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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 10-01 Pre Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 The Pre-Council Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on October 1, 2002, by Mayor Robert Corrie. Members Present: Robert Corrie, Cherie McCandless, Bill Nary, Tammy de Weerd, and Keith Bird. Others Present: Bill Nichols, Brad Watson, Ken Bowers, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Gary Smith, Mike Worley, Elroy Huff and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird X Mayor Robert Corrie Corrie: Ladies and Gentleman I will open the Pre-Council Meeting on Tuesday, October 1, 2002 at 6:00 P.M. in the City Council Chambers. This time I would like to have roll-call attendance by the City Clerk please. Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda Corrie: Item 2 on the agenda is adoption of the agenda. Council is there any additions or corrections to that agenda? De Weerd: I have none. Corrie: Hearing none I will entertain a motion to adopt the agenda as written. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move we adopt the agenda as presented. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and second to adopt the agenda. Any further discussion? All those in favor say aye. All ayes motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 3. Discussion of Meridian Tree Ordinance – Elroy Huff: Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 2 of 19 Corrie: The first on the agenda is Item Number 3 discussion of Meridian Tree Ordinance with Elroy Huff. Elroy. Huff: Well good evening. Does everybody have a copy of the ordinance? I didn’t get any to you today. Well a few items of discussion that Bill and I have discussed a little while back on Tree Ordinance. One of them was establishing the governing body. In the ordinance it says that the Parks Commission is the appeals board to anything that comes up for that and if it goes past that then the City Council will be the final decision making body once its gone past that appeal. I know that as our city grows and gets a little bit larger there’s going to be a lot of things that are going to come and go and I wonder if there are some things that could be adequately handled by Parks Commission instead of dragging every one of these things down here. I don’t know how you feel about that. Also on private property issues I want to make completely clear to everyone that the ordinance does really not go to private property unless there is an issue with a danger or a hazard or a nuisance or something that will effect the public greatly in the street or something that can’t be taken care of by contact of the homeowner. If they are out of town or if there is a dangerous situation that must be handled in immediate form. That’s when the administrator of the ordinance, which would be the arborist, can take over and make sure that problem is taken care of in the interest of public safety. That would be the only time that would happen unless there’s some kind of pest or such as an insect pest that do migrate and come through the area every so many years. We do have that we have some migrating in the northwest right now. When they come to this area, which we know they will. We don’t know if it will be eight or 10 years from now. They will have a devastating effect on our current forest. There may be some time there when measures need to be taken. Sometimes those trees might be on private property if they are adversely affected to the point that they will effect the rest of the forest in the city or the forest owned by the city in the parks system in a devastating manner, those can be dealt with. Usually the homeowner is very cooperative in those kinds of cases. I’ve done those before and if they’re not then well sometimes you just have to but I think those instances are very rare, very rare. The only other things I see in there that I think there have been a couple questions about and that’s the licensing fee. There is a 25 dollar fee for licensing in there, it’s not uncommon with any other Tree Ordinance in the valley. I haven’t recreated, reinvented the wheel. Everything is pretty much common to everything else. Let’s here, I’d like to the point where we can get it on to the regular agenda and go for Public Hearing. That’s all I have. Corrie: Council any questions or discussion on the three items he as talking about? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 3 of 19 De Weerd: Elroy the Parks Commission has looked at this and has given it their blessing correct? Huff: Yes, that’s true. De Weerd: Did they raise any issues about any items, how they were written? Huff: We discussed a couple things but all in explanation those were taken care of and so they’ve had plenty of time to study it, since that time I haven’t had any more comment on the issue. They did vote on it and approved it. They liked the way it was. De Weerd: And they didn’t have any problem in their roll as an appeals board. Well I don’t either. Huff: I don’t mean there might need to be a little bit of training here and there just to bring them up to speed on what may happen or what may come up, so they have some kind of understanding if there is something that may need to be done. De Weerd: The copy I have is dated March 15, 2002 I think. Is that the most recent draft? I know you have been working with the attorney. Huff: No its not, there hasn’t been enough change in it that you would notice a few dramatic layers, a couple things like that. That’s about all that’s really changed in it. De Weerd: Okay. Huff: I’ll make sure you get a copy. De Weerd: Now all the other areas or cities in the treasure valley have these ordinances. How does this stand up to the other ones? Is it more restrictive, less restrictive. Are there any major differences? Huff: Council member De Weerd. There really like I say I have not reinvented the wheel. It is a very conducive or very similar to every other ordinance from Caldwell to Nampa to Boise. It’s very similar to Boise’s ordinance in language. We have a little bit different deal going here then Boise does, they are a lot larger city. They have a lot more forest and right of way and issues to deal with. This ordinance as far as actually having to deal with it, we have a lot smaller forest to deal with so we have less issues to deal with but as far as being the same as -- similar to other ordinances in the valley and how it works and how its worded and how its administrated. Those things are very much the same. De Weerd: Okay I just have one last question. I know we’ve already asked you this before but I want to make sure it hasn’t changed. One of the concerns was Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 4 of 19 on this ordinance would be a time issue to staff. Will this take an extraordinary amount of time or is this pretty (inaudible). Huff: Well no I don’t think it will. I know that eventually we will get a feel for how much administration will take. I don’t feel like for the size of the forest that we have here in Meridian, which is mainly the older downtown core. A lot of the new right of way stuff out further in the city, some of those right of ways come right down the back of a sidewalk, private property right the back of sidewalk. We have a lot of areas that just don’t apply. Most of its downtown in here or in some of our older area. As far as administration time goes, in my personal experience in Caldwell it was easy for me to administer it, sporadically as the issues came up and I expect it to be that way here. I do spend a little bit of time on occasion with some things required out of the Landscape Ordinance. I haven’t lot yet, there are some more things that I’m sure I will in the future. There will be a time I think and I don’t know if it’ll be three to five years from now when we may end up having enough administration to look at having a full time person on staff for that. That’s a possibility, the first couple years or so I don’t particularly anticipate that to happen. De Weerd: Okay that’s great and we did get some of it cleaned up as far as what contradicted and trimming heights of branches that conflicted with the landscape ordinance. Huff: Yes, everything is pretty mirrored to that now. De Weerd: Thanks Elroy. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I don’t know how the other Council Members feel but I think we need to get a revised one drafted and final and bring it forward to us. Huff: Sure I’ll get you one. Bird: I think you’ve done a good job getting it going. Nichols: Mr. Mayor members of the Council. Just a reminder because there is a new fee a new permit that’s included you’ll need to have a Public Hearing on that fee issue. When we get it in ordinance form, which it should be relatively easy to do because Elroy has done all the heavy lifting on it. It’ll need to be, you can schedule the ordinance at the same time you schedule the Public Hearing but it would need to be sufficiently in advance for the clerk to get it noticed. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 5 of 19 Corrie: All right very good, thank you Elroy. Any other discussion on that with Elroy? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Yes. De Weerd: Question. Where did the fee come up? In the one, is that a recent addition? Huff: No its not. It’s always been there. De Weerd: Cause it says that this requires a permit but no fee. Huff: It’s further into the ordinance under licensing. It’s been in there the whole time I haven’t took it out. I might as well stay here I think I’m next on the next one. Corrie: I think you are too. Moving right along here if Mrs. de Weerd is satisfied with the ordinance that’s going to be changed here. Item 4. Discussion of Cherry Lane Golf Course Inspection: Corrie: The next one is discussion of Cherry Lane Golf Course Inspection. Huff: Thank you Mr. Mayor. I spoke with Matt Nelson in Twin Falls from the USGA. United States Golf Service about doing an evaluation of Cherry Lane Golf Course in conjunction with the (inaudible). The fee for that is about 1,900 dollars per day it’s a one-day event. The recommendations for that are intended to improve the playing quality and turf grass reliability within the scope of the resources available of the individual course. There is no – its an advisory service there is no judging or they don’t rate the condition of the course that’s not the point. The point of the service is to improve maintenance, efficiency, and quality of the course by identifying those things that need to be taken care of in order to make it that way. We’ve discussed some things and I have with the Mayor about ways that we would go about handling a fee for this. Whether the city would pay for the first time one and yearly after that the golf course would pay for it each year. We may need to decide whether it needs to be done each year it may need to only be done every other year. What they consider when they do this is they study irrigation, turf grass varieties, trees, how long you have irrigation water, all the maintenance practices in the course they set a day up ahead of time and make sure everybody is there that has much of anything to do with that to get their feedback during that day, and they do a lot of this kind of stuff. When they do about 120 of those evaluations a year then they can take all that data and put it together and they do that in conjunction with the kind of weather we Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 6 of 19 have in the area we have in this desert climate. All those kinds of things are rolled into that. When you get done with that you make specific recommendations that then Council and the leasee can decide how they want to go about taking care of whatever those things are that are identified. We like to th see that that was completed before the 20 of October we’d like to do that why we still may have a little water before we get to much heavy frost that way we can see what still is active in the growing season. Those are things that they asked me to bring to you when we talked about that. I haven’t been on that course very much at all I don’t really know anything about it. I’m interested in learning what goes on there on a few of those issues. I think that’s going to be really good. Any discussion? Corrie: Thank you we may have some right after – we would like to have Mrs. Butler. Huff: That would be fine. Corrie: Okay thank you Elroy. Butler: Joanne Butler, 251 East Front Street in Boise. I appreciate Mr. Huff calling the USGA to get an overview of what the service does and he could speak their language too so that was good. I think, we talked on the phone just briefly last week it seems like they offer a good service so again we’d ask the Council to consider that make that decision so we can go forward with the th inspection. I didn’t know about the 20, that’s great that would be nice if we could get it done really quickly. That’s all I have to add. Corrie: Okay Mrs. Butler in our discussion you stated that you would like for the city to pay for this full day inspection the first time and then from my understanding from then after any inspections or whatever they do will be done by the Golf Course people themselves under their lease. Butler: Yes the tenants would do that. Corrie: Okay. Questions of Council? Mr. Nichols. Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Mrs. Butler is your idea, your clients idea that this USGA turf service inspection helps satisfy the annual inspection requirement under the lease or what? Butler: What we found as far as we know there was never a final inspection with the course. There were a lot of changes in the course over time. Fairways widened, fairways narrowed, different things that affected the infrastructure, and we’ve not found any indication a final inspection was set out in the lease that it would be done and to our knowledge that was never done. We are looking at this as sort of the first inspection, a baseline inspection, something to so that we Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 7 of 19 all understand exactly what is at the Golf Course today. It would be the kick-off inspection. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: So in conjunction with that Mrs. Butler do we need to amend the lease to reflect this language that the Golf Course leasee will then take care of these inspections after this initial one? Butler: We may need to because I don’t believe that’s covered and we have been through, I mentioned the last time we met, that we’ve been through the files to try and determine how those changes occurred over time and so I think it would be worth looking at just a kind of a overview of the lease. To see if there are some things we might want to add or modify because those are fairly old leases. Corrie: Okay Council you have been asked to do the initial study or inspection here at a cost of it looks like 19,000 dollars. Excuse me 1,900 dollars that the city would pay for and then we would get with our attorneys and theirs and see if we can get some language about inspection of the Golf Course and taking care of any problems that arise out there. Is that correct? Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Yes, sir. Bird: I believe, I consider this as our final inspection of the Golf Course that should’ve been done that wasn’t done when the course was refinished and so I believe it is our responsibility to pay the nineteen hundred dollars and then we can work out on the others like Mr. Nary said we probably need to go in and look at the lease and get some new wording and stuff in there covering everybody. Yeah that is a motion. De Weerd: Second. Corrie: Okay motion has been made and seconded. To have the city pay the initial fee for the inspection of 1,900 dollars and then enter into agreements of sort to continue the inspection and how it would be done and the verbiage between the attorneys and that so. Any other discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. All ayes motion is carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 8 of 19 Corrie: So Elroy if you will get with them and then the attorney so we can get that done by that timeframe. Thank you very much guys I appreciate it. Item 5. Discussion of Carol Subdivision Survey Results – Brad Watson: Corrie: Next on the agenda is the discussion of Carol Subdivision survey results, Brad Watson. Watson: Thank you Mr. Mayor, I have a hard copy of the results I am going to hand out real quickly. The week before last we had some of our staff hand deliver these surveys to the residents of Carol Subdivision along with a cover letter. These results have trickled in up until about 4:30 this afternoon we received 22 out of 48 responses. The second through six pages are responses to each of the four questions with the fifth just being general comments that they volunteered. The first question was a very basic one, are you interested in connecting to the water and sewer system? On that fairly benign question approximately 40 percent were very interested or somewhat interested the remainder about 60 percent really had no interest in connecting. The second question got into a little bit more of a conditional connection, it asked if they would still be interested of those that answered yes on the first question were they still interested if they had to annex. Of those positive responses on the first questions they were all pretty much interested. When we get to the third question which talks about connecting and either annexing or signing a consent to annex agreement, the portion of people that were interested in connecting dropped to about 20, 25 percent. There are some fairly pointed responses listed below, those were all typed in verbatim. The fourth question asked if they would be interested in connecting and trying to put together an annexation application for the whole subdivision, this kind of mirrored the first question in which there were about 40 percent that still were willing to go forward with this. The fifth spot was simply a spot where they could provide any additional feedback, ideas, and comments. From reading these and talking to many of these people over the phone the past week, the two major concerns are first annexation and there’s obviously a very strong, there’s a segment out there with a very strong opinion that they want nothing to do with the City. The second theme that I picked up on was the cost, and there were many, many questions over the phone, not to many that you’ll see here in print but many questions about potential financing. Those hook up fees connection fees for the service stubs could run into the five thousand, six thousand, seven thousand dollar range and that doesn’t even include getting the line physically connected to their house on their property. I would think with good reason that was a concern for many of them. There were a handful three maybe four people that either through their responses or their phone calls or stopping in very excited about this. They wanted the whole subdivision to annex, they couldn’t wait they would do it tomorrow if they could. But those seem to be the minority, they seem to be concentrated on one Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 9 of 19 particular cul-de-sac as well. I can give you some to digest this or give you some time to answer any questions if you’d like. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Brad there is a lot of good information here, I guess I’m sort of back to square one when we started this discussion. What do you want us to do? Watson: The question before you is once we get done with this project do we allow people to come in submit an application and allow them to hook up to the services we’ve stubbed to their property line. Nary: And I guess I understand some of the bigger picture issue of that. I can’t think of a legal reason why we would tell somebody no. If they were contiguous they wanted to pay to hook up to the service. We were able to service their property, I can’t think of any legal reason why we would tell them no because their neighbor that’s four houses away that isn’t contiguous today doesn’t want to. I mean I think when we had the discussion earlier we talked about all or nothing or pieces and parts. I don’t know how we really can legally make it an all or nothing. I don’t know if we can do anything other than pieces and parts until someone has a failed septic system that are required to hook to the sewer by Central District Health like the lady we had a few weeks ago. If this Council and the Mayor want to make a decision about annexing enclaves involuntary because it makes more practical sense from Planning and service wise, we can certainly do that but we haven’t made that decision today. Otherwise, I guess I’m not sure any reason that we would tell somebody no thanks, just cause they want to and they can. Just cause there neighbors don’t want to. Maybe that’s just my opinion but I couldn’t see any reason why we’d turn someone away who could hook up and wants to do it. Corrie: Yes Brad I agree on that. I think once we have the sewer and water there if they want to hook up they want to annex, okay. If they don’t they don’t. If their system goes down then they will have. I don’t see any reason at this point, again like you said unless we all decide that we’re going to have a mass enclaves come into the city. Politically that’s good bad or indifferent at this point so that I can understand some of the people out there with the comments that I read some of them are very anxious to do it and the others said go pack sand eventually. My agreements with Mr. Nary that we’ve got it we put it there if they want to hook and if they want annex fine, they don’t that’s fine too. Council. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 10 of 19 Bird: That’s always been our stance you know if you want to hook and annex then I agree with Councilman Nary and the Mayor. If their system and they want to hook up then to water and sewer and they want to annex then they do it. I think you take it on up base and you know, each basis of applicant and see what they want to do. I don’t think we, I get this that on the percentages there’s none of these that are overwhelmingly interested you know. On being annexed and having the sewer and water to them. I think we should just stay to our policy that we’ve had for years. If that’s agreeable to you guys. Corrie: Anybody else disagree with that? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Oh go ahead. Watson: If I could refine the question a little bit more. If a property that is not contiguous to this city wants to connect to the city and signs consent to annex agreement. Is that still in line to what you all are thinking? Corrie: We’ve done it before. It would be pretty hard not to do it again. Bird: That’s been our policy. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I guess the only other thing I guess Brad that I would at least put on the record. There may come a time that this Council and the Mayor with the assistance of Public Works and Planning may want to discuss that issue about enclaves and looking at our City map and it looks more like Swiss cheese everyday. Carol Subdivision isn’t the only one, I mean there’s lots of areas in our city that our problematic in that area and they haven’t been a critical mass issue today but it might be at some point in the future. Then I think this along with those we need to have that conversation until we get to that point it probably won’t hurt us to continue on with what we’ve done in the past with this one and allowing them consent to annex if they want to hook up now to. Corrie: Eventually they will. Okay anything else Brad. Watson: The only other question that I will be asked during the next neighborhood meeting that I have with them and I think this will be very, this will make that neighborhood very happy the decision you’ve given me the direction you’ve given me. The only other question I will be asked is if there are options Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 11 of 19 available for financing if they do wish to hook up and either annex or sign a consent to annexation agreement. Maybe that’s not something that I need turn into a bigger can of worms then this subdivision right now. I think probably at this point I will tell them that everyone when they hook up they pay the fee. If that’s okay? Thank you. Corrie: Thank you. Item 6. Discussion of Waltman Lane and Corporate Drive Intersection – Mark Canfield: Corrie: The next item is the discussion on Waltman Lane Corporate Drive Intersection. Mark Canfield. Engh: Good evening Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name is John Engh and I represent the development partnership of CESCO and Arrow Development. Several years ago CESCO went under the guidance of Mark Canfield who just handed you your handouts, purchased three parcels of vacant industrial land at the junction of Meridian Road and Waltman Lane for a new CESCO John Deere dealership. After careful analysis of the market, CESCO then purchased 10 acres of properties over on Overland Road for the new CESCO headquarters taking advantage of the freeway exposure. With a capital infusion of approximately five million dollars, CESCO currently has an employee base of 60 full time Meridian’s and has been in the area since 1959 and has a solid presence in the community lead by Mr. Canfield. Over the past 12 months CESCO and Arrow have evaluated the vacant parcels on Waltman and Johnson lanes and now approach the City to recognize the site in its entirety over approximately plus or minus 65 acres for future development in encompassing a combination of class A retail and commercial enterprises. CESCO slash Arrow have (inaudible) purchased additional parcels which adjoin its current holding (inaudible) Waltman Lane with a development profile to inquire seven other contiguous parcels with our ultimate goal to assemble approximately 35 to 40 acres for future development. Our timetable best case is to complete these transactions in 2003 and 2004. We approach the Council tonight to address a key factor in our development plan, simply stated, it’s the access to the sight, traffic and its flow as both topics relate to the general area and the viability of a class A access to what we would consider to be a future class A sight. We have contracted with the Washington Right Of Way Group to represent our development venture and have Mr. Dave Szplitt here to speak to you on our behalf. Cesco slash Arrow has 12 months of homework completed regarding the development of the site and believes the subject property poses a dramatic opportunity for both the City and the development group to create a signature class A project with tasteful retail, compatible dining establishments and possibly a mixture of class A office. Time is limited tonight and our focus is the traffic slash access homework completed by the Washington Group. I’d like to introduce our Traffic Engineer Mr. Dave Szplitt with the Washington Right Of Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 12 of 19 Way Group to briefly explain his overview. Please refer to your packet of information for diagrams, outlines and history. Szplitt: Good evening Mayor, Council and Staff. My name is Dave Szplitt, I am an engineer with Washington Group as John explained. Our task was to take a look at the traffic elements needed to develop the Waltman Lane corridor. We looked at more then just the CESCO Arrow site, we were trying to resolve the whole area wide concerns. As you folks know the current roadway plan that was developed by ACHD, which is in your packet, my first exhibit there. Does provide adequate accessibility to the site if it’s going to be developed as an industrial use. Under the current assumptions that ACHD worked on back in, they started back in 98 I think or 97. The assumption was that it would develop more as an industrial use area and I had estimated approximately 8,000 daily trips would come out of that area and for that the roadway system is perfectly adequate. ACHD of course did their homework, however we also looked at the improved development potential for the corridor. Leaning more towards office use or recreation, commercial activities, and if there is a higher level of use we could expect up to 35,000 daily trips out of there. Which you can see is four times what the current roadway system was planned for. There is also a concern that if this was developed higher intensity use, whether we have adequate accessibility to the freeway interchange and visibility from Meridian Road. It is after all your entry statement to your city and we were looking at alternatives to make the roadway system work well for both parties. As I say, ACHD has already spent a considerable effort examining the Main Street Meridian Road corridors and the Meridian, Main and Central intersection, as I say their layout works just fine but as long as were restricted to lower density development. We found that we cannot adequately serve the Waltman Lane corridor if there develops at higher densities. There just isn’t enough roadway, the plan that ACHD had shows that Corporate Drive would be extended there as a two lane street course there are some extra turns at the intersection signal at Main at Meridian and Main. The connection that comes off of Waltman down near the Main Street intersection is a right in and right out only intersection. You could not come off Meridian Road and turn left into there or leave this site and go North, you’d have to take the Corporate Drive extension and a two lane road way cannot handle 35,000 cars a day. The Waltman corridor will need a revised transportation system to provide direct access to that Meridian’s Main and Central intersection. We think in the second graphic that I’ve given you. Which is the same as this large one here that we can put a fifth leg on to the intersection however it doesn’t really work if all the streets are two-way streets. I’ve been taught many years including some of them by Mr. Little that we do not doink up intersections putting too many left turns in, then you can’t do with five legs. The only way we can really have the potential to make that fifth leg work is if we change or you folks change or ACHD changed or we all change the two streets to two one way roadways. The ACHD concept would be to have Meridian Road as a one way south bound and Main Street as one way north bound that way those two streets essentially have to be as one street. Just think of it has one street as a wide center strip and then we reduce to Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 13 of 19 having four approaches to the intersection. As you probably remember from the previous work, all that whole couplet concept can be conducted with very little cost. In fact I think the original plan was ACHD could even do with their maintenance staff. It’s the five legged approach here the new one although its dependent on the two one way streets. It does greatly improve access to the Waltman corridor and it’s the only real way that we find that you can accommodate increased level development. Okay now that I’m all done, your probably saying well what’s he going to ask me for. Actually not much. We are going to say that we suggest that the City reopen the discussion of the two one way streets with ACHD, the couplet or the two one way streets is a low cost way to improve overall circulation and it is really the best or maybe the only way to support the full development of the Waltman roadway corridor. That’s the key parts of my discussion. I think this might be a good time if you have questions for me the developer or their attorney. Now I’ll get out of your way. I think Mr. Little from ACHD is here too, if you have questions about ACHD’s overall plan. I’m certainly not as knowledgeable as he is on the topic. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I would like to hear, I don’t know if Terry’s had a chance to look at this plan of theirs. I’d like to see what ACHD engineers think of their plan. Little: Mr. Mayor. Councilman Bird and council members. I just heard about it the last couple days. What Mr. Szplitt I think says is pretty accurate and that if you were looking to provide the full development of that area to its maximum potential you need to get rid of the fifth leg of intersection, which does that by making the Meridian and Main Streets a leg of them selves. They basically act as one leg. That has potential we haven’t looked at the, what the, that intersection would be like it has ramifications up stream certainly. Left turns – if you envision it somewhere that couplet has to end and that can be at Franklin which all the traffic would be north bound. You turn two onto Franklin and two right maybe onto Franklin and one ahead or something and there is issues regarding alignment and issues regarding capacity and different things like that. It’s usually the easiest at the intersection where they come back together neatly at this end its to bad that it doesn’t do that somewhere north of Cherry Lane back into Meridian and it would be a total natural but it does involve evaluation of a lot of other location s and a look at what would happen at Corporate and what would happen at Franklin at least perhaps farther up. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Yes, Mr. Nary. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 14 of 19 Nary: Mr. Little we have talked about this Waltman so much. Is this exhibit that was provided by CESCO Arrow, is this the last one? I can’t remember what our last discussion was as to what it was, cause they are talking about, I guess this doesn’t, this isn’t my recollection of what the last discussion was that it was still back at the right in right out and it was only. I thought there was still going to be left turn down Meridian Road. Szplitt: The exhibit this one is the latest exhibit. The white outline on that island there on the west side of Main Street and Meridian is an island that goes up and so there’s a right turn in out, out of that new little connector from Waltman up to Meridian. I believe this is pretty accurately conveys the latest scheme. Nary: So all the lanes lets go down, from that intersection going north on Meridian road. Are all south bound? Little: No this, it’s like this, this one is North bound and then the thing comes in about here and that’s a right turn in out. Nary: So there concern is not that there is any left turn down Meridian Road from Meridian north of the intersection I mean South of the intersection to the north that there is only one lane? Little: There concern is you get here and you can’t turn into there. We can’t allow that turn because it would back into this intersection. You would have to come up and have to take Corporate around or left turn back on Meridian turn right. It doesn’t have a direct. Nary: I see. Corrie: So with this they have a left turn goes into Waltman Lane right? Little: That couldn’t exist with – if this is made a one way you couldn’t have this left turn in, this doesn’t really totally portray how this will operate, I mean this would come in this would be a one way this would be a one way. Maybe Dave would like to stand up here and help me. To make this a one way these would all be to the north. These would all be to the south. Corrie: I see okay. Szplitt: I just drew the blue in the way ACHD had their part and added the red in. Corrie: Oh okay. Szplitt: To help you sort of orient yourself. These two would change. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 15 of 19 Little: So this arrow you couldn’t go across from there you would only be able to, well you could go across to here but you couldn’t across there you would go North or just straight across. Szplitt: The way to think of this is one street with a really wide median. The it becomes one, two, three, four intersections. Corrie: And you could still turn off central and go on to the highway I-84. Right? Szplitt: Yes. Corrie: Okay. Little: This would be very much like Main and Idaho Ave. Broadway, Warm Springs right in the actually its Warm Springs Idaho. They come together St. th Luke’s is right here. Yes Capital and University, 9 Street coming in. Exactly. This would be University and this would be Ann Morrison Drive and Capital to the Train Station. That would even be better to think of. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: For one you gentleman the north and south one way is Corporate to close to stop the one way or is it any advantage it’s what, less than a half mile from that intersection. Even a quarter. Probably wouldn’t do any good. Little: We looked at that as one of the last round of alternatives. I don’t think it was too terrible I don’t have those numbers with me. I’m trying to remember the disadvantages on that. Bird: If you throw there concept of Waltman coming out and having north and south to Corporate south on Meridian and north on Main. Terry is that going to throw to much traffic into that intersection at to many different? Little: Into the Meridian Main central? Bird: Yes and then Corporate so close. Are you going to back up traffic? Little: I think you would have to take it farther. Bird: Down to Franklin. Little: Probably at least to Franklin to get it out of the so it works. You come out Corporate, what happened. See Corporate you would either have to come across to the east side all the way over to Meridian and down or you would come Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 16 of 19 down try to get out Central. See to go north and to come out, you would be able to that from Waltman. Probably have to go a little further up at least to Franklin to make it some sense. We would have to see how those lanes fell out. It needs to be looked out more you know from a more complete. ***End of Side One*** Little: -- a bigger intersection on Meridian and Corporate then what we have. Bird: What kind of a cost addition is this that the developer is asking? Terry right off. Little: Well it depends on how extensive the thing ends up. Like Mr. Szplitt says, a lot of it you can do with any existing pavement because one way is more efficient then two way. The couplet that was looked at before that went up there required you know in the ultimate required more width on Pine Street to get traffic across it because of the conflicts and the amount of traffic circulating. It’s hard to say it really depends on whether it can work without widening Meridian beyond the three lanes it is. Bird: If you go one-way south though from Franklin to Meridian you wouldn’t have to widen it would you? That would give you three lanes that you go now. Little: It would be three lanes one-way. You would have more lanes then you need on Main. You would have to take the island out up there to make it work. It gets very confusing generally to try and run traffic on both sides of an island because people forget there on a way one street and they go to make an action that fits what would work on a two way street, and its very confusing so we need to corral them into a clear street section that is obvious who does what. Bird: We probably wouldn’t need that wide of a road though if we take that island and move it over to the east side of the road or something so we would have some kind of a landscape coming in that corridor. Little: That’s correct. You probably would need more than four lanes you have currently probably width for six out there at. Bird: I don’t want to lose the landscaping we got. I don’t like to lose the island but if we could move it over to one of the sides that would make --. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Could we use, and I understand what you are saying Terry about using those islands but when you are going north bound on Main Street there at Franklin at some point then you have to divert traffic to Franklin left to go west bound and as well as Franklin east bound and Main Street. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 17 of 19 Little: Correct. Nary: So I guess, I’m no engineer but it sounds like you could maybe not take out all of the islands but use some of that to then divide the traffic so that half of the traffic pattern would then flow to the left side of the island then be directed to Franklin and then to Meridian Road. The other side just staying on the right side would then be able to go up Main Street towards the center of town as well as right. Maybe there is a way to preserve some of it and not just move all of it so that we can maintain that gateway in to the city. Maybe there is a way to do that I don’t know. Szplitt: Yes that’s a thought. It does lead itself to a little confusion, the person next to the island making a left turn thinking they are in the left lane. You forgot to take the left two blocks back. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: It appears that this new idea has a pretty major effect on the intersections of Franklin and Main and Franklin and Meridian that would need some. Certainly some further study on how you would move traffic then off of Franklin on to Meridian if your coming from the east going west and you want to turn south. That’s a pretty short extent between Meridian and Main Street for stacking it just seems to now open this whole idea and needing a much bigger picture of how everything would be affected. I think this is on our agenda for the joint meeting. Maybe those things we can expand the look here and look at a broader picture on how this affects everything. Corrie: There’s got to be a way to get people on Waltman Lane from Main Street or otherwise that whole section down there is going to be left out. That could be a good entrance area there for the city so if we can work it out then I think that would be great because I would like to see some development down there at the Waltman Lane area that’s not happening right now. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I guess the other thing to with the discussion with ACHD is the timing since one of the things we talked about is the timing of Franklins widening which I think is 2004? Corrie: Franklin is 2004. De Weerd: Yes. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 18 of 19 Nary: 2004. I guess the issue would be whether or not if this is sooner then later then are we ripping the road up twice in the Franklin area so that the people are even more frustrated or is it something can be done somewhere close to the similar timing so that we aren’t tearing the road up two different times. I guess that’s just another issue to kind of lay on the table to discuss. Little: Mr. Mayor council members, Councilman Nary. I think that’s a good point with regard to the project at Central, Main, Waltman, Meridian. It’s 2004, that can be pushed back that’s not an issue. Franklin is a one that we need to make a decision on and the design and some expensive right-of-way purchases and some construction at Main Street. Even possibly on both sides trying to accomplish what we are trying to do and save that little gas station there from having to heavy of impacts right now. We really ought to see what that would like and try to make a decision in that, that’s an important one. I’d say that’s a critical timeline the other one can be pushed back until we get something that we’re 100 percent happy with. That’s not something we’re pushing forward, its critical. I think since we have a second light at Corporate there is more ways in and out of there and its providing that. It puts on hold that Waltman development to though that’s the problem. Corrie: That’s the only thing that concerns me at this point. Cause there is some good things can be done. Really, really good. Other then having that sand pile sitting there. Okay. All right. Okay. Council do you have any other questions of the CESCO Group or Washington Group? Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Does our staff? Corrie: Staff do you have any comments at this point? Steve. Siddoway: I’m just pointing out that, to Mr. Canfield that this project, this intersection is in this proposed Urban Renewal Area, or actually is in the Urban Renewal Area that was adopted and is affected by the Meridian Revitalization Plan. I was just suggesting to Mr. Canfield it would be a good idea to get him in front of the MDC board for this discussion as well so we can get that boards input. Corrie: Good point. We will do so. Okay. Any other comments. Canfield: Mr. Mayor, council members. Mark Canfield, 2000 East Overland Road Meridian. I just wanted to say I am a resident of the area and have been all my life and I think Meridian direly needs a gateway statement to the city. What we could develop there would be a definite enhancement for the city and we would hope we could work collectively and try to wind up with a project that makes everybody proud of the city that we live in here. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting October 1, 2002 Page 19 of 19 Corrie: I do too I really do too. Thank you. Anyone else that’s with that group. Okay very good. Thank you for coming tonight. We will work together and see if we can’t get things moving on this for you. Council that does end our discussion for the Pre-Council Meeting. I will entertain a motion now to close the Pre- Council Meeting. Nary: So moved, Mr. Mayor. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded all those in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:00 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK