HomeMy WebLinkAbout1993-09-14
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING SEPT. 14, 1993
The regular meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission
was called to order by Chairman Jim Johnson:
Members Present: Charlie Rountree, Jim Johnson, Tim Hepper, Moe
Alidjani:
Others Present: Don L. Bryan, Lola Sept, Tammy Tingler, Carmen J.
Mayes, Ross Dodge, Warren Watson, Sheri Baker, John Baker, Raleigh
Hawe, Lynn Clark, Rod Lowe, Diane Beaulieu, Harry Beaulieu, Bev Donahue,
Mike Donahue, Vernon Croft, Don Hale, Ronald Thomas, Michael Caves,
Cheryl Josephson, Penny Danner, Wayne Forrey, Vern Alleman, Wayne
Crookson, Dave Tucker, Robert Morrison, Eldon Kelly, Randy Stevens,
Max Boesiger, Betty Bermensolo:
MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING HELD AUGUST 10, 1993:
The Motion was made by Alidjani and seconded by Rountree to approve
the minutes of the August 10, 1993 meeting as written.
Motion Carried: All Yea:
MINUTES OF THE SPECIAL MEETING HELD AUGUST 16, 1993:
The Motion was made by Rountree and seconded by Hepper to approve the
minutes of the August 16, 1993 meeting as written.
Motion Carried: All Yea:
PUBLIC HEARING ON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN:
Johnson: At this time I'll open the Public Hearing.
Wayne Forrey, 52 E. Franklin Rd., Meridian, was sworn by the attorney.
Forrey: First of all let me say thank you to everyone that's here
for contributing to Meridian, making this an even better community
through this planning process. We've had just tremendous citizens
support through the past 90 days. Probably we've had over 40
neighborhood meetings occurring here in the Council Chambers, meeting
with groups out in the community, at schools, service clubs, this is
our second public hearing, long hours with this Commission and City
Council members, City staff and all of this input boiling down into
this document. In 1978 the City adopted it's first Comprehensive Plan,
some of you've probably seen this there's been a lot of miles put on
this old plan here. In fact, it's been fine tuned, tuned up in 84
and twice in 85 and then again in 1990 but it's time for an overhaul
now. This represents a major overhaul. This was the draft of
PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1994
PAGE 2
our first copy, the yellow one. After that first meeting on August
10th the Commission felt that there was some very good citizen input
and I agree so we put out a second draft and that's this copy. Citizen
input is always good and this plan is getting better and I hope tonight
we even make it a better document yet. Ultimately this Comprehensive
Plan will go to the City Council, possibly it could go in mid-October
for a third public hearing and possible adoption in perhaps October
or November. So tonight's meeting is really important that this
Commission get citizen input because they are in a position where they
have to make a recommendation to the City Council. Any new development
requests that the City is receiving right now they are proceeding
forward, the moratorium has been lifted but we're putting a condition
on all new development requests that prior to approval anything that's
moving forward now through the process will have to be in compliance
with the adopted Comprehensive Plan, whatever form it takes. So that
may mean during October or November that some projects get tabled or
delayed or conditions put on them that they would require compliance
with the Comprehensive Plan. One thing that is important to recognize
in Planning, that a Comprehensive Plan is really a policy document.
It's the foundation that gives you a direction to go. The actual
elements in City Government that dictate the type of development, the
set backs, the landscaping, all of those physical things, the widths
of sidewalks, widths of streets is in zoning and development ordinances
or subdivision ordinances as some City's call them. This Comprehensive
Plan indicates that we need to go a step beyond just a Comprehensive
Plan but actually update our zoning and subdivision ordinances for
quality development. That again is based on just tremendous citizen
input saying let's go beyond a Comprehensive Plan or policy document
let's get down to some specifics and that's the appropriate place to
do that. In the months ahead we want you back at public hearings to
revisit this issue in terms of zoning ordinance revisions, changes
to the development ordinance and other things that relate to good
development practices. It's important that we all think about quality
of life. That's a phrase that's used a lot, sometimes we don't talk
about it enough. It's used liberally in this Comprehensive Plan,
everyone that's commented in this process has said Meridian is a good
place to live and we don't want it to go down hill. One of the major
goals of this process was looking at ways to enhance our quality of
life. That's why we talk about additional school sites, park sites,
recreation facilities, enhancements to the police and fire services,
to make Meridian
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1994
PAGE 3
even a better community. Changes to our zoning and development
ordinances as well. Quality of life is difficult to define but I hope
tonight you'll get a sense of the issues here as they relate to your
own personal life and ask yourself can we live with it. I hope we're
on the right track. I might say this, that this Commission and your
City Council is committed to fine tuning. This Commission will
continually ask you to comment once the Comprehensive Plan is adopted
to see if there's something we need to change or do better.
I'm going to take just a few minutes now and show you some slides and
walk through some of the major issues that are addressed in the
Comprehensive Plan just familiarize a little bit and then we'll turn
it over to a question and answer. The Comprehensive Plan is really
a collection of a lot of studies, looking at the old Comprehensive
Plan, the Ada County Comprehensive Plan and exhaustive water and sewer
master plan that was just completed here in the City of Meridian, the
pathway plan prepared by Ada Planning Association, traffic analysis,
all of these documents have gone into making this a updated plan.
This was a family, I was just out taking pictures one day and here
was a family at the edge of their garden and I asked them what was
important to them and living in Meridian, and the answer was open space.
They liked having a large garden and this Comprehensive Plan reflects
those types of interest. It also reflects the interests of the
development community where there is an economic factor in this
community. We've tried to balance of those interests. The yellow that
you see, it's a little outdated but this is one of the current
promotional maps that a map company in Boise produces for Meridian.
The yellow is the City limits, we're quite a bit larger than that
now but that dark outer boundary that you see is our current area of
impact and we're starting to push outside of that area of impact.
Citizens indicated that we needed to enlarge that to have better control
of quality development on the fringes of the City and well into the
future. There are definitely some competing interest out there between
the rural lifestyle and the urban lifestyle and we saw what happened
to a farmer in Caldwell here a couple weeks ago. This is an agricultural
community but we're growing and the Comprehensive Plan does have
policies in it that directly affect this type of issue and we feel
that we're going to recognize, even though it's a City plan, we are
recognizing the rural interests that are out there. We look at all
kind of projections in the plan, population, economic, building
permits, we looking at about 40,000 population here in the next 20
years in this community and
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 4
so the plan reflects development issues that pertain to that type of
growth. Sewer is a major interest in this community because
development goes where the easiest sewer is located. Those shaded
areas are various sewage drainage areas that have been detailed and
analyzed in a computer program, JUB Engineers prepared that. CH2M
Hill has done the same thing with our water system. In the sewer system
now those green lines and some of the orange lines that you see, this
is what our sewer system will look like 20 years from now. This tells
us that we've got some capacity problems in the old part of town.
It doesn't mean we're over capacity but 20 years from now we're starting
to hit some problems in the downtown which means that Meridian right
now has enough capacity in our collection system to accommodate that
20 year growth projection. But sewer pipes last much longer than 20
years so when you go out 45 years from now you see that we have many
more red and orange lines and so we're going to develop some sewer
problems about 45 years from now. That's good infrastructure planning
for this community because what we put in the ground today or tomorrow
as far as sewer pipe and water pipe is concerned will last 50 years
so we've got to look 50 years into the future when it comes to those
facilities. All of this is on a computerized program and when a
development comes in we can plug in numbers now and run some calculations
and look at the effect that that project has on our collection and
waste treatment system. Our wastewater planning is so sophisticated
now we can tell you the depth, the number of manholes, the invert
elevations, the lengths of pipes, all of that information through a
very large area around the community. The purple that you see is the
current area of impact that has been negotiated with Ada County. The
orange that you see is our proposal to expand the area of impact and
be able to have some say in the type of development that occurs outside
of that purple area. As I mentioned the City limits now are starting
to punch into that orange area already so it's important that we expand
our area of impact. The green that you see is areas that we cannot
sewer so we're proposing that they remain in agricultural production
or rural residential. This is an area along Fairview that is a mixed
area right now. The Comprehensive Plan has substantial policies
regarding mixed use development, planned development that would make
this area attractive and redevelop those rural parcels into some nice
attractive development. This is near Locust Grove and Fairview, again
a mixed area and the Comprehensive Plan addresses that recognizing
that a lot of things could work in that area, residential, commercial,
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 5
industrial, office, as long as it's quality development well planned
and coordinated. This is the back of lots along Franklin Road, I'm
on Eagle Road looking west, this is an entrance into the City. This
is another mixed use, planned use development area. We recognize that
there's homes there and potential businesses in the lower areas but
as long as there's good planning we think they can work successfully
together and the Comprehensive Plan has policies to make sure that
that happens. This is Overland Road looking, well you see the water
tower in the background, this is an area that's important to Meridian
because it's not only entrance to the community but it borders the
interstate and everyone traveling along the interstate, east and west
their visual impression of development along the interstate will be
the visual impression they have of the City of Meridian, it's an
entrance. The Comprehensive Plan has policies that affect the way
development looks along the interstate and along Overland Road. This
is the area on the east side of town, this is designated light
industrial, high technology development planned to industrial uses.
This are is at Ten Mile looking west back towards Nampa. If you look
close, way in the distance you'll see the two water towers that serve
the City of Nampa. This is designating general industrial and I might
say in the Comprehensive Plan we met with the full City Council of
the City of Nampa and reviewed the entire plan because Nampa is planning
all the way to the county line and Meridian is planning west to the
county line so there's been good coordination between Nampa and Meridian
and also with Boise City of the east. We've incorporated the Ada
Planning Association traffic analysis into the Comprehensive Plan to
get the most current update information available looking at
development in roadways now and into the future. You'll notice some
interchange proposals. This is the current Eagle Road interchange,
we're proposing an overpass at Locust Grove Road, this is the current
Meridian interchange and we're proposing enhancements to that
interchange, constructing a new overpass at Linder Road and
constructing a new overpass at Ten Mile, widening and improving the
current overpass at Blackcat and this would be a future interchange
at McDermott Road which would essentially be the east Nampa interchange.
So we've done some very long range things in terms of transportation.
Here we are at I think Ten Mile Road looking back to the east. This
is an area that in the future will develop but again it's going to
be under a ordinance review. Almost a design review type approach
where we look very closely at the way projects are developed along
that corridor along the interstate. The
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 6
Comprehensive Plan recognizes that the market drives development as
well as sewer so you see here a fellow has a sign and he's advertised
that this site could work for commercial or technological industrial
development, our Comprehensive Plan supports that. Let the market
work and let the highest and best use work on these parcels as long
as it's well planned and blended into surrounding properties so we
don't build conflicts. Our waste treatment plant has some special
consideration in the Comprehensive Plan. We do have capacity for
growth but it's being used up. One thing we've got to do is expand
the waste treatment plant, the City is budgeting funds to do that but
at the same time development is getting very close to the waste treatment
plant. I'm standing in the treatment plant looking back to the
southeast near the intersection of Ten Mile and Ustick. Homes are
getting very close so we have designated a agricultural zone around
the waste treatment area for future expansion, much like an airport
with a clear zone. A school is a major issue in the Comprehensive
Plan. It's probably no secret that the Meridian School District is
struggling with some over capacity in the schools. We feel that our
role here is to help the district acquire sites. So when a developer
comes to the City requesting approval we will start the negotiating
process of acquiring a school site in an area where a school site is
needed. Here those brown sites are anticipated Elementary, Junior
High and Senior High school sites. We have also anticipated future
parks to be jointly developed with school facility. The School
District helped identify those locations so now we have some tools
to negotiate with. The Ada Planning Association pathway plan, a
tremendous document, very forward thinking and looks at quality of
life has been incorporated into the Comprehensive Plan and we're going
to start in the next fiscal year to develop a piece of the pathway
that you see here along Five Mile Creek near Tulley Park. We're starting
to negotiate with developers on other pathways so this Comprehensive
Plan, even though it's not yet adopted, we're using it as a tool to
start the negotiation process and here's a project where a developer
has agreed to construct a bike path as part of that pathway plan.
We've anticipated recreation needs, this is a sketch of our potential
regional park. I don't know if it will be built in that configuration
or at the location we would like to have it but at least we know that
we're planning for a regional park in a certain area of the community
so some day we will have that to meet the needs. This is a photo of
the current Tulley Park, an eighteen acre site. The City has just
budgeted $150,000. and
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 7
next spring we'll start land leveling and planting grass and looking
at trees and future ball parks. The Comprehensive Plan also includes
a capital improvement plan, that's where you anticipate future public
expenditures, the amount of expenditure and time line. The two that
you see there that are highlighted are police and fire and in the 1993-94
column you see anticipated there $60,000. to hire additional police
and fire so it's a total of $120,000. that was accomplished by the
way in the budget that was just adopted, the City has committed to
hire two additional police and two additional fire fighters and the
reason that happened is because during the meetings that we've had
citizens said, we want more police. The police department is excellent
but they said we feel with growth there needs to be more officers to
keep quality of life at the level we have now. The same with fire,
so again here's how the Comprehensive Plan works in terms of citizen
input going into an action with the City actually appropriating money
to accomplish that very thing. This is the old Comprehensive Plan
generalized land use map. This is the map we looked at on August 10th.
At that hearing citizens suggested some changes, more mixed use
development around Eagle Road interchange, north of Meridian Road
behind Albertsons, north of Fairview in the Locust Grove area, citizens
also said we want to see where proposed sewer lines are going to be
located. We've made those changes and this is a photo of that. The
large map is right here and we need to discuss the things that are
on that tonight, but now we can point out the drainage areas, future
trunks and we've made those improvements to the land use pattern.
I feel we're making some good progress and I really appreciate everyones
input.
Johnson: Thank you. We'd appreciate it if you'd limit your remarks
to three minutes. Also be cognizant if you will of being repetitive.
Anyone from the public to testify?
Cheryl Josephson, 4302 N. Eagle Rd., was sworn by the attorney.
Josephson: I'm here because of that area right there. The impact
area adjustment shift to Boise City. I live here, and the reason I'm
here tonight is because this area in the beginning I guess there were
people from this area asking to go to Boise but at that time I was
in favor of staying with Meridian until I learned that Meridian cannot
service sewer to that area by gravity flow. Because of that fact it
would put a hardship I feel on me and several people in the area if
that were left out. But because of the cost and the inability to service
it I'm in
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 8
favor of the shift to Boise mainly because of that reason because in
the long term it would make the property basically a lot less valuable.
I'm also speaking for a lady that lives across the road at 4280 N.
Eagle Rd., Leah Melvin. She is also in favor of this happening because
of the water problem and the fact that you can't service it. It's
my understanding that there are some areas in Boise that can't be
services by them in their impact area and to me it would make sense
that maybe you could negotiate a fair trade and go ahead and let it
go. I think Mr. Forrey has done a good job and it would be in my interest
anyway to say yes let it go, even though Meridian is doing some fine
things.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Lola Sept, 4255 N. Eagle Rd., was sworn by the attorney.
Sept: I'm also concerned about the impact area adjustment shift to
Boise and like my neighbor Cheryl I to was originally in favor of staying
with Meridian but understanding that it's not possible to have sewer
supplied to our area I also have changed my mind and feel that I would
support the shift to Boise City. The concern that I have is the current
boundary that's indicated on here that would split my property in half.
Showed Commission on map where her property is located.
Forrey: All of the dark lines that you see are proposed sewer trunk
lines. The area that these two ladies are referring to is this corner
right here. After JUB Engineers did the sewer master plan we realized
that the sewer lines were getting real shallow in this area. We could
provide sewer service to the area but it starts to compromise our
standards in terms of inches of soil over the top of the pipe. They
get real shallow and so from a engineering stand point it's an area
we shouldn't sewer and so we contacted Boise City and they do have
the depth of pipes forecast in that area to sewer that area so we thought
it was prudent that we not sewer that area and allow Boise City to
sewer that area. So the proposal is to make an impact area adjustment
shift to Boise City. Now on this map, we get a little more specific,
in the first public hearing on August 10th our proposal was to draw
the impact area boundary on that dotted line that you see because that's
pretty much where the engineers found where the change in drainage
would be. In other words this property up here would drain back to
Boise City and this property here would come back down to the south
slough trunk in Meridian. But the testimony a
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 9
month ago was that we shouldn't just follow this type of boundary we
should follow property lines and so the diamond pattern that you see
here is our proposed adjustment. So we're going I think on the back
of this ladies property and not through the middle.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Diane Beaulieu, 1895 Star Lane, was sworn by the attorney.
Beaulieu: I have a number of issues I'd like to address and a number
of people who could not be here tonight have asked me to do that.
The first one is I'd like to know where the access to the minutes,
copies of the Comprehensive Plan can be obtained other than here at
the City offices. Is there another place?
Johnson: The minutes I don't believe so. I believe they are only
available here. The plan itself is available elsewhere but the minutes
are only available at City Hall.
Beaulieu: I think it would be nice if it was at the library here in
town and possibly also the Ada County Library because this library
has such limited hours so that more people could see what's happening
in the community and become involved.
The second issue is dealing with 4.3 and 4.4 in the plan and that's
dealing with designating Locust Grove as a bicycle route. It's listed
from Locust Grove from Ustick to Chinden as a bicycle route. I would
like to propose that it would be upgraded to either a path or a lane
and that's because we could tie up to McMillan Road which has three
schools. Also the water is going to be up on Eagle Road, it could
tie up to the Y and probably also the Boise Park there. Right now
this past week there was an article in the Boise paper about problems
with traffic and I would like to say let's be proactive and deal with
bicycle routes before the fact.
The third issue is dealing with rural. Rural in a number of areas
was defined as five to ten acres and above. I would like to propose
that you look at the area because there are some areas that have one
to two acres that are very rural and then you could go to another area
and the one to two areas is not rural. Our area that I'm from is an
area that is very rural. People have horses, they have cows, they
have turkeys, so look at the individual area, don't just define it
as being above five to ten acres.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 10
Finally I don't see that existing neighborhoods are really addressed
in the Comprehensive Plan. I live in an existing neighborhood that's
been there twenty+ years and I would like to see some information as
to what is going to happen to that area when it's annexed. Are there
going to be grandfather rights for the animals that people have? What
is going to happen dealing with tieing up with the City sewer and water?
How much is that going to cost? We have people who are retired in
the neighborhood, we have people who are just starting, so maybe a
five to two thousand price tag is really going to hurt them. I would
like to see some of those issues addressed including water and
irrigation rights. I have one acre and I'd like to landscape it, I
have a lot of trees and would like to assured that when we become
part of the City and it's developed around us that I still can obtain
my irrigation rights and my well won't be dry. Then finally I had
one City Council member tell me that taxes, when we became annexed
would be half of what they would be in the County. Can somebody clarify
that? What is the relationship with being part of the City as to part
of the County?
Johnson: Wayne do you have an historical data on that?
Forrey: No.
Johnson: I don't think we know do we what it would be. I don't know
the source for that.
Forrey: I don't right now but I could get you something.
Beaulieu: I'd appreciate that, thank you.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Ross Dodge, Ada Planning Association, 413 W. Idaho, Boise, was sworn
by the attorney.
Dodge: I'm here presenting the Pathway Plan and I want to thank you
for the opportunity to comment. I'm here to compliment you and support
your Comprehensive Plan as it is consistent with the Ridge to Rivers
Pathway Plan. The Pathway Plan's overall goal or intent is to improve
non-motorized access through neighborhoods, through City's and through
the County as a whole. The plan has received a high level of public
input and support and it is currently on tour to all the local
implementing agencies for their formal adoption. Meridian's component
of that pathway plan
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 11
is a critical part for the plan as a whole. I want to thank the City
Council, Planning and Zoning, Meridian Staff for incorporating their
portion of the pathway plan into their Comprehensive Plan and on behalf
of the APA Board I encourage this Commission to recommend adoption
of this Comprehensive Plan. I believe that including pathways into
the Comprehensive Plan in the planning process will do a lot to improve
mobility for non-motorist and do a lot to enhance this community.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
John Baker, 2165 N. Glennfield Way, was sworn by the attorney.
Baker: I think you've done a very good job on a much needed
Comprehensive Plan Update. I feel there's one part of the plan that
does not seem to be given very little importance to and that is the
improvement of the Meridian Fire Department. I see a lot of talk and
a lot of money spent on parks, and police, there's ratios in there
for 1,000 citizens for policemen, so many acres for parks, no ratios
for the fire department. There is one mention in your capital
construction of some expansion of fire houses. As an example there's
$200,000. to upgrade the Meridian Fire Station in the 93-94 year.
We're in the 93-94 year and there's nothing been budgeted for that
so I'd like to know what affect does this plan, how binding is it upon
the City Council? I think the citizens should be aware that we are
very lacking in our fire protection here.
Johnson: Thank you. We are cognizant of that. Anyone else?
Very Alleman, 2101 E. Ustick, Meridian, was sworn by the attorney.
Alleman: As I stated before I am deeply concerned about farming as
subdivisions move in. People move next to a farm and their delighted
with the open spaces and rural atmosphere until some activity doesn't
meet with their approval. At this point, some people set about to
change the farming operation to meet their desire. I might state that
my boys and I have been farming for 25 years, we have a business and
there is a need and a demand for our services. At this point some
people have set about to change the farming operation to meet their
desire. This is wrong when they move they should investigate the area
and determine whether they can fit into the area and it's activities.
While I want to
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 12
be a good neighbor there are certain farming operations that some people
would consider inappropriate to their liking. There are those who
say the farmer can sell out and move while some might be willing to
do this it is not an option for me and I feel it is wrong for people
to even suggest it. How would you feel if someone came along and said
they didn't like where you were living and you should leave? My feeling
is people should accept the area and activities that exist where they
move to and not try to change them. If they feel they can not adjust
they should move. Idaho Law under Chapter 45 allows the right to farm.
The Comprehensive Plan should include this also as it will eliminate
many problems in the future. It is best to head off these problems
now rather than to try to resolve them later. Many people I talked
to say it is useless to testify before you as you have already made
up your mind and testimony will not change your minds. I thought perhaps
you wouldn't put much importance on just one persons testimony so I
have contacted a few people and they have signed stating their support
for the right to farm. Submitted signed names and address supporting
right to farm. (On file in City Clerks Office)
Letter read at top of petition. "Vern Alleman wants a new policy added
to the land use chapter regarding "the right to farm" - a policy that
addresses "continuation of farming activities without disruption as
a result of adjacent residential development". We, the undersigned
support this policy.
I also have another concern and that is the need for fences between
farms and subdivisions. You have heard fences make for good neighbors.
As I stated previously farming and subdivisions are not compatible
and this the need for fences. We had problems with the subdivision
next to some land that I farmed and after a fence was installed the
problem was practically eliminated. A fence is necessary not only
to protect the farm but also to protect the people in the subdivision.
This is particular true as it pertains to children. The hazards of
farming and children
and children getting in contact with could be very serious so I think
it's only appropriate to incorporate this into the plan to protect
not only the farm but also to protect the children or whoever is in
the subdivision.
I have a copy of the Idaho Chapter which pertains to the right to farm
also here is anybody would like to see it, and I have a copy of the
Washington State right to farm provisions.
Crookston: I think he should submit it for the record.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 13
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Warren Watson, 1680 W. Ustick Rd., Meridian, was sworn by the attorney.
Watson: I'd like to address this question to Mr. Forrey if I may.
Could you focus on the corner of Linder and Ustick Road with the
overhead?
Forrey: I don't have an overview of that. We could use the map over
here.
Watson: My question was, in the Statesman and I admit I haven't read
the plan but in the Statesman it shows that the corner of Linder and
Ustick Road which is now farm land is designated to be commercial.
I guess there is two parts to my question. Number one, what is
commercial? And number two, how far from the center of the intersection
does the commercial zone extend because I own the whole northwest corner
of Linder and Ustick Road?
Forrey: Several things in this particular area, first of all we have
a well site symbol meaning that somewhere in that area in our water
master plan we going to need a City production well. So if you were
to come in today and talk about developing your property we would ask
you about donating a well site to the City.
Watson: You have one I have an artisan I'll give it to you.
Forrey: At this intersection because of all the residential land use
around there the Comprehensive Plan recognizes that we don't want to
force people to one place to do all their shopping and there needs
to be neighborhood commercial services in this area. This doesn't
mean a replacement for downtown or Cherry Lane or K-Mart, it just means
that there's some neighborhood convenience commercial services in that
area and to buffer that against the single family residential there's
a mixed use designation here on the map as well meaning a mixture of
uses predominately in that area I imagine some residential that would
blend into the commercial that's designated here. This is a policy
map, it just means that we anticipate some level of neighborhood
commercial service to develop in that area and then the mixed use
development around it to buffer it against the single family
residential. Your second question was how deep, how wide, what can
I be allowed, that get's into the zoning and development ordinance
which is the next step in this process to define and
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 14
update those ordinances. So right now I couldn't tell you how deep,
it's merely a symbol indicating a need or a potential in that area
for that type of use.
Watson: Well I suppose at my age, 71 years old I wouldn't have to
worry about it anyway but it would be my nice to know that my land
wasn't chopped right half in two.
Forrey: Some folks will live and die by a map like this, they'll say
well you showed a map a line right there and it's supposed to be
commercial and I would just like to point for the record that there's
a word up here called "generalized" and that's what it is. It is a
generalized pattern and from that pattern we've looked at traffic
impacts, recreation, schools, population, public facilities, police
and fire so I'm not guaranteeing you or your wife that your going to
have a Circle K on the corner, but on the other hand if you want to
develop your property and you come to the City with a quality commercial
neighborhood service we'd be willing to talk to you about it because
in policy it would comply with the intent of the Comprehensive Plan
and that's how we would use it.
Watson: So any of us four people on that corner, we could be thinking
in terms of selling to Maverick or somebody else.
Forrey: Yes.
Watson: But the guy on up the road he don't even want to think about
it, right?
Forrey: That's correct at this point.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Dave Tucker, 1438 S. McDermott, was sworn by the attorney.
Tucker: I just had a question, I was wondering what was happening
with the Shoshoni Building on the annexation into the City. What the
anticipated date is or if it's already annexed.
Forrey: It has been annexed.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Robert Morrison, 3841 Woodmont Drive, Meridian, was sworn by the
attorney.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 15
Morrison: The Idaho Statesman again got you people in trouble, it
got me down here. I noticed in that they said extending the golf course,
building a new golf course and this gentleman didn't say anything about
golf courses tonight which was in the paper. It seems to be Meridian's
best kept secret who owns, who runs or how does that golf course run
and even when you ask questions you don't seem to be able to get any
answers. Is it going to be extended? Is it another golf course, what's
going on?
Johnson: Well it's no big secret so we can sure tell you what we know
which isn't a lot.
Forrey: This is the edge right here of the existing Cherry Lane
Development with the nine holes of golf right here. The reason that
nothing has come farther west is because this happens to be the sewer
boundary. If you were up close you'd see a diamond pattern right through
here, in order for anything to develop on the west side of that line,
this shaded area that's vacant looking right here, three things have
to be accomplished. First of all there has to be a lift station
constructed right here. There would have to be a force main that would
take that and pump it back to the waste treatment plant here and then
there's a 33" Blackcat trunk that needs to be constructed south along
Blackcat Road. All of this area drains into this proposed Blackcat
trunk. The City is right now negotiating with Brighten Corporation
to construct a lift station, a force main and about a half mile of
that 33' trunk sometime I think in the next 18-24 months. As soon
as those three pieces are in place then you or anyone else that owns
property in this area would have access to sewer. One of the reasons
the City is interested in pushing that forward is to get that back
nine holes because the community feels that's an important part of
our recreation program to offer more golf to get that extra nine holes.
Nothing is concrete but we're moving in that direction.
Morrison: Is the City, we can't seem to find out, leasing this thing
for a buck a year?
Johnson: I don't know the figure. I know it's leased on a long term
lease.
Morrison: But the City has nothing to do with the operation of it?
Johnson: No.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 16
Morrison: So when we want something done about how it's being operated
who do we go to? I've even asked one of our Councilman and I don't
seem to get much answers.
Johnson: Well since the City is the lessor I'd think you'd have to
go to the City.
Morrison: Can you tell me who, where and how.
Johnson: Well I think I'd start with the Mayor.
Morrison: We've tried that too.
Johnson: I didn't know there was a problem and that's where I would
go. I'm sure all the details on the length of the lease and the cost
and everything that's all public information.
Morrison: Like I say when we have a complaint or something the way
it's being operated we hope it never get's it's other nine holes.
As a tax payer we ought to be able to find out these questions.
Alidjani: Sir, I know in the lease that when the next nine or the
back nine is developed it is part of the original lease for the front
nine. So the same individual that is the lessee at the present time
will run that nine hole.
Morrison: I hope they don't rent my property. Thank you.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Eldon Kelly, 3555 W. Woodmont Drive, Meridian, was sworn by the
attorney.
Kelly: I wanted to echo the gentleman before me's thoughts. I know
you don't want the repetition but I wanted to tell you one thing.
I'm a new comer in the City of Meridian. I moved to the City of Meridian
because I want to commend you people on how you have contended with
the growth that you've had in this community. I moved here for two
things, because I wanted the quality of life that Meridian can offer,
your reputation has far preceded you. Also I bought it because I'm
a golfer. I live on the golf course and in your Comprehensive Plan
I see no plans whatsoever for any type of golf course other than what
we have now. What are your plans? Do you expect to do anything about
that?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 17
Forrey: I guess it's no secret, there hasn't been a public announcement
but the City has two active proposals to the City Council in confidential
situation on golf course development, both private. One developer
has indicated that they would consider developing the golf course and
all the homes around the golf course and then turning it over to the
City for on-going operation and maintenance.
Kelly: My point exactly. I can bring two developers that would do
that.
Forrey: We're talking to one, and the second developer, both of these
proposals by the way are in this immediate area on the map but they've
asked that we not identify for development reasons, but the other one
is up here a private golf course, nine hole executive short course,
played in a hour and half after work kind of thing and they see that
as a real bonus and a need in the Meridian area. While we didn't address
it specifically in the plan I think we should on the public side, but
I just want you to know that the City is looking at two separate proposals
because we recognize golf is important in the community.
Kelly: Thank you.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Amos Vernon Croft, 3410 Woodmont Drive, was sworn by the attorney.
Croft: I would like to have it put in the record that any future golf
course have a green belt around it with a walking path barricaded with
a double line of trees between the golf course and the walking path.
Another item, pressurized irrigation all future developments.
Another item, street lights all future developments, yard lights do
not do the job. With your future growth and the density increasing
your going to need the street lighting.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Randy Stevens, 1760 Star Ln., Meridian, was sworn by the attorney.
Stevens: I'd like to ask some questions about the impact fees. Will
they be on the developers per acre or per home?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 18
Johnson: There have been several formulas proposed.
Forrey: In the Comprehensive Plan there's several sheets tucked in
the back, one of them pertains to impact fees and the hand out indicates
that the City has organized an impact fee committee. The Committee
has had several meetings and we're following the process allowed for
in State Law to implement impact fees. Several things have to occur
before we can implement the fees. One of which is an adopted
Comprehensive Plan, the second item is an updated Capital Improvement
Program, a third item is the Committee, a fourth item is an
identification of acceptable community standards. One of the
gentlemen that spoke tonight about fire he mentioned a standard for
police and standards for fire. One of the standards that's in this
document pertains to recreation. Five acres of park plan for every
1,000 residents. If our standard is more than that or less than that
it makes a different on how you calculate your impact fee. So in this
handout that is in the Comprehensive Plan we've asked for citizen input
on what you feel is an acceptable community standard for police, fire
and parks. Police and fire is a little difficult because if you'd
just had a crime at your house you'd probably want ten officers, but
if everythings fine you could probably live with 1 officer per thousand.
The Police Chief and Fire Chief are doing the best they can but we
need your input and so does the recreation department so until we get
those community standards identified we can't really set impact fees
but here is our schedule after the Comprehensive Plan is adopted and
after we get all of the input on an acceptable standard in those three
areas then we're going to move forward into defining formulas and the
technical studies to implement the fee. So in the months ahead again
we'd like you input and it would most likely be on a per lot basis
that would be collected at the time a building permit is issued and
right now the proposal is to look at a fee on parks, fire and police.
Stevens: Okay. Also I have a concern, we live in a one acre subdivision
and I'm concerned about possibly a buffer area that would give us room
if we could keep our animals that we have, not encroach right up against
us. Several of our neighbors have stud horses and I see a real problem
with children in the next subdivision and the next yard back to back.
Would we be able to keep our animals if you take us into the City?
What is the policy on that?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 19
Forrey: I guess the shortest answer is that farm animals are not allowed
in the City of Meridian nor in Boise City. There are some grandfather
provisions and I'd have to ask the City Attorney I think there's a
time limit on some farm animals in the City.
Crookston: In our Ordinances it reads right now if your property was
annexed into the City and you did have farm animals on it those animals
could stay there as long as you kept them there and if you cease for
a period of time you could still keep them there or if they were removed
for three months let's say they had to go to the veterinary hospital
and they were there for three months you could bring them as long as
no longer period than one year lapsed.
Stevens: Okay is this the same animal or could somebody bring another
one in? Could you sell one and get another one?
Crookston: It's not necessarily the same animal.
Stevens: Okay thank you.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Sheri Baker, 1746 Jericho, was sworn by the attorney.
Baker: One of my concerns again is in response to what Mr. Forrey
was just talking about, community standards, the ratios as far as you
know five acres per thousand people, the police ratios that the plan
shows. Unfortunately I didn't know that the new pink updated copy
was available. Does that address the fire ratios?
Forrey: No, well basically we're asking for your input on a fire
standard.
Baker: Okay. One suggestion that I have heard would be good and has
been requested would be one fire fighter per thousand people. If we
have that how accountable is the Council to holding to that? I mean
what steps do they have to take emergency measures if it gets out of
that ratio?
Johnson: I think ratios are again, guidelines generalized. They are
never going to fall exactly. Because of the growth that would be
impossible, there are some budgetary things that have been done in
this coming fiscal year with respect to the fire department.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 20
Baker: Well very minor.
Johnson: Well percentage wise it's like doubling it.
Baker: That still doesn't give us 24 hour paid fire protection.
Another thing, the way the Statesman said it as far as the response
time is to maintain a five minute or less response time. The plan says
maintain a goal of five minutes, to me that's redundant, you don't
maintain a goal. You either maintain a response time or you try to
achieve a goal and I thought that's something that should be clarified
when the plan is final.
Johnson: That's a good point.
Baker: Another question is on the recycling, my suggestion would be
that we move the date up. In the plan it shows 96 and I would hope
that that would be moved up. I talked to Mr. Yerrington probably a
couple of years ago and asked when are we going to get a recycling
program in Meridian and his answer was Boise was just getting theirs
kicked off we want to wait and see how they are doing. Well that was
two years ago and here we're still talking three more years down the
line and I think that that needs a little more priority. It's something
that we need now and it just gets worse as we grow. I think it's something
that's necessary now. I know a lot of my neighbors, we all recycle
and we all complain that we have to drive down Glennwood or down to
Western Recycling on S. Cole to take all of our recycling stuff and
it seems to me that two years have gone by since I know I first mentioned
it and it looks like three more years according to the plan will go
by before something is done. I'd like to recommend that that date
get moved up and we try and implement something a little sooner than
that.
Forrey: It's referred to in the Capital Improvement Program, the last
chapter. It anticipates schedules in budget allocations from the City
so it doesn't mean recycling couldn't start now. What that implies
is that the City would start to put tax dollars into that program in
1996.
Baker: Then how so we go about doing it now?
Forrey: It should actually start as maybe a private sector activity
and then maybe enhance through public participation. We have a
Commissioner here that's an expert in that area.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 21
Alidjani: For every one thousand you are asking for one fireman is
it a full time?
Baker: Yes full time paid fireman.
Alidjani: We have checked out through the system each house would
cost a private contractor approximately somewhere between $1.50 to
$1.25 at their cost. A private contractor would contract your
recycling program would supply you then, he's expecting to get twenty
five to thirty cents out of each household when he sells those materials
at the recycling center in a regional area. The support was not there
as a majority that they wish to pay another extra $1.25 or $1.30 or
$2.00 for the recycling person to come in and haul that away and the
understanding is that he takes money from me to recycle the material,
then he takes it and sells it and makes more money.
Baker: Yes, I understand that. When was that done as far as that
survey?
Alidjani: The way it works out is actually cost originally to start
the system and it will cost continuously for the manpower and equipment
to continue that on. The way I understood it is it's about $1.25 roughly
per house is the cost to break even per month. That's on a four times
a month service or once a week.
Baker: When was the survey done? When was the last time you polled
people? We have so many people that live in Meridian now, a lot more
people that have moved from other areas and they are used to paying
outrageous prices for not even for recycling and it's mandatory. Thank
you for your information that helps me.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Don Bryan, 2070 N. Locust Grove Rd., Meridian, was sworn by the attorney.
Bryan: First off I'd like to commend all of you for doing such a good
job on this Comprehensive Plan, especially Wayne. It's something we've
needed for a long long time and I reviewed a little bit of it with
the first draft and I saw that it has something in there for fencing
and berming and protection of rural areas where they abut new
developments. I guess I have the same question as a lady previously
that gave testimony, what constitutes a rural parcel? I mean how many
acres does it have to be? More than five, over one?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 22
Johnson: I don't know if we have a concrete definition, do we Wayne?
Forrey: The 1978 plan defines rural as five to ten acre lots and that's
where that has carried through. We didn't specifically define rural
in this update but part of the old plan is incorporated into this so
that's where it comes from. Maybe you could recommend something for
us to consider.
Bryan: Okay I would recommend a little less than that since I have
just under two acres and you know where I live. I have horses and
maybe someday I'll have more than horses, I'll have pigs, goats and
sheep but I'd like to keep a separation between the residential and
the rural. You know as well as I do when I made the agreements with
the previous developer he reneged on them and I had to pay for them
myself. I saw in your draft that you address that problem and you
require fencing to separate the two and berms and landscaping but you
don't say what types.
Johnson: I know there's been discussion on types of fence for different
applications.
Rountree: That gets to the Ordinance level of detail and I think the
policy is the type of fence would be addressed in the subdivision
ordinance specifically.
Bryan: Is that something we have to come negotiate at the Planning
and Zoning Meeting or the City Council Meeting?
Johnson: I think the posture at this point is to handle that on a
case by case basis and I don't see that changing. We might get a little
more defined definition.
Bryan: What happens is you have a developer ready to build a
multi-million development and add a tax base to the City and you have
one person on the other side of the fence fighting his argument and
you look at the two sides and who you going to go with, I mean if we
can't come to terms on the type of fence, I think the decision is going
to go with the money man.
Johnson: I don't really see that happening, it could happen sure your
right. I know we have had specific cases not to long ago where types
of fencing were discussed because of lighting and that sort of thing
for example. We've just always handled those on a case by case basis
and I think that's how they are going to be addressed.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 23
Bryan: I understand what your saying. I just want to bring it to
your attention now so in the future when I'm here arguing again that
I'll say that I talked to you about this in the Comprehensive Plan
stage.
Johnson: Right and now it's on tape and we'll know you did. Thank
you. Anyone else?
Carmen Mayes, 3710 E. Franklin Rd., Meridian,was sworn by the attorney.
Mayes: I was hear the last hearing and I'm coming back with one of
the same things. It was not brought up at your meeting and I'm
concerned. I live on Franklin Road and I've read the old, the new
and the real new and I still see nothing addressing the four lanes
that I feel are needed on Franklin Road. It is a major artery, it
is one of your entrances to the City. Presently already zoned are
enough houses within that mile to make that a major highway. All the
cars do not go down the interstate. At five o'clock in the morning
I can hear the roar of the traffic on Eagle and down Franklin Road
and I assure you it's bumper to bumper traffic, even in good times
and worse when it's winter. I'm concerned that the highway department
itself has not included this in their future plans for 20 years and
nor has this plan addressed that. I will come all the way from the
impact on Cloverdale and Franklin all the way into your City and all
the way further if you want to go into the Boise area until it get's
to the four lane road which is I think Maple Grove. I'm back because
you didn't hear me the first time so I want you to hear me this time.
I also wanted to second the motion by the gentleman that expressed
the maintenance of pressurized irrigation on subdivision lots. I
worked very hard in the Edgeview Estates to get that accomplished and
I believe that ground water in our area is going to be in jeopardy
if we do not start demanding that people in these subdivisions keep
the irrigation and use it so that we can replenish some of the ground
water. Also I looked at the last plan in the Library and I noticed
that review/design that was quite an issue was x'ed out. I don't know
what's happened to that so when I'm finished maybe someone can speak
to that. Finally, a bit of frustration on my part, not only with the
Boise paper but the Meridian paper. I came here Friday night, September
10th and there was no Meridian City Council Meeting. I was the only
car within distance so I knew something was wrong, then I read the
thing again and I saw
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 24
that this meeting was tonight and then it listed there were going to
be besides the Comprehensive Plan, the Zoning and Development Ordinance
and that the Development Fee Ordinance would be discussed. Those are
frustrations I have as far as trying to find out when these meetings
are.
Johnson: Thank you. Have you talked to ACHD regarding Franklin Road?
Mayes: I went to their open meeting and I even wrote it on their charts
but they do not have it listed as one. I think if a City, like Meridian
showed the concern that I feel they should be showing that that would
mean more to them than a citizen like myself appearing and giving the
testimony.
Johnson: Thank you. The City Council meets the first and third Tuesday
of every month. Anyone else?
Max Boesiger, 1399 E. Monteray Drive, was sworn by the attorney.
Boesiger: My concern tonight regarding your Comprehensive Plan, and
by the way I also commend you for doing a good job on it. My concern
is over the financing of it. The way this would be paid for of course
is the issue of impact fees. Although I hate to see impact fees
implemented beyond where they are presently, the reason I say that
of course is because it just raises the cost of the lots and that
generates a momentum. Pretty soon people can't afford to live in Ada
County. That momentum gets started and you can't stop it. We just
had highway district impact fees implemented a few years ago and you
may go ahead and implement two different additional fees and I see
momentum starting and that's a concern to me. But I have to say that
the impact fee at least is a fair tax on growth. It's fair because
every building site pays a fee. You don't just get the big development
and let the little ones squeak through without any penalty and that's
important. At least if your going to do it your on the right track,
I just hate to see it happen. Another thing too that you may not know
about is that the development community is working with the School
Districts and has offered to help them write Legislation to adopt
transfer taxes to go towards schools and what we're trying to do is
get the Legislation where the fees generated would go just to the County
where they were generated in rather than being spread into the rest
of the State like our current taxing structure is. We're trying to
work with them on that to get that kind of Legislation adopted and
what that does
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 25
is it's a smaller tax that would be taxed on the sale of every piece
of Real Estate in the County and that money would stay in the County
to be used for schools. That's a very fair way to tax growth. The
thing that I heard on T.V. that caused me great concern and I hope
they take you out of context the same way they do me was when I heard
Wayne say that what we're going to do from now on is force developers
to give up land for things like schools and parks and if they won't
give it up we won't approve their subdivisions. I heard him say that
but I suspect they took him out of context and I hope that's the case
because that's not - I think you should consult with your attorney
on that issue, that's considered taking. As long as a subdivision
meets all of the requirements of an Ordinance within that zoning
district I don't think you have the right to take anything away from
the development. If you can take away from a developer then that means
you can also take away from anyone else.
Another thing that I hear many people say, even City Officials, even
Mayoral candidates is make development pay it's own way, well it already
does. Developers pay for the sewer lines, water lines, for all the
utilities, the streets, the curb, gutter, sidewalk, street lights,
fences around the subdivision, then when they begin developing houses
the fees that the builders pay go towards paying for it's proportionate
share of the cost of maintaining the sewer plant, the water
infrastructure and so forth. The impact fees that they pay goes toward
widening the streets coming up to the subdivision, anything that
additional growth demands place on the infrastructure. So how can
you say that growth doesn't pay it's own way, it does already. People
should understand that, even especially City Officials and people that
are running for Mayor should understand that.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Betty Bermensolo, 1970 Canonero, Boise, was sworn by the attorney.
Bermensolo: I'd like to offer that I've come to the initial public
hearing that was in regards to the Comprehensive Plan, the initial
draft of it. I've worked a great deal with Wayne, I've discussed a
number of the policies that are contained in the first draft of the
comprehensive plan with Wayne and with the Southwest Ada County Alliance
Board of Directors and we have some policies that we're really concerned
about either adding on to or ensuring that they remain. First of all
school policies under
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 26
enrollment 2.10, based on recommended last class size and current school
capacity exercise options to ensure that quality education is provided
to all school children. Now this is a policy that your not going to
find in the comprehensive plan but one that we feel we should recommend
and would like to recommend. Options might include request the
development community provide additional (in-audible) to a school site
prior to granting a building permit if Meridian School District
indicates a priority. I just heard this gentlemen indicating that
we don't want to mandate to many things to the development community
but I do feel that the price of growth is being placed on the children.
Johnson: Would you give me an example there of what you mean? Just
graphically, why don't you use Meridian High School.
Bermensolo: Why don't I use Mary McPherson Elementary because I'm
familiar. I feel that where there is enough room to add to an existing
school when a large number of children will be attending that school
that it might serve as an option for the development community to work
with that recommendation from Meridian School District in building
an additional wing. I understand that the impact fees are definitely
a possibility but at this time we don't know how the bond is going
to go and we feel that some options and some language might help to
see that if the bond does not pass there might be some action that
can be done jointly with recommendations from the Meridian School
District with more specific language.
Johnson: Let's take your example Mary McPherson, Max Boesiger who
just spoke here is going to put in 200 lots adjacent to Mary McPherson,
are you saying that in order for us to approve that, that we should
tell him that he has to provide enough funds to add a wing onto the
school?
Bermensolo: I don't think that it would have to be a venture that
he entered into independently but I think if there's one developer
that's planning a subdivision, there's probably two or three, I'm just
concerned about those 200 lots representing probably 400 children.
Everybody is aware of the over capacity in the schools but I would
like to recommend stronger language in the comprehensive plan that
gives us some specifics rather than generalities to fall back on.
Johnson: But this specific language that you are using targets only
the developer. Is that right?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 27
Bermensolo: As far as I know the developer is the entity that will
be bringing additional children into an area.
Johnson: No it's the families that have children that bring the kids
into the area, it's not the developer. My point is, and I'm not being
smart about this, my point is that the demand is there. The developer
is filling that demand, is he not.
Bermensolo: I'm not asking the developer not to build the homes, I'm
asking for a board to be specific about the action that they can take
if over crowding, and over crowding will always exist to a certain
extent but when capacities get to the point that their at now, that
specific language be introduced into the comprehensive plan to alter
the situation.
I'd like to go to the next one, brand use. Under General Policies,
I'd like to encourage that 1.15U be worded, discourage strip commercial
by avoiding commercial designation at every mile intersection, unless
the residential need exists. I've discussed this with Wayne and I
think he understands my feeling that you can say strip commercial is
not encouraged by the City of Meridian but I think that you need to
go a step further.
Under residential policies on Page 23 and I'm sorry I'm working from
the initial draft, but 2.2U support strategies for the development
of neighborhood parks within all residential areas, to include
privately owned and association maintained parks. In talking to a
number of developers I have found that developers are willing to include
open area and improve it within a private subdivision for the use of
those children. Now if that went forward in every subdivision and
it could be entry level subdivisions as well with a basketball course
and a small perimeter grassy area but I think that there's a worthiness
by the development community to do that and there would be no stopping
children from going from one subdivision to the other and I don't think
that that would present a problem down the road if it was encouraged
by developers on the whole.
Under rural areas I heard the farmers and people that were talking
about protecting land use and I am a big advocate of protecting land
use. 6.9U Under Rural Areas - Proposed urban density development which
abuts or is proximal to existing rural residential development shall
be subject to design review committee. Approval with representation
and input from the existing residential development.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 28
6.7U Existing Rural Residential Land Uses and Farms/Ranches shall be
buffered from urban development expanding into rural areas by
innovative land use planning techniques including interface
transitional density's and increased set backs to protect rural land
use.
6.11U, this is a policy that I discussed with Wayne and I feel is very
appropriate as part of the development review process in areas where
proposed urban density development will interface with rural lands,
agricultural and rural/residential interest should be involved in
defining appropriate interface transitional density's. I think that
that gives the gentleman that had two acres or less and helps him
interact with the developer who wants to put a subdivision adjoining
his property and they can go forward and discuss what would be beneficial
for both, be it a fence, be it set backs, etc. that will abut his two
acres and I think this could be worked out between the development
community and the existing neighborhoods, if it's recommended by the
City.
I'd like to make a few recommendations here. Recommend keeping the
formal design review committee in place. Especially in mixed use areas
with representation from the existing neighborhood where a project
is being proposed. I do not want to see the design review committee
being disbanded at a time when growth is expected to go in the direction
that it's projected to go. We need to have design review in place.
Recommend as part of the review process a pre-application conference
between the applicant and the existing neighborhood or their
representative. This would be more economic for the development
community if changes were made before the final plat was submitted.
Recommend as part of the review process a pre-screening by ACHD of
subdivisions plats. A traffic impact study might be needed, traffic
patterns and design may require modification. This would be less
costly if done prior to final plat submission. Now both of those last
items have been brought up to me by developers, that it becomes much
more costly after they have gone to submit their final plat to Planning
and Zoning, at that point a lot of money is already expended. It makes
more sense to have the pre-screening. I talked to ACHD about this
idea. They have indicated that they can foresee problems that are
going to require counting devices down the road in the layout of their
plat yet they haven't had an opportunity to really get that input back
until after a lot of money has been spent. I think that those
recommendations might be looked into. The last one comes from
discussing with Mr. Mabe
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 29
this afternoon, the addendum to the comprehensive plan. It reads,
recommend Meridian School District be allowed to purchase Elementary
School sites at developer acquisition costs. I think he spoke to Mr.
Forrey about that item earlier and he would just like to see something
in place that assisted the school in locating school sites in that
fashion. In talking to Mr. Mabe and he apologized for not having
something written, I discussed with him the changes that I see reflected
in the addendum which refers to the school facilities and I was very
concerned as was he about the fact that the initial draft under
enrollment policies included nine policies which I think are excellent
language. I think Wayne did a great job in helping to put some concrete
language in place and in the addendum it's knocked down. In reading
these enrollment policies to Mr. Mabe he indicated to me that he was
very pleased and felt comfortable with the initial draft of the
comprehensive plan but he had not been given or been exposed to the
addendum. I read these enrollment policies and obviously the one that
the Commissioners talked about excluding the 2.2 item that says take
appropriate actions to avoid overcrowding in the school as deemed
necessary by the school district. It was extracted during the August
16th meeting and it no longer is in the addendum. Instead of having
nine policies for enrollment we have three and three that really I
don't feel have nearly as much input and neither does Mr. Mabe. He
would like to see the three previous comprehensive plan as it talks
and relates to school issues be brought forward again. and would ask
why, Meridian school district would not be brought into the bridging
and extracting of the policies when they felt and indicated that they
were comfortable with the previous policies. He also asked me -
Johnson: Your going to have to wind it up cause your about fifteen
minutes into it.
Bermensolo: Okay I'm going to say something here and I'm going to
read it right out of the outlook and I think it's well put. Our children
are paying the price for growth as each school classroom grows more
crowded the quality of education declines, (in-audible) and drop-out
rates rise and credit is threatened. Students face many challenges
today, space to learn shouldn't be one of them. I'm just going to
add that I feel that taking out a great deal of well worded and
constructive information in the school policy section is not putting
our children first. Not with the situation the way it is and not with
the public outcry that exists.
Johnson: Thank you. Any questions of Mrs. Bermensolo?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 30
Alidjani: I'm one of the responsible parties for taking some of those
out and one of the reasons I'll give you one reason out of six that
you mentioned. It was saying that the City of Meridian fully support
the election that is Sept. 28, 1993 or whatever the date is. I as
an individual on this Commission believe until we have heard you people,
I don't have any right to support anything. It is your voice that
becomes our voice. (Explained further - see tape)
Shearer: Betty, where abouts do you live? Are you in Ada County or
are you in Boise City?
Bermensolo: I'm in the County.
Shearer: Have you discussed with the County any about putting a design
review in the County Comp. Plan?
Bermensolo: I understand that the County is going to be doing the
same thing as everybody else and that is revising their Comprehensive
Plan. It will be a recommendation from the southwest I can assure
you.
Shearer: It seems to me that you want every individual to approach
and tell everybody else what they should build on their properties.
I think we've covered design review pretty well in this new Comp.
Plan revision. We don't have a committee doing it, it's done at staff
level. It seems to me that it's covered.
Bermensolo: I feel that with the growth that is projected for Meridian
that it can only enhance the quality of life especially in mixed use
areas if a formal design review committee is put together. (Further
- see tape)
Johnson: Betty you wrote a letter to the editor that was published
in the Valley News where you indicated that this Commission was trying
to fool the people, what did you mean by that?
Bermensolo: I'm not used to going to Planning and Zoning Hearings
in Meridian and I came to the initial hearing and it was an open meeting
and I felt that not only myself but other people were cut-off, I felt
that it was less than a welcoming feeling. I was not sure that there
would be a good turn out on the second one. I felt that an open meeting
should be just that and I thought it was inappropriate at times for
people to be cut-off --
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 31
Johnson: Do you know how long you talked that night?
Bermensolo: I had a lot of things I wanted to say.
Johnson: Do you know how long you talked that night? Well over a
half hour. Nobody cut you off.
Bermensolo: The second meeting which was a time for us to just listen
to input that was gathered at the first public hearing, nothing was
said about what I had said.
Discussion Concerning school issue - see tape.
**FIVE MINUTE RECESS**
Johnson: Meeting called back to order. Anyone else to testify?
Beverly Donahue, 3775 N. Locust Grove, Meridian, was sworn by the
attorney.
Donahue: Page 13 of the new comprehensive plan and I want to talk
about 2.1U and 2.2U. We were at a meeting a couple weeks ago regarding
Summerfield Subdivision and first of all my comments on 2.1U is
routinely educate and update the public on the need to finance new
school facilities, programs of the Meridian School District and create
new Legislature funding programs. My feeling on this is that the public
hasn't been educated at all in the City of Meridian, all we ever get
educated on is it's time to vote for a new school bond because our
schools are overcrowded. Our main concern with this new subdivision
was that the schools have no room for all these new children. (Addressed
further on school overcrowding issue - see tape)
Johnson: Read 2.2U out loud.
Donahue: To take appropriate actions to avoid overcrowding, are you
leaving that in the revised one?
Johnson: No because overcrowding would only be one part of what we
would feel to be an appropriate action or an action that the educational
system might need. Our statement is broader which would encompass
that of course.
Donahue: So defining the word "overcrowding" would you say a school
that's over 100%, 90%?
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 32
Johnson: That's not up to us to decide what's overcrowded and what
isn't because we have to rely on the school district to tell us what
that is.
Donahue: That's my next problem. At these meetings I don't see any
school district people here, do you?
Johnson: I don't see any tonight, we have had some in the past and
of course they worked on some of the committees.
Donahue: Expressed concerns about no representation from school -
see tape.
Johnson: You need to get their attention but I don't think you can
expect us to do that. The invitation is there and they know when these
meetings are and they get a copy of every application that's submitted
and they come back to us with a form letter that says certain things,
one of which is we can't promise your kids will wind up in that school,
they may be bused somewhere else. To this point that's basically the
representation we've had.
Donahue: May need stricter guidelines in comprehensive plan. Mr.
Tolsma made the comment, the school has the power to stop this. They
didn't have the power, the attorney checked into it. What we need
to do is put some kind of guidelines in our Comprehensive Plan that
we have some kind of lead way, I'm all for growth but we have got to
have some kind of guidance in our comprehensive plan that's going to
protect our children.
Johnson: I think you should also address the school board.
Donahue: My next concern is on page 28, in the middle here on 5.15U
on the middle area it says mixed use area at Locust Grove and Fairview
Avenue plus areas north of Fairview Avenue, these areas are - and it
goes on and then at the bottom, in order to stimulate planned development
in these, it was neighborhood, it got changed to area.
Johnson: That's because neighborhoods were specifically defined.
Area is a broader term so it might not necessarily be a neighborhood
that's there.
Donahue: Concerned about rural areas and buffer zones.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 33
Johnson: There are different ways of buffering and density is just
one. There's landscaping, there's natural terrain, there's canals,
drains, ditches, that sort of thing that act as buffers. Buffer is
kind of a broad term that encompasses all those things including
density. (Gave examples - see tape)
Discussion - see tape.
Donahue: On Page 33 where you put in 5.9U the development in areas
of high ground water or poor drainage soils will require engineering
development. When this comprehensive plan was put into effect was
any engineering report done on this considering the N. Locust Grove
area about the high ground water before approving subdivisions?
Crookston: I think for the benefit of you specifically and Mrs.
Bermensolo and all the other public, there's case law from the Idaho
Supreme Court that says that a comprehensive plan basically is designed
to be a general idea and the specifics are delegated to the zoning
ordinance and the subdivision ordinance. There is a specific case
where an applicant came in for a land use and he argued that it was
allowed by the comprehensive plan, the City Council said, no your right,
there was an adjacent land owner that said that can't be right because
the zoning ordinance says this and it wasn't allowed. The land owner
appealed and the Supreme Courts says that's right, the zoning ordinance
is controlling. That's where your specifics are supposed to be is
in your zoning ordinance and your subdivision ordinance. The
comprehensive plan is by it's very nature a general idea of what things
are intended to be in the future. That's why much of this may not
be as specific as you would like to see.
Johnson: The ground water would be addressed when the application
was submitted. If it's in an area where we know what the ground water
problems are in there, we would probably call for a ground water study
at the time of the application.
Donahue: The Summerfield Subdivision didn't have a request for one.
Johnson: On that one we didn't, this wasn't in the old comprehensive
plan either we've just added that.
Shearer: This is not adopted yet.
Discussion concerning the ground water issue - see tape.
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 34
Forrey: As a follow up to one of your comments, the Summerfield project
a few weeks ago, sometimes it's a little cumbersome to explain how
the courts require the City to evaluate development but there's a
Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law that's not distributed until
it's either approved by the Commission or the City Council, but in
that particular of that project it was proved that there was a list
of conditions with Summerfield. One of the conditions on the
Summerfield project was that the developer and the Meridian School
District find an acceptable site for a future school facility. If
you recall the developer indicated that he would do that. In affect
the testimony that you and others provided was in fact implemented.
You have had an impact and the schools are being addressed, perhaps
not in a specific way that your asking right now immediate but over
time I think you'll find that this process will get refined so that
we will have schools constructed as there is demand for those
facilities.
The question was asked about ground water and the City is aware of
that area, in fact we have a meeting scheduled with the developers
and homeowners with water in crawl spaces for next Tuesday here at
City Hall at 4:00 and your welcome to attend. Again, this policy was
placed in because of a lot of the problems that have surfaced out in
that area and the only way we can address it is if people bring it
to our attention and then it's covered in a comprehensive plan and
then we get very specific in our development ordinances. I think that's
the process we're going to take down the road in the future.
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else?
Mike Donahue, 3775 N. Locust Grove, was sworn by the attorney.
Donahue: I've been in California for 25 years in the building industry.
I grew up in that area when it looked just like this. They had the
same problems that you guys are facing right now. They put off all
these suggestions until it got so bad that they didn't any choice.
The City ran out of money, they couldn't pay for the growth that was
going on. So what did they do, they started assessing the builders
fees. I just built a house a year and a half ago, $32,000.00 worth
of fees to build a house. If we force fall all these impact fees and
just say this is going to kill development, that's wrong. When all
these people loose these jobs who's got the money to pay for these
homes. I think the public has a right to their input. (Explained Further
- see tape)
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 35
Johnson: Thank you. Anyone else? No response. A couple of things
I wanted to bring up, we have a letter from Larry Sale at ACHD basically
giving full support to our new comprehensive plan. He includes some
rewording on page 1, policy 6 that he would like to see. Also US
Department of Interior, Mr. Jay Gregg is very supportive of the
comprehensive plan. He thought specifically that we ought to include
the Nine Mile Drain when we mention the other drains. (Page 31 1.1U
is what he is referring to) He also suggests some wording change on
page 23, 1.4U that we should look at. Anyone else on the commission
have any comments?
Shearer: I think we ought to mention that a lot of the items that
have been talked about tonight are really concerning ordinance and
not comp. plan.
Forrey: The lady sitting next to me, Diane Beaulieu, had to leave
and she did hand me this letter and wanted it entered into the record.
It contains some suggestions on noise and weeds.
Forrey: My summary comment would be this, I think we should get to
a point where we arrive at a recommendation to the City Council and
take the testimony that's been offered tonight and prior and continue
to look at that and all of this I think will make a good improvement
to the plan and move it to the City Council so the Council in a different
level of hearing can then re-open this issue and ultimately get on
to an adoption so that then we can move to the issues that really I
think are the critical ones here.
Johnson: Thank you.
Rountree: I appreciate the input from the public.
Hepper: At our last meeting I don't recall anybody saying that it
was in their own special interests to do away with design review or
whatever other item it would be. At the last meeting I did mention
that we need to look beyond our own special interests and do what's
best for the City.
Johnson: I will close the public hearing at this time.
The Motion was made by Rountree and seconded by Shearer to have the
attorney prepare Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law reflecting
the input from the public at the two hearings held on the proposed
Comprehensive Plan.
Motion Carried: All Yea:
MERIDIAN PLANNING & ZONING
SEPT. 14, 1993
PAGE 36
Crookston: Your next meeting is not until next month, do you want
these prepared prior and have a special meeting?
Forrey: It would be prudent to take this to the City Council on the
third Tuesday in October. If we could set a schedule tonight we can
get the proper notices in the newspaper and get a chance to start working
on any changes you want to make and get that available to the public
again to get ready for the City Council Hearing but that would require
a special Planning and Zoning Meeting to approve Findings of Fact.
Discussion concerning scheduling a special meeting.
Johnson: Let's try to have a Special Meeting on Thursday, September
30 at 5:30 P.M..
The Motion was made by Rountree and seconded by Alidjani to have a
Special Planning and Zoning Meeting on September 30, 1993 to address
the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law.
Motion Carried: All Yea:
The Motion was made by Rountree and seconded by Shearer to adjourn
the meeting at 10:14 P.M.:
Motion Carried: All Yea:
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
JIM JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN
ATTEST:
WILL BERG, CITY CLERK
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