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HomeMy WebLinkAbout10-17-02 MinutesMeridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 2 of 76 Borup: October 3rd Zaremba: I'm sorry. October. Reading the wrong one. October 3rd. Yes the minutes of October 3, 2002, as amended. Centers: Second. Borup: Motion and second. All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 4. Public Hearing: Comprehensive Plan Test Amendments regarding Urban Services Policies in the 2002 Comprehensive Plan: Borup: The next item on the agenda is a Public Hearing for the Comprehensive Plan Amendment. First, we thought we might want to ask -- do we have anyone here in the audience to testify on the Comprehensive Plan Amendment, Item Number 4? If not -- Zaremba: Mr. Chairman? Borup: Commissioner Zaremba. Zaremba: I move we delay discussion of that item to -- Borup: After Number 9? Zaremba: -- in the meeting to after Number 9. Borup: Okay. Motion to move Item Number 4 to after Item Number 9. Rohm: I'll second that. Borup: Okay. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Borup: We thought that might move the meeting along for those of you that are here. We don't take -- that may be a little bit lengthy. We don't know. Item 5: Public Hearing: AZ 02-025 Request for annexation and zoning of 6.24 acres from RUT to R-2 zones for Betty Lou Britton by Betty Lou Britton - 3680 West Ustick Road: Borup: Okay. Item Number 5 is a Public Hearing AZ 02-025, request annexation and zoning of 6.24 acres from RUT to R-2 zones for Betty Lou Britton by Betty Lou Britton, Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 49 of 76 Centers: Thanks. Zaremba: Mr. Chairman, I move the Public Hearing be closed. Mathes: Second. Borup: Motion and second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Borup: Do we have a motion? Zaremba: M r. C hairman, I move that we forward to the City Council recommending approval of PFP 02-004, request for Preliminary/Final Plat approval of three building lots on 5.5 acres in C-G zone for Norco Subdivision by Pinnacle Engineers, Inc., 2150 East Fairview, to include all staff comments. Centers: Delete Number 3 on Page -- Zaremba: With the exception of deleting comment Number 3 on Page 2. Mathes: Second. Borup: Motion and second. All in favor`? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Centers: Could I move for a break? Borup: Yes. So moved. Was it? (Recess.) Item 10. Public Hearing: Comprehensive Plan Test Amendments regarding Urban Services Policies in the 2002 Comprehensive Plan: Borup: We'd like to reconvene our meeting this evening. We had moved Item Number 4 on the agenda to this point. This is a Public Hearing on a Comprehensive Plan Text Amendment regarding urban service policies of the 2002 Comprehensive Plan. Open the Public Hearing at this time and start with the staff report. McKinnon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. There are a few of you that are new to the process. I think Commissioner Zaremba -- I don't know if you were on the Commission when we went through the Comprehensive Plan, Commissioner Mathes, Commissioner Rohm. Nick, I think, a well. Just a little bit of background for you on the Comprehensive Plan and the process and why this is in front Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meetlng October 17, 2002 Page 50 of 76 of you tonight. Part of the State Code is the -- oh, Title 67 of the State Code, the Land Use Planning Act, charges you, as the Commission and the city, to go through and make a Comprehensive Plan for the city. That's a future land use map and to take into consideration all of the things that you see in the recently adopted Comprehensive Plan. One of the items that was heavily discussed during the Comprehensive Plan hearings was the urban services planning area, the effectiveness of an urban services planning area and the enforcement of an urban services planning area and whether or not it's legal to use it as a growth prevention tool and other discussion items related to that. The reason that we are talking about this again tonight is because in the old Comprehensive Plan there was language that prohibited developers from developing in the city's area of impact within the urban services boundary -- on this map it essentially follows all of the area of impact, except for this small portion of land down in the corner of Victory and Ten Mile area. Urban services planning area follows the entire map, other t han that I ocation. T he o Id C omprehensive P Ian i t s aid t hat a nybody t hat w as proposing development in those areas that did not connect to the City of Meridian's services, which would be utilities and other services, but more specifically the discussion dealt with water and sewer, if they did not connect, it did not comply with the Comprehensive Plan and so any development in those areas didn't meet the Comprehensive Plan, therefore, the city said we should deny it. The reason why that's important is because somebody can go to the county, because the land is in the county, it's under county jurisdiction, Ada County would send us a letter if they received any development applications in our area of impact and they would say we have received this development application, does this comply with your Comprehensive Plan. The answer used to be automatically no, because it does not meet city services, it doesn't connect to the city, so we should not connect it if it does not comply with our Comprehensive Plan. There were other items for saying no, leapfrog development and other types of issues, but our Comprehensive Plan was very specific saying, absolutely not, if it doesn't connect, don't let it happen in the City of Meridian. This city -- not the city, but the county does have ultimate decision and we are a recommending body only when there is a development that takes place in our area of impact and it's applied for in Ada County, Ada County has the final decision. Let's fast forward to the new Comprehensive Plan. The new Comprehensive Plan has language in it that allows for members of the Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council to consider development in the area of impact within the area -- within the urban services boundary area, to consider approval of those with private water systems, private septic systems, batch plants, that type of service. Now the City of Meridian does not have an automatic no when they come -- when someone tries to develop in the county. We can't say, no, it does not comply with our Comprehensive Plan, because we do not allow development in this area. Now we can say it does say that you can consider it and some members of City Council felt that it should be allowed to take place out there. There is a lot of areas in the City of Meridian's area of impact that could be developed with a private system that the City of Meridian has a long time to go before we will be able to provide services and some people felt they should be able to develop in those areas and so there was a lot of discussion to decide what criteria should be required of those people wanting to do that. Should they be allowed to have their own private system and never be required to connect with the city in the future? Should they build a system that would allow Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 51 of 76 connection to the city in the future and would work with our master plan? Or should it just be outright prohibited in those areas, according to our Comprehensive Plan, and there was a lot of discussion. You have got a packet that Brad Hawkins-Clark put together for you and he outlines, in much more detail than what I have gone over for you tonight, the information concerning this and if you could turn to the very end of your packet, it has an Option A, Option B, and Option C. In the heavy discussion that took place, Option B was something that was felt could work and that would be the option that would allow new development to take place. It should only be considered if connected to the City of Meridian's water and sewer systems where extension to and through those developments constructed in conformance with the City of Meridian's water and sewer master plans. Rather than just allowing the development to stay private, it would have to be built in a way that would allow connection in the future to that. There are a number of developments in the City of Meridian's area of impact that do currently receive water and sewer from the city that are not annexed. Keltic Heights -- n of K eltic H eights, V ienna Woods, t hank you, a nd Edinburgh Place, b oth o f t hose subdivisions are not currently in the City of Meridian's city limits, but they do receive city services, water and sewer service, from the City of Meridian. In the future they will be required to connect -- not connect, but to annex into the city. There was an agreement that was signed by the developers to say that in the future when this property is contiguous to the city -- for those of you that may not know in order to be in part of the city you have to be contiguous to a current part of the city. When it becomes contiguous it would be required to connect to the City of Meridian. But Option B falls more directly into what has taken place in those areas. They do connect to the master system, but they were brought to -- the lines and the services to those areas prior to us wanting to necessarily do that as part of our master plan. That's the option that was the preferable option. There are opinions that there should be no urban services planning area that people should be allowed to develop, because it's land and if they can bring the services to it or provide the services to it, they should be allowed to develop it. There is the opinion that the City of Meridian should be able to control the development of that by limiting the development area to the area that we can provide services to, so that we don't grow faster than we can provide services. One of the reasons that can be made for not allowing the city services to go the areas that not annexed is one of the issues involved with this. We can go through some of the specific questions that Brad brought up in another part of this report concerning if we allow the development in the county. All the development fees that would be -- other than the water and sewer fees, such as building permit fees, those fees would go to the county and the city would not get those. Park fees would not be retained, because they would go to the county. There are a lot of issues at play with this. One of the options could be that the Ada County, in adopting our Comprehensive Plan Area of Impact Agreement, they could agree to allow the City of Meridian to take park impact fees from developments outside of the City of Meridian, but in the area of impact that are not annexed at this time. That's something that could be added to that, so that those people that would be utilizing the city services are actually paying into those services. That when they become part of the city -- when they become contiguous, that they be required to connect -- that they be required to be annexed into the City of Meridian. Let's go to Brad's notes. He's got some questions, actually, that he had asked the Council to Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 52 of 76 address. L et's g et you t he p age t hat's o n. I t would b e P age 3 of h is memo, d ated August 23rd. To Mayor Corrie and City Council. Those questions start on Page 2 at the very bottom. These were -- he labeled those as talking points to the City Council Meeting and that they just -- they start from there and go forward. If you wanted to go through each one of those as presented, that could be a way that we could handle this Public Hearing tonight. If you're comfortable with the language that's in the current Comprehensive Plan right now, you could recommend to the City Council that we keep the exact language that we have right now with no changes. If you see some changes that you would like to make during the discussions tonight, you can make those changes as well and make that as a recommendation to Council. This is a text amendment change only, it's not a Comp Plan map change, so we can make this without prohibiting anybody six months from doing this, and this is something that can be done at anytime. Borup: I would like to -- and maybe some input from the other Commissioners, after looking this over, I would like to maybe discuss the three options, and I don't know if we need to go through all of the talking points, because I think those are incorporated in the three o ptions, if that's -- would the rest of the Commissioners like to discuss those? Would that bean appropriate place to start? Centers: Yes. Zaremba: I would ask acouple -- I guess theoretical questions. Borup: Go ahead. Zaremba: Before we get into -- Borup: Did you have anything else to add, David? Okay. Go ahead Zaremba: I can see that it's in Meridian's best interest to do two things, to keep growth contiguous, prevent leap-frogging, you know, so that things stay dense and growth expands in an orderly manner. The other piece of it -- it's in Meridian's interest to -- the specific service, to control water and sewer usage, since the water table is so close to the surface and Meridian's source of water is deep wells, I don't see how we can risk having people in our neighborhood just develop their own systems. Who knows whether somebody will not maintain it and contaminate our water source. Borup: Well, those are regulated by state, but -- agencies and such. Zaremba: But my thought would be our control on that would be to say that development can only happen -- probably go back to the old statement, the '93 statement, that development can only happen contiguous to the city, that it be annexed -- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 53 of 76 Borup: The current language that we have came about just to allow some flexibility as it -- you know, as a pro item since, but -- and I was advocating that strongly, because I just think it can be a bad thing to eliminate something completely and have no flexibility, no options. The thing that concerned me the most --and I'm not in favor of the present language anymore, and that's because of the fact that the city loses control. The way I understand the present language could allow the county to approve a development with other than -- you know, asking for input from the city, but the city has no veto power or anything and that -- that's my biggest concern with the present language. I don't think Meridian wants to give up that control. Centers: Yes and, Mr. Chairman, I don't think -- and, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong -- the city didn't have veto power before. McKinnon: That's correct. Centers: The county would come to us and we would write a letter back Borup: That's the way the current language still is Centers: C ouldn't t hey h ave d one, a ven u nder t he old C omp P Ian, t hey c ould have approved what they wanted to? McKinnon: Yes. That's correct. Centers: Okay so we didn't have veto power before. Borup: No. Centers: And since I have got the floor, this was a hot topic of discussion in the Comp Plan meetings, Mr. Chairman, as you know, and a hot topic with builders, developers, realtors, and is this an end run? Because I don't see any builders, realtors, developers here, other than him staying, because he just knew we were going to talk about this. That's what kind of irritates me, is this an end run around the public that testified at three different Comp Plan hearings -- and I don't think you were here either, then, Dave -- or maybe for the last one or so. This was a hot button and, to be honest with you, I have objection to the current wording, especially when you read the last sentence. All requests for annexation in the city limits will still require city-owned services. If they put in their own private sewer system, if they put in their own well, we will require them to hook up to city water and sewer. That's what that says. Final sentence. I'm highly in favor -- totally in favor of the present language just the way it's written, because I like the flexibility. I don't know like to hamstring a developer that he's sitting out there two, three miles from our contiguous city property, that would be contiguous, and he's sitting there with land that he can't develop if he wants to develop and put in his own well and his own sewer system. It's been done in the City of Boise and since annexed. They have numerous -- well, I shouldn't say numerous. I know of one subdivision in particular on South Cole that was on its own sewer system and has since been annexed, so, you Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 54 of 76 know, it -- but it gave that developer the opportunity to develop it without city services being provided. He did his own thing and he put up his own money and he went for it and I don't think the developers should be hamstrung and limited to not being able to do that i f they w ant. T hey h ave g of t o h ave money a nd t he ability. I 'min favor o f t he present language. Zaremba: I can be swayed by Commissioner Centers' argument, in that I have many times said that I have difficulty inserting my own judgment after something has gone through hearings and hearings and hearings. Centers: That's right. Zaremba: I do agree that most of the issues are covered in the current wording. I think the issue that is left o ut and is a ctually a mechanical t hing in how it's operated and doesn't mean a change of the wording. The thing that is left out is that when a development is done outside of the city limits, the city doesn't get a review fee or an inspection fee at the time it's being built. That may be able to be solved by -- well, if somebody outside the city puts into the middle of an existing sewer, they pay a latecomers fee. Can we attach, not by changing the wording on the Comprehensive Plan, but something in an ordinance that says there is a latecomer fee for everything. There is a Park Impact Latecomer Fee there is a police and fire -- Borup: Well, the Boise collects their park impact fee in the county, because they have got an agreement. I have been asking why the city -- why Meridian hasn't had an agreement in place for years. We haven't had any subdivisions until Vienna and Edinburgh, to that's the first one that we have lost the park impact fee on, but Meridian -- or Boise collects all the park impact fees from county subdivisions. Mathes: Who does the inspections? The City of Meridian or county? Borup: The county. Zaremba: Well -- and at the time that they apply for annexation or we force the annexation, either way, I could see there should be another inspection fee. The city still needs the -- Borup: Not for the Building Department, there is not another inspection. Zaremba: Well, are we going to accept this system if it hasn't been maintained? Maybe it was reviewed by the -- Borup: Yes. That's two different things. The one inspection fee you're talking about is the building department. You're saying the sewer. The sewer would be inspected -- Zaremba: The water system and sewer system. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 55 of 76 Mathes: Do they have to pay to hookup? Freckleton: Yes. In the case of Vienna Woods and Edinburgh, it is a City of Meridian system and we provide all of the plan approval, plan review and approval, all the construction inspection. They come in, they pay the hook-up fees with us, and they pay for our permit -- or our water meters, everything right at our permit counter. It's kind of a weird deal with them, because they have to go to the county to get the Building Permit, but they have to come to us to get their hook-ups. In those cases we actually had a -- there was atwo-part agreement. One was aNon-Build Agreement, which means -- and now these agreements were with the developer. The Non-Build Agreement basically stated that people are not going to be going to the county to get Building Permits until they have -- until the subdivision is at least built to the criteria that they would be required to be built in the city to get a Building Permit. In other words, the streets -- street signs have to be in, the water system has to be in and passed all of its bacterial testing and pressure testing and have live fire hydrants, so that we have fire protection. You have got to at least have a road base in that will support a fire truck and that sort of thing. These are things that every developer has to comply with in the city limits. That agreement covered those developments. Then we also had a Non-Occupancy Agreement, which basically covered us for all of the final items in the development, the landscaping, fencing, street lights, everything had to be totally finaled out before we agreed to release that agreement or release that developer for occupancy on those homes. We did retain some control, but that was all done through the process of approval for those developments. I believe they also, in the process, they actual filed an application for annexation and zoning as part of their plat approval process. That's on file, so as soon as we become contiguous, we basically act on that application and it's a done deal. There is language in the deeds, I believe, that the homeowner accepts -- you know, that makes them aware of that situation when they buy a home, that eventually you're going to be in the City of Meridian, whether you like it or not. Zaremba: But did the developer just go along with that out of cooperation or did -- or would we be able to say that's a rule and enforce it on somebody else? Borup: That was a condition of running the services there. Freckleton: Correct. Centers: If you want to get city services, you have to sign on. Zaremba: But can they eliminate all of that by the county saying you don't need city services, the way it's presently worded? McKinnon: The City doesn't have a veto ability with the old Comp Plan o r the n ew Comp Plan. If the county says we are going to allow them to do this, it happens. Yes. We are just a recommending body to the county. That hasn't changed. By the wording on this -- the wording would be more specific as saying, okay, Ada County Commissioners, previously it said we wouldn't allow this at all, now the language says Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 56 of 76 we would consider it. If we were to take Option A, that would go back to the old way. Through option B it would be to Edinburgh, Vienna Woods -- the Vienna Woods option saying I et's give you the services, but let's make you part of the master plan. Then Option C is the language as it currently is and that leaves it wide open, saying if you guys want to propose something, the City of Meridian is open to that possibility. B is -- provides alittle more control for the city in saying, okay, county, we got your referral letter and if you are to approve this, county, we would like you to approve this with them connecting to the city and providing services to and through this property, just like Vienna Woods. Centers: What if your services aren't available? Then there is a lot of -- you know, the utilities aren't available to all the areas you're speaking of where Option B might be applicable. Borup: I think that was the intention of -- was it just the two of us that were here? Okay. That was -- my intention at that time was that the city would have the stay and if the city didn't approve the project, that it could not be approved by the county and I'm assuming that's probably what the City Council assumed, too. Maybe not. Centers: But, Keith, that was never the case. Borup: Well, that's what we are finding out now. Centers: Yes. Even before the county could approve it without the city -- Borup: Well, but they weren't and maybe -- McKinnon: In working with the other government of Ada County, they would follow along with it, so that there are good relationships. They understand that we are trying to plan a city, rather than planning segmented growth, and so they usually just follow with the recommendation -- Centers: But don't you think that relationship would continue? McKinnon: I do and it's -- like you said, it was a hotly contested item and the reason why it's hotly contested is that the probability is still there, it opens the door a little more than it was before. Centers: Let me ask you this, how did this come up? A couple members of the City Council felt that they wanted this reviewed and because of the legality and the text change, it had to go back to the P&Z with a notice of Public Hearing? McKinnon: That's correct. Centers: So did I hit it right on the button? Meddian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 57 of 76 McKinnon: Right on the -- Centers: It was a couple Council members? Okay. McKinnon: And during that time they wanted to have it come back to you, because that's the proper way to do it. Centers: After the Comp Plan was approved. It had to be. Borup: Right. Centers: Because of the text change. The whole Comp Plan was a done deal. McKinnon: We discussed at the time -- Centers: They had five meetings, didn't they? Borup: More than that. Centers: Yes. Borup: They went on longer than we did. Centers: And now they want to come back to it. Or a couple people do. Borup: Now why -- whom were the notifications sent to? I mean besides the public -- I mean a notice in the paper that -- was that sent to the stakeholders -- major stakeholders that testified in the original hearings? Zaremba: Ten other people or something like that. Centers: I think just the notice in the paper, that's what I -- McKinnon: That's about it. Centers: Yes. Which no one reads? Borup: So a letter did not go out to any stakeholders or interested parties? Some of the major interested parties that --like the BCA and the realtors and some of the major - McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, I'm not aware of who the notices went out to on this application. Zaremba: I thought in passing I saw that letters were at least -- notice was sent at least to Mike Wardle, Larry Durkin, Mark Estess, and John Eaton. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 56 of 76 McKinnon: That was the title of the memo that Brad Hawkins-Clark prepared on August 26th. Zaremba: Yes but somewhere else it said those people were noticed for this meeting, I thought. McKinnon: Did it? Borup: For this meeting tonight? Zaremba: I thought so. I could be wrong. Centers: I didn't see that. One of those individuals probably wouldn't get his mail. Borup: Don't think it would be forwarded? Zaremba: Well, I guess that -- the only reason I would be willing to review this is the comment that if private use -- we have a statement in the current approved one that says that if private utilities are constructed. It will be the city's policy that said private services be constructed to City of Meridian standards, because they will eventually revert to the city upon annexation. What I saw in -- was it Gary Smith's comments -- was who is going to review that now while they are installing it and Brad's answer to that is that they go to our Building Department, they file the fee, we go inspect it -- I'm comfortable with the current language. Centers: Well, here is another point -- and I refer to this every once in awhile. We have a couple of members of the City Council that want this reviewed. I would like to see us just go with the present with the present language and let the City Council fight it out. They are the ones that have to a pprove the text change anyway, so if they want to make a text change, let them make it. Borup: Or submit to us a proposed change, basically what you're saying? Centers: I don't think it would have to come back. I don't know. Borup: Yes, but a text change has to originate here, doesn't it? McKinnon: It originates here. The text change would -- they can make a recommendation for a text change. If there is no change that you guys propose -- Borup: Can they do a text change without arecommendation -- can t hey do a text change on their own? McKinnon: They hold a Public Hearing based on what you submit to them. Borup: But what if -- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commisslon Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 59 of 76 McKinnon: They can change your recommendation. Borup: No. Can they do a text change without P&Z recommendation? Without a P&Z hearing? McKinnon: No. You guys have to make a recommendation, whether it's a recommendation to forward the existing -- Centers: Yes, but what Keith's asking, if we recommend retaining the existing, it goes to them, they have that recommendation, can they say, no, let's go with Option A or B? Borup: Sure. McKinnon: Sure. Centers: Yes. Okay. That's what I'm saying. Let them have at it Wollen: Wouldn't that essentially be an origination in the City Council, then, instead of -- instead of in the P&Z Commission? If it's brought by the City Council to the P&Z, P&Z does not change anything and, yet, there is a text change made. I think that that -- you know, if there is the procedure that it must originate in P&Z, and then I think there might be problems there. Centers: Does the text change need to originate or does the Public Hearing need to originate? McKinnon: The Public Hearing needs to start here. We a re n of a governing board here, we are just a recommending body to the goveming board, so you would make a recommendation and the goveming board would make that decision. Centers: And they can override our decision and go with A or B. McKinnon: That's correct and, Commissioner Centers, if we could go back to a comment that you brought up earlier, where did those lines come from, the sewer lines. When Vienna Woods was approved, when Edinburgh was approved, the developer paid for the sewer lines to go there. Borup: That was a temporary basis. McKinnon: And so those sewer lines that were placed to provide services to those locations, were provided by the developer and so they are the ones that paid the cost of the development of that. Centers: How far did he have to take them? Half a mile? Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 60 of 76 Borup: They took them about where the grade school -- the school is there on Locust Grove now. The new --the new --what do you call it school? Freckleton: It was approximately a mile. Centers: How close do you have sewer down in this area? Freckleton: We have sewer to the Thousand Springs Subdivision. Center: Okay. Freckleton: And the Sherbrooke Hollow Subdivision so when the Tuscany develops -- yes. What Dave is pointing to will -- Centers: Yes. That's -- Freckleton: And the Sutherland Farms Zaremba: So we are nearly within a mile of the outer limits of the impact area anyhow, almost all the way around. Borup: Except for the southwest. Zaremba: Except in the northwest. Freckleton: There are other constraints that we live within and that is capacity of lines, trunk lines, and that sort of thing. Keith kind of touched on it a little bit when he said that they were temporary. Let me just explain that a little bit. The Vienna Woods and the Edinburgh development, they put in a lift station. They are pumping their sewer back south to a line by the Summerfield Subdivision by the new school site, which is the wrong service area for discharge of their sewer. At the time Vienna Woods and Edinburgh went in, the White Drain, the trunk line that you guys have heard about, we didn't have it and that was the only way that we could get the sewer down there, was to let them pump to that wrong service area. At the time that that happened, we had some extra capacity in the South Slough Trunk to take that sewer. There was a lot of pressure at the time Vienna Woods and Edinburgh was happening, they were talking with our neighboring jurisdiction about services and, you know, the possibility of getting the line moved. You know, the approval was that they would be able to pump temporarily back into the South Slough's trunk service area. Now that we are doing the White Trunk, at the time the White Trunk comes across to Locust Grove Road, their line will be cut off and it will discharge into the White Trunk. So -- which is still the wrong service area. Borup: That's what I was going to say, shouldn't it be going to the North Slough? Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 61 of 76 Freckleton: Basically, the way the sewer works is we have got a trunk line in this three mile section, we have got another trunk line in this three mile section and so, basically, we are just getting it a little closer to where it should be. When that White Trunk goes in, it will have plenty of capacity to pick it up with the developments that are being proposed. The Lochsa Falls project is coming in it's been approved, that's the start of the North Slough in the north -- Zaremba: Well -- and it's actually annexed, so it's got to comply with the rules. Freckleton: Right and, you know, we have seen the plans on the subdivision that's next door to it. You guys haven't seen it yet, but that's basically two miles of the next trunk line that's being built by developers. No city funds. Mathes: Who paid to hook from the one into the other and then into the other? Does the developer? Freckleton: The city is going to be the one that -- to make that conversion at Locust Grove Road, which is not a big deal. Borup: It's pretty minor, isn't it? Freckleton: It's not a big deal, no, because we are running the trunk like right to Locust Grove. It's just a matter of intercepting their line and dumping it into a manhole. Mathes: So if you have one down there that they their own community sewer and water and you finally get services down there, who pays to hook it up from the community into the city? Freckleton:. Well, that's a good question. We have not been faced with that. That's a very good question. You know, their system would have to be designed such that elevations were set per our facility plans, so that when we do get there, you know, they wouldn't be below us, they would have to be matching up grade wise with us to be able to gravity. Mathes: You would have to be able to do that also, wouldn't you? Freckleton: Oh, Yes, yes, yes. Borup: See, my idea on designing something that is going to be compatible is that would all go into a manhole and then go to their -their sewer system, but when the sewer line came up you could connect in that same manhole that's already there, so there wouldn't bean expense, I don't know if that's practical as far as -- Freckleton: Sure. Sure. It's just a matter of making sure that that manhole elevation is going to be at the right elevation once we get there. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 62 of 76 Borup: But they could build and design a system, but it should be a matter of hooking a pipe to, which -- Freckleton: Sure. Borup: And not even constructing a new manhole. Freckleton: Exactly. Borup: And maybe blocking off the one -- Freckleton: Gravity to the low end of the development and put a stub out. Borup: I'm going to -- is there a -- sometime here I'd like to make a motion not -- before we end, that the city -- and I don't know if that can originate here or originate in the City Council, but that we have a Park Impact Fee Agreement drawn up and signed with the county. We may never have anything going to come up again, but if we wait -- if we wait until -- that was the excuse last time with Vienna Woods, they said, well, it would take too long to get it together. Well, if we would have jumped on it then, we could have got three-fourths of that subdivision and Edinburgh, too. Before we leave I'd like to maybe make that as a motion and whether we ever use it or not, that's fine, but I would think -- Zaremba: At the conclusion of this subject? Borup: Yes. The other question I have is -- is there a limit to types of agreements we can have with the county? Has that come up before? Can we have -- can we have a written agreement with the county that they agree to that they would not allow any development in our area of impact without full city approval, that does give us veto power then? Wollen: It would be tough, Mr. Chairman, to enforce that or to even have -- it would be tough to get the county to agree to any such agreement and -- Borup: Within our area of impact? Wollen: Within your area impact. I still think that the county is going to see, you know, signing such agreement or the agreement in principle as taking away from their power and giving it to the City of Meridian. I -- you know, if the city could convince the county to enter into such an agreement, I don't think see anything basically wrong with it, but I really doubt that the county would ever do that. Borup: Well, I would say not maybe on everything, but, you know, I'm saying what we have got now, you know, five acres and below -- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 63 of 76 Freckleton: That's what I -- maybe entertain the idea of an urban density type agreement. If theywant to entertain the idea of an urban density type development that -- Borup: Right. Wollen: And practically speaking that might be -- Borup: Yes. I'm sure they would want some type of restrictions there. You wouldn't want the city to veto afive-acre subdivision or something like that. A five-acre lot size, I mean. Well, I would like to see that pursued, too. Well, I guess it depends on what happens with this, actually. McKinnon: Just one more item number to note is that the City of Meridian has adopted this Comprehensive Plan. Currently, the county has not adopted it and the county is currently using our old Comprehensive Plan. Until such time as they adopt the new Comprehensive Plan, they are still working off the old Comprehensive Plan. Borup: So do they have that scheduled for a Public Hearing? McKinnon: That was something that we discussed when the Commissioners met with the Council. There have been some formal discussions as to when that will take place. I can't remember any specific dates that were discussed at that meeting with the county commissioners. The Ada County Commissioners have to approve the city's Comprehensive Plan, because we are dealing with areas that are in Ada County right now. We are talking about the development of lands that currently reside within Ada County's jurisdiction. Borup: What's the procedure on adopting our Comprehensive Plan? Do we need to apply -- do we need to make application? Do they do it automatically or -- McKinnon: I have a dually h and d elivered copies to all of t he C ommissioners a t t he county, went down and dropped them off for each one. They have an opportunity to review it just like our City Council does. They hold a Public Hearing and they adopt it. Borup: Who determines when? They don't have any time frame or -- McKinnon: There is no specific time frame that was set up when I dropped them off. We met with the county commissioners about two weeks ago here to talk about some area of impact adjustments. At that time, I raised the issue that the new plan was not yet adopted by the Commissioners. Our Council asked that they set up a specific time to do that and they said that they would. Borup: They said that they would? McKinnon: They did say that they would set up a time to do that. Currently they are working off of our old language. They haven't yet adopted this language, so if there is Meddian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 64 of 76 any changes to it, when it changes it goes to the county commissioners again. They are also approving the language that we are adopting. Borup: So they will move that along as quickly as they did the boundaries? McKinnon: We had the discussion with them and they said we have reviewed it and we don't see any problem with it. We need to formalize it and actually take care of it. They have had a number of weeks, months, now to review it and when they were here they didn't have any -- Borup: Well, I mean the boundary approval I think took from'93 to -- McKinnon: '97. Borup: -- 2000. McKinnon: Oh, the area of impact? Borup: Yes. The area of impact boundary. McKinnon: Right. That was a long time. You're right. Borup: Seven years before they approved that. McKinnon: The very p reliminary discussions I had with the commissioners was very favorable towards adopting it. They said let's get this adopted and let's set up a time to do that. If we make any changes to what they adopt, of course, this will go back to them as well and they have to a pprove it as well. Otherwise, it's not something they are working off of and they would revert back to the old Comprehensive Plan that says absolutely not. Borup: Commissioner Centers, you know, I can only really remember --and there might have been another one. I can remember one application that felt they wanted to develop something and with their own septic system, other than a couple of the guys in the north, because they thought they weren't going to be approved, but that's behind us now. Centers: Yes and -- Borup: The only one I can think of was Walt Waters' commercial project that he was talking about doing at Meridian and Amity. No. Bob Warner. Centers: Yes. It was - Borup: Anyway, that's where the gas plant is there and where they were going to put the ball field -- yes. He was talking about wanting to do a C-Store or something there Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 65 of 76 with eventually apartments and townhouses, but the townhouse stuff he wanted to wait for sewage. He was talking about getting the sewer system in just for the commercial development. I can't remember anyone else that had anything -- McKinnon: Powder River. Westborough. Borup: That testified at the Comp Plan Hearings? McKinnon: I don't believe they testified at the Comp Plan Hearings. Borup: Okay. That's the only one I can think of at the Comp Plan Hearings. Centers: Yes. It was mostly the developers and -- Borup: The wanted to leave the door open, but nobody had anything specific, they just -- Centers: Right. Right. Well --and, you know, how many specifics did you get, really? Borup: That was it. Other than -- well, there was some of the guys in the north area that were concerned about that. Centers: Most of the specifics were regarding zoning and -- Borup: Right. Centers: Yes. Borup: You were starting to say something, David? McKinnon: Nothing. I was just going to try to crystallize, I guess, the issues. We have got the three options and the three options really represent the old Comprehensive Plan. The last one, Item C, or Option C represents the current, and B is a modification that falls somewhere in between both of those and those are the three major ways to handle this. Do we allow them to develop and then connect, such as Vienna Woods? That's the Option B. Option A would say no. Option C would say yes and B would say yes as well. Borup: But B would say, yes, with our sewer and water. McKinnon: Our sewer and water. Just like -- Borup: C could leave it open to their own private system. McKinnon: C would leave it open for a private system, like the -- Borup: In the interim. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 66 of 76 McKinnon: Correct so these are, really, the three main options, past, present, and somewhere in between. Unless you guys have another way of wording it that could be added to that. Zaremba: In my opinion, the wording covers it. It says even if they do private utilities, it will be constructed to the city standards and reverts to the city upon annexation. I mean how much more -- McKinnon: Is that Item B that you're talking about? Zaremba: I'm talking about the current wording. I copied this out of page 92 out of the current Comprehensive Plan. That was the next to the last sentence. I guess the side I'm coming down on -- to use an example from Monday Night Football and challenging a ruling on the field, I don't see any controvertible evidence that would compel me to overrule the wording that has been developed in all the previous hearings. Centers: And that's the way I feel. Zaremba: Everything we question I find covered in here. Centers: That's the way I feel and I'd like the City Council to decide, because we went all the way through this many times and if you have a couple dissenting voters on the Council now, they should have done it earlier. They had a number of hearings. If they want to change it, that's up to them. They are the bosses. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, just one item on the way the existing is written. What they can propose would have to build to city standards, but it doesn't necessarily have to connect at anytime in the future, it would just be that the city would take over. The wording is that the city policy on private -- if private utilities are constructed, it would be the city's policy that said private services be constructed to the City of Meridian standards and would revert to the city upon future annexation. It doesn't necessarily say that it will connect, just revert to the city. The reason to keep people form doing that is because if they developed it out there, like Bruce was talking about, with the depths being at a different depth than what our master plan shows and our sewer comes passed there at 15 feet under what they have got, the City of Meridian will never have that connection. The City of Meridian may take over the private facility that's there and take over the maintenance, but the connection is not guaranteed by the Borup: What's the definition of the City of Meridian standards? Does the Public Works Department determine that and if they don't -- if they don't provide for connection, then that doesn't meet the standards. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 67 of 76 Freckleton: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, that would be my interpretation, would be our standards and specifications that we have established. However -- Borup: Can they be established or can you establish them as you review the project? Freckleton: Well, we do have a master plan for the entire sewer system that lays out rough elevations. It gives us a guideline of where we need to be main size wise and depth wise to make the whole system work. Borup: Because I mean they are not going to have -- you're not going to have a written set of standards that's going to apply to every project they would be looking at, so you would need the flexibility in saying this is what our standards are. Freckleton: That's what I was going to say we don't have standards for private owned -- or private self-contained systems. They would be a case by case, but I believe that the full intention of where we were going with this is that they would be designed to be able to hook up to our system once they were annexed. Borup: You would need to review their plans and that's part ofwhat - Centers: Right. We have said that. Zaremba: And that's the way I would read constructed to City of Meridian standards is that it has to be connected. Freckleton: Yes. Zaremba: It has to be at the elevation that we will eventually approach them at. Freckleton: I don't think the city is interested at all in operating a packaged system. Zaremba: The standard is it has to be connected. Freckleton: We have spent a lot of money on a sewer treatment plant, so -- you know, maybe that language needs to be clarified a little bit. I don't know. Maybe that's where we are going with this is making that a little clearer. Borup: Well, what I thought where we had the control is the sentence that says may be considered and assuming that the city was the one that would make that decision if it would be. If the city doesn't have complete control and, you know, if there is a chance that the county is not respecting the wishes, then I still have concerns. Centers: The key to the whole paragraph, which satisfies the developers and the builders, was, however, it is recognized that some development may precede the ability of the city on its own to extend services for such development. Upon formal request to Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 66 of 76 the city, the development that is on property not immediately serviceable -- but that was the verbiage that they really wanted in there. Zaremba: Well, unless, as Commissioner Centers pointed out earlier, the final kicker is the last sentence. If it's ever going to be annexed -- Centers: We are going to own what they put in. We may not -- Zaremba: And it had to have already been built to city standards, which, includes to me, connectivity. Centers: As Bruce said, we may not want to own some of those, but better to own them than not. McKinnon: Well, I have exhausted everything I have got to say on this topic. Zaremba: Is a motion in order to close the Public Hearing on this? Borup: Unless any of the other Commissioners have any other comment. Well, even if they do, we can still make all the comments we want. Zaremba: So moved. Borup: And staff can, too, so we are not excluding anybody here, are we? Centers: Second. Borup: Oh, I'm sorry. Motion and second. All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Borup: What are our feelings here? Which direction are we leaning? Zaremba: I h ave s tated m y p eace. I 'm c omfortable w ith i t s aying I eave t he c urrent wording. Centers: Yes. I'd like to make a motion, Mr. Chairman, moving on, regarding previous Item 4, now it's Item 10 on tonight's Public Hearing, Comprehensive Plan Text Amendment regarding urban services policies on the 2002 Comp Plan, I would recommend to City Council that we retain the existing wording referred to in tonight's conversation on the text amendment regarding urban services planning area, which is referred to on page 92, the bottom paragraph. Retain the existing language. Zaremba: I will second that. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 17, 2002 Page 69 of 76 Borup: Motion and second. Any discussion? No one would like to speak to the motion? All in favor? Any opposed. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Borup: Okay. That closes that Public Hearing Item 11. Tabled from September 18, 2002: Planning and Zoning In House Laundry list -Subdivision and Zoning Ordinance Amendments: McKinnon: I guess I have got just a couple things for you on the laundry list. First and foremost, if we are going to talk laundry, I talked to Brad about the shirts and he said this would be the last time we talk about it and -- actually, it's hot the last time we will talk about it. It's something that we can probably do. We are starting in the new budget year, it's the beginning of the year, so it's probably something we could work in at this time. Last time we talked it wasn't part of the new budget year and we were scraping the bottom of the barrel, but it's probably something we can work out. Borup: Maybe this better be the year, because next year's budget may not be -- McKinnon: So that's something that you guys may want to think about, what type of shirt. We could probably support a variety of different types and there was some discussion of denim dress shirt or a dress shirt, an oxford or the polo shirts. Discuss amongst yourselves a nd we talked about it a Hough at s taff I evel t hat the g iris i n t he office wanted me to let Commissioner Mathes know that the polo shirts have matching female ones as well that are specific for you. It was something that has received some discussion in our office. Onto some other issues. The Sign Committee that the City of Meridian used for developing the new sign ordinance that we have and we have been using for the past year and a half is starting to resurrect itself again. There are a number of issues that were raised. Some of you were here when Blaine Jacobson from Subway and his architect came in and talked to you concerning some modifications to the sign ordinance. There are a number of other modifications to the Sign Ordinance that need t o take place, s uch as s ign s tandards for t he O Id Town D istrict, w hich we currently don't have. I wanted to put it as an option to one of the -- a couple of you as Commission members to see if you would like to sit on that committee. It would be a couple meetings, probably finro or three hours at a shot, probably starting in the month of November, probably the second or third week, the 11th through the 15th, that workweek. They will probably try to meet the first. Commissioner Zaremba, are you volunteering or Zaremba: I would be happy to. I will be out of town until the 11th. I come back on the 11th McKinnon: Okay. Then we will keep you in the loop. If there is anybody else that wanted to jump in on that, I just put that out to you. I have already touched on the fact that I will probably have some more language for you concerning the new annexation