HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994-11-21
MERIDIAN PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION
NOVEMBER 21, 1994
The Special Workshop of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission was called to
order by Chairman Jim John at 5:30 P.M.:
MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Hepper, Charlie Rountree, Jim Shearer, Moe Alidjani:
OTHERS PRESENT: Wayne Crookston, Gary Smith, Will Berg, Shari Stiles:
Johnson: For the record this is a special meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning
Commission, a special workshop to discuss the Zoning and Subdivision Ordinance at
City Hall, Monday, November 21, 1994 at 5:30. I think what we will do is start the
discussion and let Wayne Crookston lead us through his comments (inaudible).
Crookston: (Inaudible) are comments that I have not specifically addressed (inaudible)
Comp Plan. (Inaudible) that the final plat (inaudible) the way we seem to do things,
there are so many changes that are made to plats after the preliminary has been
approved, but case law is that the preliminary plat controls. I think we either need to
start putting everything in order before the final plat is approved or direct me to look
into it if there is a possibility that we can change it to the final plat.
Johnson: So are you suggesting maybe we are not (inaudible) the preliminary plat?
Crookston: I think so.
Johnson: Because we ought to do that the same night we do the annexation and
zoning. We are either looking at an additional step there which is going to be a delay
to the developer or we are looking at a change to let the final plat control, is that kind of
what you are saying? Those are the 2 options (inaudible)
Crookston: Yes, and we will probably actually better off to have the preliminary plat
control but get it right when we are doing it.
Johnson: (Inaudible) what you are saying is a common problem is it not Gary?
Smith: Yes
Johnson: The final plat doesn't look like the preliminary plat often when we are
finished?
Smith: Sometimes Mr. Chairman, and I guess my thoughts on the preliminary plat
would be that there are some things that will show up on the preliminary plat that do not
necessarily show up on the final plat. Such as berming, location of perimeter fences,
some of these improvements that need to be made to the project don't show up on the
final plat. The final plat is really a survey document, that is what its intent is.
Johnson: Okay, so what is the reason that information doesn't get carried forward to
the final plat? Is there intent to leave it off?
Smith: The final plat is a survey document and should be kept as a survey document.
It shouldn't have all the information on it that a preliminary plat does have. Because,
the final plat, its primary use is as a survey document. We have a tendency to want to
put all of these things on the final plat but all it does is confuse the whole thing and
cloud it. It really, I think Wayne is absolutely right, I think there needs to be more final
control on the preliminary plat.
Johnson: We are looking at it from a policing standpoint, let's say if these things are in
fact being done as the developer says they will be or the agreement says they will.
You are saying our (inaudible) should be the preliminary plat or whoever is doing that
policing. (Inaudible) and that should be the document.
Rountree: My question is on terminology, we are calling it a preliminary plat, but we
are basically looking at a drawing that represents the plan of the development. A lot of
the platting information, but not all the final plat information from an engineering and
legal standpoint. So, should we maybe look at defining preliminary plat as something
less than what is required to file in a court house from a platting stand point. What we
need to, you need to carry on with the development of the development agreement on
that particular property. That is what Gary is saying is not there, we are not seeing
berms, we are not seeing fencing and setbacks, we are not seeing tiling ditches, we are
not seeing the conceptual entrances, the gating and that kind of stuff on a final plat.
You wouldn't because it has a prescribed set of things it has to do from an engineering
and land surveying point of view. We are looking at the preliminary and it is a concept
we are approving for a development.
Smith: Part of the final plat process is the development of the improvement plans for
the subdivision. And those improvement plans consist of the streets, sewer, water,
storm drain, piping of irrigation ditches. All of that really needs to be required on the
preliminary plat. And our ordinance presently says that 4 sets of conceptual
engineering plans are required for preliminary plat which we have never really pursued
or required. We have allowed that to be placed in a plan view concept on the
preliminary plat itself. I think that I am going to start requiring it by the ordinance and
make those a part of the preliminary plat submittal because so many times we get
through this preliminary plat where you have all your public testimony, your public
hearing and you don't have that in your final plat stage. You need to get all of that
stuff ironed out in that preliminary plat process. When you get to the final plat, it
should be a relatively simple step that the final plat is pretty much a mirror image of
what was proposed in the preliminary plat. The actual hundredth of a foot dimensions
on the boundary, the bearings of different lines and so forth. The legal description, an
actual final legal description is now finalized on that final plat. But everything leading
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 3
up to that final plat has been resolved and taken care of in a preliminary manner, but it
is still taken care of it is addressed.
Shearer: Can't we take care of most of that without delaying the process by when we
send the attorney to do findings of facts, at that time review the preliminary plat which
we usually have in front of us not always but usually. Review the preliminary plat at
that time and instruct the engineers on what we want in addition or changes or
whatever and then review the preliminary plat again at the time that we go through the
findings of fact at the next meeting.
Johnson: (Inaudible) conditions or changes are implemented?
Shearer: Right, but not delay the process. Review it at the time that we have our,
right after we have our hearing put in things that we want that are obvious and have
them correct that preliminary plat for the next meeting which we will approve the
findings of fact at that time and again review the preliminary plat and if everything, if
they have everything in order at that time approve it and we are done with it. If for
some reason they don't have everything or we discover we something else we need we
can delay. But I hate to put anymore time delays in these things then we have to. It
seems like we can double up there.
Johnson: (Inaudible) another 30 day period until the findings of fact are reviewed
which would give them time to (inaudible) with our special meetings sometimes they
don't get the full 30 days (inaudible).
Shearer: If they only give our attorney a week or 2 weeks or 3 weeks to get the
findings of fact done then we only get (inaudible).
Johnson: So, what kind of time frame would we want for that to be done for the
findings of fact, to give us time (inaudible).
Hepper: If you tell an engineer he has to put in a street stub and show fences and
change the berms and layouts of all of that stuff and you are going to review it before
the next meeting he is not going to get it to you until the meeting or 3 days (inaudible).
Rountree: What is the notice requirement on that, it would have to be available to
public (inaudible) as well.
Shearer: (Inaudible)
Crookston: One of the things that Gary and I talked a little bit about was requiring that
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 4
the annexation be done before they can even submit a plat. Our ordinance now says
that we are supposed to give it as much of a one stop shop approach as possible. But
we get turned around and it is not just the Commission but the Council. They take
action on the annexation and zoning and sometimes they forget to act on the plat.
Johnson: We have done that on occasion ourselves.
Crookston: It is a problem for the developer because everything is not submitted at
once that they want to get to done (Inaudible) but on the other hand if it is not annexed
and zoned I don't (inaudible) go to the expense of doing the platting on the chance that
it might be denied.
Shearer: I think those things have to be up the developer. If the developer opts to
pursue this thing and get it done in a hurry then I think we could double up and when
that thing comes in we can have our hearing, look at the plat make suggestions on the
plat and so on so at the next meeting it can go through in a real fast and timely manner.
Now, we are going to have ones in which these things are not going to come out right
and they are going to have to be delayed, there are some of them that are going to take
another month. But, I think we ought to do everything we can to process them, and if
the engineer can't get the plat done for the next meeting that is his problem not ours. I
don't have to worry about him getting it done, he has to worry about that. What I need
to worry about is us getting the thing through our process.
Alidjani: In a way I disagree with Jim, I feel that sometimes we have done things
(inaudible) the houses are developed, the subdivision is put together, the curbs and
gutter are there but (inaudible) the fencing never did get done until a lady came out of
the subdivision, already was living in a house for 6 months or maybe longer. She
brought it to our attention that (inaudible). So I believe if somebody wishes to go and
develop (inaudible) develop that to something better they can pay the price (inaudible).
They should wait (inaudible) and it should be done properly. I believe many times as
we have all discussed (inaudible) I have personally (inaudible) on Planning and Zoning
I have probably 80% of the preliminary plats have been approved by me and only
maybe 20% of the final plat. I believe that what Gary is saying is right, it is as
important on the preliminary as it is on the final plat. Why should we make a decision
that later on the egg is on our face in the beginning just because somebody wants to
push it through.
Shearer: The start of that problem was not in Planning and Zoning or City Council,
that was in the mechanics of not having enough City employees to make sure they
were doing what they were supposed to be doing.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 5
Alidjani: There are many of these problems falling through the crack, I understand
that, but still if we think we have done our homework maybe we can drop the
percentages that would fall in the crack. I believe, I agree with Gary, one time we had
a great discussion me and Gary that he perceived that we agree with things that he
said but later on we changed our mind and that is not true. The man promises he is
going to do it and we promise we are going to do it, we talk about putting them on a
computer, we talked (inaudible) individual spot. All the documents from number 1 to
whatever, the things he is supposed to do before we approve them. They don't do it
we don't catch it, nobody else catches it and it goes through and we really look bad out
there. I think it is important for some of the detail that is supposed to be done is part of
the system and they had better get it done. If they don't' get it done (inaudible).
Johnson: I think we have to be able to (inaudible) and have the work (inaudible).
People like Gary and Shari and the staff here and what they are telling will make their
job better and they will be able to do a more thorough job (inaudible). I don't want to
spend all night on this one item, but maybe Gary can tell me why we haven't been
asking for the 4 copies or whatever, its just something that we got away from or never
did. Why is it in the ordinance to begin with, that probably goes back years and years
I would assume.
Smith: It does
Johnson: We either follow the ordinance or we change the ordinance (inaudible).
(Inaudible) with regard to the preliminary plat because, do we want to make a decision
right now on what the plat (inaudible) which way we want to go on it. Wayne is going to
have to refine all of these off the minutes of tonight's meeting.
Stiles: I would like to keep it as a preliminary but require them to make the changes
that are requested in the findings instead of them getting to the final plat and submit
exactly what they submitted at the preliminary and they say well it was approved, you
approved our preliminary plat. But they don't even look at the findings to see what
those conditions were and that the findings may actually require a complete re-platting.
Crookston: The problem is that is why I say (inaudible) be better to have the platting
segregated from the zoning and annexation because we get bogged down, quite
frankly we get bogged down in the annexation and zoning process with platting
information which has nothing to do with the annexation and zoning. That flows over
vice-versa and we get bogged down with the annexation and zoning information when
we are dealing with the platting. We don't do findings on the plats.
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November 21, 1994
Page 6
Stiles: But they address items about the plat.
Crookston: They do, but that is because we deal with them all at the same time.
Hepper: So, if we did the zoning and annexation before the plat (inaudible) some
special item like square footage or something like that that is different than the City
ordinance don't we give up our leverage with the developer or whatever if we want to
have a 1500 square foot minimum and he already has his zoning all he has to do is put
in 1400 if we require 1500 (inaudible) already has his zoning.
Johnson: He has his zoning with no conditions. So it takes away (inaudible).
Hepper: We always have fences and berms, there are special circumstances on every
project. It seems like the neighbors come in (inaudible) have a little more depth or a
little more frontage or something like that. If he already has his zoning he can
(inaudible) all I have to do is meet City ordinance.
Alidjani: Yes, but Tim, isn't it also true that at the time of the first hearing for
annexation and zoning we get all this information, we express our feeling whatever that
might be, 1600 or (inaudible) and that would reflect on the findings of fact and
conclusions of law and he has to comply with his preliminary plat with that finding?
Hepper: But he already has his zoning.
Alidjani: No, he hasn't yet, his zoning comes up with the findings of fact and
conclusions of law, that all the conversation that we had or the concern we had and if
my concern or your concern had been a 2400 square feet and it is reflected on the
findings of fact that night when we approve that his preliminary plat has to follow the
guideline of the findings, is that true?
Hepper: Yes, except the public (inaudible) to look at the preliminary plat. That one
on Locust Grove (inaudible) buffer a 1 acre subdivision if there was no preliminary plat
we wouldn't have any idea that the developer had already proposed to do that or
whatever.
Shearer: I think we would get an awful lot of dissatisfaction from the public where they
would not be able to comment on the plat itself. That is the first question they ask
when they come in, what are they planning to do and if we are just going through with
no preliminary plat or anything you are really cutting out the public's input. I think we
really (inaudible).
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November 21, 1994
Page 7
Rountree: (Inaudible) unacceptable platting process (inaudible).
Johnson: It would have to be a (inaudible).
Rountree: You couldn't create the development plan or a subdivision preliminary plat
for that particular annexation and the annexation would be reversed or denied or
whatever (inaudible).
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Rountree: I agree with what he is saying, we talk about basically annexation, we don't
talk about the annexation issues. Is it consistent with the Comp Plan is it something
we want to have. We talk about lot sizes and house sizes and a transition and that
kind of stuff. I think we can come up with some kind of condition to say (inaudible). If
you can't come to us with something that is going to benefit the City of Meridian in a
plan, we generally agree it should be this, it could be this zone, but if you can't come up
with something in that zone we lied (inaudible).
Johnson: R-8 with duplexes (inaudible).
Shearer: You are cutting out the public's opportunity to comment on these things.
Rountree: They'd have an opportunity to comment.
Crookston: (Inaudible) on the plat.
Shearer: We never hold a hearing strictly on the plat.
Rountree: Yes we do
Shearer: So, what you are saying is we hold a hearing one time on the annexation
and then we hold another meeting and have a hearing on the plat? Or do we separate
them and do it at the same meeting.
Rountree: I guess my observation that the public hearing on the annexation should be
a reflection of what the public feels about that piece of property and how it impacts
them and their backyards. That then be taken by the developer and factored into what
he proposes to do with the subdivision. And then that is the (inaudible) the next time.
Shearer: I know, pretty soon we are looking at a year to get a plat through.
Rountree: At that point you are looking at 2 meetings. Right now we are looking at 2
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 8
meetings.
Shearer: How do you get 2 meetings out of that? We have one meeting for the
annexation, we have the next meeting for a hearing for the plat.
Johnson: You have the findings at the same time.
Shearer: Then your findings won't reflect the plat unless you go to another meeting
and you are talking another month.
(Inaudible)
Berg: You can realistically approve the plat after the public hearing.
Johnson: There are no findings on the plat.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: All we do is pass on a favorable recommendation.
(Inaudible)
Johnson: You wouldn't (inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: If things came up on the plat and needed to be changed the
recommendation of the City would be provided these changes are made do pass or
don't pass or do approve or don't approve.
Stiles: I am just afraid once it is zoned all they need to do is come in with a plat that is
8,000 square feet, 1400 square foot homes that that is it. You don't have any legal
basis to deny the plat.
Rountree: If we don't like what can happen in a zoning then we shouldn't be
recommending that it be zoned.
Stiles: That is why you have been requesting that they submit a plat before you
recommend the zone, right?
(Inaudible)
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November 21, 1994
Page 9
Rountree: At least a concept, if they can establish their perimeters in a concept that
is fine with me.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Johnson: I think we are kind of coming to an agreement here and perhaps the section
(inaudible).
Shearer: I am against delaying it another 30 days as long as it is a good clean
operation I think that we can, if we have the public hearing on the plat at the same time
we have the annexation and so on which we have been doing that at that meeting we
can kind of review that plat after the hearing with the developer and tell them the things
that we need that are obvious. Then they can bring that preliminary plat up to date and
bring it back at the same meeting we have our findings of fact and then unless
something else has come up which that may be the case in that case we would go
another 30 days, but if it is a good clean, if they have everything that we want and
everything we can approve it just like we have been doing and go on and get out of
there. These things, it drives me nuts how long it takes things to get done to get things
through the government. Now I don't think 60 days is unreasonable at all for this, in
fact I think it is probably for this type operation I think it is probably very good and
highly thought of and I would like to keep it that way as much as possible.
Crookston: One thing that I think would help and that is which I think we need to do
regardless of the process, we need to separate the hearing for annexation and zoning
from the plat hearing. Two hearings (inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: That would probably be smart.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: That will put a lot of strain on the chairman keeping the first bunch lined up
that we are not talking about in the public hearing.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: That doesn't bother me at all.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 10
Johnson: I would like to move on.
Crookston: What I hear is to come up with a process (inaudible)
Johnson: I think what we have come up with, correct me if I am wrong. We want to
look more closely at the preliminary plat, that is the reason for breaking it out and if
there is anyway of doing that without delaying the procedure that is (inaudible). But
just so that we do a better job on the preliminary plat, is that kind of what we are saying
Gary?
Smith: Yes
Shearer: I don't have any problem, if there is something wrong with the thing kick it
back a month.
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Crookston: It could be or you could hold it until the findings are adopted.
Shearer: And say that we would like to see these changes.
Hepper: (Inaudible) and then the next meeting those changes would be reflected in
the findings of fact. And that is when we vote on the findings of fact.
Shearer: I think we ought to have a revised plat if there are any revised (inaudible)
changes.
Hepper: (Inaudible) vote on approving the findings of fact, because that is what I think
we should do, we should find out before pass on it (inaudible).
Johnson: Otherwise (inaudible) Let's move on to the development agreement.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: The question is whether or not we want to have in the development
agreement that the City (inaudible) they don't do it then the city may do it.
Johnson: The City may do it and bill them accordingly (inaudible).
Shearer: We might end up owning the subdivision.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 11
Smith: Mr. Chairman, there is a provision in our ordinance that requires that the
developer issue a lean against the property in the favor of the City of Meridian to
guarantee the improvements are completed. We have never, to my knowledge, we
haven't required that of the developer, a lean on the property. I don't know if
(inaudible) or not.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: It could be like someone not paying their bill (inaudible). Bonds are kind of
hard, as I understand it is a little hard to go after a bond. The bonding company will
start a battle against payment of the bond.
Johnson: (Inaudible) and you are right (inaudible).
Crookston: The County (inaudible) is that you don't get your final plat until unless you
have completed the improvements or have bonded them.
Alidjani: And they collect their bond real easily, I just paid one. I just personally paid
one they collected very easily.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: And that is kind of what we have been doing on our plats in maybe an informal
way. If the requirement for pressurized irrigation if that hasn't been completely
installed or if it hasn't been started then we require a bond for the cost of that
installation, whatever percentage of it is not complete. We require a letter of credit for
the street lights. We require a letter of credit or a bond for the fence, if a perimeter
fence has been required. So we are trying to do that to guarantee that these
improvements are completed so that we don't have another Maws Addition incident
come up.
Johnson: There are really 3 ways to satisfy that (inaudible) letter of credit or bond.
(Inaudible) which is the same thing. (Inaudible). I think those tools ought to be used
(inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Does the City desire to have any (inaudible)
Johnson: Less density
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 12
Crookston: Or does the City want to have subdivisions put in (inaudible).
Johnson: Okay, we really have 2 topics there in one. One is the density
requirements, we recently added R-2 and R-3, R-4, R-8, R-15 and R-40, what is your
feeling on that?
Alidjani: My feeling is that one time we talked about there is nothing wrong (inaudible).
We do have an area such as Meridian Greens as an example, the lots are 1/2 acre or
larger. I think we should have R-2 or R-3 that it would basically require a 1/2 acre per
lot or 1/3 acre per lot (inaudible) protect number 1 the subdivision that already exists
and they have had that kind of choice. (Inaudible) Doris Addition that we have an area
that are all 1 acre tract and we can follow at least close by. And then for the parks and
so far, there is one question that I wrote down here that it says (inaudible) parking in all
subdivisions, but their easement for access. How big a subdivision is a subdivision?
We have Lansbury, Waterbury, a few of them that are just a strip of street and a 1400
foot of lawn and they have probably 20 houses or 15 houses on each side. So I think
we had better get some definition of what is a subdivision and how many houses or a
limit of how many houses or (inaudible).
Shearer: Where are we legally with requiring (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Hepper: Part of the problem I have always had with the parks part is if you have a 300
lot subdivision that is 100 acres (inaudible) common area or park. So if he has to
dedicate land to a park area why doesn't the guy that has 30 lots or the guy that has 3
lots, why (inaudible) the other guys don't. Where do you draw the line? Right now it
is real random, whatever (inaudible).
Rountree: (Inaudible) are we asking the developers to provide the space (inaudible).
The only question is (inaudible).
Johnson: I think you have to leave yourself a lot of flexibility when you are talking
about parks and recreation. (Inaudible) in my opinion whether you want to say
something 100 lots or more I would rather leave something like that on a case by case
basis. I don't know if that would work.
Rountree: (Inaudible)
Johnson: What we don't want is a lot of parks, small parks that the City has to take
care of.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 13
Shearer: Not only that, you require too much of that stuff and somebody is going to
challenge you in court and I think it is going (inaudible) without compensation.
Rountree: We do have that percentage requirement in PD for open space, I like that
concept I think of the subdivision. Whether it is a wide boulevard or (inaudible)
between the street and sidewalk, just whatever to give some elbow room in some of
these subdivisions we have 300 and 400 houses. But as far as requiring an acre for
every 75 lots (inaudible).
Hepper: (Inaudible) so he works with you. The next guy says I am not going to give
you 1 foot (inaudible). It seems like there should be some kind of a guide line.
Shearer: I think you get into hard requirements you are going to end up in court as far
as parks.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I don't think there is any problem with saying 10% open space period.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Johnson: Have we kind of agreed at this point that we don't feel we need any change
of the density requirement, we are living with what we have got pretty well. Where
would it benefit us to make a change?
Stiles: Are you talking about the lot density transfer?
Johnson: We are talking about zoning (inaudible).
Crookston: 48" tile or greater. The position of the Council is that if it is 48" or larger
than don't tile.
Johnson: And the reason for that as I understand it is (inaudible).
Crookston: It was expense, but it was also the statement from Nampa Meridian that
you have as much or more of a safety problem with tiling and the grates.
Rountree: Who made that determination on the 48"?
Smith: It was Nampa Meridian's recommendation.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 14
Rountree: Are we going to have people coming in that have 30" pipe requirements that
got somebody to stamp a plan sheet that it needs a 48" tile so they don't have to tile it?
Smith: I think that decision needs to be made jointly between the City Engineer, the
project engineer for the development and or the irrigation district if an irrigation district
is involved. Typically on these large ditches an irrigation drainage district is involved
with the large ditches. So I think that combined between those 3 should be able to
verify.
Johnson: That in effect is what we are doing now?
Smith: Right, the other thing I would like to mention on this Wayne if I may. There are
several ditches that run through the City of Meridian that require a larger diameter pipe
than 48". I just wonder if we should specify those in the ordinance that those ditches
are not to be piped that they are to be fenced. Name them as Five Mile Creek, Ten
Mile Creek, Nine Mile Creek, and the Eight Mile Lateral. Those four ditches we know
are drainages.
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Smith: That is part of it yes.
Crookston: The Five Mile has much less water than the Eight Mile Lateral.
Smith: Not if there is a 100 year flood than a 48 inch pipe won't carry it. But you are
right on most days it will. You are right, part of that designation would have to do with
them being open drains and their actual functioning as a subsurface drain. I think we
also need to specify in this part of the ordinance that these open ditches shall be
fenced with a non-combustible fence. I don't think right now anywhere in our
ordinance do we talk about fencing the ditches. There used to be a provision in our
ordinance for fencing of ditches. The combustibility of this fence always seems to be
an issue because of the irrigation districts need to maintain them which may involve
burning of ditches.
Stiles: What is this 48", is it written anywhere?
Smith: No
Stiles: Was 60" written anywhere?
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 15
(End of Tape)
Hepper: (Inaudible) manholes rather than the actual length of the run of the pipe.
Smith: And in most instances that is probably a reasonable approach to it. If we have
the sewer line in the lower area adjacent to the drain than typically we will have an
access road or the irrigation district will have an access road that we will share so we
don't have that problem.
(Inaudible)
Smith: On a line less than 18" 400 feet you get above an 18" and you go to 500.
Hepper: (Inaudible) the sewer line runs across the back of their lots (inaudible) you
could have access stubs go into (inaudible).
Smith: As long as we can get our equipment in there and at this point our equipment is
not totally unmanageable but it is a (inaudible) trailer that you have to wheel around
with a pick up. So you have to be able to get to it, that thing is a little more difficult than
just driving right up to it with a unit that has the equipment right on it and it is
self-contained, this is a two piece deal.
(Inaudible)
Smith: You can't drive up to it, you have to back up to it, if that is what is being
provided for access.
Crookston: What I have down here is that it would be graveled (inaudible).
Smith: I think we can look at that, I guess I am being a lot more sympathetic than I
used to be about it. We used to have real problems in getting access to the older
sewer lines and we are building concrete pipes, short lengths of concrete pipes and
had problems maintaining grades, tree roots really impacted their alignments and
getting into repair and replace pipe when you had to go through somebody's yard and
cut down their trees and dig up their prize rose bushes, it was a very traumatic thing for
the homeowner and those feelings were transferred to the City.
Johnson: We all mellow with age, right?
Crookston: (Inaudible) we have discussed the next one (inaudible) it is on the
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 16
approval of splitting the preliminary and the annexation and zoning. We have talked
about the CC&R's basically for residential we want them. (Inaudible) A legal
description must be prepared by an Idaho licensed Land Surveyor, we have passed a
resolution to that effect.
Stiles: And that a disc be supplied.
Shearer: Isn't that State Law?
Rountree: For the plat it is.
Berg: Not until you get the ordinance prepared.
Rountree: They need it so they can get a decent ordinance.
Smith: That is where the problem has come in at the annexation ordinance, the legal
descriptions that are submitted have, a lot of cases have been garbage. You end up
sending it back to them and having it revised. We have to go through and revise and
rewrite them. I am not a registered land surveyor, I am not even supposed to be doing
that. Most of them that we get are written by, they are either a copy of the warranty
deed, they are a deed that has been written by a banker or an attorney or a real estate
person. Some of them just really need some help. You get a licensed land surveyor
(inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I would just like to make sure that when we expand this these (inaudible) and
conditional use that everything here is identified here is also defined. And that there
are probably some additions (inaudible) lots of things that we could add to this. And
that if they are not a permitted use then state that they are not permitted or leave them
completely out.
Crookston: Onto the next page, just a thought, when we have to change the process,
change the duties of the Commission, they approve applications that do not require
ordinances be adopted or that require (inaudible). I have no, I have not discussed this
with (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: There already is an appeal process procedure isn't there?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 17
Crookston: There is an appeal process procedure but what our ordinance is that the
Commission only makes recommendations. So if they get to the Council even though
they have been denied.
Berg: We need a stronger decision making ordinance for the City Planning and Zoning
Commission.
Stiles: So basically they are continuing to go on for another public hearing and the
Council is their appeal.
Hepper: So you are saying if we denied it that is the end of it right there (inaudible).
Crookston: (Inaudible) appeal process. What I would suggest is if they appeal and the
Council approves of the appeal it still goes back then to the Commission and have a
recommendation for (inaudible).
Shearer: Now you are saying we can't approve anything but we can deny it. I would
just as soon send it on and let them deal with it with a recommendation.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: I think there are some applications you could deny.
Hepper: (Inaudible) like what? (Inaudible)
Crookston: Right now you could deny the accessory use (inaudible).
Stiles: Because that doesn't even go on to the Council.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Whether or not you even want to get into basically where you are in
position where you could stop the process (inaudible). I don't think that the Planning
Act says one thing or the other.
Johnson: What is the benefit there, saving the City Council time.
Crookston: That plus, (inaudible)
Johnson: I understand that (inaudible) clearing up the calendar for the City, why else
would you do it.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 18
(Discussion Inaudible)
Johnson: The appeal process has to remain in place. Conceivably some would go
(inaudible).
Berg: The appeal process costs them (inaudible) and time.
Johnson: Money and time
Berg: So they have to decide whether to appeal it or to come back to the P & Z with
the right things with the things that you asked for.
Johnson: Other jurisdictions put you right into the appeal process and it is money out
of your pocket (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Johnson: I wouldn't have a problem either way, does anyone have any real strong
feelings either way?
Shearer: I would just as soon do it the way we have been doing it with a
recommendation and let them handle it.
Rountree: One thing Jim pointed out to me (inaudible)
Johnson: I think that is a good point. In other words the only real power we have is
(inaudible).
Stiles: Then everybody would be coming to the Commission for their little private
meetings trying to change their mind instead of the Council.
Rountree: They do now.
Johnson: It sounds to me like we have a consensus (inaudible).
Berg: What is the decision of tabling what does that really do?
Johnson: Usually that is not our problem when the tabling comes up.
Berg: (Inaudible) approving or denying it goes to the City Council the same way.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 19
Johnson: It comes back to us.
Rountree: It comes back to us until we release it.
Johnson: When we table it, it doesn't go anywhere. It stays with until we (inaudible).
Stiles: I think it is just a recommendation for tabling.
Berg: And what do you do with the recommendation from the P & Z, you send it on to
the City Council.
(Inaudible)
Johnson: Basically we are just saying we have incomplete information (inaudible). A
lot of our tabling requests are originated by the developer. They come to us and say
table this item (inaudible). We get a lot of letters like that.
Shearer: That is just a parliamentary procedure type thing.
Stiles: I think we have a lot of things tabled go onto City Council.
Johnson: No, only if we release them at the next meeting. We table an item and
nothing goes to City Council, to my knowledge it has never happened.
Stiles: But if the findings recommend you table it still goes on.
Shearer: No, because he always make us put a date on when it is going to be heard
again by us.
Stiles: If that happens at the meeting, if you decide to table something there but if the
findings recommend something be tabled it still goes on.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: No, we just keep delaying and delaying we don't stop it.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Berg: (Inaudible) we table just until you come up with something (inaudible).
Johnson: No, because we want to save the applicant time if we think he has a losing
project, one that is not going to fly. I think we need to be able to say in the interest of
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 20
the City of Meridian we deny this application. (Inaudible) I think we save everybody
time if we do that, if somebody comes in with a cockamanee project that is not going to
fly.
Berg: I don't disagree with you, that is why I was saying that I think you should have
more power to do that. And they can pay for an appeal (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Crookston: The next one is to change the conflict of interest. Our conflict of interest
is out of the old statute, the new conflict of interest is much more lenient. (Inaudible).
Johnson: I am proposing (inaudible), ours is extremely restrictive to the point where
everybody that sits on Planning and Zoning at one time or another has a conflict of
interest because of the make up of our community. I think that is something to be
taken seriously and needs to be looked at.
Alidjani: Counselor, I have a question, in regard to that, is that correct that either a
state law or a federal law or both mandate in July of 1991 that if you have been hired
by an individual or received a paycheck or any kind in that nature than you are in fact in
conflict of interest with that project unless you are not an elected official, is that correct?
On the other hand since we are not an elected official we are not as much in a conflict
of interest as serious and restricted as the City Council and Mayor because they are
actually an elected official and we are not. We are nominated by the Mayor.
Crookston: To my knowledge, it makes no difference whether you are appointed or
elected.
Shearer: I can't see where that would make any difference just because I got $10,000
for 10 minutes of work.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible) for you, it goes this far, for you to declare what your conflict is to
the Commission and the Commission can ultimately say we don't care you can sit
anyway, but then you can still say that is fine, I appreciate your confidence in me but I
am not going to sit or you can say okay.
Johnson: (Inaudible) you can go back when somebody was compensated for
(inaudible). I would vote that we follow the state statute (inaudible). At this point I am
leaving, so I am going to turn the meeting over to Charlie Rountree.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 21
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: But it still goes onto Council so when does it happen that the Planning and
Zoning tables it? When does that ever happen?
Rountree: It happens every meeting.
Crookston: It happens lots of times.
Rountree: We have 2 or 3 things on the last agenda that were tabled from the
previous meeting.
Stiles: Public hearings?
Rountree: Public hearings.
Stiles: But see we are looking at these recommendations and you recommended an
application for annexation and zoning be tabled and if the applicant doesn't meet the
conditions to deny it. So, were you recommending that the City Council table it?
Rountree: No, we tabled it to let the applicant see if they were going to meet it and if
they met the conditions and they bring it back to us and we review it.
Shearer: If they want to take it like it is and the recommendation for denial they can
run with it.
Rountree: If they want to take it to the City then we recommend to the City that they
deny it.
Berg: Let me ask you this as far as a legal question then, you are giving them two
options either they table it and come back to you with the proper changes or they say
heck with you guys and they take it to the City Council with a denial. Let me ask you
this where does it come to me that I know what to do with it? I have so many days to
get a project processed through, so I am sitting here, did they accept the tabling or did
they accept the denial. Do I need (inaudible) this is what we do so I can start the
public hearing notifications for the next City Council meeting or do I find out that they
are going to move it along and come to you guys again with a new plat or presentation
or project. That is my question. I know you guys don't have to deal with that, but that is
what I have to deal with.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 22
Alidjani: So you are saying (inaudible) within so many days the applicant is required to
send a letter of acceptance of the tabling or acceptance of (inaudible).
Shearer: It is coming back to us.
Stiles: Well, like PNE and Packard.
Shearer: They are coming back to us?
Berg: How do you know that?
Rountree: They are.
Berg: I have not gotten notified of that.
Shearer: Let's move on, or we are not going to get all done tonight.
Rountree: I think that is probably (inaudible) something to trigger you so you know
whether to schedule it for the City or whether to maintain it.
Shearer: Just wait until they bring it back in.
Berg: Jim, I am telling you I don't just sit and wait on projects because then I get my
ass chewed by the other person, why did you do that. You are talking about getting
these projects through and so is the developer, they want to get the projects through.
If I hold off one day and not get a notice in the paper and that is another week which
means maybe another month.
Shearer: But they are not going for a hearing they are coming back to us.
Rountree: Keep that in mind when you write that for Will.
Berg: So those 2 then on Packard we did get some indication?
Rountree: They are coming back, that whole area in there is coming back.
Hepper: But in the future you still need to know.
Berg: The other PNE/Brown property is the same way.
Rountree: Yes
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 23
Berg: I will get those stricken off the public notice.
Stiles: So these people told somebody that they are coming back, how do we read their
minds?
Rountree: Told that guy and talked to me, they talked to you I think, did they talk to
you?
Stiles: Well, they need to talk to somebody (inaudible) Will has already signed them
up for (inaudible) Council.
Alidjani: Maybe what we need to do Will, to get you going is some kind of written
indication to you and the Chairman.
Rountree: That is what Wayne is going to do in the findings.
Berg: Let me know one way or another.
Rountree: By a date certain. Let's go on to add this (inaudible).
Crookston: We want to add Light Industrial and Heavy Industrial and (inaudible).
Rountree: Yes
Stiles: Do you want to call it heavy or general?
Crookston: Well that was a question, I didn't know whether or not we wanted to call it
heavy industrial whether or not we wanted to call it heavy industrial or just call it
industrial.
Rountree: My recommendation is to just call it industrial.
Stiles: With no light?
Rountree: No, have a light industrial and have something for that but everything else
is industrial.
Shearer: It might be confusing.
Crookston: We do have in our ordinance 2 definitions, one deals with light
manufacturing (inaudible). I basically took those definitions and worked them into
what I have got here.
Rountree: I have a question, we also have a light industrial ordinance, at least my
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 24
ordinance book does.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: It is item 14, light industrial.
Crookston: We have the light industrial district.
Stiles: That is this part here.
Crookston: What I have got goes into 408, it is not a definition (inaudible).
Stiles: So how do you go about changing those areas that are now light industrial to a
general industrial or a heavy industrial? When we have people coming in that want to
do a heavy industrial but they are in a light industrial and they say it was a permitted
use at the time I bought the property.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: There is no way around it.
Crookston: (Inaudible) grandfather rights if the use has been established. If it hasn't
been established we can (inaudible).
Rountree: So it is going to require a survey of some kind.
Alidjani: Wayne, don't we have that right now, you have light manufacturing, heavy
manufacturing or light industrial, heavy industrial.
Crookston: (Inaudible) all we have is a designation of light industrial. You go through
410 in my mind there are many that I would classify as heavy industrial (inaudible)
allowed but we have defined as a light industrial district.
Stiles: Such as solid waste transfer station and recycling plant.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Hepper: Back to Shari's comment, we took (inaudible) which is light and which is
heavy and try to define.
Stiles: We haven't changed anything.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 25
Rountree: No, but this would change along (inaudible).
Crookston: Bob Corrie gave me (inaudible).
Stiles: He gave me one of these.
Crookston: It changes the designation which is (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: I thought we did too way back in the oldie days.
Alidjani: Can I see that Shari?
Rountree: (Inaudible) we have a general agreement to go with these explanations of
those 2 districts? That is what you are asking for then right, 2 new districts light
industrial and heavy industrial (inaudible).
Crookston: We have light industrial but (inaudible).
Rountree: Change the language to talk about light manufacturing.
Stiles: So, some of those uses that have been changed that they wanted conditional
use could be permitted in (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Light Industrial could always go in heavy.
Crookston: You have a light industrial use and a heavy (inaudible)
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible) but generally we do not have. For example you can't have a
house in a limited office zone.
Hepper: If you wanted to have a light industrial use, he has a building that he contains
all of his noise, sound and light and glare and pollution, everything is contained within
the building and it is a small operation that is generally the definition of light industrial if
you want to have that in an industrial area (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 26
Crookston: I don't think there would be a conflict the way our ordinance reads is
(inaudible).
Shearer: We should though.
Stiles: Our ordinance also doesn't permit offices in a light industrial zone.
Shearer: That is kind of dumb too.
Crookston: In some ways that is true Jim but in some ways it is bad. You wouldn't
want a house in an industrial zone.
Shearer: No, but an office
Crookston: Our old ordinance allowed that, you could have a less intensive use in a
more intensive district if you wanted. This one doesn't allow that.
Shearer: I think that our ordinance that says you can't have a living unit in a
commercial establishment is wrong also. All of the big cities in the old days they used
to have the store downstairs and the apartment upstairs. We have some in Meridian
like Intermountain Arms. It makes sense to me, I think the ordinance is really wrong in
that case. In the case like an office in an industrial area, I can see very easily where,
well hell I've got one where I am supposed to design or was for the (inaudible) plant out
there. They have to have their office on site and its going to be an office. They have
their rebarb plant in another building, if you take that to an extreme their office is illegal
and that is ridiculous, they have to have their office with their plant because that is
where the (inaudible) and the orders and the bidding. It doesn't make sense.
Rountree: That is all part of the manufacturing plant.
Shearer: It is a completely independent building and it is nothing but office. There
are some others out there too.
Hepper: I think part of the reason to make a change to that is you have somebody go in
with a light industrial use, maybe he has several light industrial uses and it kind of sets
the tone for the neighborhood or that area and then somebody comes in with a heavy
industrial use then they start complaining because they were there first even though the
heavier use is permitted. They start griping about the other guy making so much noise
because with the heavy industrial they are loud (inaudible) odors and all of that. And
the light guys say we were here and these guys are really impacting us. Well they
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 27
shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Alidjani: We had a good case of that in 1982, I had a shop on Broadway, I was the
only shop on Broadway and the whole darn thing is industrial right by the railroad
tracks. And the neighbors complained enough that I had to move out. I was the only
one legally and technically using that land for the proper usage. Mr. Crookston
remembers that.
Stiles: It is kind of like the resident managers too (inaudible) they want to have
somebody live there but it is not allowed, it is not a permitted use. They have to apply
for a variance which really isn't legal to grant a variance for something like that. I think
we should work something in our ordinance that they could, so you could have a 7-11
or a Circle K with an apartment on the top and have the workers live there.
Crookston: If the property is zoned for the Circle K that may be fine. We don't want
to allow it where the property is zoned for R-4.
Shearer: That is true, it has to be the lesser.
Rountree: (Inaudible)
Stiles: A less intensive use.
Rountree: Everything that has been discussed (inaudible) like resident caretaker or
compatible residence with business or office.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: Some big industrial complex may want to have a resident maintenance
force or security force. I know we do in our operation, we have resident rest areas and
maintenance facilities.
Hepper: You zone that as residential and potentially you could have somebody going
in there and building an apartment building next to (inaudible) and say those guys work
here. What we just out here on Franklin Road is residential to industrial.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: Gary pointed out something (inaudible) the definition of (inaudible) says the
use is incompatible with heavy, light industry are not permitted to (inaudible) second
page, the last sentence there. Probably don't need the light.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 28
Alidjani: Which one are you suggesting to cross the heavy or the light?
Rountree: The light
(Inaudible)
Rountree: I guess we will leave that up to the courts to decide what that is.
Hepper: Are we talking about making a less intensive use could be in a more
intensive area?
Rountree: Yes
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: For some kinds of uses.
Crookston: I think that would have to be (inaudible).
Hepper: We just had one the other day where they wanted to put residential in an
industrial area (inaudible).
Stiles: Crossroads.
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Stiles: It was a planned development but it wasn't very (inaudible).
Hepper: If we made that an ordinance they could do it without coming to the City if it is
an allowed use.
Stiles: With industrial land you would have people lining up to subdivide it for homes.
Hepper: (Inaudible) clear out on Black Cat all the way to Cloverdale (inaudible).
Shearer: I don't think you would want to let residential go into industrial without having
a conditional use. I don't see any problem with letting office go into an industrial area.
Stiles: That should be permitted.
Shearer: I think the key is (inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 29
Crookston: I think if it is tied to that business.
Shearer: Yes, I don't think anybody in their right mind would want to build an office
complex in an industrial area unless it was tied into the business.
Stiles: Well somebody wanted to put an Alzhiemiers clinic out there (inaudible).
Crookston: The next one is just to remember (inaudible)
Stiles: What about this HS and MPUD, is that just another.
Rountree: Where are they?
Stiles: It is not on this list here but those are ones that have been requested for
zones. MPUD is in the Comprehensive Plan, the HS isn't.
Crookston: The MPUD is the Mixed Planned Use Zone.
Stiles: And it is also mixed residential.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: So we show general industrial, light industrial, mixed residential.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: I think we need to add those.
Crookston: (Inaudible) in the 409. On page 43 under laboratories (inaudible) I added
what is there. (Inaudible) RSC zone.
Stiles: Are we keeping that RSC zone?
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible) and Old Town, permitted in the technical, I added it as
permitted in the light industrial, I don't know if that is a good idea or not. Under,
Rountree: You have permitted in CG and the RSC?
Crookston: I have it permitted as in the CG and what I have down, I have changed
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 30
what we have as industrial (inaudible) I put a new classification in for the light
industrial. I have it laboratories, medical (inaudible) as a permitted use in the light
industrial zone. Under hospital, which is just up from laboratories I crossed out that
was a conditional zone (inaudible) and R-15, conditional use in the R-40 which I don't
know if that is (inaudible). Conditional use in the L-O, I have nothing in the C-N, I
have conditional use for the CC, the RSC and CG and Old Town and permitted in the
light industrial. Rather than go through and re-adopting hospital zone or whatever was
suggested.
Stiles: You don't want to do the HS?
Crookston: Hospital zone?
Stiles: Health Services.
Rountree: That is pretty exclusive.
Berg: (Inaudible) permitted it in a couple other zoning.
Stiles: All Forrey did when he submitted that proposed HS zone is took exactly what
Boise had but changed most of the conditional uses to permitted. It was verbatim from
Boise's.
Crookston: Whatever you want to do, do you want to add a health service zone?
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I think if they come in with a planned development, which they should anyway I
think, that they can get around a lot of that.
Rountree: This is a better approach this way.
Stiles: You think it is better to have a planned development or you want the HS.
Rountree: No, as a planned development and permitted in various by conditional use
or (End of Tape)
Shearer: (Inaudible) has to be approved.
Stiles: But I don't see why somebody would want to request an MPUD so that every
single thing they ever do from then on requires a conditional use.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 31
Rountree: I am not sure we want to create a zone that allows that without a conditional
use (inaudible).
Stiles: So you like the MPUD?
Rountree: I like the ability to condition (inaudible).
Crookston: Do you want an actual zone?
Rountree: Not necessarily.
Stiles: I think it should be those orange areas that can ask for whatever zone they
want just like you did with Avest, you require that everything come in as a planned
development and a planned development doesn't mean a Taco Bell at a time or here
is one thing (inaudible) for a conditional use permit for each little.
Rountree: (Inaudible)
Stiles: I didn't like the idea of having a MPUD zone. And you don't like HS zone.
Rountree: No, I think this is probably the easiest way for everybody.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: So how do we treat that as far as people who are waiting for an HS zone.
Rountree: They are still going to have to wait for it to change to a conditional use
situation or to a permitted situation in the zoning ordinance. Either way they are going
to have to wait whether we change it as an HS or change the situation on the table,
then they will apply for whether it is light industrial or whatever, annexation and zoning
for that piece of real estate. So Bews would probably, CG with planned development.
That would be our recommendation to him. I don't know why they didn't do that in the
first place, except it is not allowed. It is not spoken to in our table here, it is not
permitted.
Stiles: A planned development, yes it is.
Rountree: A medical planned development. laboratories and hospitals is not spoken
to.
Crookston: You do have planned commercial development on page 44.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 32
Stiles: And planned unit development general (inaudible) is just permitted.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: Planned Commercial development is permitted in CN and CC and CG.
Crookston: But under our, I think it is in our subdivision and development ordinance
we do have a process for planned developments.
Rountree: It is in the subdivision ordinance that they have to go through that process.
Crookston: It is kind of a design review.
Shearer: As long as we are not addressing the color of the windows or some damn
thing which is none of our business in the first place.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: Where are we here, Wayne do you have a clear picture? We are on page
3.
Crookston: We are saying that we don't need MPUD zone.
Stiles: Can I tell people that or does this have to go, does the Council have to decide.
All the changes here are recommendations of P & Z. Council doesn't come up with their
own, they can change some of them and expand on them but they don't necessarily
come up with any.
Crookston: If they want to come forward and say what they want.
Rountree: Do we have to invite them to do that, (inaudible).
Crookston: We put it together, we put together a petition to change the zoning and
subdivision development ordinance and it is submitted for a public hearing. There are
some suggestions made that you like you can add those to the petition or leave out of
the petition whatever you want. Then there has to be findings on it, a recommendation
then to the Council and then the Council does basically the same thing. If they want to
sit down and go over then we will.
Stiles: So how come Wayne Forrey is telling me there has to be an MPUD just
because the Comp plan does.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 33
Crookston: I don't know.
Smith: Does it say that on the comprehensive plan, is that designated as MPUD?
Rountree: It is addressed.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I disagree with it.
Crookston: As long as the zone is there that allows it.
Rountree: You don't have to identify it as a specific zone. I think the ordinance will
allow the activities that they are talking about.
Stiles: So a mixed residential would also fall under some kind of planned development.
Rountree: Planned Unit Development.
Crookston: We do have a planned residential, we have one for residential, we have
one for commercial and we have one for industrial.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: The problem is we had the Comp plan adopted and nothing in place yet.
Shearer: We are not going to zone the freeway industrial.
Stiles: Well we have some R-4, we can set up some single family homes out there.
Crookston: I did make some changes to, some suggestions of changes to the 409
residential, got part way through the commercial and finish that (inaudible).
Rountree: My suggestion there is to have you and Shari maybe sit down and go
through that based on the last couple years experience (inaudible) and make some
recommendations whether they ought to be conditional or permitted and submit those
for consideration. I can sit down and do it but I don't have total recall of all the
situations (inaudible). I would like to see those (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 34
Stiles: (Inaudible) a lot of things to this too.
Rountree: Some activities and or descriptions of some 21st century (inaudible) current
businesses.
Crookston: The way our ordinance reads is not designated as a permitted use, they can
apply for a conditional use (inaudible).
Stiles: If it is not listed as permitted or conditional use it is prohibited. Unless you can
find where it fits you can say it is not permitted it is not a conditional use.
Crookston: The way the ordinance reads though (inaudible).
Stiles: It says when use is not specifically listed as a permitted use such use shall be
hereby expressly prohibited unless by application and authorization is provided for
under conditional use it is determined said use is similar to and compatible with listed
permitted uses.
Shearer: But we put in there what is acceptable under conditional use. So, I read it
like she does if it isn't accepted under permitted or conditional use it isn't accepted.
Stiles: At least something similar, if there is at least not something similar to it.
Shearer: A lot of those things fall under retail or commercial or something like that
and not necessarily called out (inaudible).
Crookston: I think the way that this reads you can show that it fits in the City can
permit it as a conditional use.
Rountree: That is the way I read it. It is prohibited unless you can show that, that is
what it says. Or the application (inaudible).
Crookston: Do you want to change that and list it as a conditional or permitted,
(inaudible).
Shearer: I don't' want to change that, I just thought (inaudible).
Rountree: Maybe clarify that, because Shari is reading that and getting a (inaudible)
different interpretation.
Stiles: I understand that you can still go for the conditional use but it is also
(inaudible) if it is not similar or compatible with some of these uses listed, and this list is
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 35
in no way complete or would never be complete that it couldn't be a conditional use
either.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: (Inaudible) the application, because that is where it has to demonstrate that
it is similar or compatible. And that is not a burden on the City that is a burden on the
applicant.
Stiles: But there could be things that aren't similar to anything in here. So how are
they going to prove that it is similar.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: That would be manufacturing I would think.
Stiles: Most things you can fit into something, just once in a while something will come
up and you really don't know what it is.
Rountree: I don't think you want that so loose that anything and everything that comes
down the pipe is going to be a conditional use.
Stiles: But if there (inaudible).
Rountree: Put it back on the applicant to demonstrate that it is compatible or not
compatible.
Shearer: The only thing that I wonder is something (inaudible) and it tells you whether
it is conditional use or permitted in certain zones and the way I thought this thing read
was if it wasn't listed it was a conditional use or a permitted use that it is not permitted.
And Wayne just said
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: Somebody wants a landfill, well it is similar to let's see a junkyard maybe or solid
waste transfer station.
Shearer: The only thing is
Rountree: That is the first situation that is specifically listed though, if it is specifically
listed (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 36
Stiles: If it is specifically listed.
Rountree: And shown it is prohibited, if it is not specifically listed and it is similar and
compatible then it could be considered for a conditional use. But if it is specifically
listed as not permitted it is not permitted.
Stiles: So where would you put that, would you put that in the definition and say
landfill, and say are not permitted in any zone. Or put landfill and not C or P or
anything, just have a blank column.
Shearer: You don't have to worry about that the feds ain't going to let you put a landfill
out here anyway.
Berg: But there is always a unique business that comes up and you have to try and
figure out where in the heck it fits.
Rountree: If you can make landfill compatible uses then you are in the wrong
business.
Crookston: Let's turn to 410, do you want to add anything for the relationship to light
industrial.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: That will be helpful with the information he provides back to us when you
got through (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Crookston: They have no minimum lot area (inaudible) light industrial is listed but
there is not minimum lot area (inaudible).
Rountree: That is going to be governed by the number of employees to meet the rest
of the zoning requirement, provide for parking and landscaping and etc.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I don't think it is necessary.
Rountree: Do you have (inaudible) Gary?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 37
Smith: Well, the platting law requires you have to show lots within blocks. It used to
be that you could plat a block and then sell off your lots within that block on meets and
bounds description. But that platting law was changed and you have to show lots.
And you look at 2 examples of that would be Meridian Business and Industrial Park that
Winston Moore is developing and the Treasure Valley Business Center that tom Wright
is developing. Those were all platted with lots, now the lots in Meridian Business and
Industrial Park are a lot smaller in size then those which were platted in Treasure
Valley Business Center. The uses are many and the sizable lots are depended upon
the use that the manufacturing wants or has to have. I don't know how you would
specify a lot size in an industrial zone (inaudible).
Rountree: All we are talking about here is the minimum.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Hepper: I think let the developer specify the lot size.
Smith: I think they probably have a handle on what they need or want (inaudible)
maybe a multiple of lots so a client can buy 3 or 4 lots to satisfy their needs. But you
want to be careful and they also know that they don't want to end up with a small lot
because he wont' be able to sell it. So they are very careful in their marketing as to
how they sell these lots. I don't know how you put a minimum size against it though.
Stiles: It is the same thing on this C-N and C-C, C-N requires 4 to 8 acres, you have
zoned C-N areas that aren't even 4 acres now. We have C-C we have single lots that
are zoned C-C that aren't even 8,000 square feet let alone (inaudible).
Shearer: Why would we have that in there?
Rountree: It is a hold over.
Stiles: Maximum building height in the TE zone is 0.
Shearer: Our attorney's lot isn't even that big.
Stiles: I think you need to look at those minimum lot sizes (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I would say C-G would more likely (inaudible) minimum lot area than the C-C or
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 38
C-N.
Shearer: Most of the minimum lot sizes downtown are (inaudible). There are some
smaller than that.
Crookston: Do we want to do anything with that?
Rountree: I think we need to clean up the table because there are a couple of things
on here that are goofy.
Shearer: (Inaudible) those don't make any sense at all.
Stiles: TE, 80 acres for a TE zone.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: How many times are you going to get 80 acres.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: That is what that new school site is being zoned (inaudible).
Rountree: I think we need to take a look at those, (inaudible).
Stiles: I think the residential is pretty good.
Rountree: Residential, I think we have hashed that out time and time again.
Crookston: What about R-40?
Stiles: Well, they are going to say that it is not a lot, or that the lot is the entire
development.
Rountree: What do we have in terms of open space requirements for (inaudible).
That would be what I would consider on an R-40 to have a certain amount of the area
dedicated for open space.
Stiles: I think we should look at a maximum lot coverage at the very least. Because
R-15 requires they be adjacent to a park but R-40 (inaudible).
Rountree: And that doesn't seem right to me.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 39
Crookston: Well, in the R-40 do you want to add a minimum lot coverage or excuse
me maximum lot coverage?
Shearer: Somebody might want to build a skyscraper apartment house.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: It would still have open space (inaudible).
Crookston: Do you just want Shari and I to come up with (inaudible).
Rountree: I don't have any recommendations but there are enough questions on that
whole table that (inaudible) while we are here.
Smith: Could I ask, I had one on the R-8 and R-15, could we put the asterisk in front
of the minimum street frontage to which means it has to do with the culdesac.
Stiles: That was in Wayne's proposed changes to this, that was one of the changes.
After the 65 feet and the 50 feet as it is on the R-2 and the R-3 and R-4.
Smith: Do that for the R-8 and R-15 so we can define as a culdesac frontage house.
Crookston: Do you want it in front of the R-8, both in front of the 65 and 50.
Shearer: Behind them.
Smith: Behind the 65 and 50 and then on the 50 in the R-15.
Shearer: I don't think you would want any square footage on the R-40.
Stiles: How are you going to have a minimum street frontage of 50 in an R-15? Are
you talking about for the whole development.
Smith: This would be on a culdesac, or are we talking, can we have a culdesac in an
R-15?
(Inaudible)
Smith: Maybe you wouldn't have that condition in an R-15 zone.
Shearer: What we have ended up with in our R-15 is an apartment thing with private
streets.
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November 21, 1994
Page 40
Hepper: With 4-plexes and 6-plexes and stuff like that.
Shearer: Or eight, what was that one we approved out there (inaudible).
Hepper: Duplexes and 4-plexes and 6-plexes you could.
Smith: Even that one had a public street wrapped through it so it could have a
culdesac.
Stiles: We just had an application submitted for (inaudible).
Shearer: What happens if you put in town houses, is it town houses that have the zero
lot line? What happens if you have one of those? You have a 30 foot wide,
somebody wants one that is 30 foot wide.
Stiles: Then they have to have a PUD.
Shearer: Should that be (inaudible).
Crookston: 411, any changes to single family detached (inaudible) requirements.
Hepper: Same question there, (inaudible) I think the way we have gone here the last
year or so (inaudible) to the point of repeating it (inaudible).
Crookston: The Council (inaudible) it is allowed in the R-8.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: That is why we are getting that last project out by the golf course. To get
those little houses in.
Stiles: Which one?
Shearer: The one they presented at the last meeting.
Stiles: The Teeter property.
Shearer: The very last one at the last meeting.
Crookston: That was for Steiner.
Stiles: The R-15 and the R-4.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 41
Rountree: Again that is just establishing a minimum that we can condition,
successfully condition those minimums.
Crookston: (Inaudible) we have when it is an annexation, if it is not you can't do it.
Berg: What is getting tough to be is when you look on the zoning map and they see
R-8.
Stiles: What is permitted in the R-8, well let's see where it is at.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: (Inaudible) this is permitted, then you say well on paper it is but realistically
you will never get it.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: Much less having people (inaudible) and tying up properties for 6 months at a
time just to find out that they are going to be denied.
Stiles: When the new manufactured housing thing comes in too (inaudible) in a position
where we are going to be in a position where (inaudible) lawsuits or something. That
comes into effect in January of 1996.
Hepper: What is that?
Stiles: You have to allow manufactured housing anywhere you allow housing.
Hepper: You do right now under the same guidelines don't we?
(Inaudible)
Crookston: You cannot have manufactured housing in R-4 zoning (inaudible).
Shearer: You go out there to that subdivision we set up to accept the manufactured
housing across from the high school and I defy you to tell me which one of those
houses was built on site and which one was manufactured.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: What do you want to do (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 42
Shearer: They started out putting those manufactured housing in because it was such
a good buy. They put in 2 or 3 and then they started stick building their own.
Rountree: Let's get on with the square footage on this.
Crookston: Do you want any changes in the single family detached housing (inaudible)
requirements? You are talking about the one at the bottom of the page, I am talking
about 1500, 1400, 1300. Square footage requirement for duplexes, (inaudible).
Hepper: Duplexes are already set at 800 aren't they?
Crookston: Yes
Hepper: Do we have one for tri-plexes?
Stiles: No
(Inaudible)
Stiles: What is the typical apartment?
Crookston: I had a 2 bedroom home with 750 square feet.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I've got one over in Nampa that is 624 square feet, they have since added a
room onto it, but that is what it was originally.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Do you just want to make it 800 for any minimum living for anything?
Rountree: Except that would not apply to (inaudible) anything bigger than R-40.
Crookston: Anything bigger than a 4-plex?
Hepper: If you want to go to an apartment complex like 40 units and stuff like that then
they will have mixed 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom and 3 bedroom and then they will add
the different footage and stuff like that. But if we are going to talk, it is almost like a
detached house. You have a duplex or tri-plex that is not detached but it is an
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 43
individual, it is not an individual living unit but it is (inaudible).
Stiles: It is still a single family unit.
Hepper: Just about, they are attached but they are still single family units.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: You have then on duplexes but not on tri-plexes.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: I wouldn't' think that a planned unit development or something like that with 2
car garages would be feasible for apartments like that.
Smith: I have seen somewhere that they provide one garage, one covered and one
garage and one covered parking space.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: Usually when they do those like that I don't know about this one over here
because I haven't looked at it, but usually when they do that they put the car port in and
then they put a small storage unit in it or something.
Crookston: Do you want to add garages to tri-plexes (inaudible).
Hepper: Most of these apartment complexes, most of those are quads, 4 to 5 and
6-plexes and they just have little clusters sitting all around.
Rountree: I think it would be a good idea to have car ports, car covers. I think when
you start putting garages on some of those they end up getting full of stuff and the cars
get parked there every place in the complex.
Shearer: You are better off with car ports.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: A 2 car carport or a 1 car carport for tri-plexes and quads.
Crookston: What I wrote down was car ports for tri-plexes or greater.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 44
Hepper: Single car or 2 car?
Shearer: Single, if they want to park their second car outdoors let them.
Crookston: Okay, do you want to appeal the (inaudible).
Rountree: I think Tim is right, the fact that we have done (inaudible). We might as
well do it and through it open for consideration by the public.
Hepper: It is kind of tough to let someone go purchase a piece of property and go
through 6 months of planning just to get here and have it thrown out and (inaudible).
Shearer: I have mixed feelings about that. A 2 person family and a 1000 square foot
house would be plenty adequate and there is nothing to say that a 1000 square foot
house is going to be any less quality then a 1500 square foot house as far as quality.
Hepper: What kind of quality are you talking about. I know another point though is
the services, the infrastructure and the cost of the infrastructure. Didn't somebody say
there was a study or something done that it takes about a 1400 to 1500 square foot
house to break even on the property taxes versus the cost of the infrastructure to
support it.
Crookston: If you are talking tax base, homes don't pay for themselves anyway.
Shearer: You might if you had a $600,000 house or something.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I would imagine it is very large and very (inaudible).
Stiles: I like the R-8, I know you guys don't like it because you want to go with the
1400 but I think in some areas it is perfect to have a variation like that.
Hepper: We have 1300 on R-8, there may be situations where we (inaudible). There
may be a situation (inaudible) something and surrounding neighborhoods were
(inaudible) too big.
Rountree: Could you write it as that would be considered as a conditional use, so you
have some control on the kinds of small buildings that would, Tim's concern is mine
too.
Hepper: There are areas in the existing part of town, Old Town or whatever where
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 45
maybe 1300 would be too big.
Rountree: You couldn't get it on a lot. Approach it that way as opposed to having the
variability.
Stiles: Look at Danbury Fair, that is a nice subdivision.
Smith: They have some nice homes out there and it is an area that needed to have
because of the surrounding area, you couldn't (inaudible).
Shearer: There are a lot of places that type would fit and that is a prime example.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: When we are talking about conditional use are we talking about conditional
use of the subdivision or the individual lot?
Rountree: It is 8 o'clock and we have 4 more pages to go folks.
Shearer: That would be kind of tough something like Danbury where you have a
couple hundred lots and mix them up.
Stiles: Each lot comes in for a conditional use permit?
Rountree: No, the subdivision concept.
Shearer: I will buy that then.
Crookston: (Inaudible) says that you have to have all the house sizes on the plat
(inaudible).
Smith: Could we have a note?
Stiles: That is a requirement for a note on the plat.
Smith: Could we have a note on the plat rather than designating each lot. Just have
a note on the plat that says.
Crookston: This says all new residential housing development plats, you don't require
that on all the plats.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 46
Stiles: Yes we do.
Smith: We have been, just in the notes.
Stiles: Because it was getting too hard to keep track of what the minimum was per
(inaudible).
Smith: I think it is real simple then for a builder to look at a plat and say well this plat
takes 1500 square foot houses, no question.
Shearer: That same stuff from having ours messed up when they start (inaudible)
when they come in and ask about R-8, what does it say on the plat.
Crookston: H we have already talked about, (inaudible) on the garage sizes we have
already talked about that.
Stiles: Garage size, now we don't have anywhere that (inaudible).
Crookston: We do not have the garage size.
Stiles: So, shall we make that 400?
Crookston: Say standard 2 car.
Stiles: Capable of housing 2 standard size automobiles.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I think a lot of people come in with like 340.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: I know we have had some come through that have been smaller than that.
Some of the plans that I have seen.
Stiles: Because you only park one car in there and the rest is junk.
Crookston: (Inaudible) as stating "be" should just be "to". On 413B we have the
provisions for commercial and industrial uses. The way that it reads (inaudible) says
(inaudible) to reduce dangerous and objectionable conditions to acceptable limits as
established by the following performance requirements". I think we need to change
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 47
that basically to say that acceptable measures and safeguards to reduce dangerous
and objectionable conditions to acceptable limits are implemented. The examples of
acceptable measures to safeguard are as follows.
Stiles: Include but are not limited to the following.
Crookston: Yes, what we are saying here is these are the only dangerous conditions
and they may not be. These are the only ways that you can correct that. That is too
restrictive.
Shearer: Too much liability there.
Stiles: I would like to find, get some standards for noise like 55 decibels or whatever so
there is some guideline for them.
Crookston: They have been adopted, not by Meridian but they are out there.
Rountree: I think that would be good idea (inaudible) and then you have another
enforcement situation.
Shearer: Do you have something to measure them with?
(End of Tape)
Crookston: ...no building, structure, or land use shall be (inaudible) change unless
they maintain off street parking (inaudible). Because this deals with the Playground,
all it is (inaudible) having a building or structure. There is definitely a use out there
that needed some parking.
Rountree: And they got around it.
Crookston: Temporarily, that is why I added that for that specific situation. And 414
C7e that is just adding the R-2 and R-3 to that. That is the sideyard stuff.
Stiles: Are we allowing RV's to be parked in the sideyard?
Shearer: I don't know does the Mayor have one?
Crookston: There is usually a covenant, the City doesn't touch that.
Stiles: So somebody can pour a pad right up next to (inaudible) and park their RV in.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 48
(Inaudible)
Hepper: I suppose there are older parts of town (inaudible).
Smith: We had one when Giesler lived on 8th Street, we had one down there next to
him. We had a travel trailer that they put the tongue right at the back of the sidewalk.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: 416 E 1, (Inaudible) on the land, it just says that they have to place them, I
think we should state what size it should be and (inaudible) and whatever.
Smith: So it can be seen by a person with 20/20 vision or 20/400.
Crookston: (Inaudible) 4x8 or whatever we want on there.
Stiles: We have got those little.
Berg: We have these cardboard things that somebody previously made up.
Stiles: And happened to stay there until they (inaudible) off the post. You ought to
make a provision for removing them.
Crookston: The applicant is supposed to post this not the City.
Berg: There are some major companies that even have somebody sign an affidavit or
something that says that they put this sign up and when we get that notice to our office,
I mean some of it, not all (inaudible).
Stiles: (Inaudible) but they will post the sign.
Berg: This is saying (inaudible)
Crookston: 5 inch by 5 inch notice.
Berg: We have this 11x17, isn't that what size it is. We have lines that they are
supposed to fill in the blank.
Rountree: Do you say font size and all of that, I could put up an 11x17 poster that has
that much text on it. How far do you take this?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 49
Stiles: Well, either we continue to print ours that we have and say they have to get it
from the city or set some, that is (inaudible).
Smith: Why not just include it in the price of the zoning request or whatever it is and
they buy it and use it.
Rountree: The only way you are going to get uniformity is to do that, that they provide
posting as provided by the City.
Berg: And I don't see that as a problem because the thing is we can regulate what
things have to be on there by these lines.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I really think that the notices of public hearings (inaudible) but somebody
is walking around (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: The City can require that they get notice too.
Shearer: I think that the City furnishes those and they are yellow and they are all that
size people will get used to seeing them and when they see one they will know what is
happening on that site too. I think it will become something that people will notice.
Stiles: And we might put something in there about posting more than one if it is a large
tract, maybe people on Pine Street wouldn't see it if it goes all the way over the
Franklin.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: If the site looks big give them 2 of them.
Smith: Does it say where the sign is to be placed?
(Inaudible)
Smith: I would think that it should be placed up near an adjacent roadway.
Stiles: Doesn't it talk about, (inaudible).
Rountree: It should be posted in such a way so it can be seen by pedestrian or
motorists.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 50
Crookston: Okay, 416 E 2, this goes back to whether or not (inaudible)
recommendation or a decision. What I have was wanting to propose a change of
recommendation to taking action on in the (inaudible).
Stiles: Taking action on an application?
Crookston: In C (inaudible).
Stiles: They can legally take action.
Rountree: Well, our action is a recommendation.
Shearer: Action can be a recommendation.
Crookston: Then I have in C, just (inaudible) do you want it changed 45 days to 70
days. The Council has 70 days (inaudible).
Stiles: I think you are going to have to because legally we are not even doing that.
Crookston: We don't have to act to table it.
Shearer: We have been doing it, we send it on in 30 days normally unless there is
something wrong.
Crookston: Okay within (inaudible). I think it would be wise to have it longer than
(inaudible) is appropriate.
Berg: I am not saying our intent is to drag it out, but I think our desire is to get things
through as fast as they can. But sometimes there are snags, just for an instance for
some reason we have a flu epidemic and we can't get a quorum of people at a meeting
that you (inaudible) 30 days.
Rountree: We may be in a situation where we have to haggle over the findings too.
Shearer: That is covered in here, it says if it doesn't have sufficient information.
Crookston: Sufficient information is not a problem, it is when we have the hearing one
month that for some reason we don't' have a quorum the next month we are up against
it there.
Shearer: Right, but these guys always show up.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 51
Crookston: Do you like that or not?
(Inaudible)
Shearer: 60 days wouldn't be enough to make a difference.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: We would control that anyway by virtue of our absence or presence
(inaudible) 36 days. In most cases (inaudible).
Crookston: The other (inaudible) was I suggested we change the decision to decision
or recommendation. Then I would add sub-section B that states if an application is
denied there shall be no further action (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Stiles: What is the appeal charge right now?
Berg: $10,000
Shearer: I think we covered that earlier and decided against it.
Crookston: (Inaudible) change to decision or recommendation. 417 D, (inaudible)
Rountree: Do you have a comment Gary, are we hitting yours as we go along?
Smith: 2-414 (D) it has to do with off street parking design criteria. Item 2 D
Stiles: Drainage plan designed by an architect or an engineer shall be licensed in the
State of Idaho.
Smith: Architect or Engineer licensed in the State of Idaho. And that the frequency of
the storm should be 25 years.
Stiles: Okay so just add that design shall be based on the 25 year storm frequency.
Smith: Yes, and that is just following on the Highway District's recommendations.
(Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 52
Smith: New sentence, design shall be based on a 25 year storm frequency.
Stiles: We need to look at our landscape ordinance here too right above that.
Crookston: Let's bring it up now because we are going to put this together for a
proposed amendment.
Stiles: My problem is coming up against people that since our only landscaping
ordinance is 1 3" calliper tree for every 1500 square feet of pavement that is pretty hard
when you are coming up against Meridian Ford and this other parking lot. It is
important to have the trees and I would rather get it established (inaudible) percentage
of the size or some breaking up pavement somehow (inaudible) Albertson's here. But
that is something we are going to have to work on, I don't know what do you think about
percentages or saying.
Shearer: I think Boise has 5% if I remember right.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: We had one it has just kind of (inaudible).
Smith: Isn't Jim Johnson on it?
Stiles: He is the Chairman.
Rountree: It sounded to me like it was a done deal last P & Z (inaudible).
Stiles: We have already got a letter from people working for Meridian Ford that they
are ready for a new ordinance.
Shearer: I didn't quite follow what you were talking about on those trees at the last
meeting either.
Stiles: Well, see this is our landscape ordinance.
Rountree: That is the sum total right there?
Stiles: Yes
Shearer: But they didn't have enough trees, or were using the wrong kind of trees.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 53
Stiles: They didn't have enough trees, they didn't want to use 3" calliper trees.
(Inaudible)
Berg: They are also looking at the dealing aspect (inaudible). I don't think they were
cutting back landscaping (inaudible) they just wanted more freedom maybe.
Stiles: They are willing to work with us on something but to need 143 3" calliper trees
gets pretty pricey plus they are worried about the view which is understandable.
Shearer: 2" calliper will be 3" inch next year.
Stiles: But also you are looking at what are we going to do about a giant parking area
that is going to just be blasting heat off of it when we are trying to maybe someday
landscape that intersection through that interchange through there to make a nice
pleasant, and then you have a sea of asphalt right next to your (inaudible).
Rountree: I can appreciate the concern for landscaping but I don't know that we are
going to be able to tackle that tonight.
Stiles: I don't think so either.
Rountree: I agree with Wayne, we ought, that ought to be something you turn the heat
up on Jim and his committee to, have them pull their thoughts together and slip that into
this rascal.
Shearer: That would be a good idea.
Rountree: Now is the time to do it.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: I think that is important, if nothing else just come out with a reference that
sited in there that you can go to (inaudible) whether it be the (inaudible).
Hepper: (Inaudible) Boise city and Ada County.
Shearer: I have a stack of them that deep.
Stiles: I would also like to (inaudible) landscaping be designed by a certified arborist
or a certified landscape architect instead of just somebody just cramming a bunch of
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 54
trees in the corner and saying it is not our fault that they died. I have people submit
plans (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Gary did you have some more?
Smith: Under #5 I have, (inaudible) 2-414 D item 5 concerns paving. I think that
typically that these parking areas can be paved in the same way the streets used to be
paved all over the country. I don't know why we just can't call it out in the ordinance
unless you have some other concerns.
Rountree: That would take some flexibility away from you. You are probably not
being asked what that standard is anyway.
Smith: No I am not.
Rountree: So at least that would establish a minimum.
Smith: And that pavement section used to be used for public streets and I think.
Shearer: They used to do the parking lots 1 1/2" asphalt a lot of them in the parking
lot.
Rountree: I don't see any problem throwing that in there as a minimum.
Smith: But the trick is to get it on some stable sub-grades (inaudible).
Stiles: So you want to add that there?
Smith: That would be my recommendation.
Stiles: Do we need to define a stable sub-grade then?
Shearer: We've got one in there.
(Inaudible)
Smith: I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink attitude.
If you tell them it has to be stable and then they don't put it on stable sub-grade I don't'
know what else you can do except start going to go in there and actually (inaudible)
and determine densities. I don't know where you stop.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 55
(Inaudible)
Smith: I think typically the pavers that do the job, the guys that do this construction
parking lot they will spot that stuff and they are not going to pave over something that is
poor because they are going to get called back to fix it. So they are going to say that
is extra excavation, we have to take that out and build it up (inaudible).
Shearer: I think they will pretty well govern that.
Smith: Now on 414 D item 6, Shari and I had a question asked by Albertson's out at
Cherry Lane and Ten Mile Road about a two way diagonal parking layout. Our typical
standard just shows a single one way diagonal parking. They were proposing a two
way and they wanted to know what our dimensional standards were and we didn't have
any. So I just wondered if we shouldn't include that dimensional standard.
Stiles: They might need it wider than a 25' driveway isle.
Smith: I don't know what it would be.
Shearer: I think it would be the same.
Smith: You think a 25 foot driveway would satisfy a 2 way diagonal parking?
Shearer: I would think so.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Isn't' most parking lots that are 2 way don't generally you have parking off
of each isle going this way and if I am going north I go in the parking (inaudible) but if I
am going south (inaudible).
Shearer: That is what he is talking about. I would think that most of them are 45 if
they are angled.
Smith: What 45 is saying is a 13 foot driveway, that is for one way. So if you double
that to 26 foot. I just wondered if we shouldn't show this other.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: You would need at least 24 for a 2 way driveway.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 56
(Inaudible)
Shearer: Of course these are kind of mixed too. There are a lot of cars that are
longer than 19 feet (inaudible).
Rountree: You want to give those dimensions to Wayne so we can press on with that.
Gary will give you those dimensions.
Smith: That was it for that section.
Rountree: Now we are back to 417 D.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: The next one is 420 A it deals with (inaudible). We don't do this
(inaudible). What I have proposed is that basically before the land owner can do
anything with his property he has got to get a certificate of zoning compliance to say
yes your land is capable to have done on it that which you propose. So that the City
knows what is going on. It needs to be acquired prior to any building permit if there is
going to be a building. I think it is a good idea to have it for any use so that the City
has some control over whether or not even open use on land can be done. An
example is Shari and I have had an individual that wants to come in and put a recycling
plant on Meridian Road between basically the water shop and Franklin Road. It is
zoned industrial, recycling plants are permitted in industrial. We have no idea exactly
what he is going to be doing. He lives there. What he has told me is it is a tire
recycling operation. What he has told me is that he is going to basically construct
things out of old tires, he mentioned garbage cans that is the only thing I specifically
remember is making garbage cans out of old used tires.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: He is going to have to melt them down.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I told him he had to (inaudible) plan to the Council first.
Rountree: It sounds like it is a manufacturing (inaudible).
Stiles: He is not permitted to live there anyway if he is doing industrial.
Shearer: He has grandfathers though on that.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 57
Stiles: He can live there as long as he wants, if he wants to change the use of the
land he has got to comply with the ordinance (inaudible).
Crookston: Most of the goal here is that the City (inaudible) as to what people want to
do on their land. And to their benefit to know whether or not what use they want to put
on that land is permissible. I've got in here that the Zoning Administrator can prepare
and adopt an application which I think should set forth who the applicant is, the owner
of the land, if they don't own it they submit a consent from the owner that their use is
approved by that owner. I think they should tell us who the adjacent property owners
are. I don't think that in this process (inaudible) require the owners (inaudible) 300
feet but I think we should know who the adjacent owners are so we know what kind of
uses maybe impacted by the proposed use. And then once they get that then
(inaudible) building something they have to get the building permit.
Shearer: Why go to all the (inaudible) to start with. Whoever is next door has no say
over what they do, either they are zoned for it or they are not zoned for it. And the
zoning compliance permit would be released accordingly I would think. The other
thing is this is, I thought this is why the plans went to Shari when they come in for a
building permit. I assume they go through here. When they come in for a building
permit at that time for what they are building you can verify the zoning.
Stiles: I am not about to approve a recycling plant.
Crookston: This may not pertain to building.
Stiles: Maybe he doesn't intend to use a building.
Crookston: This may pertain to just using the land (inaudible) or a place to have rodeo
training (inaudible).
Shearer: Would that be an industrial use?
Rountree: I think the bottom line is what he is saying it is a way for the City to know
what is going on out there and make sure if it is going on and it is consistent with the
(inaudible) if it isn't it doesn't get started in place and then the City have to go
(inaudible) citizens.
Shearer: They basically
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 58
Hepper: (Inaudible) and you come back, they run you all over for about 3 hours before
you actually get your building permit.
Crookston: I haven't got it figured out in my own mind how it would work.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I would think it could be written a lot simpler than this and that would be that
the use of the land, building or structure or building erected has to have a certificate of
zoning. Obviously you are not going to give out a permit to build that can all go
together if they come in for a building permit then the zoning certificate can be issued
(inaudible) you can issue it and they can bring their plans in at the same time. I see
what you are trying to do is to keep them from using the property without having, doing
something other than what it is zoned for.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: This isn't going to stop it, it is going to give you some weapons after you find
it.
Crookston: In a large part that is true. Right now you don't have a way to stop it.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: That can be acquired at the same time as they acquire a building permit.
To start with somebody out there is going to build something I would think #1, I wouldn't
think you would want to (inaudible) a zoning permit unless they have brought the plans
into build.
Stiles: Well, my problem is even though they bring in plans that show all of this nice
landscaping and parking and handicaps and everything else they don't do it. They
bring in something to be approved and then they build whatever they feel like.
Shearer: Well, go out there and get the attorney after them and say this isn't'
approved.
Smith: That is where we need our compliance and enforcement officer.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: My experience has not been like this in the City of Meridian, the ones that I
have built. Down there the little one I did for Mike Bravo down there the plumbing
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 59
inspector went out on the job and we got a seepage pit for the drainage of the parking
lot that would handle 4 times the area of the parking lot at least but it didn't go into
gravel so they told him to dig that on down to gravel and put in more gravel which
meant that he ended up putting in a drainage pit that matched the one across the road
that took care of half of 1st Street. And I told him he should have called me because I
would have put up an argument because the City inspector was completely out of line
on that, that was our plumbing inspector.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: He is that little sweat shirt shop down on the end of 1st Street. There are 3
parking places there and we have a drainage pit there that is the same size they put in
across the street for all of 1st Street. The plumber seen that and said this is what that
one should be. Crazy.
Rountree: I don't know if we have consensus on this or not, but I think it is a good
approach, we may have to refine the words a little bit. I can see where you need the
tool.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: So this should also state they should have to have some kind of a plan
(inaudible). I am not just going to say yes you can put up your recycling plant because
it is permitted.
Rountree: Unless you know what that consists of.
Stiles: That he is going to have some kind of screening and berming and landscaping
and parking.
Rountree: No manufacturing.
Stiles: No melting.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: So my application I come up with could cover all kinds of things.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I don't think you ought to include landscaping in a zoning compliance. I
mean either it is zoned for that use or it is not zoned for that use has nothing to do
with landscaping, parking etc.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 60
Stiles: But that is in our zoning and development ordinance, what do you get them on
landscaping if they choose not to do it.
Shearer: I don't think legally you can if he has a lot out there and he is going to do
something, not building anything or anything like that.
Crookston: I am not sure how much you can require on the zoning certificate.
Shearer: Building permit (inaudible) or building permit for addition.
Rountree: If it is a residence in a zone that allows some kind of an activity and that
activity requires by the zoning ordinance to have landscaping, parking, etc. then they
should provide that if they are going to use the land that way. I mean that is the
requirement of the ordinance.
Shearer: I agree with you up to a point except that if you want me to read the parking
thing it says that basically x number of parking spaces for so many square foot of
building in most places.
Rountree: Or employees, but that is part of the application.
Stiles: 20 foot landscape strips, the 4 foot planting strips or whatever it is that is part
of the ordinance. To me just because it is on the allowed use doesn't mean they don't
have to comply with the ordinance. People are complying with the ordinances are
doing that in an allowed use.
Crookston: What do you have to supply (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Basically the right hand does what the left hand is doing so this is a piece of
paper that tells that.
Stiles: But they don't care about a site plan or anything else, you are just saying can I
build a duplex here? Give me a certificate of zoning compliance.
Hepper: (Inaudible) plans and she sets them on the desk and says (inaudible).
Shearer: That is for the building department, that is not for the zoning.
Hepper: (Inaudible) just like we do here and (inaudible) set them on the desk and say
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 61
go get me a zoning certificate. They tell you where to go, it is clear on the other end of
the building and come back and (inaudible) file them and take your money and
everything else.
Shearer: All the zoning certificate does is tell them basically what zone (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Like he is saying they don't look at the plans.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: We still need the sign off for zoning compliance before they get a certificate of
occupancy.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: But we don't have anything on that yet, our zoning compliance that is tied to the
certificate of occupancy. The certificate of zoning compliance (inaudible)
Shearer: I would think that would be one of the things you look at when you look at a
certificate of occupancy. By that time you should have figured out whether they are
building in the right zone.
Stiles: So it is basically making it a requirement that I sign off on the certificate of
occupancy. The certificate of zoning compliance all that is saying yes you can do that
here (End of Tape). But that still doesn't mean that they can just go ahead and do it.
Crookston: I think you can have them detail the use.
Shearer: You have to have that to know whether you can use it, whether that is a
legitimate zone for that zone. That is what the certificate says is that use can be in
that zone.
Stiles: So somebody comes in and says I want to do a solid waste transfer station you
say sure here is your certificate of zoning compliance it is permitted, go for it.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I think that has to come after.
(Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
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Shearer: If they are using it for that usage, for instance somebody using some site for
a certain usage and they are parking their cars in the street and there isn't adequate
parking to our zoning you can write them a letter that x usage requires so much
parking, off street parking.
Stiles: Yes, but this is saying, the certificate of zoning compliance, somebody says
hey I want to build a restaurant here, it is in a C-G zone, but they don't have room for
any parking.
Rountree: Then they can't meet the ordinance requirements.
Stiles: But it is a permitted use.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: They can always have enough parking for a restaurant. It only requires one
parking place for 2 places.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: So they have to be in compliance with the ordinance before you can even
issue it.
Crookston: That is the way the language reads now.
Stiles: Issued only in conformity with the provisions of this ordinance.
Rountree: If you change it to add your suggested, I would recommend that you
continue (inaudible) with the ordinance.
Stiles: So are you saying that they would have to have the paved parking, they would
have to have their landscaping in, they would have to have their screening in prior to
even issuing a building permit?
Rountree: No
Crookston: (Inaudible) but shown on the plan.
Rountree: They would have to do that in order for them to (inaudible).
Shearer: But according to that you couldn't issue them a zoning certificate until they
have got it.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
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Stiles: They could show it on the plan.
Shearer: Does it say that in there?
Stiles: It says shall be issued only in conformity with the provisions of this ordinance
and shall be required before the issuance of a building permit.
Rountree: (Inaudible) that is how you would condition the certificate of zoning and
(inaudible) you would have something to enforce.
Stiles: So when you go to get a (inaudible) they just stamp something?
(Inaudible)
Crookston: You are only dealing with single family homes or duplexes.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: They do the same thing on commercial.
Stiles: They just stamp and say yes you are allowed to have this office.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I think basically what this certificate says is that this thing is zoned for this
and you have to comply with the zoning. You don't need a plan or nothing else, all that
zoning certificate says is that you are allowed this usage and you have to comply with
what the ordinance. You don't have to show anything the way I see it, at such time as
he comes for a building permit or start operating or something like that he has already
been told he has to. That is the only way you can do that because you issue this
before you issue a plan check or anything. So this thing really basically what you are
saying, what you are doing is issuing a blanket certificate that states he still has to
conform with the ordinance. You are not saying that he conforms with the ordinance.
I don't think you want to put yourself in the position to say that this conforms to the
ordinance.
Stiles: Someday you have to.
Crookston: How do you know whether or not the use conforms with the ordinance
(inaudible) he has basically told you how he is going to do it.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 64
Shearer: I think he has to tell you what the usage is as far as number of parking places,
landscaping and that kind of stuff I don't' think you need any of that for the zoning
compliance because the zoning compliance is that you can do this usage in this zone,
however you must meet the ordinances.
Rountree: If I were to write one of those in Shari's position that is exactly what I would
do and then I would specify and highlight the major things he would have to meet.
Shearer: The problem with that is you start highlighting one ordinance and you don't
highlight the other and they take you to court and you end up losing.
Rountree: Just identify as a minimum, these things have to be met.
Shearer: You can't say that your attention will be, (inaudible) X, Y, and Z for some
particular reason and go on to state that this does not (inaudible).
Rountree: We have (inaudible) to where we can get on, Wayne.
Crookston: I think it does.
Shearer: When he starts doing the usage in that you know if they are not building
anything and they are starting to do the usage then you can go out there and
(inaudible) doesn't comply with the ordinance.
Stiles: So the actual compliance then will be tied to occupancy permit?
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: If I am putting together a set of plans, the first thing I would want to know is
does my occupancy comply with the zoning. So I would want that compliance before I
ever started the plan which all that does is you end up in the other usage. Now you do
get into a situation where somebody (inaudible) without doing any building whatsoever,
but that is just like the fire department comes up with those all the time and they have
to go out and inspect the thing (inaudible). I think that is what you would have to do.
If this guy says he is not going to build any buildings or anything like that but he is
going to do this work there if that work complies with the zoning then you would issue
that this does comply with the zoning but you still have to meet the ordinances. You
don't' know whether he does or not, you are not saying he does. You start saying the
guy meets the ordinance then you go out there and he doesn't for some reason you
have missed something you have already approved the thing.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 65
Crookston: I think we will put something together and work on it. 11-2-423
(inaudible) is penalty provisions (inaudible). Do we want to get into administrative
penalties?
Hepper: What does that mean?
Crookston: It means penalties assessed by the City (inaudible) for a developer not in
compliance.
Rountree: We already are, isn't that what this is? The $300.00 (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: We charge additional inspection fees if they go out to inspect (inaudible) so
they have to come back (inaudible).
Rountree: What are the pitfalls of doing that, what is the upside of doing that?
Crookston: I have not gotten into (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: If we don't have some means then all we can do is take them to court.
(Inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Hepper: (Inaudible) totally threw the whole thing out because there wasn't any
cooperation. Just trying to make it easy for them and the guys wouldn't cooperate so
the guys threw it out and now it is back to square one again.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: We have people occupying buildings that have no certificate of occupancy or
even a temporary or anything, they are just in there and set up.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: If we can adopt (inaudible) for one thing it is going to be a lot cheaper for
the City to do that than it is to take them to court.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 66
Rountree: We spend $10,000 to collect $300
Hepper: (Inaudible) call for an inspection, well he is not trying to (inaudible) or he
wouldn't call for an inspection (inaudible) he is going to get nailed the second time.
Honest mistakes happen but (inaudible).
Rountree: Where are you on administrative fines?
Shearer: Well, unless you have got some of their money or holding some of their
money it is kind of hard to collect (inaudible) unless you can turn off their water
(inaudible).
Smith: (Inaudible) certificate of occupancy (inaudible).
Crookston: You hold their library card, don't let them use it (inaudible).
Rountree: Keep their grades until they pay their fine. Kind of sounds to me like you
need to explore that.
Smith: That is what we have found on the last 3, I guess we have 3 occupancies with
no certificate.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: Well, Daunt is kind of in a bad spot because he doesn't feel he's got anybody
behind him to enforce anything. Even if you went out there, chances are that person is
going to call the Mayor or somebody on the Council and they are going to say well go
ahead.
Shearer: If they (inaudible) and don't have a certificate of occupancy.
Smith: A to Z Rental, they are in operation, Val's appliance and furniture they are in
operation.
Shearer: Why wasn't there a certificate of occupancy issued.
Stiles: Because they haven't done what they are supposed to do yet.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: A to Z one thing they don't have their landscaping that they show. They
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 67
showed extensive landscaping and sod. And put in a completely different plan plus
they are accessing all the way from East 1st Street to Meridian, but they haven't built
any approaches off of Meridian Road at all. They didn't show that on their plans that
they would be doing that. Really they should be required to improve that side too.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Let's go onto (inaudible)
Smith: I just made a comment that the zoning maps need to be updated, those little we
can get APA to do that.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: We've got some new ones that were redone except they changed quite a bit
since then. What APA has and what we show on some of these are quite different.
For example right where Meridian Ford is going in, this shows it as being C-C and
(inaudible) which now shows up I-L and I don't know how it ever got to be an I-L. I
can't figure out how this became C-C and this C-G and this C-G when it was actually
zoned C. The ordinance annexing it said C.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: But how does it get changed to this C-C, because Meridian Ford supposedly it
would not be a permitted use if in fact it were C-C. They couldn't do it with a
conditional use or anything else.
Smith: Some of those zones go back to when Jack was Zoning Administrator and
those were designations that were, some of those zoning maps I made up from maps
that, I mean I had rub on letters that I put on the maps that APA gave me because they
didn't have the zoning designations on them so I put them on or they had RT or a
county zone or something like that. So I put the zoning designations on them. It was
before they were even tracking them too close.
Stiles: But how did this get to be a C-C?
Smith: I don't know, it came from the City Clerk/Zoning Administrator.
Rountree: It is a typo.
Smith: When Jack was City Clerk (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
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Stiles: So the (inaudible) broke down and it kind of got C instead of G.
Smith: These are rub on letters it is easy to do.
Rountree: I think we agree that we need new maps.
Crookston: Okay, 9-604, C 6 m,
Smith: I might be out of line there I don't know (inaudible). It seems to me that
application for preliminary plat (inaudible) file it farther ahead of the P & Z meeting than
30 days.
Stiles: I think if we even got it 30 days prior to that (inaudible). We are not even
getting it 30 days now.
Smith: But the ordinance says 30 days.
Stiles: The ordinance says 30 days but Wayne Forrey changed it to the Friday after
the P & Z meeting.
Crookston: Wayne Forrey didn't change the ordinance.
Stiles: No, but he put it on the applications.
Crookston: Let's take it off.
Rountree: Let's get at least consistent with the ordinance.
Berg: What our real concern is because the meetings are based on when the days fall
on the week, it can be very (inaudible) especially when you have to get it into the paper
that publishes once a week (inaudible) notice. It doesn't even give Shari time or
anybody else time that we have talked about to review the application to see if it is all
complete. She gets it in Friday and we have to start processing it for publication plus
get it to the other agencies.
Stiles: So I could get 10 applications Friday at 5:00 and have to review all of them and
hope that everything is there and then get it to Anna in time so she can publish the
notices by noon.
Rountree: Is 30 days sufficient or is 45 better?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 69
Stiles: I would like to see at least, I would like to see maybe the deadline 4 P.M. the
Thursday prior to the P & Z instead of after the P & Z.
(Inaudible)
Berg: (Inaudible) First day of the month.
Stiles: The first work day of the month so we don't get mixed up with somebody saying
(inaudible).
Rountree: (Inaudible) on the Commission it has everything to do with staff and being
able to get it ready. I would (inaudible) to the staff pick a time that is going to make
your life better and the product we get better. Let's do it.
Stiles: It will give us more time to do comments and stuff too.
Rountree: Pick a time.
Berg: (Inaudible) little bit more time reviewing the application you guys get a better
picture (inaudible) and we will deny the applications until they get the stuff in.
Stiles: A lot of times stuff slips through and I am just trying to process them as fast as I
can to get them into Anna so she is not too pressured and somebody can get
something (inaudible) vicinity map or consent.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I would also like to make that pre-application meeting a minimum of 1 week
prior to the deadline instead of people trying to come in on the deadline and oh I want
to have my pre-application meeting now by the way and that it be by appointment.
Crookston: Prior to what?
Stiles: Prior to the deadline, a minimum of one week prior to the deadline. I think
Boise City you have to have a pre-application meeting, they require 2 pre-application
meetings. And that they are any time between 6 months and one week prior to the
deadline.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: For the next month.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 70
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: We have been getting complaints from agencies too that we don't have enough
time.
Smith: I don't know what (inaudible) falls under Wayne, (inaudible) adding one here,
is M the last one?
Rountree: No, it goes onto R.
Smith: You added pressure irrigation (inaudible).
Berg: The other thing that I might mention here back on (inaudible) where it starts
talking about 30 copies of preliminary plat (inaudible) the Assessors office (inaudible)
preliminary plat. They said that Garden City and Eagle and Boise all (inaudible).
Smith: Would you agree that pressurized irrigation should be added to this.
Rountree: So bump that 30 copies up to 35.
Berg: It starts on #5, (inaudible).
Stiles: There are some other places through here in Conditional Use and that kind of
thing.
Rountree: It would be easier to strike that language in the ordinance and say sufficient
copies to meet the current demands and have the number put on the application
(inaudible).
Stiles: Except people keep using the old applications, they have 100 copies made.
Berg: I think we ought to put a number on our applications, not saying we would ever
use it but they (inaudible) and we process the number.
Stiles: Like a purchase order or something.
Berg: Not saying our applications are the greatest (inaudible) but the same application
for preliminary plat and final plat we don't' know which one it is because they don't have
(inaudible) to cross one or the other out.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 71
(Inaudible)
Smith: I had a C, 9-604 C 6, I would like to see an addition there that sub-surface soils
profile and highest ground water elevation be determined through test pit evaluation by
a soil scientist prior to the preliminary plat.
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Stiles: It is under requirements of preliminary plat.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: Do you need that on every one Gary or are some of those (inaudible).
Crookston: You want to add (inaudible) development agreement.
Smith: (Inaudible)
Crookston Do you want to add a proposed development agreement at the part of the
preliminary plat (inaudible)?
Stiles: I haven't got a proposed one yet that (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Berg: Our annexation says that they have to (inaudible). So if you have it ready at
preliminary plat (inaudible) unless they have the development agreement (inaudible).
Crookston: We have been having a lot of problems with the development agreement
because (inaudible) basically end up being requirements that the owner (inaudible). A
fair percentage of the time the applicant is not the owner.
Berg: The applicant is not the owner until usually the land is annexed.
Crookston: No, usually they are not the owner until probably at least the preliminary
plat has been approved.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: We have had a number of developers object to the requirements that are
in the development agreement (inaudible) not the owner.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 72
(Inaudible)
Smith: You are proposing to have this development agreement at the preliminary plat
stage because why?
Crookston: Well, they are certainly not wanting to do it on annexation.
Smith: Is it a problem to wait until final plat to have the development agreement
approved at the same time the final plat is approved just like we do the covenants?
Crookston: I would suggest that we do it prior to the preliminary plat because it is the
preliminary that is the controlling document as far as platting is concerned.
Smith: I guess that is what we decided some time ago that is what we (inaudible).
Stiles: But that is also going to tie in whether or not they actually make the changes
that have been requested on (inaudible). We were talking earlier about the
preliminary plats and how they don't comply with the findings they just keep on going
and go ahead and submit their final without ever changing the preliminary and then
they wonder why (inaudible) is requesting things in accordance with the findings and
they say well our preliminary plat is approved how come I have to change it again.
Crookston: We have the development agreement (inaudible) before they get final plat
approval.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: Preliminary plat, preliminary development agreement.
Smith: Those are all controlling documents. So when they get to the final plat it is
just a matter of a formality of approving (inaudible).
Stiles: The final plat should just go like that.
Smith: There shouldn't be any trouble with it.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: It is just like Tumble Creek, Tumble Creek went clear through, through they had
preliminary plat approval but at the same time they didn't do one thing that was
requested of them.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 73
Crookston: So, let's add (inaudible) proposed development agreement or (inaudible)
We are talking about complying with the requirements of the preliminary plat.
(Inaudible) or shall be submitted separately.
Smith: Wayne, how do they submit a development agreement, I guess it would be a
proposed development agreement, because it is a proposed preliminary plat. We
have reviewed it, staff reviews it (inaudible) changes to whatever.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: See right now we are not getting any proposed covenants either. That is kind
of hard to do that though. I guess it is proposed to do anything.
Smith: We have had proposed covenants submitted before.
Berg: We have had some (inaudible) from the beginning (inaudible) beg and plead
for.
Stiles: I haven't been pressing on that one.
Crookston: We want to add the sub-surface soil profile.
Smith: That always comes up as a question based on our past (inaudible) experience
with sub-surface water. It is helpful when a soil scientist digs a few hold and takes a
look and he can tell us if that surface water is going to drain down or not. If there is a
clay layer down there then we can expect that we are going to have trouble in those
crawl spaces with surface water, just like we always have.
Stiles: (Inaudible) that is required somewhere, I don't know where. Maybe that is just
what you added to that preliminary plat check list.
Crookston: C 8, do you want to add a provision that basically states (inaudible) must
be 15 or whatever number of days prior to the hearing.
Rountree: What are they asking for?
Stiles: I don't think in the paper is 15 days, that is State code too isn't it, 15 days.
Crookston: 15 days is notification of the hearing.
Stiles: Isn't that what we are talking about?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 74
Crookston: Sometimes we don't get anything from ACHD (inaudible).
Berg: When the transmittals go out and you receive (inaudible) we ask for them by
Tuesday a week prior to the meeting. So that we can process those things Thursday
or Friday (inaudible). To be honest with you as you know we don't even get them by
then.
Smith: How far before that Tuesday do you send them out to the agencies? Do they
have 2 weeks to respond by that Tuesday?
Berg: Well for instance we have been getting a bunch of things today (inaudible)
mailing out to the agencies (inaudible). As soon as she gets the notice out.
Smith: For what meeting is that?
Stiles: The 13th, some for the 6th and some for the 13th.
Smith: So in this case they will have more than 15 days time to review it.
Berg: It is final plat sometimes that is.
Stiles: Yes, final plats we might just have exactly 15 days from the time (inaudible).
But if they have done everything (inaudible) it shouldn't be (inaudible).
Crookston: How does this tie in with the situation (inaudible) about receiving the
documentation on the 1st work day of the month prior to the next months P & Z
meeting?
Stiles: We would still know when our publication deadline was.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Would we have (inaudible)
Rountree: You would have the material at that point so you would be able to notify the
agencies (inaudible) comments early, 30 to 45 days in advance.
Berg: What I envision is if we have (inaudible) Shari and anyone else can review the
application for one week and still have plenty of time to process that application to get it
out to people almost a month prior to the meeting.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 75
Rountree: (Inaudible) 3 weeks.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: I think if we establish that date that we talked about Wayne I don't believe
that your suggested change here is necessary.
Crookston: If we establish that the documents have to be received on the 1st work day
of the month prior to next P & Z meeting.
Berg: I was asking a question about this (inaudible) ease the pressure should we
change that (inaudible) our office and we put a date on there and give it, put it on a pile
so you know where it is.
Stiles: Does that mean you are going to look and see if it is a complete application?
Berg: No I am saying the date that we received it. Put it on a post it not, put a date
received.
Stiles: My only problem is if it is accepted and there is a date put on it they are going
to think the clock starts running.
Berg: I don't want to put a date accepted, because usually on the form at the bottom
on some of our applications it says (inaudible). Sometimes they either leave them at
the front counter, sometimes they don't get them right back to you. What I am saying
is if they get turned into Anna let her put a date on a post it note and put it in there and
make sure you get so you know exactly (inaudible) instead of being hidden somewhere
(inaudible). The other thing is there are other people think they brought it in a day
before they brought it in.
Stiles: Well, it says shall affix the date of application acceptance thereon. I've got
stuff in there that I got 2 weeks ago that I haven't even looked at.
Berg: That you haven't accepted.
Stiles: It would be great if Anna would have to go through and see if they were
complete applications and accept it.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: But I don't think they should consider them to be (inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 76
Berg: (Inaudible) to put a date on them (inaudible) to know when we got them
(inaudible) first, second. You are not sitting here getting them first hand (inaudible).
Stiles: I guess the only way I know what came in first is the date of the receipt, the
number of the receipt.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: The next one is 604 C 8 b, (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Berg: Is that just for Planning and Zoning meeting or is that City Council?
(Inaudible)
Smith: I have one (inaudible)
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Let's take out the work finding and make (inaudible) change it to action.
(Inaudible) let's change that to 70 day (inaudible). 604 C 6 d, (End of Tape).
Rountree: And we can deny them and not send them onto the City Council folks.
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Rountree: 10 C, action on preliminary plats, we can approve conditionally, deny or
table preliminary plats for additional information. Approved or approved conditionally
preliminary plats are forwarded to the Council (inaudible) is not forwarded to the
Council. Maybe you need straighten that out.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I've got this one (inaudible) out of line. It goes back to page 7, that is the
legal description of the subdivision. I just had it prepared by a land surveyor licensed
in Idaho. 604 C 6 b, up above.
Smith: I have one under C 6 also.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 77
(Inaudible)
Smith: Okay, C 6, requiring the preliminary plats, under 9-605 J 6, fences, paragraph
d and e under 6, the last 2 paragraphs.
Stiles: Fences shall be erected.
Smith: Talking about that these fences on top of berms and boundary fences should
be shown on the preliminary plat. I just wondered if those 2 paragraphs should be
added to the contents of the preliminary plat under 604 C 6. Well, the items d and e
under 9-605 J, paragraph 6, d and e. I just wondered if they shouldn't be under
preliminary plat also or in lieu of where they are.
Rountree: There are 2 things on page 21, (inaudible) Gary thinks should be part of the
preliminary plat (inaudible). It says that it should be there but they all too often don't
get put there.
Smith: Its another one of those things.
Stiles: I don't think I have ever seen one with a fence (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Smith: Yes, the contents of the preliminary plat.
Stiles: I think we should also have, (inaudible) existing houses or something
(inaudible) should be shown.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Let's go back to 9-604 n, page 8, (inaudible) deed restrictions.
(Inaudible) do we want to require covenants or not.
Rountree: What do we do with them when we get them?
Crookston: Gary and I and (inaudible) review the covenants and what I go through
them for is to see like for instance on dogs, if they say nothing about dogs sometimes I
put in there that you can have dogs but you cannot have more than 2 of them. So, put
it in your covenants, that is what the ordinance requires.
Stiles: What if somebody wants an AKC subdivision where everybody is required to
have 5 dogs.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 78
Crookston: It is not allowed.
Stiles: Anywhere, you mean nobody can have more than 2 dogs.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: But if you are saying there is a possibility of a conflict (inaudible) we are
basically saying we are going to approve (inaudible).
Crookston: What it says though is a copy of the proposed restrictive covenants it
doesn't say that we are approving (inaudible). This says that it shall be submitted
(inaudible). Walt Morrow is adamant that he wants restrictive covenants to be
mandatory with mandatory dues.
Stiles: Can't we make that a requirement without saying we are viewing and approving
some restrictive covenants?
Crookston: We could.
Rountree: Couldn't you cover that with the development agreements?
Crookston: The only way we can get to development agreements is if the land is
annexed or it is rezoned.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I think that Boise reviews (inaudible).
Rountree: Dig into that and (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Stiles: You could have all kinds of appeals then, we will be racking up that appeal
money. Arbitrarily holding them up and.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: And that takes you all the way through 604 C 10 a, (inaudible).
Smith: I think that is what Shari has been saying, that needs to be complied with.
The development community doesn't want to adhere to the requirements of the
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 79
ordinance then the applications don't go any farther if they are not complete. But she
has to have time to review them and make sure they are not complete.
Stiles: My problem is trying to get people to come around from what has been
accepted in the past to what the ordinance even requires now. Like the
pre-application meetings, covenants.
Rountree: (Inaudible) all to City Council meeting and (inaudible).
Stiles: And another thing that is really hard is to wade through all the past stuff to make
sure the final plat conforms with the preliminary plat. I can't just look at the preliminary
plat and say oh well this is about the same, the streets are about the same place, lots
are the same. I can't do that I have got to wade back through the ordinance and all the
findings and everything else. All the agencies comments because they never change
anything once they submit a preliminary plat.
Rountree: (Inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: I think (inaudible) on the agenda until all the problems have been
(inaudible).
Stiles: Under a.
Smith: I think on my side Shari I sent a little memo out to all the engineers doing
business with us and I included a list of what we expected to receive.
Stiles: (Inaudible)
Smith: I sent a check list on the sewer and water plan profile requirements, standard
notes and everything we wanted to see on the development plans. And let them be
aware that this is what (inaudible) and if we don't get this (inaudible). They are
incomplete when we get them they go right back to their office. I wonder if maybe that
wouldn't help this kind of information was sent to them and sent to the surveyors
whoever is submitting projects and say these are the things we need when you submit.
If your final plat doesn't comply with what the preliminary plat approval is it comes back
you start over. (Inaudible) they don't appear to be smart enough to read this book and
figure it out.
Stiles: So they can interpret it any way they want to.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 80
Smith: I don't know maybe that would help.
Stiles: I tried sending out the application check list and that has helped some to the
people that I sent them to. They don't like it but at least they know (inaudible)
pre-application meeting and that they should have these things on their plat and
contour lines or whatever. So I should check each one of those items (inaudible) and
ship them back.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I have incomplete applications that will be rejected but you changed it to will
not be processed.
Hepper: (Inaudible) a lot of times you say (inaudible) other places there is something
missing so they send it back and then they say here is another thing missing and send
it back, they don't give you a full list of everything that needs to be done.
Stiles: That is what I try to do.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: Once she does it that way (inaudible).
Stiles: Just hold them up for years.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I think the check lists once we get them finaled (inaudible).
Crookston: (Inaudible) that isn't in compliance you send them a letter state what it is
(inaudible) will not reviewed until you (inaudible) Shari's or Gary's job to go through an
application that is incomplete until it is complete.
Shearer: That kind of depends on whether you are saying it is incomplete or whether
you are sending the whole package back to them we don't want (inaudible) complete.
If you are keeping it there (inaudible).
Hepper: In other words you are saying tell them this isn't complete but we are not
going to tell (inaudible) for yourself.
Stiles: I don't want them bringing in one piece at a time, I would rather give them back
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 81
the whole thing and say when you have a complete package then send it back to me.
Not here is this and here is this (inaudible).
Hepper: In that case you are reviewing the whole thing (inaudible) you are reviewing
it. What Wayne is saying as soon as you come to one thing that doesn't (inaudible)
that you stop right there.
Crookston: And you tell them, you say there are pros and cons to this, by going
through and telling them everything that is missing you are basically doing their job for
them (inaudible) If you get to the point (inaudible) I have reviewed this until I got to the
position that this item, tell them what it is was not complete. I did not continue my
review because I am just wasting my time because it comes through again I have to go
through it again. But on the other hand, it is a PR move to tell them what is wrong with
it.
Shearer: We work real hard to get (inaudible) but we really have to work hard at it.
Crookston: There are drawbacks for the staff to go through an application and find
and go through everything and tell them exactly what is missing and (inaudible) they
need to do and (inaudible) again and you have to review the whole thing again anyway
to make sure that they have done what they didn't have the first time.
Hepper: The second review should be pretty easy (inaudible) start from scratch.
Stiles: I think new application forms and our check list will help too. Because the
applications don't even ask for all things that are in the ordinance.
Hepper: (Inaudible) drag it on for a year.
Crookston: That is not my goal, my goal is to say this is what you have not supplied,
there is not much sense in me going through it again (inaudible) have a check list and
say here is what is required and send it along with the letter saying this is really
required.
Hepper: I don't know what else is missing but this is definitely missing.
Crookston: You check it and tell me (inaudible).
Stiles: I have an application in there for annexation and zoning for a plat. Well they
submitted the annexation and zoning with all the warranty deeds and legals and
everything else, but the plat all they have is the 3 pages and the plat. They don't also
include the proof of ownership and all the things that are also required of the plat and
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 82
say well that is in the annexation application. I say that doesn't matter it is not the
same application. These are 2 separate applications we need the information for the
plat and for, well can't you photo copy that and put it in there.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Just like in the covenants, I will go through the covenants and underline or
make comments on them send them to Will, Will sends them back to them and we get
them back and I've got to review the whole thing again to see if they corrected my
comments and then sometimes they don't. So I have to sit there and go through the
whole thing.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I think there are a couple of them we have done that at least 3 times.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: With no interruptions probably a 1/2 hour, with interruptions all day.
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Stiles: I am not going to get down to the point where oh you only have 79.99 feet of
frontage right here. I am not going to get down to actually reviewing the design or
anything like that. The same plat application, the annexation is supposed to be for 45
acres well the legal description is for 20. They are requesting 2 different zones with
one legal description.
Shearer: You think you feel bad, wait until he finds out he (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible) materials to the agencies when we know that we don't have all
that they should have submitted? It doesn't make any sense to the (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I think we need to get 35 sets of everything or at least, because Anna doesn't
copy everything that they submit. So Bruce may be commenting submit this, when
they already have but he just doesn't happen to have a copy of it in his packet. Like
the consent of owners you sometimes don't get and (inaudible) received.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 83
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Okay 604-10a, (inaudible), 10b, (inaudible), 604 E, what I have down here
(inaudible) approved or conditionally approved set public hearing (inaudible) blank
days after the Commission (inaudible). The application has been denied and there is
an appeal (inaudible) 45 days (inaudible). If you go with this very first paragraph
(inaudible).
Shearer: We are talking about the plat here right.
Stiles: If the plan is denied it is not forwarded to the Council. If the plan is tabled it
may be reconsidered by the Commission (inaudible). So really we shouldn't accept
those (inaudible) the Council.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: I think once you pull out the inconsistencies and put a scenario together
that is consistent and that will affect how that paragraph reads, because the paragraph
reads screwy because one place we are taking an action (inaudible) another place we
are assuming it has been passed on and we have (inaudible) in case they are talking
about the aggrieved party appeal.
Crookston: The next thought was to have the Zoning Administrator give a report on
the application at the start of the hearing for the Planning and Zoning and City Council.
This is what (inaudible) Nampa.
Stiles: They do it in Boise too, it is a great idea. That would be something I would
want to work on with Gary or Bruce, that is kind of something we have been talking
about a lot but nobody ever has any time to sit down and.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible) before then the public if they think something has not been
addressed get up and address it. If they like what has been presented they may not
want to comment.
Rountree: This is a staff report prior to the opening of the hearing.
Crookston: It would be part of the hearing.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 84
Shearer: What would you do to get the developer to present his project and then the
staff report and then go to the public.
Crookston: No, I would have the staff report first.
Berg: It gives more of an idea to the public what is really going on. Sometimes they
get this little notice and map and they don't have a clue what (inaudible).
Smith: It is not necessarily our comments it is just a presentation of the project.
Stiles: The facts.
Smith: What has been presented by the developer in the application.
Berg: Such and such acre project wanting to develop (inaudible).
Smith: And put an overhead on.
Stiles: Sewer and water service is available and stuff like that.
Berg: Overhead of the vicinity and overhead of the plat.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I think that is something we need to do. It is time to be able to do it and have a
good staff report I think we also have to make sure we get input from the agencies prior
to the development report. Nampa Meridian's comments, ACHD (inaudible).
(Inaudible)
Stiles: That is also going to help coming up with conditions of approval.
Smith: So we would present the agency comments at the staff report also.
Stiles: I would, I would include those. ACHD requires 45 feet from the centerline of
this project.
Crookston: (Inaudible) pertinent (inaudible) you may want to skip over the standard
and recognized requirements.
Hepper: But the site specific things that pertain just to that project.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 85
Stiles: And it is really findings, I mean, the staff report a lot of that is (inaudible). This
is the north, the south, the east, the west, this was published, the site was posted.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: You don't ever hold the developer to 3 minutes why hold the staff. I would
think it would be more appropriate that the developer present his project and then the
staff got up and said we reviewed this project so on and so forth. And then (inaudible).
Stiles: And then the developers would want to get up again and rebut everything you
said. If you get up first and just present the facts.
Crookston: At the public hearing the developer is entitled to get up and talk and he
may say the exact same things that you say, what I think the staff report does is going
to home in on some things rather than get the developer up there swaying back and
forth just like in Tumble Creek all Arnold Stubblefield got up there was bullshit about
previous applications and what should and shouldn't be done. He didn't really say
anything about the frontages.
Stiles: We'd all like parks and we'd all like to have this and that but the people would
just quit having kids we wouldn't need parks. Some weird stuff like that.
Crookston: And then other people got up in the hearing and talked about what had
previously been heard.
Shearer: Sometimes I think Jim ought to just go whoa that has nothing to do with this
project.
Smith: I think Wayne is right, the other areas where I have attended public hearings,
the Highway District, the County Planning and Zoning they all have the staff report and
the staff presentation is the very first item. The staff presents it to the Commission and
then they direct public testimony. (Inaudible) so people can continue to refer to it and
see exactly what is going on.
Crookston: Let's go one step backward, do we want to require a (inaudible).
Stiles: Yes
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Stiles: Our ordinance requires a vicinity map showing a 1/2 mile in all directions but
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 86
the applications don't ask for that. So I am always missing that and that is always a
comment in Gary's, submit a vicinity map showing a minimum of a 1/2 mile radius.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Actually, I would think that an awful lot of this stuff could be done in the
ordinance and you would think the application would handle that thing, (inaudible) how
many copies and that kind of stuff of what, I don't know.
Stiles: It is slowing down enough that after this month is over I may actually be able to
do it.
Crookston: 604 E 5, (Inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I think we need to bring this to the attention of the Council here.
Crookston: What we are talking about is changing the ordinance.
Stiles: So you will be fined if you have negotiated or try to negotiate in a private or
closed meeting $10,000?
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I think that minor things you could.
Smith: (Inaudible) negotiations with the Mayor and Council that doesn't work.
Berg: That is what has caused a few decisions to be made (inaudible). The Mayor is
not going to meet.
Smith: He is not going to do anymore meetings.
Stiles: He said that?
Berg: Oh yes.
Stiles: Good for him.
(Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 87
Berg: It was about Haven Cove and the 20 feet.
Stiles: That was it because he told them it was fine the way it was.
Berg: (Inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: I don't think he should, I mean not negotiating and telling them how something
is.
Crookston: You cannot make an agreement or even a tentative agreement, all you
can do is tell them your position.
Rountree: All I tell them are my concerns.
Crookston: (Inaudible) and try and get things worked out. (Inaudible) you can't, all
you can do is say I will convey your concerns and I will (inaudible) what should be done
but (inaudible) the Mayor, there is no sense making what the applicant may perceive as
a deal when you can't make a deal unless you have the governing body the
Commission or Council say yes that is a deal.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: Are you suggesting that this leads to poor management practices on the
part of the Council and maybe you ought to strike the whole thing.
Stiles: I say that they not even consider those private meetings. If they don't like they
either appeal it or do it through the process they have to go through not individually go
to each Council member and give their little sob story.
Hepper: (Inaudible) you got a minute we need to talk to you. This is what we
presented and then they (inaudible) I really feel like they should be doing that here
instead of (inaudible) swing a deal before the meeting.
Crookston: I think that there is somewhat of difference between the Council and the
Commission in that the Council are elected people and I think that the applicants to
access them. The problem is that you can't make a deal with them.
Hepper: You can listen to their pitch but you can't make a decision.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 88
Crookston: You can tell them yes, I will support that. You can tell them no that is a
bad idea.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: And I don't see how you can even, this negotiation shall take place in open and
informal meetings unless you advertise. How do you, how is it open? Just happen to
leave the door open as the Mayor is in there talking to 3 developers.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: Just drop the whole thing.
Stiles: It doesn't make any sense, negotiation process shall be separate from the
decision making process of the Council. We will have lots of people saying how much
money will it take to get this through.
Shearer: With this Wayne how does this fit in with like the negotiations that took place
on the Regional Shopping Center when that was being negotiated. There were people
with the City that negotiated with the Shopping Center people in regard to what they
would do for fire protection and etc.
Crookston: I think there was some.
Shearer: And it never took any effect because the Shopping Center went to Boise. I
know there was some.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I know there were negotiations there which needed to be done.
Crookston: I think there were some discussions about what they would provide
(inaudible) fire truck or a fire station.
Shearer: Police stuff.
Crookston: I don't specifically remember that there was any deals made. If you it we
will do this as a carrot.
Rountree: And that was done in public.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 89
(Inaudible)
Stiles: This also says that any negotiation that has occurred will be, the public will be
informed in a newspaper article 15 days prior to action.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I advise people to come in and they come in and they want me to say is this
going to be approved and I can't tell anybody that. I just say make a presentation to
the Council and (inaudible).
Crookston: So, 604 G, (inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: 604 H 8, (inaudible), 605 G
Smith: 605 G 3. a, it has to do with the street right of way width. I don't know what
the Highway District current standards but I just wondered if we shouldn't delete those,
that listing of the right of way widths and say that it shall conform with ACHD standards.
Stiles: That is a good idea.
Smith: They have joined our bandwagon on the arterial section lines roads to go 90
feet.
Crookston: On the listing there?
Smith: Yes, I just wonder if we shouldn't delete the listing and just say that in item a
that they will comply with the ACHD standards.
Stiles: I think the major arterials are clear up to 114 or something now. ACHD isn't
even complying with (inaudible). We have to have 7 foot sidewalks on all of the major
arterials, (inaudible) the development to do it.
Smith: The next one I have is B 6, it is on page 18, culdesac length. I don't know
what Boise is requiring now but I know it is longer than what ours is.
Stiles: I think it is 500.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 90
Smith: I thought it was 700.
Stiles: It is just a function of their hose length right?
(Inaudible)
Stiles: What difference does it make (inaudible) fire hydrants.
Smith: What I understand is that after a culdesac gets to be a certain dimension, a
certain length then they go to a wider street at the beginning of the culdesac. And they
run that width down to a point where there would be a fire hydrant and then they neck
the street down to go on the length of the culdesac. But the culdesac actually has a
fire hydrant (End of Tape) something that we could defend very easily.
Stiles: So should we get with the fire department.
Rountree: Condition that on the length acceptable to life and safety requirements.
Stiles: I think we should have a number there.
(Inaudible)
Smith: Boise City has so much horse power in their zoning department over there,
they are always digging at stuff and putting it down to numbers that have some sense.
I just didn't have time to contact them and see what it was. I think between that and
visiting with our fire department that we can come up with a number there. But I just
have a feeling in the back of my mind that it is going to be greater than 450 feet.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: Dead end lines are not good.
Shearer: I think this is a technical thing for Gary and the Fire department, etc. I really
don't care if it is 500 or 700 personally. Whatever works.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: I did have a change on G (inaudible)
Stiles: Other subdivisions are what?
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November 21, 1994
Page 91
Crookston: Other subdivisions or sidewalks on arterials or collector streets. Just like
in Tumble Creek.
Stiles: I wouldn't care about the block length if they would even have a pedestrian
walkway.
Crookston: They have a run along Linder Road and there is no way to get to the
southeast corner. You can't get to the side over there unless you go all the way down
the street access.
Rountree: Which is on the south end.
Crookston: It is more towards the north.
(Inaudible)
Smith: They only have that one street coming in and (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible).
Stiles: One thing we have in here about pedestrian walkways are pedestrian walkway
requires that 5 feet of it be paved with landscaping on either side and nobody has been
doing that at all.
Smith: 9-605 F 5, I would like to add an item. We have had a couple of subdivisions,
in fact more than one where we had low areas occur and create drainage problems on
the back of lots. We haven't had a drainage plan required, grading and drainage plan.
Years ago when I was doing subdivisions FHA required one. You had to design
grade every lot and make sure it drained out to the street and you didn't have any low
spots in the back of lots. And you weren't draining from one lot across the lot of your
neighbor. I have had several phone calls on that particular item and several that have
been brought to my attention by the Building Inspector where they have actually
created low spots and then the builders have had to go back in and construct some
subsurface drains in order to get rid of the water. But I don't know how far you carry
this because you are going to start grading plans you almost get to the point where you
need to establish a finished floor elevation for each lot to make sure that the houses
are built to the grade. I am not sure that is (inaudible).
Hepper: (Inaudible) 6 inches the first 10 feet (inaudible) which I see most of these
houses the first 10 feet they are lucky if they have an inch. (Inaudible)
Shearer: Every time we did a house plan we did grade and (inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 92
(Inaudible)
Smith: And that doesn't help them a lot of time in crawl spaces either (inaudible) and
down along the side of the outside of the foundation and under the footings or in the
vents.
Shearer: A lot of them don't have 6 inches of drop the first 10 feet, when they end up
they are (inaudible).
Smith: I don't know if this is too much of a requirement for the developer or not, I really
don't. I don't know what anybody else is doing in our area, other cities, counties. And
it is not, it doesn't seem to be a big problem, It doesn't occur in every subdivision, it is
very difficult to deal with. When you have a low spot and you have houses built
around it there isn't much you can do. You can't just go back and start adding fill
(inaudible) impacting other people that are already built.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: It is easier to try and make that adjustment then to try and raise something. I
am open to what your thoughts would be.
(Inaudible)
Smith: I guess you would have to say that it would be enforced by the building
inspector, I mean they are going to have to establish some kind of grade on the
foundation.
Shearer: I have seen it both ways though. I remember seeing plot plans that the
whole subdivision was set up with floor elevation and everything on each lot.
Smith: We used to do that.
Shearer: A lot of them that I did in those days (inaudible) didn't have that and I went
ahead and established that (inaudible) subdivision plans that had floor elevation on
every lot and how the lot was to drain.
Hepper: (Inaudible)
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 93
Shearer: Not really, it depends on what you are talking about. Having the whole
subdivision done or just doing the individual house and lot.
(Inaudible)
Smith: You can have a lot that drains from back to front, you can have a lot that
breaks in the middle of the lot and the back drains out the back and the front drains out
the front, it depends on the contour of the ground.
Hepper: (Inaudible) between the house (inaudible) the first 5 or 10 feet should be a
positive slope (inaudible) 3 inches or 6 inches (inaudible) at least you have 6 inches of
slope.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: If the builder doesn't know where to set his finished floor in order to get that
slope away from the house and get his lot to drain, he doesn't look at the overall
subdivision plan does he when he sets his foundation? How does a builder know
where to set his foundation.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: If you are first guy in there you set yours according to the lay of the land and
(inaudible) either side of you go a foot above you. And then all of sudden you are way
low and (inaudible) on your lot, not much you can do about it.
Smith: One of the things that happened was out at Candlelight subdivision, the third
phase of Candlelight nobody realized what was going on in the difference in the street
grades from that phase to phase #2. And when they excavated the street in #2 they
had taken all the excess dirt and built a berm back there on the back side of the #2
subdivision. Then they went into the #3 subdivision and started cutting streets and
that berm was up there and nobody in #2 was paying attention because they couldn't
see through anyway. And one guy happened to walk around there one day and take a
look at it, well there was 3 - 4 foot of difference between the street one lot away from
him and the street in front of his house. He came roaring in here and wanted to know
how are they going to drain those lots. The drainage is all coming my way. And he
was right. But nobody in #2 subdivision knew anything about. The developers
started scrambling around trying to figure out what to do with it now. They have all
these houses built in #2 and they had no idea that they had this kind of difference in
elevation between the 2 streets.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 94
Hepper: (Inaudible)
Smith: And they would be able to drain, they might drain down the lot line or between
the houses. But it would be set up so that they would know that is what they needed to
do.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Are you talking in here about
Smith: This would be in the preliminary plat, lots.
(Inaudible)
Shearer: I can't imagine if they didn't check the street elevation how they are going to
check the lot.
Smith: Well, maybe this would make them check it.
Stiles: Would that do anything to help like Chamberlain Estates? How do you
prevent something like that?
Smith: With the pit you mean? No
Stiles: You can't do anything about that?
Smith: That was a storm drainage problem.
Stiles: But who is responsible for that?
Smith: The developer, he just screwed up. (Inaudible)
Crookston: Let's go to 9-605 G and looking at that I don't know why (inaudible).
Stiles: Because of this highways thing, highways, railroads, commercial. Don't we
want it to be on anything but local streets?
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Stiles: Yes, but then we are going to be people saying you have to require it on all
your local streets too.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 95
Smith: One person who shall remain nameless, Dave Collins.
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Stiles: All collector and (inaudible).
Smith: All streets designated collector.
Crookston: Okay 605 I, (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Crookston: Okay L,
Stiles: Are we going to have something about perimeter fencing or did we already
(inaudible), either for construction debris or (inaudible).
Crookston: (Inaudible) instead of encouraged, required.
Stiles: Shall be required. How are we going to enforce that though besides. Are we
going to require the streets be wider and they actually have a stripe, no parking.
Because everybody now is saying we have a sidewalk (inaudible).
Rountree: Is this within the subdivision or is this in an industrial complex or is this all
developments.
Stiles: It says within any development.
Rountree: Which applies in the subdivision, the normal lane would be considered
adequate (inaudible), no striping, no signing, no anything and that is way most designs
(inaudible) indicate either you don't need a special bike lane (inaudible). It is already
provided.
Shearer: So basically we are saying we shall encourage.
Stiles: The only place it would be, that you would really have to require a separate is
when they wanted one through some blocks.
Rountree: Down an irrigation right of way or (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 96
Shearer: Those would stick with encourage I would think (inaudible).
Stiles: It would be required if they are already doing it anyway. If it is going to be part
of the street or the sidewalk. (Inaudible)
Rountree: Those sidewalk provisions are a requirement of ACHD.
Crookston: Leave it encourage (inaudible).
Shearer: I would think so. (Inaudible)
Smith: Back to J on fences, I don't know, there is a section Wayne, in Title IX, 9-807
that also has fence regulations listed there. I don't know if there is a duplication here.
They are a little bit different.
Crookston: 807 as I remember was all a part of 9 (inaudible) old subdivision ordinance
(inaudible).
Smith: Nine says public ways and property, chapter 8 deals with fences. It also has
irrigation and drainage canals and ditches (inaudible).
Rountree: Maybe take a look at both of those and repeal them both or take them out.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: 9-605 M, piping of ditches, I think we talked about this somewhere before.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: We wanted approval of water users addressed. And that over 48" would not
be required to be piped.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: And it doesn't talk about fencing in here does it?
Smith: No, I think we should say that those non-tiled ditches should be fenced with a
non-combustible fence, 6 foot tall, non-combustible fence, concrete, wrought iron, chain
link.
Stiles: Outside the right of way.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 97
Rountree: Does that conflict with some of the uses that folks have tried to make of
them (inaudible).
Stiles: We are supposed to have, except for Eight Mile Lateral we are supposed to
have bike paths on those.
Rountree: (Inaudible) fence between the bike paths (inaudible)
Smith: Well, the irrigation wants to fence it (inaudible) fence the pathway away from
the ditch. And then on the other side where their access road is and our pathway
would be on the side opposite their access road. And on that side where their access
road is (inaudible) they want 18 feet of access road with (inaudible) that close to the
ditch. I think we need to take a look at that fencing the bike way from the ditch
because I think we are, that license agreement that the irrigation district wants us to
enter into with them that liability is part of it (inaudible) hold harmless clause. We don't
have some way to keep those bicyclist or (inaudible) into the ditch I think we are going
to (inaudible). It doesn't have to be a 6 foot fence, it could be a 4 foot fence. Just
something to keep them out.
Stiles: Did they say they would go for that?
Smith: Yes, I think they will.
Stiles: 3 1/2 or 4?
Smith: A 4 foot fence is going to keep out kids (inaudible).
Stiles: If they are big enough to get over a 4 foot fence they can get over a 10 foot
fence too.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: I don't think we can do that until we get a license agreement. Because we are
going to want to put the one fence in their easement.
Smith: I think they will let us encroach on the one side on their easement with a fence.
Stiles: That is why I haven't been telling, I have just been telling them to leave the
land available for a bike path but I can't actually tell them to go ahead and construct a
bike path. I guess I could. (Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 98
Crookston: 9-605 D
Smith: I continue to have requests from US West for a 10 foot wide rear lot line
easement. Right now we say that a rear lot line shall have a total of 10 foot unless it is
a boundary lot line. What they have been providing is 5 feet on each lot to make up a
total of 10 foot width. But US West is saying they need a 10 foot wide easement,
unobstructed easement on each lot, each rear lot line. It used to be that way years
ago in our old ordinance it was 10 feet on each line. The thing that I see happening is
these people that plow these cables under whether it is, and typically it is the T.V. cable
that they are like drunken sailors. That cable goes all over everywhere. And to keep
them and the telephone in a 5 foot.
Shearer: You don't have to worry about those cables, you can go out there and dig
them up with a rototiller.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: I have some problems with that with 10 feet on both sides. You get a 20
foot utility easement right there for (inaudible) I am not so worried about US West but
you start thinking about the cable T.V. outfit and those folks. If they can't run their
business any better than they do now why should we make it easier for them.
(Inaudible)
Smith: US West is the one asking for an easement, the T.V. cable hasn't said
anything about it.
Rountree: That is basically giving 20 feet, that is a hell of a wide easement for fiber
cable that is no bigger than a little finger.
Crookston: (Inaudible) 10 foot easement, it doesn't say, where it says 10 foot total
easement width shall not be less than 10 feet.
Stiles: It says that shall be provided along (inaudible)
Rountree: So it is already taken care of?
Smith: Do you read it that way?
Crookston: Yes
Smith: That there is already a 10 foot easement back there.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 99
Crookston: There is supposed to be 10 feet on each side of the lot line (inaudible). It
says along front lot line, rear lot line, and side lot line.
Rountree: Deemed necessary.
Crookston: Total easement width shall not be less than 10 feet.
Smith: You couldn't have 5 feet on each side of the lot line to make a total easement
width of 10 feet.
Rountree: Not the way this reads.
Smith: So that means down side lot lines you have to have a 10 foot easement too,
but you only have a 5 foot setback.
Stiles: So we put total easement width shall not be less than 10 feet on rear lot lines.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Shearer: Wouldn't it be better, it wouldn't be fair but it would be better if all the 10 foot
was in one property. Like on the back lot line, but if you have 2 fives you end up with a
fence running down the middle of your easement.
Crookston: (Inaudible) total easement width in the rear shall not be less than 10 feet
(inaudible) both lots.
Smith: Shall not be less than 5 feet on each (inaudible) lot line except the boundary
rear lot line which shall be 10 feet. Now that is typical that on the boundary lot line we
have a 10 foot easement on the back of those lots, but on the interior rear lot lines we
just have been requiring 5 feet on each lot for a total of 10 feet. I don't know, maybe
US West can be on one lot line and the T.V. on the other, they aren't both in the same
easement then.
Rountree: Theoretically they like to put those access ports or boxes in the property
corners. So they can pull their leads out that way for T.V. and in most cases they have
the phone in the same corner.
(Inaudible)
Rountree: I know they do with the T.V. because mine runs from that deep to about that
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 100
deep. I saw him put it in with a shovel. The guy had a piece of sheet metal about that
long and about that deep on a big old metal post all the way to the house and put the
wire down the line.
(Inaudible)
Hepper: I think telephone is supposed to be at least 12 inches.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: You want to just make that revision then Wayne?
Crookston: I've got 5 feet on front lot lines, 5 feet on side lot lines, all rear lot lines 10
feet.
Smith: We have 10 on the front because we have power, gas out front.
Crookston: Boundary rear lot lines 10 feet and (inaudible).
Smith: And then the interior rear lot lines would be 5 feet on each side of the lot line, 5
feet down the side lot line.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: This is from the ACHD's standard, one is for a sight distance at a controlled
intersection, at the top of the page and the other one is an uncontrolled intersection.
Most of the intersections we have in subdivisions are uncontrolled that is there are no
stop signs at the intersection. Where we have a stop sign situation such as a street
coming out of a subdivision onto a collector, generally those are stop sign
intersections. I think we need to refer to these sight distance requirements.
Stiles: So they call controlled a stop sign too?
Smith: Yes, yield sign also (inaudible)
Shearer: Don't we just make reference to ACHD's standards.
Smith: We could or we could adopt this as a figure in our appendix. That other one
that was adopted there is no figure, 9-617 A3, is not in the appendix so (inaudible).
Shearer: If this is ACHD's standard we should just adapt it because they will change it
and ours won't match theirs. We will be just like we are.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 101
Smith: We do have a site triangle that shows up on the plot plan for the fence, but it
doesn't speak to controlled intersections.
(Inaudible)
Smith: Either that or like Jim suggested just adopt this as our requirement.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: In case it changes.
Shearer: Yes, otherwise we will end up with a different one between them and us
again.
Stiles: So we are going to say as required by Ada County Development policy.
Smith: Or ACHD's development policy.
Crookston: What are we changing in paragraph B?
Stiles: We are taking out (inaudible) all minor street intersections, clear site distance at
all street intersections.
Smith: Shall conform to ACHD's development policy manual.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: (Inaudible)
Smith: No, just strike that and make reference to the policy manual. 9-606 A, talking
about plans everywhere we talk about plat in there we should add and development
plans. Because we are talking about improvements, improvements aren't really
shown, I guess they are kind of shown on the plat. The actual land improvements are
shown on development plans. Does that make sense?
Stiles: (Inaudible)
Smith: Talking about the responsibility for the plans.
Stiles: (Inaudible) showing on the plat
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 102
Smith: And development plans of the subdivision. Everywhere it says plat in there I
think it should say development plans in that paragraph. Is that all right? 9-606 C,
that is the one where we talked about where the City can.
Crookston: Let me go back to 9-606 A, (inaudible). Changing developer or add
developer and land being developed (inaudible). 606 C,
Smith: That is the one I was asking about where the property owner would grant a lien
to the City. I don't have a problem with it staying in there, I don't know that we ever
used it. If there is some other vehicle that we should put there to guarantee those
improvements or not. It does say that down there near the end of it the City may if
sees fit require the owner and or developer to provide financial guarantees in one or a
combination of the following arrangements for those requirements which are over and
beyond the requirements of any other agency responsible for the administration,
operation (inaudible). Then it goes through the bonding, letter of credit bond, I was
just curious about that lien.
Crookston: (Inaudible) it says that there will be no occupancy permits unless the
improvements are complete (inaudible) or they have been bonded.
Smith: Will and I aren't signing off on the final plat until that is the case. Until we
have those guarantees in hand we don't sign the plat. They can't even get a building
permit until we sign the plat. They can't really get a building permit until the plat is
recorded. We are stopping it before that. So we are requiring that before we sign the
plat and I think that is appropriate in there someplace in the ordinance it does say that
we can do that. I don't know where it is at, but it has to be there.
(End of Tape)
Smith: I've got a copy of the pressurized irrigation that Boise City has drafted that I
gave to you and I guess I would like to have you look at, not necessarily tonight I
guess, but it is kind of a lengthy little epistle about how they feel on irrigation. I found
in my file, Wayne, some time ago you drafted an amendment to the pressurized
irrigation portion of our ordinance. I don't know whatever happened to that, it was,
there was an amended draft or a draft of the amendment and then there was also an
ordinance that was prepared that I have a copy of. I don't know if it ever was enacted
upon by the Council.
Crookston: (Inaudible) what is in the pre-treatment basically is (inaudible) penalties, I
don't think we can do it though in this because that only applies to sewer (inaudible).
The administrative penalties (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 103
Crookston: (Inaudible) add the perimeter fence requirement on subdivisions.
Stiles: We want that to be, I know we have gone from kind of perimeter fencing to just
fencing around the construction area. I think in some cases (inaudible) incompatible
uses.
Hepper: Single family residential, (inaudible) already there and they are putting in a
new subdivision (inaudible). I would say adjacent to agricultural, (inaudible) if there is
an existing subdivision there.
Stiles: What if you are requiring a specific kind of fence and (inaudible) what are you
going to do, we had that problem over in Sportsman Pointe and Hunts Bluff.
Hepper: Double fences
Stiles: Somebody doesn't want cedar they want chain link, but then the other one
requires cedar so we have 2 fences.
Hepper: (Inaudible) or let the homeowners put up what ever kind of fence they want.
Stiles: The developer, if he is going to put it in his covenants he ought to put it up so it
is a uniform fence and it looks all the same, there aren't 5 different kinds of cedar put
up.
Hepper: What if there is already a fence there (inaudible) put up another fence.
(Inaudible)
Stiles: It is not the kind that he requires by his covenants. (Inaudible) that is just
something to (inaudible). One person can't afford to put in a fence, and somebody
else wants to put in (inaudible) well the other person doesn't want chain link they want
cedar but they don't want to pay for it.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Rountree: I think it is just too late Wayne, I don't remember seeing anything where
you can't put up a chain link fence (inaudible).
Stiles: (Inaudible)
Crookston: Did you have any comments on the perimeter fences Gary?
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November 21, 1994
Page 104
Smith: Yes, the developer needs to get a building permit for the fence.
Stiles: It said back here that if it was in conjunction with the principal use of the
property like do people come in for a building permit for their home and also include the
fence in it?
Smith: Yes, for their home, not the perimeter fence.
Stiles: It just says when a fence is erected not in conjunction with the building permit
(inaudible) separate permit is required.
Hepper: (Inaudible) around all new developments.
Stiles: 20 feet high.
Smith: That is what the Council has been requiring.
Stiles: But they are talking about the temporary. And then we are getting into where
we need to define fence.
Crookston: I think what they were talking about was not even perimeter fences it was
come kind of enclosure around the construction.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Smith: They were directing it at the developer. So it was a subdivision boundary, but
the fence requirement, the type of fence we had a developer say (inaudible) 3 barbed
wire fence existing, it is already there we don't need to put a fence up. (Inaudible)
Rountree: (Inaudible) that wouldn't necessarily have to be fencing it could be part of
the preliminary plat that they either have to enforce building practices that minimize
litter problem or they have to install a debris fence (inaudible).
Shearer: Let's have a fine, let's get some money here.
Hepper: (Inaudible) dumpster, and use it. (Inaudible) not every house, you can't
have 20 port-a-potties (inaudible) but every subdivision should have maybe one
subdivision for 20 houses under construction or something.
(Discussion Inaudible)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 21, 1994
Page 105
Stiles: The fences should be along those drains though, those creeks, first thing
before a permanent fence. We are getting lots of junk, lots of fiber glass and stuff in
those creeks. Its a mess.
(Inaudible)
Crookston: Do we want to add, I've got down here occupancy definition changed, we
don't have an occupancy definition. Do we want to add one?
Stiles: Occupancy, touching the ground with any inanimate object.
Rountree: You kind of have to define that to talk about occupancy permits.
Stiles: So back in the definitions you want to do it?
(Discussion Inaudible)
Stiles: Allow it in planned developments only?
Rountree: Well it would be conditional use for the planned development.
Crookston: Allow it as a conditional use in planned developments.
Stiles: Because otherwise we are looking at a variance (inaudible).
Crookston: (Inaudible) tire recycling, it goes back to (inaudible).
Smith: I saw in a city/county magazine once they were using tires for erosion
restraints on ocean frontage. They were tying them all together and stacking them up
and then tying the bundles of tires together, it is quite a deal. They showed pictures of
crabs that were living in tires and crawling around in there.
Stiles: They make homes out of them, (inaudible).
(Discussion Inaudible)
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:38 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
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