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HomeMy WebLinkAboutDecember 5, 2002 Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 10of74 Ketlinski: I think they are in the area of impact. Borup: Are they still in Ada County city limits of Boise? Centers: That's the way I read it. Borup: That surprises me. Zaremba: Well, I don't think we will ever get them back if they are actually in the city, but -- Borup: Okay. Yes. If it's in the city limits, then, I think so. I think it's -- I was assuming it was just area of impact. Ketlinski: I think it was three years ago. I'm not sure now. I can't -- Borup: Okay. That's for them to research. Thank you. Do we have anyone else on this? Okay. Seeing none, Commissioners? Zaremba: Mr. Chairman, I move the Public Hearing be closed. Rohm: Second. Borup: Motion and second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Centers: Mr. Chairman, I would recommend approval of Item 5 on our agenda, Public Hearing MI 02-009, request for adjustment of area of impact between the cities of Meridian and Boise in an RUT zone for Winston Moore by Winston Moore, northwest corner of North Eagle Road and East Ustick Road, with applicable staff comments. Mathes: Second. Zaremba: Motion and second. All in favor? Anyopposed? Thank you. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 6. Public Hearing: MI 02-011 Request to remove certain parcels in Dunbar Estates Subdivision from City of Meridian's area of impact for Packard Estates Dev., LLC by Packard Estates Dev., LLC - south of East Ustick Road and west of North Cloverdale Road: Borup: The next item is Public Hearing MI 02-011, request to remove certain parcels in Dunbar Estates Subdivision from the City of Meridian's area of impact for Packard Estates Development, LLC. They are trying to do just the opposite. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 11 0174 Rohm: That's going to be a little tougher. Borup: We'd like to open this Public Hearing at this time and start with the staff report. Siddoway: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. As Chairman Borup rightly says, this one is just the opposite of what we just went through. It is -- it also is an area of impact adjustment, but in this case they are requesting that the area encircled on the screen be allowed to be removed from the City 0 f Meridian area 0 f impact and go to the City of Boise. It consists of 75.8 acres that would be taken out of Meridian and given to Boise if it were approved. A lot of the issue and the reason for this application, as I understand it -- I will let the applicant make his own presentation on that, but it has to do with the availability of city services. The City of Boise, apparently, currently has water and sewer in Ustick Road, as well as Cloverdale Road, and a sewer trunk is being installed in the parcels to the east. The City of Meridian domestic water supply also exists in Ustick Road and stops about 450 feet shy of Duane Drive, which is this road right here. Sanitary sewer for this project is still currently west of Eagle Road. There is a project under way to extend sewer, so that it's available to the east side of Eagle Road. That project is on schedule to be completed by spring of 2003. You should have a -- Borup: Go to what point in 2003? Siddoway: I was just looking to see if I had a better vicinity map. Where it will be at the end of that project, it doesn't show here, but -- okay. I'm going to let Bruce tell you. Freckleton: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, the South Slough Sewer Trunk line that I spoke of with the last application is the same sewer trunk that would serve this area. That trunk project that is under construction will extend sewer under Eagle Road -- to the east side of Eagle Road is where the project limits stop. It's approximately -- unfortunately, the map on the wall doesn't -- Borup: Well, that's fine it stops at Eagle Road, on the east side of Eagle Road. Freckleton: Correct. We are going to be boring under Eagle Road and then we will stop on the east side, so -- Borup: That's right there at the South Slough? Freckleton: Yes. Borup: Or are they going through -- are they going down the Sough Slough or down the street to Carol Sub? Freckleton: It comes out to -- into Carol Sub and Leslie Drive and will extend out to Eagle Road at that location. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 120174 Borup: Okay. Zaremba: Mr. Chairman. Bruce, is Wal-Mart being served now? Freckleton: Wal-Mart? Borup: Wal-Mart is a mile away. Freckleton: Wal-Mart is clear down to Fairview. We are a mile north. This is Ustick Road. Zaremba: Oh, Ustick. I'm sorry. Borup: Did you have anything else, Steve? Siddoway: I would just point out that you should have a staff report on this one hot off the press, dated today, December 5th, from Brad Hawkins-Clark and Bruce. The only things I feel to point out in there -- on the second page of that report, near the bottom, is a section called application findings. In the Meridian City Code, while it doesn't specifically address required findings for area of impact changes, it does site three factors in defining the area of city impact itself. Those three factors are, one, trading area, two geographic factors, and, three, areas that can reasonably be expected to be annexed in the future. On the next page, Brad goes through each of those one by one and the summary of that is there in the middle of Page 3, where two of the above findings and C can be found in favor the City of Meridian. B, which is the geographic, is neutral, because it is adjacent to Boise, aswell as Meridian. It's right on the edge. Under the additional considerations it talks, again, about the ability to serve the property with urban services. The main road block is -- for developing this property would be, one, a nnexation route, because it's currently not contiguous with city I imits a nd, two, securing a route to bring the sewer from Eagle Road over to this parcel. The staff recommendation on the last page is for denial. We don't feel that there is strong enough evidence to remove these 75 acres from the City of Meridian's area of impact. We would recommend that it remain in our area of impact. The city will be able to offer services within the required 10 years, as stipulated by Ada County, and likely much much sooner than that. We have an amended boundary description for this that I'm going to put up now that was just handed to us. Okay. The area outlined in orange there is apparently the proper request. I believe that as it was submitted it included this parcel in its description of -- I would also point out that with -- by taking this area out and not these, it creates a little island of Meridian city impact that's all by itself, surrounded by Boise City. With that, I will stand for any questions. Rohm: Mr. Chairman, I have a question for staff back to this development of the water and sewer. I would assume that the City of Meridian has moved forward with a development based upon the annexation of this parcel at some point in time down the road. If, in fact, the trunk route is capable of handling that, then, it seems like that Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 13 of 74 capacity would potentially be wasted if it weren't tied in at some point in time down the road. Is that a correct assumption? Freckleton: Commissioner Rohm, Members of the Commission that is true. The City of Meridian hired consultants several years ago to prepare Master Facility Plans for the city. Those plans basically looked at the entire urban service planning boundaries and tried to determine the routes for sewer and trunk lines and sizing of the mains to take in the service areas of, you know, the properties that would be going to those certain mains. Yes, you're entirely correct. The main sizing is there for that and -- Rohm: Well, that's the purpose of having these in the first place, so you can plan for your future development, and it would -- it seems like it wouldn't be in good keeping to change it at this stage of the game. Centers: Mr. Chairman? Borup: Commissioner Centers. Centers: This parcel, is that Mittleider? Because I had a letter in my packet, Mittleider, and the applicant will probably address it, where he's saying, hey -- Borup: That's what I was wondering, too. It might be the other comer down there. Centers: Okay so Mittleider is not included. Okay. I have a question, also, Steve. In Brad's summary where he considers trade area, geographic factors, areas that can reasonably be expected to be annexed in the future, he's saying that he finds A and C part of that equation and it can be found in favor of the City of Meridian. Siddoway: Correct. Centers: C is areas that can reasonably be expected to be annexed in the future. Siddoway: Correct. Centers: How far is this property from the City of Meridian because you talk in your comments about other property owners that may want to be annexed in the future? How long -- or not how long, that's -- who in the heck knows. How many properties are in between there? Siddoway: Currently, the closest city limits is that Stokesberry Subdivision on that office park that's in front of River Valley Elementary on the west side of Eagle Road. We have city limits that come over to Eagle Road, but not east of Eagle Road, because it's currently not sewerable. That is supposed to change by spring of next year. Centers: Well, that still doesn't answer it, because, you know, I can see where you're talking about, but I guess the best question would be how many property owners are Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 140174 involved between this property and the city? I got to think that, C, as Bradley Hawkins- Clark is addressing, is hypothetical. He has no idea when those properties will be taken into the city or even if they want to be and for this property to sit there -- anyway, go ahead. Siddoway: The left side of this map would be Eagle -- yes, Eagle Road. This is Ustick. Current city limits come over to this area adjacent to Stokesberry. Centers: Is this a quarter section right here so that's a quarter mile? Siddoway: Yes that's a half-mile. Centers: That's a half-mile. Okay. Siddoway: Yes this would be Cloverdale so it's on the half mile. You know, if this parcel and this parcel came in, there are two to get to here. Of course, we just learned that this one is not really in but it depends on the annexation route. It could be a few it could be several. Centers: Well, I guess that's my point. I don't agree with Mr. Clark that it can be reasonably expected to be annexed in the future, because it all depends on these people. Siddoway: Well, it-- Centers: And I don't think Mr. Clark went out and talked to those people and said, you know, do you have plans for development here. It could be 10 years it could be 20. It could be two. I agree but I don't think we can sit here and say that it's going to happen soon. Go ahead. Borup: Well, I think there is some interest on some of these. I can see that soon. It's when you get further east that -- Freckleton: Commissioner Centers -- Centers: Let me finish one thing while I'm on the thought process here. In the last application we gave a will serve. Why couldn't we do the same thing here or consider the same thing? By the summer of '03 you say you will. Siddoway: The will-serve letter means that we will provide services once it's contiguous and able to be annexed. This already has that agreement in place by definition of being in the area of impact so it has that. Centers: Could you do a will serve and will provide? I'm with you, I hate to see it leave the city, but if we are going to have services there, why can't we agree to provide them? Does it have to be in the city, Mr. Chairman? I don't know. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 150174 Borup: To provide services? Centers: Yes. Borup: Well, that's been our policy. We do have a couple of projects that are outside the city, but that gets into the precedence that -- and some of the problems that Boise has. Zaremba: In a previous meeting when we discussed a requested amendment to the urban services area in the Comprehensive Plan, it was this kind of subject. If there was a leap frog development, the Comprehensive Plan says that their utilities have to be connectable, but not necessarily connected, so that when we eventually are annexed to that point, that they be brought into our service area under our quality standards. That was the statement in the Comprehensive Plan that we discussed pretty thoroughly. Borup: Well, I think besides the annexation path, there also needs to be a sewer path that's feasible. Okay. Anything else? Did you have -- you were done? Siddoway: I'm done. Mathes: Steve, I have a question. Is that the soccer field on the corner? Siddoway: It is. Yes. Mathes: So they could go up that direction? Siddoway: Yes. Well-- Borup: No. Mathes: The soccer field is not sewered yet? Siddoway: Yes, it is contiguous with the ShopKo Subdivision. Meridian Crossroads so that is a possibility, too. Yes. Yes. I should clarify that is a possibility for an annexation route, while the sewer would still have to come from the west, not the south. Borup: Okay. Centers: And is this City of Boise right here? Siddoway: Yes. Mathes: Can you go from two different ways, sewer going one -- as long as it's contiguous with the city? If the whole property gets developed, is that going to be on a different sewer line? If annexation is from this comer, but sewers from that corner, does it all go -- get all the rules? Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 160174 Freckleton: If the annexation route is through the Criner property on the corner, sewer would still need to come out to this line that's being stubbed to the west -- to the east side of Eagle Road. This property on the corner, that's where it's going to be sewered to as well. Mathes: Oh. Okay. Freckleton: Yes. One thing I did want to point out, this is the Caven property right here that you met on a few months ago. We have had several inquiries from people about this property. The Winston Moore property is right here that you heard about. I spoke of another piece that's next to Winston's piece that is a future development. My point is there is a lot of interest and activity happening out in this area, although applications have not been formally filed for them, because what we are -- they have to happen in consecutive order, the contiguity, but I do -- yes, I definitely agree with Brad's statement that it's reasonable to assume that it will happen real soon. Mathes: Where is Summers at? Freckleton: It's right -- what, one of these, isn't it? Borup: Right there. Yes. Mathes: It's not city yet? Freckleton: It's not city yet, but it is served by city water. Mathes: Okay. Freckleton: One other -- if I could. One other thing I did want to point out is in my staff comments on page -- on Page 3, under additional considerations, where I talk about Public Works Departments from both Boise City and Meridian City have met. The plan that I spoke of earlier, our Facility Plan that we developed, in answer to your question, Commissioner Rohm, both Boise City and Meridian City are looking at our Facility Plans as to how can both cities serve certain parcels on our entire common boundary from Chinden Road all the way down south of Victory. What the intent is is for our staffs to basically come up with a line that is not just a line in the sand, but it is a line that both cities can serve per their Facility Plans that have been developed over the -- you know, for their systems, their sewer and water system. What our proposal would be that once our staffs agree on a line, a logical line, that one application would be filed for adjustment of our common line between us and Boise, take care of this once and for all, so that we are not back in here with each of these individual parcels with several other applications, we will do it one time. Zaremba: Are you finding that that's a decision-making process or are you finding places where geographically the slope requires it to go one way or the other? Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 17 of 74 Freckleton: We are finding that it is a geographic -- yes. Definitely most definitely there are parcels that really don't make a lot of sense being in Meridian and there is parcels that don't make a lot of sense being in Boise, so -- Zaremba: Based on geographies? Freckleton: Geographies. Zaremba: Elevation. Freckleton: Exactly. Borup: So is there any type of time frame on that understanding between the cities? mean is it going ahead or -- Freckleton: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, I don't have a solid time line. However, this is a subject that has caught a lot of attention from members of our City Council and the authorities with Boise City as well. I think there is some mutual interest in getting it done. Borup: Okay. I just wonder if it's one of those things that are going to take 10 years or sooner. Any other questions from the Commission? Are we ready to move on? Would the applicant like to -- apparently you do have some presentation you'd like to make. Bowcutt: Becky Bowcutt, 1100 East Valli-Hi, Eagle. I'm representing the applicants in this matter. For the record, I did not prepare this application, nor did I submit this application to the City of Meridian. I was approached a couple of weeks ago by the applicants, asking if I would take this project up, represent them at this hearing and see if I could clarify some of these issues. First up, as Bruce and Steve indicated, the map as submitted with the application is in error. It is incorrect. There were two properties that were included in the map. Somebody inadvertently at a particular engineering firm just drew the line and squared it up and made it look nice and that is not correct. One property is owned by the S mitchgers, it's a 0 ne-acre parcel located on Ustick Road. The other property is this five acre parcel located in the southwest corner of the one that you received the letter on from the -- the Mittleiders, is that how you say that? Mittleiders. I want tog 0 0 n the record that those two properties are not part of this application. Those owners did not consent to being a part of this so I don't want any confusion to take place. Area of impact is a difficult thing. In 1990, I worked at Ada County Development Services and Ada County was the mediator between the City of Meridian and the City of Boise on where to draw these impact boundary lines. As you well know, when those lines are drawn, that city is assuming responsibility for providing at some point in the future serviceability with sewer and water, that they have the other services that can handle that particular property or development of that property. I asked at one point in time when I worked at Ada County why didn't you pick a roadway like Cloverdale Road, why would you go one quarter mile west and draw this arbitrary line that may -- and most generally separates properties which are owned by the same Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 18of74 party? And they said because we did not want Boise City mains and Meridian City mains, sewer mains that is, both in the right of way, it's too difficult. They said that's why we picked this one-quarter mile and we said, now, topographically we think that we can serve over here in the City of Meridian and then the City of Boise serving onto the west Boise Sewer Plan. I'd like to show these aerials. It kind of gives you an idea of what's out there now. The applicants had these taken. The subject property is here in red and this is correct showing those two parcels that were erroneously included outside. As you can see, this Dawson Subdivision is right at that one-quarter mile. My clients own this 20 acres right here that is in Boise's area of impact and fronts on Cloverdale Road and then they also own to the west and then over here in a northwest direction. As you can see, the City of Boise, here is downtown, here is Fairview Avenue, and you can see how the city has grown out. This is Cloverdale Nursery, which is one of the last few remaining open areas. This parcel here at the corner of Ustick and Cloverdale and here you can see Boise on the north side of Ustick, how it's grown out. Then everything seems to come to a screeching halt at that one-quarter mile line. If you look at this other aerial photo, this gives you a good idea of the City of Meridian. You're looking west. This would be north. Here is Ustick. Heather Glen Meadows. Here is the Summers Funeral Home you can see. Here is our subject property outlined in red and you can see how the City of Meridian has grown and you can follow-- Borup: I think you just pointed out the grade school when you said Summers. Bowcutt: Oh. Is that the grade school? Borup: Well, no, next to - Bowcutt: Oh, you're right. Sorry. I'm sorry. It's there. Good point. That's a church. That's a new church. That threw me off. Borup: Okay. Bowcutt: There is a grade school. That's anew church facility. Summers is down there. I apologize but you can see the city limits. This is Summerfield so right now your city limits are right here at the eastern boundary of Summerfield, which is approximately one half mile west of the intersection of Eagle Road and Ustick. Then, as Steve indicated, the city limits are down at that school on Eagle Road, I believe right down in this location there. This aerial photo was taken I think about a week ago, so it is current, and it gives you a real good idea of what's out there. I'd like these submitted into the record. We met with the City of Boise, John Johnson, one of the City Engineers, and we spoke with him about the possibility of sewering this property. For the record, there is an existing Boise City sewer main, it's about -- it's approximately 14 feet deep right in front of this subject property. It's a 15-inch line, transitions to the east into a 10-inch line. He went through and looked at the elevations from aerial photos that they had taken when they do their sewer planning to evaluate the possibility of sewering this and he realizes this is a political question. This is not an engineering question, but Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 19 01 74 more a political question, when we look at something along this line of excluding from an area of impact. He's extended these lines, as you can see he wrote down inverts and it was his determination that there is a break line where this northern portion would go out to the Ustick Trunk and then the southern portion. T he southeastern portion would go into a trunk line that's located over here that is -- goes out to Cloverdale Road. When we look at a map of this property, it's very unusual in the fact that it's almost an island surrounded by what we call estate-type residential. These were acre lot subdivisions that were approved in the county years ago most of them are on septic and well. This is the Perkins-Brown a long t hat western boundary 0 ver here. Here is the Boise area of impact. We have Briarwood. This is Dawson Subdivision, that's the one that you see in the aerial photo that's under construction here and then to the south of us this is Clover Meadows. This is a new development here, Autumn Leaf, that came in a few years ago and this property would sewer -- they stubbed here and the portions that's in Boise's area of impact would sewer into this stub street and then this southern portion would sewer here up to this zig line. This ziggy line is kind of a break in topography. Everything would go north to that trunk everything would go south into this eight-inch trunk line there. When we -- we had the engineer for the applicant take a look at the possibility of -- the possibility of -- I have got too many drawings. The possibility of when Meridian sewer is extended what -- what would that do to the property. Well, you got your South Slough Trunk running, it will come and bed bored to the east side of Eagle Road. Based on the preliminary determination of the applicant's engineer, the trunk would have to be extended down Ustick to this northem portion or the northern 37 acres and then this would flow but the southern portion could not flow into that line. Now, you have to extend along the South Slough the other trunk that you're bringing across and boring here at Eagle Road, extend that up, somehow get through this unrelated parcel, somehow get through the Mittleider's parcel here to get to this parcel. It would basically have to come from two directions and that's based on the preliminary information that I received this evening from the engineer so that does cause a problem. We start looking at, from a cost perspective, how can we cost effectively service these properties. That was never considered when they drew that line at the one-quarter mile. Nobody ever considered it. If you look at your land use planning map, you can see that there is kind of a zigzag through here where areas were deleted and went to Boise based on the ability of Boise City to provide sewer and the inability of Meridian to provide sewer. It wasn't based on just timing, but it was also based on topography. I did this area of impact adjustment where we removed that from the Meridian's impact area when I did Cameron Park, Madison Park, and I did The Legends. I have done a lot of projects over here on this McMillan, Eagle Road corridor. Down here, you can see the line comes -- and it's nice and straight and then it kind of zigs out. Well, that's Edgeview Estates and I did an area of impact adjustment there that was one of my projects. Then it zigs over here and that's Ironwood and I did an area of impact adjustment there, and it was due to topography. That's the Ridenbaugh Canal and nobody ever thought when they drew that line that that Ridenbaugh Canal would prohibit the ability for this to sewer to the west to Meridian and the majority of those properties at that time lied within the City of Boise's area of impact. The line is not -- I guess my point is the line is not hard and fast and to just on a map arbitrarily draw a line one quarter mile without consideration of topography at times and ownership, Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 20 0174 makes it difficult. We would like - we know that the ultimate decision is up to the Council, because it's a political issue, but we'd like you to take into consideration, because your opinion is important to us also, that there are circumstances that are unique to certain properties in certain areas. Boise has, obviously, released some property in the application that was before us. Their staff has indicated to me there is property at -- I believe it's the northwest corner of Overland and Cloverdale, which they determine they cannot service - is it southwest? Southwest. I stand corrected -- so that they would be interested in giving that to the City of Meridian. They are not always looking to just to take. I think we are passed the '90s when it was a turf war. We had two cities butting heads, vying for area for future growth, and when we look at the map, we -- I have been spending most of my time working on North Meridian and, as you can see, that North Meridian area -- this is your area of impact to the northwest. It is wide open. One of the arguments you guys had with the Caven area of impact removal application, which, by the way, I did put on hold. We intend to most likely withdraw that application, because I convinced my clients under the circumstances of that property it was best they stay in Meridian. In that case, you guys focused on the fact that that was going to be highway commercial, a high dollar generating development, which is absolutely correct. Here we are talking single-family development. On your Comprehensive Plan it's designated medium density residential. On Boise City's Comprehensive Plan adjoining it is low density residential. Residential. Sorry. We are not talking those high tax dollars like was argued with that 40 acres there on that northeast corner of Eagle Road and Ustick, we are talking residential. It is always difficult for a planner to take a piece of property that is split between two jurisdictions and try to plan, because we are always looking at it from -- we are dealing with two different types of standards, two different types of priorities and Comp Plans, two different Public Works. It has been done, but it is not preferred. We think that it makes sense that this go to Boise. As you can see from the aerial photos, the majority of that development out there is the City of Boise. Meridian has got a lot of land to be developed Boise, there in that west area, they are definitely running skinny. We have kind of chewed up most of that land over the past I would say 10 years. I will stand for questions. Borup: Questions from the Commission? Rohm: Good presentation. Good job. Borup: I have got one. You were talking about the sewer feasibility. How accurate was that? Do you know how much time was spent on that? I realize -- I mean it's very preliminary, but you said it wasn't feasible to sewer. Could you expand on that a little bit more? Bowcutt: Okay. I think what I was getting at is it is feasible, but -- Borup: Well, you said it would have to be split, but you said -- Bowcutt: Split. Right. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 21 of 74 Borup: -- you can't service the whole parcel with one line. Bowcutt: With one trunk that is correct. That information -- I believe they have been working on it for approximately one week. Call it -- I call it preliminary information, because I have not provided that information to your staff for them and, typically I like to provide the information to your staff to also look at their data and see if everything is correct. Borup: So you're saying any -- there is not enough depth with a single trunk line, either one? Bowcutt: That is correct for one line to service the entire property, which lies within the Meridian impact area. Based on their preliminary study, we would have to bring a line down the North Slough, somehow get easements across these properties, easements across that property, and get into here. Then it could only service about up to this mid point, then we would have to extend sewer in Ustick Road down to this northern parcel, and only this parcel can go that direction. That's the data that I have received today right before the hearing. That's why I call it preliminary, because I have not had time to confirm it, and, like I said, provide that information to your staff for their review also. Borup: I'm sure they'd like to review it. All right. Thank you. Bowcutt: And the cost for extending the line along this slough is between 300 and 375,000. That's just for the one trunk. That does not include the Ustick extension. Freckleton: Mr. Chairman if I could ask a question, just for clarification for my own use. Becky, didn't you say that Boise City's line couldn't serve the one trunk either basically it had to split, part north, part south? Bowcutt: It splits north and south, but both trunks are right there adjoining the property. Yes, sir. That is correct. Borup: So this would be one of those situations where there would be trunk lines in two jurisdictions in the same area if it came down Ustick? Bowcutt: It's already in Ustick. Borup: I mean if Meridian's came down Ustick. Bowcutt: Yes, sir. Borup: That's what I'm talking about. Bowcutt: Yes. Borup: Two trunk lines in the same right of way. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 22 01 74 Bowcutt: Yes. There is United Water and Boise City sewer in Ustick at this time across the frontage of this property. Borup: It goes to the grade school? Bowcutt: It goes over the Heather Glen Meadows. Borup: Oh, clear to Heather Glen. Okay. Bowcutt: And so, yes, we would have to find a corridor in Ustick to extend your water and sewer also and I don't know how you do that. I have never had to do that before. Freckleton: We currently parallel United Water in Ustick Road with the water line. Borup: Okay. Thank you. Bowcutt: Thank you. Borup: Do we have anyone else that would like to testify? Come on up. Smitchger: I am Virgil Smitchger, 4350 East Ustick. This is my 40 and seven years ago -- it's in the Meridian minutes -- Boise would not take this, because they couldn't serve it with sewer. Borup: How many years ago? Smitchger: Seven years ago about. They took the other side of the road in, but they left my place out. It was the only one that got left out. Borup: Okay. Is the subdivision across the road? Smitchger: Yes. Borup: It's on sewer, isn't it? Smitchger: Yes and they said they couldn't serve me and that was when Kingsford was in here. I don't know, I just -- I can't believe they can't bring that from the back, the way that land slopes. My water comes towards Ustick Road, everything irrigates that way, and the back part isn't much lower than I am, that adjoins me on the back, so all I can say is I would like to stay in Meridian. That's what I would like to see. Rohm: Which parcel is yours again, sir? Smitchger: This 40 on the top. Mine is right there and then this three acres that-- Borup: So at this time you do not have city sewer is that correct? Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 23 01 74 Smitchger: Pardon? No. Borup: You're on a septic tank? Smitchger: Yes. I got a septic and my own well and I got my own water from Nampa- Meridian on my acre, so if they subdivide, they are going to have to provide me water for a quarter of a mile to get the water to me somehow. Okay. I guess that's all, but I did -- I fought it pretty hard and Boise said they couldn't take us, the engineers. Thank you. Borup: Thank you. Freckleton: Mr. Chairman? Could I -- Borup: Mr. Freckleton. Freckleton: -- make a point here? This application excludes these parcels. These parcels are currently in our area of impact. If this application were granted those parcels would be Meridian, this would be Boise. Boise is across the road. We would be -- this would be an island of Meridian here inside Boise's area of impact. Getting city services -- Meridian City services to this island isn't going to happen. It creates a real problem when we have -- when we are trying to create -- we are going to create an island of Meridian inside of Boise. I don't think we can do it. Rohm: Well, I think you'd just end up having to vacate that as well, don't you think, Bruce? Borup: Do we have anyone else to testify? Come on up, sir. Belcher: My name is Art Belcher, 2920 Duane Drive, Meridian. Our property would adjoin Boise if this goes through. I live in one of these two and a half acre parcels to the west there. I would much rather see this stay in Meridian, than go to Boise. I'm concerned about the density. The lady that did the presentation said that Boise would have low-density housing in that area. The property that's under development now on that 20 acres has 80 some sewer hookups marked out. That's four to the acre and if this other goes in, that's another 400 and some houses. We would be looking at, on the whole thing, with the other 40 on the east and we have 460 homes at four homes to the acre. When you break out 25 percent for roads and sidewalks and everything else, it gets pretty dense to be up against our property. Thank you. Borup: Thank you. Grant: My name is Elvina Grant. I live at 2525 North Cloverdale. My parents have owned some of the property since the 1930s and the rest of it since 1955, which my brother and I and our spouses now have. Our desire is to have sold our property in one parcel -- in one sale to one party. Can the city provide city utilities, sewer, and water, to Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 24 0174 the entire site without demanding annexation to other landowners? Our farms are our retirement and the time has come for us to start this process. Thank you. Borup: Do we have anyone else that would like to come forward? Becky, did you have any final comments? Maybe 0 ne thing if you could clarify the differences in density designations between the two cities. You said Meridian was medium density Boise was low density? Bowcutt: Yes. Low density and the Boise Comprehensive Plan is a maximum of four dwelling units per acre. Your medium density is four to eight is that not correct, Steve? Do you recall four to eight? Siddoway: Three to eight. Bowcutt: Three to eight so it's a range, whereas Boise puts a cap. I just want to - Borup: So going to Meridian could end up being denser than Boise. Bowcutt: Yes, sir. Borup: Possibly. Bowcutt: Possibly because Boise has a four cap. One thing I forgot to mention, that the question arose when the city designs these trunk lines, Meridian that is, they size them as far as planning for future service to properties. Brad Watson, the City Engineer, indicated to me that your design standard is to handle 3.5 dwelling units per acre. In the North Meridian Plan, with the input from Smart Grow and some other agencies, they are trying to push us to four to eight dwelling units per acre in some projects and they are trying to boost our density. One of the questions that were asked of Brad Watson in one of the roundtable discussions is is there capacity in these trunks and in the treatment plant if we try to boost and maximize our density to promote commuter ride and mass transit? The answer was probably not, not if they are boosting them up to eight dwelling units per acre. That is something to keep in mind, that they are designing these at 3.5. I did ask the City Engineer for Boise do they have capacity to service this development and he indicated yes. Rohm: What changed? This gentleman back here that testified a little bit ago, said that when he requested annexation for consideration some time ago, Boise City said they didn't want it. Isn't that kind of - Borup: Well. he said they couldn't sewer it. Rohm: Just a question. Bowcutt: Well, over time they extended the east and west Eagle Road trunks. I worked on those projects where we took those out of the plant, up the bench, across Chinden, Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5. 2002 Page 25 01 74 and there is a west line and an east line. There used to be a bottleneck at Hewlett- Packard in the trunk that went through there and then dropped down the bench, but when they took that other -- those Eagle Road trunks out at the bench, then that added capacity. At one point in time he's probably correct, they did not have capacity to service this property, because of the bottleneck at Hewlett-Packard. In fact, I was told the line was surcharged and that it could not handle anything until we brought those Eagle Road trunks on line. This was in the mid '90s to late '90s. Mid '90s, I guess. Borup: Okay. Does that conclude your comments? Bowcutt: Yes. Thank you. Borup: All right. Thank you. Commissioners, discussion? Reagan: Hi. I'm Sharon Reagan. I live at 12499 Briarwood Drive. Zaremba: Would you raise the microphone up, please? Reagan: I live at 12499 Briarwood Drive. Zaremba: Your name. Reagan: Sharon Reagan. Borup: This is Briarwood here? Reagan: Right and we were part of the -- like you folks that got forced into Boise and our taxes go up to four percent for nothing. I'm really curious about how they are going to access the property, if they are going to come through our street, which is a dead end. Borup: At this point they don't have a project they are proposing, but they own this property right here. Or here. I'm sorry. Right. This is where that other subdivision is. I'm sorry. They own this property right here, so they would have access to Cloverdale right here and to Ustick up there. Reagan: I was just curious. I didn't know if there was any proposal or anything, but -- Borup: Some of that may depend on the design, what ACHD wants to be happening. Reagan: Okay. Thank you. That's what I was curious about. Thank you. Borup: Did I state that properly? Centers: Mr. Chairman, I would move we close the Public Hearing. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 26 of 74 Zaremba: Second. Borup: Motion and second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Zaremba: I read through the materials. I came prepared to be dead set against this. Mrs. Bowcutt has put together in apparently what was only two weeks a tremendous presentation and I could easily be swayed to flip. I can see the logic and I'm generally against giving up Meridian area of impact for any use, but I can see the logic for this one and I could be convinced. Centers: Mr. Chairman, I felt the same way and, actually, now I'm on the fence here and as Mrs. Bowcutt stated, she wants our support. The final decision is by the Council. I think that's going to be a hard, hard sell for the Council to release these 75 acres. Whether we support it or deny it, the big sell is to the Council and she knows that. I think she's going to go right home or tomorrow morning get a hold of that engineer and get it in writing that the sewer cannot be serviced to this property and presented to the City Council am I right or wrong? That's the ammunition, because if we can't provide service, we should release it, whether t hey want to put sewer -- or septic tanks and wells, but if we can't provide service within ten years, we should release it. Isn't that the way it reads, 10 years? Yet, I think that's the hard sell to the City Council, too. You're going to have one little acre there right surrounded and landlocked two or four whatever but landlocked by Boise and Meridian and they are sitting in that county, so 1-- Borup: We have that right now. Centers: Yes in the middle of town. Yes. My big thing is I hate to see property sit, I hate to see people that want to sell it to developers not be able to. I think -- I don't want to use an adjective here, but I think that's wrong. I think they should be able to develop it if services are available. Now, if the City of Meridian can provide services and say that we will be there -- but, then, how can we say we are going to be annexing that in one, two, three, four, five years? I don't know. As I said, I think the hard sell is to the Council. I would tend to agree with Commissioner Zaremba, I had no feelings before I came to the hearing. I read the entire notes. The only problem I had was Mr. Mittleider being included and he wasn't, so that was revised. Borup: Yes. Centers: So I guess I would tend to support the application. Borup: Any other comments? Mathes: What happens to the little island? Does it just stay in the county? Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 27 0174 Borup: Until it's either -- under five acres, it could be forced annexation, but it wouldn't be to Meridian, though. Centers: They can apply, though, can't they, Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: As I understand the process, even if we -- Borup: No, not to Meridian, to Boise. Zaremba: If we recommend approval of this change to the City Council and the City Council SUbsequently approves the change, then, under the auspices of the Ada County Commissioners, Boise and Meridian sit down and work out what the line is going to be and they would make that decision, I would assume. Is that correct? Siddoway: It would be the line that's being talked about. The problem is that that area, unlike the holes in our city limits that are currently Ada County, which I think Chairman Borup were referring to. This would be -- this is different. This is the City of Boise in the middle of -- well, what would be the City of Meridian, but there would be no way to get city services there. I would say you could not, you know, take this area out without also taking those out. Borup: Yes. That's just logical. It would be an island in Boise, not Meridian, it would stay county and it would make sense to take it out at the same time. Mathes: Sowhat happens if they don't want to go? Borup: Then they stay in the county. Centers: Yes but, understand, it's -- excuse me. All you're doing is taking them out of the air of impact. You're not putting them in one city or the other. Mathes: They could stay in the county forever right? Centers: Exactly. Borup: No. Not necessarily. Boise could force -- Centers: Right. Borup: I came with the same -- kind of the same thoughts that Commissioner Zaremba and probably the one biggest fact to me is the sewerability. I mean they are looking at 10,000 -- I mean it could be 10,000 dollars an acre just to bring sewer into the property, which does not seem real feasible. Running the parallel trunk line down Ustick to a Boise Trunk doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either. Then an annexation path and a right of way for the sewer are also in question. Meridian Planning & Zoning December 5, 2002 Page 28 01 74 Centers: Well, I don't know if this is true or not, but an ex-P&Z Commissioner here in the City of Meridian that had been on the Commission for some time, quoted to me that with a 1,400 square foot home, the City of Meridian broke even after providing services and t he receipt 0 f t he t axes, with a 1 ,400 square foot home at that time. That was probably 1 0 years a go. I think Mrs. B owcutt makes a good point, tax revenue from residential properties doesn't make the city rich, after they provide services, so -- and I guess the other comment, political, that's a big part of it, too. Anyway-- Borup: I think somebody's City Council is going to have to really hash it out. Zaremba: Well, the two choices would be to forward this to the City Council and I'm inclined to do so, you know -- well, the other option is to continue it until we hear the evidence of the engineering studies. I'm more inclined to move it ahead and at this point I'm in favor of approval. Centers: I thought of that, too. You know, I hate to bring back your study, but then the study really is more applicable to City Council. Zaremba: They are the final word. Centers: So let's move on. Zaremba: Have we closed the Public Hearing? Borup: Yes. Zaremba: Okay. Mr. Chairman, I move that we approve the request to remove certain parcels in -- this is M I 02-011, that we forward to the City Council recommending approval of the request to remove certain parcels in Dunbar Estates Subdivision from City of Meridian's impact area for Packard Estates Development, LLC, by Packard Estates Development, LLC, south of East Ustick Road and west of North Cloverdale Road. Centers: Second. Borup: Motion and second. Any discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? Rohm: Naye. Borup: Okay. Three in favor, one opposed. Thank you. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE NAYE. Item 7. Public Hearing: CUP 02-039 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a Care Center for up to 30 mildly ill children, ages two to ten years, staffed by nurses and certified nurses a ssistants for S nifties 'n Sneezes Care