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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2006 11-14 Pre Meridian City Pre-Council Meetina November 14, 2006 The Meridian City Pre-Council meeting was called to order at 5:30 P.M. on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 by President Councilman Shaun Wardle. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle and Charlie Rountree. Members Absent: Joe Borton. Staff Present: Bill Nary, Bill Musser and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: Roll call. X Shaun Wardle X Charlie Rountree X o Joe Borton X Keith Bird Mayor Tammy de Weerd Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we adopt the agenda as published. Rountree: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda. All in favor. THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Item 3. Presentation by Treasure Valley Air Quality Council: Approve Wardle: Madame Mayor I know you have been involved in this Council and instrumental in its designs. Would you like to introduce our guests here today? De Weerd: You bet I do. Mr. President and Council members today we have with us a Dr. Del Stephenson. He is one of the co-chairs of the Treasure Valley Air Quality Council and he is here to bring you an overview of what we have done and some of the recommendations and he is looking for your feedback on how Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 2 of 28 you feel they are either pro for them or if we need to do some fine tuning. Dr. Stephenson? Stephenson: Thank you Mayor De Weerd and City Council members. I am going to give you a presentation basically today on the happenings of the Treasure Valley Air Quality Council. Indeed we are looking for feedback, but probably a benefit to you is the fact that I will be introducing you to what the Treasure Valley Air Quality Council has been all about. What we have been doing and where we are going and probably for some of you this will be the first introduction into the Treasure Valley Air Quality Council and that will help you develop some kind of questions for feedback. Okay, next slide please. It all started back in 2005, March of 2005 when then Governor Dirk Kempthorne signed the Regional Air Quality Council Act. This was a legislative act that created the Treasure Valley Air Quality Council. The major intent of this act was to in one sentence that we have up there says to preserve and protect the air quality of the State of Idaho. Especially in light of the two (inaudible) counties that we have, Ada and Canyon Counties and to look at them to try to get them to work together to preserve air quality in the Treasure Valley and I will show you a little bit more about why it is important that they both work together - in terms of the Council viewpoint to preserve air quality now and into the future. The major responsibility that we have been tackling over the last, it has been about a year and one half is the development of a Treasure Valley air quality plan. We are close to finalizing the plan and probably within the next 45 days or so we will issue a final plan. Right now we are out presenting a draft plan, which is close to being finalized to many entities throughout the Treasure Valley, just as Mayor De Weerd said to gain feedback, inform and education what this plan is all about that the Council has come up with. Fourteen members are on the Council and with the next slide what I would like to do is show you what these governor appointees look like. I think the major strategic part of appointing members on this Council is the diverse nature of the Council. Obviously, we have got two counties, which we would like to have be represented and we do. We also have different interests that related to air quality need to be on this Council and you can see the major interests that we have there. So, we have a couple of Mayors. Mayor De Weerd is a member of the Council. I am representing the at large member. I am a professor (inaudible) University. Theoretically I have no biases. I only have air quality as my primary interest, so I am going to be coming from that view point tonight. I am not going to give a long lecture as I do at the University, but we want to talk a little bit about - and I know all of you really do know what causes poor air quality from an intuitive sense, but we are coming into the season which we are all too familiar with and that is the inversion season. So, before we have one here probably or maybe in the next month or two, let's take a look at what the major factor of our winter time for air quality is. We live between two mountain ranges here, which you are all familiar with In the Treasure Valley. If you will, on the southwest side is the Owyhee's and then to our northwest side is the Boise Front and what that does is really creates the Treasure Valley. What happens really in two primary times throughout the year Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 3 of 28 in the winter time in which we have our inversions in which we have cold air trapped in this Valley and it becomes trapped when we have calm winds, stable conditions, by the way a very natural event which is caused by the weather and our topography, but what we do to that event is we add pollutants and when we have these stable conditions and the air is not allowed to mix and disburse the pollutants away and then we have our poor air quality conditions. The major concern probably of every citizen in the Treasure Valley and for that matter anyone in the State of Idaho, I imagine is the addition of pollutants in this Valley under these conditions. That, we feel and I am sure everybody will agree that as we grow over the next few decades we will probably have increased the missions and increased pollutants. So, that is why I take my hat off, if you will to the Governor and the creation of the Council so that we can be proactive before we see - and we have seen tremendous growth over the last ten or fifteen years and we are going to continue to see it. So, we are trying to be proactive as a Council and address these issues now. We talked about the weather conditions and by the way we also have stable conditions in the summer and we saw them last summer with a natural event, such as the forest fires - stable conditions in the Valley, limited air movement, build up of the pollutants that we had from the fires, which caused particulate pollution which you heard about, but also every year when we have stable conditions in the summer we have pollutant build up in the form of ozone, which you have heard about two times - the winter time and the summer time. Meteorological conditions, weather conditions dictate, but with increased emissions in the Valley with growth we are going to have increasing concerns in the future. I will say something on population growth right now and that is that we have had some pretty good lectures and we have been educated over the last year and one half by the Council by organizations such as COMPASS, which looks at transportation and population growth in the Valley and we are at half a million people in this Valley right now. I think a very conserved projection, which we have been told by COMPASS and other organizations that have validated it that by 2030 there will no doubt be at least one million people in the Valley. With people, come increased emissions and that is really where we are coming from. Obviously as I will show you in a minute, major emissions will be vehicles and obviously with people come vehicles. So, we are really trying to get a hold on that growth and be proactive to manage air quality. Too major take away themes from what causes poor air quality: weather. Today, if you look today it was pretty nice. We could see the mountains. A nice gorgeous day in Boise. We didn't have the weather conditions that would create poor air quality. Next week, two weeks or next month we could have stable conditions. The same thing going on today except we don't have any mixing and we have the pollutants build up. The emissions are the other factor. Where do we get emissions? I could probably poll each one of you and one thing that comes to mind is obviously industrial sources. I am going to show you what the major in terms of some of the good science where we have seen where the major emissions come from and cars, trucks, industry, construction, agriculture and then I know this hits home to a lot of us, our personal activities. We are going to try in some of the recommendations, try to Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 4 of 28 address those and see what we can do to manage those sources such that we minimize the amount of pollution build up that we have. Let's take a look at where our major emissions come from with the next slide. Probably no secret - half of this pie chart is vehicles. We can probably just count the number of vehicles each one of us have in our homes with half a million people in the Treasure Valley and then let's take a look at the number of cars, boats, ATV's that we own when we have a million people in this Valley and see what impact may have on air quality. We need to address that. Of other interests, obviously is that we do have industrial sources. Most of you know from a City Council viewpoint that those are regulated currently. Some of the things that we might try to address as a Council are the unregulated sources. We will talk a little bit more about that. Air quality standards - there are federal air quality standards, national land being air quality standards that the State of Idaho must adhere to. Major concern -- probably all of us in the Treasure Valley is what happens if we don't meet those standards? Many implications - a lot of us in terms of what you do every day as a City Council you are concerned about some of the economic implications. Certainly, don't want to put a strain on the economy if we can help it. This Valley has thrived on economic growth in the past decades and will continue to thrive on that in the future and some of the restrictions placed on economic growth will come and be enhanced if we don't meet those legal standards. You saw the yellow air quality alerts in the past - we had a red air quality alert. All of those things go towards hindering some of the economic growth opportunities we may have. Those are some of the things that we want to try and limit. The other things that I am concerned with, I am in the ecology health sciences is health and lifestyle. The reason that we are concerned with poor air quality at its foundation is because of the health implications to the public. If air quality was healthy to breathe, we would go the other way and say let's get as many pollutants in the air as we can, but it isn't. It is not only and I will show you some of the health impacts, but it is not only that it is the quality of life. A great example of that was when we had one of our first home games at Boise State this year and we had the fires in here and I can't remember which team we were playing, but the people - must have been a local team - fans came from out of state and they said man I came here to see the mountains and I can't even see the mountains. You know they took that home with them and that was a natural event caused by fires, but what happens now if we exceeding or more events caused by our vehicles and our emissions. People will take that home with them and we move here because the quality of life. I moved here because of the quality of life. It is important. Like I say, health effects are at the foundation. These are some of the symptoms - respiratory in nature; population groups of particular concern and that is the compromised elderly, with pulmonary compromises and lung compromises and the very young. I will say that there is plenty of medical evidence out there that does say that even the concentrations set by the federal limits and some science even goes below that that there are adverse health effects. Our Department of Environmental Quality does a very good job, especially during poor air quality events of publicizing that and telling us what to do when we have poor air quality. Some of the pollutants that we Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 5 of 28 have in the atmosphere also do environmental damage and lots of science out there on crop damage, damage to trees and other vegetation. So, from my standpoint this is a very important aspect of what we are trying to do to limit air quality as we go into the future. Let's get into the meat - recommendations by the Council as we try to finalize this plan. The first one is based on education. Probably the most basic, the most intuitive but the hardest to implement. It is kind of like funding education In elementary and high schools and on into college. Very important, tough to do. We want to try to find a mechanism to provide funding and I will talk a little bit about that so that we can get some of the public awareness out there for behavior change. This is the non-regulated. These are the stuff that we can do to help minimize as a citizen. The only way to do that is to enhance education. We need to have a mechanism and we will recommend a mechanism to provide funding to get more education out. We do have education opportunities out there with DEQ and other agencies in the state, but I know it is unfortunate but the reality is they are doing a lot of other things and resources and funding is limited to get that out there. So, we need to enhance funding and I will talk about how we might do that. The next recommendation - so not only to the public, but maybe enhance awareness through an entity which I will mention to provide employer opportunities to promote better air quality through some of the behavior that they do as an employer. That is a laundry list there of some of the ideas that we may have that we need find ways to provide awareness and education to an employers and opportunities for mechanisms that they can use to promote good air quality behavior if you will. Okay? Here is the big one, which you probably thought was coming. In the final plan there will be a recommendation for emissions testing in both Ada and Canyon Counties. I want to say right now it will not be the same type of emissions testing program that is currently being implemented in Ada County. It will be, based on the science that we have been educated on with many, many presentations, we are going to go with the best technology, proven technology in other states and let me talk about that. This new testing program would implement on board diagnostic testing. Now what that basically is, is there is a computer chip in your car and you will plug in - in newer cars, I will mention that - that you will plug in and it will test the vehicles performance. That computer chip was implemented in '96 in newer vehicles. This new emissions testing program would not test and I think that is wrong - it is (inaudible) older cars and this is based upon some information from our current testing program, but four year old or newer cars will not be tested. 1996 model years and newer up to that four year limit will be on board diagnostic tested. The question becomes what happens to the other vehicles? What happens - and we always get this question - what happens to what we call the gross polluters, the big smoking vehicles? As a part of this testing program we are going to recommend some form of implementation of remote censing to detect gross polluters and by the way, even with a newer car if it is not well maintained it has the potential to be a gross polluter and the remote sensing would theoretically catch that. How do you fund it? There has been much discussion on that and the idea that we are going with now is an increase in the registration fee - don't have an exact figure. We have thrown out there that it will Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 6 of 28 be ten dollars or under. What are we going to do with that funding? We are going to help implement the new testing program. We are going to also provide funding for the education aspect of this program and then also provide a little bit of funding I think for the other two recommendations. The other major question is who implements? You can throw out a new testing program and an education aspect to it, but you have got to have somebody implement and develop some of these education programs and implement it. We are going to recommend - this isn't the official title, but some sort of air quality management district to administer the program, both the education and the vehicle emissions testing. Now, the key part of this management district is it will represent both Canyon and Ada Counties. We realize there is an Ada County Air Quality Board, we are still under discussion how that will be affected and I do know that logic will take place to make sure that we do the right thing in terms of that. But, there has to be some sort of entity to help administer this program. Wardle: Just a quick question before we move on. I understand Ada and Canyon Counties - was there a final determination on including Gem, Owyhee, Elmore or any of those additional counties that commute into our air shed? Stephenson: We had a discussion on that issue and- De Weerd: I didn't plant that question. Stephenson: Oh, no, no that is fine. Wardle: I do sit on the Board for Ada County Air Quality. Stephenson: That is great and I ask the same question, saying that there is more than just Ada and Canyon Counties in our air shed, our topographic air shed where this stable air can reside. I did get an answer and I - do you remember what it was? (Speaker unknown): (Inaudible - not on microphone). Stephenson: I think those are major growth areas. I am assuming you know maybe Gem and those counties also have growth going on too, but - oh, I do know the answer, I remember now. It is in the Act. The Act designated both those counties as the counties that will be affected by the plan and that is correct. It is in the legislative act that was signed by the Governor. By the way, you raise a good question. On the bottom of everyone of these slides is the website to our Council and the Act is listed right on that website, along with the Council Members and everyone presentation that we have been given and every meeting minutes and all the meetings that we have had. But, that is the answer to your question. Those two counties were designated in the Act. Don't know the reason exactly why behind that. That was before me. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 7 of 28 Wardle: And certainly I understand the political ramifications. One of the questions and I will have at the end of the presentation - this legislation as I understand was to convene a Council, bring recommendations forward, but there still is additional legislation crafted to implement this. Stephenson: That is correct. Wardle: That would be one of the questions where I understand its current Act, but- Stephenson: I will say that the education component we do not foresee crafting of legislation to implement that, but this component right here will take a legislative creation to help implement that. That is correct. So, as we develop the final plan in tandem if we have time to do it for this session we are going to have to start crafting some legislation and see what kind of bill that we get it into. But, you are right. This is probably the only portion that we are foreseeing that we are going to have crafting of legislation is this portion here. This portion is another recommendation and we have had gracious lectures and education particularly by Mr. (inaudible) from DEQ on stage one vapor recovery and it is a fancy term for when a gas truck delivers gasoline to an underground storage tank capturing the vapors that are admitted during the dispenser. I was educated to this. This is where we get our biggest bang for the buck. As it states up there, emissions from filling a gasoline storage tank is the single largest uncontrolled source of volatile organic compounds, these vapors in the Treasure Valley. Now these vapors are very important to the generation of some of the other pollutants in there like ozone, which are we trying to control and we get a large - for the amount of money that it costs to retrofit or create these vapor recovery mechanisms we get a large return. I will say this; there are a lot of questions on this on who is going to pay for it? Do the station owners pay for it? Is it passed on to the customers at the gas station? These are questions that we will not iron out. We envision that implementation of stage one vapor recovery will be done during negotiating rulemaking and where you bring all interested parties together and you make sure that their interests are seen and that the best tactful implementation is made available. De Weerd: Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Del, in regard to what this would affect on the pie chart with the sources of population - Stephenson: -- sources of emissions? De Weerd: Yeah - which one would that relate to? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 8 of 28 Stephenson: Well- De Weerd: Miscellaneous? Where is that? Stephenson: Well, where is that source? It is not a vehicle source per se- De Weerd: Leonard you need to speak into the microphone because this is important information. Herr: That chart actually reflects nitrogen oxide emissions, so it is not a chart of (inaudible) or any compound emissions, so it is not on the chart actually. VOC is making about 25 percent of the emissions in the Valley - emissions from underground storage tanks make up about 25 percent of the VOC's in the Valley. That is the single source contributor for those. That chart is nitrogen oxide, which is a high temperature combustion emission, primarily from vehicles and things like that. So, there is a lot of different pollutants out there and that is just the one pollutant chart they use to try and show a ratio for that particular pollutant. De Weerd: Well, just some feedback, though, when we do this to another entity we will want at least to tie this to something. So, even in our recommendation in the document that that is explained. It has been my one disconnect. Herr: Sure and in the document - in the plan it is explained, but actually on here - I see on this slide actually that the little pie chart should be stuck up there to kind of clarify that because it doesn't go along with that other pie chart. Wardle: Just for clarification as I understand and you can correct me if I am wrong, but the VOC's are a contributor to ozone, right? (Inaudible discussion) Herr: They are both secondary pollutants that is formed from gases. Wardle: But, we currently are not in non-attainment, fast approaching based on some of the episodes we have had. Stephenson: Yeah and even based upon some the new regulatory action by the EPA in lowering the standard for fine particular and looking into the future and again looking at future growth is where the concern becomes with added pollutants. But, I think even as you look at that pie chart and we could have a pie chart for every pollutant that we are monitoring based up EPA standards and we would see vehicles being a large chunk in every one of those pie charts. So - I understand and that is a very good point as we refine this. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 9 of 28 De Weerd: Well, yeah as people are trying to grasp understanding in the implications it helps to be able to relate it to the correct thing. Stephenson: Yeah, that is a good point. Wardle: And you have stage two up here, but I don't see - is that part of the --? Stephenson: No it is not. It is a nice little slide to show - and I thought about cutting it in half. But, it just didn't cut in half too well. But, you are right it is stage two and in fact it is not part of the recommendations. Next slide. Oh, this is a hard one to talk on_ This is another recommendation, but we envision the air quality - I guess some sort of entity like the management district that is going to work with - now you talk about Canyon County, Ada County and some of the municipalities within those and maybe even in Gem and some of the other counties within the air shed trying to standardized and uniform the ordinances that we have and this is a political nightmare we realize. We are not recommending that it - we are not taking any action, there is not really even any heavy teeth into the plan to require this, but as we have done in the past and as we will continue in the future to try to have the local governments work together to see if everybody can play and if we can do enough education and awareness it is really important for air quality. It is a hot button item and so hopefully that will happen. We don't have anything to put any big teeth into this, but from my perspective in terms of managing air quality in the future decades, this is maybe the number one most important. We have got a lot of entities out there that are trying to plan for our growth. There is a bullet list here of some of those entities that are doing that. We will - I am sure this air quality management district whatever it looks like will do everything they can to leverage these so that we do have appropriate transportation routes, corridors as it goes to a million plus in the next few years as we tend to right now develop outward and whether or not we are going to make a decision to develop inward. I have even heard some of Mayor De Weerd's ideas which are great in terms of trying to limit this sprawl, reduced vehicle miles traveled which you are going to hear more and more of in terms of maybe being one of the most key factors in vehicle emissions and not only that and I liked another term, I can't remember, it is something like vehicle miles idling. I have to admit I live on the east side of this Valley and I never ever, ever, I hear it on the radio, but I never take 1-84 at 5:00 or 5:30 because I have never experienced it. I did tonight and maybe tonight was a good one. I don't know, but it was a good eye opener for me and there was a few vehicle miles idled, which is another key aspect to this. I think that is it and that is a nice slide here to show a nice inversion developing. Okay, your turn. Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 10 of 28 Bird: I love this thank you very much. I just have more of a statement than a question. I think the Council really needs to look at recommending more counties than just - I know it is political, don't get me wrong and I wish it wasn't, but as land prices get higher in Ada and Canyon we drive the workers into Gem County, Boise County, Elmore County and even Washington County and I think if you stand out here on the bridge at the overpass in Meridian every morning and watch the (inaudible) of Washington and then go back over north here at Eagle and watch all of the Gem County plates that come in and to the east go and watch Elmore and Boise Counties come in, I think you would all be shocked. Of course, I personally am for all the state or none of the state. That is just something that I wanted to say. Stephenson: Are we capturing something like that? I mean, that is a good comment. Bird: I think we really, really need to look at the outlying areas because as this community grows, this area grows we are going to push them to the outside. Stephenson: Yeah, good comment. Rountree: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Dr. Stephenson I have some questions and some comments. I guess my first question is on the third page of your presentation. You identified the makeup of the Commission. Was there a transportation agency or agencies represented in that group? Stephenson: The way I could answer that is I came on the Council probably seven months into it and I do not know. I just don't know the answer to that. I don't know how the initial makeup was, in fact, I don't want to defer to Mayor De Weerd, but she may know more. She was on it earlier than I was. De Weerd: Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: As you can see by the list, the piece of legislation didn't specifically specify (inaudible) transportation; however, we did have COMPASS that brought in a lot of the data and the input from the Communities in Motion document. Rountree: A couple of points in that regard. It seems to me that a good portion of the planning and funding that is going to drive this effort in the future is going to come from transportation entities and probably a good portion of those funds are going to be federal aid dollars. I refer to the twelfth slide in your presentation Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 11 of 28 and of the nine or ten awareness to be a good citizen related to air quality things you can do, only one of them doesn't directly involve transportation in your vehicle and to me that is a weakness in your plan. I think you need to move that forward. I guess from Leonard's information and I don't know if you have heard this or not, but Matthew Moore is now the Chief of Planning or the Planning Administrator at the Idaho Transportation Department and so you have probably one of the best air quality minds in the state now heading the planning activities with the Idaho Transportation Department. There is probably a pretty good nexus there. Stephenson: It may be and I will just comment towards that that it may be that as we set the makeup of whatever management district, if there is one developed that we ensure that we have a good transportation component to that management district. Rountree: Just a general comment. I think the science of air quality today is finally a refined science and one that you can actually quantify some things with some fairly sophisticated and rival models. But, the politics of air quality today is no different than it was 20 years ago when it first got in business. In fact, it might be a little worse today because I think the fear factor has waned. So, that is something that your plan is going to have to speak to. That is going to be a big obstacle with some of these things that you are talking about. Specifically, you are talking about programs that are going to require funding. You are going to have programs that are going to affect others than just Ada and Canyon folks. I really and truly like the remote sensing technology and fully support that concept. I would like to see it go beyond enforcement to Ada and Canyon County residents - it could go to anybody from Emmett or Colorado Springs that drive through the Valley and pollute. They could be ticketed and fined just as if they were speeding. Same for commercial vehicles just as if they were driving overweight. They are remote sense for weight and speed. You could add this to that particular technology and you could put that on their trip ticket as they go through town. I would suggest that the plan includes some specifics. We would do more for Ada and Canyon Counties if we would eliminate two cycle weed whackers, barbeques and enforce or require diesel filter retro fits than any of this stuff and those are relatively straightforward, but hard to sell because of the politics involved. But, there are simple technologies that do wonderful things. I think those need to be brought to light. If nothing else, maybe four or five or six years from now somebody will go back to this planning document and say you know we knew that, but why didn't we do anything with it? We have known it for years. We know PM 2.5 is going to be a real problem and diesel is going to be a major makeup of that. We have got to start dealing with that stuff now. Stephenson: And I will speak to that. Those are all excellent and we have heard it over and over even in our meetings. When I first came on the Council I heard this comment to me - our Council is supposed to fix air quality in the Treasure Valley. Fix it now and as all you know how complex it is. As I sat on the Council, Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 12 of 28 we know we can't do everything at once right now and the plan does need to be more specific in some items and that is where we are trying to finalize because we did get feedback from external stakeholders and citizens on to make it more specific. I think the intent is the Council is going to - and I think the legislative act says it has a seven year life or something. I mean, we are going to continue, but we also want to empower this air quality management district to continue on. We are trying to grab the low hanging fruit, the big ones that we know we can implement maybe now, but not to stop and to try and get some of the ideas - I mean, off road diesel, I mean, there is a lot of controversial issues out there and continue on and make it more complex, if you will, as we go. Yeah, but those are great comments. Rountree: I guess my final comment is a specific comment. You talked about how you pay for some of these programs and you indicated an increase in registration fees, probably need to check the constitutionality of that. I suspect that you will find that when you start messing with those kinds of fees that the constitution pretty much directs those to go to transportation activities, which is another weakness by the way in trying to identify air quality money because it has got to go to necessarily a transportation facility as opposed to a public transportation facility or a remedy. So, your work is cut out for you. You indicated what the intent of the legislation was; the intent that was discussed in the interim committee that drafted the legislation was to try and get commerce and industry folks in the two counties to take of our air quality problems. I think there is an expectation that that will be done, but I also believe that there was an expectation that the industry would probably not shoulder a major portion of that activity. So, I think the bottom line is a good share of it is going to end up on the street. Stephenson: Well. we certainly have - you know with this like you say we have work cut out for you. I still really do take my hat off to the members of the Council and this Council to try to take a step forward. We will run into some hurdles. De Weerd: Mr. President. I guess it is something that the Council does need to discuss. I know we have discussed a number of the issues that you brought up, Charlie and to look at including them as longer term issues to address that you know that initial responsibilities are the primary (inaudible) and some issues to be looked at in a certain timeframes and we don't want to ignore it and certainly we don't want to suggest in our report that they haven't been discussed and they are not listed as one of our priorities, but we have been trying to be sensitive to the political nature of this. I mean the legislature I think was the only one that wanted this group established to begin with. The cities and the counties, COMPASS, no one wanted it. It was not a supported mandate and so that sensitivity kind of still lingers in what to bring in the initial draft. But, I think those need to be listed as items that have been discussed and that should be considered further. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 13 of 28 Stephenson: Specifically items that Councilman Rountree said or are you just saying generically other items that we may have missed? De Weerd: We can get the minutes from the Clerk's Office later. Stephenson: Okay, I do know that the drafting committee is still meeting and we are revising that plan over the next 45 days to make it a little more comprehensive and that comment can be made as we get into the final chapters. We do have a section on items to be looked at in the future. I mean, there is a section at the end. I don't know if it is all encompassing. You know maybe we need to make it as comprehensive as we can. Rountree: Madame Mayor, Mr. President. I guess to that point I would say don't make any assumptions that the folks, the audience of this know what all issues are. If they are not there it is real easy for them to say weill didn't know, but at least they are tabularized and if they take a minute with the document at the breakfast table, they have had an opportunity anyway to see this kind of stuff. Your recommendation doesn't say that you have to pick one from "a" and two from "b" and two from "c". These are the simple kinds of things that onerous to do, but simple things that can be done to make our quality of life better and I agree with you 100 percent. It is not about the asthma I have gotten in myoid age because of the bad air quality in the Treasure Valley, it is about the quality of life which stimulates the economy and without that - Stephenson: Yeah, this is our first presentation. We have got to head out to Canyon County and some other places - we are going to get a diverse (inaudible). Wardle: I will wrap up with just a couple of comments and one of those is I do support the awareness campaign you have; I have seen it work within this Valley. As an individual who should know some of these things, I learned just the other day watching a television program that refueling when it's cool actually increases your energy (inaudible) efficient of the fuel you put in your tank. Meaning, as I understand this when the heat index rises and you put hotter fuel in your tank you are paying more for the gas you get. So, that is just a simple - I didn't know that. I don't how many consumers understand that and so I support that effort. Secondly, at the local level I know one of the things that we discussed - I have seen one new fueling station, gas station come through as I remember on the Council and when we talked about phase one recovery this was a national chain, phase one recovery not implemented, but at least the infrastructure comes standard in all their engineering documents in new stations and so while that can be a requirement of anyone requesting new development, I do see the need for some sort of funding or phasing program for existing fueling stations. Much like if you look at the program when they had all of the fuel stations had to dig up and inspect their tanks a similar sort of program in administration may help. Then lastly I would say - Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 14 of 28 De Weerd: Mr. President before you move on that is something that we can put in our local ordinances as a requirement and I believe we have talked about that. So, Mr. Nary if you will make note of that it is something we certainly want to consider and maybe set the standard on. Wardle: And lastly I understand it took a long time to come to the table for just Ada and Canyon Counties and I understand the political ramifications of what is going to happen at the legislative level, I can say that we have an excellent example in this county if you are allowed to opt out of a program as Kuna did when we administered the emissions testing, if you are allowed to opt out that historically you will never come back in and regardless of the growth - we look at the growth today, we look at the population today in Kuna and those sorts of things will happen in Boise, Gem, Elmore and Owyhee Counties and so I would certainly will be calling my legislator. Stephenson: Yes, and we discussed that over and over. Even on the Council there is a divide somewhat and some of us are saying hey let's put teeth to this so we don't allow - (Tape turned over) Stephenson: -- others may have constituents or whatever their interests and they back off a little bit. But, yes, I do appreciate that. Wardle: Thank you for your presentation. Anything further? De Weerd: Mr. President I guess if you have any additional thoughts or anything we can change in the presentation, we would appreciate feedback because we would like this refined before we get to Canyon County. Stephenson: Yeah, we are going to be going to Nampa City Council and we would certainly like to make sure we aren't missing anything. Rountree: I guess a follow up on that comment, Mayor. Dr. Stephenson mentioned there is a review draft, pre-draft review out there being considered? Stephenson: Correct. Rountree: Is that just being considered by the Committee or is that out in some other areas for -- ? Stephenson: No, we do have it on the website. We have our draft plan on the website and it is out there for review. Rountree: All right. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 15 of 28 De Weerd: Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Mr. Rountree I did send a link to it in September or late August, but I could send you a link. Wardle: Thanks for being here. Item 4. Discussion of Fire Arms Training Center by Lt. Jeff Lavey: Wardle: Council I will just briefly introduce this item. This has become a discussion item in the department and it really came to a pre-planning session as we looked at the impact fee for the Police and Fire services and was identified as a potential item and so I have asked Lt. Lavey to come forward and bring us - essentially today you will see information and I believe it has a short recommendation. De Weerd: While we wait I can compliment Hilary on her article. Thank you for the coverage of the City Hall ceremony yesterday it was very nicely written. Bird: Are they up and running now? Wardle: I don't know, cross your fingers. Rountree: We have got the Chief up there trying to run it. Lavey: Lt. Jeff Lavey of Meridian Police. De Weerd: Do you want to pull the microphone up please? Lavey: Madame Mayor, Mr. President, Council thank you for the time to present this today. What we are going to talk about is a general concept and a proposal of having a fire arms range here in the city limits of Meridian. Next slide. Currently, Meridian Police Department does not have a range facility. In my tenure here we have not had a range facility and it is my understanding and in the Chiefs tenure we have not had a range facility for Meridian Police Department. It wasn't critical when we had four, five or ten officers, but now we are currently at 77 officers and growing. We actually had a partnership with Ada County and we used Ada County's range for a considerable amount of time until they lost it to the landfill, the dump won the police. They are in the process of trying to build a new facility. Currently, they are having problems with a couple of property owners up there. Their proposal was a 20 year proposal, fixed and now it is down to ten years and they still have not been given the go ahead to build a Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Pa~e 16 of 28 range up in Ada County. One of the things that I worry about is once we do build up at Ada County, it is still on landfill property and it has the potential to go away. So, I would not like to put a whole lot of money into that resource, but that is an option. We used to shoot at the Nampa's Police Department range. It lost out to development. We currently used Nampa Rod and Gun Club. It is not a very good facility. Basically, it is a pit in the side of the mountain and it fits eight officers. Well, eight officers at a time, timed 77 officers it takes a considerable amount of time to get every officer through that. Just recently we used the Boise City range. Boise City charges us $300 a day. Our recent shoot that we just had Friday, actually today was the last day cost $900 for three days. That does not include any remedial training we have to do, advanced academy training for new recruits and it doesn't count for the additional officers that we bring on, which we would have to stretch out the days. They do also offer a $3,000 a year commitment to shoot on their range. The problem with that is that range has already been sold once and it came back to the original owners due to some contaminants and some other legal Issues, but it is in prime foothills development and it, too, may go away some day and so I am cautious about giving them $3,000 a year and then losing it if they sell the property. So, currently we are operating on a day by day basis. The problem with that is that we have to compete with Boise City who has 269 officers for the same range space and so we often do not get three days in a row. In fact, we just recently - the only reason we got this weekend is because it fell on the holiday weekend, Veteran's Day. Next slide. I have been in discussions with President Wardle, Councilman Bird, Chief Musser and a few other people about the idea of building a range here in the city limits of Meridian. Now, you get real cautious right away when you sit there and go when you go oh my gosh they are going to build a range with live bullets here in the city. I can tell you that the vendor that I am working with has built ranges on downtown city blocks in the State of California. I do not have him with me today, but I do have pictures of him standing next to the building on the busy eight lane street and you can't tell there is a shooting range inside until you read the sign or walk inside. There is several different ranges around here. We have actually built just kind of cement pads and shot into a hillside. Well, someday when that land is sold, you are going to have to (inaUdible) that soil and you it is probably going to be contaminated and it is going to be a major, major expense. You can build indoor ranges, but indoor ranges require a great amount of ventilation system, liability insurance and a bunch of things. What we are proposing is looking at a concept of an indoor outdoor range and what I mean by that is it would have a shell of a building and it would have baffles on the top. Later on I will show you a slide of what we are talking about. But, basically you would have three sides that you could shoot at. You could actually shoot to the left, to the right and down range. The only reason why you can't shoot backwards is because that is where everybody else is standing and that would be a detriment. You could actually shoot straight up into the air and the baffles would catch the bullet and it would reflect back down. The only way a bullet would leave that building is if you turned around backwards, pointed downrange, excuse me pointed up range in between the baffles and was Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 17 of 28 able to get a bullet in between a two to three inch space. You have seen some of our shootings and I don't think that we are that good. You can make the exterior of the building look like anything you want it to look like. You can actually put side safety berms on it, plant grass, plant trees, you can actually use concrete blocks, you can use decorative blocks. It is whatever you want. It is whatever expense you want or whatever you want to spend. The outside is kind of like an exterior shell of the safety walls. We actually priced out a 20-lane facility, 50 yards and seven of those lanes hardened steel for rifle, space for a classroom, space for a range master control room / office where you actually can watch the range, a place to clean weapons, parking lot and all the other things that are necessary for the range that targets the sound system and that sort of thing at about $2.6 million. Depending on what you want inside, how large you want, how soon you build it I am estimating between $2.5 and $3.5 million. The next big question is location. We are proposing that it built on the land just adjacent to the Police Department for a couple of reasons. One is the city already owns the property and two is it is right next door to the Police Department and the K-9 training facility and it would just go in hand on what we are already doing on the police campus. Go ahead and go to the next slide. It is not a very good slide, but this is a picture of a range down in California and you can kind of see the (inaudible) at the top and pardon the shadows and everything else, but you can kind of see sunlight coming through too and all they are is hardened steel that are angled, the engineers have this specific angle that deflects the rounds and it actually deflects the rounds downward so they don't reflect back at the people on the range. That is what the ceiling would actually look like. If you were to look at the building on the outside it would look like a flat roof building. If you were to drive over it, it would look like a flat roof building. Next slide. Bird: I was just thinking I wanted to say something. I noticed this the other day when I drove by - finally got rid of the UP dump yard, we didn't look like the UP property anymore. Lavey: As I say it is just ready for development. We had a few people that were excited, Councilman Bird, when they were cleaning up that property at your encouragement, I guess, suggestion. They actually thought that we were building the range. Some others thought that we were building the fire training center and I said no we are just cleaning up the dump. So, these are shots that are directly adjacent to the building. This is the last parcel or piece of the parcel that is undeveloped out of the ten acres that the city purchased back in, I believe, 2000. Any of those next slides there. Bird: What have we got about five acres, Jeff - oh, excuse me. Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: About five acres? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 18 of 28 Lavey: I think it is about three acres. Bird: Three acres? Lavey: Yeah. It is - I forget the dimensions of the lot. It is 450 feet by 300 and something, I believe is what it is. I would propose that we actually tile the canal too to gain a little bit more space if that's what we are going to do. These are just shots of the piece of property, the K-9 train facility at the Police Department. As you can see this would just be located on the parcel directly to the Police Department and it would just make a nice training campus. Next slide please. De Weerd: Kiwana? Lavey: I put that in for the Chief. Bird: What club is that? Lavey: That is my error. He has got me - he is my big boss. I apologize for the typo error. When I originally talked about a concept, what I was going to propose is a partnership between the local clubs. These are just a couple that came to mind. The Optimist Club, Fish and Game Hunter Safety, Idaho POST. I kind of thought I would use this as a bargaining chip with Idaho POST is that if we were to build this range the only thing that we couldn't accommodate is driving EVOC course. They have an EVOC course. We don't. I figure they shoot on our range, we get greater priority on the EVOC course. De Weerd: Maybe we could swap them an R.V. for shooting privileges. Lavey: That is still a bad topic. Bird: Especially who we lost to. Lavey: They didn't really want is what they told me. They had a brand new one paid for. They just thought we would try this first. We digressed. I haven't spoke with anyone in these groups, but what I would propose is that we contact them, see if they are interested in a partnership with us to build this facility. The Optimist Club with their youth, have a poor run down building that they have been trying to find someplace new for a long, long, time. I would like to make an offer to them that they sell that building, give us the money or the proceeds from that and be in partnership with us at this facility. Fish and Game Hunter Safety, we actually currently have hunter safety courses in the public meeting room at the Police Department; however, we do not allow weapons in that building. We are just kind of biased to that. Having this range facility would allow them to actually bring weapons in and be able to show the kids how to safely handle the weapons while they are teaching the courses. It is my understanding that there Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 19 of 28 is a couple of different areas that they do use that are probably going to go away, too. They are kind of facing the same things that we are facing. Greater development, we are losing the space and such. Then the Kiwanis Club and all those other clubs that actually deal with youth (inaudible) an opportunity to come in and have a place to safely handle fire arms. Next slide please. Wardle: Lieutenant, just before you pass - it might be helpful to explain it to those have may not been through hunter safety that it is a requirement that you handle and as I understand it unless they have changed the regulations, (inaudible) fire a weapon before you can receive your certifications, is that true? Lavey: That is true. They actually have to make a accommodations to go to another facility to do that. So, they are actually able to do the classroom portion at the Meridian PD and then they have to go elsewhere to do the actual handling of the - Wardle: Mr. Bird didn't you have a grandson that tried to get into a class? Bird: We have not got in a class yet and we were filled up in Meridian, went to Garden City and they were filled up, also. While we are on the subject if I may- Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: I know the Optimist Club is - we met with them the Mayor and I and they want to do something. I just believe that this is the finest opportunity that we have for our Police Officers and our youth to intermingle with each other. I think it will be beneficial to the youth like we have never seen in this community before. I happen to be one of the guys in the group that started this original Optimist shooting range and we did it right over here at the Heritage Building, which was the first one down in the basement. You know and back on what you said about Chief Musser and not having to shoot - I don't think they had guns in those days did they when he first started? Lavey: I think they were rocks and sling shots. Bird: Yeah, black powder. But anyway, I just think that it is something that we as a city could encourage the youth of Meridian to and not only Meridian but the whole community that is involved in this rifle club to intermingle and get to know our officers and not be as scared of our officers, which they shouldn't be. I think it is just an opportunity that we need to jump on right now. Lavey: I agree. Let's go to the next slide because I still have some youth on there too. As I said before we have 77 officers with the Police Department. That does not include the reserves so we do have reserves that have to train too. I will tell you that by having the shooting range right next door, it would increase the amount of training time that we have, reduce the amount of travel time that Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 20 of 28 we have - it takes anywhere from 40 minutes to 60 minutes to get to any fire range that we shoot at in the area depending on traffic. The Nampa range is 45 minutes from here. The Boise range is probably 25 minutes on a good day, 50 minutes on a normal day. That goes to the efficiency. It just is not very efficient for us right now how we are doing things, but we survive. One of the things that I look at is recruiting. I am always looking at greater things to dangle at people or entice them to come work here. As you know, hiring qualified Police Officers has been quite difficult in not only the Treasure Valley, but across the United States. Anything that we can do to bring those people into this department is a benefit and to be able to tell them that we have a Police Department, we have a K-9 training facility next door with mat room, outside green areas, a shooting range it would just be a nice thing to tell .people that we have, plus we would be one of the first in Idaho, which I like. Then let's go back to the youth once again. One of the things that we are finding and this is the scary part is that we are finding a lot more children and I say children that are carrying firearms and they are carrying firearms to commit crimes and we are taking guns off of our kids and any program that we can have that allows us to work with the kids in a positive environment is going to be that much greater for our youth in the future. I love the chance to be able to work with Police Officers and children and this is just one other way to do that and to get an added benefit out of that. Plus it gives my officers to a chance to deal with kids - we are starting to hire a lot more younger officers that do not have children and it just kind of gives them good practice. Next slide. Where do we go from here? I have provided a copy of it to President Wardle, but I actually had a proposal for a sound study. One of the things that we are looking at talking with our vendor is that the freeway actually causes more noise than the firearm. You probably wouldn't be able to hear a gunshot unless you stood right upside the building and it was really quiet, there was no traffic going by it and there is no other noise in the area. The squealing of the tires on the POST EVOC track or the siren on the POST EVOC track would create greater noise than the gunshot. So, it would do a couple of things. One is it would tell us exactly what sort of noise is currently out there; what we could face if we were to put a firearms range out there and then it just gives us a good history to just archive away if anybody ever wants to bring something up in the future, we have our sound study. Because there is some undeveloped land out there that who knows what it is going to be in the future. That was around 78, 85 so it would be no greater than $8,000. I would like to seek $8,000 to request that study if you like the idea. I personally have not approached any of the partnerships that I talked about because I kind of wanted to see what the Councils' thoughts were on it. If you absolutely told me it was a crazy idea and you didn't want me to go forward then I wasn't going to waste my time talking to the groups. If you like what you hear today, then I would propose that we go off and start making those contacts with those groups. Then the next thing is just the design and plan. We have actually talked about a design build. Our vendor says that we could actually save about 30 percent if we did a design build. We just need to talk about what our budget would be and what we could get for that budget. Then the only thing I would say is that my sense of urgency is greater Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 21 of 28 than my boss's, the Chief's. He is always telling me that I need to be patient and he was looking at a three to five year plan to put something like this into place and I will tell you that the need is today. We need it today. If you don't like the concept, then I am going to have to figure out what else I am going to do. With that being said, the next slide. That is the best part. Thank you for your time. I will attempt to answer any of those questions that you have and defer it to my boss if I can't. Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: A couple of things, Lieutenant. First of all thank you very much. I agree with you I think it is a project for right now. You know I was fortunate enough to go over with the Chief and look at the shooting world over on Emerald Street. We were standing right outside the building and couldn't hear it. If we looked into a building like that - I mean, the had classrooms and in fact they probably had more room up front than we would need, maybe it isn't a large enough shooting range, I don't know, but the different entities that we were looking at purchasing that and it fell through. I think it is something we need as we get larger. You have your officers in a vehicle - away it takes 25 or 45 minutes to drive to a range, they are over there shooting and stuff and then they come back. You are paying for I am sure a shift's wage. A lot of time it is overtime. I personally think that we need to get started on it. I was for it when we recently talked about it and I am so glad that President Wardle took hold of it and proceeded on with it. But, I am one that is looking into getting it started if we possibly can. Lavey: One of the things I did not talk about, but a range could be set up as an enterprise and where we could actually make money off it. I am not proposing that today, but that is an option. We could even look at opening it up to the public. I don't propose that, but that is an option. The one thing that I would suggest and what has been suggested to me is that we set an environmental assessment fee and they tell me that if we charge a dollar per person to shoot at that range, then we could cover all maintenance costs and all future maintenance costs on that facility. As far as milling out the lead and the filters and that sort of thing, not the heat and gas and that sort of thing. Wardle: Lieutenant one of the comments that I have just as far as the sound study - obviously being very interested being a resident, living near the Police Station in the proposed site, not quite as close as Lt. Overton, but one of the things that I understand and you talk about the squeal, the tire or the siren. Those are sort of isolated events. How many shots are we talking about to qualify one officer? Lavey: One officer qualifies at 60 rounds over a several minute period. One of the things that we would surely have to look at and I would propose right now is Meridian City Pre.Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 22 of 28 that any shooting is done during a normal business day. There is not nighttime shooting or anything like that. So, we could use the traffic from the Interstate. We could use the traffic from POST and the other road traffic to kind of blend in anything that you would see, but it is 60 rounds. We have to qualify once a year. That is the most shooting you are going to hear at anyone time, but then there is also pauses, there are like three rounds, pause, twelve rounds, pause and that sort of thing. Wardle: I guess my comment to that would be depending on what the sound study comes back at - in my opinion we need to seriously take into consideration that entire area and I do shoot at Shooting World and an indoor range I understand that there is some filter issues and things like that, but I guess my opinion is let's not weigh it out, certainly we want the most cost effective option, however, if having an indoor range is better for the surrounding area for the citizens, me in particular on a Saturday afternoon is something to take into consideration. Lavey: One of the things that I would propose and it didn't work out today is I committed to the 14th thinking I had it available and I still have to go to class afterwards the vendor that I have been dealing with, I asked him to come today but he is currently in Minneapolis. He is willing to come before you. He has built a lot of ranges. He has built a lot of ranges for the Marines. He has built a lot of ranges for the sheriff's offices in California. He is currently building several ranges for the FBI. He has underground ranges, aboveground ranges, indoor ranges, outdoor ranges and he would be more than happy to come and talk about the different options. I would just tell you that I would like to have that, too, but the price tag is much, much greater. To just give you an idea of certain things, I actually had put in a five lane, 100 yard rifle course and he told me that it would be an additional $1 million just to do that and that is just because of the price of the steel. So, as you build these more complex facilities, we can do it, it is just a matter of how much you want to budget and how much you are willing to spend. De Weerd: Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I had a couple of things. It sounds like then you have some idea of a range of costs? Lavey: What I did I put up a couple of - I think one of them is standing behind me. I put a couple of my firearms instructors together and said okay what is your wish list? They had all of these diagrams and we want this office and this space and this lunch room and everything else and then I took that and kind of cut out some of those things. But, we pretty much - we left in a 50 person classroom, a men and women's restroom, an armory, a cleaning area, an office, storage Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 23 of 28 space, 20 lanes shooting stone that would match our building and a parking lot and it was $2.6 million. It all depends on when we decide to build it and what the price of steel is at the time. I will tell you that any of the area that we want to shoot rifle in then the cost is four times that amount of money for the steel. De Weerd: Okay, Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess I think the first steps before bringing in this person is the sound study because I now that that is something that the neighbors will want first and foremost and that you approach the potential partners and define what potentially they can bring to the project and develop a business plan so that we have a better idea. A certain percentage of the capital improvement plans, I would ask the Chief to meet with finance. This city because we just recently passed an impact fee, we have an annual commitment to setting aside a certain percentage of our city dollars for the percentage that we are required to pay per that capital improvement plan. We also will want to analyze in that business plan that the impact fees, the collection thereof and that sort of thing and any costs as well based into the business plan on maintenance that could not be covered by the fees that you had mentioned. I guess to Mr. Nary, if those fees are an option at the municipal level is something that we can do through an enterprise fund because I had not heard of the environmental impact fee. Rountree: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Don't get me wrong with my comments because my comments are meant to help you. But, having been on the receiving end of one of these rush jobs through Meridian Police Department in the past, no pun intended I am a bit gun shy and I think you understand what I am talking about. But, I would rather see your expenditure of funds on a needs study - I would rather see our expenditure of funds on demonstrable partnerships that yield the potential of entrepreneurialism, that yield, you mentioned 20 lanes, it might be the partnership needs 25, you know? I don't know and that is something you don't know at this point and time. Lavey: One of the things that we did do, pardon me, was space does limit how big we can make it and that is one of the things that we did look at. Rountree: I understand, but to me that is part of your plan, that is part of your analysis. With respect to sound, I think you will find that you can get a thumbnail idea of what the sound is going to be probably for free from your vendor. I would not expend a lot of money doing that right now because sound is an issuing that you can engineer out. In the ambient sound you get today might not be the Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 24 of 28 ambient level you get in a year. So, really the $8,000 is really good for a point in time. So, I would say if we get beyond this exploratory stage that is when we invest the money in that. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this and I think you have done a grand job. There are some steps that I think you need to do to put a nice package together and get a bow on it so all of the bases are covered from the planning aspect and your plan quite frankly needs to include a financial plan; how you are going to go about it - through general fund revenues and partnerships and possibly the entrepreneurial piece to pay for it and if it's going to be a better facility for three million dollars, then build a case that we can do it for $2.5, but three would be something that takes us 50 years, it is a benefit to the youth, the partners and might very well be a benefit to some of the citizens because we are in a community where citizens are outdoor folks and would appreciate an opportunity to have a facility like this. I don't mean any of those to be critical, I am just trying to be helpful. Let's make sure that we do a really good analysis so I am not gun shy again. Lavey: No and I thank you. I wanted some direction from the Council because it is taking a great deal of time and I didn't want to expend that amount of time into something that you say you know you are crazy, we don't want to do that. So, I can take that and go forth with it. Rountree: Mr. President one other point and I don't know if state police still has it, but when they were investigating their site, they were very much inclined to think that they wanted to put a range similar to what you are talking about there and we did some initial noise analysis for them. I don't know if they still have that or not, but you might make a contact there - Mike Prentice was the guy that was doing it, but Mike is no longer with them, but somebody over there might have the initial study that they put together when they did site planning and that would give you an idea of some of the numbers we came up with. Lavey: That is when they built the Pleasant Valley Range? Rountree: Yeah. Wardle: Okay, thank you Council and just for information one of the things that the department needed was some direction as to whether this was something that they needed to begin including in the capital improvements plan. Sounds to me like the answer was yes, but we needed some additional answers, a financial plan certainly, Lieutenant I would certainly - De Weerd: It is in the CIP, isn't it? Rountree: I don't remember seeing it. But, Mr. President, Lieutenant or Bill, either one is it in your capital improvements plan for the city at this point? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 25 of 28 Musser: Councilman Rountree, Members of the Council currently within our capital improvement plan we did include a range as part of the impact fee study with an initial base analysis on that, so we do have that accommodated. It would have to be some match funding come in from an additional capital improvement standpoint to meet that necessary requirement there. I have had some initial talks with Stacey on that to see where we need to line up and I am sure we could sit down and get that financial plan put together so it is quite a bit better than where we are at today. Also, just as a matter of the record here. In the talks with the consultant that we have looked at, we already have received at least I received a verbal on it that the noise abatement would be much less than what we currently hear at the Interstate right now - baffled the way it was and this is just after he completed one for Ada County at the proposed open site. Because what I had asked for was something that was semi-enclosed that we still had some natural airflow through to help us continue to mitigate air issues within the facility so that is why we were looking at the baffled structure in order to reduce and engineer out the noise and provide additional protection especially with Jabil and State Police and other things around us to the south. Wardle: Thanks Lieutenant, certainly I would be available to help you with that business planning. I have done one or two on the private side. Lavey: I was going to use you as a resource. Wardle: Thank you very much. Thanks, Chief. Madame Mayor I am going to ask If I can intrude upon your meeting for just a moment and move to Item 5. I know it is 7:00, but would that be okay with you? Mr. Nary, I apologize I moved our meeting up a half hour to 5:30 and it wasn't quite enough time. Item 5. Discussion of Establishment of Arts Commission Ordinance: Nary: Mr. President, Madame Mayor and Members of the Council I will take a lot less time than the police just did. Let me hand out to you real quickly a handout the ordinance that was listed on your agenda for discussion as well as two additional ordinances for you to review and we will bring them back at a future date. One of them is the Art's Commission that we previously discussed. Your request was to bring that back for further discussion. The only thing that has changed from the draft you had previously seen was the Commission make up this draft - make up the Commission could be a minimum of five, up to nine members. It doesn't have a fixed amount. Some of you might prefer a fixed amount. That is your discretion. If you want me to change that, that is perfectly fine. I added a provision that would allow one member up to two that are at large, that aren't necessarily residents of the city. There may be people in the arts community that would like to be a part of the Commission and could lend that level of expertise to this Commission, but may not necessarily be city residents and since the nature of this Commission is a little different than some of the other types that we have, it may make some sense to allow for that type of Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 26 of 28 membership. There is a cleanup language there about a member of the Council would then serve as a liaison and an ex-officio member of the Commission. So, take some time to review it. If you have some questions tonight I would be happy to answer them. We would like to bring it back in a couple of weeks in front of you. We could put it on for either another Pre-Council discussion; we could put it on for a department report and discussion during your regular agenda; we could have it on as a discussion item or first reading on your agenda to give some opportunity for any other input before we get to a final ordinance - whatever your preference is, is fine. The other two are merely just for discussion purposes tonight. You probably remember we had a discussion a long time ago about u- turns. We had this discussion with traffic safety and went through a couple of different gyrations with it and this is now ready to be brought back in front of you. I am just passing it out tonight. It wasn't on the agenda for discussion, just for you to have some opportunity to review it before we bring it back for a more formal discussion and the last one that I handed out is some cleanup we have to the Meridian City Code regarding dog licenses. There is some additional language we are going to have to do in regards to the cost of licensing for vicious dogs. We have already added the vicious dogs to our ordinance if you recall. Again, we will bring this back in a week or two either at a Pre-Council session if that is your preference or however you want this brought back in front of you for further discussion we can do that. Mr. President if there is questions I can answer tonight, if not I just seek your direction on when to bring it back. Wardle: Thank you Mr. Nary. Mr. Bird? Bird: I just have got a couple of questions. I think we need to - I don't like floating membership. I think we need to either make it five, seven or nine and my one suggestion, too, is I think that it is great that we have a youth on our Commission, but I think that seat should be a one-year appointment because most of the time you get one year and then they are either gone to college or they are not interested or something. That is my only two things and I would suggest that it is brought forward on a department report from the law and let's get it passed. Wardle: Thank you Mr. Bird. Mr. Rountree? Rountree: I would like an opportunity to look at them, but my quick glance looks like they are fairly straightforward. I don't necessarily agree with Mr. Bird's comment about floating memberships, but we can talk about that when we debate the ordinance. It seems to me that there might be an occasion when we want to have an expert from an unknown city area, if we are talking about a performing art thing or a way to identify public space art and that sort of thing. I can see it both ways, but I like the flexibility. Wardle: My specific comment to that is that I also like the flexibility within the ordinance - it leaves it to the membership and the Councils' discretion. I do Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 27 of 28 agree with Mr. Bird about the youth member of that Commission that a one-year term is certainly, I would think, the maximum - allows them the opportunity to participate, but it gives a good term there. Mr. Rountree? Rountree: I guess this brings up another question and I hate to put the shoes on of a previous board I worked for, but I am going to do it anyway and no rush on this, but we haven't seen the report yet specifically about the youth's participation in the various committees and what is the success rate and are we getting something out of it or are they, the one committee I am familiar with had a one- day participation and that was it. So, from my perspective I don't know what is going on with the rest of it. I am kind of interested to find out what the participation rate is and some kind of input and that is totally off the subject, but we can add that to some future date. De Weerd: Oh, I can tell you right now. Last year it was only on Meridian's Promise and the Anti-Drug Coalition. That is where their interests lie. This year they have designed representatives, but as meetings had been canceled and rescheduled, their schedules have - and there are a couple of them that do a last minute meeting during the weekday or during work hours and they have a hard time getting there during school hours. So, we need to also look at when we set our time. But, they have been really good participants on Meridian's Promise and the Anti-Drug Coalition and tomorrow - (Tape turned over) De Weerd: -- (inaudible) interests. Rountree: Thank you. Wardle: Thank you Mr. Nary. I believe I heard the consensus of the department report to bring these forward? Bird: Yes. Rountree: Yes. Wardle: I will note for the record that the Legal Department's Pre-Council item was about 15 percent of the Police Department's just this once. Nary: Thank you Mr. President I appreciate that. Wardle: Council that brings us to the end of our Pre-Council agenda. I would entertain a motion to adjourn. Bird: So moved. Rountree: Second. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting November 14, 2006 Page 28 of 28 Wardle: It has been moved and seconded to adjourn the Pre-Council meeting. All in favor. THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:05 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ~.. TAMMY EERD MAy~\\\lllI"!(I'.i'I;, , \ \ ;..x; MEf.,*,~, i> ,,-' ....J v', ~~(. ',(.~ /,,>.... <, "" ...... ~ 4 ',' 2' CJ.'rOIt..1.....' "!,' -<..... ~ Z<00-::' - ... - ... /2--- /1'1 / fJ6 DATE APPROVED