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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007 01-30 Joint Planning & Zoning Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 The Meridian City Council joint meeting was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 at the Meridian Police Department by President Councilman Joe Borton. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Charlie Rountree and Joe Borton. Members Absent: David Zaremba. Planning & Zoning Commissioners Present: Michael Rohm, Steve Siddoway, David Mae. Planning & Zoning Commissioners Absent: Keith Borup and Wendy Newton- Huckabay. Staff Present: Bill Nary, Pete Friedman, Anna Canning, Caleb Hood, Bruce Freckleton, Joe Silva, John Overton and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: Roll call. o David Zaremba X Joe Borton X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird X Mayor Tammy de Weerd (arrived at 6:12) o Keith Borup 0 Wendy Newton-Huckabay X David Mae (arrived at 6:30) X Steve Siddoway (arrived at 6:10) X Michael Rohm - chairman 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Borton: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we adopt the agenda as published. Rountree: Second. Borton: It has been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda. All those in favor say aye. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 2 of 24 ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. 3. Discussion of Proposed Design Review Process by Anna Canning: Borton: Each of us has been presented information from Anna in regards to (inaudible) process proposal, position and I hope you have all had a chance to review them and I will turn it over to Anna to present. Canning: Thank you, sir. I think the first thing that I would like to talk about because I would like to get it resolved is the job description position - and I did go through with Councilman Rountree and he had some suggestions about how to modify it and shorten it a bit. I tried to incorporate all of those comments, although with all of the requirements from Human Resources and all of the stuff that we were supposed to add from the Aspire On (inaudible--), it is still three pages, Mr. Rountree. I am sorry I couldn't get it down to two, but I really tried. Rountree: You only need one. Canning: I did with Council Member Rountree's direction; I did move it more towards the Planning position also and under my review eventually (inaudible--). This person would eventually report to City Council with design review with suggestion rather than what I had originally proposed an idea of hearing (inaudible--). Certainly we are going to talk about that more today or later. But, I did tried to gear it more towards (inaudible--) and with (inaudible). The other thing I added in was more site planning skills to help out (inaudible--). Right now a lot of those questions (inaudible--) and at slow times when there is not a lot (inaudible---). (Inaudible--) a good site design verses a poor site design. So, those were the changes I made for the job description. I would like to get this out so we can start talking (inaudible--). So, I will end that discussion here. If you want me to go on I will or I will take your comments on that. (Inaudible discussion) Borton: Is there an essential duty, responsibility that describes the (inaudible--) type function that (inaudible)? Canning: It wasn't in there specifically, but I as went through I put more emphasis on going to City Council hearings and perhaps to reflect that change that was in (inaudible). It wasn't (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Borton: I don't know what it is intended, but it is identified a potential conflicts (inaudible--)? Is that between an agency -? Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 3 of 24 Canning: Between the applicants and staff and that is a generic statement throughout all of the hour job descriptions that came out of some of the initial in Aspire On - (inaudible--). Borton: Were you looking for specific direction on (inaudible--)? Canning: Well, there was some question as to whether I should go forward with the hiring process at the last meeting. So, Mr. Bird was concerned about the down turn in build ing permits (inaudible--) for this year and I was going to forward for Council's approval, but I held off until January for this very reason. In case Council wanted to make a decision otherwise. So, I need a thumbs up or thumbs down. Bird: Anna, I will answer that (inaudible--). In the eight years of budgeting that I have done for the City of Meridian, we have never penalized a department for getting money back at the end of the year to the next year. If you really feel that you need this place, you know the first quarter that Council got their first quarter reports, our revenues are bad. December we had five commercial permits and only five residential. I am the type of believer that if we can hold off then we should. Other than that (inaudible--). How many of you guys have worked at a business where you have had to lay people off? We do get slow and that can happen. It is not pleasant. (Inaudible--). If you feel you need it, I am behind you 1 00 percent, if you feel you really, really need it. But, if you can get by for a month or two to see how the economy is going, I would (inaudible--). Rountree: Mr. President. Borton: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: My position is that we have been dealing with this stuff (inaudible---), not only staff but ourselves. I n all fairness (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Borton: Mr. Rountree, I agree and for the record we will welcome Mayor De Weerd and Mr. Siddoway just joining us. I (inaudible). I would go forth and (inaudible--). (Inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) (Speaker unknown): (Inaudible --). In the event we get into dire straits at some point down the road and (inaudible) process in place and some guidelines (inaudible-- ). Borton: One of the things Anna was looking for, to the Mayor and Steve is going over the job description and if there are comments or edits or additions or Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 4 of 24 changes to be made is what we are having a discussion on. Is there any suggestions? (Inaudible --). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: One of the things that I was going to do was (inaudible--). I have started to look at our fees; look at how much time it takes to process these (inaudible--) and to look at it (inaudible), not just overhead (inaudible--) personnel overhead (inaudible--). So, right now (inaudible--). So, I will bring back that analysis to you to (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Nary: Mr. President. Borton: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. President, Madame Mayor, Members of the Council if it gives you any additional, I guess, comfort in this type of a position in looking at the market, I am sure you all recall some recent discussions (inaudible--) regarding (inaudible) and design issues. You know they have had, obviously a much larger city and they have had slower growth than what we have experienced in the last few years and yet this is the one area (inaudible--). Because of the needs as infill development happens and as the type of growth change evolves as we have even seen from our end, here focusing more on that (inaudible) of design (inaudible) experiencing and it has got some (inaudible), sometimes you all have to struggle to make that fit into their traditional application (inaudible) presentation that you have seen. I think this type of position, even with some slight slowing maybe in the building industry, the application aren't going to slow very rapidly and we are going to be looking at different types of developments, different types of infill. You have seen some of that in the South Ridge development and the different types of lots that they had long discussions on, which were different from what we have been seeing. But, I think you are going to see a lot of challenges and I think having a staff with that expertise is critical for the city in the long run for what we are doing. I just don't envision, at least the way the market is around here (inaudible--). (Inaudible--). You may see other types of things if the building infrastructure changes, but that design aspect if everyone of you thinks is critically serious (inaudible--) - that was part of the challenge in getting this job description together was Ms. Canning was trying to really quantify what is it the city wants (inaudible--). I don't see it I guess probably as problematic as the general (inaudible--) picture of the industry itself. Bird: To clarify one thing and like I spoke earlier that that is your call, but I don't compare Boise with Meridian; they are different cities. We got to worry about what is best (inaudible--). So, what Boise does, Boise does. When you get your fees and stuff you (inaudible--), not what Boise needs, what Nampa needs or Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 5 of 24 anybody else (inaudible--). I am not sold 1 00 percent on this design review because I have a hard time telling somebody when they are building a three or four million dollar building that they got to build it a certain way. I mean, safety, life safety, yes; but design, I don't (inaudible--). De Weerd: I appreciate this dialogue. I guess when we set down with the budget last year, including (inaudible) as Councilman Rountree said this does comes up and I do know that the development community really, really likes - you know they want to know what the expectations of our city is and they want to know those expectations are consistent and fair. This division (inaudible) set those criteria and set the principles and processes into place to make sure that we are fair. It is ethical and everyone is held to the same standards and those are comments that we heard, not only at (inaudible--) community, but our Council and raising the bar. You know from our citizens' aspect and what we want to look like and then make sure we have those policies in place and make sure that we are managing the growth and creating a community that we are all aspiring towards and I (inaudible---) what (inaudible) are. But, it is those very same clients of ours that are also sending don't add another layer, but tell us what you know. I think that this is the position as we sold you last year when we talked about it that (inaudible---). Bird: Mr. President. Borton: Mr. Bird. Bird: Tammy I don't disagree with what you said, but we must be (inaudible). This is another layer of bureaucracy, it is another cost. You add a dollar here, by the time a consumer buys it, you are up to five dollars and I know we have been very fortunate the last eight years, but you can have a slow down now and nobody would like to see that happen. (Inaudible discussion) Borton: I think we are kind of saying some of the same things, but in different ways. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Well, usually it takes us about a month before we can get through the interview process at least and another two weeks. So, it would be April - Borton: Any other questions on the job description? (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 6 of 24 Canning: The way the job description is actually written is to help develop standards and process in going forward. To that end though we do have some materials in your packets tonight with regards to possible ways to do design review process. President Borton you had asked for some information from other local cities and I have provided that information to you as well. It was not my expectation that we would specifically come up with a process tonight, unless that is Council's desire. But it wasn't what I anticipated tonight. We provided a series of questions and I think that by answering those questions that will help us decide how to move forward and establish what kind of process might be best if we come back to you with some more specific suggestions, but if you would like, President Borton I can give that overview of how other cities do their design review? There are three (inaudible) communities that do have a design review process - Eagle, Boise and Nampa. Nampa has just started theirs and to be truthful, I put in a call over there, but I wasn't able to connect with anybody right away. My understanding is that it's a staff level review and that's about all I know right now. I haven't had a chance to look at the criteria. I didn't even know about it until about 3:00 this afternoon. I haven't had much time to research it. Let me talk a little bit about the Eagle process. I got this information from an architect and thought that might be the best source (inaudible). So, the most difficult (inaudible) Eagle process at this time is all non residential and multi-family structures more than 40 are subject for design review. They will get building designs, (inaudible) materials and colors and the landscape design as a separate component of the design review. Now, let's assume a conditional use permit is required or at least I have that information on how (inaudible--). If a CU is required it goes to the Planning and Zoning Commission first at one hearing. They have a second hearing to adopt the findings and facts - it is not a consent agenda item, it is actually another hearing with a possibility of adding to the conditions and changing. So, the applicants have to show up at both hearings. You can run a Conditional Use and a design review concurrently (inaudible--), although many people decide not to because they don't want to spend the money towards the design until they know all of the (inaudible) and requirements. So, they tend run them (inaudible). So, you go through your two hearings with the Planning & Zoning Commission, but it is not approved at that point (inaudible--) approved by City Council. But, before you get to City Council, you go to the Design Review Commission and have a hearing there. Then you also have to go to the findings of fact hearings for the design review issues. So, we are up to four hearings. Then you have the City Council and at the City Council, you can appeal any of the P&Z's conditions or the design review conditions - (inaudible--) as part of the overall (inaudible). But they do hold those hearings together - if you run them concurrently they will hold those two together. Then you have another hearing for (inaudible--). So, there is potentially six hearings. (Inaudible) and because City Council is the final decision maker, basically we deal with (inaudible--). The Boise process, they have a number of the designation properties, which at this point is about every non residential (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 7 of 24 Canning: (Inaudible--). But, if you were just doing one four-plex (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Staff can review some of the smaller projects, so if it has like a warehouse and it is less than 10,000 square feet, staff can review and approve that right then and there. So, there is a threshold of staff review on some of those smaller projects. So, they can get through the process a little easier (inaudible--). So, I was not aware of that until today. If a CU is required, it goes only to the Planning and Zoning Commission at one hearing - if the applications are run concurrently, (inaudible--) and then there hearings are staggered in the same way (inaudible--). So, they are in the same week that they (inaudible--). Then you would go to the Design Review Commission. So, if it is just a conditional use in the design review it does not go to City Council. It just goes to the Commission. If you wanted to appeal the design review action, you can appeal that up to the Planning & Zoning Commission and you state your appeal there. If you want to appeal further from there, then you appeal for City Council. If you want to appeal just the P&Z action by the Commission (inaudible--). That is about all I know. I did speak briefly about the composition of the two commissions in Eagle and Boise (inaudible--) generally there are one or two landscape architects, one or two architects and two or three citizens. They tend to be folks that have worked with development and are developers or some sort of person (inaudible--). Both commissions have a liaison from the (inaudible). That is alii know. Borton: Thank you. We would like to welcome Commissioner Moe of the Planning and Zoning Commission (inaudible--). Okay, thanks Anna for the background on some of the other agencies and we can begin discussion on the design review options (inaudible). Canning: If the President, Mayor or Councilor Planning Commissioners have (inaudible) and specific directions that would like us to research further, please speak now. I mean, if you are only interested in staff level, let us know now and we will detail out options for (inaudible--). Bird: That is my preference. Less meetings, less bureaucracy. Canning: Madame Mayor, Council, Commissioners, the only people that have made me cry at public hearings is design review, so I have no desire to send somebody else through that torture. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Okay, so we will work on a staff model, with probably an appeal up to Council's discretion or (inaudible--). Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 8 of 24 Siddoway: Do you have any examples of a staff model? The one you mentioned (inaudible). I am just curious is that a concurrent process like the (inaudible) version ends or is that something that happens (inaudible--)? Canning: President Borton, Council, Commissioners and Mayor (inaudible--) because I planned on using it after this discussion. But, I think (inaudible--) review it. The way the job description is written right now - (inaudible--) add maybe a zone compliance process (inaudible--) that design review (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: President Borton, Commissioner Siddoway I think we could do it either way. Some people (inaudible--). Sometimes we fully evaluate the project (inaudible--) have a finished elevation, we will look at it and then decide review criteria (inaudible--) conceptual or (inaudible--). Right now it is not always the same way; we could make it very consistent; we could leave a little latitude (inaudible-- ). Friedman: Mr. President, Mayor, Council Members, Commissioners I think as a follow up to Commissioner Siddoway's question is we can build it into the process so that perhaps a standard condition of a conditional use permit (inaudible) of design review. One of the things Anna and I have talked a little bit about and I certainly (inaudible) is building on perhaps like a pre-application process (inaudible--). So, they are poised to (inaudible--). Canning: For example for a long range (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Bird: You stated that the (inaudible--) kind of the one that you said that staff (inaudible) that you were kind of looking at (inaudible--). I read through this and I thought that they had some pretty good ideas to look at to give us a design review process (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Bird: No, no do what you think is best. It is just a suggestion. Friedman: Mr. President, Mayor, Council Members and Commissioners the little paper that we have before us was prepared by our department intern and he focused on a couple of places. I think as we move forward we can look at a couple more cities that have (inaudible--) but also staff's level of reviews. I noticed with that (inaudible--). We can find a couple of other examples (inaudible--) and how to make the process work and integrate with land use (inaudible-- ). Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 9 of 24 Bird: I just thought (inaudible) would be a good example because they are same size that we are and they have grown I think as fast as we have. De Weerd: Mr. President. Borton: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess I would agree with the process or the (inaudible) and we just again want to be clear on what we are seeing and what it shown before the Commission and the Council is brought into that process. Again, we are seeing things that a property is being flipped and those pretty pictures that we saw are not the ones that we have built and we want to make sure that they are and that what we see is actually what we are going to get (inaudible--). Canning: The first product that you will see out of this new hire is a proposal for the process and have them take it (inaud ible--). One of the things that I have heard from a person that I talked to today is that in some ways having a commission helps, not that he wants a commission necessarily, but just that there are variety of views that you are not subject to one person's definition as what qualifies as (inaudible) and that there may other definitions. So, he suggested somehow getting multiple staff members involved (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Borton: Anna can you talk a little bit about the materials that we have in here? It seems to be some of the threshold requirements in a district and issues. One thing (inaudible--) and got a reaction is there an area where you wouldn't want the designing to be applied? Canning: Well that is in our questions for you. So, are you talking about the threshold (inaudible) in here or the thresholds in the (inaudible)? (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Pete is more familiar with that and I think our questions are designed to try and get some of that out to you also. I think we should just jump into the questions. Friedman: Yeah, that will probably take us through (inaudible--). Just briefly and I think as Anna indicated (inaudible--) typically single family is exempt from design review unless (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 10 of 24 Friedman: Also applying to signs of landscape and these are questions that (inaudible--) and get us some direction, then apply to our new employ. (Inaudible-- ). Canning: We understand that you may not have a (inaudible) threshold (inaudible--) but probably at some point there is a clear no we don't need it for that and at some point there is a clear yes, we do need it for that. So, if we can at least find out what are (inaudible) is (inaudible--). Right now, I don't know where these lines are at all. (Inaudible--). Hood: I just real quick wanted to add something to Pete's first thought and then try to get you thinking about some of what this position should be. Residential, as Pete said, most places unless it is a historic district or some other hot spot, single family (inaudible--); however, most of the residential projects that we see they do present elevations to the Council and Council says yes we like these or no we don't. We don't have anyone in house that then takes this before they pull building permits to make sure that they are building the pretty pictures that they showed at Council. So, I don't know if that is called design review or not, but if in fact we are supposed to be checking to make sure that each home in a 400 block subdivision is built in substantial compliance with those elevations and that is going to be a big role for this person if we hire someone to do that. I am not - you know I talked briefly with Bruce and the Building Department a little bit about how we make that work because we don't want a separate application where they come up to us and wait for a week for our review. I mean, if we can do it over the counter and get them out the door - just some quick review that we can look at those - so I don't want to - just think about if residential should be a part of that or not I guess is what I am asking because right now we don't have that person qualified or that step is missing. De Weerd: I know we are trying to tie a lot of this into the GIS and you know as they come in something can trigger that it is in the development agreement that elevations were so and they should be able to trigger (inaudible--) review at a certain level. It has been certainly certain developers that there is concern over and in the entry corridors along the arterials (inaudible--). Certainly those are up high in visibility and concern. It is those that come in front of us and say this is going to (inaudible--) and you drive down the road nine months later and it is like oh my god what on earth is that? So, they built this picture in your mind and that is the expectations. I don't care if they flipped it, but they better flip it with the same vision they sold it with and that is one of the concerns. The other one and it is what we see and that is if you are going to bring in elevations that again sets the precedence to your expectations. So, it is hard to answer that Caleb because when we they bring an elevation, the expectation is set and I don't know how (inaudible--) where you get more interest, more feedback from a citizen, there are going to be the higher density development and certainly for four plexes. But where you get into your more narrow frontages and how - what is (inaudible--) and how does that affect the aesthetics (inaudible) in general? So, Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 11 of 24 that was very vague and very broad. It is hard to pin those down and we need probably more of a recommendation coming back to us - these -- are some of the applications that we have heard you express concerns about. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: What I am hearing is probably some minimal standards for (inaudible) in family residential, we should at least bring back to you to avoid (inaudible) without any (inaudible) and we will bring that forward to you - I think the point that Caleb was trying to make is that given, even with the down turns on buildings (inaudible) in and of itself and we don't need (inaudible--). But, if we are reviewing 5,000 single family residential permits for the year (inaudible--). I think that is what Caleb was trying to point out is that is a big task (inaudible--). But, if we have got some minimal qualifications, I think we can figure out a way to get the subdivisions (inaudible--). Bird: I don't know how you would review -- when they bring the elevations before us, you know that is just a CC&R (inaudible--). Very few developers (inaudible) and very few have the same house plans. So, I don't know how - through our building codes we make it safe and (inaudible) and everything works. The design of them - I can take you guys to a house in Boise (inaudible--) and I bet you (inaudible--). But, I think we are really stepping out of our bounds here. If you are going to do that, throw the codes out and we can't do that. (Inaudible discussion) Rountree: High density developments (inaudible) come before Council, it has been approved (inaudible--) and some little thing rejected from the zoning (inaudible) so there has to be some minimum, whether it is material or alternating elevations or (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) (Tape turned over) (Inaudible discussion) Moe: I would say that I agree entirely, Mr. Chairman with some of these. But, I have more of a question than anything else (inaudible--). We have had applicants come before us and we have, in fact, made recommendations or stipulations that they would have stucco or this or that and they agree at that point. I am hearing that some of that isn't happening, but why are we not pushing that through the process for approval as we go? When they are built it is not being done? So, therefore, I guess my point - well, that is why my point comes up as yes we do need (inaudible--), so therefore, it does get done. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 12 of 24 (Speaker unknown): (Inaudible--) and concerns that I have and brought here for your consideration is right now we don't have a requirement (inaudible--) representations and elevations to (inaudible--). If we had a requirement that every development bring forth or showing what is going to be built there would be one thing, but I think if we require compliance with what they do present what I think we are going to see is they are just not going to be anything forward - another thing is we tried very, very hard through the Building Department, through (inaudible) and that sort of thing to really cut our timeline down to (inaudible--). My concern is we have this next level; it is going to stretch out this timeline for approval. Those are just concerns that I have with regard to this residential. Canning: (Inaudible--) two things going on here. So, let us take that information and (inaudible--). We are not looking for you to solve it tonight, let us take all that information and come back (inaudible--). I don't know how. We will think about it and we will try and bring something back to you with very minimal on the single family - I am hearing definitely on the four plexes or (inaudible--) towards single family (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: You may wonder why you get so many elevations (inaudible--). But, if you don't have elevations by the time you get to Council, there is no way you will have a chance (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Bird: (Inaudible--). You know you can say here is our standards, but (inaudible). So, you have go through standards (inaudible--). Ten years from now you would wish that you had them (inaudible--). Canning: Well we will look at that. So, you want to make the cutoff based on zoning rather than (inaudible)? Bird: (Inaudible--). Canning: The first cut is R-8 and above, but well most duplexes are attached to R-8 (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Bird: You have got a good point there, Tammy, but (inaudible--). (Inaudible--). Borton: (Inaudible--). Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 13 of 24 Nary: (Inaudible--). As Councilman Rountree pointed out, if it is an R-4 single family subdivision, they brought you renderings of what they are going to build - on many occasions in the last year or two, that has been the tipping point (inaudible--) number of projects (inaudible--). (I naudible--) the point is we just don't have the mechanism right now to do that, so I think in this process as we look through what the (inaudible) will be on the upper end of density types of development, it will help us (inaudible) on how do we at least address it on the other types of development. They are going to bring you a picture that at least generally have something (inaudible) to that picture in the design and we just need to figure out how to do that. We certainly will work with planning on how to get that done. Bird: (Inaudible--). When they come in for a permit (inaudible--) with elevations (inaudible--) that could be done right there and it shouldn't take any extra time (inaudible--). Like Bruce said, we can't be shoving a bunch of time on this (inaudible--) getting more calls and you start making this processes longer (inaudible--). I don't know why we can't take care of it at that level (inaudible--) that is when we care anyway. (Inaudible--). Borton: Bruce? Freckleton: Follow up, please. What we kind of talked about internally is that (inaudible--) commercial project now, we ask for a certificate of zoning compliance (inaudible--). On a residential what we talked about is that he would take his plans to Planning first, basically (inaudible--) approval and get the stamp and then come down for the building permit process. Bird: What kind of timeline are we looking, Anna? Can you do it on (inaudible)? Canning: I hoping to come back to you with all (inaudible). If all it is is that (inaudible--) then maybe even the Building Department could do that. Now, if (inaudible) at least three modulations (inaudible--) that kind of stuff they are not going to be able to do. I want to get a feel for what kind of standards we are talking about before we start saying oh they will do it or we will do it - (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Okay, so let's move on. I think we have got a good idea of when you are looking for a residential, at least some idea. Let's move onto institutional and civic uses. Do you want to make them subject to - these are projects that you probably will be doing, so that you want to make yourself (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 14 of 24 Friedman: One of the things that I thought about is that we as regulators of (inaudible), rules and regulations (inaudible) that we should be (inaudible--). (Inaudible--) as Councilman Rountree indicated (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Borton: Anna, I mean I throw it out for reverse questions (inaudible--). I don't know (inaudible--) threshold (inaudible--). Canning: Well, let me throw out one - without an industrial use on the interior of (inaudible--). Do you care that that use (inaudible--) or a commercial project on (inaudible-- ). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Are we looking at all of those kinds of structures or do we want have a little one there (inaudible--) along arterials (inaudible--) what should we be considering? Borton: Is there an example of something that we might share of something like that where (inaudible--)? There is no point in having standards just for the sake of having them. The whole point of this process is to alleviate a future problem that we might not have fixed in the past. (Inaudible--)? (Inaudible discussion) Bird: Oh, you are talking about Watertower? I am talking about the (inaudible) development over here. (Inaudible--). I think they turned out beautiful. Canning: Yeah, I think all of them have met some standard, but that could have gone - there was no reason they had to go as nice as they did. (Inaudible discussion) Bird: If you look at some of the metal buildings, they are pretty nice buildings when they get the finishing done (inaudible--). Canning: Yep and we have that one (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: (Inaudible--) and again I would go back to getting on the zoning category and the intensity of that category (inaudible--). Canning: Well, what I think I am doing (inaudible) minimal standards (inaudible) might have a higher minimum standard and then some additional standards Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 15 of 24 (inaudible--). If we already have additional standards for (inaudible) corridors (inaudible) will be pretty accepted. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: My concern would be what if we interpret it and then the homeowner's association and then you have these folks in the middle of this and they say we can do it - we have already run into this - they say we can do it, you say we can't - home occupations - we don't (inaudible) that - (inaudible--) CC&R's and say well good for you then you could enforce it then. So, I would be reluctant to adopt those design standards out of the CC&R's. Perhaps, if you are convinced that their CC&R's should take care of it and you don't need to apply those design reviews, those do change, but usually they change after every few years. You could be relatively (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: That may be doable because - we might be able to work with that one (inaudible-- ). Rountree: (Inaudible--). Bird: I think most of your developers do have their own CC&R's and standards (inaudible--) and usually they are more stringent than what we pass. I mean some guy isn't going to go out there and spend a bunch of money on some land and then throw a bunch of junk in there when he wants nice buildings in there. So, the (inaudible--) you don't see a bunch of (inaudible--). I am for letting them police it instead of us. Rountree: (Inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: The other problem you have about having project specific design standards is (inaudible--) - although there is certainly that opportunity that if somebody comes up with some great idea or some great (inaudible--). I can be a fan of reasonably well done international styles (inaudible--). But somebody may come to you and say we really want to do this whole subdivision (inaudible). So, there is always that option available (inaudible--). Borton: Anna, back on the thresholds (inaudible--)? Canning: I think I got what I needed on the types of development. The only thing that I heard was perhaps arterials and entryway corridors; I have suggested arterials - do you want a different treatment on arterials or just entryway corridors? Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 16 of 24 (Inaudible discussion) Canning: What about collectors? (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: Collectors sometimes turn into arterials. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: All right. New construction only or remodels and additions and then is it only remodels and additions to the faQade - if they are adding onto the back - do you care? (Inaudible discussion) Nary: (Inaudible--) a fairly broad (inaudible--) change. You (inaudible) percentage of (inaudible) facade and the change before it kicks in. They will do "x" percent and come back in six months and do another "x" percent until they get the whole building done. I think from an enforcement standpoint, that makes it tough. I mean, it is a lot easier to pick new construction or all new construction, remodels and exterior (inaudible--) back later (inaudible--) than to go the other way. Bird: I agree Bill. I think you hit it right on the head. If you are going to do new, you should do remodels, too (inaudible). (Inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Do you want something different on signs? Signs typically go (inaudible--). Maybe we will come back to you on a different day with signs because it gets confusing talking about signs (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Okay, so those are thresholds that we had talked about. We had talked a little bit about process already (inaudible--). We had originally intended kind of the administrative review concurrent with the certificate of zoning compliance (inaudible--). The questions were just a little (inaudible-). Maybe you would want to give guidance now or maybe you would want to wait until later. For discretionary approval for like (inaudible--), should that entire review occur before consideration, concurrent or afterwards - it is kind of the chicken and egg thing for some folks, but some of them really don't want to have to bother (inaudible--) land use is approved - (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 17 of 24 Canning: So, do you mean do you want to know what staff's recommendation is Of the design review before it gets to you? Rohm: I think that we have a better feel for where we want or how we want (inaudible-- )? Canning: So, if not an action by staff (inaudible--)? Rohm: Right. Bird: I would agree with that. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: The way our code is written and I might change this (inaudible--) for administrative applications because what it says now is that is there a current application? So, whoever is the higher level is the decision maker based upon (inaudible--). So, for instance if there is a rezone along with a conditional use permit, the Planning and Zoning becomes a fecommending body (inaudible--). Well, on administrative applications we tend to encourage the applicant not to submit (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: If you guys don't have a strong (inaudible--) we will think about what the standards are and think about what to bring back. Siddoway: (I naudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: That is the way that all appeals are written is they are actually called City Council review - so they all know directly (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: I thought about adding - you know if we add the Planning and Zoning (inaud ible--). Rohm: (Inaudible--) then they have the design review from the staff and this is what we (inaudible--) and then that gives us a lot of criteria to say (inaudible--) this CU. Canning: Now, do you want the ability to add to that list? Add and take away from that list or just have it on the list (inaudible--)? Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 18 of 24 Moe: Well, as we have already discussed, we would rather have this be done by staff. I want to see it, but (inaudible--), review what you are suggesting (inaudible--) within that project (inaudible--). Canning: That could get into a messy area - and I didn't want to split that responsibility. So, what we can do is we will write it up so that staff makes a recommendation that you can add to, but if the applicant wants to move any of those then they appeal to City Council. Rohm: I guess though the point that I was trying to make is (inaudible--) for CU's and they are not interested in sharing any of their ideas on what they want to do if they want the CU and I have never felt comfortable in granting without some clear idea of what their intent is (inaudible--). Bird: Well, the problem is the applicant sometimes and David knows is he don't know who is going to be renting or buying this thing, he is just trying to get the CU approved before he can sell the buildings, so he don't really have 100 percent of a know of what he is going to be doing and when you get CU that is what a conditional use is for is to make sure that you get the stuff in there. That is what a CU is for. Rohm: I think going back to the Mayor's comments if they (inaudible--) the design review (inaudible--), like a conditional use permit, once they sell it to the next guy, everything that came with it will go with it too. So, that construction - here is what we approved. Canning: Moving onto the next level of "what ifs"? So, if someone submitted a CU, staff decided it didn't comply with the design guidelines; we inform the Planning and Zoning Commission of that, they agree and they decide (inaudible). (Inaudible--). Okay. The next question on the process was pretty simple - should the future guidelines (inaudible) an alternative compliance for (inaudible)? Work (inaudible--) with landscape, although I have got to tell you, sometimes with some applicants getting the alternative part of the compliance is very difficult. In design review it is a little harder for (inaudible) to make those judgment calls. I am not sure I want alternative compliance, unless you all want me to have it? (Inaudible discussion) Canning: The next ones are just general ones on style preference. (Inaudible--) care if building materials are natural or just appear to be natural because we see very little natural (inaudible--) - does it make a difference to you? (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Okay. One exception might be vinyl siding doesn't really look like (inaudible-- ). Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 19 of 24 Rountree: (Inaudible--). Canning: A lot of industrial and commercial buildings use split phases and is that something that you are generally okay with or you just want to limit it in some areas? (Inaudible discussion) Canning: So what I am hearing is it is not style construction or materials necessarily (inaudible--). Our flat roofs okay because maybe it depends on what kind of building it is - should we move towards (inaudible) gabled roofs in residential and require them there or require flat roofs in some places? (Inaudible discussion) Bird: Why do we worry about the roofs? We are not asked to take care of them. I have seen some beautiful flat roofs. I have seen some beautiful (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Borton: The answer is could be, Anna. Canning: Maybe is what I heard, yes. That is exactly what I got out of that - definitely a maybe. Do you have a preference on colors? Should they be (inaudible) colors? Can they incorporate bright colors (inaudible--)? (Inaudible discussion) Siddoway: (Inaudible--). Even in the roof tones there are some beautiful reds and yellows and (inaudible--). Primary colors (inaudible--). De Weerd: Charlie is color blind. (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: Oh, come on it is like Star and they had that one restaurant there (inaudible-- ). (Inaudible discussion) Nary: Well, as I was saying to Anna a second ago, one of the things, I guess the expectation from our end (inaudible-) was this (inaudible--). I think one of the expectations that I think you folks would want to see is that trends change. What was popular five years ago or ten years ago is not necessarily as popular five years from now. So, I think a lot of these standards may evolve based on the Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 20 of 24 current market, the trends in the industries, you know the things that are popular in one part of the country (inaudible--) and we try to keep up with that in the ordinances so we have things to force and create those standards even if it is a big (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Friedman: That is another kind of enforcement was because it (inaudible) look at colors that have (inaudible) gets back to our threshold, so you have got a number of colors and somebody comes along and repaints it and they can say wait a second, there is no threshold that says I have to go design review (inaudible--). Nary: (Inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Siddoway: (Inaudible--). They do have standards, but they said colors were their biggest and worst headache (inaudible--). Canning: Is there a preference or any thoughts on (inaudible--)? Bird: (Inaud ible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: All right, moving on. (I naudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: That really will go (inaudible--) to the downtown guidelines and not consistency, but some logical sense started that this is (inaudible--). If our guidelines aren't consistent with the franchise or (inaudible), do we want to make allowances for them to incorporate or do we stick to our design guidelines and (inaudible)? (Tape turned over) (Inaudible discussion) Nary: From an enforcement perspective - I mean it is ultimately your folks' decision on that question and if you make that stand on that project is that going to make that person make a business decision elsewhere. I think that belongs (inaudible--). But, I agree with Councilman Rountree, I would be hard pressed to (inaudible--) and if they wanted to be here in the first place because they have to add an (inaudible) roof or flat roof (inaudible--) - they may tell you that but realistically most of them have made that decision, invested the time and the Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 21 of 24 money to get where they are at and you know you are - the first time you get that you know you are likely to hear (inaudible), you set that standard (inaudible) and apply it to (inaudible--) big box corporation doesn't mean that the little guy doesn't the same consideration. So, you are going to have to define (inaudible) and why is this different because every single one of them (inaudible--) we are just like the last guy and you need to have that. I think it is your post decision ultimately, but I would even - I would start getting your mind set around that if you are going to see those what standards do you think would allow you to vary from that? It may be - there may be certain things, you know - McDonald's may not put their corporate arches up 100 feet in the air if they are not allowed to, but they still want golden arches somewhere on their fac;ade and that is something that they made a decision where they have to draw the line. So, those are the thing that I think you folks, as elected officials might be asking those applicants. Tell me exactly where that line is. Bird: (Inaudible --) you have got Wendy's and stores like that that (inaudible--). Nary: Most of the case law really has only come to us in the past, doesn't - have really come down to the city when they try to make (inaudible--). So, just limiting size, height, illumination and those kinds of things, most cities are going to (inaudible) that kind of stuff. So, you know it really is at the end of the day from your folks' seat to be able to figure out what the bottom line is. (Inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: So, the last question that we have is there anything that Council (inaudible--) of design guidelines or the style or something that you really don't care for? (Inaudible--). Is there anything else that we kind of missed talking about that you want to bring up? 4. UDC Revisions & Discussions: Canning: I heard this was on the agenda and I panicked because it was Friday afternoon, so I sent over what I had to Tara, but just in case that is what you were wondering about, but I did not anticipate going through this with you. Borton: Anna, I can tell you it came up and we talked a little bit about it in the agenda meeting and it is not a discussion to hash out (inaudible--). (Inaudible--). I think Anna, you bring it up rightfully, we always get a very pronounced revision and we change it and (inaud ible--). I appreciate what you provided and I think what we wanted to do was have Council and Commission, perhaps in their own time to make a little highlight list. When I look at amendment revisions now and correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like this revision for amendments come from P&Z or property owners. It is not a process that is at Council to start. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 22 of 24 Nary: (Inaudible--). But an individual person can apply for a - you know there is a fee and cost doing that and anyone can ask individuals (inaudible--) and ask for an amendment to the zoning code, but certainly if any of you enforce of this kind, you seem to have the same issue (inaudible) and is problematic (inaudible--) and we identified things as we put it into actual practice - I think Anna tried to (inaudible--) it has to go through the Planning and Zoning Commission and then (inaudible). About every four months or so, three or six or somewhere in that range and we try and lump there together - you know unless there is something really urgent, we lump them together so that we don't waste a lot of time having you know a long hearing in front of the Planning and Zoning Commission (inaudible-- ). Borton: (Inaudible--). Canning: The issue is the shielding for ball field lights. It is possible, it is expensive - if you anticipate that you all approve every appeal for (inaudible) ball field lights, shield it then it would make sense to not have that be a requirement. Borton: So, I guess it is just a discussion item for everyone (inaudible--) and a list of comments for Anna and get that process started. We need to get it cleaned up. Canning: (Inaudible--). What I will do when I bring this back to you - some of this is pure (inaudible--) - some of them are in response to things I have heard like (inaudible) and - (Inaudible discussion) Canning: You don't have to propose something, you can just say hey Anna fix this. Part of the reason they don't happen very often quite frankly (inaudible--). Borton: What kind of timeframe? Canning: Caleb gave me a deadline of last month that I missed. So, the staff is waiting as well. So, I will try and (inaudible--). If ~ou could get stuff to me by the end of this week then I could try and make the 1St cutoff. (Inaudible discussion) 5. Other Matters of Mutual Interest: Borton: Item number five; I am not particularly sure what it applies to. Other matters of mutual interest? Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30, 2007 Page 23 of 24 Canning: You don't get an opportunity to meet with the Planning Commission very often and I didn't know - we put it on there and didn't know if you wanted to talk with Council or- Bird: I just want to say thank you for the job you are doing. You are doing a great job. (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: Mr. President, I guess I just want to make sure that whatever was needed with Keith Borup to continue serving until his seat is filled. We did get a number of letters of interest that I will have Peggy copy for you, Mike and you can take a look and narrow it down. I thought I brought it tonight, but I guess not. So, we have good interests. Hood: We have a workshop with the Commission next Thursday to discuss South Meridian and the Ten Mile Interchange plans - probably be good for potential candidates (inaudible--). De Weerd: Maybe you can come by tomorrow and pick those up and look at them individually. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Council just so you know we are just trying to - the South Meridian has been submitted as an application is based largely on community involvement (inaudible--) sitting down with the Planning Commission to discuss some kind of ideas we have of modification, so maybe we can (inaudible--) and have the Planning Commission to bounce some ideas off of them (inaudible--). De Weerd: Has ACHD looked at (inaudible--) - what are they talking about? Canning: Hopefully they are getting to that analysis - they just came out with a draft transportation plan (inaudible--). Friedman: There was the open house last week and Matt and I were there and it was pretty intense. There were a couple hundred people there; although I can't speak for ACHD, although I saw emails going back and forth and they felt pretty positive about the way the meeting went. I felt very positive about my interaction with a lot of people that were looking at the South Meridian planning. (Inaudible) an hour or two hours, but there were a lot of folks there (inaudible--). Nary: Madame Mayor, you brought up a point on Commissioner Borup's position. Mr. Berg and I haven't had a lot of time to discuss it. I think to be safe because the state code is somewhat silent on the continuation of that position. If Madame Mayor is inclined to temporarily appoint Commission Borup to continue Meridian City Council Joint Meeting January 30,2007 Page 24 of 24 for either till an appointment is made or a permanent P&Z Commissioner is made or for a set period of time, 30 days, with Council's approval, I think that would clear up any question about his presence being there - since the statute doesn't prohibit us from temporarily appointing folks, it doesn't have anything about that, but just so there is not a question of him being there and not having a quorum, he will continue. I don't there is any CU application (inaudible--). That would probably be the safest route - (inaudible--). I heard that Commissioner Siddoway won't be there and in case they have any other issues (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: (Inaudible--). If there is no objection, I would ask your approval of continuing the appointment of Keith Borup until that seat is filled (inaudible--). Bird: So moved. Rountree: Second. De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Mr. Berg, will you please call roll? Roll Call Vote: Bird, aye; Rountree, aye; Borton, aye; Zaremba is absent. THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Bird: I move we adjourn. Rountree: Second. Borton: It has been moved and seconded to adjourn. All those in favor. ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. MEETING AJOURNED AT 7:59 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) TAMMY D 4-/$/07 DATE APPROVED \ \ \ "" H II' II"~"~ \\\ rrS:.. ~" ,\\ -1 V . II~ ,..........:" :-\" J'Jf~ :;: .... Ct /' ~('J.'2 A ~ ~ :::- .J::.r' . -, ~ rA'- ~ ........ ~... ~~ .... ::: '" v::. i J\ITES 0:: ~ 8r:.AL WILLIAM G. 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