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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 09-10 Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 The regular meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 8:10 P.M. on Tuesday, September 10, 2002, by Mayor Robert D. Corrie. Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Cherie McCandless and William Nary. Others Present: Bill Nichols, Jim Worley, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Gary Smith, Brad Watson, Ken Bowers, Dean Willis and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird X Mayor Robert Corrie Corrie: At this time I will open the Regular Meeting Agenda on Tuesday, September th 10, at -- actually, it's 8:10 P.M. and we will have roll call vote, please – roll call attendance. Excuse me. Mr. Berg. Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda: Corrie: Item Number 2 is the adoption of the agenda. Council, is there any additions or corrections to the agenda as written? De Weerd: I have none. Mr. Mayor, I move we adopt the agenda as presented. Nary: Second. Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 3: Consent Agenda: A. August 13, 2002 Approve minutes from City Council Regular Workshop: B. Memorandum of Understanding with Meridian Police Department, Garden City Police Department and Nampa Police Department: C. Five Mile Sewer Trunk Extension Latecomer Agreement – Sundance Development Company (Silverstone): Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 2 of 27 Corrie: On the Consent Agenda, do we have any items that need to be pulled or added to the Consent Agenda? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move we approve the Consent Agenda. Bird: Second. Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to approve the Consent Agenda. Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: Okay. All ayes. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 4: Department Reports: Corrie: Item 4, Department Reports. Are there any department reports? Hearing none. Item 5: (Items Moved from Consent Agenda) Corrie: Item 5 is items moved from the Consent Agenda. There are none. Item 6: Resolution No. : Rescinding Resolution No. 02-383 Pertaining to the Property Exchange Agreement with Farmers & Merchants State Bank: Corrie: Item Number 6 is a resolution. Mr. Clerk, that's 02 dash what? 388. Okay. This is Resolution Number 02-388. Rescinding Resolution Number 02-383 pertaining to the Property Exchange Agreement with the Farmers and Merchants State Bank. Council, discussion? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Any discussion? Okay. This is in the reference for the public to understand that we had a resolution pertaining to the Property Exchange Agreement with Farmers and Merchants State Bank. We found an error in that, so we must take the resolution to rescind the original resolution and we will have a new one coming up in Item Number 7. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 3 of 27 Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I guess I did have one question. Did we get some specific notice to the Farmers and Merchants so they knew we were rescinding this action tonight? Okay. I thought we had. I just wasn't sure. Corrie: Okay. Any further discussion? Okay. I'll entertain a motion on Resolution Number 02-388. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move that we rescind Resolution 02-388, the agreement -- we rescind -- approve Resolution 02-388 rescinding Resolution 02-383 pertaining to the Property Exchange Agreement with Farmers and Merchants State Bank. McCandless: Second. Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: All ayes. Motion to rescind the resolution is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 7: Resolution No. : Approving New Property Exchange Agreement with Farmers & Merchants State Bank: Corrie: Item Number 7 is a resolution, Number 02 dash -- Nary: Mr. Mayor, I don't know whether or not we need to put a resolution number on this. I was going to move that we table this item for -- a month? Is that too long? Three th weeks? Two weeks. Two weeks to our September 24 meeting, in the interim for you, Mr. Mayor, and our Counsel Mr. Nichols to meet with the bank and discuss the values of these properties to make sure we are receiving equal values and an appraisal, if necessary, and negotiate that issue with the bank. I think that would solve the concerns on the value and how we get there. Bird: I would second that motion. Corrie: Okay. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 4 of 27 MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 8: Continued Public Hearing from August 6, 2002: Proposed Comprehensive Parks and Recreation System and Action Plan: th Corrie: Thank you. Item Number 8 is a Continued Public Hearing from August the 6, proposed Comprehensive Parks and Recreation System and Action Plan. Mr. Bird. Bird: Mr. Mayor, we are still waiting for some finalization and some passage of some impact fees. I suppose we could go ahead with the Comprehensive Parks and Recreation Action Plan without the fees. We will probably have to have a Public Hearing for the fees, am I not right, or -- maybe we should pass the fee Public Hearing first before we do the Action Plan. I don't know. I'd like legal counsel's advice on what we should do on that. Corrie: Mr. Nichols. Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I think it appropriate that you have the Parks Department prepared to make a presentation on the proposed action plan at the hearing. There are elements of the plan that are related to the factors that go into the revised park impact fees that the Parks Department has been working on, so this is really the first step that we really do have to do that, but it's kind of which is the chicken and which is the egg and probably best to table this -- or, excuse me, continue it. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: With that I move that we continue the Public Hearing for the Comprehensive Parks and Recreation System and Action Plan to September 24, 2002. De Weerd: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 9: TE 02-004 Request for a Time Extension on the final plat approval of Bear Creek Subdivision No. 4 by Briggs Engineering –east of South Stoddard Road and north of West Victory Road: Corrie: Number 9 is a request for Time Extension on the Final Plat approval of Bear Creek Subdivision No. 4 by Briggs Engineering, east of South Stoddard Road and north of West Victory Road. Staff, reason for the request. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 5 of 27 Hawkins-Clark: Mayor, Members of the Council, the developer's representative Briggs Engineering did submit for signature to the City Engineer on the Final Plat, that at the review of that it was found that the time to record it was expired by about a week. Signature is more or less ready. They only need a couple of months. They just had some unexpected delays with some of the other agencies that had to sign the Final Plat for this phase. We are recommending six months and the applicant did say to me that that was more than adequate. They did not need a year. Corrie: Okay. Is the applicant here tonight? Okay. That's okay. Council, questions? Bird: I have none, Mayor. Corrie: Okay. Anyone else? Nary: No. Corrie: I will entertain a motion, then, for the extension of time with the staff comments. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. stst Nary: Brad, when you say six months, do you mean so then to March 1? April 1? st Hawkins-Clark: March 1. Nary: March 1st? Okay. Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I move that we approve TE 02-004, request for Time Extension of the Final Plat approval of Bear Creek Subdivision No. 4 by Briggs Engineering, to be completed by March 1, 2003. De Weerd: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to extend the Time Extension on the Final Plat approval of Bear Creek Subdivision No. 4 until March 1, 2003. Nary: I didn't do findings. I don't know whether we need findings or anything. Just need an order. Okay. I'm sorry so that we would have an order prepared granting that. Corrie: Okay. De Weerd: Second concurs. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 6 of 27 Corrie: Okay. Any further discussion? Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 10: Public Hearing: AZ 02-013 Request for annexation and zoning of 40.48 Meridian Middle School acres from RUT to R-4 zones for a for Joint School District No. 2 by Lombard Conrad Architects – east side of North Linder Road, north of West Ustick Road: Corrie: Item Number 10 is a Public Hearing. This is a request for annexation and zoning of 40.48 acres from RUT to R-4 zones for a Meridian Middle School for Joint School District No. 2 by Lombard Conrad Architects, east side of North Linder Road and north of West Ustick Road. At this time we will open the Public Hearing and we will have staff comments first, then we will have the developer's comments, then we will have anybody from the audience to give public testimony and then if there is any recourse that the developer has or the applicant has, then they have time after that. With that we will open the staff comments first. Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. The application was submitted to the city by Lombard Conrad Architects on behalf of the Joint School District No. 2. The property is just approximately 40 and a half acres. It's this crosshatched property on the screen, approximately at the half-mile point between McMillan Road and Ustick Road. It is on the east side of the North Linder. The Baldwin Park Subdivision abuts the property here to the north. All other properties surrounding the school's property are Ada County, they are not city, so it is completely surrounded by rural residential and/or some kind of ag. The current zone is Rural Urban Transition. They are proposing an R-4, which is pretty standard for the -- for all schools, all public schools. The site photos -- a couple of site photos here. The White Trunk Project does abut the north boundary of the school. The Planning and Zoning Commission did review and make a recommendation to you. They are recommending approval of the annexation. I believe the recommendation that you have in your packets is correct, with the exception of -- the motion was made by Commissioner Jerry Centers and he did make, in addition to his motion, suggest that it be a traditional public school only. I believe that that was missed and he made some reference earlier, which was not in his motion, to the alternative school on Pine Street that was denied approximately about a year ago. He wanted to have that language in there. Otherwise, I think the recommendation before you is correct. The name on the application is Meridian Middle School and just for clarification, staff has recommended that it be Linder Road Middle School, just for the processing, to avoid confusion with our files and for the public and things like that, until the School District, of course, comes up with a name. So that's all we have. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 7 of 27 Corrie: All right. Thanks, Brad. Any other comments, questions from Council? Bird: I have none, Mayor. Corrie: Okay. Who wants to go? Wendell? Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Bigham: Yes. Corrie: Name and address, please, for the record. Bigham: Wendell Bigham, supervisor of facilities and construction for Joint School District No. 2, 911 Meridian Street, Meridian, Idaho. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Mayor and Councilmen, at this time, really, we stand for questions. We take no exceptions to the staff recommendations that you have before you, so with that I would stand for questions that you may have at this time. Corrie: Okay. Bird: I have none. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Bigham, I was just curious on the issue brought up by Commissioner Centers about the traditional school, alternative school, whatever. What are your thoughts about that? Bigham: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Nary, I'm not sure exactly what it is getting at. I think the impetus behind it was that this school not include those programs that were determined to be -- that we were considering for the Pine Street house, started a deliberative effort by the Planning and Zoning Commission that determined what a school -- or traditional school was. I don't know that this is the forum to take exception to it, but at this juncture having that comment on the record does not present a problem to us. Nary: Thank you. Corrie: Any other questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Thank you. Is there anyone from the public that would like to issue testimony at this time? Okay. Seeing none, staff -- or, excuse me, Council, do you have any Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 8 of 27 questions for the public record? Okay. Hearing none, then I'll entertain a motion to close the Public Hearing on Item Number 10, the Meridian Middle School. McCandless: Mr. Mayor, so moved. Nary: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to close the Public Hearing on Item Number 10, request AZ 02-013, annexation, and zoning for Meridian Middle School. Any further discussion? All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Corrie: Discussion? If you haven't any, then we will entertain a motion. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I'd move the approval of AZ 02-013, request for annexation and zoning of 40.48 acres from RUT to an R-4 zone with the only following amendment that it be referred to at least until it's named as Linder Road Middle School for the Joint School District No. 2 by Lombard Conrad Architects, pursuant to -- or that counsel prepare Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order pursuant to the recommendation of staff before from Planning and Zoning. I don't see a need to include a comment as to a traditional school. That whole issue regarding the Pine Street School I was heavily involved with and it has nothing to do with what this school is there for. This is not an issue for that. I don't think we need anything regarding the traditional versus alternative school to be a part of the Findings. All the other recommendations as such are fine, but -- Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. De Weerd: Was that all part of your motion? Nary: All part of my motion. Bird: I was waiting. Corrie: And the stenographer got it all. Okay. Mr. Berg, roll call vote, please. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 9 of 27 MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 11: Public Hearing: AZ 02-014 Request for annexation and zoning of 4.39 Treasure Valley Baptist Church acres from R-2 to L-O zones for by Treasure Valley Baptist Church – 1300 South Teare Avenue: Corrie: Item Number 11 is a Public Hearing. This is a request for annexation and zoning of 4.39 acres from R-2 to L-O zone for Treasure Valley Baptist Church by Treasure Valley Baptist Church, 1300 South Teare Avenue. At this time I will open the Public Hearing and same rules apply to this Public Hearing. Staff first. Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. The property is shown on the screen at this time. Sportsman's Pointe Subdivision is on the south side of Overland Road directly across from the property. It is in an area that the L-O zone is permitted according to the Comprehensive Plan. Staff had reviewed the adjacent uses and the permitted uses that would be allowed in that L-O. The L-O zone is the same zone as the church property currently. It does have the C-G Commercial General Zone adjacent on two sides. Teare Avenue is here, which would serve the property on the west side. At this point the city has not received any development applications. The church is simply asking for the annexation into the city limits. It is currently county. Planning and Zoning Commission has recommended approval. The only item that -- and maybe Mr. Nichols could comment on that -- on page two of the recommendation we have included Ada County Highway District conditions. However, the Highway District specifically stated in their approval that those conditions only apply upon future developments, so those conditions don't necessarily -- are not necessarily linked to the annexation ordinance per se. We are recommending, you know, just adding onto the bottom of that second page -- adopt the recommendation of the ACHD upon future development as follows or something like that. Otherwise, I think the recommendation as submitted to you in your packets is correct so that's all I have. Corrie: Thank you. Any questions of staff? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening? Aldridge: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Bob Aldridge -- Corrie: Bob, if you -- is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Aldridge: It is. I am an attorney, though. This does really represent just bringing in the newest property we purchased -- the last we can purchase into the city. There is a small house existing on the premises, which we are using primarily for missionaries home from the field and that kind of stuff and we would like to hitch that up to the sewer and to the water that we have already brought down there and we can't really do that -- Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 10 of 27 or at least not with any reasonable price without being inside the city limits. In the long run this will be used for now the same way as the adjacent to the east parcel, which is recreational. We have already plowed up and put in some pressurized irrigation so we can play baseball and football on it and use it for picnics and whatever, that sort of a thing. We have already completed our sale of the frontage on Overland to the Highway District. They have purchased not only the 48-foot back portion, but also a 30-foot slope easement. That's already done and the deeds recorded, so that part of it is completed. We have no objection to any of the conditions. Corrie: Council, any questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to issue testimony? Okay. Hearing none, Council, any other things you'd like to add on the Public Hearing? I'll entertain a motion, then, to close the Public Hearing on Item Number 11, Treasure Valley Baptist Church. De Weerd: So moved. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to close the Public Hearing. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Corrie: Any discussion on the request for annexation and zoning? De Weerd: I have none. Bird: I have none. Corrie: Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion, then, for the request. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move we approve request for annexation and zoning of 4.39 acres from R- 2 to L-O zones for Treasure Valley Baptist Church and ask the attorney to draw up Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision of Order and to include all staff comments. Bird: Second. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 11 of 27 Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made to approve the request for annexation of the Treasure Valley Church -- Baptist Church, excuse me, with all staff comments and for the attorney to draw up the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law. Any further discussion? Okay. Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: All ayes. Motion to approve approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 12: Public Hearing: CUP 02-018 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a Sonic Drive In 1,406 square foot restaurant with a drive-thru in a C-G zone in an existing shopping center by Boise Food Service, Inc. – 2150 East Fairview Avenue: Corrie: Item Number 12 is a Public Hearing. This is a request for a Conditional Use Permit for a 1,406 square foot Sonic Drive-in restaurant with a drive-thru in a C-G zone in an existing shopping center by Boise Food Service, Inc., 2150 East Fairview Avenue. At this time I will open the Public Hearing and the same rules and invite staff comments first. Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. The project before you is the existing Norco site. It came through approximately two and a half years ago as a Planned Development. They at that point got approval to add multiple buildings on a single parcel and that was approved. They constructed two buildings at that point. The project is outlined here on the screen. The Dove Meadows Subdivision is adjacent to the north, with commercial properties more or less surrounding it on the east and west and across Fairview. This is the pad that the applicant Sonic is proposing to construct on. It is here at the southeast corner of the site and there is an existing -- you can see a portion of it here, an existing landscape buffer on Fairview Avenue. It was constructed when this multi-tenant building was done in the north. It was built two years ago. This is the site layout for the whole parcel. Again, here is the proposed Sonic pad down here in the southeast. The access roads or entry points off of Fairview are not changing. It remains as it is today. There is two access points into the site off of Fairview. The existing parking is here, so their scope of work would more or less be around this area and they do have -- they do have a proposal -- I think we have a blowup here. Yes. Here is a little bit more detail. They have angled parking. This is the kind of operation where customers come and park and the waiters, waitresses come out I believe on roller skates or roller blades or something and come to the window and serve them at their cars. They have that opposition, as well as a drive-thru is another option. The drive-thru -- the main order board is located here on the north side of the building, so it does cast some sort of sound to the north. I believe you have a letter in the public record from a property owner that has raised some comments about the noise and the hours of operation. They are proposing some new landscaping as shown here on the plan. Outdoor seating is here on the south, with the parking on both sides. Here are Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 12 of 27 the proposed elevations of the building. The elevation facing Fairview is going to be this one here up on the upper left and they do have some proposed signage, which would go into the existing signage stand that's already there. In terms of the Planning and Zoning Commission's recommendation, I believe the only two items that they added to the staff comments were hours of operation should not extend past 11:00 P.M., so they did approve it with that -- with that end time frame. Then they also added due to the concerns of some of the neighbors in Dove Meadows, a condition that there be a little bit more screening here up in this northeast corner of the site next to Norco to provide some additional landscaping, evergreen trees that would provide some buffer. Those were the only two additional conditions that were added. Otherwise, we just recommend approval with staff comments. Corrie: All right. Thank you, Brad. Questions for staff? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening? Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Hofferber: Yes, I do. Corrie: Name and address, please. Hofferber: I'm Skip Hofferber of Boise Food Service, P.O. Box 8986, Boise. 83707 is the zip code. We are in agreement with the findings and recommendations of the Planning and Zoning and the staff and we have no problem with their findings and the additions that they made. Corrie: Thank you. Any questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Do we have anybody else on testimony for this and then there is -- you can come up, David. Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Wolfe: Yes. Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please. Wolfe: My name is David Wolfe. I'm at 239 East Grapewood. Should be on the -- basically the north side in Dove Meadows. Kind of up in that V on the side of the Norco building. There are a couple things -- as a general rule, I'm definitely not against any kind of development. I'm not here because of that but I'm concerned about this kind of operation. The shopping center itself and Norco really do not present any kind of problems. Their hours of operation are fairly normal. They don't present any real traffic Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 13 of 27 problems. They operate under the normal -- typical normal business hours. If you go and you look at the Sonic Restaurant, not only do the people have access to the driveway that goes where these -- I guess the overhangs will be where people can park and get served food. They also have access to that driveway to the west of that and they can go up towards the building and one of my reasons -- yes. Right up in there. One of my reasons in pointing it out is because the clearance that I was told earlier between a business facility and residential is about -- about 25 feet or something like that. I guess I was told there is about 150 feet distance from their building now, not from the drive areas, and this place is going to be open until 11:00, it's going to have a drive-thru, as well as drive-in. I understand that there have been no sound studies, so I'm not sure how they take orders from the people in the drive-in part. I know the drive- thru, if it's typical to the drive-ins -- or drive-thrus that I have seen, they have got a speaker system and they are going to take your order and people are going to be -- and it's going to be a -- it's going to draw teenagers there. I think that there will be music playing there at night and it just feels very inconsistent with the other kind of development that you have allowed and authorized and I don't have much of a problem with. I was told that there has been no sound study done or orders on it at all and so that's really primarily the thing. I think, you know, when you combine drive-in activity with drive-thru activity, it's going to be a high traffic area. Frankly, it's not going to affect tons of homeowners. I guess that puts me at a disadvantage in the fact that there are two of us, primarily, that would be -- where the headlights literally would be going in the directions of our homes. I don't think that the trees or whatever they are talking about putting back there -- it hadn't been discussed as trees -- I don't think it's going to mitigate the sound and the lights and the traffic noise from something like this sufficiently. As a general rule, I don't think anybody that I'm aware of has had any problems with the other kinds of developments. There have been comments made -- I think -- I didn't get a responding endorsement of this project, but, as you can see, we didn't get many of the neighbors here either. That's just primarily my concern with the amount of traffic that would be going through there and you're going to get what I believe would be -- and I have nothing against teenagers. I notice the facility that they have in Boise, though the property itself is quite a bit larger. When I drive around Boise and out here and I look at a lot of fast food facilities, I find very few that would be in this close proximity to actual residential things with people's headlights beaming into residences and stuff like that. I would ask, I guess, that if the Council cannot see its way to stop or have them revise it some way where it's a little bit more residential friendly, that we could consider having them build an eight foot wall. I -- you know, all the people in Crossroads seem to be able to have had that done all along the back and I realize those are big players, big stores, and big companies that have done that. I don't ask -- it's hard for me, because I know how difficult it is for small businesses and small developers to be able to justify those kinds of expenses, but this facility just doesn't feel like the way it's designed and laid out that it fits very well in there for any of our homeowners. I can guarantee you that it will make it very hard for me to sell my home to somebody with the facility that's operating at these kinds of hours and having that kind of traffic coming through. I guess that's -- I don't have a solution, I don't pretend to have it, but I am very concerned about its impact on my living situation. Thank you for listening. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 14 of 27 Corrie: We have some questions. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Wolfe, where do you live? Right here? Wolfe: Yes. Yes. Nary: So is there a fence currently there? Wolfe: There is just a wooden fence that I have that -- there is a -- you know, that we have put there, a six foot fence, a standard -- Nary: And then it looks like the recommendations are to put three trees? Wolfe: Well, they haven't been exactly described as trees, they were -- Nary: We have them as trees. Wolfe: Okay. All right. Nary: It says three evergreen trees at least six foot in height in this location right here. Wolfe: That would be my understanding of it. Nary: Now is your concern the headlights from cars driving in this parking lot? Wolfe: Sure. They can go -- I mean they can drive -- see where you have got your light? They can go straight from there, the drive continues around the front of Norco, so I mean there is nothing to restrict them to just going through the drive-thru. They have total access, so if somebody, when they leave -- when they leave there they can head right towards the Norco building use that driveway going out that way. Nary: I guess the -- Wolfe: It just brings them in closer proximity to the property. Nary: They can do that now; right? There is no -- Wolfe: This is true, but you don't have near the traffic. Nary: Right. I understand. I'm just asking. Wolfe: I understand. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 15 of 27 Nary: But right now -- Wolfe: Sure. That's correct. Nary: How far, approximately, is it from here to -- Wolfe: I was told it's about 150 feet by that gentleman over there. Nary: How far do headlights travel from -- people coming through the drive-thru and going around? Wolfe: Well -- okay. All right. Nary: So right here car headlights, how far are they going to travel to this building and this fence and these trees? It doesn't seem like it would travel 125 feet. Wolfe: Okay but I mean you’re using it from the proximity right there of the sign, built -- okay. If they continue to go -- let's say they leave there and now they are using that other driveway, now -- so they are coming out there about another 25 feet. I don't know, I have always found that car lights heading towards your house would -- I mean it's a beam, they can appear to be fairly bright, and they do carry. That's been my experience. Nary: Okay but I mean wouldn't they -- I'm just trying to understand your concern. Wolfe: Sure. Sure. I can understand. Nary: Wouldn't the car -- I mean if a car does decide to travel this direction out of the lot that I'm talking about -- Wolfe: All right. Nary: Well, they are only going to be in this location for a few seconds to turn that way. Wolfe: Okay. Nary: Unless they can't because of the parking space. Wolfe: Maybe the lighting -- maybe the lights and the trees can help with that and maybe I should rephrase it and then maybe the primary concern should be the sound and the noise that will come from it, then. Maybe that would be probably the priority. That's the part that gets the most annoying. I mean, you know, I agree, the fence and those trees should help knock down those lights and not make them near as bothersome, but the noise, on the other side of the coin, I don't see much relief in that area. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 16 of 27 Nary: Can you hear the traffic on Fairview? Wolfe: To some extent, yes. You can -- more like road noise, you know, I mean nothing -- nothing terrible. The Norco building has blocked a lot of that out. However, if you have been in the Dove Meadows area and I haven't spent a lot of time on the other side, because it's such a new subdivision we don't have lots of stuff to absorb sound very well. I mean I'm just talking if I go out in the front of my house and talk and I don't have to talk very loud, you can hear my voice carry, and I am concerned from that standpoint that kids running around with their stereos on loud -- I mean I don't know how well supervised they are going to be able to be in that place as far as turning them down and moderating them. I don't know what type of music is being used in this place. I doubt that it's just silent. I would assume that there is something in the way of music or something going on and it's in the form of a speaker system -- nobody could tell me this and I -- and maybe you could clarify it, as to how people place orders when they are out in the drive-in areas. It's really, I guess, noise that would be my biggest concern and -- Nary: Do you know how much the noise decibel level is reasonable? How far -- Wolfe: I wouldn't -- scientifically I wouldn't know. I would expect a few planning people and stuff like that -- Nary: It it's 150 feet to the property line from there, would you have any idea how 50 decibels might carry or -- Wolfe: No. I wouldn't. I will say this, that, you know, it also depends on which way the wind is blowing. You know, if the wind is coming from the south, southwest, it will carry that sound a lot further than it might if it was going a different direction. It's just -- the biggest problem that I see with this, it's a high traffic situation, okay, and I have been told that Norco and these other places are considered high traffic, but they won't have near the cars going through it that that Sonic restaurant will and considering the hours of operation, I mean -- Nary: Nothing further. Corrie: Any other questions? Thank you. Wolfe: Thank you. Corrie: Anyone else like to issue testimony? Okay. Skip, there are some questions about some things. Maybe you can have a chance to -- Hofferber: Okay. Corrie: What kind of sound system are you going to have there for ordering? I guess that was one of the -- the sound -- Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 17 of 27 Hofferber: It's made by Ordermatic and, he's right, the one driveway speaker which faces, if you will, next to -- do you see that little dot? That is actually what is called an order-taking post and it will have the speaker in it, although the one thing that will be buffered, there still will be a car in front of it, that the sound will be going north towards the back there. You also look at it I mean it's aimed right at the edge of the building. If you go right from that post straight back, it's going to the building, which will carry. There is also going to be a car in front of it to buffer it, because if a car pulls up here and orders here, so -- and the decibel level is far less than any traffic. There have been studies done, the decibel level at these speaker systems are less than what the traffic would be on Fairview. If they can hear the traffic on Fairview, it's going to be louder than it would be through the speaker system. The other order taking stations, again, are at each stall, which we call a stall, and the ones adjacent to the building, if you will -- yes. Right there. -- will be facing south, so all the sound will be going the other way. On the other side -- pardon me. I stand corrected. They will be north, but, again, there will be a car in front of every one of them and then the one where the arrow is, the sound will be going north and then on the other side it's, you know, totally obstructed by the building there, so -- the decibel levels are -- like I mean when you are in your car and you have a normal conversation like we would be right here. It's not highly amplified, so -- Corrie: Do you have outside music? Hofferber: Pardon me? Corrie: Do you have outside music? Hofferber: Yes. There is. What they are -- and we can direct the speakers and what it plays is -- as a theme is, because we are a -- what you would call an older drive-in, '50s and '60s, and that's the type of music they play. It's -- I have been on our lot on Overland and I have been to the back of the lot, which on Overland the lot is a lot larger. This lot is I think 28,000 square feet, ours is 36,000, and I have been back of the lot by the landscaping and you can't hear the music, because it's up underneath the canopies and it's facing down, the music. Corrie: Council? Bird: I don't. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Is it Hofferber? Hofferber: Hofferber. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 18 of 27 Nary: Hofferber. Okay. I'm curious that at your location on Overland -- Hofferber: Okay. Nary: -- you said there is landscaping and it appears me on this site -- I mean all you have is a cement block building, which have a tendency to echo sound more. There isn't anything like that at Overland right? There isn't any -- there isn't any buildings it's all landscaping to the rear of the lot? Hofferber: Right. There is no -- Nary: Trees or -- Hofferber: Yes. Way back. I mean there is -- on the other side there will development in back of us, eventually. Nary: But on this one I guess what I'm concerned -- what Mr. Wolfe has brought up, you know, there probably isn't a whole lot of sound, but, you know, at night when the other businesses are closed, so you don't have really any other ambient noise or anything on except Sonic -- Hofferber: Right. Nary: -- and all you have is buildings here, which aren't as good a buffer of sound as trees can be, because they tend to reflect sound -- that's what I guess concerns me, is you don't have a whole lot of -- there is no buffering around your property here -- Hofferber: At the back there is not, other than right where that trash enclosure is there is some trees and stuff there and there is some here. Nary: Here? Hofferber: Yes. There. Also, at the end of the order station and that's from the Planning and Zoning recommendation. We added the trees -- Nary: The trees are here? Hofferber: No. We added trees to the very back, back by the fence. Nary: Right here? Hofferber: That's correct. Nary: Is there any opportunity to provide any other type of sound buffering or an eight foot -- or an eight foot fence or an eight foot wall or something else? What I'm Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 19 of 27 concerned is what Mr. Wolfe has raised is that this sound that travels from here will be reflected more by this building into this almost funnel effect. Hofferber: Again, I can't speak to that, that's not my property. Our property that we are leasing is here. You know, Mr. Kissler, who is the owner of Norco and the developer of the property, you know, I -- Nary: I'm just concerned that -- I mean there is a lot of things about what you want to do here that I think are very good, but what I am concerned is that the folks that live here that are going to be back here in about a year saying it's like a -- it's like a sound tunnel. Hofferber: So you're saying like a wall from that corner of the property from the corner of the building? Nary: Yes and I don't know what's the best thing. I mean I'm not a sound engineer either, but I have done -- I did do some work in regards to sound in the noise ordinance that the City of Boise has and so I have some understanding of how it does work. I know that this is -- I mean that's a fairly good distance, 150 feet is pretty good, but at night when there is not a lot of cars here, this business is closed, right, at night? There is not a lot of cars here to break up the sound. There is just a cement wall that reflects sound, it doesn't really absorb it, and all we have is a fence and some trees, it doesn't seem like it's a very good buffer if I'm the house right there. Hofferber: I know there is a -- which is not drawn on there -- up against the Norco building there is a trash enclosure and I believe also there is one, which would be on the easterly edge of the property, that's not shown in those parking lots. I have driven back there and I believe there is one on that site that they have put in there, some type of wall. I don't know -- but there is a fence there, there is some trees, and with the trees we would add -- about adding another type wall or structure, I don't know. Nary: And there is not enough adequate space on the site you're leasing to provide any other buffer, I take it? Hofferber: Yes because there is a road with the -- what's required by the fire department and everything, the access around there, you know, without blocking off the access is pretty -- you know. Nary: And was there ever a thought or discussion about reorienting the business this direction, rather than -- Hofferber: Which direction? Nary: Basically going east and west. Hofferber: There is just not room. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 20 of 27 Nary: There is not adequate room to -- Hofferber: That's correct. The depth is more critical as opposed to the width. Nary: You said the speaker system for the music that's played on the outside is all oriented down towards the -- Hofferber: That's correct. The canopies are nine foot. If you will, that door is six eight - - I would say that's nine foot or higher. It would be like where that recessed light is and they are pointing down like this. Nary: And what decibel level do you think that is? Hofferber: That I couldn't tell you, but I could find out. The one thing we can do is make sure we point them all towards Fairview. That is not a problem, you know. Nary: I guess would it be reasonable or possible to at least put a decibel limitation at the fence line, so that it's something we can measure later. That way if there is some way to get -- because what I would do is I think -- like I said, I think with your business, I think at least you would want to allow -- if there is something we don't know, how far that sound is going to carry and what's it going to be like at night. Is there going to be a lot more noise generated than we anticipate, those kinds of things. Is there a way that you would it would be reasonable and fair to you to put a sound decibel amount at the property line that we could then measure to make sure that it doesn't exceed a certain amount. Hofferber: Right and I don't know, you know, what a -- like what my voice would be decibel level right now, so I don't know what the speakers are, what levels, so to sit there are arbitrarily say, you know, it's a 6.2 decibel level or a 3.2, what would be acceptable -- Nary: Well, for example, I know -- and it probably came up in your -- with the Sonic in Boise, since they have a drive-thru, they must have a CUP; correct? Hofferber: Okay. Nary: And with that CUP it requires that their drive-thru speaker can't emit more than 50 decibels at 300 feet from -- Hofferber: Is that the way it is? What the city of Boise is? Nary: Right. At least if it was the same standard, would you think that would be reasonable to you? Hofferber: Sure and I think -- and then I don't know at that point something to say what do you do to resolve that problem at that point. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 21 of 27 Nary: You orient speakers, turn them down -- Hofferber: Or turn them down. Nary: Something like that. Then you wouldn't have to do a whole lot, other than simply reorient them or turn them down. Hofferber: And I think you would find the speakers wouldn't be operated without a car there, so I think once you see that, you will see what -- Nary: It's the music that concerns me. Hofferber: And we have absolute control of that as far as turning that down. Nary: Well, thank you. Hofferber: You're welcome. Corrie: Any other questions in the Public Hearing? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess, Brad, if you can put the site map back up. What is the distance there just to the north of that first aisle? Would there be an area you could put a landscape island, just to have another island of, you know, a couple of trees? Would that be a possibility to help reflect both noise and lights? Hawkins-Clark: Councilwoman de Weerd, are you referring to this -- like this area right here at the southeast corner of Norco's building? De Weerd: No. Be more an island between the parking strips. Right in there. Hawkins-Clark: Oh, I see. A new island. De Weerd: Like just a V-shaped island in the middle of that asphalt. Hawkins-Clark: Right. We have -- you know, we have got to have a minimum 25-foot by ordinance to back up out of a 90 degree stall in order to make the turning radius, you know, with an SUV particularly. I don't know -- no, I don't believe there would be enough room. Corrie: My question also might be it's not even his property, so we can't make him do that. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 22 of 27 Hawkins-Clark: Of course, this was all a single ownership, the whole parcel. It's not been subdivided. Corrie: Oh. Okay. That answers my question. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Brad, do you know what the decibel level in the city of Meridian is by ordinance? Hawkins-Clark: I didn't know there was one. Corrie: Events you mean? For evens they have or maximum -- Bird: No. You have got a level that is in the ordinance. Like at the speedway. Hawkins-Clark: There is a Noise Ordinance yes 6:00 to 10:00 are the hours. I'm sorry, I do not know off the top of my head the decibel level. The police department does -- Bird: I think it's -- 82 to 88? Does that sound -- Worley: Mr. Mayor and Mr. Bird, I don't know offhand, but, frankly, that sounds a little high. Bird: Yes. That's what I was going to say. I think that's -- Worley: My guess would be probably ambient in the 70s. Bird: Yes because I know at the speedway we could not go over 92 and that's what we had on the -- Nary: I think in the city of Boise, as I told Mr. Hofferber, to have a -- to have a speaker system, and outdoor speaker system for a drive-thru restaurant, it can't exceed -- and I'm pretty sure 55 decibels at the property line or 300 feet, depending on where it's at. There are certain ones that -- for example, that are immediately adjacent to the house, but down on Broadway, those are -- have what we call a close speaker system. Otherwise, it's 55. Now at that 125 feet, that's a pretty good distance and if it can't exceed 50 at the property line, which is -- I think in my recollection the noise study -- I would say talking above a normal tone is going to be right around that 50 to 55 level. If the noise that is emitted from this business doesn't exceed 55-decibel level at the property line, that's no different than having a house next to you is what the theory should be. That's at least a measurable amount that the property owners can at least measure and that Mr. Hofferber can control. He can't control the noise on Fairview and he can't control the other cars and we can't do that either, but at least he can control his Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 23 of 27 business noise and that at least gives him the ability to have something he can measure against, too, and at least then the homeowners have something they can address. Bird: Yes. I agree with you, because once they start -- the noise starts bouncing off those buildings and stuff it gets magnified at night and it would just be a tunnel down there. Nary: And even if it is -- I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor. Even if it is, you know, the patrons of the business, I mean they can have some control, they can put up signage and tell people to turn their music down or do some of the things -- they are trying to -- they don't want to drive away all their customers, they don't want that anyway, so they are going to try to keep that down. They want the atmosphere to be that '50's style, so they are not going to want everybody in there all blasting their stereos for two hours, they want them to eat and move on and not do that. I don't think it's a huge problem, but that will at least give a measurable amount, so we can at least have something to assess if that's not a reasonable amount, we can always revisit it so it's fair to both parties. Corrie: Any other questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Okay. Now the hearing -- De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess on the three trees that they will be adding to the back of that property, six feet -- you can find a pine tree a little taller than that. Well, Bill, I'm surprised you're not offering that there is a place they can get some. Nary: I have heard there is a place you can get some. De Weerd: But, you know, I'd like to see at least those a little bit taller. Six feet won't even go above the fence and the noise will be there immediate and so I'd like to see the height increased. How tall were those? Bird: They were looking at 30 feet. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Is there some -- is there any height restrictions on the fence? I don't know how much space is in there, but if you put eight foot trees in there, is there adequate space in that location to put three eight foot trees in that spot? Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 24 of 27 De Weerd: I don't know. Corrie: Brad? Nary: It looks pretty small. Hawkins-Clark: Mr. Mayor, it is approximately 50 feet from the corner of the property to -- if you extend the building to that distance right there where Mr. Nary is speaking about, that that tunnel effect would come through there. It is 50 feet, so three trees -- so those are going to be a solid wall in, you know, a few years and that's really not a lot of space for a mature conifer. Three -- so you figure one tree every 18 feet, is that what that works out to be about? I mean -- Corrie: Close. Pretty close. Hawkins-Clark: One tree would be planted every 18 feet across -- within those 50 feet. De Weerd: Well, I'm not talking more I'm just talking -- Hawkins-Clark: Height. De Weerd: Maturity. Yes. The maturity of the tree that's installed is more than the minimum of six feet, say eight or 10 feet, you know. Hawkins-Clark: Six foot is the minimum under the Landscape Ordinance, so I don't know what the nursery stock is now, but certainly, I believe Mr. Van Hees got approximately 15-foot trees. That would probably be a little unusual. I think he looked hard for those, but -- De Weerd: But a 10 foot, wouldn't that be reasonable? Hawkins-Clark: I believe so. I believe the nursery stocks would have something like that. De Weerd: That gives it more immediate relief. Bird: It does. Corrie: Skip, would you come here. I thought we had closed the Public Hearing, but we didn't. We can ask you the question. Tammy. De Weerd: Would you be opposed to having a taller tree in there to start out? Hofferber: Not at all. I believe the other gentleman that was here at the Planning and Zoning meeting, one of -- the other neighbor -- and I told him -- I says, you know, if we Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 25 of 27 can't find suitable six foot I don't have any problem with going eight or 10 foot, whatever can get put in there to reflect any sound. De Weerd: So you would not be opposed to extending it to ten foot? Hofferber: You bet. De Weerd: To begin with? Hofferber: You bet. De Weerd: Okay. Hofferber: And I don't know if that's a two, three, or four inch caliper, whatever it is, but I'm sure -- as Brad says, I'm pretty sure they are probably available at some nursery here, that you could get up to a ten foot, probably. If you get much higher than that then they -- especially a pine tree, it gets this way quicker. De Weerd: Right. Hofferber: Yes. I don't have a problem. De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Does that help, Mr. Wolfe? Wolfe: Yes. Corrie: You've got to come up here, sir. Identify yourself again, please. You're still under oath. Wolfe: I'm David Wolfe. Corrie: Thank you. Wolfe: I appreciate that you are willing to work with us, Skip, and that would help, but I would still appreciate -- I like your idea, the fact that if we find that there is just -- the noise is exceeding -- it's getting to be a high level, so that we can have some way to work on that. Then -- and I don't know how you could do that. I don't know how you guys can help with that in the planning part, but if there is some -- you know, like you were talking 50 decibels at 150 feet or -- however you word that. I don't know. You seem to know way more about that than I. Just some way that we could work with him and we have some recourse if, in fact, we have got lots of teenagers out there with boom boxes and there is just lots of stuff going on, I'd like to have some way that we can get it managed a little bit. I appreciate your listening, though. Appreciate your time. That height of tree would be a good idea. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor, I move we close the Public Hearing. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 26 of 27 Bird: Second. Corrie: All in favor say aye? All ayes. Motion carried. The Public Hearing is now closed. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Corrie: Any other comments? All right. Then if there are no other comments, I'll entertain a motion for the request for Conditional Use Permit for Sonic Drive-in Restaurant. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I move that we approve CUP 02-018, request for Conditional Use Permit for the 1,406 square foot Sonic Drive-in Restaurant with a drive-thru in a C-G zone in an existing shopping center by Boise Food Service. To include all staff comments and the recommendations of the Planning and Zoning, with the following amendments. That Condition 1.2 of the recommendation be amended to reflect that the trees that are going to be placed on the corner of the lot. The three evergreen trees, would be a minimum of no less than 10 feet in height and that there also be a new condition that the sound -- the sound from Sonic Drive-in Restaurant not exceed 55 decibel levels at the property line. It will only leave one caveat so that Mr. Hofferber is assured between now when those findings are made if the intent of what we are trying to accomplish is to be consistent with your requirement of the city of Boise. In that interim, we will verify that that is what the requirement is and if it isn't -- if it's different, we will amend those findings to reflect that requirement so we will do the same. Again, to provide a measurement for both you and the neighbors to have. Right now, it would be 55 decibels at the property line from the Sonic restaurant. De Weerd: And findings -- Nary: To include Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order. De Weerd: Second. Corrie: Okay. Any other -- motion has been made and seconded. Is there any other discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call vote: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; DeWeerd, aye; Bird, aye. Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Meridian City Council Meeting September 10, 2002 Page 27 of 27 Corrie: That concludes the agenda for the Council meeting. McCandless: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. McCandless. McCandless: I would suggest that on the pre-Council agenda for next week that we would put the discussion of the Ten Mile Fire Department signal on. Corrie: Got it. Corrie: With that being said, I will entertain a motion, then, if there is no other business from the Council that we adjourn. Bird: So moved. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor, I move we adjourn. Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made. Is there a second? Bird: Second. Corrie: All those in favor say aye. Opposed no? Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Corrie: At 9:15. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:15 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK