M.
on Wednesday, May 15, 2002, by Mayor Robert D. Corrie.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Bill Nary,
Cherie McCandless.
Others Present: Steve Siddoway, Shari Stiles, Bill Nichols, Tom Kuntz, Brad
Hawkins-Clark and Will Berg.
Item 1.
Roll-call Attendance:
X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary
X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird
X Mayor Robert Corrie
Corrie: This will be a continuation of the May 1, 2002 special meeting. Public
Hearing on the proposed amendment of the Comprehensive Plan for the City of
Meridian. At this time, I will open the continued Public Hearing and ask to have
roll call. Mr. Berg.
Item 2.
Adoption of the Agenda:
Item 3.
Continued Public Hearing from May 1, 2002: Proposed
Amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian:
Corrie: I want to welcome everybody here this evening. Some of the ground
rules here, this is a continued Public Hearing. What we will do is have the first to
speak will be the staff and what some of the changes are, where we are at this
present time. We have a sign up sheet if you want to speak. (Inaudible) to sign
up. If after we go through that, if there's anyone who hadn't done the sign-up
sheet, you can have your say as well. Try to limit, if we can, to three minutes. If
you've already testified, we have it on record. We would appreciate it you didn't
go over it again. We have all the testimony but if you have something new that
you'd like for us to hear, don't hesitate to do that. As you come up, we will swear
you in. Then you give us your name and address for the record so we know who
is doing the talking. At this time-
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I just wanted to let you know that I was contacted by Mary Jane
Bennett. Hopefully, she's here tonight. Yes, she is. I just explained the process
to her and encouraged her to bring her comments to public testimony tonight. So
I just wanted to claim that I was contacted and did have a brief discussion.
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May 15, 2002
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Corrie: Okay. Also, for the record, we did receive a letter from Robert C. Horton.
Is he here tonight? We did have a letter from you and if you want to give
testimony tonight, you're welcome to do it. Any other comments from Council, at
this time? Staff?
Hawkins-Clark: Here we go. Are we on there? Okay. Thank you, Mayor.
Members of the Council, I just wanted to hit a couple of preliminary, somewhat,
housekeeping items. There are copies of the memo that we have distributed on
the back tables that each of the Council has received but it's also here on the
board. We do also have two maps that are posted out in the foyer area that we'll
be addressing later that are blow-ups that, certainly, someone could go to the
back foyer area and review in more detail. Before I go through, staff has
received their, we understand to be two, significant areas that have come to our
attention since the May 1 st hearing. Before going into too much on the proposed
text, I just wanted to hit those two areas. I don't know if we should do that maybe
on the map or-well, I just wanted to hit those two. One of the areas the staff
has had several comments from and actually met with-addresses the corner,
the southwest corner of Eagle Road and Ustick Road. The plan that the Council
reviewed before had this designated as mixed-use community. The property
owners were concerned about the standards that go with that designation. The
proposed standard had it as a maximum 25 acres of commercial or non-
residential could be used in that, could be proposed or developed, in that area
there. The southwest corner. We have proposed a modification to that that
would allow upwards of 25 acres of commercial in that area. Before it was
restricted to the entire block of, I believe, seven or eight parcels there. So, we
just wanted to make clear to the Council and any public that might be present on
that particular corner, that we have modified that standard. Did you want to add?
Stiles: Mr. Mayor. Council. We had changed that because the neighbors in that
area, particularly, had brought it to our attention that they didn't think it was
equitable. For example, the first person that might be continuous has a property
of roughly 22 acres and the way it was formatted or the way it was formulated in
the plan would say that that one property owner could go ahead and develop all
22 acres as commercial. Then the next person would come in and could only do
three more acres, which would leave the corner area, which is zoned by Mr. Lyle
Cobb and some of those other areas that are not likely to be residential to be
limited to a residential. We did want to keep that cap of 25 acre maximum and
the 200,000 square foot maximum for the Neighborhood Centers only that are in
that mixed-use community area. So that would include, not only this corner, but
also the other areas within the plan. Particularly, where Dennis Baker happens
to own-he has quite a few properties down where the Pine extension would be.
That is not likely to only develop his 25 acres of commercial or office and the rest
residential. We have the Touchmark Center that has already been approved with
more than 25 acres of commercial and office area. There are a couple of other
areas that are designated as mixed-use community that aren't necessarily within
those Neighborhood Centers. We got the neighbors a little riled up and worried
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May 15, 2002
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and we hope that change will-they will consider that fair. We would still
consider all of the uses to be there to be through a conditional-use process.
Another area that I just would like to touch on before Brad continues with his
memo was the issue of the area of impact. We have taken out some of our area
of impact and moved that line anticipating approvals that have not yet been
officially sought through the city. Particularly, the Caven roughly 40 acre piece at
the northeast corner of Ustick and Eagle and the Ramon Yorganson piece which
is roughly ten, eleven acres, I think, ten acres just south of Chinden on the very
edge of our area of impact. In talking to Ada County, they say they will require
that the appropriate public hearings be held before they consider those as being
out of our area of impact. Since it is more of a policy decision, I'd like the
Council's input on putting those back into the area of impact and then waiting for
those parties to go through the appropriate steps to actually get out of our area of
impact. I think the way we've drawn it now by deleting them from our area of
impact, presupposes a decision is made by the Council that I don't think we want
to get in the habit of doing in the future. It should certainly be more of a process
than standing before the City Council and asking and just continuing and going to
the other jurisdiction. Tricia Nelson has also had discussions with Wayne Gibbs
at Boise City. In the case of the Ramon Yorganson property, he has submitted
applications for annexation and subdivision. Mr. Gibbs direction to the City
Council will be to hold off on those decisions until they go through the appropriate
process to get out of our area of impact. I'd just like you to think about that and I
guess our recommendation would be to keep those in the area of impact until the
appropriate process is followed. Thanks.
Hawkins-Clark: There was one other area before going into the text that we had
received quite a bit of feedback from on. That was if you go down the Meridian
Road Overland intersection area. A couple of properties being questioned are on
the east side of Meridian Road south of Overland. Calderwood Drive is the local
street that abuts these properties to the north. The Elk Run Subdivision is there
on the west side of Meridian. Running Brook Estates Subdivision abuts there to
the east. That's the Ten Mile drain that courses there with their proposed
pathway. Apparently, the property is somehow been marketed and/or posted as
having a commercial designation. The properties there south of Calderwood, as
you can see, have a medium density residential designation on them. It has
shown medium density since the first draft was shown. We have not received
any written requests, to staff's understanding, to modify the medium density
residential. It remains that. There have been no requests to change it to the
office or the commercial or any other designations. I know there was some
concern about the future uses of what could be there. For the most part, we
anticipate some form of residential. Of course, the plan development option is
always there where somebody could propose to put some form of office or
commercial or non-residential up on Meridian Road. But that would require a
completely new application process that everyone within 300 feet would be
notified if an application were ever submitted. As it stands today, it's medium
density residential and is already actually in the City limits, zoned for R-4. That
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May 15, 2002
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would be a maximum of four houses per acre, which would, for the most part, be
single-family detached houses. Just wanted to clarify that.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Brad, if that's already annexed and zoned, what we have traditionally
been doing is trying to reflect the current zoning in it. So it's not colored the way
it's zoned then. Is that how I understand it?
Hawkins-Clark: Medium density residential as it's in our text is three to eight. If
it's R-4, that would put it in the--Iow density would be your three and below.
De Weerd: Under three.
Hawkins-Clark: You're three and below. It certainly could be below In the
medium density.
De Weerd: And it still stands, as I understand it from what Steve suggested or
explained last meeting to help bring us up to date, clarify, is you can go up one or
down one. Is that correct?
Hawkins-Clark: Correct.
De Weerd: So this property could develop at three or under or it could also step
up to eight and above.
Hawkins-Clark: Correct. The difference there is that since this one is already in
the City, it would require a re-zone in order to do that.
De Weerd: I just wanted clarity on that.
Hawkins-Clark: As far as the text portions of the memo go, the-at your last
meeting, you did review the proposed changes that you had at your special
workshop at the Wastewater Treatment Plant. Since the May 1 st meeting, there
have been a few issues that have come up. What I'd like to do is hit the main
new areas that are of some significance, which are in the bold font. Then
discuss along the way. The first area before going into the text policy changes
that we've received since the last meeting, are some proposed map changes.
Staff is aware of; I believe there are now six of those. The first one is from a
Malong Havesda, which is proposing to expand the Old Town area to the west
boundary of Five Mile Creek. This is at the east end of State Avenue. This
would incorporate about nine additional lots. We are in agreement with that. I
believe Steve did review that, as well, with Lila Hill, so we're suggesting that
would be a good change to expand the Old Town designation. The second map
request changes that we've received, is from Idaho Power. As you know, they've
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May 15, 2002
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got the sub-station that's under construction now at the corner of Stoddard and
Overland Road. It was designated the entire 20 acres as quasi-public to reflect
Idaho Power's ownership. There is currently an option on the property to
purchase the northern 12 acres from Idaho Power, which, of course, would make
it a non-quasi public because it would be going to a private party. The proposed
change there is the 12 acres north of the Hardin Drain to go to a mixed-use
neighborhood. That one, staff is also in support of. They have been made
aware that they cannot develop that until sewer and water are made available.
As you know, that's part of the Black Cat Trunk extension area. The third and
fourth requests that we've gotten since the last meeting is related to the
proposed Subway site there in Magic View Subdivision. They're proposing to
change the designation to the proposed Subway from an office to a mixed-use.
That's coming from Blaine and Cynthia Jacobson and then Cornell Larson has
also submitted a request. Staff's feeling on that is that it's been approved the
Conditional Use Permit through the City already. There is a signed development
agreement on that property. It has a limited office zone as it is and it's currently
approved with that zone, so given the history on that property, our sense was it
wouldn't be necessary to change the Comprehensive Plan to show that. Related
to that is number five. The request from Winston Moore to change the
designation of that entire parcel on Magic View. As you might recall, Subway is
the southern 100 feet or so and then it left some vacant land north of that to the
St. Luke's extension. Winston's request is to change that balance of that five-
acre property. We have the same recommendation to not support that.
Particularly since considerable testimony had been received in opposition to any
uses except single-story office. There is an existing Conditional Use Permit on
that five acres and a development agreement that says they will have the single-
story. In terms of the Green Hill Estates property owners, we felt that could stay.
If it was going to be changed in the future, it could be done through a
Comprehensive Plan amendment process. Those are our recommendations
there. The last one is, I guess, we had not received until tonight. The letter from
Robert Horton received today, dated May 14th, is a part of that mixed-use
community designation that we talked about earlier on Eagle and Ustick.
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council: The letter from Robert Horton was in regards to
his approximately five-acre piece at the end of Broadway. There's currently the
Precision Log Craft Homes down there. They had apparently expressed some
interest in his property. He's really not aware of what he wants to do at this point.
He just wanted his options left open so that he could develop that as something
other than the medium density residential. We did agree to recommend
changing that area to the mixed-use community that would allow some other
uses for that entire area. Currently, a lot of it is pasture land. At least the
properties that front on Pine Street. That would be our recommendation. To
change that area to the mixed-use community. Hopefully, that would take care of
his concerns with his piece.
Hawkins-Clark: I think those are the written requests that we had received for
map changes since the May 1 st hearing. We had given some responses to
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May 15, 2002
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those. Certainly, we recognize there may be some other properties tonight,
verbally, that we haven't heard about. Those are the main ones that were in
writing. As far as the-a couple of the highlights on the proposed text changes to
our March draft plan. We kind of organized these by chapter. There are some
grammatical and fairly minor things in here because the consultants are going to
use this to update the plan and get it published. The first couple of items are
related to the demographics. Dale Rosebrock of Intermountain Demographics
did take the census 2000 numbers and made some revised projections and
updates. Those are all attached to your packet. I won't go through most of
those. He's made the tables and those are there. They basically just reflect
2000 census. On page three, Item number 13, there is in the text of the Camp
Plan, as you know, a collector list. Should future collector roadways be in our
Comprehensive Plan, they do not require platting based on our zoning ordinance.
Knowing that there's a need for a new collector roadway between Pine and
Commercial Court, this is on the east side of Eagle Road. Crucial Technologies
is down that street, another is-it's just a pretty congested area. So we're
suggesting that a new north/south collector roadway be in that quarter mile there
between Pine and Commercial. If it's shown in the Comprehensive Plan, it would
help to avoid the need to go through any kind of formal platting in the future to
just do the roadway. We wanted to insert that. Seventeen, eighteen and
nineteen all relate to a couple of updates to the Parks and Recreation facility
section. While we're on some of the Parks and Recreation area, Tom is here to
talk about a couple of changes that he's got.
Kuntz: Thank you, Mayor and Council. I'll try to be brief. The memo I've handed
out tonight outlines the fact that in the last couple of weeks, we've met
extensively with the Planning and Zoning Department to try and address the
discrepancies between the Park's Action Plan, which is currently under adoption
also, and the City's Comprehensive Plan. We found one substantial difference,
in that the action plan really addresses Park needs in the City through the year,
approximately, 2025. It does not address Park Land needs through build-out. As
you can see, our projected population at build-out, and these figures have been
produced by the Planning and Zoning staff. What's so funny? Is this not on?
De Weerd: No, it's on. I wonder where we get 170,000 residents in Meridian.
That's really frightening.
Kuntz: The Planning and Zoning staff is prepared to support these numbers.
De Weerd: I look forward to that.
Kuntz: If I could continue. Based upon those numbers, if we want to have an
average of three acres of land per thousand-right now, at the end of summer,
we'll be at about 2.88. But if we want to adopt a three acres per thousand
standard at build-out, we will need 510 acres of Park Land. Our current plan with
the existing parks that we have, will give us 384 acres of Park Land. Which
means that at build-out, we will need an additional 126 acres that is not in our
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May 15, 2002
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action plan right now. Or five 25 acre parks or six 20 acre, however you want to
look at it. The concern by both the Planning and Zoning and Park staff is that if
we don't add those five or six community parks now to this Comprehensive Plan,
when we have an opportunity to work with developers to make that those parks
get built in place prior to development, we'll lose the ability to negotiate those
items. We have a map attached to that memo with suggestions where those five
future park sites could be located. With that, I would stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: If staff wouldn't mind kind of detailing where we came up with the
170,000 people, I'd really appreciate it.
Hawkins-Clark: Mayor. Members of the Council. This, as you know, the whole
area of demography, some people think you can take a crystal ball and be much
more accurate than any kind of calculated effort is. This is simply our best crack
and we mainly started this thinking when Tom Kuntz noticed a couple of these
differences and wanted to get some projections. Generally, I could just show you
where that number came from. As you can see, there are one, two, three, four,
five, six, seven categories under residential that are either all designated 100%
for housing or a portion of it could be housing. The proposed residential acreage
number is based on the actual base map parcel data that is provided through
compass in the Assessor's office. Those acreages are how much, for example,
6,048 acres of low density designated land in our area of impact. Then you just
go right on down that category. 10, 508 of medium density land. High density,
445 acres, etc. Each of those residential categories, we have a proposed gross
density. Gross meaning, it doesn't account for taking out roads and open space
out of that gross. Schools and parks were. So then, if you multiply the proposed
acreage by the number of dwelling units per acre, you get that fourth column,
which is the number of dwelling units. The footnotes on the bottom show you
how we arrived at the total number of persons. The low and medium density-
2.98 persons per household. That's a census 2000 figure for owner occupied
housing. So, 9,071 dwelling units, assuming 2.98 people per household, gives
you 27, 032 individuals. The main factor that's different on these-well, there's
two factors that are different for each of these categories. The proposed gross
density, as you can see for the medium is three and one half dwelling units per
acre. To give you a couple of examples, Baldwin Park, which was recently
approved, had 3.7 I believe. The Heritage Commons, which was recently
approved by Planning and Zoning Commission, had a 3.85. The 3.5, we feel, is
pretty accurate for the medium density. Obviously, that's the largest land use
category on our map. There's 10,500 acres that would estimate out to 109,592
persons. So, the gross density factor is one difference on each one. The other
main difference is for those three mixed-use categories. The way that the policy
is drafted right now, there is a certain percentage of land that can go for
residential and non-residential. The mixed-use neighborhood, we assumed, we
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May 15, 2002
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looked at those neighborhood areas and basically we thought about five-six of
those could go to some form of residential use. The majority of it being
residential with the commercial just right out on the artery ways. Then it kind of
steps down. The mixed-use community would have less residential. The mixed-
use regional would only, potentially, have fifteen percent. These numbers are
completely estimates until these areas are built, of course, and we actually have
applications proposed on them. They are based, somewhat, on a couple of
applications that we've received so far. That's the basis.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Now, this is an average out over the total number of acres in our
area of impact?
Hawkins-Clark: Correct.
De Weerd: Does it take into account the current build out and our current City
Limits?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes.
De Weerd: How many acres does that area encompass?
Hawkins-Clark: I can't tell you the exact acres of the existing-the 2000 census
has it 34,900 population in existing City Limits. I believe our City Limits are
something like eleven square miles. I think Ross Dodge encompassed
(inaudible) calculation. It's between eleven and thirteen square miles in the
existing City Limits. There's approximately 40-41 square miles in the total area
of impact. Yes. All of these numbers incorporate existing City Limits.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Brad, I think I heard you say that the proposed residential acreage
includes space that would become roads or open space by our ordinances that
already exist. Is that right?
Hawkins-Clark: That's correct.
Nary: Do you have an idea of the percentage because, obviously, that makes
the number on the other end inflated since, if we're going to reduce that, for
example, if medium density is 10,000 acres, what we're going to reduce that by
ten percent open space and ten or fifteen percent for roads. It seems like
(inaudible) is not going to add up.
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May 15, 2002
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Hawkins-Clark: It's actually about 20 percent for roads and five percent for open
space. Our densities take that into account. If we were using net densities,
these numbers would be much higher. Our low density would be more in the
neighborhood of two and a half to three, our medium would be in the four to five
and high density would be certainly higher than ten, closer to 15 to 20. We did
factor in allowance for roads and open space in the gross density factor.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: So, right now we're about a third of the way to build-out as of the last
census, yet we're at close to 35,000. You're suggesting the rest of the area of
impact, which is another two thirds; we're going to grow by 155,000? Not that
much, 135,000? Are you taking into account commercial and industrial areas as
well? Existing?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes. And all of the ones proposed in the Camp Plan, too. Not
just the ones that are existing. We simply took the calculations based on areas
shown in the Comprehensive Plan for those specific categories. If I could just
draw your attention to insert number four, which should be the last page of the
packet. Insert number four at the top. That's the approximate future land uses in
the impact area. That table shows the land uses that are on the latest map that
you had looked at. It's showing 64.7 percent of the total area of impact is
residential, 5.38 commercial, 0.7 office, Old Town is about one percent of the
total area of impact, etc, on down the line there. In terms of answering your
question, Councilwoman De Weerd, about the commercial and the other
categories, these acreages are strictly the acreages that have some form of
residential development potential.
Nary: Mr. Mayor. Using that same table, I would just point out, the acreage,
you'll see they translate across with the low density, medium density and high
density. They're all there. When you get down to the mixed-use, you look at
mixed-use regional for example, there's 2,194 acres. But in our table, we're
saying that only 329 acres of those 2,000 are even planned according to this
chart for residential. We're saying the other 1,800 will be commercial or
industrial or some other non-residential use. We have tried to factor in those
existing and planned commercial and industrial and office uses.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad, on this insert four, would you mind telling me how this added up to
26,000. In the first three figures, it's 32,000 acres. These are the 16,000, the 10
and 4 add up to that.
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May 15, 2002
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Hawkins-Clark: Correct.
Bird: Okay.
Hawkins-Clark: Correct. There are three indented categories. Residential,
mixed-use and public. You just have to take the sub-total of each of those.
Corrie: I might interject something here. Tammy was questioning 177,000. It
seems it might be a little high but if you figure that ten square miles in the
northwest corridor, the population they think would be between 55,000 and
65,000 people. If you add approximately 40,000 we're looking at right now,
you're at 100,000 people just in probably 15 to 25 years. This is a build-out.
This is a-I think it might be a little high but certainly makes mass transit look
better.
Bird: Mr. Mayor, if you take that in, though, those 12 square miles up there,
throw the acreage in those 12 square miles with the existing acreage, you're
within probably 4,000 acres of being the total build-out. So you have 55, which
are projected in that 12 square miles and that is if they go with a lot of high
density. Add it to what we've already got, which is 35, you're pushing 90 and
then you've got another 4,000, which you average that out. I would say, in our
build-out, if we get to 120,000, we'd be lucky.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: We have some topography issues in the southwest corner that you'll
never have that kind of density figures. I'd rather be a little bit more conservative
in some of these numbers. Either that, or I'm going to start doing massive land
use changes because 170,000 people is just-
Corrie: San Francisco is up and down so it's got more-
De Weerd: Well, I don't live in California.
Siddoway: I don't want to kill the messenger. I think if we look this, this is just a
projection, not a prediction. All we're talking about is projections based on raw
formula, mathematical numbers. Realistically, are we going to have 177,000
people here in 25 years? I doubt it. I really do. But all we're using these
numbers for is to give us some idea of how many parks do we think we need to
have, what kind of parks we're going to have, do we think-is that a realistic
number no different than I don't think 25 years ago people would have thought
almost 40,000 people would be living here now. I think these are just projection
numbers. They're just a formula thing. I don't think it's a big deal to get too hung
up on. I think what Mr. Kuntz was raising, it's just using those numbers based on
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May 15, 2002
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what our Park Camp Plan is, how many parks do we think we need to add on to
this as potential. We had lots of parks on the last Plan and we didn't build them
all. Just having them on there does anything other than it keeps it on the table,
keeps it in sight so that we know that's what we're trying to accomplish. We may
or may not get to everyone of those things. That may not happen. We may
never pass this plan until we have time to start another one it seems like so I just
don't want to get too off the track just on those numbers when I think they're just
projection.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I believe that these are just an asterisk that says there could be a park
here. This will be noted on the map itself. I want people believing that the dye in
the wool, this is exactly where they're going to be. That exact acre right there is
going to be a park. We need to make sure that that's clarified so we don't have a
misunderstanding. I believe that's what Tom had planned on it.
Corrie: Steve.
Siddoway: A final comment I would have is just to be clear. We are not in any
sense trying to say that in 25 years, 177,000 people will live here. We're saying
that if every single piece of land developed that is in our impact area that that
would be the number. It will be well beyond 25 years before that happens.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Just one last parting jab, I guess. Over the last couple of years, we
keep getting beat up in the newspapers because we're not meeting our projected
densities. That's why I think we need to be a little bit more sensitive to realistic
numbers and densities so that we all have a little bit better idea of expectations
and service levels and all of that. Our Public Works Director is not here. I think,
too, that he would cringe at seeing these numbers. Well, he should.
Bird: He would.
De Weerd: I would just like-and I know that our schools right now are very
concerned about the projected numbers and they take these Camp Plan
numbers very serious. They have to plan by them. That's why I'm saying; we
have yet to meet a lot of these targeted densities. Why are we reaching so high
even if the ultimate build-out-
***End of Side One***
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
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De Weerd: --we going for the high numbers when we have yet to reach them,
when all these planning entities are trying to plan by them. When I see a green
dot on a map, I expect a park. We already saw that that is also a big expectation
by our community, as well. That's why I'm saying, if we're going to project
177,000 people and add another 160 acres of park land, as we develop in the
north corridor, expectations are that those parks are going to have to go in. If
we're planning at a higher level of people, then are we over-extending ourselves?
I think we are. That's my only point.
Siddoway: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Steve.
Siddoway: My question then would be; which of those projected densities do you
think are high?
De Weerd: Well, having just seen them tonight, I really haven't even had time to
look at these numbers and outside exactly telling my horror when I see them, I
can't respond to that.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I agree with Councilwoman De Weerd that our projections have been-we
were projected-we had everybody in the City telling me when the 2000 census
come in we were going to be way over 40. We were way under. You can look at
your building permits and pretty well tell what kind of projection you're having.
Our building permits are down 500-600 a year from what they were in 1994 and
1995. We had a great build-out those years. That's how you can tell your
density a lot is what kind of building permits are being picked up.
De Weerd: Well, let's move on.
Corrie: We can talk about that forever, right. I think you're both wrong but-
(inaudible) we can go on about our business and still like each other. I don't
think too many people here is going to find out if we're right or wrong but if they
got some young people out there that would like to be a Councilman and Mayor,
come and talk to me because we're sure going to need you. Okay. Anything
else.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mayor. To be clear about that, that table is not
proposed to be inserted into the Comprehensive Plan. Just to clarify. The whole
reason for that was the number of parks projection. In terms of the others, there
two more text items that are somewhat probably worthy of pointing out that aren't
just grammatical changes for you. There's a paragraph there, item number 23
that is a fairly new, sizeable paragraph that discusses the School District's
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 13 of 54
standards for Elementary School, Middle School and High School sizes and their
estimate of 1,200 acres of land being needed within our area of impact. That's
for K through 12. Those are shown on the future Land Use Map. After meeting
with the School District, we wanted to insert that paragraph there. Page four,
chapter seven, one item that is not listed there but that we wanted to raise to
your attention, page 83 of chapter seven in the text deals with the Urban Service
Planning area. It's not in the memo that's in front of you. It's within the three ring
binder on page 83. There are just two sentences there that, in the City Council's
workshops, haven't really gotten discussed. The Planning and Zoning
Commission did recommend the approval of this change to the Urban Service
Planning area. The sentence that I just wanted to bring to your attention is about
in the middle of that paragraph and it says, If private utilities are constructed, it
will be the City's policy that said private services be constructed to City of
Meridian standards and will revert to the City upon future annexation.
Essentially, what the Planning and Zoning Commission did was, they wanted to
leave the door open for projects such as Powder River, Westborough, and others
that are proposed in the county, outside the City Limits, but within our area of
impact. They left the door somewhat open that the City may receive those kinds
of applications rather than a hard-line; the City will not receive applications such
as those. The Planning and Zoning Commission gave that quite a bit of
discussion and that was not highlighted in red for you in your last draft. I just
wanted to make sure that you're aware of that. Do you feel like it's worthy of
discussion? Are you comfortable with that paragraph?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I hate to dominate the conversation here. I have serious concerns. I
know that the applications that came in front of us that were not contiguous,
which we want to grow from the inside out. The only thing we had to hang our
hat on was that municipal services were required in our area of impact. If you put
in language like this, we would not have a leg to stand on to deny those
applications that are not contiguous to our City. We have, after considerable
testimony on what these independent sewer districts are like or systems are like,
and what the City would be inheriting, thus what the taxpayers would be
inheriting once we were contiguous and had to take those systems over, we don't
know what we would be inheriting and what kind of cost we would have in
acquiring or taking over those systems. By allowing this kind of language, it
absolutely takes our arguments away and that was one of the only arguments
that we really had that the county denied those applications. So, I would have
some real serious concerns about this. I understand what the intent was but
having gone through two applications and testified in front of the county on these,
to not allow them to have them. I am aware that was the only reason that we had
to recommend denial. I would have serious misgivings to include this kind of
language in our Comprehensive Plan.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 14 of 54
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: What, specifically, in that language is a concern?
De Weerd: You're suggesting that if private utilities are constructed that,
basically, it would be okay as long as once we are contiguous that they would
annex in and that the City would then own those systems. That was the whole
concern to begin with. We're not sure what we would be inheriting and by
leaving it at having a requirement to connect to municipal services so that we
could continue to grow from the inside out was really the only thing we had to
back us up.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: The language in here, I believe, protects us. We could still go against the
deals. This says we-we're not going to be inheriting something that isn't up to
our standards. Like we've got a certain one out there right now that once they
come in, we've got a septic system that has got to be redone at taxpayers cost
because it isn't up to standards. Like Councilman Nary, I don't see anything with
leaving that in there. It's not guaranteeing anybody's going to get approved or
not approved through the county. That is strictly the county's decision. We can
go testify, aye or nay, but they're going to make the final decision. Consequently,
we have been pretty fortunate but I don't think it was a sewer system that
stopped it.
De Weerd: Yes, it was. Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary. Which one wants to go? Do you want to go?
De Weerd: I just would caution that there's no definition of standards. That was
a considerable amount of our testimony and I would encourage you to go and
pull those records and the ten pages our staff had in explaining why it was
necessary for municipal services, what the definition of municipal services are.
That, we already had to defend. Try going and defending the definition of
standards. Whose standards?
(inaudible)
Corrie: We have standards. We certainly have standards.
Bird: We absolutely have standards.
Corrie: Sewer standards.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 15 of 54
De Weerd: Okay, but, there's nothing that says those independent sewer district
or independent sewer systems out there. In fact, DEQ had those very same
things. If we're going to have more conversation on this, then Public Works
needs to be here. This was a grave concern with them and I'll tell you what, the
only thing we had to go by is the municipal services and connecting to it. That
was our only leg to stand on.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess I don't have the same concerns that you do, Councilwoman De
Weerd, because all this language does, and the intent of this language at the
Planning and Zoning Commission was, this brings us to the table to talk to these
people and that's all it is. It doesn't require us to annex them. It doesn't require
us to approve it. We are always subject to the mercy of the county and the
county commissioners. They aren't obligated to follow our direction. They can
approve these projects and they have with private, with not private, with septic
systems and the like. Like Councilman Bird said, all this says is we're willing to
talk to people about these things. But, if we are going to consider allowing them,
it puts it on us to be able to show that there's not a good reason and we can't just
hang our hat on a septic and here-the standards are going to be in our
ordinance. They're going to be in our policies. This is just an overall broad
statement of what will we do in considering these applications that are outside of
the City in our area of impact are not going to be contiguous at some point. I
think it's just a discussion point. I don't see it as fearful but I think you're right. It
probably makes sense to have the Public Works Director here to see what his
thoughts are on it. I don't recall if Public Works was at the Planning and Zoning
Commission on this particular point. I guess I don't see this as such an onerous
thing for the City to have. It's simply an ability to have to discuss those things
with developers that want to build something. If they're going to build it to the
City standards that we can assume that system at some point in the future, what
harm does the City have?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: The Public Works Department in their testimony at the county level
and, of course, the City did recommend denial, just as the City Legal has
recommended denial and the application has been approved. The Public Woks
concern was, what kind of systems it would be inheriting. It's not only that. They
plot the subdivision to county standards because in our area of impact
agreement, they don't have to build to City standards. We can put this in our
Camp Plan but they don't have to build to our standards. So there's one
discrepancy. The second one is when we are contiguous to them, they're not
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 16 of 54
required to annex. That's the whole issue that you got into in the City of Boise
and all those people they force annex in, they didn't want to annex in. They had
no reason to annex in. They already had sewer and water through whatever
means, through Boise, and these be islands within the City of Meridian that are in
the county that the City would still serve in most instances other than sewer and
water. With mutual aid, you would still have it create a pocket of controversy with
the first call in and some of the issues they have with some of the county
pockets. We'll have enclaves all around our City because they won't have to
annex in. I just say, why are we going to encourage them to come to the table
when, at this point, we want to discourage that. So why would you put language
in here to encourage it? I don't know. I have had to fight this fight along with our
staff. So staff, if you want to jump in at any time, feel free to. But, I went there as
a spokesperson for this Council that this is something we're against. Now we're
going to contradict it by adding language in that's going to allow it. That's what I
don't understand.
Nary: Mr. Mayor
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: You've raised a couple of different issues. One of them is enclaves. We
have enclaves all over the City now with language that's different. We already
have this problem and there's a different mechanism to deal with that problem. It
isn't just the sewer issue if you're dealing with enclaves. Brad, can you tell me
where in the existing Comprehensive Plan, what we're changing? Can you tell
me which page it is?
Hawkins-Clark: I think it's just a discussion point. I don't think it's a big deal. I
think we are always one vote difference on that Commission to doing what the
Commission wants to do versus what we want to do. If we take a hard-line
position all the time, we will eventually have commissioners there that say, you're
not wanting to develop in your area of impact, you're not trying to be reasonable,
you're not trying to consider anything else, it's one way or no way, we're not
going to support you. We're going to allow those developments to happen and
they're going to happen. So unless we can say, look we tried, we put these out
there to give these people these opportunities and they don't want to meet them,
then I think we have a better situation with the County Commissioners than if we
say, hey, we wrote it in our Camp Plan, tough luck for them. I don't think we're
always going to be that fortunate or always hope that the County Commissioners
are going to be supportive of that.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Members of the Council. There's one thing that needs to
be pointed out and that's the private entity that most often provides water or
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 17 of 54
offers to provide water to these separate, out in the county subdivisions is United
Water. They do not, quote, turn over their systems to municipality when it
becomes contiguous. It would require the City to, basically, exercise its power of
eminent domain to condemn the water system in order to take it over and pay
United Water for the taking of those facilities. So this presupposes something
which would not be easily be done with regard to water. Now with regard to a
sewer district type situation, I'm not sure how that would work. But I know that
United Water's policy is they do not turn their facilities over to municipalities who
annex.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: All the more to my point. All we're doing is coming to the table. If this
private, if this subdivision can only get their water through United Water and
United Water won't do that and won't turn it over to the City and they can't meet
those requirements, then that's fine. Then we're going to deny it. And what are
we going to do? We're going to tell the County Commissioners, we've given
them the ability but they need to go work that out with United Water. That's a
private company. Let them work that out. If they can't do it, they can't do it and
we'll deny it. But, at least we've said, look, we will talk to people and we will
provide them a forum to have this discussion. Right now, we don't have a forum
to have a discussion. We just say tough luck for you and then we hope that two
commissioners are going to support us. Every two years we may not have that
luxury. That's my concern. That's the reason why we've had that. That was the
only reason why this provision was put in that way is to give us that level of
flexibility to at least be able to show that we're trying to meet those needs.
Corrie: Okay, then, with that happy note, we've still some public testimony we
have down here. Anything else?
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council, I'd just like to add that the current Comprehensive
Plan does call for City connection to City owned facilities. Also, as part of those
subdivisions that were mentioned, it is not good planning, it is not orderly
development. The county should not be in the business of urbanizing areas even
if they are within our area of impact. That's the City's job. State code also
makes a reference that areas of impact are for development within City Limits.
That was our main fear. We were having one problem, it shows single-family
residential so anything goes as long as its single-family to well, there's a red dot
down here so we can approve all four corners going commercial and just having
no planning whatsoever out there except for whatever the county might approve.
With the way the current plan is, that was so non-detailed and so poorly written
and so hard to follow that it took us a long time working with staff where the Ada
County staff finally did agree with us. They shouldn't be in the business of urban
development. I know Boise City has a different frame of mind because they
approve those developments hooked up to their services. They encourage that.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 18 of 54
I don't think hopscotching around our area of impact with little pockets of
development is a good idea for anyone. That's kind of where we were coming
from and we worked a long time with the commissioners and with the staff to
come to some kind of understanding that that's where we stood and that's where
we expected to be supported.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Maybe instead of continuing through this, we could take public
testimony and argue later.
Corrie: I'm going to do that. I'm going to take the privilege of the chair. There
are some people out here that would like to talk. Anything else from the staff at
this point? Okay. If we could have the sign-up sheet then we can go from there.
(inaudible) between 1-84 and Amity Road. Let's do between 1-84 and Ustick
Road, we have four people. Let's start with Greg Eagy. If we can keep it to three
minutes because we have a whole bunch of people that want to talk.
Eagy: My name is Greg Eagy and the property that lawn is at 3055 N. Eagle
Road.
Corrie: Just a minute. If you'll raise your right hand. Is the testimony you're
about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you
God?
Eagy: Yes.
Corrie: Thank you.
Eagy: I'm representing Lyle Cobbs, Janet Rue, the Ewing Family and myself,
which is continuous property on the south that we talked about at the corner of
Eagle and Ustick Road earlier. My question is for Shari, to ask for clarification
again because I've heard a couple of different things (inaudible) sitting there of
the mixed-use community classification as it applies to this Eagle Road and
Ustick property. Could you repeat the proposed changes? Specifically, in
regards to the square footage requirements and how they will be different for this
area and also how the acreage requirement will be different for this area from the
standard mixed-use community as its already written. The other question that we
have as a group is, at one time, this was looked at from a regional standpoint and
then went back to the mixed-use community, just changes in it. I'd like to know,
for clarification, why is it still being looked at (inaudible) standpoint?
Stiles: I'm not quite sure I caught quite all that. I will address just the first part.
The way this is written isn't particularly much clarification right now. We realize
that. It was kind of a last minute attempt to clarify it but it needs to be flushed
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 19 of 54
OUt. What we were talking about was that up to 25 acres of non-residential uses
are permitted within the mixed-use community areas shown as Neighborhood
Centers on the future Land Use Map. The mixed-use communities shown as
Neighborhood Centers. That wasn't clarified and I just changed that as you were
talking.
Eagy: Okay, great. So, what you're saying is, that this property would be able to
go over 25 acres.
Stiles: Yes. In mixed-use community areas that are not Neighborhood Centers,
over 25 acres of non-residential uses shall be permitted through the CUP
process. What we need to also add in there was the clarification on the not
limiting those non-Neighborhood Centers areas to the 200,000 square foot
maximum. That is our intent to add that in there. I hope Council is clear on that.
We probably should get the language cleared up so that they know exactly what
they're approving there. But it was our intent to change it. The first part about
the 25 acres and also that more than 200,000 square may be considered through
the Conditional Use process in those mixed-use community areas that are not
within Neighborhood Centers. Does that make--
Eagy: I guess the last question was the regional question. How do you arrive at
this being the three corners that are regional and this not? (inaudible)
Stiles: A part of it was because some of the comments that we did get from the
adjacent neighborhood. They were concerned about buffering up their
neighborhood and because you do immediately abut them. We wanted to make
sure there was a little more control because of the mixed-use regional would not
have to go through a Conditional Use process unless it was otherwise required
through our ordinances. I guess, as far as the other corners, no one objected.
Eagy: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you, Greg. Robert Horton. Is the testimony you're about to give
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Horton: Yes.
Corrie: Thank you. Name and address please.
Horton: My name is Robert Horton. I live at 607 E. Idaho Ave. I need you to
bring that picture you just had back up on there a second ago. I'll make my
comments real brief. First, I want to thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for the
time. I want to just clarify what Shari said.
Corrie: Take that mike with you so (inaudible)
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 20 of 54
Horton: And I don't quite have the right map up here yet, I don't believe. The
last I saw it; it disappeared down off the corner. There we go. I don't know if
Shari was saying that they agreed with my request on just my parcel here or the
other portions as well. I don't know. At the time that I had earlier talked to Shari
and discussed this, I had not been able to talk to one gentleman who owns this
piece or another gentleman who owns this one, this one, this one and this one.
But you should also have a letter of support for the request that I had from the
party that is using this ground for what my request was. If you don't have it
Shari, I can get you one. He gave me a copy and had mailed, actually, two
letters. I did talk to the gentleman who owns this one. He is in a rehabilitation
center up here. We just about lost him a few days ago. He may need his options
open, as well. This guy is in Washington, D.C. and I had five conversations with
him. Technology is wonderful but either his cell phone or walk around phone
was disconnecting us. Basically, all we all wanted was to kind of leave the door
open and not cut off our nose or the City's nose or this guys nose before we get
a chance to really discuss it. If that's what has been recommended, then that's
the end of my request or discussion, I guess. I just wanted the clarification on it.
Corrie: I believe you were recommending mixed-use community?
Stiles: Yes.
Corrie: Does that satisfy what he's asking?
Stiles: Mr. Horton's request was for a light industrial or mixed-use such as
mixed-use RG designation. We did recommend the mixed-use community due
to the surrounding residential uses there. We do not recommend that it be
changed to light industrial because of that residential nature in that area. The
property to the south is the only property that is industrial. There are many things
within the mixed-use community designation that could serve that area well. It
did include those other parcel besides yours, Bob.
Horton: Okay.
Stiles: Clear up to Pine.
Horton: I think that would satisfy the gentleman from the one on the south that
we were talking about here. He also asked on that letter for mixed-use.
Stiles: Steve's bringing up the proposal that we have and that is showing all of
that as mixed-use community including the property that was previously shown
as commercial because of some of the floodway issues through there and also
the fact that, even though it is zoned light industrial, the parcel, the large parcel
that goes clear from Pine to the railroad tracks has been approved under a
Conditional Use Permit for uses such as assisted living, apartments, some office
and nursery in the rear portion of it there which is served more through the
mixed-use community designation than this straight commercial.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 21 of 54
Horton: All we were really asking for, and I wouldn't discuss on the rest of this,
but this gentleman was also just supporting mixed-use. Just to leave the door
open for something in the future. One comment I might make for your discussion
on the density. My mother used to ride that unit behind you here on that thing
and her grandmother homesteaded out here a long time ago. Her grandmother
used to walk a milk cow to Frank Church's grandmother, who lived on Maple
Grove Road and passed two houses on her walk. So, I never expected to see
this many people. Neither did my mother. I don't know what you're going to get
but just-
Stiles: Thank you.
Corrie: You're right, Bob. Keep our eyes open because I've seen it happen. Not
that I like it but I'd like to see us go a lot slower. Okay. Lawrence Musgrave. Is
the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth so help you God?
Musgrave: So help me. I just have a question-
Corrie: Name and address, Lawrence. Name and address for the record.
Musgrave: Oh, 2895 W. Pine Ave. Right now, I'm currently in Ada County. I see
on the impact for mixed-use, the property I have there, three acres there. Is this
correct?
Corrie: On 2895-
Musgrave: 2895 W. Pine Ave.
Corrie: We'll take a look at it here. I think so. You know where it is-yes-west
Pine.
Bird: It's out there by Ten Mile.
Corrie: Is it close to Ten Mile, Lawrence?
Musgrave: Yes. About 300 yards from Ten Mile.
Corrie: Ten Mile and Pine, right there. So, you're where now?
Musgrave: Just about 200-300 yards from Ten Mile, back towards the City.
De Weerd: North or South? South of Pine?
Bird: South on Pine? South of Pine, right?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 22 of 54
Musgrave: Yes.
Corrie: Right in there where the red dot is? Somewhere in there?
Musgrave: About right in there, yes.
Corrie: Okay.
Musgrave: I just see on the map that it showed for mixed. Is that right?
Corrie: Is that mixed-use?
Musgrave: Yes. It is.
Corrie: Yes.
Musgrave: (inaudible) approved or-do I have to go to the county to do anything
or are you-
Corrie: No. We're just saying that a possibility that's what it could be. You're in
the county. You still (inaudible) still what the county says and if you want to
come (inaudible) to the City, our Camp Plan recommends that that be a mixed-
use. If you want it for anything else then you come to the City, if you come into
the City. If you're in the county, you're county.
Musgrave: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Nelson. Nations, I'm sorry. If I butcher up your name, I
apologize already because sometimes I do that. Is the testimony you're about to
give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Nations: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. If you'll give us your name and address, Pat.
Nations: Patricia Nations. 4010 E. Franklin Road. Looking at the new map up
there and the new legend, we're very dissatisfied what our property has been put
on the map as. We asked for mixed-use, which is just below office, and
according to this older map, which we had the last meeting, now we're down
below impact. Very low impact or whatever from your density out there. Those
parcels, right there, they're not the mixed-use that we had talked at the last
meeting.
Corrie: It's mixed-use.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 23 of 54
Nations: But it's on your map of stuff here. This one was (inaudible) office.
(inaudible) I know. This was like last week (inaudible) legend. Can I show that to
you?
Nary: We have that map, ma'am. That's not the existing-(inaudible)
Nations: No, that's not. That's why I'm upset because it's not what this one
shows and where we are now on the legend, we would just prefer, all of us on
those lots there, would prefer that going back to light industrial because this
mixed-use means that anything could go in there down below the very low
density. I mean, that's high impact property there.
De Weerd: And it still is.
Nations: But we've got the mixed-use with what the mixed-use was on here.
They've changed the allocation of it. There are four or five mixed-uses now, is
what I'm saying.
Corrie: Okay. Let Shari-can you-tell us what-
Nations: Yes, because we're not happy.
Stiles: Miss Nations, that is actually gives you more flexibility than the light
industrial. If it were designated as industrial, that's what you do is industrial.
With the mixed-use regional, you have the options of all sorts of commercial,
office, and light industrial. All those opportunities are available to you with that
designation.
Nations: If that is the case, then we're okay with that. But after seeing that on
there, I got nervous because here we said okay that's what we want. So if that is
what it is, then we're okay with that.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Ma'am, were you concerned because of the scale on the colored scale.
That scale doesn't have a relationship to the uses of the property. Those scales
only relate to the colors on the map (inaudible discussion) low density has a
higher-no-that other rank in there doesn't have any significance.
Nations: That shows what I know about reading maps. All right. That's what I
wanted to know. We were concerned when we came in and saw the map and
we just wanted to verify that could be used mixed-use was there for anything that
wanted to be put in there.
De Weerd: Well, within (inaudible discussion)
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 24 of 54
Nary: It's one of the broader definitions.
Bird: It's a broader definition.
Nations: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: There are a few things we don't want to see there but don't' let your
imagination run away with you there.
Nations: Okay. Thank you. That's what I needed to know.
Corrie: Okay. We have Bev Donahue is signed in for mixed-use areas and
incentives and Neighborhood Centers incentives. So, Bev Donahue, are you
here this evening? Why don't we take the mixed-use area and incentives first
and then we'll go to the Neighborhood Centers.
Donahue: Okay. My name is Beverly Donahue. I live at 3775 N. Locust Grove,
Meridian.
Corrie: Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth so help you God?
Donahue: I do.
Corrie: Thank you.
Donahue: Do you want me to repeat that again?
Corrie: No. We got it.
Donahue: You got it.
Corrie: Sorry to interrupt you.
Donahue: No. That's fine. We want to start, first of all, with the mixed-use. My
question is what is the difference between mixed-use and multiple use?
Hawkins-Clark: Just for clarification. Multiple use, where did-we don't have a
designation called that as on the proposed map.
Donahue: We don't? So then mixed-use would be commercial, professional
buildings is that-
Hawkins-Clark: Correct. It could include residential. We'd be happy to give you
a copy of the draft plan that gives you about a page of what's involved with that.
Essentially, it encourages a mix of just about all uses you can imagine except for
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 25 of 54
industrial. It's a combination of your retail, your office, or your high-density
housing, things like that. Okay. The Neighborhood Centers is the one that you
were in? Okay. That is proposing a maximum of 100,000 square feet of retail in
that whole area. The rest of it would be high density housing, meaning things
like patio homes and cottage homes and potentially apartments or town homes
or things like that. A combination of those.
Donahue: Okay. Because I'm in section 31. I don't know if you have that over
there. It's right there. My property is that little square and my neighbors' is the
four acres by the firehouse. Yes, right there. We're technically circled in with the
community center but they're building the community center and we're not in the
community center. We just wanted to know if our property could go to mixed-use
and then we have different options, due to the fact, we're not going to be in the
community center.
De Weerd: That's a good question.
Hawkins-Clark: It actually is mixed-use. It's that tan color represents what the
mixed-use area is and it appears-right-so, all of that sort of tan color is already
a mixed-use designation. If you're looking for the mixed-use, that's what is
currently designated.
Donahue: Okay. Then my next question is, in these community centers,
wanted a clarification. Now is a community center a subdivision?
Hawkins-Clark: A subdivision is, as defined by code, just the process of dividing
land. It does not necessarily mean that it's residential. It could be dividing land
for the purposes of commercial or dividing land for the purposes of offices.
Subdivision just simply means the process of platting. It doesn't necessarily
imply a use.
Donahue: Okay. So that means they can do anything they want in those
community centers. That's what you're saying. It could be professional. It could
be housing. It could be-I want to make sure I got this right. He's going to help
me see.
Hawkins-Clark: There are about three pages of policies related to the
Neighborhood Centers talking about design guidelines. It is intended to be a
higher density residential area. It says it will be at least eight units per acre in the
policies. There is a small, central commercial office area that is intended to be
well connected into the residential area which would be characterized by small
blocks, interconnected streets and so, certainly residences make up a large
portion of what is shown as a mixed-use neighborhood designation which is what
this is.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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Donahue: So then my question would be on safety. Are these community
centers going to have the City requirements for the standard lot size for R8, the
standard house size for-why not?
Hawkins-Clark: No. Because they're expected to be more dense than that.
Donahue: But then it's not an R-8. If they were to be denser than an R-8, why
wouldn't it be like an R-10, R-12, or an R-16 then?
Hawkins-Clark: It could be.
Donahue: Where?
Hawkins-Clark: We don't have those zoning designations but they could be
those densities.
Corrie: It's not zoned an R-8 or R-15 or R-40 but you could build apartments in
there or you could put a house in there or what have you. But that whole area is
a higher density area but they're not an R-8 or and R-14 or an R-40 designated
there. It's just a Neighborhood Center, which allows you to have that in there.
De Weerd: Now we can figure out where the 170,000 people are going.
Corrie: That's why I said. If we have transportation and also makes you better
for, to pay for the bus or whatever it happens to be. But that's another sideline.
Donahue: So then my question would be, you see ten acres, five acres and one
acres behind this whole thing and where's the buffer zone for this high density
where all these people are living out in agriculture land? Is there any buffer? Or
is it just a circle?
Corrie: I think I'll let you answer that one.
Hawkins-Clark: The buffer is in the transitioning densities. You have the more
intense densities at the center itself and then it transitions out to medium density
residential, which is three to eight units per acre and then out again to low
density residential, which is less than three units per acre. How it relates to
existing residences is on a case-by-case basis with each project. When these
projects are asking for annexation, adjacent property owners are notified and
they are able to come and testify.
Donahue: Right. So you're saying, I have one acre and I can have three people
in my back acreage for backyard. Or eight-I could have more so-
Hawkins-Clark: Sure.
Donahue: So where I have one acre, all of the sudden, I can have high density.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 27 of 54
Hawkins-Clark: Yes.
Donahue: And then there's no buffer zone for the people that have been there
before, with their acreages. Because you just put a circle like that and it's too
bad for the people who have acreages with no buffers.
Hawkins-Clark: The site specific buffering for existing residents would have to
come through on a site-specific project application. They're not built into this,
you're right.
Donahue: Is there going to be any, I guess, regulations or any buffer, some kind
of buffer thing for the people that exist there that all of the sudden, all their
property is being changed to protect them, I guess, for their quality of life. Is
there anything in the Camp Plan on that?
Hawkins-Clark: In the landscape ordinance, there are required buffers between
different land uses. If a commercial part of this were butting against you, they
would have to put in a landscape buffer, depending on its intensity, of 20 to 35 or
40 feet depending on its use. Residential-
***End of Side Two***
Donahue: --1,100 square foot unit right next to 2,000 square foot homes. Is that
just the way it goes?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor. I think we're getting confused between what the
Comprehensive Plan does and a very specific how would an application come in
pursuant to this plan that might affect your property. The steps that a developer,
for example, if a developer bought that piece of property that's the bigger chunk
in the southern part of that Neighborhood Centers and wanted to develop
something that fit within the Neighborhood Center concept. There are very
specific steps that that developer would have to go through in order to bring that
forward to the City. Street layouts, all of those things that are associated with a
development. As a property owner, I don't what footage is, but if you're within
300 feet, you get notice on that application with all the specifics. You could come
in and look at the application. Even though you're a county resident, you would
still have the right to be heard by this Council and by the Planning and Zoning
Commission. All this does is say this is what the City thinks would fit there but
that does not necessarily mean that it's anything soon. It does mean that you-it
does not change the actual application procedures and who has to be notified
and a right to a hearing and all those things. So there are specific things. You
can look and see whether that's something that you think fits with your existing
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 28 of 54
use. Maybe there's some part of it that doesn't or you want to see some
increased buffering or something like that. You would have the right to come in
and ask for that. So, you could sit down with staff at some point and they could
kind of tell you, here are the steps a developer would have to go through. Just
because it says Neighborhood Center does not necessarily mean that it's-okay,
I can do anything I want. I buy that ground. I just fit the Neighborhood Center.
There are a lot of hoops that have to be jumped through and one of those hoops
is notice to those surrounding property owners so they have an opportunity to
review and comment on that application.
Donahue: Right. I just want to make sure as property owners and where we've
lived for 12 or 15 years, whatever, that even though we're doing this new Camp
Plan, that there's some protection, some buffer zones and some understanding
where, you know, we don't want to move or whatever the case may be. You
move the little circles, you can put in all the colors you want but there are still
people that have their livelihoods around. It used to be agriculture. I just wanted
to make sure that that's in the Camp Plan.
Corrie: Rightfully so. You should have a say in that. That's what it's for. You're
absolutely right. If you live there and you have something come in, they be
notified, you'd have your say in what you like it or don't like it. It would be up to
the Council and you to work that out. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Miss Donahue, one of the things that-I see some other folks out here
tonight that haven't been to some of our prior meetings that we've had on this
discussion but some of the specific questions you're asking are things that are
really contained in the ordinance, not contained in the Comprehensive Plan. The
whole intent of a Comprehensive Plan is to give a really broad view of future land
use, giving you options with your property, as well as your neighbors' options. It
doesn't mean that just because this has this color on it, if this is your house then
the piece next to it is going to have a 15-unit per acre apartment complex
tomorrow. It just means that there are a variety of uses within that Neighborhood
Center that somebody can apply to use. All of the things, like Mr. Nichols said,
still require notice of hearing and a bunch of other things to happen before they
do. Buffering is real hard to answer your question tonight because it depends on
what it is. If it's an office building that dentist's office that are only open until 6:00
or 7:00 at night, the buffering might be different than if it's a commercial store. It
varies on what they're asking, how close it is. They may put some natural buffer
landscaping between your property and theirs because that's what they want it to
look like. Or they may want a parking lot that's right next to your property. We'd
want some buffering if that was the case. It just depends on what they're asking
for from what they're bringing in. We certainly turn down projects that people
bring in. Just because they fit what goes there, doesn't necessarily mean they fit
what the City may want at that time. So, we do turn those down as well. There's
always that opportunity to have that discussion. This Camp Plan doesn't have
necessarily all the specifics you're asking about.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 29 of 54
Donahue: Okay. Then it's just a general thing.
Nary: Correct.
Donahue: Okay.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. I guess I have a question for staff. There are only a few
Neighborhood Center circles that really have more than a couple of pieces of
property that it involves. Let's say, the property, only one or two pieces of this
property go for Neighborhood Centers. What would Mrs. Donahue be allowed
to-how would her property be allowed to develop if the property behind her is
the Neighborhood Center piece and they had the 25 acres office or whatever.
Would she only be allowed to do residential in her acre?
Corrie: Shari
Stiles: Mr. Mayor. Councilwoman De Weerd. If the ten acres were used up in
that vicinity, yes, that would be all there is. I don't want to get into too many
specifics here because this is a project that is yet to come before you. It is in the
process. What I would suggest to Mrs. Donahue, is to make sure that she is
heard at those public hearings, that she makes sure that there's adequate
connection to her property so that she may be able to be an integral part of that
development even though she may not want to be now, that she'll have the
opportunity to do that in the future. I don't believe, in this case, the ten acres was
used up. Everything has to be judged on its own merits when it comes in. Until
she comes in with an application, wants to be annexed, show us her
development, it's kind of hard to say what she would be permitted to do because
nothing is guaranteed. I realize what she is talking about, the transitional
densities. It's our hope with this new Comprehensive Plan, that people can co-
exist and be neighbors even though they are from different lifestyles and have
different living arrangements. Residential next to residential is a compatible use.
I have four-plexes coming up in my backyard adjacent to a whole string of single-
family homes. That's a compatible use. I'm not going to complain about it. In
fact, I'll go to the Council meeting and support it because it's well done. I think
maybe what Mrs. Donahue is referring to is, in our old Comprehensive Plan it did
call for transitional densities when you came up adjacent to those properties.
Unfortunately, a lot of the people interpreted that, the people on the five acres
and the one-acre, interpret that as meaning they're going to have the five acres
or one acre immediately adjacent to them. That can't happen. It is within an
urban area, within an area of impact. We do expect all of that to develop to
urban density. I don't know if that answered anything or not but-
De Weerd: It was much more than I asked for.
Corrie: Okay. Blaine Bennett. This is between 1-84 and Amity Road. Is the
testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
so help you God?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 30 of 54
Bennett: It is.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Bennett: Blaine Bennett. 343 E. Calderwood Drive. Actually, I came prepared
to make some remarks about the property on E. Calderwood Drive that Brad
referenced a little earlier. I think, based on his comments, I might be a little
premature but I think a couple points of clarification would still be helpful to us.
The first one would be the definition of R-4. Our thinking was that that meant
four homes per acre. Could you clarify that?
Stiles: If I can. I would like to take that. I know in the past there was a
subdivision that came in here that was proposed. It was know as Fawcett
Meadows. The developer had accumulated all of those areas and drew out
options on the property and actually had a development approved by the City
Council. That plat is null and void. It no longer exists. Unfortunately, it is
annexed and zoned. Fortunately or unfortunately, I guess, depending on where
you are. It is an R-4 zone. The only thing that can be approved under that
zoning would be single-family housing with an R-4 density, which is a maximum
of four units per acre. If you'll notice the area just north of Calderwood, is shown
now as commercial. That wasn't previously shown as commercial but it only
makes sense when the Lotspeech property, if you'll remember that. I don't know
if you were here then. They did come in and get that property zoned commercial
and in order to have a logical breaking point, which would be at Calderwood.
That's why we extended that because it's not likely that single-family homes are
going to be adjacent to that. Plus, that really serves as a collector road.
Bennett: Well, it's interesting that you mention that because as you come into
our subdivision, there is a for sale sign there that talks about commercial
property. I think you were just referring to it as north of Meridian Road. That
would be south.
Stiles: North of Calderwood.
Bennett: Oh, okay. Okay. I know where you're talking about.
Stiles: So that is-a majority of that's already been approved as commercial.
Bennett: What kind of construction could go in there then?
Stiles: They are required to go through a Conditional Use process. Nothing has
been proposed yet. I know they're marketing that property as commercial. They
would have to come through the City with additional public hearings. They would
have to post the property showing when the public hearings were and if you were
within 300 feet, you would be notified.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 31 of 54
Bennett: That was my other question. On the notification for the people within
300 feet, could you elaborate just briefly on that process? How much notification
and-
Stiles: The notification is sent out. It has to be sent to you within 15 days of the
public hearing. It's also-our official newspaper is the Valley Times-
Corrie: No. It's the Statesman now.
Stiles: Oh, it is again?
Corrie: Until they get-we changed it. They hadn't gotten something-I don't
know-
Stiles: I'm out of the loop there. Back in the Statesman. I don't know if we still
have a specific day that that comes out. It was on a Friday, previously. I'm not
sure when it comes out now. We do post those also in the City Clerk's office.
(inaudible)
Bennett: One final question relative to that notification process. How far along in
your approval process are you already when you send those out. I mean-it's
just that the other party has put in an application for a re-zoning and the City
hasn't taken any action on it?
Stiles: That's correct. It would go before the Planning and Zoning Commission
first and then on to the City Council for an additional public hearing in the case of
plats or re-zones.
Bennett: Would the Planning and Zoning Commission have already a
recommendation to present to the City Council?
Stiles: No. No, they wouldn't. They do meet with staff. They do meet with staff
before, well; hopefully, they've met with staff before they submitted their
application. Just another clarification on what was previously known as Fawcett
Meadows. If they chose to, they could come through with some type of a plan
development that could allow some alternate uses that are excluded in an R4
zone. But, again, that would be all public hearing process. With the input we've
had on previous projects in that area, I'm sure that we'll have quite a
representation from the neighborhoods to the east.
Bennett: Thank you very much.
Corrie: Thank you. I forgot to say something before we started. If you've got
beepers or cell phones, turn them off. If somebody is testifying, they get irritated
and we don't want any fistfights going on in here. Thank you. I made sure I had
mine turned off, too. All right. H. L. Forsgren. 431 E. Calderwood. Okay. How
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 32 of 54
about Michelle Forsgren? Again, I apologize ahead of time. Greg Olson. Doug
Olson.
(inaudible)
Corrie: Okay. Marie? How about Dale Rogers? Is the testimony you're about to
give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Rogers: It is.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please, Dale.
Rogers: My name is Dale Rogers. My address is 1771 S. Marshwood Place. I
live, just; I guess it would be, to the north of Calderwood there in Running Brook
Estates. I was under the impression that there was a proposal for re-zoning of
the area south, the lot south of Calderwood. From what testimony was given
today, I understand that has not taken place. I would only ask that, having lived
in Boise for 26 years, or 23 years, I've only lived in Meridian for three. The
reason I moved from Boise to Meridian was to find a lower density, where I
wasn't stepping on everybody. Fortunately or unfortunately, I've been a police
officer for 26 years in Boise. I chose to move out of Boise to a lower density area
such as Meridian. We looked long and hard for many years to find an area that
was low density, residential, not high-density apartments that could go into that
area. We thought we found that when we built our home three years ago in that
Running Brooks Estate. I think, along with all my neighbors, we would not like to
see a high-density area in that area south of Calderwood. If you were
considering re-zoning that, we would ask you not to do that. I guess my biggest
problem was, as a police officer working in Boise for 26 years, as I saw high
density areas come in to be apartment complexes. There was an extreme,
seemed to have a larger call load for police officers in those areas and I would
hate to see that in our neighborhood. So, I'm asking you to please not re-zone
that area. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you, Dale. Sandra Henman? Is the testimony you're about to
give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Henman: Yes, I do.
Corrie: Thank you. Name and address, please.
Henman: 483 E. St. Kitts, Meridian Greens. We moved here in Meridian almost
15 years ago, excited to move away from the congestion of Boise as well. We
moved out here because we thought it was a beautiful place to be. We have
worked real hard trying to find a location of our home in which we could be proud
of and that it would grow in value. We watched Meridian Greens grow for four
years before we actually bought in to that subdivision. I know there's a lot of
people out here that I think feels the same way. When they invested their
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 33 of 54
money, there was a lot of expense when we put the money into those homes that
are in there. I just want the committee here to take that into consideration when
those decisions are made for the property around that area. We ask you to
consider that so we can keep our values of our property in line. That's all I have
to say. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Rita White?
(inaudible)
Corrie: Okay. All right. Earl Ramsey?
Ramsey: I believe everybody pretty well covered what I had to say.
Corrie: All right. Thank you. I noticed there are a lot people from Calderwood
on this list here. Mary Phillips? (inaudible) All right. Thank you, Mary. Gary
Phillips? (inaudible)
De Weerd: That's all right.
Corrie: Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth so help you God?
Phillips: Yes, it is.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Phillips: Gary Phillips at 332 E. Calderwood Drive. Something that's bothering
me a little bit about the R-4 zoning when they were talking earlier. (inaudible)
could go down in like an R-3 or even lower or it could go up to an R-8? I don't
understand what-based on what she just told us it was an R-4. That was pretty
cut and dried but in discussion earlier, it kind of seemed like there was some
latitude either way.
Corrie: Steve, do you want to tackle that?
Siddoway: The latitude is in the areas that are not yet annexed that they can
request some various zones upon annexation. In this case of the lot just south of
Calderwood, it's already zoned. It's zoned R-4. So, it would have to be built to
those standards. The only way out that would be a re-zone. In which case, you
would be notified in the case of re-zone or planned development.
De Weerd: From the way it looks, I'm sure it would spread very rapidly out. You
guys need to teach us how to get that communication thing going, you know.
(inaudible)
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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Corrie: All right. Rolly Bunch. (inaudible) Okay. All right. Very good. Myrna?
All the same thing. Okay. Carol Cox? Okay, Carol. We're getting right down,
here. Jane? Southeast something way, Meridian. I'm sorry. I can't read the last
name. Is it Jane or John? John, okay. All right. Thank you, John. Sorry to call
you Jane. If you meet me outside, you can beat me up if you want to. Okay.
Anyone else in the audience that would like to issue any kind of testimony
tonight? Yes, sir. Come right up here. Is the testimony you're about to give the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Rosario: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Rosario: Freddie Rosario. 1012 N. Kathy Lane. Mine is on Section 7. Right on
the money and it's concerning Old Town. I guess, first of all, Mayor and Council,
and staff, I want to find out what exactly the Old Town designation means.
Corrie: Okay. Question one. Steve, do you want to-
Siddoway: It's intended that the Old Town designation would coincide with the
Old Town zoning district that the City has. That zoning district is a mixed-use
district. It allows for residential, commercial office uses to co-exist. It currently
requires a Conditional Use Permit for pretty much any use other than residential
and museums. The City is in the process through their Urban Renewal Agency
of adopting design standards for Old Town and possibly lifting that Conditional
Use process for applications that meet those design standards. It's a mixed-use
district. It's based, roughly, on the historic town plat in looking at areas that are
built under that designation.
Rosario: So that also includes single and multiple family dwellings and all that?
Siddoway: Yes.
Rosario: Okay. If I could use the map?
Nary: Sir, could you spell your last name, so when they make the record they
could get that.
Rosario: R-O-S-A-R-I-O.
Nary: Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you very much. (inaudible) If you could take the mike there with
you, Fred, I'd appreciate it.
Rosario: Actually, we could magnify. Show me where.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 35 of 54
Siddoway: (inaudible) talk about magnification (inaudible) You want me to zoom
out a little more? Well, I guess that's as good as the graphics are going to get.
Okay. Looking for East 8th Avenue. I think it's (inaudible) Oh, State? Yes, State
is-this is East State Avenue right here and it ends in a cul-de-sac at this location
right here.
Rosario: Well, I'm at the dead-end cul-de-sac. Of course, you can see it on the
magnification. You can see it on this one a lot better but for some reason when
we're adding the new nine dwellings or lots, they're kind of leaving us out. We're
the only thing between that border and the creek. (inaudible) yes (inaudible)
Siddoway: Lila, we'd like to have you on the record.
Corrie: We'd like to have on the tape so we can put you on record. Is the
testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
so help you God?
Hill: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, Lila.
Hill: Lila Hill. 5175 S. Howard Lane. Meridian Historian. That piece of property
is now currently occupied what was the 1928 built Methodist parsonage. It was
moved there and I can't give you the exact year. I suppose about 1992, 94
something-99? -89-okay. The only reason that it's excluded, specifically, is
because it's no longer considered register property. It has lost its register ability
status because it's moved from its original position. We are not interested in
making a historic register district, which is the one that puts all of the restrictions
on what you can and cannot do on every piece of property within that district.
That's the reason that building was not included, is because, I know, it sits on
that side of the creek but that particular building is not historically intact. Does
that make sense?
Corrie: In the mike if you want to talk so we can hear you.
Rosario: It makes sense but I guess, when (inaudible) standpoint, the building
itself is still a historic building.
Hill: Not according to register standards.
Rosario: I understand that. I still have a 1928 home. Since we're talking about
Old Town, it was moved from it's Old Town position to where it presently is.
Does that automatically make it a newer home? I guess (inaudible)
Hill: It makes it not eligible for registered. It has to be in the same place for 50
years. And it has to not have been adjusted in 50 years and that one has had
some storm windows and things added to it. Now, if the City decides they want
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 36 of 54
to include that extra parcel along with the Old Town, it could be done. But the
buildings that are on it do not qualify for historic buildings, necessarily. Okay?
Rosario: Okay.
Hill: It's a wonderful old house.
Rosario: I loved it. That's why we bought it.
Hill: Okay, but before they moved it, the upstairs floor went like this.
Rosario: I looked it up in the library book (inaudible) The neighbors are also
basically looking at it from the standpoint of the last homes of what's proposed
are like, right there. Because we're affected, no matter what.
Hill: So, then, you need to talk to them about whether you want the land itself
included in the old district. But the properties that are on it are not historical.
(inaudible)
Hill: The house has been put on natural gas. It had originally a coal fire furnace
or oil furnace. So there had been a lot of adaptations made to it and the outside
has been changed to some extent, which is a number one priority. If you have
register property, you can do anything you want to the inside but you mustn't
change the outside.
Corrie: Okay. What would you like for us to do?
Rosario: Well, basically, I have a sample letter here, I guess, and as you can
see that the map for East 8th Avenue is a dead-end at Five Mile Creek. We
would like to propose that this area also be considered as Old Town since the
creek provides a natural transition between uses. Where on the other side of the
creek, I believe a newer subdivision. So you're going to have to swim to get
across it.
Corrie: Okay. So, your request is that you'd like to have that Old Town?
Rosario: Added into the Old Town.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I don't see any problem with that in Old Town. It isn't historic. It won't be in
the Historical Register or anything but there are a lot of places in Old Town that
don't qualify that. I think that's a very, very good place to stop Old Town
(inaudible) the ditch and stuff. There's no real advantage to being in Old Town
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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but-(inaudible) yes, that's right. So, I would have no problem with it changing to
Old Town if that's what they'd like.
Rosario: (inaudible) both neighbors and one across the street of that shares the
cul-de-sac with me. The one even right of me also but I'll let them decide what
they really want to do.
Corrie: You'd just like to have it classified as Old Town.
Rosario: Yes.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: I don't think staff has any problem with that, do they?
Corrie: Staff, do you have any problems with that?
Siddoway: No problems, specifically. I actually, at some point, have a
presentation for the Council regarding the boundaries of this Old Town District.
This map does change it from what it was at the last hearing. I need to discuss
that at some point. In response to his specific question, I don't have a particular
problem with adding it.
Corrie: Okay. Yes, ma'am. Would you like to testify? Is the testimony you're
about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you
God?
Rue: Yes. My name is Janet Rue and I live at 2935 N. Eagle Road. I would just
like to go on record as saying that I would like to see the six properties on the
southwest corner of N. Eagle and Ustick be designated as mixed-use regional.
The same as the other three corners at that intersection. I realize that Carol
Subdivision does border the back of our properties. I feel the mixed-use regional
would still benefit them because they would still get the 300 foot buffer that is
required so that would protect them but it would give us the advantage of getting
more money for our property which is on a very busy road. I've lived there
myself for thirty some years and it really is not a residential area or a corner. I
feel that we are being singled out on the southwest corner when the others are
mixed-use regional. I feel we are in as much of a traffic pattern or a business
oriented section as the other three corners.
Corrie: Okay. I think you're mixed-use community right now, right? And you
want to go mixed-use regional.
Rue: Because I think it offers them the same buffer as they get with the other but
it just gives us the advantage of getting more money for our property.
Corrie: Do you own all that property in there?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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Rue: No. lawn the one where you're on right there.
Corrie: You own that one. Okay.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I agree with the people. I don't know how-you know the one that we don't
have showing there even though it's still is in our impact because we haven't
gone through the proper way of getting rid of it. That whole corner, what one lot
should be, the other one should be the same too. I think mixed-use regional is
appropriate for that. Carol Subdivision can have-you can get a buffer on there.
It no different than-you're probably going to have-you've got residential
buffering up to all these other ones. So, I just think to take one corner out of one
of the busier corners in the county and you strap the landowners with what they
can do it. I really think we should change it to mixed-use regional.
Rue: As an interesting aside, 30, 20 to 28 years ago, we had actually 20 acres
out there and the people who developed Carol Subdivision actually came to us at
that time and asked if we would give permission for them to make that
development. And we did without any question because we thought they're far
enough back. It's okay. So, now we're asking and they're saying no. Really, it
isn't-and they will still have a big buffer. That corner is definitely a commercial
corner. I just feel that's how it should be. Thank you for your time and for
listening to me.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I don't recall in all the public hearings of having anybody from Carol in here
testifying against that being a mixed-use regional. Maybe staff has had some.
Maybe Planning and Zoning did. I don't recall anything. I think its just common
sense that if you've got three corners at regional, you have a four-corner
regional; they're basically the same size properties.
Corrie: Yes. Makes sense. Thank you, Janet. Is this testimony you're about to
give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Otto: Yes, it is.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 39 of 54
OttO: Roger Otto, 6110 Shandy Drive. The purpose here is to talk about the ten
acres that we're talking about giving to Boise. I'd like to bring that up on the map
there.
De Weerd: Off of Chinden? Going off of Chinden?
Otto: Yes. That's correct. You've eliminated from the map there-and in the
earlier discussion, I know it's a question of where you want to go on it. I live on a
property adjoining them there. I have two acres there and I've lived there for
almost 40 years. The concern I have is, they're developing that in like a four or
five homes to an acre where we're single acres there. We do a lot of work with
farm work and so forth around there and throw a lot of dust and they're going to
be getting the full force of that. lance lived in Boise, east side of Orchard. This
was in 1960. They took in the city limit there. I moved out there 40 years ago. I
said, Boise good-bye. Now, they're against my land. Which is like ten miles
away from where I lived. When are we going to stop Boise from acquiring
everything they've taken away from us as far as impact area and so forth in this
area? The real reason that we're giving up those ten acres, that needs to be
considered, you know.
Nary: Okay. Let me take a stab at this one. The reason that they to go into
Boise is one, the sewering problem. The sewer can go towards Boise and
everything west of that goes downhill to Meridian. Whenever they made the line,
the City of Meridian's and Boise's urban impact, that was the line that they drew.
Probably, the line will not go any further than that. At least, that's the way the
County Commissioners are now. So, they set our line at that. We found out, the
engineers found out, that they cannot service that without a lift station because
it's too low. And the other is high enough to go. That's one of the reasons that
the developer has asked, is probably a financial thing as well, is the fact that they
can sewer that with Boise much easier than if they sewered with Meridian as
good through a pumping station. So, the line of demarcation has been set and,
like Mr. Bird said, we haven't gone through the procedure yet. It's not a done
deal but that was one of the requests.
Otto: (inaudible) original line used to be (inaudible) with the line.
Nary: That's correct.
Otto: We're saying that they're going to be pumped into Boise because they
can't be-
Nary: It will flow to Boise.
Bird: The way they've got the Bristol Heights-excuse me, Mayor-they've got
the Bristol Heights lift station already. This hooks right to it. There's no way that
that will flow into our north slough when that comes out there. That property, that
ten acres or whatever it is, will not flow in. We would have to have lift station, as
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 40 of 54
I understand from our engineers, to bring those ten acres into our sewer. That's
one of the reasons. Yes, we are giving some back but we are picking up twelve
acres if they will take that down about a mile and a half. None of this has been
official because we have not gone through the commissioners. We have to meet
with the commissioners. Boise has to meet with the commissioners. We have to
redefine our deal. We are picking up-see that land right there-Boise has given
us that land, to take in that because we can sewer that. So we're getting I think
there's ten or twelve acres there.
Otto: I am referring to Cloverdale (inaudible). Now the other thing is, I've lived
there. I know, I bought that land because their water flows into ours as far as
ditches and so forth so I can't understand how they can be lower than me. I've
got homes there that aren't low. I've got homes that have basements with
facilities in them that need to be taken care of when the sewer line comes here.
Are you going to give us gravity flow sewer service, at that point?
Bird: Yes. I understand we can. The deal is, on gravity flow, if it doesn't have a
natural flow, sometimes to get to natural flow you have to go to deep at the end
to make it work, as I understand it. I'm not an engineer by any thought of the
imagination.
Otto: You set up to give us?
Bird: Oh, yes. When our north slough goes-you naturally flow into it.
Otto: Without a pumping system?
Bird: Oh, yes. You won't have a lift station. That's what we understand.
Otto: (inaudible) that land because I live beside and I see the water flow and so
forth.
Bird: And I'll be truthful with you. A lot of it is probably, as the Mayor said,
financial, getting it done right now. We're not capable of getting sewer and stuff
out there. Bristol Heights is right there. They've got the pump station all set up.
I believe the same developer did Bristol Heights.
Otto: I just feel it would be better if they did go that direction. Maybe one acre
lots rather than the other. (inaudible) Segwick, Banberry, our other facilities in
the rest of the area, which is a lot of one acre-
Bird: Well, I have a feeling that you will have a chance to go testify before Boise
before this is developed. This isn't a done deal by a long shot, as I understand.
They've got to go through the same process they would go through-all he did
was come here and ask us if we would okay the transfer to Boise City. And we
said, yes, because we can't sewer you. So, you will be-(inaudible) well, we
won't get into why we lost a whole bunch of the ground.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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Corrie: Thank you, Roger. Is there anyone else who hasn't testified? John. Is
the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth so help you God?
Ewing: It is.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Ewing: I'm John Ewing. My address is 2932 E. Lake Hazel. Two things. Back
to the piece of property on Ustick and Eagle. I'm representing my sisters and I.
We own the piece that's the furthest south. I think as a matter of record, we'd
like to go on record that we certainly think that should be changed to mixed-use
regional also. Hopefully, we could get some support from the Council. If it
doesn't, if for some reason you decide it shouldn't be, I feel that I would really like
to see the proposed change that was brought up by Planning and Zoning tonight
in writing before it is voted on. We've asked, we've had a clarification but maybe
I'm the only one that's a little slow in this room but I'm still a little confused on
acres and total square footage of buildings. I, actually, am feeling that we have
the regional almost anyway. I'm thinking we do. If we are as close as I think we
are, I think we ought to have it. Then there would be no question.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess as long as it's for your sister, John.
Ewing: Excuse me. I am sorry.
De Weerd: That's all right. I was being sarcastic anyway.
Ewing: That's okay. I know better than to turn my back.
De Weerd: I think you're, as Councilman Bird and the Mayor has already said, it
makes a lot of sense. Even though you're standing in front of us, it's for your
sister. I'd still agree with you.
Ewing: Thank you.
Bird: We should have Sandy up there talking.
Corrie: Is there anyone else? Okay. Is the testimony you're about to give the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Crane: Yes, it is.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 42 of 54
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Crane: Charles Crane. 3610 W. Ustick Road. I'd like to present myself as an
expert on public opinion since I've been in about twenty-five of these meetings
now. I had a discussion with Dave McKinnon and the Planning and Zoning staff.
A fundamental difference in his view as opposed to my view is what urban
density should be and what's appropriate for Meridian's future for how dense it
should be. I have a tendency to think a one-acre lot is not unreasonable, maybe
one-half acre. There seems to be two groups in Meridian. The people that
moved here to get away from being dense and the people who are selling out to
get away from the density that is increasing. One of the things on the new Camp
Plan map is the wording where you can go up or down one step. I would
propose that we take away the going up option-
***End of Side Three***
Crane: --conditional use or variance. Allow them to go down in density, to be
less dense. But if they want to go up in density, to at least require Conditional
Use Permit automatically if they want to change or just go through the variance
process.
Corrie: Okay. Anyone else? Yes. If you have something new, you certainly
may. No. You've already been sworn in. State your name again.
Hinman: Sandra Hinman.
Corrie: Thank you, Sandra.
Hinman: I do feel the need that-I didn't bring up earlier because we were
talking about a certain area but this is a little different. I do feel the need of
asking this Council to do something about our traffic in Meridian. I just think it's
absolutely atrocious that it takes my husband, coming from United Heritage to
get home to Meridian Greens longer than it takes me to get from Ten Mile and
Cherry Lane. It takes him longer to get home than it does me. I just ask this
Council. I think we need to do something about it right away. Thank you.
(inaudible)
Bird: I was going to say. We're with you 100 percent.
Hinman: I'd like to know, where do I go?
Corrie: You have to go to ACHD. Highway District. We don't have any control
of the streets other than we tell what we'd like to do and they tell us where to go.
But anyway, I understand your dilemma and I don't know the answer yet. If you
think we're going to have 170,000 people, it's going to take your husband about
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 43 of 54
seven hours to get home. Anyway, if we get mass transit, he might take ten
minutes. Okay. Is there anyone else? Okay.
De Weerd: I just wanted to respond to the previous testimony. You know, we're
kind of tongue in cheek when we talk about ACHD but we do recognize that there
is some real traffic issues on both Meridian and Eagle interchanges. It's not just
ACHD you need to approach. It's lTD. As we all know, we need a traffic light on
that exit off on our interchange. The City, even in response to our budget issues
and how tight things are, we feel strongly enough we put money towards an
overpass at Locust Grove. ACHD is committed to that. ITD hasn't put it on the
work schedule yet. That is something that it will take citizens getting behind it,
making those phone calls and trying to help the City in it's voice that that needs
to be done. That is why we committed our citizens tax dollars to doing that. So,
we all recognize that it is a frustration but, boy, I see how you got your neighbors
out tonight to speak on behalf of some of your concerns. That is something that
we would welcome, your voice in addition to ours at both ACHD and ITD to
maybe help get it moved along in a more timely fashion. I would highly
encourage you to call those different entities and express your concerns there
too.
Corrie: Okay. Yes, sir. Your turn. Is the testimony you're about to give the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Barnes: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Barnes: Bob Barnes. 2855 Magic View Dr. First of all, I'd like to pick up our
perfect attendance plaque for being here every week for three years. If there's
any way-I mean, you've got a wonderful plan. Not everybody is ever going to
be totally happy with the decisions you make but I think after three years of
input-I mean, we could keep doing this for three more years but-please-if
there's any way to wrap this up, we'd be forever grateful. My wife told me we
need to get a life so-
De Weerd: Where's your hat?
Corrie: I think you're absolutely right, Bob. We've sat through two of these now.
I'm the only one that's on the Council that's sat through two of them. This has
been a long ordeal but we want to make sure we get it right. And we'll not get it
perfect but hopefully, we're doing it the best we can in listening to the public.
Thank you. Okay. Last call. Anyone else? Okay. Council, where would you
like to go? Would you like to have one more meeting to have the staff bring all
these to you and then you make your decision? Do you feel you've had enough
public input? What's your pleasure?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
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Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I'll start it out. I'd like to vote on it tonight but I think we have had some text
and stuff added to it. We've got to do some changing on our map. I think we
need to get that out. The text changes in the context of the text so we're not
looking through the memo. And also, get this map with the determinations that
we've kind of gone over today. Like-and I think the Council and the Mayor
supports the southwest corner of Ustick and Eagle Road being regional like the
others. And getting these maps to the other changes that we have discussed
and kind of agreed upon. I hate to say this and I hope the rest of the Council and
the Mayor agree with me, we have one more meeting and we adopt it at that
meeting, because we're going to get everything ready to go and get it done. The
staff has worked real hard to get this done. That's my thought.
Corrie: Okay. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Thank you. I'd agree with you, Councilman Bird. I was the same way. I
thought we would be able to go forward with this tonight. But I think we've got a
lot of different information, some new information, and I think we probably do
need to have time to digest that. I was going to make one comment, just so it's
clear for the record. On the issue of the one-step on the residential that Mr.
Crane brought up, all that was intended was to allow not having to go through a
Land Use Map change. It doesn't mean that those zones are approved. It just
means that you can apply to ask for those things if you're going to be annexed.
It's good (inaudible) of flexibility but it's not an open door. So, I know-it
sounded like your concern was a little bit that it was sort of opening a door to lock
more development and it just gives an opportunity to have that discussion. We
probably do need to have a little more discussion on the urban service issue. We
probably do need some input from the Public Works Department on that issue as
well. Maybe we could have Mr. Smith and Mr. Watson next time so we can at
least have a good dialogue about that issue as well. I hate to say, yes, we
may-
(inaudible)
Corrie: I would like to, for the record, that we have a letter from Jim Jewett. I'd
like to make sure that the City Clerk puts this into public testimony as well. Okay.
With that, --
Siddoway: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Steve.
Siddoway: Just a couple of things. One, staff has come prepared tonight with
the revised map, that shows most of the changes that have been agreed to. The
exception, the corner of Ustick and Eagle, which, if it were a simple thing like
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 45 of 54
that, could be appropriated into a motion, if you were at that point. Brad has
prepared the memo so that the Council could reference it in any motion you
might make. If the Council wishes to have all of the changes rolled into the
Camp Plan, in one place, so you have it finalized and all together, it will take
thirty days and not just a couple of weeks to get all those changes done, rolled
into one place and back to you.
Bird: It's been three years. So, what's thirty days?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I don't think the changes, since the book that you've already given
us, are significant enough or confusing enough that we can't do it off of what staff
has given us today. I don't have an issue with that at all. As quickly as they
have been doing these land changes, is this a possibility? Because, I'm not
really all that interested in having another special meeting on this. Can we do it
at our next meeting on Tuesday?
Corrie: They asked for extended time. I don't know whether we should-go
ahead Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Members of the Council. Just to remind you. I think we're
kind of looking at a two-step process. One is, is for you to settle on the text and
the map so that that can be put into a final document so that final document can
accompany a resolution, which is voted on by this Council. So, what staff is
really asking for is the direction from you with regard to the map and with regard
to the text so that they can prepare that final document. It would appear to me
that really the only text issue that may be left has to do with the urban service
planning area, whether there can be some additional language put in there that
doesn't change the concept that came from the Planning and Zoning
Commission, while addressing the issues with regard to stress upon urban
services that occur from urban densities in the area of impact. The text itself
might be able to be addressed on that particular issue and in fairness to Public
Works who was not here to address it for your consideration tonight.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: If this could be done in an hour, hour and a half, perhaps we could
have an early meeting on the 29th before our regular meeting and finish it up then
and give the staff the direction they needed.
Corrie: Staff, what Mr. Nichols said, is that what you're saying?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 46 of 54
Stiles: Yes, it is. One problem that we have is that we have a consultant that's
waiting to complete the document but they'll only do it one time. So, we'd like to
give him all of the changes at once and be able to direct them on the figures and
everything that we're going to do. You'll notice that in this current draft that you
have, that maybe the numbers don't quite match up and its-that's because we
have nobody experienced on our staff, really, that we can prepare a final
document ourselves. We would like to know about-have you make your
decision, basically, so we know what to put in it and address the impact area
issue as well.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Cheri, can we have that conversation at our regularly scheduled
meeting next Tuesday on the 21 st while Gary and Brad are here? Because, we
only have the one specific issue to discuss to get that clarified and then act on
the summary you've provided us today and with the updated map.
Siddoway: In short, yes. If you're not prepared to give us final direction tonight,
a future meeting, whether it's a special meeting or the regular meeting, if you
could give, basically, your final motion for what you want to see in the Land Use
Map and the text, close the public hearing, we would then take all of those final
changes and submit them to our consultant, get the final document back in within
30 days. Mr. Nichols is suggesting that would be when the resolution to adopt
would come back with the final document and then it would be finalized.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess then if Council would agree, the land request by Idaho Power
would be appropriate.
Siddoway: I would really like to have five minutes just to go over the map
because I have some changes like that that are proposed and a big one is Old
Town. Lila is setting on the edge of her seat because she really wants to talk
about that one. We are proposing a few changes to the Land Use Map like that
that I need a minute to go over.
Corrie: Okay. Let's go over it.
Siddoway: Okay. The Council should have a future Land Use Map that they
received about a week and a half ago dated May 2002. It was just titled City of
Meridian Future Land Use Map. That map incorporated all of the changes that
were in the decisions made by the Council at the prior hearing. Those changes
included the Council's direction to remove the two areas from the impact area
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 47 of 54
and also changing the area along Franklin Road on the east boundary from high
density residential to mixed-use regional. Okay. You should have that. Tonight,
I have a map that addresses several things that came up tonight.
Nary: Are you saying the one you had up there is Option A was a map we've
already received.
Siddoway: If you considered the map that you received a week and a half ago
with all of the changes that you had requested to date, that would be Option-
does that one have the future Land Use Map at the-
Nichols: This one is from May 1 st.
Siddoway: Yes. But that one does not have the corner taken out. So, there's
one newer than that.
Nary: Then I never received that.
Bird: Yes, you did.
Siddoway: Okay.
Nary: It doesn't matter because we're on this one anyway, right?
Siddoway: I have to talk about Option B. Option B stays consistent with
everything that has been changed to date with the following modifications. I'm
going to zoom out although this really hard to see at the full scale. We heard
some testimony tonight about the Old Town District. The way that its always
been shown in Option A-I'll quickly zoom into that. Okay, this is the shape of
Old Town, right in the center, that we have been discussing to date. A couple of
issues have come up in the last couple of weeks, which we've tried to address.
One is the testimony that you heard tonight regarding the property at the end of
State Street. There was also an issue raised outside of this forum that talks
about how all of the boundaries of this district and at street. Properties across
the street from one another have a different designation. In response to that, Lila
Hill and I got together and went for a drive. What we tried to do was look at this
boundary. The boundary that you're looking at today was the boundary that was
given to me by Lila two years ago when we were beginning the Treasure Valley
Futures Project as the historic plat area of Old Town. From a planning
prospective, it makes more sense to be including both sides of the street in
looking at land use decisions. We went out and looked at this area and have
come up with a new proposal for Old Town. That proposal is here. Earlier we
had only taken in one side of Meridian Road. This would have extended to both
sides of Meridian Road and incorporates the area that's in the Urban Renewal
District over to West 4th. Including the lumberyard area. Where it used to end at
the road here, along here, and up here, we've now taken in the lots just on the
other side so that lots facing each on the street have the same thing. I'm going
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 48 of 54
to pause here and let Lila discuss it because we think it works this way for both
the historic perspective for Old Town and for planning purposes as well. Lila.
De Weerd: See (inaudible) how quickly that changes? Quite impressive.
Corrie: Name, please.
Hill: Lila Hill. When these housing units were constructed, it was before the days
of everybody having a trencher and they built them so they had easiest access to
the sewer lines and the water lines in the City. When they built a subdivision, in
that day, they built on both sides of the street so they could connect with the least
amount of effort possible. You will find as you go down the street Washington,
that the houses are mirror image on each side of the street. There's no reason to
make the ones that are on the south side of the street historic while the ones on
the north side of the street are exactly identical and they're not included. Beyond
that first house, they fall into another development pattern. That happens in a lot
of these areas where the subdivision line went down the middle of the street but
the construction patterns fell on both sides of that street. That's, basically, what
we have done in most of these areas, is to include the area that would reflect that
sort of development pattern. Except for East 2 % Street, because it does divide
developmentally on the center of that street. We left it down the center as it had
been before. One of the areas we changed, which is now the grassed area east
of the old high school or the convention center, where Mrs. McFadden's father
lived, would make good park ground. We wanted it in the area where it had a
little more usability as far as changing without being so rigidly controlled. Now,
not saying we'll ever get from her but then it's a place that's not full of buildings
and so forth. It comes on down through the division of that next block, simply
because, there are some of the historic properties located in that area that are
some of our oldest houses in town. That's the rational for doing most of this. It
was to include subdivision areas that were contiguous with each other. I hope
that explains that.
Siddoway: Just expanding a little bit along East 3rd Street, for example, the
boundary was there and the area east of it was shown as commercial and
industrial in our draft. It's existing built out nearly all residential, some
redevelopment potential, but given that the mixed-use designation of Old Town
allowed that to be flexible for the existing residences instead of just showing
them as commercial. The last thing I'll point out is that-I forgot his name-
Rosario-on this revision; his parcel does not show up. I think we could add that
as well.
Corrie: That was my question. It didn't show on this one.
Siddoway: It does not show up on this one. It could be added.
Corrie: Okay.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 49 of 54
Siddoway: Any questions about Old Town issues before I move on to something
else?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Just that-I guess a different question. We talked about that piece that
Sherry had mentioned, Mr. Yorgason's piece, that we would still show it. On this
Option B, you show it with a sort of a blank line and a white space but you didn't
put back the other one. Was the intent to put back the other one at Eagle and
Ustick until that is gone?
Bird: The northeast corner (inaudible)
Siddoway: Yes.
Nary: It's not back on this one. So wasn't the intent to put that back on this one?
Siddoway: Our recommendation would be to put it back on.
Nary: Because you put on the Yorgason one, I didn't know if it was just an
oversight that that piece wasn't put back on yet. Yorgason's piece has a block
and a white space on it.
Siddoway: Oh, that's just, the lot lines always showed up. The second theory
moved off that map. The impact boundary line goes around it too. We would
recommend putting it back on until it's formally moved. That's actually one of the
things I was going to discuss. The second change from what you saw two weeks
ago, has already been discussed earlier tonight. The addition of this new mixed-
use community area, it takes in the-I'll show you the same area in the earlier
map-it was a mixture of medium density residential and commercial uses. It
basically follows this boundary here. As Shari talked about, there is a mixed-use
project approved here. After we take in this area into Old Town, there's this little
left over chunk of medium density residential that, as the gentleman requested
tonight, it seemed to make sense, as a mixed-use opportunity. We would
support that based on mixed-use community standards and propose that the
map actually look like this. Tammy also brought up the parcel that Idaho Power
owns. I'll quickly take you there. In the current map, which I won't show you, it's
shown totally as public what their request looks like if it were mapped that way, is
this parcel right here, currently showing as all green. It would actually add a
division along a line where the Hardin Drain is and they've asked for the mixed-
use neighborhood designation on the northern portion of that lot. That's a new
change. The last change that shows up on this map is the addition of the five
parks that Mr. Kuntz talked about. The items, in my mind, that need to be
resolved regarding the map, to make final edits to it, would be one, are we
changing the Eagle / Ustick property to MURG and it sounds like we probably
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 50 of 54
are. Are we putting the areas that we removed from our area of impact back in
and it sounds like we are. I just want to verify. Do you want to show the five park
sites as proposed by Mr. Kuntz and are you comfortable with the new boundaries
for Old Town. That's alii have.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: My input is that the five new parks sites will be stated on the map, shown
on the map of will be, could be. Let's make sure that people don't think that just
because you've got it spotted on that Lot 20, Block 3 that that's where it's going
to be.
Siddoway: Does the note as currently stated capture what you'd like to say?
Note one?
Bird: You bet. That's good, Steve.
Siddoway: Okay.
Bird: I think that consensus of Council is that we definitely change the southwest
corner of Eagle and Ustick to MUR. I think Old Town-I think that's a very good
move. If I were living across the street from Old Town, I'd want my lot to be the
same designation. I think that's very, very good.
Siddoway: Okay. And to modify it to include-
Bird: And you've got number 40 in here I think that, on the modification on the
text, that item circled, I was going to ask what you meant but then when you
come up on the map I see what it means. You bet. I'm for that.
Corrie: Any other additions?
Siddoway: So, yes on all counts?
Bird: Yes, sir.
Corrie: If everybody agrees, yes on every account, we can do it in a motion here
later. Okay. Any other things that he's requesting that you don't agree with?
There isn't any? Okay.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 51 of 54
Nary: Is there any issue-and I think I do agree with what the staff is saying but
we did have a couple of requests regarding the Magic View area, the Subway
area. They wanted mixed-use rather than office, I think. Is that right? The staff
wasn't supportive of that because there is a way to do that through the
development agreement. Is everyone comfortable with that?
Bird: I don't care whether it's mixed-use or done through the development
agreement but I do believe that that is a mixed-use area out there. We've
already allowed a lot of retail and stuff in there. I can see that being more.
Siddoway: Mr. Mayor? Just to clarify. The Magic View is up on the map now.
You can see what's proposed is we're showing this straight commercial, internal
and along Eagle Road. For the lots that directly abut existing residential uses
and around the perimeter, it's shown as office to transition the use to the
residential. The requests have to do with this parcel right here and whether that
should be allowed to go from office to the mixed-use. It's already annexed. It's
already zoned L-O. We would just recommend that it stay as shown.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Steve, I think they're just asking on that five acres aren't they, if I
understand right. And you're buffered by the road that they put in there. I guess
that five-acre parcel-I would have no problem with zoning that. Actually, our
development agreement covers more than just those five acres, if I remember
right. Am I not right?
Stiles: Did you say it covers more than the five acres? (inaudible) is both sides
of that.
Bird: That's what I thought.
Stiles: If you recall, there was a lot of discussion about the different uses that
were proposed in there since they came in with the Ameritel Hotel and they did
have an agreement. The development agreement does state they're limited to
one-story office buildings. I don't know. I guess I'd like them to-I'd like us to
remain with the office north of Magic View to try to help transition that area. Part
of the reason that they are requesting that is they have submitted a request for
rezone and the primary intent of that, I guess, as stated to me by the applicants
representative, is to get a taller sign.
Bird: To do what?
Stiles: To get a taller sign.
Corrie: They got a bucket on the end of it? I'm sorry. I must be getting tired.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 52 of 54
Bird: Well, we've got some standout signs out there at that location. I just threw
that out. I have no problem with it going commercial because it backs right up to
commercial as it is. You've got the road that buffers it from your-and you've
part of a landscape, you've got part of an office building that buffers it from all
that. The Mountain View Bank goes back up in there-Mountain West Bank, I'm
sorry. Mountain West Bank-
Stiles: That's on the other side of the road.
Bird: Yes. It buffers from that deal. The road buffers.
Stiles: No. The road doesn't provide a buffer to that residential. They do have
some drainage area there but a road wouldn't be considered a buffer with the
amount of traffic that's going to be generated on that. If they were proposing the
entire five acres to be commercial, there would be no buffer from the commercial.
Then, you come in with the situation where, your logic now is; it might as well be
commercial because it backs up to a commercial. Well, that will be the case all
the way down the line.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess, in an attempt to try and be consistent, right now that's
adequately or correctly reflects what the current zoning is. So, I don't see why
we would change it.
(inaudible)
De Weerd: Just to stay consistent with what we've done with everything else;
that seems to be the best way to do it.
Corrie: (inaudible) consensus. Everybody seem to think that (inaudible) Okay.
Anything else?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess I would have a question for the attorney just to have it on
record. If we continue this, can we continue it limited to staff comments only so
that as we continue the public hearing, it would just be for specific reasons such
as the discussion with Gary and Brad on the urban service planning area and to
formulate our recommendations?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Members of the Council. Yes.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 53 of 54
De Weerd: Thank you.
Corrie: Very succinct. Okay. If that be the case-
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I would make a motion then to continue this May 21 st and limit public
hearing specifically to staff comments on the urban service planning area and
any questions that Council might have in formulating their recommendation on
the Comprehensive Plan. To May 21 s\ 2002.
Bird: I'll second it.
Corrie: Motion been made and second pending discussion.
Nary: Mr. Mayor. Just to clarify. The urban service planning area has a specific
connotation to a lot of development community. That's not really what we're
talking about. We're talking about the use of private utilities versus City owned
facilities in the area of impact.
De Weerd: That's correct.
Nary: Just so it's clear to folks that we're not talking about that urban service line
or any of that jazz. It's just dealing with that.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Nary. I would then clarify my motion to reflect what
Mr. Nary just said.
Bird: Second
Corrie: Any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor of the motion
say aye. Opposed, no. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
Corrie: Okay. With that, if nobody has any objections, I will entertain a motion to
adjourn unless somebody has something.
Siddoway: Mr. Mayor? I just had one thing. Since Mr. Brunt is here in the room.
I did want to thank Mr. Brunt of the Statesman for printing that map on their web
page. I think it's an asset to the community and I appreciate them doing that.
I've used it. I've looked at it. I sent it to a few people so they could look at it. I
think it was a very nice gesture on the Statesman's part and a very nice gesture
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
May 15, 2002
Page 54 of 54
for the community that they had an opportunity to look at this in a different form.
just appreciate them doing that.
De Weerd: This is a great community service. We appreciate it.
Bird: Thank you.
Corrie: Jonathan, my prediction was right, right? Okay. Thank you. I won't do
any elaborating.
(inaudible)
Corrie: (inaudible) make a decision tonight. We had to (inaudible) one more
time.
Bird: We can change that.
Corrie: I know you can but we can't now. I have a motion.
De Weerd: Did we already move to adjourn. I think we can always-
Bird: We can always-Mr. Mayor, I move we adjourn.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Thank you. Motion made and seconded. All those in favor say aye.
Okay. We adjourn at 9:37 p.m.
MEETING ADJOURNED 9:37 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR
/ /
DATE APPROVED
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK