HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 03-11
Meridian City Council Meeting March 11, 2003
The Regular Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:10 P.M., on
Tuesday, March 11, 2003, by Mayor Robert Corrie.
Members Present: William Nary, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, and Cherie McCandless.
Others Present: William Nichols, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Brad Watson, Will Berg, Ken
Bowers, and Dean Willis
Item 1. Roll call Attendance:
__X Tammy de Weerd _ X__ Bill Nary
__X Cherie McCandless __X Keith Bird
___X__ Mayor Robert Corrie
Corrie: I will open the Meridian City Council Regular Meeting on Tuesday, March 11,
2003, at 7:10 p.m., in the Meridian City Council Chambers. At this time, I'd like to have
roll call attendance, please, Mr. Clerk.
Corrie: Thank you. At this time I would like to do a special announcement. Let me get
up here. Just a moment. I would like to have Mr. Jim Johnson come up here. Jim,
would you, please. As you know, Jim has been a great servant to the City of Meridian
and the community and we had him as our Meridian Development Corporation
chairman and he's chaired a lot of committees for us in our Planning and Zoning and
we'd like to give him a little memento of some of the things that he's done for the city.
And at this time I would like to present Jim with the key to the city and also -- recognize
that picture on the top, Jim?
Johnson: Yes, I do.
Corrie: That picture at the top here, what this is is Jim has his insurance business now --
or did -- or maybe still owns it, I think. Okay. But this is what it looked like back in 1961;
is that right, Keith?
Bird: Yeah.
Corrie: Okay. What this says is that Jim Johnson, Meridian Development Corporation
Chairman, presented in appreciation for your dedication and service to the City of
Meridian, for your volunteered time and effort and the promotion of downtown
revitalization is clearly appreciated and greatly appreciated by the citizens of this
community. Presented by Mayor Corrie and Meridian City Council 2003. Jim.
Congratulations.
Johnson: Thanks, Frank. That's the first you have taken my picture, right, Frank? Nice
to see all you people. Kind of like old home week. I haven't been in here for a while.
Nice to see you, Bill, you're back in your old playing weight. Keith, you're looking really
good. I remember Tammy when she was a blond. Mayor Bob, Bill, and Cherie, and my
buddy Will Berg and lots of other people here in the audience. I see my buddy over
here, Kenny Bowers, hiding in the corner, so -- and back there, Becky Bowcutt, she just
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March 11, 2003
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told me that I improved her English a little bit. I have made some contributions, no
matter how small they might be. Anyway, this is a great honor for me. I have enjoyed all
the work I have done for the City of Meridian and for our service organizations in our
community, the Chamber, and the Kiwanis Club and -- but the special thing and the
thing that's meant the most to me is working directly with the cities -- with the city and
being on the fringe of what's going on in this dynamic, growing city. I have got to know
an awful lot of good people and I can vouch for their efforts and I can tell you that your
City Council is dedicated, that your Public Works Department is dedicated, that your fire
department is dedicated, and the police department, the question is still out on that one.
I only say that, because I haven't worked closely with the police department. I'm sure
they are doing a wonderful job, too. The other departments I have worked with. So, I will
put this on my wall and add it to some other plagues I have got. I do really appreciate it
sincerely and I appreciate your time and for all of you interested in those that aren't so
interested, I thank you very much. Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Before Jim walks out of the room.
Johnson: You knew me when I had hair.
De Weerd: I came tonight because I thought it was a roast of Jim Johnson. You know,
Jim has also served many years on Planning and Zoning, so you have countless years
to this community and it's very much appreciated and I do expect to see you at 7:30
tomorrow morning.
Johnson: I thought I cut that cord.
De Weerd: Maybe after tomorrow.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda:
Corrie: Thank you, Jim and Virginia. All right. The next item on the agenda is adoption
of the agenda. Any corrections or --
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: As discussed earlier, we will add to our regular agenda for our regular meeting
Items Number 5 from the Pre-Council Meeting, Items Number 7, Number 8, and
Number 9, which will be Items 12, 13, 14, and 15 on the regular agenda. With that I
would move that we adopt the agenda as noted.
De Weerd: Second.
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March 11, 2003
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Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to adopt the amended agenda. Any
further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed
no? All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 4: Consent Agenda:
A. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: AZ 02-
028
Request for annexation and zoning of 81.54 acres from RUT
Cedar Springs North
to R-8 and L-O zones for proposed
Subdivision
by Howell-Murdoch Development Corporation – south
of West McMillan Road and west of North Meridian Road:
B. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: PP 02-
027
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 197 building lots and
33 other lots on 81.54 acres in proposed R-8 and L-O zones for
Cedar Springs North Subdivision
proposed by Howell-Murdoch
Development Corporation – south of West McMillan Road and west
of North Meridian Road:
C. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: VAR
03-003 Variance
Request for a to allow blocks 7, 9, and 13 to
Cedar
exceed 1,000 foot maximum block length for proposed
Springs North Subdivision
by Howell-Murdoch Development
Corporation – south of West McMillan Road and west of North
Meridian Road:
D. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: RZ 03-
002
Request for a Rezone of 3.66 acres from L-O to R-15 zones
Scottsdale Villas Subdivision
for proposed by Pinnacle
Engineers, Inc. for Wolfe Commercial Enterprises, LLC. – West
Alden Drive, southwest corner of West Franklin Road and
th
Southwest 7 Avenue:
E. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: PP 02-
029
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 19 building lots and 2
other lots on 3.66 acres in a proposed R-15 zone for proposed
Scottsdale Villas Subdivision
by Pinnacle Engineers, Inc. – West
Alden Drive, southwest corner of West Franklin Road and
th
Southwest 7 Avenue:
F. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: CUP
02-045
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a Planned Unit
Development for 19 single-family attached units in a proposed R-15
Scottsdale Villas Subdivision
zone for proposed by Pinnacle
Engineers, Inc. – West Alden Drive, southwest corner of West
th
Franklin Road and Southwest 7 Avenue:
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March 11, 2003
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G. ACHD Road Widening Franklin Road Project / ROW Purchase
Agreement :
(Fire Station and Storey Park Franklin Road Frontage)
H. Sanitary Sewer and Water Main Easement Agreement with Ed
and Shirley Bews:
I. Approve Bills:
Corrie: Item No. 4 is the Consent Agenda.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we approve the Consent Agenda as published and for the
Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest on all proper papers.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion made and seconded to approve the items on the Consent Agenda
through I. Any other discussion? Roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Department Reports:
A. Public Work’s Department – Brad Watson:
1. Continued from March 4, 2003: Request for Sewer
Service – Anthony Mahaty, 2075 West Franklin Road:
Corrie: Item No. 5 is the Department Reports. Public Works Department, Brad Watson.
Watson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Council Members. This is a continuance of an item last
week requesting sewer service to a property that's not within the city limits, but is
contiguous to city limits. As you recall, I discussed briefly the proposal last week and
you had asked me to contact the applicant, so that he could answer some of those
questions for you that I could not. I do see Mr. Kartchner in the audience tonight and I
will turn it over to him. I don't have anything to add from last week, so --
Corrie: Give your name and address, please.
Kartchner: Richard Kartchner, 4325 North Ten Mile, Meridian.
Corrie: Thank you. Anything you want to say differently or --
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March 11, 2003
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Kartchner: The -- I guess the only thing that I want to say in behalf of my client is that he
would like to get his double-wide trailer onto his property as soon as possible and we
were afraid that going through the annexation process was going to take three to four
months. Is that appropriate? So, it's a time issue. That's the only issue that we are
dealing with here. We presently have an application for a Conditional Use Permit in the
county, which we expect approval on before -- you know, shortly. So, that was kind of
the plan, get the double-wide moved on as quickly as possible for Mr. Mahaty, so that
he could stop having to pay excess rent where his lease is running out.
Corrie: Brad, is -- I've got a blank mark here. Is this property contiguous to the city?
Watson: Mr. Mayor and Council Members, this property is contiguous across Franklin
Road from -- well, perhaps not Caparelli Sub, but to the west of that -- the property on
which Sanitary Services is currently trying to build their facility.
Corrie: Okay. And, then, they are requesting just sewer service, not water?
Kartchner: Right.
Corrie: Council, questions?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess -- correct me if I'm wrong, Brad, but I think we have connected
someone in the past -- I think it was more because they had an immediate need,
because their system had failed, but, then, they agreed to start the process at that time
to begin the annexation process. Have we done that before?
Watson: Council Member de Weerd, you're correct, there was one last summer that
drifted into fall, but it was an emergency request for a connection to the sewer system
and they did file for the annexation application and I believe that was approved and the
ordinance passed here in the last three or four months.
De Weerd: And I realize the reason we did that was because of the emergency
situation, but is that something that -- I guess that would be a consideration at this
point? Could it be a consideration at this point? Would staff support that?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, we have extended services in the past
such as -- there was a church on Locust Grove Road, if I recall correctly -- services
were provided to that facility. It wasn't that they were -- you know, that they had a
system failure, that was a new construction, but they agreed to annex when contiguous
and I think we have provided in the past services to properties who have signed a
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March 11, 2003
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consent to annex, filed a petition for annexation, have been allowed to hook to the
services and let the annexation take its course. So, it wasn't that the annexation had to
occur first, there just had to be an agreement -- irrevocable agreement to annex first
before the services could be provided. I know that that's been done in the past.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: So, we could perhaps entertain a motion to the effect that extending the
services upon receipt of the application for annexation.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: But the other question here is that all they are asking is to hook to the water, not
to sewer --
Bird: Sewer, not to water.
Nary: Or sewer, not to water. And, normally, we haven't extended one and not the other.
It's all or nothing. You know, you can't have half. Can't have half the load, you got to
have all of it, only because we don't have another method to come back -- otherwise, to
come back and get the water hooked up. So that's our method, is that if you want to be
annexed into the city, then, you have to comply with those requirements and those
requirements come together.
Kartchner: Is there water in front of that property?
Watson: Mr. Mayor and Council Members, today there is not water in front of that
facility, but the plans that Sanitary Services is preparing and is, actually, in my office for
review right now has that water line across the frontage.
Nary: So, as long as the requirement was that you had to hook to the water services
when it's available and the sanitary -- and the sewer services now and you could apply
the application, it's not a timing thing, that won't be a problem.
Kartchner: I don't believe so. There is one other issue, however, and that is the sewer
connection is going to have to probably, as understand it, Brad, be a pumped sewer;
right? And we are going to have to lift to a location down the road from us about 400
feet away. So, the actual sewer that we would eventually hook into and gravity flow is
not going to happen for some time. And so I would guess that the client would be
responsibility for putting in that entire pump line; is that correct?
Watson: Mr. Mayor and Council Members, Mr. Kartchner is absolutely correct. We
wouldn't extend facilities to them, they would be simply be allowed under this approval
to plug their private -- it's not a lift station, but pump to our facility and, he is right, that
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March 11, 2003
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property is designated to flow southward into a future trunk that comes off the Black Cat
Trunk in the future. So, this would be a temporary solution.
Corrie: So, they would be in agreement that they could hook onto the sewer, pump
where he needs to pump, and as soon as the water is there and the sewer is there, he
has to start the application for annexation to the city. Is that correct what you're saying?
Council, I mean --
Nary: He has to do the annexation now, he can hook to the water when it's available,
and he can hook to the regular sewer line when it's available, but he can hook to the
pump station now.
Kartchner: And I'm sure my client would want to do both of those things.
Corrie: I just want to make sure that everything is in line here. Okay.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie. Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess I would just ask the attorney to make sure that the language is there,
so when that permanent trunk line is established, that we have a mechanism to get
them to hook into the correct sewage line. I think we had a couple of problems in the
past and just pay particular attention to that.
Kartchner: Is that something I would wait for the city for some sort of document?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, we have a standard consent agreement
and we would simply include in that agreement some recitations about the future gravity
-- you know, when that -- when that pump would have to be disconnected and when
connection would have to be made to the gravity system.
Kartchner: And you would draft that agreement or provide that for me?
Nichols: In fact, I think the last several -- I can't recall -- excuse me, Mayor -- if we have
been drafting them or Public Works has been using the form, but I think we drafted them
with input from the Public Works Department. So, we -- we don't do a lot of them, we
probably do a couple three a year, and the last -- the last one I remember doing was
one where once the agreement was signed, then, the services were provided and they
also applied for annexation and that went through the process, so --
Corrie: Before you leave. Kenny?
Bowers: Mayor Corrie, City Council Members, we have not seen anything yet from Ada
county on this. Joe had looked about -- looked and talked to Ada County. We haven't
received anything on this. Talking -- if it's going to become a church, we possibly are
going to have to have water flow in that area. The closest fire hydrant there is now at
this time, I believe, is at Interstate Battery. So, there is possibly going to be a water flow
requirement for the church.
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March 11, 2003
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Corrie: Is this going to be a church?
Kartchner: Yes. At present it's a small one. I think he's -- well, his intent is to put a
double wide on initially, just while he builds his main facility somewhere on the site and
that's the conditional use we are applying to the county for right now. A temporary
doublewide with a permanent building later on.
Corrie: You have to meet the fire department's water -- the county and fire department
has to be together on this with the water. Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Well, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, that's correct. I mean there may be,
you know, International Building Code issues or fire code issues with regard to fire flow
availability, but if Sanitary Sewer is going to be running water out in front of there in the
near future, there will be sufficient fire flow -- it would be a hydrant. And I think probably
will -- if it's not -- if a hydrant alone isn't enough, depending upon the size of the
building, then, the water should be there with sufficient pressure to be able to do the
things that need to be done on a permanent building.
Corrie: Will the water be there when that building is there, though? I don't know. If you
want to put that building up now, how long is it going to be before the water is there,
Kenny?
Bowers: Mayor Corrie, City Council Members, I don't know at this time how long the
water to be there. The water might be there, but there probably won't be any hydrants
on Franklin Road, that I know of. They would probably be back in the subdivision with
Sanitary Services and the school district, but they might have to put one out on Franklin,
possibly.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Members of the Council, just a reminder that we do have an agreement with
Mr. Morrow that when the water is within a certain distance of his building, that he is to
put in -- he's to extend the line and install hydrants for him and so I -- you know, I don't
know that -- I mean if all it takes is an extra hydrant on Franklin Road, then -- I mean
they are not cheap, but, certainly, to have a hydrant installed on Franklin Road would
not be too burdensome with the water lines going -- because that's where the main line
is going to go, isn't it, Brad, is down Franklin?
Watson: Mr. Nichols, you're correct.
Kartchner: Are there not some exclusions for hydrants if you sprinkle your building via
code?
Bowers: Mayor Corrie, City Council Members, yes, there is exclusions for that. They --
you can cut your water flow in half when you sprinkler a building. So if you needed
2,000 gallons, you could probably cut it to 1,500 or 1,000 gallons a minute, somewhere
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March 11, 2003
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around in that area. So -- but it doesn't take it out completely, though. You still have to
have water flow.
Corrie: Mr. Bird, you said something about a well? You started to say something?
Bird: Yeah, Mr. Mayor. I don't -- isn't there an existing exist well on this property?
Kartchner: There is.
Bird: Do you know what it pumps?
Kartchner: I don't. It's domestic use right now, so probably not more than 40 gallons a
minute.
Corrie: Mr. Nichols, did we have a -- is there a clause that Mr. Morrow said that we are
not responsible if they have a fire and can't do it? Okay. We might have to have the
same clause in theirs.
Nichols: Well, again, Mr. Mayor -- Mr. Mayor and Members of the Council, I think we are
looking at different issues. This is an issue just to request municipal services and we are
saying, typically, we require annexation as a condition -- an application for annexation
as a condition for providing those services. The building and occupancy permits and all
of those things are a different issue than providing the services and so I would look -- I
would separate those issues and look at this one as to does it make sense, is there a
reasonable request to extend the services. You do have water that's going to be in the
road that would be available to provide the fire flow for just about any use. If it's going to
provide sufficient fire flow for what Sanitary Services wants to do out there, it will be
sufficient fire flow for a church.
Corrie: I understand that, but -- in other words, you have to come back before he gets
any permits?
Nichols: Well, unless he has a permit from the county for a structure, but even, then,
that's still -- it's a non-agricultural use, they still have to comply with all of the
appropriate codes, still have to have the fire things, and so I don't think we are talking
about some insurmountable problem where we are going to create a situation that
presents life safety issues.
Corrie: If you're satisfied, I am. Council, any other discussion?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: So, will the agreement be drawn up and do we -- do we just get that on the
Consent Agenda? And maybe at that time when it gets put on the Consent Agenda we
can have a report from Kenny on -- just an update on fire requirements, just to give you
time to check with the county and talk with the fire department on that.
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March 11, 2003
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Kartchner: We have had one response from the county and I don't recall anything in
there about fire, but we may want to talk to --
De Weerd: And the fire department comments separately from the county, because that
is their area.
Kartchner: And I don't think we have seen anything on this yet. I'm not sure what impact
that's going to have as far as a conditional use from the county fire department, if it
needs a fire hydrant and there is not the ability to put one in. I don't know what that's
going to mean.
De Weerd: But Kenny can work with our engineering department, our public works, and
figure out the timing issues and how to get a fire hydrant out there.
Corrie: Okay, Kenny.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I believe we need to make a motion approving this before we can get it back on
any Consent Agenda or anything, so with that, if there is no more discussion, I would
move that we approve the request for the sewer service and water service when
available for Anthony Mahaty at 2075 West Franklin Road and that an application for
annexation be applied for immediately and that all conditions that have been discussed
can be found in the papers
Nary: Second.
Bird: And the attorney to draw up the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and
Decision of Order.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Roll call vote,
Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion carried. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 6: (Items Moved from Consent Agenda):
Corrie: Since no items were removed from the Consent Agenda –
Item 7: Ordinance No. : AZ 02-027
Request for zoning
boundary modification of R-40 and C-C zones on 11.76 acres for
Locust Grove Place Subdivision
proposed by Wardle and Associates –
west of North Locust Grove Road and south of East Fairview Avenue:
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March 11, 2003
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Corrie: -- we will go to Item 7. This is an ordinance, No. 03-1012. This is a request for
zoning boundary modifications of R-40 and C-C zones in 11.76 for proposed Locust
Grove Place Subdivision by Wardle and Associates, west of North Locust Grove Road
and south of East Fairview Avenue. At this time I would like to have the city clerk read
Ordinance No. 03-1012 by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance No. 03-1012. An
Ordinance finding that LC Development, Inc., the owner of certain real property
generally located on the west side of North Locust Grove Road, one quarter mile south
of the East Fairview Avenue, Meridian, to be known as Locust Grove Place Subdivision,
has made a request for zoning boundary modification in writing to the Council and that
said boundary -- that said zoning boundary modification be designated High Density
Residential District, (R-40), and Community Business District, (C-C), as defined in the
Meridian City Code, Section 11-7-2F and I, repealing all ordinances, resolutions, orders,
or parts thereof, in conflict herewith, and directing the city engineer to add said zoning
boundary modification designation to the official maps of the City of Meridian, Idaho.
Corrie: You have heard the reading Ordinance No. 03-1012 by title only. Is there
anyone from the audience that would like to have it read in its entirety? Hearing none,
Council, I will entertain a motion on the request for the ordinance.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we approve Ordinance 03-1012, request for Zoning Boundary
Modification of R-40 and C-C zones on 11.76 acres for the proposed Locust Grove
Place Subdivision by Wardle and Associates and with suspension of rules.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to approve the Locust Grove
Subdivision request for zoning. Any further discussion? Roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion for the request for zoning modification is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 8: Tabled from March 4, 2003: FP 03-010
Request for Final Plat approval
of 34 building lots and 16 other lots on 82.9 acres in C-C and C-G zones
Bonito Subdivision
for by W.H. Moore Company – southeast corner of
Eagle and Overland Roads:
Corrie: Excuse me. Item No. 8 is tabled from the March 4th, 2003, meeting. This is a
request for Final Plat approval of 34 building lots and 16 other lots on 82.9 acres in C-C
and C-G zones by Bonito Subdivision by W.H. Moore Company, Southeast corner of
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March 11, 2003
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Eagle and Overland Roads. I would like to have staff give us a quick rundown on this
request.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. As you recall last week
this applicant W.H. Moore Company was tabled due to about three or four different
conditions that staff had requested be placed on the Final Plate. There was a request
that staff get together with the applicant to work out the wording on those conditions.
We did do that last week and submitted to you a revised report that was revised March
7th, '03, and we have met with the applicant and my understanding is that Jonathan
Seal, the representative, is in agreement with those. Primarily just as -- for your benefit,
Council, we are -- we talked about the pedestrian easement along the Ridenbaugh
Canal, as well as a pedestrian easement for -- to accommodate an internal jogging path
that is going to be constructed within the project and we have looked at some timing
issues on when that would happen and some alternatives for how they would -- how the
developer would get that pathway constructed. So, unless you have questions on how
we came to that understanding or on the conditions, particularly number six and seven
on page two, then, I will just let it stand at that, that we ask for the revised staff report to
be included in any motion you make.
Corrie: Okay. Jonathan Seal? Is Jonathan here?
Seal: Jonathan Seal, representing W.H. Moore Company, 600 North Steelhead in
Boise, Idaho. I read the staff report, I'm in agreement, and I really have nothing to say,
other than to answer any questions you might have.
Corrie: Any questions of staff? Okay. Thank you.
Seal: Thank you.
Corrie: Staff recommends approval of Final Plat with the after-mentioned comments and
conditions, so, Council, I'll entertain a motion.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we approve the Final Plat approval of 34 building lots and 16
other lots on 82.9 acres in C-C and C-G zones for Bonito Subdivision by W.H. Moore
Company, southeast corner of Eagle and Overland Road and to incorporate all the
staff's findings and comments and for the attorney to draw up the Findings of Facts and
Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order.
De Weerd: What's the date of the --
Bird: Updated 3/7 --
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Hearing
none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
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March 11, 2003
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Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Thank you, Mr. Berg. Motion for request for Final Plat in the subdivision
is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 9: FP 03-011
Request for Final Plat approval of 26 building lots and 8 other
Mosher’s Farm Subdivision
lots on 5.48 acres in an R-8 zone for by
CMD, Inc. – northwest corner of North Ten Mile Road and West Pine
Avenue:
Corrie: Item No. 9 is a request for Final Plat approval of 26 building lots and seven other
lots on 5.48 acres in an R-8 zone for Moshers Farms Subdivision by CMD, Inc., the
northwest corner of North Ten Mile Road and West Pine Avenue. At this time I will
invite staff comments first.
Hawkins-Clark: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, the staff is requesting that this item
be tabled until your March 25th meeting. We have not received all of the revisions that
we requested on the Preliminary Plat. The Final Plat application did not reflect our
requested changes, so we are asking for that to be tabled to March 25th.
Corrie: Thank you, Brad. I looked on the wrong one. So, with that, Council, I will
entertain a motion to extend the time on this.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we table the request for final flat approval of 26 building lots and
eight other lots on 5.4 acres in an R-8 zone for Moshers Farms Subdivision by CMD,
Incorporated, to March 25th, 2003.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. All in favor and say aye. All ayes.
Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 10: Public Hearing: MI 03-001
Request to modify approved Final Plat lot
lines, move approved hotel and office locations, reduce hotel size to 80
Fallon Greens Subdivision
rooms and increase office building area for
(fka Hampton Inn Subdivision)
by Pinnacle Engineers, Inc. – southwest
corner of South Allen Street and Gentry Way:
Corrie: Item No. 10 is a Public Hearing. This is a request to modify approved Final Plat
lot lines, move approved hotel and office locations, reduce hotel size to 80 rooms, and
increase office building area for Fallon Greens Subdivision, fka Hampton Inn
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 14 of 43
Subdivision by Pinnacle Engineers, southwest corner of South Allen Street and Gentry
Way. At this time I will open the public meeting and invite staff comments first.
Hawkins-Clark: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, the subject parcel is approximately
four and a half acres in size. It's located here at the northwest corner of Allen and the
interstate. The Eagle Road on ramp for I-84 abuts the south property here. It is in the
Magic View Subdivision. Holiday Inn Express is immediately across to the east and the
Hubble Engineering Building to the north. This site does have an approved
preliminary/Final Plat for a three-lot subdivision. It's been annexed for a couple of years
now. Just going to slip to the next -- the slide that's on the screen now is the approved
preliminary/Final Plat that City Council recommended approval of or did approve as a
part of the annexation and zoning -- well, I guess it happened after the annexation and
zoning, but, as you can see, the lot configuration was designed to have a hotel on the
north end of the property and, then, they had two office building lots on the south end
next to Freeway Drive. I will go back to the proposed modification. They are now
proposing to shift the hotel a little bit to the south and orient it more to Allen and the
freeway and, then, have two office lots behind the hotel lot. Staff considered the
configuration a significant modification from what was approved, so we required the
applicant to submit this miscellaneous application, mainly, to get it before the Council
again, so that you could see that this change was being proposed. The second slide
here shows the Conditional Use Permit site plan. The site does also have an approved
Conditional Use Permit for a 92-room hotel. They are proposing to reduce it to 80
rooms, but they are asking to increase the square footage that is allowed on the office
lots. So that was the second modification here in this applicant. The first for the plat and,
then, the second for the Conditional Use Permit. They are showing the office buildings
as part of a phase two. Staff's understanding from Pinnacle Engineers is that this phase
is closely behind the hotel project, but it is the hotel that is largely driving this application
and which is their first priority in their phase one. The third item as a part of their
application is the development agreement. Typically, the city's development
agreements, we ask if they want to -- if an applicant wants to modify, they need to
submit a miscellaneous application to get it in writing and that request is there to,
essentially, accommodate the increased office square footage. You do have a memo
from staff, dated March 10th, and we have just included a couple of modifications there
to the preliminary and Final Plat, to the Conditional Use Permit, and to the development
agreement, that if City Council recommends approval of this, we have got some new
wording that would need to be added in there. And so we would ask that the -- if you
recommend approval, that the legal department would, then, add this new language into
the approved Findings and development agreement. Thanks.
Corrie: Any comments, questions, from Council? Okay. This is a Public Hearing. Is the
representative of this project here tonight? Is the testimony you are about to give the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Boyle: It is.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Boyle: Clint Boyle with Pinnacle Engineers, 12552 West Executive Drive in Boise,
Idaho. I appreciate the opportunity to come and speak to you this evening, Council. I try
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 15 of 43
to load up as many items as I can on a single hearing, it frees up more of my nights,
and so I do appreciate that. This request, again, is one that we have worked with the
staff on. We are in agreement with all the provisions and conditions that Brad has stated
there. And, again, the staff wanted to bring this back in front of you. We are proposing
exactly the same number of lots, three lots on the site. Commercial development. The
changes here are there are a different group of developers involved in the development
of the hotel now from what originally went through the approvals and they have modified
how they wanted the layout of the hotel on the site. With that, the lots have changed
configurations from what was originally approved and also, as Brad indicated, the hotel
has shifted. The size of the hotel has been reduced from a 92 room to an 80-room hotel.
However, they are requesting an additional amount of office space from that original
approval. When we talked to staff -- I mean it's somewhat of an offset as far as traffic
issues go. ACHD has approved this site plan. The original site plan, actually, had three
curb cuts out on the street. This one is only requesting two curb cuts. Again, ACHD has
approved those. I'll stand for any questions on the project and thank you for your time
this evening.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: It's my recollection this is still to the west of the Holiday Inn Express; isn't that
correct? And you said it's a different property owner now, than the ones that first come
for Hampton Inn?
Boyle: Correct.
Nary: Okay. One of the things I recall in the discussion we had about that was the
concerns I think that I expressed about them wanting some signage that would be
visible to Eagle Road, since it's behind this building, and they committed at the time that
they weren't going to ask for anything like that, they didn't want, you know, a 75 foot
lighted sign on top of this building, so that you could see it from Eagle Road. Do these
new developers recognize that that's part of this as well?
Boyle: Yeah. They will not have any issue with that that I'm aware of. Again, the
orientation of the building, they are hoping with the orientation to the interstate that will
give us the visibility and also to get to that Holiday Inn, everybody is going to be coming
right down the road and as you come off of Eagle, coming in and coming right down the
road and seeing the hotel as they come off.
Nary: Well, from our other discussion on the agenda tonight, they are going to be
coming over here now.
Boyle: Right.
Nary: But, anyway, I just wanted to be sure that we are not going to have that issue
come back, since there is a different property owner.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 16 of 43
Boyle: Right. I don't believe they have any problem complying with the comments that
you --
Nary: Two giant lighted signs at that is probably plenty, so --
Boyle: Like I said, they will come in in conformance with the other signage in the area,
the Texaco sign that flashes and --
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: I'm still trying to find out where that --
Boyle: No. They won't have a problem with the signage and I made that commitment
that they are not proposing a flashing 75 foot tall beacon on top of the --
Bird: You're sure now.
Boyle: I am.
Corrie: Make sure they know that.
Boyle: I will.
Corrie: All right. Any other questions?
Bird: I have none, Mayor.
Corrie: Thank you. Is there anyone else from the public that would like to issue
testimony at this time on this request? Okay. Hearing none, Council, any other
discussion on the Public Hearing?
Hawkins-Clark: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: If not, I will entertain a motion, then, to close the Public Hearing. Oh, I'm sorry.
Brad.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you. Before you close the Public Hearing, I would like, if we
could, to make a request of Mr. Boyle. The Public Works staff has just pointed out that
the plat is set to expire March 26th or 25th, I believe, the original plat that was already
approved. So, I was wondering if -- obviously, they are not going to get that modification
done before the plat expires, so we would be looking at another variance kind of issue
and maybe Mr. Nichols could replay, if we can, under this application provide any kind
of mechanism to extend the approval date of the preliminary/Final Plat.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor. Brad, are you saying it will be two years March 26th?
Hawkins-Clark: One.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 17 of 43
Nichols: It will be one year. So, they could request a time extension before the time
expires?
Hawkins-Clark: That's correct.
Nichols: So, it wouldn't be a variance, but it would be a request for time extension filed
prior to the time that it runs and, then, generally, in the past we have allowed those.
Corrie: Okay. I guess Clint -- Mr. Boyle, did you hear what we were talking about? Well,
they need to make that extension by the 25th of this month, because their one-year is
up.
Boyle: We can make the extension if that's the way the Council would need to proceed
to get the rest of these agreements in place. The Final Plat -- again, the Preliminary
Plat and Final Plat -- I guess I need some clarification from Brad. Are you talking the
actual submittal to the city for -- well -- and, actually, I'm getting to the Final Plat. For
the city to sign the Mylar plat or are you talking, actually, the recording of the plat?
Hawkins-Clark: The recording of the plat.
Boyle: Okay.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad, don't you mean that they need to request an extension of the Final Plat that
has been approved by March 26th? You just need to request an extension of that, so,
then, when it comes down on this one, we will take care of it, but you still need to get
that extension filed in here before the 25th, 26th, or whatever.
Nary: And remember how sticky we are about giving those variances.
Boyle: I sure do.
Bird: This isn't a variance, it's an extension.
Nary: An extension is great.
Bird: There is no variance.
Boyle: Extension is great in my --
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary. I don't think you want to go through whole process.
Boyle: I don't want to go through the variance process.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 18 of 43
Corrie: We don't want you to --
Boyle: No.
Bird: We don't want you to, either.
Corrie: What's the date, Brad? The 25th?
Hawkins-Clark: The 26th.
Corrie: The 26th. So, we better have it the 25th, so --
Boyle: We will try to have something into Brad tomorrow.
Corrie: Tomorrow, so we can have it next week. Thank you.
Boyle: Thank you.
Corrie: Anything else?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Anything else, staff, that you need to bring up?
Hawkins-Clark: No. Thank you.
Corrie: Okay. I will entertain a motion, then, to close the Public Hearing.
Bird: So moved.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Motion made and seconded to close the Public Hearing on Item 10. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: Discussion? Motion?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Hearing no discussion, I would move that we approve the request for the -- I don't
know if you modify it or just completely -- just approve the Final Plat as submitted.
What's the date on this one? Of this, Brad?
Hawkins-Clark: Councilman Bird, that's February 10, '03.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 19 of 43
Bird: The Final Plat as submitted on February 10th, 2003, for Fallon Greens
Subdivision, formerly known as Hampton Inn Subdivision, by Pinnacle Engineers,
southwest corner of South Allen Street and Gentry Way and for the attorney to draw up
all the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision of Order and incorporate
staff comments.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion?
Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 11: Public Hearing: MI 02-011
Request to remove certain parcels in Dunbar
Packard
Estates Subdivision from City of Meridian’s area of impact for
Estates Dev., LLC
by Packard Estates Dev., LLC – south of East Ustick
Road and west of North Cloverdale Road:
Corrie: Item No. 11 is a Public Hearing. This is a request to remove certain parcels in
Dunbar Estates Subdivision from the City of Meridian's area of impact for Packard
Estates Development, LLC, by Packard Estates Development, LLC, south of East
Ustick Road and west of North Cloverdale Road. At this time, I will open the Public
Hearing and invite staff's comments first.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. This item you have
seen once before, so I won't go into a lot of the details on the area. You have received a
recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission. It was received by the
clerk's office March 3, 2003. Essentially, the request before you is to remove the
property that is outlined on the screen from the Meridian city area of impact, release it to
the City of Boise. The area of impact is shown on the screen here in a purple line, so, as
you can see, it's at the extreme western -- or, I'm sorry, eastern boundary of the area of
impact. There is two smaller out parcels here in the corner that are not included in the
application for annexation -- I mean, I'm sorry, for area of impact boundary change. The
property has Ustick Road on the north, Cloverdale Road is approximately one quarter
mile to the east, Eagle Road, as you can see on this vicinity map, is approximately a
half mile to the west. The City Council did remand this item back to the Planning and
Zoning Commission for the main reason that it was determined after the Planning and
Zoning Commission reviewed it the first time, that some of the sewer data was not
received or not reviewed by the Planning and Zoning Commission, when it was
determined that all of this property could potentially sewer into the South Slough. The
City Council felt that was new information that the Planning and Zoning Commission
should have had and so you remanded it back. They did review it with that information
and did not change their recommendation, they are still recommending that the property
be removed from the City of Meridian area of impact and that is -- that's the
recommendation that's before you tonight. You also should have in your packets a
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 20 of 43
memo from our Fire Chief Ken Bowers. He was asked to do a little bit of looking after
the hearing in January before this body to determine fire district services and he is here
if you have questions for him on that, but, as I understand it, essentially, the three large
parcels that are shown here, the middle property is in the city of -- or, I'm sorry, the rural
fire protection district. The northern property and the southern parcel are in the north
Ada county fire and rescue district. There is, as you know, a fire station -- substation
number three being -- soon to be constructed on North Locust Grove that Chief Bowers
states is able to serve this area in a timely manner once that substation is constructed
just north of Ustick on Locust Grove Road. There are other issues with regards to city
services and, again, when we are talking about an area of impact boundary adjustment,
the State Land Use Planning Act gives a little bit of guidance -- nothing real concrete. It
talks about determining trade area. It talks about geographic issues -- geographic
boundary issues. And, then, the reasonableness of annexation. And I think in many
ways that's what we are talking about here tonight is what is the reasonableness of
annexation for this property and, therefore, what's the reasonableness of extending
services to it. The City of Boise is currently contiguous to this property. They could
annex to the City of Boise. The City of Meridian's current -- the closest annexation is
shown here in purple on the west side of Eagle Road. That's the Carol's Professional
Center. Public Works can speak more to this if they'd like, but, as you know, the South
Slough extension will bring city sewer, within the next few months, to the east side of
Eagle Road. As you can see, that would still involve somewhat of an extension of a
trunk line in order to actually flow to this property. As I understand the testimony given
by Becky McKay at the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting, the City of Boise is
not prepared to act on this until they understand that the City of Meridian is willing to
release this property. So, they are basically waiting for the City of Meridian to make
some decision on this. And, then, finally, I'll just point out that you have received also
tonight in writing in the record a letter from Attorney Gary Allen, who has written on
behalf of Mr. Allen Dirkheimer and that letter is submitted to you, dated March 11th.
Thanks. I think that's all staff has at this point.
Corrie: Any other staff comments? Questions for staff? Is the applicant here this
evening? Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
McKay: Yes, sir.
Corrie: State your name and address, please.
McKay: Becky McKay. Business address 150 East Aikens, Suite B, Eagle. I'm
representing the applicant in this matter and I was too afraid to submit any written
comments, so I'm winging it. I will keep this brief. I think we made our formal
presentation before the Council here a month or so ago. If you recall correctly, the
information that -- the preliminary sewer information that was submitted to the applicant
and myself was in error. That information was presented to the Planning and Zoning
Commission. It was felt by this Council that they made d their decision to recommend
that this parcel be removed from the impact area on that information and you remanded
us back. We did go back to the Commission, I laid the facts out on the table for the
Commission, they discussed it in length concerning the possibility of annexation
pathway to this property, the proximity of Boise City sewer, and the ability of Boise City
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 21 of 43
to provide sewer and to gravity to their existing sewer, the availability of United Water in
this area. The Council asked me to -- and the staff to do some research and find out as
far as -- more information on the services. I did talk with John Lee at United Water. He
said in this Cloverdale-Ustick corridor that they have probably one of their best service
areas as far as being able to provide adequate 1,500 GPM to meet fire department
requirements. There was absolutely no problem. Boise City gave us a conceptual
analysis for the sewer, indicating that this could gravity to Boise City. You have received
a memo from Chief Bowers indicating that at this time the closest station is over at Ten
Mile just south of Ustick. However, there is -- Fire Station No. 3 will be built and will be
approximately two and a half miles from this property. Currently, Boise City has a fire
station located at the intersection -- it would be the north -- or the -- excuse me -- the
southwest corner of McMillan and Cloverdale Road. So, this is McMillan. This is
Cloverdale. Boise City's fire station is located on this south -- excuse me -- southeast
corner. This is your Ten Mile station just between Ustick and Cherry Lane. The subject
property from Boise City station is approximately about one and a quarter to one and a
half miles, depending on which route you take. Just to refresh your memory, there is
approximately 72 acres. The property -- 20 acres, in addition to the 72, lies in Boise
City's area of impact and fronts out on Cloverdale Road. The applicant is requesting
removal from the impact area. He asks that the Council take into consideration the
availability of services that are there at this time. The difficulty in extending the services
from the Eagle Road. Easements would have to be acquired through unrelated
properties to get to this parcel. A pathway of annexation would have to be found in order
to get to this parcel, since it is on the eastern fringe of your impact boundary. His
engineer's estimated cost for extension of that sewer along the South Slough -- which
the South Slough would gravity sewer all of this property -- was estimated around 250 to
300 thousand. And that's just -- that's just a rough figure. Water would be extended in
Ustick Road. You currently have a 12-inch line out there in front of Summer's Funeral
Home and, then, water would have to, obviously, be extended to this parcel to and
through. A question that was brought up at the Planning and Zoning Commission was
the ability to loop the water, if this property were to be developed, if the sewer was
extended and an annexation pathway was found, how would this be looped back into
the system. If there were an inability to loop it at the time of development, then, would
there be adequate capacity in that dead end system to service the property. I don't
think Mr. Freckleton gave a clear answer, but maybe the Public Works staff that's here
this evening could. I think you have the facts. This is a tough one and all we can do is
lay those facts out on the table and let you guys make a decision. As Mr. Hawkins-Clark
indicated, the City of Boise has made it quite clear that they have absolutely no interest
in this, unless the City of Meridian is willing to give it up. If so, they would gladly service
the property and incorporate it, since we do abut the city limits along our north boundary
at Heather Meadows and, then, along our eastern boundary next to Dawson Meadows.
But if the city is opposed to that, then, they have no interest at all. It's a tough question.
Like I said before, this is a single-family residential development type parcel. It's not
commercial. One other issue that was weighed at the Planning and Zoning Commission
was the tax revenues generated by this type of development when you compare what it
costs the city to provide services to the parcel. The Planning and Zoning Commission in
their discussions decided that the information that they have received in the past, that
they barely break even, depending on, obviously, the value of the homes and the
density and so forth. And so they didn't see that this particular piece of property had
benefit to the city as far as financial benefits. Do you have any questions?
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 22 of 43
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Ms. McKay, did you see Mr. Allen's letter?
McKay: Yes, sir.
Nary: Okay. And he raised a question about your client, essentially, buying a hardship
by buying property across both the -- across the boundary lines. One of the issues here
is that -- doesn't your client own this property over here somewhere?
McKay: Yes, sir. That parcel right there.
Nary: And that was part of the rationale for asking to move into Boise is that they own
these portions over here.
McKay: Correct. That was one -- that was owned by one property owner previously.
Yes, sir.
Nary: Now, what Mr. Allen raises in his letter -- and I guess I just want your thoughts --
is that, essentially, this hardship of having property across the boundary line issue is,
essentially, created by your client by purchasing them both, knowing that these were not
-- these parcels were already separated by this line. This is not splitting a parcel, these
were already parcels that were split; is that not correct?
McKay: I don't believe that's correct. It was owned by one property owner.
Nary: Okay.
McKay: There are, I believe, three parcels. Mr. Groves could probably address -- Mr.
Groves would probably be best to address that. But my understanding from the property
owner -- and she's testified, I think, here at the Council once and Planning and Zoning
Commission, their property fronts on Cloverdale and, then, extends up to the west
across that impact boundary and so the impact boundary did, indeed, split their
property. But to answer your question, obviously, when Mr. Groves was looking at this
parcel, he was aware that that impact boundary was there. I mean it's on every map, so
I cannot dispute the fact that that boundary is known. Yes. But it does -- like I said
before, the impact boundary does not reflect ownership, it just goes at that quarter mile,
boom, that's the way it is.
Nary: Thank you.
Corrie: Becky, I have a question. You said all of the land west of that purple line is
sewered by gravity.
McKay: To the South Slough.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 23 of 43
Corrie: And as it goes towards Boise they'd have to use a pump stations? Lift stations?
McKay: No, sir.
Corrie: How would they gravity?
McKay: They gravity -- there is a trunk line out in Ustick Road, an existing Boise City
trunk line, that services Heather Meadows to the north. So, if Brad just extends that
arrow westward -- just a little bit more. That's Heather Meadows right over there. So,
Boise City's extended a trunk line or the developer of Heather Meadows has extended a
trunk line in Ustick Road. There is also a trunk -- there is also a sewer main, an eight-
inch sewer main, in Autumn Leaf, which is the subdivision to the south. Right there.
There is a stub street there. This property would go gravity north, gravity south. There is
a lift station in that cul-de-sac of -- right there. Of Autumn Leaf. And that is a lift station
that was installed by the Autumn Leaf developer that has capacity and that's what
Dawson Meadows already has it's -- it sewers through this property. So, a Boise City
sewer line has already been built through those 20 acres. So, if you extend -- I'll show
you here. Here is that stub street here and you can see a Boise City sewer main has
already extended through these 28 acres in gray that's within their impact area, to
service Dawson Meadows. This part -- all this property will gravity sewer into that stub
street and go into this lift station here and lifts back. This property sewers to the south,
all of this sewers up to Ustick Road. Boise City's public works has analyzed it. So, for
this particular property if the question is would a lift station be required, the answer is
no.
Corrie: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else that
would like to testify for this project? Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Groves: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Groves: My name is Craig Groves. Address 3920 East Shady Glen Court in Ada
County. Mayor, Members of the Council, obviously, your decision tonight is really a
political decision. I'd like to address your question on the parcels here. First of all, we
have an option agreement to purchase the property fronting Cloverdale Road -- fronting
Clover -- down there. From there all the way over to the black line on the west. Okay.
Then, go completely north passed the street to there. Okay. It's roughly 55 acres. Okay.
The ground originally, dating back into the early '90s, was owned by one family. When
mother and father passed away, brother and sister split the property along Granger
Road there. The owners of the property desire to, you know, start their retirement plans
and would like to sell the property to one developer. Obviously, we want to develop the
property in all -- as fast as we possibly can. We have some serious concerns about the
City of Meridian's ability to provide services to this property. In the early '90s there was
an application requesting the same thing. I think it was in '91, '92, maybe. At that point,
the property could have worked into the City of Boise. Meridian said, no, we will do it.
Okay. So, you know, it's been over ten years and we'd like to -- we'd like to develop the
property and we have a concern as to how we are going to -- how we are going to
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 24 of 43
annex it. Okay. And if we could get the easements to extend the sewer to the property
at considerable expense, would this Council allow us to do that without an annexation
path or would this Council do forced annexation. Those are some of the issues I'd like
you to weigh. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Any questions? Anyone else to issue testimony in favor? Okay.
Testimony against. Gary Allen.
Allen: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council -- oh, I'm sorry.
Corrie: Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Allen: Yes, it is.
Corrie: Thank you.
Allen: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. My name is Gary Allen. My
address is 277 North 6th Street in Boise. I'm here representing Allen Dirkheimer, who is
a property owner who owns the two parcels of property that are down to the south and
west, just beyond that little jog right there and the little parcel above it. Our letter omits
that second parcel, but the important thing is that this parcel does adjoin the parcel
that's seeking to be removed tonight and that will be important later on when we talk
about that. Mr. Dirkheimer opposes the removal of this property from the area of impact.
The removal of a property from the area of impact shouldn't be done lightly. It disrupts
other property owners and the area of impact needs to be a stable, long-term planning
tool for the city. We have presented a letter expressing our concerns and I'd like to give
you a couple highlights. As the staff mentioned, the criteria for setting the area of impact
and changing it are the trade area, the geography, and the reasonableness of
annexation. The trade area here clearly points towards keeping this property in
Meridian, but most of the trade would be done over on -- off of Eagle Road and I think
that the biggest draw from a regional standpoint would be the Meridian Crossroad
Center, as the staff has pointed out. As far as geography goes, your area of impact line
follows a logical line parallel to Cloverdale Road. There is no other particular geography
that differentiates this from other property along Cloverdale. And as far as the cross
boundary issue goes, I'm -- I started working on this project on Friday, so forgive me if
there is some of the details that have escaped me, but even if there are some of the
parcels that have -- that cross the boundary between Boise and Meridian, there still is
an assemblage here -- and they are trying to draw everything into -- you know, into this,
even though at least some of these parcels have been in -- within the Meridian area
entirely. Now, look at the reasonableness of annexation. I think this is really at the heart
of it. From Meridian, the services that would serve this parcel are close by or already
available. The sewer is digging its way across Eagle Road, as we speak at some
considerable expense to the city, no doubt. The water is already there at some level.
And fire and police protection are already available. The applicant has spoken in terms
of, you know, if it remained in Meridian how do we get easements and find a pathway of
annexation. I'll say right here that my client is willing to provide both across his parcel at
this point. So, that shortens the distance considerably to get this parcel connected up
with the City of Meridian. Now, also the area of impact boundary is not that far away,
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particularly on the south. My understanding is it's right across Eagle Road on this --
towards the south end of this property -- or even the south end of this property. What is
important here, I think, is that what you're doing tonight is you're going to weigh a short-
term benefit to this developer versus what's the impact on other property owners in the
city? Now, if you read the Planning and Zoning transcript, it appeared clear that there
would be stranded investment from the South Slough if this property were allowed to
leave Meridian. That is, you wouldn't be able to recover all of the costs of the South
Slough, because part of that was expected to be this parcel. The same issue occurs
with individual property owners. My client, for example, if he wants to develop his
property in Meridian, he now has to bear a larger cost to bring that sewer line over to his
property, which would have anticipated that that would have been shared among a
larger -- a larger group there. So, we see some very significant problems in letting
somebody out, especially on a piecemeal basis. There are a couple little remnant
parcels. It's pretty unclear what happens to them if this piece gets cut out. And so it
simply disrupts your investment, it disrupts other property owner's expectation, it simply,
to me, does not seem like a close call in terms of weighing the equities in this matter.
Now, as we mentioned in our letter, if we -- if my client -- or if this applicant is allowed to
leave, we are going to want to leave, too, and there may be other properties that want to
leave Meridian, because this becomes a very difficult area to develop. So, we think the
best answer is leave everybody in, let's find a way to find those pathways and we don't
think that's an insurmountable issue, but if you are inclined to let this property go, don't
do it piecemeal, defer this application and, then, decide where you want to draw the line
and where it makes sense to draw the line and, then, go negotiate that with Boise and
Ada county. Failing that, if you approve this, we will be here asking to be removed and
to be able to take advance of what they are going to be able to do with Boise. We don't
think that's the best way, but we think that's the way we are going to be forced to go in
the event that you let this property go. I just want to make a point about whether -- it
seems pretty unclear to me, having just reviewed the record, whether the services have
been provided in ten years or not. As it appeared from the Planning and Zoning record,
that the clock started in 1997 and I'm not exactly sure how that worked, but the
applicant is now saying that it started in -- may have started as early as 1990 or '91. I
haven't reviewed the record in that kind of detail to know that. But we can all say that it's
close now and that it's not going to be long before it's going to be possible to service
this property. So, with that I would stand for any questions.
Corrie: Thank you, Mr. Allen. Questions?
Bird: I have none.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Allen, I guess I have got a couple of questions. I have a hard time following
what you're saying about your property -- your client's property here, if this piece were
to become part of Boise, that it would, then, be more economically viable for your client
to pay to bring a sewer line from this side of Cloverdale to there versus this side of
Eagle Road to here. I guess I'm not sure -- and the other question I have is just looking
at parcels -- and one of the issues we have had presented to us a number of times is
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March 11, 2003
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that that impact boundary line wasn't drawn in relation to any parcels at all. It was just
drawn on the map and in just looking at this parcel map, I mean it appears that this
seems like a parcel line right here and so it seems like there is a more natural boundary
that already exists, it just happens to be your client that is on the edge of it, but that
exists here. So, tell me why this wouldn't be a more natural boundary if we were to look
at that one time -- only doing it once and, then, negotiating with Boise City, but why
wouldn't this simply be the better boundary line, then, if that's the case?
Allen: Well, I think it's -- number one, is if -- to answer your first question with regard to
the sewer. I mean the sewer is going to come all the way through that parcel, so it
should be immediately adjacent to us relatively soon, if this is allowed to go into Boise.
So, it's going to be immediately adjacent, as opposed to across Eagle Road.
Nary: You're talking about the sewer over here?
Allen: Right.
Nary: Okay.
Allen: Right. As far as the natural boundary line, I would say that, you know, what they
have done is they have attempted to create a new natural boundary line there. You
know, that boundary line that you pointed to is -- you know, doesn't exist, unless they
are allowed -- unless they do what they want to do. I mean the boundary for the
northern parcel is, in fact, over at your -- at your line, as I understand it. So, see, there
are three different parcels.
Nary: I understand. But this particular -- I mean -- and maybe I'm just reading this
wrong. This appears to be a parcel right here; correct? So, the parcel -- so, the western
boundary of this parcel is right there. This one is right there. This piece, which isn't
being asked to move right now, is right there. This subdivision, which, from the way I'm
reading this map, is not in the city; right? This is in the county. So, this is all boundary
line for this subdivision, it ends right here on this half mile line. This is a half-mile right
between Eagle and Cloverdale and this is the parcel that has the turf farm and PAL
Soccer on it, so --
Allen: Yeah. Well, I mean --
Nary: So, I mean the boundaries -- it appears that these boundaries along the half-mile
seem to match up. So, I guess --
Allen: Well, with the exception of that little -- I mean who knows what that parcel --
Nary: Except for this piece right here.
Allen: Yeah. Exactly.
Nary: The boundary for that parcel is right there. That's -- this is the parcel; right?
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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Allen: Yeah. But that's not unusual for the half mile line to define the edge of parcels,
but you have chosen the quarter mile line.
Nary: I understand that.
Allen: That's where you put your boundary.
Nary: I understand that. But your argument was that that boundary made sense. We
have had lots and lots of people say it doesn't make any sense. So, I was just curious
as to your position as to why this half-mile doesn't make more sense. It does follow the
boundary line all the way down.
Allen: I think it makes as much sense to put it on the quarter line as the half mile line,
particularly because you have made the investment to bring the sewer line over there.
So, I think you ought to stick with what you have. That's what everybody's been
counting on. Now, you know, to some extent the half-mile line is a natural boundary,
but, well, hey, why don't we draw it at the three-quarter mile line? At least for this top
part. I mean you're right at the edge of your area of impact. You could cut it down at the
three quarter mile line and across just as well. Why not do that?
Nary: Well, three quarters from here is right there. But three quarters from here is --
Allen: Well, one-quarter mile -- now, I'm talking about just cutting the corner off. I mean
that would be one way to do it.
Nary: You cut from Eagle -- or, I'm sorry, one quarter over from Eagle. Right there.
Straight down and, then, across over to -- no, you don't -- draw it there, just cut straight
across over to whatever that is. Is that Leslie or -- yeah. That seems just as natural to
me, especially when you look at the way you have done this around here. But I still think
the best answer is leave it like it is. That's what everybody's been counting on.
Corrie: Thank you, Mr. Allen. Any other questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: F.A. Belcher. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Belcher: Yes.
Corrie: Thank you. Name and address, please.
Belcher: My name is Fitzroy Belcher. I resided at 2920 Duane Drive, which is just west
of the area we are talking about, in one of the two and a half acre parcels. My concern
is that if this is allowed to go to Boise, that puts us up against Boise and without the
sewer coming south of us and the water coming around and going to serve that, when
are we ever going to get water and sewer? Are we just going to remain an isolated
chunk of the county inside of Boise? There is some question raised at Planning and
Zoning that they did not want to bring sewer from Boise -- from Meridian down Ustick
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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Road, because it would parallel the existing one for Heather Meadows and the South
Slough was the sewer line of choice. Now, I understood from Planning and Zoning, from
staff that they intended to bring the sewer across Eagle Road on the north end also to
service that portion sometime in the future. My concern is that where does that leave
us? Our area of recharge for shallow wells in this area is the area that is going to be
developed. When are we going to get water? Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Belcher?
Corrie: Mr. Belcher, could you come up here one more time? Could you come up one
more time? I'm sorry.
Nary: All I wondered, Mr. Belcher, is just where is your property located? Is it in this
middle section here?
Belcher: Yes, it is.
Nary: And it's approximately where?
Belcher: On the east side of Duane Drive, go up -- oh, come down. One more. Down.
That parcel right there.
Nary: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Virginia Belcher. All right. Is it Steven -- is it Richardson? I don't have
anything for or against here. And Clinton Richardson.
Richardson: We were on the list. I thought you just had to sign in.
Corrie: Okay. It's quite all right. You're welcome. Is there anyone else that would like to
testify at this time? Okay. Becky, did you have any answers? There seemed to be a lot
of questions, but -- do you have anything?
McKay: I just have a couple of comments. I don't know if I have answers to all these
questions, but I can comment. Mr. Allen's brought up the issue of self-interest as far as
the property owners are concerned. Obviously, development of the property would
benefit the potential buyers of the subject property. However, by leaving it in the City of
Meridian and forcing an easement to be acquired across Mr. Dirkheimer's property or
another developer extending services through Mr. Dirkheimer's property, would,
obviously, benefit Mr. Dirkheimer. So, self interest does run both ways. They talked
about if this parcel was released from this impact area, that they want to come in right
behind them and I know that's always been one concern of the Council if we -- if we
allow one, then, who will be next. But the issue has to be serviceability. In Boise City's
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March 11, 2003
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analysis, based on the information that I received from John Johnson, one of the city
engineers, the sewer along this western boundary of us is at 4.05 feet and 3.85, so we
are at the minimum as far as getting our cover and the extension of the Boise City
sewer any further west, according to Mr. Johnson in conversation in the meeting I had
with him, would be impossible. They couldn't gravity sewer anything further west. We
are here at their limitation at the subject property's western boundary. So, that is always
a concern that the cities take into effect. Boise City doesn't like lift stations any better
than the City of Meridian, as far as the cost to the city and the taxpayers, for the
maintenance, and, then, the long-term issues of those lift stations. Concerning the
question about the impact boundary and the establishment of that, I was at Ada county
when that impact boundary was done and I started in Ada county in 1990 and in 1992
and '91 that impact boundary discussion with Boise City and Meridian and that dispute
was taking place, so this boundary is not something that was established in 1997. Mr.
Belcher, as far as service down Duane Drive, even if this subject property were
developed within the City of Meridian, we wouldn't be extending services down Duane
Drive. You use see, you know, extension of water in Ustick, which would put it a little
closer to Duane Drive, run across their frontage, but they would have to extend it or the
city would have to pay to extend it down Duane. There are no stub streets out of Duane
Drive going to the east, so we have no ability to take water into their property and, then,
take it into the subject property, if you follow me. Do you follow me? You're kind of
squinting.
Corrie: I follow you, but I think your statement is wrong, and I will ask you why.
McKay: Okay. They bring it across their frontage, but not south on Duane Drive, unless
Mr. Dirkheimer's property were to develop and, then, the city, Public Works, found that
to be the appropriate route for extension of water. That may be a possibility. I think we
have laid the facts on the table and it's a political decision and it's up to the Council.
This is not easy and I think we just have to look at it from a practical perspective and
weigh the facts. Thank you.
Corrie: Let me make a comment, Becky. I believe I was Mayor whenever the area of
impact was finalized and that had to be 1996. In 1990 I know they were talking about it,
because when I was on the Council in '92 they were still talking about it and we finally
made the agreement with the county commissioners that -- and Boise agreed to this
and Meridian agreed to it and the county commissioners agreed to it, what could be
sewered by gravitational would be where the lines are and when that line was drawn
down that part of it there, that was part of it and they agreed to that. So, that's my only
contention is that this was not in 1990, this had to be in '96 or '97. We aren't ten years
after that.
McKay: Mr. Mayor, when did the discussions start? They started back in '91, '92,
because there were --
Corrie: I'm sure they did, but they didn't do anything until '97.
McKay: There were -- correct.
Corrie: So, they had ten years --
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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McKay: The adoption by Ada county of your Comprehensive Plan, you're correct, was
delayed considerably, but the discussions and disputes and the line going to be drawn
at this point started back like in -- I remember early meetings in '91 and '92 there was
still many discussions going on. And you're absolutely correct that they were trying to
draw that line where each jurisdiction could feasibly sewer and where each jurisdiction
didn't have to double up their services in a public street and that's why that quarter mile
was picked, because Boise City said we didn't want -- if we picked Cloverdale, we had
Meridian sewer and Boise sewer and Meridian water and United Water all in Cloverdale
and that was one -- one concern that they had. But, nonetheless, even through those
aerial photos we still find that there -- some of that data was not completely accurate
when we do the ground topos, because those aerial topos, that was determined from --
we find are between two and five feet off, depending on which aerial photo and what
particular area. We can't use them for design. They are not that accurate.
Corrie: Well, I --
McKay: So I understand and you are correct,
Corrie I did an awful lot of sweating blood in this thing on the area of impact.
McKay: You did, sir.
Corrie: And I'm not inclined to give anything away and much less this much and I think
personally -- after this is over I will give my opinion. Thank you.
McKay: Yes, sir. It was a long, drawn-out process, you're absolutely right.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I think to set things straight, this area of impact was set up in the late '80s and
Meridian went to Cloverdale and Chinden and down and, then, we -- and, then, we had
some political ball game going on and we lost all the area around Centennial and --
because our school district went out there and built a school out there with no sewer,
the whole thing, and Boise had no problems putting in a bunch of lifts. So, the Mayor is
a hundred percent right, this agreement we are under right now -- and this isn't the
original impact area, this was started in about '96, '97, and it was agreed upon in '97,
the area of impact. The original Meridian's area of impact was Cloverdale to Chinden,
down Chinden all the way and through our school district and some political stuff in the
'80s -- the early '80s, we lost it all. So -- and I'm like the Mayor, I'm not giving anything
up that I don't have to.
Corrie: And we may go through some court battles.
McKay: Yes, sir. I remember that. It was not a fun time for either jurisdiction.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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McKay: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Okay. Council, any other discussion at
the Public Hearing?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: There was some discussion about the water service and I heard someone use the
term looping the water around or something and I wonder if Brad could -- because I'm
just not clear what that -- if someone could help me with that.
Watson: Sure. Council Member Nary, Mayor, and Council Members, you directed us
when this was last before you to do some water modeling, because the question came
up and we gave you a blank stare and said I don't know. So, we have done some water
modeling. What it shows is that if we run that line on Ustick Road into this subdivision,
that -- and loop it around the south to Eagle Road, we have a fire flow of around 2,150
GPM. If we don't have loop on the south, it's almost 1,900.
Nary: Bring it this way?
Watson: Right. That's the ideal situation is to loop it around there. But even if we don't,
then, the hydraulic model indicates we are well over the minimum fire flow.
Corrie: Any other discussion? Thank you. Hearing none, I will entertain a motion to
close the Public Hearing.
De Weerd: So moved.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion made and seconded to close the Public Hearing. All in favor say aye.
Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: Discussion?
Nary: Go ahead.
Corrie: I mean hearing no discussion, I will --
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I think I have probably pretty much said what I strongly believe during the
last Public Hearing. When the area of impact agreement was renegotiated and, yes,
Meridian lost some significant land in that agreement, our staff really started doing some
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March 11, 2003
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modeling and a lot of planning on how to get services to those areas and I just think it's
not good planning and there is always going to be these situations and we have to deal
with them on an individual basis, but it doesn't make sense. I think since I have been on
Council we have been working aggressively trying to get the South Slough across Eagle
and it's finally done -- if this would have happened three or four years ago, I could see a
better argument, but we finally got there and so it just -- it's almost self defeating. So, I
do not support losing this area and the piece of property up in the northeast corner -- I
know he doesn't have an interest in going into Boise and, essentially, he wouldn't have
any other choice and I just feel that we drew the lines, we have a commitment and the
staff has been working very diligently to meet that commitment. We are almost there.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: This one I think it's been said by everybody is very difficult. I think Mr. Groves and
the property owners there have brought this forward to us more than once. I mean we --
he brought it during the discussion of the Comprehensive Plan, they brought it forward
on this application, they have taken it back to P&Z twice. There are a lot of reasons -- I
mean what they say makes a lot of sense as to why it could be developed easier in
Boise at this time. But that's not what our ordinance requires. Our ordinance doesn't
require that we find that it's easier and we had a discussion earlier tonight about an area
south of the freeway that doesn't fit into our -- it is in our area of impact, it isn't quite on
the same level of development as this area is, and we discussed removing it from our
impact area. In fact, I think we all kind of said that. So, we, obviously, don't just lightly
look at these things and we really do like to consider them pretty strongly and felt in that
area we may have a reason to. But in this one I would agree with Council Member de
Weerd, I just don't see that I could make these findings that our ordinance talks about in
regards to what belongs in an impact area. You know, we look at those three things as
in the staff report. Talking a trade area. Well, obviously, there is tremendous amount of
development in Boise to the east, but this Crossroads area is developing continuously
and this area here eventually will, because it's just too large not to, and this Eagle and
Ustick area is all now I think within the City of Meridian and where it's three or four at the
time, the geographic is probably fairly neutral, as is stated in here, and the
reasonableness of annexation, again, I think there are paths here. It is not as easy, I
would agree, it is not as easy as what exists in Boise, but I would agree also with
Councilman Bird that there is a reason we have these lines and it may seem very unfair
to folks and to folks that would like to sell right now, but that line has been there for
years, so it isn't that that it's a secret, I mean it's always been known that this was in
Meridian and I can't -- I just can't, in good conscious, make the findings that we would
need to find to move it. It is easier, but easier isn't the answer, and I just don't see that.
Corrie: Any other comments? Okay. I'll entertain a motion, then, for the request.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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De Weerd: I move we deny the request to remove certain parcels in Dunbar Estates
Subdivision from the City of Meridian's area of impact for Packard Estates
Development, LLC, and ask the attorney to draw up Findings of Facts and Conclusions
of Law and Decision and Order.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to request motion to deny. Any further
discussion? Hearing none, Mr. Berg, roll call vote.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion to deny is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 12: Discussion of South Eagle road Improvements at St. Luke’s (East
Magic View) Widening and Center Median:
Corrie: We will now go into the -- back to the pre-Council meeting agenda. Item 5 is
discussion of South Eagle Road Improvements at St. Luke's East Magic View, Widening
and Center Median. At this time, Gary, are you prepared to do a report?
Smith: Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Council Members. The memo in your packet that I
submitted to you on March the 6th concerns a -- I guess an analysis or some
information presented to you as a result of a phone call I received from a designer at
ITD concerning the development of plans for widening of the east side of Eagle Road
from the I-84 westbound off ramp to Franklin Road. Part of this widening project, which
was presented to you at a workshop in August of -- the end of August of 2001, part of
this widening project also concerns the installation of a raised median in the center of
Eagle Road from approximately the intersection of the westbound I-84 off ramp to a
point just north of Magic View Drive. The question that was posed to me by the designer
at ITD was what is Meridian's position in the construction of this median -- of this raised
median. The project appeared before you at a time long enough ago that I responded to
her I wasn't sure and I needed to bring it back to you. I did talk to Mayor Corrie a little bit
about it and she is developing a concept plan for this project and this concept plan
development will provide a document for their field crew to use in the field for surveying
purposes and obtaining information on existing facilities that are there. The
consequence of constructing a raised median I have stated in -- at the top of page two
of my memo. It would be very similar to the situation -- well, not -- somewhat similar to
the situation that existed at -- on Kuna-Meridian Road between Overland and the
eastbound off ramp of I-84 were a raised median was constructed to prevent left turn
traffic exiting the access for JB's and the Texaco station for northbound on Kuna-
Meridian Road. Numerous numerous traffic accidents at that location and that was
justification for construction of that raised median. Police Chief Worley echoed some
serious concerns about the safety of the traveling public on Eagle Road, not only the
northbound traffic trying to make a left turn into Magic View, but also Magic View traffic
-- eastbound Magic View traffic attempting to make a left turn onto Eagle Road. So, the
action requested is for Mayor and Council decision on the proposed construction of a
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March 11, 2003
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raised center median in Eagle Road from the signalized intersection at I-84 westbound
off-on ramp to a point slightly north of the intersection of Magic View Drive and Eagle
Road and that decision is requested to include authorization for issuance of a letter from
the Mayor's office to ITD so stating the decision. Can I answer any questions that you
might have concerning that proposal?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I don't have a real problem with it at all. I just want to know where are all these
people going to go complain? To the Highway District? Because I have a feeling they
are going to have a concern about it. But I understand the safety and all of that. I think it
makes sense. But all of these people built this business to attract this traffic, so --
Smith: Yes. Yes. That's right, Councilman Nary.
Nary: This is the Highway District or ITD's project, they are just asking if we are in
support of it.
Smith: That's correct. Yes, sir.
De Weerd: We will give them our liaison.
Nary: But I can't think of any other reason to be opposed to it. I have tried to get out
here and make a right and people -- even when it has a no left turn sign I think right
here, people still try to turn left and the stop traffic and the stop light is probably the best
place to safely do that. So, I think it's -- I think it makes perfect sense. I just know that
most of these people will have some concerns about access to the business, but --
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I agree with Councilman Nary, but also I think, you know, you can still use Magic
View for right in, right out.
Smith: Yes.
Bird: Which is what it should be anyway now and it's supposed to be, but it's being -- it's
being not used that way. The last couple of months I have had occasion to go to St.
Luke's quite often out there and so I'm getting to know it, so -- but I -- the light being put
in I think was the best thing that ever happened around there and down there and I'm all
in favor of it. I think the Mayor ought to get a letter sent out saying that we support it
wholeheartedly.
De Weerd: Is that a motion?
Bird: I would make that a motion if that's what you need.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
Page 35 of 43
De Weerd: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Further discussion? I would like for
the record to say I, too, am very much in favor of this, because not more than about two
weeks ago you almost had a new mayor sitting here, because I almost got clobbered. I
mean if it wasn't for that guy's air brakes, I would have been in the happy land. So, I will
be happy to write the letter and I have got it already templated on desk in the morning.
So, are there any further discussions? Kenny.
Bowers: Mayor and Council -- is it on? Okay. Mayor Corrie, correct, they would probably
put a median right down the middle there. The only problem we would have is when we
develop or construct this fire station down here, we will probably have to go all the way
up and to the light and come back, but it is safer to go through a light, than trying to turn
into right here. That's correct. My biggest concern would be if there is an auto accident
right here, how do we get to it? We will have to go against traffic or come up here and
make a turn in this intersection and go back -- that's the only concern we would have.
But putting a divider there is going to be a lot safer. It is.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: I was going to say Chief Bowers, I have across the ambulance going the wrong
way on the wrong side of the road and everybody stops and moves out of the way and
-- if you see a fire truck coming at you, you're going to move, so that's the only --
Bowers: That would be the only concern I would have.
Bird: I don't have any problems with our fire trucks and stuff doing that.
Corrie: My first thought sitting on the EMS board of directors, I was going to have
something to say, but, then, he couldn't get down the other side of the street at all.
Bowers: That's true.
Corrie: Transportation is one of the big issues in Meridian now. Any further discussion?
Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried. I will get
the letter out tomorrow.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 13: Discussion of Blakeslee& Associates Letter:
Corrie: Okay. Let's see. Discussion on the Blakeslee & Associates letter. I believe you
all have that -- a copy of that letter; is that correct? Okay. Discussion?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
Meridian City Council
March 11, 2003
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De Weerd: I just thought it was an item that we committed to last year and that I know
staff is still working at setting some processes in place to respond to the feedback that
they did get, but it would be nice to initiate a more formal process to get updated on
specific items and I know she interviewed over close to 110 customers that -- I think at
some point it would be important to even touch base with them and let them know what
our staff has been doing in response to this.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would agree and this is part of the whole process that we had brought her in to do
and these follow-ups are very important. In fact, I believe she's still doing follow-ups on
Boise's on a yearly basis -- outside the contract to make sure that they are staying on
their schedule and that. And I'm like Councilwoman de Weerd, I think this is something
that we need to follow up with or we have only done -- we have only done part of our --
what we wanted done out of this survey and we definitely need to follow up. Now,
whether we need it on an interim basis is something we need to decide, but I would like
to see one good follow up from the outside people, plus the staff. And I think the staff
would, too.
Smith: Well, Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Smith.
Smith: If I can make a couple comments, since we got beat up kind of on this. I don't
know whether the Council knows what we have been doing and I would -- what I would
suggest, what I'd like to do is to prepare a short report to you and let you know what we
are doing, what we have done, what we have anticipate to continue to do, short of going
back out to get public comment again, I'd like for you to see what has been happening
and, then, maybe make a -- make another -- or set another time for -- to reconsider this
recontact. And I don't disagree that it's -- that it's -- I'm not disagreeing that it's -- I got
two double negatives -- I got a double negative here, but --
Nary: So you do agree.
Smith: A double negative is a positive, isn't it? I do agree that we need to continue to
make contact, but it hasn't been that long since we had the results. I think that the
sparks flew in September and -- or late August. But, anyway, those are my thoughts that
-- and, believe me, we have been working on the points that were raised and I would
like to give you something in a formal manner that outlines what we have done.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: And, Gary, I believe that's what I'm asking for is more follow-up, so we know
what is being done, and I think it's important that you communicate to them that you're
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March 11, 2003
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responding to those issues and, you know, I guess not being so directly involved, I didn't
think -- I thought a lot of positives came from that survey and --
Smith: Well, there were, yes.
De Weerd: And it did give a tool to maybe even address the perception and it's just
another communication tool. So, I think it's a very positive exercise, because I do think
you have been doing a lot of very positive things and it's important that the community
knows what those are.
Smith: Councilman -- Mayor and Council, I think they do know what we have been
doing. I don't think that you have been receiving negative comments -- and just as a
point, I personally took copies of our standard specifications, both hard copies and disk,
and visited each one of the engineers and architects that commented to us in the
survey. Many of them were surprised to see my shiny face and I thought that was good.
I was well received. Nobody threw any stones at me when I entered. Some of them still
had some concerns and we talked about them. But I did make that personal visit and I
wanted to do that and I don't think there was more than probably a dozen that I made
out of the references that I had provided to Dawneen for contact. So, it wasn't that big
of a deal. But that's just one thing that we did do and I think it was -- it had a positive
impact.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Gary -- and I agree with you a hundred percent, I'd like to see you follow up with a
deal, but I also would like to see Dawneen go out and ask some questions, too, of staff
stuff and to the outside, because you guys weren't the only ones. We -- you know, we
weren't exempt. Council and Mayor was not exempt. So, you know, we have got to
make sure we are doing it a little better on our part, too. And there were other
departments. I have seen a tremendous change in all departments. I have seen a
tremendous change and I think it's great. But we need this one follow up, I firmly
believe.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess the -- I would concur with what's been said, Gary. I think there has been a
tremendous positive that we have seen over the last six months and I think we have all
heard those positive things, but we pay -- you know, we pay the consultants for a pie
and this is the last piece of that pie. It's a follow-up to make sure that all those
processes that were suggested and those that we like and those that we don't like, we
have that conversation and, then, we move forward. What I'm afraid is that if we don't,
then, the perception will still be by some people that we hired a person, we got some
information, and some things happened, some of it good, some of it maybe we don't
know and, then, we just sort of let it lay and just let it sort of die, instead of saying let's
complete it. You know, we started -- we didn't anticipate the last time we talked to Mrs.
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March 11, 2003
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Blakeslee in October or whatever it, was that we were done. We anticipated there would
be more. I think that we -- you know, we have a half an hour work session, try to, you
know, do a 5:30 thing just on this topic, maybe even 45 minutes. Do this in open
session. You discuss that with her prior to that. Brad talk with her prior to that. What
have you done? Get her input. You know, we paid for expertise and we didn't get all of
it yet. I mean we want to get it. It's not -- you know, I think -- what I'm hearing from you
and what I think maybe the concern is by some folks is that -- of the negative things that
were dealt with and now I think we are looking at what's the positive things. The
negative stuff is behind us. Everything has been very good and positive and I think we
want that expertise that we also are paying for with a consultant to say, yeah, these are
great, this is good, let's go forward, here is some suggestions, here is an organization
that -- here is how other people have dealt with some of these things. It looks like we
have dealt with plenty of them. Maybe there are still people out there who don't see that.
Maybe there is a way to know that. I think Councilman Bird is absolutely correct, you
know, the Mayor and the Council weren't immune from the comments. So, I don't think
we are looking for another study, I think we are looking for what do we do now. We may
have done most everything, but I think that's just the last piece of the puzzle that we
need to finish to get it done with and, then, go forward.
Smith: I appreciate your comments, Councilman Nary. I just wonder if six months is
adequate time to say we have got everything taken care of. I don't -- I guess I'm not --
I'm still pretty sensitive about it, in reality. I really am. I mean I still remember taking that
report home and reading it and not sleeping that night. Seriously. I mean it had a great
impact on me. And as many positive things that were said, the negative things really
stuck, much more than the positive things did. Even though Dawneen came out and
talked to us as a group afterwards and reiterated on the positives, it was still that
negative part of it that was hanging in there and it was because I felt like we were doing
a good job, that we were trying hard, we were working hard, you know, but things were
falling apart in some areas. There was one thing that I wanted to do that we haven't
been able to accomplish yet and that was to do some direct billing for the
subcontractors, so they didn't have to come in and pick up permits and pay for them all
the time, that they could do this electronically, we could bill them, and eliminate them
having to make a trip in. We haven't been able to get the software from our building
permit provider and, you know, as I checked this -- in fact, just today I checked again
and it's due by the end of March. So, there are some things that we haven't been able to
accomplish. Not many, but there are some things. You know, I have got some other
thoughts that I wanted to pursue about moving the building department to a more
accessible location in the same building. So, I just don't know that the time has --
enough time has past -- so, do you get to a point where too much time has past and
nobody remembers the questions that were asked and -- I don't know. I'm just --
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Gary -- and you're a hundred percent right. I mean if you have ten good things
written and one negative, the one negative sticks in your mind.
Smith: Yes, sir.
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March 11, 2003
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Bird: And, don't kid yourself, you weren't the only one that didn't sleep at nights. You
have five people here that were pretty -- having some pretty tough times, too, on it. But
I don't think there is a single person sitting in this city or sitting up here that would
expect you to do a 180-degree turn around in one year. You're attempting and doing a
great job. We are not getting the complaints anymore -- or at least I'm not. And that
means a lot and I think if you wait too far down the line, like you said, they forget it. And
I don't -- I think we are basically -- we are almost a year into this, really. It's not a year
since we got the thing, but it has been a year since she -- almost a year since she
started the program, so -- and I don't know how soon she can start. It might be this
summer before she was to start doing that stuff. We don't know. But it's like Councilman
Nary said, we haven't got the finished product that we paid for.
Smith: May I ask, Mr. Mayor and Council, was that part of the scope of her contract?
Was that to --
Bird: To do follow-up, go back and --
Corrie: To do follow-up, but it's going to cost us. Now, let me -- let me tell the Council.
Gary and I are meeting about every two weeks on these things. Gary and his
department have done a lot of changes. I haven't received the phone calls negative.
I've had a lot of phone calls that were positive. In this letter it said informal internal follow
up and, that's fine, I think we need a final follow-up. I agree there. My only question is
how much is it going to cost to have this follow up and also would require additional
training. We are spending another 35,000 dollars on this very training now and I'm
skeptical about how much we are going to add more on Mrs. Blakeslee. I think we do
need some follow up, but we don't -- it wasn't in her -- the fee has already been paid for
what she did. Now this is a follow up. And I think that we better, you know, just see how
much we need after Gary gets his report, how much follow up we need and, then, set a
price on this, because it can get very costly and I don't want us to see it that way,
because we have already got additional training coming down the road for 35,000 and
we don't need to pop that again. So, that's the only thing that I -- I really want to be
cautious about that, because -- not that she doesn't do a good job, I don't mean that, but
I just don't want to go spending more money on something that we --
Bird: Well, I don't believe we need the training from her. I want the follow up. That's
what I want is the follow up. The training is being done, I guess, from somebody else,
but --
Corrie: Just how formal do we want the follow up. That's what I --
Bird: Well, I don't think it has to be that formal.
Corrie: I don't either. I don't either.
Nary: All I wanted was that we have a work session, have it as part of our pre-Council
session, but, you know -- but for Mrs. Blakeslee to be able to give us some advice of
any kind, she's going to have to meet with Gary, she's going to have to meet with Brad,
and probably because part of that discussion that was had earlier was having some
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type of training, she is probably going to talk and see what the training is, so she can
give us some idea as to, okay, things have gone good, we have done all these
positives, there is all of these things -- if we don't want to do follow up out in the 110
people, we don't have to. That's okay. But I think that's just a conversation. I think that's
just our discussion. If she's got other thoughts to give us as to other training, she can tell
us what those are. We don't have to fund them tomorrow. I mean we have to work it in
our budget and how we do that. If she has other suggestions internally how we can
improve, great. I mean that's what I guess I'm thinking of as follow up and that's what --
that's closure to me of this -- of this particular survey that was done. That doesn't
necessarily mean we are going to do anything more with her, other than get that level of
follow up. We may like what she has and we may want to do a lot more things. I don't
know. Again, we have to look at it cost wise. But I think that's really all I was thinking is a
half hour, 45 minutes of our pre-Council we could dedicate to just doing that and having
that conversation, but prior to that she's probably going to have to meet with the
departments, so that she can get a better assessment, rather than just sitting here.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Well, I agree that they need to have the follow-up, but cost wise it's important for
us to --
De Weerd: I appreciate that.
Corrie: Tammy.
De Weerd: Just a final comment and to just build on a little bit of what Bill has said, the
workshop -- so we know what you're doing and so we can acknowledge that and
communicate it as well. But this is just a communication tool and even if we said a six-
month follow up just to show what you have done -- I realize, Gary, that you don't
change the world in a day and hardly sometimes a year. But I think it's important and
they probably already realize it, but that they get that kind of contact and it's something
that we committed to as well when we first went into it and I will tell you what, I have
been highly impressed with the integrity of Brad Watson, yourself, and Brad Hawkins-
Clark in this whole process and you really need to be commended for it. I went to a
program the other day at the Kiwanis, we had our mid year convention, and he
mentioned, you know, you can hear all the positives in the world and that one negative
will totally overshadow anything that was nice -- that was nice said. And I think the scale
really tipped to the positive side. So, I do want you to keep in that mind. But the way you
have handled it has been beyond reproach and I really commend you for that, you and
your staff, as well as P&Z. It's been a real positive external experience in seeing what
the outcomes coming out of your departments are.
Smith: Thank you very much. I appreciate those comments.
Corrie: Gary, I, too, want to say the same thing, because I have had a lot of contractors,
builders, call my office and I have told you guys this before, but there has been nothing
but positives come out of this whole thing. I have had not one negative, that it's all
where we are going. So, again, I echo Mrs. de Weerd, we are on the right track and I
agree with them, we need to have some follow up here to see just how we are doing,
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March 11, 2003
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where we are going, but my thought is we don't need to spend a lot of money and I don't
think you need to and Mr. Nary said what we needed to do and I think that's exactly
right. So, with that I will shut up. Five minutes update on --
De Weerd: Do we need a motion for that?
Corrie: No.
Nary: Just as follow up. And so are you, Mr. Mayor, going to work with them so we can
maybe have that work session?
Corrie: I will see if I can get it set for next week.
Nary: Great.
Item 14: Update on Amending the Fence Variance Ordinance:
Corrie: Update on amending the fence ordinance -- variance ordinance. Brad.
Hawkins-Clark: Let's see, Mr. Mayor. Okay. I guess, yeah, Will listed that on the
agenda. I didn't realize this was on. But, essentially, your staff would like to amend the
subdivision ordinance to eliminate the fence variance committee and have that process
be done at staff level and we would like your support in that and if you would give us the
go ahead, we will amend the ordinance.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I think Council Member McCandless was against this proposal. I think.
McCandless: I don't think so.
Corrie: I think I heard an amen down at the other end down there and I --
De Weerd: I'm sure.
Corrie: -- the whole thing is --
McCandless: Two years is enough.
Corrie: Shall we -- would you like to have this ordinance placed on the agenda, then?
Nary: Does it have to go to P&Z or has it already been --
Bird: It has to go.
Hawkins-Clark: It does.
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Corrie: It has to go.
Nary: Okay.
Hawkins-Clark: It does propose Councilwoman McCandless as the sole committee
person.
Bird: Yes. By ordinance.
Nary: When you said staff level review, that's what you meant. I understood that.
McCandless: You guys aren't nice at all.
Corrie: So, Mr. Berg, if you will see that this gets on the P&Z's meeting, okay?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we go into Executive Session per Idaho State Code 67-2345(1)(b).
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion made and seconded. Roll call vote, please.
Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Five minutes.
(Enter Executive Session 9:22)
De Weerd: I move we come out of the executive session.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and second to come out of executive session. Any
further discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say aye. Let the record show no
decisions were made in the executive session whatsoever. I will entertain a motion to
adjourn.
De Weerd: So moved.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. Adjourn is approved at a quarter
till 10. Thank you.
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MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:45 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK