HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 10-02 Special
Meridian City Council Special Meeting October 2, 2002
The Special Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:00 P.M.
on Wednesday, October 2, 2002, by Mayor Robert Corrie.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Cherie McCandless, Bill Nary, Tammy
de Weerd, and Keith Bird
Others Present: Mike Worley, Stacy Kilchenmann, Ken Bowers, Pauline Skeggs,
Gary Smith, Brad Hawkins-Clark, and Will Berg
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary
X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird
X Mayor Robert Corrie
Corrie: I will open the Meridian City Council Special Meeting for Wednesday
October 2, 2002 at 6:00 P.M. in the Meridian City Council Chambers. We will
have roll call attendance please Mr. Berg.
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Corrie: Council, you have the agenda in front of you for Item Number 2, adoption
of the agenda.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we approve the agenda as presented.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to accept the agenda as
presented. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 3. At 6:00 pm – Presentation on RFP for City Attorney / Civil
Legal Services by Bieter Werth & Walker, PLLC:
Corrie: Item 3 is at 6:00 P.M., presentation on an RFP for City Attorney Civil
Legal Services by Bieter Werth and Walker, PLLC. Mr. Bieter you have the floor.
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October 2, 2002
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Bieter: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, my name is Dave Bieter. These are
the members of our firm, Frank Walker and Doug Werth. I do have a – I believe
you have our detailed bid. We have put together a somewhat condensed
version, the music we are singing from tonight. We would like to take about ten
or 15 minutes and leave plenty of time for questions. We would like to each
introduce ourselves briefly and the experience we have. We will do a somewhat
more detailed look at some of the types of things that we have handled. Mr.
Walker will review the financial, the cost end of things. Then we hope to leave
plenty of time for questions. Again, my name is Dave Bieter. I spent seven
years in the civil division of the Ada County Prosecutors Office. During that time,
the county was self-insured. We handled virtually all civil matters that the county
had from civil rights and tort defense and litigation. We took Planning and Zoning
appeals to code enforcement and then the various Public Works projects that the
county had during that time. I held a similar post for Bonner County up at
Sandpoint. Then I spent three years in private practice representing almost
exclusively municipalities. My main responsibilities were the City of McCall, City
of Kuna, mostly the Planning and Zoning parts of Eagle, and the City of Star.
With various projects for the City of Middleton and I believe that is the only other
one. I spent three years at that. The firm has been together for a year. We were
all contemporaries at the University of Idaho Law School. We have held various
positions in public service and private practice and formed the firm about a year
ago. With that I will let each give a brief introduction and we will go from there.
Walker: Mr. Mayor and Council members, I am Frank Walker. It is interesting
standing on this side of the podium. This is up close and personal. I graduated
from the University of Idaho School of Law in 1987 and clerked for a year with
Judge Banks in Moscow and then moved down to Boise with my wife. I was in
general practice for two years, two and a half years. Primarily litigation type
practice as an associate. I then went to the Attorney General’s Office where I did
local government liaison work, advising local governments on various issues.
They would call up asking can we do this, can we do that, and did a lot of opinion
writing and academic work on local government issues. I also represented the
Lottery Commission, the Liquor Dispensory, and the Athletic Commission. In
doing that, I also appeared before the legislature routinely. It was a great
experience it was five years I truly enjoyed. After that, I went back into private
practice for two years and was just building a firm when lost my mind and ran for
County Commissioner. Because of the good folks out in Meridian getting up to
40 and 45 percent in some of the precincts, I actually beat Glenn countywide. I
then sat on the County Commission for four years and which I again handled a
great many duties from Planning and Zoning, EMS, well I could go on – but it
was a very interesting experience. I worked with many of you during that time.
After that, I did a bit of work with St. Alphonsus as a local government liaison for
the Magic Valley when they were trying to move into the Magic Valley to
purchase the Twin Falls Clinic and hospital. Then last summer Dave Bieter and
Doug Werth and I got together and formed this law firm. Its focus is primarily on
local government issues. We consider ourselves a full service law firm, but our
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October 2, 2002
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expertise has been embiewed with a great deal of local government issues, state
issues, and agency issues. With that, I will let Doug introduce himself. Thank
you.
Werth: I guess its up to me to be the long winded one. They took those three
minutes seriously. My name is Doug Werth and I am one of the partners in the
firm of Bieter Werth and Walker. I practice primarily in the City of Ketchum. I
grew up here in Boise, went to high school with Dave and law school at the
University of Idaho. I have been up in Blaine County since 1995. I served for
five years as the County Prosecuting Attorney. As you know the County
prosecuting attorney prosecutes criminal actions but also represents the County
on land use and other civil matters such as employment matters and a whole
wide variety of civil matters. I think that is the one thing drew the three of us
together was that we all have a very strong interest in local government law,
municipal law, and land use. Myself personally, I have been doing land use
litigation for the last seven years. With the county for five years and the last two
years up in Blaine County. I have enjoyed the litigation part of it, but I have also
very much enjoyed working with cities and counties in developing ordinances and
trying to come together to have coherent and rational approach or goal toward
growth. I have been very involved in ordinance drafting from transferring
development rights ordinances to wireless facilities ordinances to amendments of
the subdivision and zoning ordinances up there. I think I can speak for all three
of us and say that we are practicing in this area because we very much enjoy it.
It is where we intend to practice now and in the future. I think one of the real
advantages or fun things about for a local government, whether it’s a municipality
or a county, is that you kind of get to be the in-house counsel and you get to be
involved in a lot of different legal matters. You get to work with the same group of
clients, the City Council Members and mayor, and my experience has been that
it’s rewarding intellectually but it is also very fun. In terms of litigation that I have
been involved with, from land use, Comprehensive Plan litigation, to Conditional
Use Permits, Variances, things of that nature. Also part of my duties as County
Prosecutor was also to advise with respect to the open meeting laws, the public
records laws, which as you know are extremely important and they are the sorts
of things you don’t want to mess up on. Because newspapers can go crazy
when there is an open meeting violation. These are all things that I think all three
of us understand from a personal level. My experience, as I said, I graduated,
went to law school with Frank and Dave, so we graduated in 1986 and 1987. I
have been practicing here in Idaho ever since. I think you have before you a
written package that goes over some of the other areas that we haven’t
discussed in terms of our work experience. I guess I will leave it to your
questions.
Bieter: Maybe before that, I will take you through the handout briefly. You have
heard a bit about us and we hope that the experience and abilities we bring to
this, you will see as an advantage to the city. We think, put in at least a couple
sentences, the advantage of going with our firm would be you would get one of
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the experienced attorneys always available to handle your issues. We know we
can commit to that. Any of us have a wealth of experience. We plan to probably
put a particular attorney handling certain matters but any one of us can handle
and have handled a broad range of issues. We will always have at least one
attorney available to you. That way, we will not assign an associate out here or
either to come out here or to do your work. It will be handled by an experienced
attorney. The other thing that we believe gives us a unique perspective is that
we have all held or hold a public office. We understand what it is like to sit in
those seats. We understand the difference between your positions and ours. You
are the ones that make the decisions and we want to give you the best
information and resources to do those. We don’t expect to make those for you.
We understand where those lines are. I believe that may be unique to this state
to have partners who have served in that capacity. I think that gives us a
perspective that we believe helps us be better attorneys. We also believe that in
contrast with perhaps a bigger firm that we are more nimble in that way. We can
react quicker and we will go into that in more detail – but more cost effectively.
There is no big firm to feed hours and money. We have a broad range of
experience and handle a lot of cases but we have a particular background in
issues that we believe will come up in Meridian. With that, the details in
submitting our bid we went – we believed it was best to go through all the areas
that you requested in the RFP. What we have done in these couple of pages is
highlight what we think are sort of the guts of what you handle here in Meridian
and briefly we will review what we have handled in those areas. In the sewer
and water area, I had the good and bad fortune perhaps of being assigned to the
City of McCall when they were in throws of some big issues in the area of sewer
and water. We are happy to say that we were able to navigate those areas for
them. They were the only city in the state with an order of no discharge into the
river. That necessitated a huge public works project that finished about a year
ago. They had multiple pieces of litigation that came from that as well as issues
of what rates to charge, the collection of those fees. It was about a three-year
intensive lesson in a lot of the issues cities face across the state. In the area of
police and fire, again, the county was self insured, during the time I was there.
We defended them, gave them advice on all their employment issues, including
matters of the Fair Labor Standards Act, the Equal Rights Act, civil rights
defense, and a good deal of training. Mr. Werth and Frank Walker have all given
advice to various entities and dealt with police and fire issues in an elected
capacity as the prosecutor in Blaine County. The third item I have here,
development services, is really perhaps our strongest point. We have all dealt
with those issues at every level. We have litigated a number of cases that the
Idaho Supreme Court has decided. Doug Werth in Blaine County, where people
seem to push about every Planning and Zoning issue around, because there are
the resources to do that, has been involved in a number of those issues.
Obviously, Frank Walker, from the other end of the podium for four years on the
Ada County Commission. I had a wealth of Code Enforcement cases for Ada
County during the time I was there. Just reviewing the last few – personnel
again. We have all litigated those cases, advised clients on those matters. From
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disciplinary actions to training on sexual harassment or work place issues, wage
and benefit cases and advice. In the administrative areas, we handled a number
of ordinances put together and advised local governments on budgets. We have
advised and litigated open meetings and public records issues. I finished one up
about a year ago for the City of McCall. It went to the District Court level. Frank
Walker handled the other end, prosecuting a case on behalf of the Attorney
General’s office. In the area of construction litigation, we have been involved in a
number of those types of projects. I helped with the design bid of the Bonner
County Jail in the time I was at Sandpoint. In the Ada County Courthouse
project, Frank had a good deal on. As I alluded to the McCall Public Works
project which was quite a big project. With that I will let Frank tell you the
specifics of the costs we are proposing. We would then be happy to have your
questions.
Walker: Thanks Dave. We have again this is set out with bullets. Our base
monthly contract price would be 13,650.00 dollars per month. We envision that
to be a comprehensive package. In discussing Dave, in his prior experiences
with his firm and the experiences with other cities, it is often times put forth in a
base contract with a great deal that immediately goes outside of the contract. It
becomes extraordinary. What we envision is that we will provide full time legal
services that will come under the contract price. Again we talk about costs. I don’t
– actual costs, filing fees and things like that I imagine would be negotiated prior
to signing a contract just so there is no misunderstanding. Extraordinary costs –
we wouldn’t undertake anything that is beyond the scope of what would be
ordinary unless we came to you and said we have some extraordinary costs. I
can’t envision what they are, but just in case some came up, we wanted to let
you know that we would come before the City Council and mayor and talk to you
about it before you got a bill you weren’t aware of, or wasn’t approved and we
somehow thought was prudent and reasonable. Our fee is calculated as a full
time attorney for the city at 35 hours per week at 90 dollars per hour. Between
David and myself and Doug, we anticipate one attorney, and more if necessary,
but a city the size of Meridian could have an attorney on staff to provide legal
services on a full time basis. That is what we feel you need. We will play to our
strengths when necessary David has had a great deal of experience with water
and sewer. It would take me some time to come up to speed on some of those
issues, but Dave would come right in. we will keep our hours, if you need to
check them and see whether or not you are getting 35 hours or more. It is up to
you. We wanted to make it available to you. If by chance that we are going well
over 90 or – 35 hours per week rather, that is our problem. If we have to spend
150 or 160 per week, we are going to have to do that. I think in our bid proposal,
we set forth what we thought was the contract basically. What would be outside
of that would be again, comprehensive legal services, including all pre-litigation
investigation, analysis and recommendations. There is a considerable amount of
time that goes into problems before they ripen into litigation. If you have
exclusion in a contract that says litigation, it is something you have to pay an
hourly rate for above and beyond. That can kick in pretty early but if we limit that
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October 2, 2002
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to when a complaint is filed against the city or on behalf of the city, before that
goes outside of the contract, everyone is fairly clear, that we will handle litigation
up to a point when a complaint is filed. After that time, since it is impossible to
know what may or may not come down the road, we feel that litigation beyond a
complaint being filed would be outside and done on an hourly basis. We would
staff all of your meetings, Planning and Zoning and City Council Meetings. We
would split Planning and Zoning and Council. There is some feeling that if one
lawyer staffs both, then the review – the Planning and Zoning Commission is not
as fresh or independent if you have one lawyer steering it through. You have
one lawyer who handles Planning and Zoning and then passes it on to the next
level you truly do have an independent review by the City Council. They may
bring a different perspective or advice to it. Not meaning that we are precluded
from talking about it or handling back and forth different meetings, but again it is
just something that we feel would work best. Then on the administrative
processes, drafting contracts, ordinances, resolutions, Findings of Fact and
Conclusions of Law, quasi-judicial proceedings, the Council participates in, we
would handle all those things such as the bidding process and decisions on
ordinances – again we would cover that. Judicial Reviews of Planning and
Zoning decisions and including appeals to the Idaho Supreme Court or Court of
Appeals, take it through soup to nuts – in looking at it, I don’t know that there are
that many going up to the Court of Appeals or Supreme Court from District Court.
Again, if we are going to litigate it in District Court, we should be willing to take it
up to the next level. A lot of the work is already done at District Court level
anyway. We would also like to schedule regular office time at city hall to be
available. One of the disadvantages for – I mean I don’t see it as a critical
disadvantage, but being in Boise, would be the distance and we are not around
and not available but always a phone call away. We would like to schedule
regular office time in the city at certain times so we are available to go over
whatever, basically. I think that would help us too, as far as developing a
relationship with staff and department heads so there is a comfort level from top
to bottom. If there was a problem, they could call us just as if they could walk
across the corridor to speak to an attorney. It doesn’t have to necessarily always
come through the Council. That is type of relationship we are looking for. Any
additional legal services which would be outside of the contract would be at the
commencement of litigation, a complaint was filed, then we would go off and bill
at an hourly rate. Major revisions – if there were major revisions to the city code
or Comprehensive Plan, having undertaken zoning ordinance amendments at
Ada County, which took – oh, I started before I got on the board, and we finished
last year I was on the board. That is a major undertaking. The major overhauls.
Then judicial confirmation again something we can’t anticipate and budget for.
That is basically it. I think we do, in order to complete this, have questions about
the age of our firm being one year, and our staffing and resources, and I was
going to ask myself a question. Where is your weakness in relation to a
competitor? That is we are new. We have been together a year – we made the
first year and most authors talking about starting the law firms say if you made
that first anniversary year, you are in good shape. We have staff right now,
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adequate to handle our needs right now. We would have to hire additional
clerical staff. We would not hire additional lawyers, but we would have to hire
clerical staff and we are prepared to do that if awarded the contract. We would
hire a full time person, actually dedicate primarily to the City of Meridian. Our
place right now, as far as where our client base is, is that we have a nice practice
started and we have room to grow in our existence right now. Not room to grow
with five more attorneys, but we have time to devote to a contract like this and it
would be a good fit. I think Dave and I each could devote half of our practice to
the city and be able to handle that at this point in time. That would then make us
determine what else we wanted to do. Meridian would be our primary client and
be our highest priority. Its a nice time in our practice where we could take
something like that on and devote time to it without having to cram it into a larger
existing firm and try to make it work. With that, we are willing to stand for
questions that you may have.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Frank, which one of the attorneys would be the lead attorney for us?
Someone who would always be familiar and up to speed? I want to ask this
because I know that David for three months out of the year is a very tied up man
at the Legislature, so I take it that you would be the lead attorney to the City of
Meridian.
Walker: We had not drawn straws yet, but that is certainly a possibility. I have –
I could do that easily. Dave does have the legislature he contends with, which
provides him a considerable amount of time in the evening and other times. The
other thing I anticipated in working on the RFP was that project-by-project, things
come along, and that again, sewer and water may be something Dave has a
particular knowledge in and so he would be the contact for that. As far as the
Council having a lead attorney so that if anyone needed to call someone, get
someone on the phone, if you wanted to call me first that would be fine.
Bird: I think we just want to see something that, you know, that one person is up
to speed on the problems and if he goes on vacation, someone else is there that
is up to speed to. That we are not – our work isn’t setting aside for two weeks
while he is on vacation.
Walker: No. We fully anticipate both of us would be very active in the
representation of the city. As we see it develop, there is more work throughout
the city than one person can necessarily handle. Being knowledgeable about
every project and if it turns out that I become the lead attorney for general, just
say general – that is fine.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
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Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Maybe to take that a bit further, I guess I would be interested in
knowing who would attend Council Meetings, look at the continuity to ensure
from meeting to meeting that knowledge was maintained and you knew what
happened the week before. How would you keep each other informed as to
some of the pending issues and so that things don’t fall through the cracks and
aren’t dropped off the radar screen.
Walker: We would anticipate one attorney would follow Council. Again, another
attorney would handle P & Z. It would not be back and forth. If it turned out, and
again, I don’t think either of us have any anticipation that it has to be one or the
other at this time. Yes, if I were handling Council Meetings, I would be the
person who was there every week. If Dave were handling Council Meetings, he
would be there every week. Same with Planning and Zoning, that person would
be there every week. We have regular office meetings where if there is a
particular problem that we needed to discuss so that both of us were involved in
it, and had knowledge of it, certainly we anticipate that that would happen. We
are handling cases right now in a similar fashion. Where we have our own cases
and we also have cases that walk in the door and we both join in on and work
them together in a lot of ways. A certain point in time one lawyer starts dong
more work on it, but the other is there assisting and understands the issues so no
one is out there sailing by themselves off on the wrong branch. We do support
each other quite a bit. Am I answering your questions?
De Weerd: To a certain extent. The follow up question I have to that is, as you
outlined in your proposal, we have a lot of different areas that staff would be
contact you regarding. Would you have one person that they would contact or
you have your list of specialties and they would contact a person who is
specialized in that area. How would you arrange so that our staff knew whom
they needed to be working with on one particular area or issue?
Walker: We would structure that so one attorney would take sewer, water, which
is the large enterprise fund for the city. Perhaps David would take that. Police
and Fire, I can handle that. If it’s a purchasing question, which both of us have
quite a bit of understanding about, we could handle either of those questions, but
if that department wanted to call me, because I am in contact with them primarily,
that would be the best thing. I would anticipate that we would to a certain extent,
develop relationships with the department heads rather than saying Dave does, I
do this, you do this – again, it will be, someone will call two or three times, catch
that person, have a good dialogue going and that relationship naturally evolves. It
has as much to do with communication as it does expertise. Any three of us
could, I am confident, handle the work of the city attorney if you were to put it out
for in house. We have a broad breadth of expertise where our weaknesses may
be individually we can either pick them up quickly or rely on the other. I hope I
am giving you an answer – I am saying we can handle anything. Eventually,
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October 2, 2002
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relationships will develop between particular department heads and a particular
attorney. Whether it is 70 percent me and 30 percent Dave, and me 50, 50, I
don’t know. We will handle that. There may be comfort levels. The chief of police
may determine he thinks Dave is a great guy and really likes to talk to him more
than – that is the way those things happen.
Werth: (inaudible) it is important that (inaudible) if it works out that it is easier for
the city to call Frank and then he determines whether to send a particular
question to Dave or whatever, that is fine. I have heard for the last couple
minutes, just talking about Dave and Frank. I actually do practice and I wanted to
bring it up because I am physically removed. I communicate with these guys on a
daily basis with email and on the telephone. We talk about our cases. One of us
has an interesting case we will call the other and talk about it. We really do – you
are going to get three heads going over the important issues that come up for
this city. I think that is an important asset that we bring. Three individuals that
each alone could probably do most of the work but we will be bouncing those
important questions off one another and I think as Frank said, it will probably
evolve where Dave works more with one department than Frank does. I want to
emphasize that you are going to get three attorneys who are working for you. I
have clients that aren’t in Blaine County. I represent Valley County for example in
some litigation. With the Internet and all that, it really is very easy to do.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I wanted to ask David a question. Are you running to retain your
seat in the House this year?
Bieter: I am.
McCandless: Okay. If one of you, say goes to P & Z and believe me I have been
involved with the Legislature for many years, so I know the hours that have to be
put in down there particularly during the end. If one of you were going to P & Z
and one to City Council, how would you handle that during the session with Mr.
Werth being two and a half hours away?
Bieter: I am glad you asked because I have had the better part of four years of
experience handling that issue. I did the bulk of the work for three cities.
Especially the City of McCall, which was quite needy shall I say, during that time.
I have been able over the years to – I had the decision, they gave me the
decision and I exercised it to place my committee assignments in the afternoon,
so I have a bulk of time in the morning free in the early part of the Legislature.
They may not appreciate my saying this, but nothing much goes on for several
weeks there. You may say for several weeks after that nothing goes on either,
but – I found the last two weeks are, especially the last week, are really full. I
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October 2, 2002
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have been able to place my committee assignments in the afternoon and the
local government and judiciary rules. The mornings are free. Especially in the
early going, almost the whole morning – we usually go in about 11:30. Then I
handled – the good news was evenings, were open as least as far as your
specific assignments so that I continued handling McCall by myself and night
meetings for two other cities during the three years or two and a half years I was
with another firm. I have been able to control to a certain extent and become
experienced on how to handle it so that it works out quite well. During that time
of the day where I am at the Legislature, Frank will be the main contact then. As
a back up, Doug Werth. I – if this were the first year, I might be more concerned,
but we have worked several of the bugs out of it. Also amazing how good the
amazing the communication is from the seats themselves. We have a phone,
email, and Internet right there at the seats.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess I can ask a question tonight anyway. I was going to ask Mr. Bieter,
that last I recall your firm is handling case adverse to the City of Meridian. I
wondered how would you deal with that if we were to select your firm?
Bieter: Well, the particular case at least that I have in site, is in the process of
being resolved. The Westborough Subdivision issue. I think there is a bit more to
do but I think that is about to go away. I believe I better let Frank speak to the
other one. We wouldn’t – I think they are all about to be resolved.
Walker: The only other case that is in conflict is Kodiak. That may be resolved as
well. If it was not resolved and you appointed us, we would have to remove
ourselves from that case for Mr. Jewett. As far as the City and having to carry
that through, we could not handle that, as it would be a conflict. I think that there
is some chance that that will resolve itself. If not, we will deal with that. We don’t
have any other clients at this point and time that have any conflicts with the City
of Meridian whatsoever. It is just those two cases.
Nary: Mr. Mayor. One more question for Frank please on the contract price. If I
understand correctly, that 13,650 dollars that is including work for the department
that are enterprise funds. There isn’t a separate charge for that. If I understood
you also, you based that figure on a 35-hour workweek. If it were to exceed that,
there wasn’t an additional charge for that as long as you were within the
contracted services. Is that correct?
Walker: Correct.
Nary: Thank you.
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October 2, 2002
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Corrie: Frank, I am not an attorney, so kind of help me here. What are plus
actual costs? What are those? What do you consider actual costs?
Walker: An actual cost – copying charges that are internal. Again, I think in our
bid we said we would negotiate those costs. Filing fees that if we have to do
something, our firm has to expend money on behalf of the City of Meridian, out of
our own pockets, those types of costs. It is not our own internal costs we wouldn’t
charge mileage to drive out here. Our secretarial or any of those costs, that we
have internal would not be costs to the City. It is just again, I am trying to make a
clear distinction – it is hard when presently the costs we charge when we are
involved in litigation, there is a filing fee, depositions cost a certain amount of
money. It is just – we have to write checks to outside vendors. Postage. Those
types of things are costs. As far as hidden costs that come often times with law
firms, we don’t anticipate anything like that where all the sudden you are getting
a paralegal fee for 45 dollars per hour or something like that. If we hire someone
to do some research, that is our cost.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: One thing you said about copying costs – you are talking if you have to
submit ten copies of a brief to something for an appellate argument or something
like that?
Walker: Yes, and again we will establish that before we sign a contract. If its ten
cents per copy – it’s generally those extraordinary copying versus those two
copies here and there we don’t keep track of. If we have to make 200 copies on
a project, that is when those come in.
Corrie: Any other questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Thank you gentlemen, we appreciate that.
Bird: Thank you gentlemen.
Corrie: Well, we can take about a five-minute break and hear from another firm.
(Recess at 6:40 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 6:50 p.m.)
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 12 of 30
Item 4. At 6:45 pm – Presentation on RFP for City Attorney / Civil
Legal Services by White, Peterson, Morrow, Gigray, Rossman,
Nye & Rossman, P.A.:
Corrie: Okay, Bill you are on for White, Peterson, Morrow, Gigray, Rossman,
Nye, and Rossman, P.A. Bill Nichols.
Nichols: Thank you Mr. Mayor. I am Bill Nichols. I am a shareholder in the firm of
White Peterson. I have promised to be succinct. We have submitted a written
proposal which I hope has sufficient detail in it and know you have all read
through it. Just to give you some background on our firm. Our firm traces its
roots to 1968. Since it’s founding in 1968, the firm has had a considerable
emphasis on municipal law. The firm represented and continues to represent
Nampa. It has in the past represented the City of Caldwell. Current municipal
clients include, as you know the City of Meridian since 1998, Nampa as I
mentioned, Homedale, Wilder and Melba. In addition, some of the lawyers,
particularly Bill Gigray, also represent some other quasi-municipal entities such
as highway districts. I know he has a couple of Highway Districts that he
represents. We have an extension background in municipal and quasi-municipal
clients. My own background you can see from the resume that was included, you
know I have been at your meetings for the most part since February of 2000. I
joined the firm in August of 1999 and prior to that time my practice was based in
Oregon. Although I have been a member of the Idaho Bar since 1986, my work
in Oregon included representation of some small cities, which gave me the
advantage of being involved in a lot of different things from litigation to
prosecution to things as diverse as collective bargaining. I personally bargained
three separate initial contracts with two different unions and also participated in
bargaining on a fourth contract. Our proposal contains staffing that would
propose me as the lead counsel. Terry White, who is here today, I think most of
you know, and Chris Nye is back up to me as far Council meeting coverage.
Currently Nick Wollen has been attending the Planning and Zoning Commission
meetings. We had at, at least I initially hoped that we would be able to use Pam
Tarlow – and I think I explained in a previously letter to Council that she is going
to be working for the appellate division of the public defenders office. We would
really like to be able to get another associate to help with the Planning and
Zoning Commission Meetings. Part of that is to give them some exposure, part
of that is so that one individual doesn’t take all those meetings that go until
midnight or 1:00 as they often do to give some exposure in a different setting to a
younger lawyer. We also, and I will describe this a little later, are doing a better
job of mentoring with some of the younger lawyers so we can take care of an
issue that different Council Members have raised with me. That is – since I have
been the primary lead Counsel for the city, one of the issues that has been
brought up is, what do we do when you are gone? I know I won’t have another
gall bladder attack. I do like to take an occasional vacation. The Council
Meeting format change --
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 13 of 30
(***End of Side One***)
Nichols -- does give an opportunity to not necessarily spread the load too much
as to be able to find some meetings at which less experienced lawyers perhaps
or other lawyers can get some exposure to Meridian. With the right kind of
coaching and training, be able to provide advice as needed at meetings and also
provide some back up. That would be one of our goals should you choose to
continue with us, would be to mentor some folks to be able to take meetings.
The very first Council Meeting I ever attended was I was a brand new lawyer and
the senior partner in the firm that hired me out of law school, took me to a
Council meeting in the large community of Adrian Oregon, about 150 souls. His
purpose in doing that was that he knew he was going to be gone the following
summer. He had be accompany him to the monthly meeting every month for six
or seven months so I got to learn the processes, got to learn how to take minutes
because the lawyer took minutes, and also learn the personalities and different
things. Part of what I hope to be able to do with someone like Nick Wollen would
be have him come to Council meetings, sit in the audience and see how you
work. See the kinds of things that you do so that when he takes a meeting, that
he would see the different processes and understand them better, and also do
some prep work ahead of time to make sure he understood some of the issues
that would be coming up. That is what we would like to do. We believe that
having Terry able to cover some meetings, Chris, mentor some less experienced
lawyers, we should be able to take care of some of the concerns Council has had
about what happens when Bill is not around. I wanted you to know that that is
part of what our proposal is. I would like to go now to what would be contained
within what I call a retainer services and services outside the retainer. Retainer
services would include four Council Meetings per month and that includes the
Pre-Council Meetings the two Planning and Zoning Commission meetings per
month. One monthly staff meeting – I don’t think I have attended but one or
maybe two staff meetings, and what we propose to do is have me come to one
monthly staff meeting. I think, Mr. Mayor, don’t you have two per month? At least
once a month come to a staff meeting and interact with staff at that meeting and
also sometimes you get a heads up on things that are coming on. We would
propose to add that. Quarterly you meet with the Ada County Highway District,
and I have attended those and would continue to attend those meetings then the
routine telephone and office conferences that come up. You get a call from Dave
McKinnon in Planning and Zoning Department that has a question or Steve
Siddoway or Brad Hawkins-Clark. Those things come up, they have a question
we are able to talk about that, -- it might be a Sign Ordinance question. It might
be is this a miscellaneous application or how we handle this particular issue.
Those kinds of things, we have done and would continue to do. Conferences, I
call office conferences, conferences on site, what I have typically done is met
with the department heads at their office or staff at their office. If it is a Public
Works issue, I go to Public Works. If its Planning and Zoning issues, I go to their
office. If it involves the Mayor, we meet in the Mayor’s conference room and
perhaps other staff members. I go to the Parks Department to meet with the
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 14 of 30
Parks Director. That is the way I did those face-to-face meetings rather than
have them come to our office. I went to them, I would continue to do that, and
whoever might be assigned to a particular matter, if there is a certain issue,
would do the same thing. We would not ask them necessarily to come to our
office. We have of course, drafting ordinances, resolutions and agreements as
contained in the retainer. I would also mention in this proposal some legislative
involvement. Terry White is on the AIC Legislative Committee and in the last few
Legislative sessions, both he and I have been asked to participate and assist
with annexation legislation. That included drafting part of it and appearing and
testifying on some of those issues to try to preserve the city’s ability to annex.
We would want to be able to do that as part of what we would see as rendering
service to the city. Obviously we check with the Mayor. If it’s an issue that that
Mayor said there is no way, AIC is out in left field and I don’t want you going, we
wouldn’t. If it’s a matter generally on a matter like this one on annexation, we
think it benefited the City of Meridian by our involvement. We would continue to
do that. As I explained in our proposal, occasionally you have citizen or
customer inquiries. You have a call from a citizen who has an issue or you have
the Helen Bevington letters that you have to respond to. You have some of these
that come up. We would continue to do that. That would be part of the service
that we would render. We would review and comment on any draft policies. We
have done that, police policies, personnel policy, purchasing policy. Any of those
things would be included. Things that are outside of the retainer would be things
that are typically under the category of litigation. Which would include arbitration,
judicial confirmation, judicial reviews, and lawsuits essentially. A change from
what we have done before is to have outside the retainer, recommendations,
findings and orders for development applications and Council decisions. One of
the trends, and I think it has been a goal of different members of the Council, to
get a better product in terms of a Planning and Zoning decision, and that means
a better product at the beginning and following through. Nampa prepares their
own findings. I am not sure exactly how Boise City does but Kent Brown made a
presentation to the Council at a workshop when he was still on Planning and
Zoning Commission, I think that was in 2000. Saying here is how you can do it to
where Planning and Zoning staff has basically ahead of time, what is proposed to
be the findings. It is out to the development community ahead of the meeting to
look at, and that sort of thing. The former Planning and Zoning Director was very
resistant to that approach and it didn’t get anywhere. We are saying that we
think that is where you need to be. We don’t see that as something that is
continuing be contained inside the retainer. We would work with staff to get
those processes in place to be able to do that so that you have a better product.
The public and the development community customers have a better product. I
think we have worked hard to get better recommendations. We have worked
hard to get better findings, more accurate findings, and we try to catch some of
the things that happen. We want to continue to improve that process. That is
why our proposal is that it would be outside the retainer. Other things that are
outside the retainer are personnel investigations, bond proceedings, local
improvement districts – it has been a while since you have done any of those. It
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 15 of 30
may be that you start to implement some of those things. Impact fee work, if we
have to do a public safety impact fee to try to help pay for fire stations, that kind
of thing, would be outside. Construction bidding disputes, like the problem we
had on the White Trunk, involves a lot of time, and that one did involve a lawsuit
but then to help resolve it we had to have the hearing. Part of what we did was
we had a hearing procedure that we had to draft. We did a memo to you. We
help organize the exhibit list and a lot of those sorts of things so that we tried to
get all the things in front of you. Comments I had from counsel involved in the
case was that those things were very helpful to them to be able to present the
issue to you like we did. We would see that as something outside, and if I recall
correctly, that was also a special meeting. It would be outside the retainer. If
there are collective bargaining sessions currently, you only have the fire
department union, I am not saying that we wouldn’t be drafting the agreement
and a clause or two, that is not really – if we are talking about head to head
collective bargaining, where you are sitting down at the table and you are going
clause by clause by clause through a contract, which I have done – or you have
some big issues and you are talking about the numbers where it takes a lot of
time. That would be outside the retainer. The retainer we have proposed is
17,500 dollars per month if we are allowed to basically staff and operation and
house it in Nampa. It is 21,000 dollars per month if we continue to keep our
Meridian office where it is. The reason for that is, just without the criminal
prosecution, the need for the office here is considerable diminished. I mean, we
needed contact with police officers we needed contact with the victims. We had
two prosecutors and essentially three support staff people for the criminal
prosecution that were housed here. As well as the civil secretary, Marlene St.
George and an office I had here. I had an office in both places. That is the
reason for the difference. As I pointed out in the proposal, we are, I think Terry
and I timed it at -- are less than 15 minutes away in Nampa. My track record and
others who have represented the city from White Peterson is that we have been
very accessible by telephone, by email and our ability to have conferences and
visits here with staff. Outside the retainer, it would be 125 dollars per hour for
partners and 100 dollars per hour for associates, 60 dollars per hour for legal
assistants doing work that a lawyer would otherwise do. The out of pocket
expenses would be at the customary rates. That means, mileage, if there is
mileage involved in a lawsuit that would be at the IRS mileage rate. If there was
parking expense, it is just the parking expense. It is not, as we sometimes see in
the architects, costs plus ten percent, it’s basically at cost. The one thing that is
difficult is if you get into photocopies, and I cannot remember if our standard rate
is ten cents a page or – on those outside retainer things, if it’s a huge copy job
you send it out because they do it for a nickel a page. It would be the ordinary
stuff. Just to point out that there are times when you do need to have someone
other than the firm that you hire provides services. Those might be an
occasional conflict situation and I can’t recall that we have had one. There have
been some special expertise situations. The Sewer Pretreatment Ordinance was
prepared by Tom Dominick because he had some special expertise in that area
and so he was paid separately for that. Gary Smith and I talked today about a
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 16 of 30
water rights issue that I think Julie Fischer is competent to handle. Gary has a
situation where the city can partner with the City of Caldwell and Nampa Meridian
Irrigation District, the lawyer who is already familiar with the issue, so you aren’t
paying to bring someone up to speed, plus you are sharing the cost. Under
those kinds of circumstances, it makes sense to use outside Counsel instead of
using our firm to provide those services. I also wanted to talk about the interplay
between the retainer and outside services and how I see that as a benefit. In a
recent personnel investigation that you had, the personnel investigation itself was
outside the existing retainer. The meetings that Julie Fischer and I had, my work
was inside the retainer. Its not like – sometimes you get into litigation and these
sorts of things and you have conferences between lawyers and you know that
that is one thing you want to try to minimize to some extent. You don’t want to be
paying 250 dollars per hour for that conference or 375 dollars. You basically
want to reduce the expense. The meetings that I attended where Julie was
there, you are getting the bill for her time, but mine was contained inside the
retainer. That is how the interplay between the retainer and the outside
sometimes worked where you would essentially had two lawyers but you only
pay outside the retainer on one. Special items that I have included in the
proposal, our firm has concluded that we want to start a tracking sheet for
projects. We want to be able to track assignments so that we can try to make
sure everything gets done and done on time. It also raised the issue of a
customer with the mayor, Council, and department heads. I would also add the
Planning and Zoning Commission to that. I didn’t have that in my proposal but I
would add that in as well. With the whole idea that if we find out that there is an
issue before it becomes a huge issue, then we have much better chance of
addressing it. It is a gauge of how well we are doing. I have already mentioned
the mentoring issue. We would conclude that since 1998, we have provided
services to the City of Meridian and we believe we have done a good job of
providing those services. We think we know the city. We know the employees,
we know the officials. We have seen the recent challenges the city has faced.
We have some idea of the opportunities and challenges that lie ahead. We want
to be here to help you with those. We want to improve the quality of services we
have provided and hope you will give us the opportunity to do that. That
concludes my brief presentation. Now I stand for any questions you may have.
Bird: Yes, get two lawyers going here.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess I wanted to be clear Mr. Nichols, on the retainer amount, the
seventeen-five, that includes all the work with the different departments, there is
no additional or separated costs for the enterprise funds or those kinds of things,
that is the cost.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 17 of 30
Nichols: Yes.
Nary: On the mentoring. I guess one of the things I have had frustrations with,
not with your firm, I guess just lawyers in general, is getting bills that part of the
cost we are paying is the cost for them to put the bill together or to send two
people to the meeting. I think the mentoring you talk about is great, but you are
not talking about an additional cost to us to have another lawyer come to the
meeting?
Nichols: Councilman Nary, Mayor, Members of the Council, we would see that as
something contained in the retainer. In other words, if I asked Nick Wollen to be
here and watch some meetings, so that he has the ability to see partly what
happens with the recommendations that he has done, and partly to see how you
approach these land use things, and partly learn how you do these processes to
prepare him to take an occasional meeting. I would see that as something we
pay as part of his salary. It is not something you pay extra for. It is part of the
service that has been raised about coverage.
Nary: I had one other question Mr. Mayor. In looking at the break down that we
got from the Finance Department during the budget process, it appears when we
take out the criminal expense, from the prior contract and retainer, the – in the
last budget year was approximately, well it was 18,500 dollars, was the monthly
retainer for everything other than criminal. In what was proposed for the increase
put it up to 19,425 dollars. Where did the 2000 dollars per month go? What was
the reason for that?
Nichols: Just to give you some background, Mr. Mayor, Councilman Nary,
members of the Council, and I am trying to think that this may have been before
Stacy was hired. In the course of trying to get ready for the budget, and I know I
talked with Reta Cunningham, and the issue was ok, your monthly fee is, and I
think it was 39,000 dollars per month. How much of that is – how many lawyers
do you have, how much of that is criminal, how much is civil? I have to be
honest with you we never broke it out internally. As far as any kind of profit and
loss sheets or any internal accounting, we had no separate category for
Meridian. It was just kind of – there needs to be some kind of an allocation, so
what do you want to do? Staff said, well you have two lawyers on the
prosecution side and there is you and whoever you have coming to P & Z
meetings and it was an arbitrary number essentially. It was a number to try to
give some structure in the budget process. It wasn’t one we assigned and said
here is our criminal costs, in our criminal amount, here is our civil side and civil
amount. That is where it is.
Corrie: Bill, I have a question if you don’t have the office here in Meridian and
you win the contract, you are still coming to the city meetings and all that, staff
meetings and such, and that isn’t extra? That is still part of the retainer?
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 18 of 30
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, the city has not been billed for any of my mileage on
anything. Even going to the ACHD meetings in Boise. That has been absorbed
internally. That type of thing in costs, travel, mileage, the time spent in the car,
all of that is included. That is part of rendering the service, is getting over here
and being able to do it.
Nary: Mr. Mayor. I had one more question. Mr. Nichols, if the city felt perhaps it
was important to have some on site time, but the city was to provide the office
space, would that be a problem for your firm?
Nichols: Councilman Nary, Mayor, and Members of Council, I don’t think it would
be a problem.
Nary: I don’t know if we need it, I was just wondering in case that was something
we were going to do.
Nichols: the approach I have – I don’t know, maybe you had this experience in
college maybe you didn’t. You know how professors have posted hours. It never
seemed to fit your schedule? That kind of thing to me is sorely approached. I
don’t know how many times Anita has called me for meeting with the Mayor and
my first, almost always, my first question is, you tell me what the Mayor’s
schedule is first so I can try to – usually his calendar is more booked up than
mine. Part of that is because I purposely reserve time. I mean – maybe not from
the standpoint of telling my secretary don’t schedule anything between here and
here, but just in terms of the other kinds of things I have done in terms of my
practice. Meridian has been the primary focus. If we need to have a – it’s just
like Gary and I today, met in the Mayor’s conference room and I was down here
today to bring something to Will. We can always find someplace to visit if we
need to. I guess we can rent the police meeting room for 25 dollars.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Council Members)
Corrie: Any other questions of Council?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Yes Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess just one of clarity, when you are talking about findings. That
is only the findings at the P & Z level – we won’t have to be writing them at the
Council level right?
Nary: Well, we are certainly going to get more than 500 dollars per month if we
are going to do that.
De Weerd: Or Bill will.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 19 of 30
Nichols: Councilwoman De Weerd, what my goal is to create a process where it
is easy to do – well maybe that is not a good word but easier to do findings
basically by doing perhaps, helping them do more at the front end. One of the
criticisms I heard was all we are doing is retyping the staff report and the ACHD
report and these other things. Part of the reason for us doing that, in trying to put
them all in the findings, is so that there was one document with all of those things
instead of you know, per ACHD findings, because maybe ACHD changes their
mind later and maybe that has a big impact on your decision. We would try to
find some way of doing that, helping staff create something up front that you
could use all the way through. We are not expecting Council to draft those.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, I have a question. Mr. Nichols, in the prior agreement, with
your firm, your firm was the designated City Attorney. There was no particular
attorney designated in the agreement, as the primary. I noted in your proposal
that you are now proposed to be the primary attorney, which I think is just fine. Is
that going to be a problem for your firm to pre-designate that you are the primary
attorney and your members of the firm that you want to have work on projects,
show up at meetings, provide the other things, they are basically through you and
that you are the accountable person for it. If you are not there, they may not be
the people to be the City Attorney. Is that going to be a problem?
Nichols: Councilman Nary, Mayor, and Members of Council that is not a
problem. Part of what happened with the contract the way it was is that at the
time that I began attending meetings, I was an associate. I am now a
shareholder in the firm. It is a bit different. As an associate, maybe I didn’t have
the hootsba (sic) to say, oh by the way, I am putting my name in here as City
Attorney. You know, the firm has been very generous to me. They have given
great support and I am sure there is no problem at all with that approach.
De Weerd: So are they going to add your name on here?
Nichols: Councilwoman de Weerd, there is a point in time at which enough is
enough. I have been a named partner before, and my situation as a non-named
partner is better. I am perfectly willing to let it stay at seven.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: And you are the City Attorney if we – for Meridian, period. You would be
our contact through the firm.
Nichols: Councilman Bird, Mayor, Members of Council that is correct. What we
have done before when I have been gone is that I tried to at least Will know, look,
if something comes up, talk to Marlene. I haven’t talked about Marlene in our
presentation. She is excellent, she really is. I would have her here tonight
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 20 of 30
except she is getting back from her vacation. To where we have been able to I
think, you know if there is a real emergency, like that construction bidding
dispute, you have people on you – so it would be me, if I am not available, Terry,
you know, as far as a chain of – a telephone chain or whatever, try to get issues.
We try to make sure that if there is a department head or the mayor needs to talk
to a lawyer now, those people get to talk to a lawyer, regardless of where I am or
what I am doing.
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: And that is very true. One time I called, you weren’t available and the
next guy on the phone was Terry. I appreciate that Terry. Answers very quickly.
Thank you for the nice presentation. Thank you very much Bill. Why don’t we
take a ten minute break here and then when we can come back we‘ll have
possible discussions and deliberations.
(Recess at 7:22 P.M.)
(Reconvene at 7:34 P.M.)
Item 5. At 7:30 pm – Possible Discussion and Deliberation of
Presentation and Proposal for City Attorney / Civil Legal
Services:
Corrie: We come back from recess now, and the last item on the agenda is the
possible discussion and deliberation of presentation and proposals for City
Attorney and Civil Legal Services.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Regarding the civil, and first of all I would like to state that all five
presentations, criminal and civil, were first class. On the civil one, I don’t know
about the rest of you, but I had some questions on how well we would be
represented by the first applicant. Because of the time and the involvement, they
have in some other stuff one of the partners being located outside the city. On
the second one I see no reason that White Peterson would need an office in
Meridian. In fact, in north Meridian, you can probably get to their office at the
Idaho Center faster than you can get to south Meridian. I don’t see a problem
with that. I for one, in the civil legal services, have no problem with retaining the
services of White Peterson with the stipulation that Bill Nichols will be our lead
attorney.
Corrie: Okay.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 21 of 30
McCandless: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I am particularly worried about the presentation by David Bieter
and his organization because – for the same reasons Keith is. There is a lot more
hours in the Legislature than he indicated. I understand that there are many
lawyers down there that are able to keep their businesses going while they are in
the legislature but it is not as easy as he said it would be. Since there are only
two of them here in town, that would be there, that worries me. Quite frankly, I
would like to keep Bill as our City Attorney. That is my take on it.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Since Mr. Nary is being so gentlemanly over there. I
would agree with the other two Council members’ comments. White Peterson’s
proposal is more than Bieter Werth and Walker. I think they satisfactorily
answered the questions I have regarding the tag team approach that they would
have, but we have been very satisfied with Bill Nichols in his representation and
he has established an identity and a face for meridian and I think I have no
problem in justifying the increase or the amount of extra we would be paying. In
particular I liked some of his references in the proposal to our strategic plan and
how their firm can assess us in moving forward. In particular, I did like the idea of
a tracking sheet for projects. White Peterson did bring some new ideas and
approaches to the table to further strengthen the representation and service that
they give to Meridian. Which is very appreciated and of course, because
accounting figured it wrong, we are saving some money too – so I always like
that idea. There is my two cents worth.
Bird: That was a dime.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess my only comment for the record, I think the same as Mr. Bird. I
appreciate all the applicants and proposals that were presented. I guess in my
opinion the proposal by both White Peterson and Bieter Werth and Walker, are
really the same. Bieter Werth and Walker are going to essentially staff this
contract with primarily two experienced attorneys. White Peterson is going to
staff this contract with Mr. Nichols as well as mentoring some other folks to be
able to fill in the gaps when necessary as well as they have a larger firm to pick
up some slack on other things. Although I think the depth of experience that Mr.
Bieter and Mr. Walker have are really the equivalent of what we are getting from
either firm. I don’t see much difference really. Stylistically how they are serving
the contract has some differences but it has really primarily the same. Having
one or two people – not having, having primarily Mr. Walker on a majority of
things and having Mr. Bieter on others I think is fine. I don’t think you would see
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 22 of 30
the difference. The difference in the costs is about twenty percent. That is not a
huge difference between the two and again I agree with Councilwoman de
Weerd that I can comfortably justify that difference. I have always said all along
that there is a value to institutional knowledge. There is a value to the experience
that we have received. That value is about twenty percent. I don’t have big
problem with that. I think we have received excellent service from Mr. Nichols
and I don’t anticipate that is going to change. I do appreciate what White
Peterson has put together in this proposal and what they are wanting to do in
providing a broader base service, a better service and I guess my main question
that was answered to my satisfaction was, if we contract with White Peterson,
our primary attorney is Mr. Nichols. Now if Mr. Nichols decides tomorrow to retire
because he wins the lottery, we may rethink having White Peterson and revisit
the issue and talk about it some more and that is all I mean. We wanted to talk
about, because that is where our comfort level is and I think we have received
excellent service. Like I said, I think there is a value to the expertise that Mr.
Nichols brings to the table that any other firm certainly has to overcome. And the
twenty percent difference I think is a reasonable difference for that type of thing.
I also don’t have a problem with retaining White Peterson based on this proposal
with those conditions.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I am going to say one thing, on all this, RFP’s, the thing that disappointed
me and we had a couple of firms that were large enough to do it, why we did not
the same firm to bid on both proposals. I would like to know why this did not
happen. I don’t know, but I can also see where criminal and civil could overlap at
times, and to me, having it under the same umbrella would be smart. I am not a
lawyer, so I don’t know if they will overlap but just thinking common horse sense,
I would think they would, you would have some overlapping. Where you have
two firms doing this – you know, I am just disappointed that we didn’t have some
firms come for both of them.
Nary: I would echo that sentiment as well. One thing I guess to keep in mind in
this process, Council, is technically, this is an eleven month agreement because
we – the current contract ends at he end of October, so we really have an eleven
month agreement with whatever firms are chosen for both criminal and civil. We
have an opportunity to revisit during the budget process on retaining the same
groups, whether we want to go through this process again. We certainly have the
option to do that. We certainly have the ability to do that. We can go back and
look and see whether there are available firms that want to do both of these
contracts. We have a lot of options open to us. We certainly are only locked into
whatever decision we make for the remainder of this fiscal year and there is
nothing beyond that. There is always the opportunity to go back and revisit that
issue Mr. Bird. I would agree. It would have been nice to see that in the mix.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 23 of 30
Bird: I am disappointed and I just wondered why.
Nary: People make business decisions all the time and that is okay. I don’t think
we are locked in forever – its something we always have the opportunity to
revisit.
Bird: Now your opinion.
Corrie: It would be anticlimactic at this point.
Bird: Well, you can go first next time.
Corrie: As the old TV – as the stomach turns – is that the program? What I
would add would be anticlimactic at this point. I do agree that they are both
excellent firms and did well on their presentations. The only thing I would add to it
is if you are awarded that, Bill, you are not going to be allowed to take any kind of
gamble on the lottery. Let that stand for the record.
De Weerd: And we won’t accept any excuse about a gall bladder again.
Corrie: I have that gall bladder in a jar, just in case.
Nary: You only get to play that card once.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: With that, I would make a motion that we accept the proposal from White
Peterson Morrow Gigray Rossman Nye and Rossman P.A., with the stipulation
that attorney Bill Nichols will be the attorney of record for the City of Meridian for
that firm, and award them the basic year contract – eleven month contract rather.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Roll call
vote please.
Roll Call Vote: Bird, aye; McCandless, aye; De Weerd, aye; Nary, aye
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Okay, the contract will be awarded to White Peterson Morrow, Gigray,
Rossman, Nye and Rossman, P.A.
Bird: And Nichols.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 24 of 30
Corrie: And Nichols. Thank you.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: One thing Council did consider in this process, and Mr. Berg is the one
that reminded me about this and this is something we to finalize before the end of
this month, is a contract. I think we have all expressed some concern in having
our own lawyers write up their own contract. We need to figure out how we want
to accomplish that. In getting a contract drawn up, what provisions – how do you
want that done? Getting that done, renewal clause, time frame and all those
types of things. My assumption that it is for the remainder of the budget year.
And how else you want the contract prepared to brought back by no later than
th
October 29 if not before that.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: My suggestion would be, and I have talked to Mr. Nary on this, that I don’t
think its proper or looks proper to tax payers to have a firm that you have hired
write up a contract. Especially when you have people up here that are not
lawyers. Not counting this Council. I think we need to hire an outside firm to
write up that contract. Or we could trade off and have White Peterson write the
criminal and the criminal choice write the civil contract. I don’t see anything with –
I would have no problem going out with that – the mayor and Bill, you could look
it over and give the attorney what we felt. Bill Nichols could look it over and sign
it. I am like you, we have to have it done.
Corrie: Mr. Bird, I was conferring with Bill that we are talking a 1000 dollars or
less, why don’t we just –
Nary: I would think – I haven’t ever paid for that so I don’t know.
Corrie: -- there is not a whole lot (inaudible) we can just look at it and maybe we
should just agree on a law firm having to draw it up and have them do that bring
it to us. For the small cost of being in that circumstance –
Bird: We have one right next door.
Item 6. Tabled from September 30th, 2002 Meeting – Possible
Discussion and Deliberation of Presentation and Proposal for
City Prosecutor / Criminal Legal Services:
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 25 of 30
Corrie: I will handle that tomorrow. I guess we have the other one, the criminal.
Do we want to discuss that tonight?
Bird: You bet. I do.
Corrie: We have three proposals here on that. Garden City, the City of Boise,
and Foley Freeman, Borton and Stern Chartered.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: This has probably been the hardest one to consider because of the
vast differences in the proposals, as far as the fees involved. Maybe the goal of
the city in maintaining a Meridian identity and that sort of thing. It comes where –
it becomes difficult for a private industry to compete with a governmental agency.
The fine line that that holds. We have a firm that is right next-door and it is again,
I mentioned with White Peterson, that Bill Nichols has given the face of Meridian.
I think Foley Freeman Borton and Stern have been exactly that as well. They
have been the face of Meridian. However, it is very difficult to justify almost
double the difference – the difference is almost double what the fee from the City
of Boise is versus our Foley and Freeman. That makes it very difficult for me to
be able to answer to the taxpayers why we could choose that kind of difference.
It has been a huge conflict for me, but I think we do have to honor, answer to our
taxpayers and it looks like the City of Boise can provide good service. They had
some very good things in their proposal. However much I would like to keep with
a Meridian firm and a private firm, the difference in the proposals cannot be
justified.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird:
Bird: Let me make my two cents worth. I have a real hard time with public people
bidding against private. There is no way shape or form – and I could list you
probably a hundred reasons why the private firm cannot compete because he is
paying for the public firm to compete against him. If I was a taxpayer at Boise or
Garden City, I would be very upset if my taxpayer dollars were going to subsidize
Meridian in a bid. I don’t believe that the public can be half what private is. In
the same token, I am like Tammy. When you have that kind of difference, and
we know that Boise
***End of Side Two***
Bird: -- than the private firm would do, but they will do Meridian a top-notch job. I
just have a real problem being in a private business world myself. I know that if
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 26 of 30
the City of Meridian had a contract glazing firm, there would be no way I could
get jobs. I just really – I think that when they go to what they consider costs, they
don’t have overhead included in that. I don’t know how we can compare the
proposals apples to apples. They are oranges to apples. The private firm has to
pay taxes, sales tax, on their profits has to pay taxes. The public firm has none
of that, absolutely none of that. They have no cost of equipment or anything else.
That is all a budgetary item that the taxes pay. That is not even figured in their
costs. That is something that every three years they get new ones. For our
taxpayers, it is hard to justify paying double. I wish we didn’t. I am like Tammy I
wish they were within what the civil one was. I would have no problem justifying
that to the taxpayers. That is my take, my feelings. I know that Boise or Garden
will give us a good return on our dollars, but not any better than that private firm
would.
Corrie: Mr. Nary I guess you are out of this. Cherie? Anything you would like to
say? You don’t have to say anything but just vote – but I am not going to get to
vote probably I don’t think it will be a tie but I might have a few words.
McCandless: I know. Listening to Keith and Tammy, I frankly would much rather
keep it in Meridian. The cost does bother me. Boise is even lower than Garden
City as far as that goes. I am sitting here and I don’t know what I am going to say
yet because I really prefer the private firm doing this for us. I know Boise could
do a very good job. I don’t know if I am willing to vote on this tonight or not.
Bird: The figures are not going to change.
McCandless: I know they are not. It is a heck of a lot more money.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I do just want to put on the record, since this is a different tape than the
other night, that I was going to excuse myself from voting or participating in
deliberation on this one since my office is one of the proposers. Again, it is an 11-
month agreement.
Corrie: Thank you. I might as well say something because I know Mr. Bird is
going to goad me on this side to do it anyway and I want to say something. I do
have to agree with Tammy even though I don’t want to a lot of times – I have –
De Weerd: Thanks for the (inaudible)
Nary: Would you make a note on the record of that please.
Bird: Lets get that on tape.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 27 of 30
Corrie: Well there are times we do not agree, and then when all the voting is
done, we all agree and go home. And I have to agree with Mr. Bird. This is a
very difficult thing for private and public to make bids against each other due to
the very fact that costs are different. I feel that – I am really good friends with all
the people that – Foley Freeman Borton and Stern. I would love to have them
have – I think they are excellent people. I can remember about six or seven
years ago and I got blind-sided and I didn’t like it. This year it is difficult for me to
say this, but I would like to say this, I would like to see Foley Freeman have it but
I cannot justify that like Tammy, to the public, where its half the cost of this, and
the same service. I think we get excellent service from all of them there is no
question about that. I do understand that it is very difficult for private to compete
there. If I was making the decision, which I am not going to do tonight, because
there will be three and it is not a tie and I won’t be breaking anything. I just
wanted everyone to understand that I feel the same way. Also, realize that we
are stewards of the people’s money and it could be very very disastrous if you
pay twice for something and get the same coverage. Maybe a little different, but
they are all three great. I do feel however it is between Boise and Foley Freeman
group in this part of it. I have an idea how it will turn out but I certainly want to
stay friends because I really do feel it is hard to compete there. There is a reason
for it and they do us a wonderful job too.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. I could abstain.
Corrie: You could but you are not going to, you have no reason to –
McCandless: You better not.
De Weerd: I just thought I would offer.
Corrie: -- it would bring chills down my back of six years ago. Mark knows what I
am talking about so is there any other discussion? With that, does the Council
wish to vote tonight on the criminal?
Bird: There is no reason to delay it in my book.
Corrie: I will now entertain a motion then for the legal services contract for the
criminal RFP.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I Move that we grant the contract for services for criminal and
prosecution to Boise City for the 1000 dollars – oh I have really made it a huge
difference – for 152,000 dollars per year flat fee for services. To include the
additional services of the witness and victim services as well as the JAIBG and to
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 28 of 30
ask that the Mayor have an independent firm draw up the contract to retain the
city of Boise for a period to end through our budget year.
Bird: Mr. Mayor. On that, before a second, are you turning over the 11,000
dollars to them?
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: So in other words the contract is 163,000 dollars.
De Weerd: I would not really like to include it in that because it is not really
money we get – it is from I understand it, from the Association of Idaho Cities, but
that we would just let that be dedicated towards them. It is not money that is
even budgeted.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Council Members)
Bird: I know that but it is given to the City of Meridian and we just turn it over to
Ada County.
Corrie: It is not given to us unless we have something to do with it. We haven’t
got any way tot do it so its either, in this case, you can turn it over, the Federal
dollars to them, or we don’t get it and no one else does. Someone might as well
get it, that is why Ada County was helping us with our (inaudible).
De Weerd: Did you second?
Bird: Did I second? I will second that.
Corrie: Okay, motion has been made and second to have the office of the City of
Boise Attorneys do the criminal legal services for the City of Meridian. Did you
approve to turn that over? Then to allow –
De Weerd: Yes.
Corrie: And then to allow the JAIBG dollars, 11, 708 dollars go to the City of
Boise.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: This is not part of the discussion but the 152,000 dollars is actually for 12
months, you might want to make it for the 12, 670 dollars for 11 months because
that is – would have included the month of October.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 29 of 30
De Weerd: Okay, I would like to correct my motion to state by a monthly fee of
12,670 dollars.
Bird: Second agrees.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I am very reluctantly going to vote for that motion because of the
money and of the money only.
Bird: That is all we are doing.
De Weerd: I think we all concur with that. No offense Mr. Nary.
Nary: No, okay – I am not participating in that discussion.
Corrie: Roll call vote please Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call Vote: Bird, aye; McCandless, aye; De Weerd, aye; Nary, abstained.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSTAINED
Corrie: Then the award will be to the Boise City Attorney’s Office.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Just two things, and I guess I wasn’t sure what firm you had in mind – I
guess it would be my preference if Foley Freeman Borton and Stern are willing,
to contract with them to write both of these contracts for us, if that is okay with
you Mr. Mayor. I think this would be beneficial to the city – is that okay? Then
secondarily I think, Council, these are 11-month agreements. I think what we
need to keep on the forefront for ourselves as well as our Finance Department,
as we work through the budget year next late spring and summer, that we
consider whether or not we want to do this process again or a modification of this
process. You know, now that the vote is done, discussion – my perspective is
that the City of Boise is cheap until we want to do something different. We can
do something different next spring and it is not going to be a big problem. It is
something we can keep in mind as we deal with the spring and the summer and
dealing with the budget and we can come back with this again, both civil and
criminally and address it again.
Meridian City Council Special Meeting
October 2, 2002
Page 30 of 30
Bird: I would concur with that Mr. Mayor, that if you so desire, that Foley and
Freeman could draw both of those up.
Corrie: I have no objections whatsoever. Fact is I was going to ask Mr. Freeman
tonight if he was interested in doing that. I will confer with you tomorrow Mark.
With that –
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we adjourn.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and second. All in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:55 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK