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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 03-11 Pre Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 The Pre-Council Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Tuesday, February 4, 2003, by Mayor Robert Corrie. Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Bill Nary, Tammy de Weerd, Cherie McCandless and Keith Bird. Others Present: Bill Nichols, Brad Watson, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Kenny Bowers, Elroy Huff, Doug Strong and Will Berg Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird X Mayor Robert Corrie Corrie: Tuesday March 11, 2003 at 5:30. City Council Chambers. At this time I would like to have roll call attendance please Mr. Clerk. Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Corrie: Item number 2 is adoption of the agenda. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I would move that we approve the agenda as published. De Weerd: Second. Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion. Hearing none all those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed no. All ayes. Motion carried. We may have to go a little bit different then the scheduling here. Project Silvercreek Subdivision I think Brad isn’t here yet are they. No. The Marshall Ogden Property discussion. We are here okay. So lets have that discussion on the annexation of 1065 East Fairview Avenue. Item 4. Discussion of Marshall Ogden Property Annexation at 1065 East Fairview Avenue: Corrie: Brad do you want to give us a quick rundown of what we have here. Hawkins-Clark: Sure Mayor. Thank you Mayor, members of the Council. If I could just get to that second slide here. This isn’t the greatest vicinity map but it Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 2 of 25 may help you get an idea of the property that we are talking about. East Fairview Avenue is the parcel that it has frontage on. The address 1065, Jericho Road is just to the east. Harry’s car wash of course is here on the corner so we are talking more or less across from that. The proposed Devon Park Subdivision is this large 30 plus acre undeveloped piece on the north side. Hopefully the Mayor and Council received the one page summary from David McKinnon in the th planning department dated March 6. He kind of hits the highlights in that memo. Essentially the property back in 2002 was annexed through ordinance 934, its approximately one acre in size. The zoning designation is C-G, Commercial General, today. Our most intensive of out three commercial zones and essentially as part of that annexation process a little over a year ago the decision was made by Council to go ahead and annex with conditions that future redevelopment or reuse of this one acre comply with city ordinances. Primarily the landscaping and parking. That was included in the annexation, one of those was also a requirement to file for a conditional use on any use on the property prior to development. At that time the owner of the property Marshall Ogden and his partner Co Parker did have a buyer for the property that intended on developing it. As Dave points out there was a situation there where the sale of the property basically dissolved and the annexation continued on. So essentially what happened was a few weeks ago the property potential user did come to our department and this is when the question of the conditions came up anew and Dave did talk with Mr. Nichols the city attorney. He also talked with myself, we kind of three put our heads together and felt that to require for a conditional use permit would not be necessary given the wording that was in the annexation ordinance but we did feel that the other conditions of the annexation would need to remain. Primarily getting somewhat of a landscape buffer there on Fairview Avenue and bringing the parking area up to code. So David McKinnon did receive as I understand it from, I don’t know if it was from Mr. Ogden or who, evidence that the property was zoned C-2. So it did have a commercial zone in Ada County before the city annexed it last year and certainly that would allow them to continue the use of the property as it was. So I think really the question before the Mayor and Council tonight is to discuss the annexation, to discuss the conditions that were places on it last year. A potential deannexation which of course that clause is in the annexation ordinance or a potential reduction of our city ordinances in order to allow development of the property to proceed. So I hope I’ve hit sort of the main highlights of it. The applicant is here tonight. Corrie: Do we have any questions of Brad at this point? Representative for Mr. Ogden’s property. Give us your name and address please. Ogden: Marshall Ogden. 7000 Plano Lane in Boise. Corrie: Thank you Marshall. Ogden: Do you want me to add to it or just answer questions or what? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 3 of 25 Corrie: Well, does the Council have any questions? What would you like for us to do? Ogden: Well I guess not being astute land people apparently the people that went in for the rezoning, Smith Brighton, either thought that it was just residential that they said on their map and on their papers it was R-1 or whatever it is in Ada County and so probably your decisions are based on some of the information that you had at that time. So there was some erroneous information given there. So when they backed out on this proposed development then we sent a letter to the Council requesting that it not be annexed and then apparently the Council felt that it was appropriate to annex it anyway and so it was annexed with what he described here. My understanding was and this is where we got in to the dilemma was from what I knew is that if we didn’t change anything if the house would still remain the same and the property remained the same then we wouldn’t have to fall under all the new rules that they had. And subsequently the Blakes came, Kim and Cheryl, right here came wanting to lease the place with an option to buy. And so this is where - I told them what I thought was the case as soon as they build a new building or did something of that nature as a quote development that they have new rules and regulations that they would have to comply with. I didn’t think that they would have to if they just used as is. And we went through this whole process with Ada County you know and all the district health and roads and all this, which gave us permission to have it as a business without having the water and the sewer with these conditions as long as we kept the physical plant I guess the way it currently is. So we kind of went into an agreement and they went down about putting a sign there and this is when it all came out that it wasn’t that way. So I guess I don’t know it might be a part of my fault except that I was going by what we had with Ada County and we had a C-2 with Ada County and I just found out that you guys thought it was a residential when you annexed it. And this is the quandary is whether my thinking would have been and I was telling Dave is that the City eventually wanted to have it in there, anyway I wondered if there’s anyway you could have some provisions to have it comparable to Ada County that we had. And when this developing business got to the point where they wanted to expand or add things to it then they would have to comply with it. But they have a harvest house and what they would like is a farmy atmosphere with a pasture next to it and the old house there for the type of business that they are in. So they are not currently you know in the building up stages, they don’t want to jump into a big project and we’ve had several people actually wanting to purchase it and then when they found out all the expense because I don’t know how far all these things are but apparently its significant to try and bring everything in there to comply with that regulation. So partially I’m done and partially my understanding with such that I got ourselves into this. But our goal I guess to state the goal is to have Kim and Cheryl Blake lease this with an option to buy and have it utilized how it was zoned and then if they make the changes we would have to comply with the rules that are currently. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 4 of 25 Corrie: Council questions? Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Marshall when we originally brought this up for annexation you had requested it be continued for two weeks. At what point did you physically write a letter asking to not have it – Ogden: I didn’t. My partner Co did. Bird: You have a copy of the letter that you wrote and what date it was wrote on because we are going back over a year and I don’t know about the rest of the Council. I don’t recall I know that we continued it for two weeks. Ogden: David new about it so I don’t know. Does – is it Brad? Does he have a copy of that letter? He was the one that was telling me about it. C. Blake: I saw a copy of it. Corrie: Name and address please. C. Blake: I’m Cheryl Blake. 2252 East Green Meadow Court here in Meridian. When I went to get this temporary sign is what I wanted, that was one of the papers that David showed to me that was from Co. Bird: Okay. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Brad it seems to me if we deannxed the property there in no different position then they were a year ago with it if we deannex it but how does it impact them to do what they would like to do. th Hawkins-Clark: Councilman Nary. I was just reviewing the April 28 1994 letter that is signed by Chairman Vern Blisterfeldt Ada County Commissioner basically granting approval of the rezone. This is an Ada County approval to a commercial zone in 1994. I think that the benefit is that the C-2 zone should it go back to the original zone prior to annexation and again I haven’t read all the way through this but it appears to allow them to have to avoid the landscape buffer which cutting the pavement and putting in the underground sprinkling and installing a couple of planters and things like that. So I think that maybe the cost that Mr. Ogden is referring to so I think that’s the benefit. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 5 of 25 Nary: Yeah the C-G zone that was granted would allow them to do what they want to do other then the improvements that are necessary. So we gave them a comparable zone to the C-2 zone. Hawkins-Clark: Right. Nary: But if we just deannexed it then it just would put them back to where they were a year ago and they can do whatever they can do under the county zoning. Ogden: We had the zoning to have an office there and if we had that same zoning and I retired because of medical reasons and then we wanted to lease it out to them and we still had that same zoning but would they be able to just use it. Hawkins-Clark: I’m sorry I don’t think I gathered the point of your – Ogden: Without going through all the sidewalks and all that stuff. Hawkins-Clark: I think that you know largely in Ada County of course at that point it becomes an Ada County decision. Ogden: But that was my understanding, you know. What I was talking to Dave about I didn’t know if that was comparable that it – whether it would be best to go back to Ada County if your eventually wanting to have it in there anyway and whether there are some provisions that you could make that would apply to that. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Is this property, its not on sewer correct? Its not on sewer or water? Ogden: No. Nary: I guess from my perspective Mr. Ogden I mean its almost one or the other. Either it goes back to the county zoning and you are no different then where you were a year and a half ago when you asked the city to annex it and then you can do whatever the county zoning allows you to do. If you want to know our preference, I think our general preference is that we not have these little pockets of the county throughout the city and that it will eventually be in the city but I understand your concerns but you know you asked to be annexed and it looks like we granted it. Now you didn’t realize that wasn’t what you were asking for and you would like us to not annex it anymore and that’s fine but I guess granting some sort of waiver from the requirements along Fairview Avenue for me is personally kind of difficult I mean we are trying to get all of those businesses to be comply and consistent all the way down Fairview Avenue its awfully difficult to annex your property because the other expense is hooking up to sewer and Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 6 of 25 hooking up to water and all of those things that cost more money. We certainly couldn’t waive that, that’s going to cost some money. The other requirements for landscaping (inaudible) I personally like I said I’m not really wanting to waive those requirements because we make everybody else go on it. Ogden: Its like they wanted to put some landscaping up you know its not like we are adverse to the landscaping. Nary: I understand. And we deal with making it smaller and we’ve done some of those things but we certainly haven’t just simply said you don’t have to do it. Ogden: It’s a significant cost. I’m not sure how far the water is but Ada County, I have some letters that gave us permission for us to continue using the well and not having to be on the water. Not having to bring those in to be zoned C-2. Nary: So at least for me I guess I couldn’t feel comfortable with waiving the requirement to hook up to the sewer and water system. That’s everybody else’s requirement is to hook up to sewer and water within a certain period of time. They have got to do it. I guess for me I couldn’t see wanting to do that. Ogden: (Inaudible) a long ways clear across, like 800 feet or something to bring it down to us. And we are kind of a dead end road. Nary: Its right on Fairview isn’t it? Bird: Its there. Nary: I think the water and sewer are there. De Weerd: Water’s there. Bird: Water. Ogden: I don’t know. Smith: Mr. Mayor, council members. Water is along the south side of Fairview across the front of the property. It extends from Jericho west across the front of the used car dealership. Sewer is another issue. There is a – it comes out of Jericho on to Fairview and turns east. I don’t know how far that is from Mr. Ogden’s property but it’s probably diagonally 300 feet across Fairview on an angle. Brad Watson just mentioned that were not sure how deep. I think it’s fairly deep there on Fairview but from our sewer plant it’s supposed to sewer south into the Danbury Fair Subdivision eventually. So sewer is a bit of an issue for this parcel. Ogden: I couldn’t remember if it was sewer or water. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 7 of 25 Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Gary what about the Phillips 66 and that O’Leary barn property and stuff where does that sewer or does it sewer? Smith: I’m sorry Mr. Bird which property? Bird: The Phillips 66 that car wash and stuff and the property for. Smith: The Ultra Touch Car Wash? Bird: Yeah the Ultra Touch and all them in there. Smith: It sewers south. Their property sewers south toward the trunkline that runs along five mile creek. Bird: And this is what this property would have to do with it. Smith: As Brad mentioned its set up – it’s designated to sewer to the south in to Danbury Fair. But this property is on the east side of the car dealer. Bird: I know where it is at. Smith: And Ultra Touch is on the west side. Bird: Yes and the other one is right there but there all aligned there and there’s that little – Smith: There’s a stub street that comes out of Danbury Fair, that’s where it was – Bird: That’s where the sewer stops? Smith: Yeah the sewer stops on that stub street on the north edge of Danbury Fair. I don’t know who owns that big piece of property that kind of wraps around borders Mr. Ogden’s property on the south but – Bird: And Gary is any of that property around there is any of that annexed that you know of you or Brad? Ogden: I think Morgan’s property is the one that’s around. Smith: Yeah that’s right, Morgan’s. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 8 of 25 Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I guess at least for me Mr. Ogden and again I don’t know what the rest of the Council thinks I mean I guess we are sort of leaving it up to you. I mean if you want and maybe you do need to go explore that with Ada County as well. I mean I guess for me I don’t have a problem with deannexing your property if that’s what you want us to do. I don’t know if that works for your benefit or not I mean I guess you have to decide that. I think all we’re faced with is the question is that a little over a year ago you had asked for a delay and there was some misunderstanding between you and planning and the Council has to whether or not you meant a delay for two weeks or indefinitely. But there was some misunderstanding about that delay and that delay caused your property to be annexed and that wasn’t your preference or at least it may not be your preference now. Now again, I don’t have a big heartburn in for myself in deannexing property its just putting you back to the same position you were in 14 months ago and if you think that works for your benefit that’s not our preference as I said having these little pockets of the county throughout the city can be very cumbersome to deal with. Otherwise if you were annexed into the city you would have to hook up to the water system to me and you have to hook up to the sewer system when you were able to do that when the properties able to do it. Whatever our requirements are that everybody else has to follow. The other things landscaping and parking and those kinds of things we could deal with through the CUP process and we do that all the time that doesn’t concern me but I guess ultimately its really up to you. I mean what would you like us to do is really the question I think that we really need to have answered. Ogden: I guess as I mentioned I don’t know really what I want to do other then the fact that I just wanted them to be able to lease the property and buy it and use it as is. Soon as they start developing anything that they would have to comply with all the things we have been talking about. But I really don’t know what the Ada County deal is as I say you know because like with the water we had a paper from them that says its okay to still use your well water and this kind of thing under their zoning. Now I don’t know now if there’s the back and forth thing. I don’t know really if they would say okay you were that way but now you are not and to get you back in we have to upgrade your deal so I don’t know. Corrie: I would suggest that you go ask the county P and Z if that business that they want can still be used there under your C-2 with no changes. If it can then you maybe want us to just deannex it. If they have to do other things its still going to be just as costly and I think they would be better off coming to the city because they have all the services here. So. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 9 of 25 Ogden: Okay say that we couldn’t and we just wanted to rent it, we weren’t selling it. Does it have any varying on – or if I let it sit vacant. Where are we there? Nary: I think you can let it sit vacant. I think that’s what its been doing right for the last 14 months? Ogden: Well since last, we have rented it a couple of times. You know to different people. But I mean just what you are saying is when the annexing process happened no matter what happened to that property all these things were supposed to of happened. See I never understood that. Because we didn’t do anything. Although we do have sprinkling system and stuff that we put on there but that was for our own – Corrie: So I would suggest personally go back and find out form the county planning and zoning people whether you can have that business there or if you change the businesses now you’ll have to do something with them and maybe just as costly as coming into the city. What you need to do is come back and tell us what you can do and what you want and we can make that decision. Anybody have any other comments? Nichols: Mr. Mayor members of the Council and Mr. Ogden. The one thing that I don’t know if its addressed in the statutes is if you deannex does it automatically go back to the former zoning from the county’s perspective or does there need to be some sort of application at the county level. So when you ask – when you go to planning services at the county say if Meridian deannexes it will we go back to that C-2 zoning or will we have to make some sort of application with you. Ogden: Yeah that was my question. Nichols: Because you need to know the answer to that question as far as timing and everything else that goes along with what you and your perspective tenants want to do on that property. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: The one thing Mr. Ogden I don’t want you to leave here without knowing one thing at least I think part of why we are here is it is in the city currently and you can’t operate a business in that facility without it being in the proper zone and complying with all the requirements to do that so you can’t do that. Am I wrong? I mean they can’t continue to operate like they have been if they have been renting it out for business uses without complying with the requirements of the zoning and the CUP that was opposed. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 10 of 25 Hawkins-Clark: That’s correct. Ogden: Well we had it rented out as a house. Nary: I just didn’t want you to leave here thinking you could at least maintain what you’ve been doing because you can’t do that. You can’t have a business operate in there without complying with the requirements. Ogden: Can I get this property moved to Custer County? Nary: If you can figure out how to do that. Corrie: It will be a long haul for the Sheriff. Ogden: Thank you. Corrie: Thank you Marshall. Hawkins-Clark: I’m sorry Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Yes. Hawkins-Clark: Could I just ask one question of legal? Mr. Nichols just for clarification the requirement for them to comply with the landscaping and parking is in the adopted findings of fact and conclusions of law. Ordinance number 934 doesn’t have those conditions on it. I guess I’m just wondering from a technicality perspective is we have amended findings in the past and if they have submitted an application to amend the findings to soften these requirements. I mean if that’s an option. Nichols: Mr. Mayor, members of the council. It’s in the findings because it’s in the ordinance. And so a lot of times we use the findings as a means to inform an applicant you know here are the requirements that you are going to have to meet per the ordinance. Because the landscaping ordinance already sets out the buffer along the arterials and that applies as soon as the property is annexed. And the parking requirements and all of those things. One of the questions here is that you know it could be looked at as a nonconforming use when it was brought in or that sort of thing or non conforming structure which is different then a nonconforming use. So we put those in there but you can’t unless they change the ordinance the ordinance still would require a 35 foot landscape buffer along that main arterial and those kinds of things. So I’m not sure. We might be able to differ perhaps some of those improvements to such time as the structure changes size, footprint some sort of thing associated with so that because there already is a building there. As long as it stayed the same size and wasn’t expanded beyond a certain percentage or something. You might be able to differ Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 11 of 25 some of those improvements and tie it in to future developments in some fashion. Typically when it comes in it has to come up to what the standards are. Hawkins-Clark: Thank you. Corrie: Okay. Thank you Marshall. Let us know how you want to proceed. 3. Tabled from February 4, 2003: Discussion of Lee Centers Project - Silver Creek Subdivision (fka Powder River Subdivision): Corrie: Discussion on Lee Centers project. Silver Creek Subdivision. Powder River Subdivision. Brad. Hawkins-Clark: Mayor members of the Council. The discussion here tonight on Urban Services is on of a couple that you actually have on your agenda tonight the last item on the regular meeting is also going to touch on this issue so. I trust that you’ve had a chance to review the memo that I submitted and that Mr. Bird has had a chance to review maybe possible some of the minutes from the last February meeting that he missed which was one of the primary reasons that this item was continued was because of his absence. I think generally what I’ve laid th out in my March 7 memo is the Planning and Zoning Departments there is just three additional considerations that we had after the February meeting and of course you had it one month before that as well. But we have received just today a concept sketch plat for the 150 plus acres and the screen does show generally the area that we are talking about. Victory Road is up here on the north Amity on the south Linder. The property specifically is more less here at the half mile on south Linder Road between Victory and Amity on the east side of Linder. Unless you would like me to hit sort of point by point items of the memo. I think as I understand the reason for this is to allow the Council to hear any other issues from Mr. Centers or Clint Boyle his representative. There are of course all urban service issues to be considered and the memo that you received last month that kind of laid out the five development scenarios that he has available to him on this property. Everything from leaving it as a five acre lot subdivision in Ada County to developing a full blown urban density subdivision in the county but with urban services. There are numerous sort of point kind of hanging on this that have been discussed a well that Mr. Centers has offered to design and construct and dedicate to the city to potential park land to potential substation fire lot, a pathway greenbelt system. All of these things have been thrown out on the table and essentially we are looking at a policy decision on whether or not that Council is prepared to extend particularly I guess the urban water and sewer to allow this development to happen in the county who has stated that they are looking very strongly to the City of Meridian for our recommendation on this development. I think the issue of – the path of annexation was one that I touched on and this map doesn’t give a real good overview but you can see the south end of Bear Creek Subdivision here on the north side of Victory. Stoddard Road is here that comes down. Kentucky Ridge Subdivision borders the property here on the Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 12 of 25 north. As you can see a lot of this Subdivision in Ada County, I think these are one or two acre lot Subdivisions. Egers Subdivision and Pebble Lane, one to three acre lots. Kentucky Ridge is here which is more of an urban density as well as Meridian Heights Subdivision. So in terms of the city agreeing to except even if the city required the lots to annex in the future when the city could annex it in the future. The question is are we concerned about when that would be? So you can see there are some challenges getting a path of annexation to this property. It’s not unforeseeable that it would come south of Meridian Heights and come in this way. This property here as been discussed for development over the last four or five years, on the corner of Meridian and Amity and that does border this property. Mainly we just wanted to include that for your consideration. There is also as I a put into the memo the condition that Kentucky Ridge Estates says that they must connect to Meridian once the services are reasonably available. And that condition is on the Kentucky Ridge Estates final plat. So you know I think there’s many considerations, you have in your packets a couple of letters from Mr. Boyle that kind of hit some other highlights of the development and from a long range planning standpoint I guess our opinion is to allow this to have a fairly controlled staging or phasing of development at an urban density that we get the sidewalks on both sides of the streets. That the lot sizes as they are proposing an R-4 in Ada County, which would be sort of your 8 10 12 thousand square foot lots. There certainly are some benefits to that as compared to letting it come in with some services that are sort of partial compliance. I guess that’s all I had. Corrie: Any questions of Brad at this point. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess hearing from staff. I know Joe took a look this from the fire perspective and urban versus rural and he might have something to add at this point. Silva: Councilperson De Weerd, Council. We discussed this at the rural commissioners meeting last night and Mr. Centers as of a bout a week ago there had been a proposal to perhaps at least offer the city and the fire department a potential site for a fire station location. One of the considerations in placing it within this development would be with the development in the redevelopment district in downtown Meridian we would have a greater need for services and we need to be able to provide reinforcements for calls for service in and around the speedway because of the intensity of the development that will take place around that area. With that thought in mind a location strategically located closer to Meridian Road, which would allow for a quicker access on our north south axis might be more preferable for a future fire station location. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 13 of 25 Corrie: Did that answer your question? Thank you. Okay Clint. We haven’t got all night so be quick. De Weerd: Five minutes. Corrie: Name and address please. Boyle: Meridian City Council members. Clint Boyle, Pinnacle Engineers. 12552 West Executive Drive. I’ll try to limit my comments to three minutes or less. I may go over that slightly. I apologize. I was under the impression we were starting at six o’ clock. So therefore I’ll try to keep it concise and not waste a lot of your time tonight. This item has been in front of you previously. You have seen a request in the past for a subdivision on this site and there were some issues related to sewer treatment etcetera. This proposal that is in front of you tonight is a project where Mr. Centers is striving to come up with a development on the property and wants to proceed with some sort of development on the property. He wants it to obviously be a benefit for himself but he’s also tying to reach some common ground with the City of Meridian and make this a development that everybody can be happy with that the city feels they are getting some benefit and Mr. Centers does as well. I will make the assumption that all of you have seen the scenarios that have been presented so I’m not going to dive in to a bunch of details on those. If you have questions I will answer those. However what I did want to emphasize was a couple of things. Since the last pre council meeting that we had on this site. I have had discussions with Brad on the project on a couple different occasions and received his memo on that. The discussions that we have had again from the planning standpoint was that it seemed to be one of the preferable routes at least from the planning staff was that we submit a concept plan that indicated what the overall build out of this project may look like. Now with that concept plan again this would be an Ada County project currently, with that concept plan if that moves forth and moves through Ada County for approvals with the city’s input we would also have a request for rezone and a preliminary plat that would incorporate what essentially would be 39 lots. Those 39 lots are shown on the exhibit in front of you. This particular exhibit demonstrates the overall boundary of the property with what Mr. Centers is proposing as phase one of this development. What does that mean as far as submittals. Our submittal to the county would include the concept plan for the over all build out showing the over all development of the property what he has in mind. It would also entail a rezoning to an R-4 zone on the just over 16 acres indicated in what would be the south west corner of the property and the preliminary plat on that same 16 acres. What does that do for the city? It requires Mr. Centers to come back in front of the city with subsequent phases with a preliminary plat the city will have more review and control as each phase progresses forward. My understanding and Brad can correct me if I’m wrong here is that the city at least from the City Council standpoint the final plats are not reviewed by the council. So if a preliminary plat were approved on an entire project that would be the only time that you would see the project and then each Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 14 of 25 final plat would just be staff level approval. Am I correct in that Brad? Okay. So this way the City Council again can see the phasing as it comes in because we would be submitting a preliminary plat on each phase along with the final plat. As far as the other benefits to the city again you’ll know up front what you are going to have out in this area as far as urban development. What it also allows is with Mr. Centers knowing that he can eventually move towards this ultimate build out. It also allows him to make some commitments to the city as far as potential dedications of well sites and also construction of the city well, which has been discussed previously with Council, and we’ve had various discussions with Gary Smith on that idea. Benefits again there to the city is that the city would be able to have ownership of that well or at least some sort of first (inaudible) of the well however that was negotiated with the city and that would keep any other surface providers out of the area. In other words Lee would have the option if he were to develop in the county and do a community well of having some other service provider such as United Water take over that system for him. The other benefits to the city is that the developer is also willing to negotiate for potential park dedications and we do have a concept plan that was submitted to Brad that shows the overall development. I do have some copies of that if Council would like to see them, it indicates where the potential park dedications may occur. As you recall the last time I was in front of you I actually had a copy of the concept plan, that sketch in front of you and the idea here is that there is a few options that may benefit the city. There would be a potential greenbelt pathway that would extend from Linder Road to the eastern extents of the property to a park site there. Then as future development occurred east of this project which would be this larger parcel up on your screen that that could also expand upon that park area and so the city could end up with a nice city park with a greenbelt path from Linder Road right to the parkway. So there are some benefits that he’s placing out on the table with this development. Part of the issues that we talked about in the past are the extension of services. Mr. Centers is interested in pursing connection to city services of this project. He would be wiling to provide that connection himself in the sewer and water main lines. And again this would be based on his understanding that he would be over time allowed to proceed with the full build out of the project. And realistically the way that boils down is that if he only is only going to be looking at a development with ultimately 30 or 40 lots out here till such time in the future as he is annexed or the Black Cat Trunk is available, it doesn’t give him as much flexibility to spread the costs associated with construction the well, dedicating park sites etcetera. In my discussions with Brad Hawkins-Clark with the city, my understanding from the discussions that he has had with public works was that Public Works from an engineering standpoint felt that either method, either connecting to city services and or doing the quality water system would potentially be a feasible route and it was more of a policy decision and maybe Gary can clarify from an engineering standpoint but my understanding is that public works department doesn’t have any serious issues with either the quality water system from a design standpoint and or the possibility of extending that sewer system. And again I haven’t – Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 15 of 25 (End of Side One) Boyle: -- but he might be able to shed some light on that if there is objections there. Has this occurred in the past, has the city extended services outside of city limits previously? Again my understanding is yes they have. They’ve done it with several other subdivisions, as you are aware. They have also done it with other projects that Brad and I have talked about with Summers Funeral Home and Edinburgh Place, Vienna Woods. I mean there are various examples that we could give and all of them have unique situations related to them. This particular project Lee is willing to enter into an annexation agreement with the city. He would be willing to indicate that this project will be annexed when contiguous to the city on the final plat on the deeds and the CC and R’s. So it’s very clear to any potential buyers in the marketing disclosures that when the city is contiguous that it would annex into the city. And he’s also again willing to enter into the development agreements for the well construction and potential dedication to the wells and the park site as well. My understanding again and I think we have all the players here is that Mr. Nichols had talked to the planning staff about that and seemed to be under the impression that we would be able to proceed with that route from a legal standpoint as far as having those provisions in the development agreement that’s entered into with the county. With that in we are here tonight to try and come together and reach some consensus on this and come up with a project that will benefit the city and benefit Mr. Centers as well and everybody can come out feeling like it’s a win win situation. And we are here to hopefully receive some council direction on this. When we met with Ada County on this project they preferred to see a master site plan on the entire site. However with that said they said well in the past based on Meridian’s comments in the past they are going to look towards Meridian for some direction on what Meridian wants to see in their area of impact. Again that is why we are here in front of you tonight is to find out what our options are and how the Council feels about the options and the offer that’s on the table. Thank you. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I got one for Gary more then Clint. But Gary I thought that they were going to put in a first class sewer system that when we got ours out. I don’t know any sewer system that is even close to that area right now that is capable of being hooked to. We can’t go down Bear Creek because we overloaded baby. I’ll never vote to put anything more on that line. Smith: Councilman Bird, Mayor and Council. There have been two options discussed. One was the on site treatment facility. The other was to locate a pump station on site and pump to the bear creek lift station in off peak hour time schedule. We don’t know for sure what the impact to our system would be with that scenario. I’ve talked to Brad Watson about it and our discussion has been Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 16 of 25 that it probably wouldn’t be that great of an impact on us on off peak times initially. Full build out, that’s another question that hydraulic calculation needs to be made. You know we aren’t absolutely sure how that is going to work or how many homes could be developed under that scenario. We are interested in seeing that operation of sewer and water facilities are available by the City of Meridian and not another entity. Its my understanding and I can’t recall who I was talking to but I think that someone in our staff it might have been Brad Hawkins-Clark about the definition of municipal services under a county subdivision urban lot subdivision. That the County defines municipal services as either city or a sewer water district. So I’m not sure about the legalities of the dissolution of a sewer district or water district or how difficult that is. Seems like somewhere along the line I’ve understood its difficult once they are formed but I don’t know how difficult. The other thing that I guess one thing that we have talked a little bit about previously is setting a precedent not only in this area but in other areas in Meridian. I’ve always been of the attitude that we try hard not to pump sewage from one drainage area to another just from an impact standpoint on gravity service development. But I also understand that other cities have worked in off peak hour periods of time for doing that on a temporary basis. Your probably aware, well I’m sure you are aware of the interest in the construction of the interchange on Ten Mile Road and I-84 along with the associated extension of the Black Cat sewer trunk that we presently have a consoling engineer under contract for design of that trunk right now and they are preceding with it. Were assuming that all things go well with the acquisition of easements, approval of plans etcetera. The engineer is projecting that that trunk lines should be constructed within two and a half years something like that. The interchange is – the developer Eastborn is being very aggressive about moving forward with the design and they have done some preliminary concept design that the city has been a partner in as far as financing and they have been very aggressive in meeting with property owners and around the interchange and so you know its hard to put a time period on that but it kind of boils down to financing that’s available. Or that they are able to secure that the developer is able to secure that they can use as kind of a bargaining chip with ITD to secure state funding or a share of that interchange. Difficult to – and at the meeting last week that Mayor Corrie, Brad Watson and I attended a representative from ITD didn’t want to put his finger on any time periods as far as when this could happen. But anyway having said all of that five to seven years from now that may be a reality, we just don’t know. And where Lee Centers project is, in five to seven years if we are still pumping in to the Black Cat trunk and we do have an eight inch line in Overland Road that this Black Cat sewer lift station pumps into that needs to be analyzed for even during this off peak time pumping but I think even on the shorter period we don’t have a big concern with being able to do this. And I guess weighing that against having another party enter into operation and maintenance or ownership of a utility for the subdivision, water and or sewer. Bird: Gary I don’t believe we need to worry about having another party come into our impact area. I think we still got some power as long as its in our impact area Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 17 of 25 we would have, as I understand it, we would have to agree with it. But when we put the last one in that sewer system coming out of your department we had real concern about not having the capacity on down the line. We had to do some stuff at Franklin Road to change some things. What about Franklin Road as it starts developing, we got and I realize they are not heavy users that are going out there right now but station – Smith: They are all flowing to the west into the Black Cat sewer. Bird: They all flow to the west are they doing that right now? Smith: No. Bird: What are they doing now? Smith: They will be going into Franklin Road. Bird: In the back right? Smith: Yes, correct. Bird: And as far as I now on that Black Cat Trunk we are only going to the freeway at this point. Smith: We’re taking – our project is taking it to Ten Mile Road we are short of the freeway by going through the property that Eastborn develops or owns. Bird: Yeah we are going to Ten Mile and then at that point we go back up Ten Mile and then we start getting the Franklin deal thing in here. Smith: Right there is part of that that goes up Ten Mile Road. Bird: I have absolutely no problem with this as long as you and Brad are comfortable with it. But if it’s going to affect somebody that is already on that line that can’t be on another line then we need to take another look. I think the development that Lee has brought forward is very good. I like the R-4 situation cause we as a city moves out there it’ll conform and come into it. We don’t want another Kentucky Ridge sewer system. I have no problem with it but I just, after Bear Creek your department was quite concerned that we had put too much on that line. But if you are feeling comfortable now. Smith: Well I guess the whole card here is that the sewage would be held on site on their site in a holding take and it would be discharged to our system in off peak time period. That’s the whole card. Otherwise we would still definitely have the same stance that we had on Bear Creek and I’m still saying this would kind of a degree of hesitation because we don’t know for sure what the hydraulic impact Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 18 of 25 is going to be to the system even in off period. We just got some flow information from our Waste Water Department on Bear Creek. Brad hasn’t had a chance to analyze it to see what kind of impact that is having on the system right now. But we do have that information now. Bird: As long as you and Brad feel comfortable with it. I have no problems with it. I have no problems if you feel comfortable with it. If we pass something and recommend something and five months later have the staff come back and say you guys screwed up. Like we had at Bear Creek. Smith: We didn’t say that Councilman. Corrie: Any other comments from Council. McCandless: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. McCandless McCandless: At one time I know we had this concept of wanting to develop Meridian from the inside out. Not from the outside in. Which is what we would be doing with this. I’m still pretty consistent with my feeling that if we are going to develop property south of the freeway we really need to take a long look at the infrastructure and I’m not just talking about sewer and water but I’m talking about roads. I’m talking about police and fire protection. I’m talking about all that. And I don’t agree with this type of concept out there at this time. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Councilwoman McCandless. This would be Ada County’s Police at this point until we grew out and annexed. Then I’d hope our police department would be grown. The fire district they are already paying taxes out there a pretty healthy mill levy to the rural fire district for fire protection. That would be just more money for the rural fire district. So in my book that isn’t something – that’s something we should look at but it isn’t a real big concern. Smith: Mayor. Corrie: Gary. Smith: I’d like to make one more comment. What Brad Watson and I were in need of is your opinion as to whether or not this is a viable request by the developer so that we could as your engineering department move forward with a hydraulic analysis of what impact this sewer system is going to have on our system and if we are going to be able to handle this. Because at this point what Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 19 of 25 we have is kind of a gut feeling that initially we are not going to have an issue but how far along the development of this 152 acres are we going to get before we do have an issue even with off peak pumping. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd. De Weerd: Its sprawl. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to not be blunt but you know I understand that Mr. Centers needs to do something because he has an investment and he needs to do something. This is not a growth area that this Council has talked about as any kind of priority and by either pumping or anything else, its going against the policies that we have been talking about over that last year, two years, three years and if we make exceptions here we are going to have to make exceptions every single time we might as well just change our policies and say lets open the doors and I don’t care where you are in our area of impact have at it. We can’t service that area. I’m more in the mind of if we are not going to be able to service that in a timely fashion we should not have it in our area of impact. And it should be allowed to grow at rural density because it would be county property then. But at this point we can not support it at an urban density its not good growth patterns, it’s not what we have been telling our public through the Comprehensive Plan process through any of our ordinance discussions. Through even some of the development applications, this will be totally inconsistent to what we have been talking about in the past. Corrie: Let me asking you a question Clint. How long is your client willing to wait until we have all these studies done? Boyle: Hydrology study? Is that specifically – Corrie: The other studies (inaudible) of why we should and all that so everybody is comfortable. How long are you willing to wait? Boyle: You know that’s probably a question that Lee would have to answer himself. I guess I would just bring up the point that he has been in the area of impact and the urban service planning area for 10 years. He’s still in it as of the last Comprehensive Plan update he is still in the Urban Service Planning Area. Now granted Ada County adopted that in 97 again that says an area that is reasonably going to grow in 10 years and we are definitely out to those limits right now. As far as how long could he wait, he’s waited quite some time already. Certainly he wants to move forward but he wants it to be something that again that the city feels comfortable with and that would be a benefit to everyone. If we are talking about a matter of weeks or a couple of months I imagine that would probably be acceptable, if we are talking a year or to two years to do the studies. That is probably not acceptable for what he is looking to do. I just might it on the sprawl issue. Obviously there has already been a lot of development within this Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 20 of 25 area. There is Kentucky Ridge, Meridian Heights all of those projects have densities that are very similar to what we are proposing here and they are all right in the same section for what we are prosing this development. If you look at surrounding sections in that area there aren’t that many sections south of Victory Road that have that type of urban density that has already occurred within it. Tuscany Lakes Subdivision extends as far south and you can see from this map as we are proposing here. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: You know I’m sorry but Clint I think the concept is really nice the timing just isn’t and I agree with your client. If we can’t serve it in that 10 years amount of time we should seriously be considering about taking it out of our area of impact because even looking at all the indicators. We are not going to get the Black Cat trunk to that area after, even within the next five or seven years from what I just heard and two wrongs do not make a right. You know none of the current Council right now we are sitting up here when those applications came through. I can’t answer to that but what we’ve been trying to do is really look at developing our community in a planned way that’s going to benefit the community as a whole and I don’t even think we are going to be benefiting your client by setting him out there, and I think it is in the middle of nowhere because its not contiguous. And that is one thing that we really showed a commitment to is growing contiguously from the inside out and not creating pockets and not creating more headaches to not only our services but also our citizens. And I don’t know what direction the legislature is going to go but I’m really hesitant to create another fiasco like happens in Boise or Rexburg or Hayden Lake or anything else where I don’t care how many places who put that you are going to agree to annex when you are contiguous it probably has changed hands three or four times by then and no one cares at that point they do not care that they promised when they signed that they would annex, it still will be a nightmare. And I don’t think it’s a policy that the city is eager to have to go through and adopt. Corrie: Okay I’m going to close this off real quick. Mr. nary do you have anything. Nary: Mr. Mayor I guess the only thing I would add is I think echoing the same thing Council member De Weerd and McCandless said. This just doesn’t seem to fit and I think we probably need to look at taking this area out of the area of impact. I agree with Mr. Centers, I mean he has waited a long time. We have an obligation to get there we are not going to get there. It doesn’t appear that we are going to be able to meet that and I just assume move that out because although I do agree with what Councilman Bird said was that its not necessarily our police and fire that are serving this area all of those people think we are Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 21 of 25 responsible for the way it looks out there. It doesn’t matter to them what car shows up at their house. They think its our responsibility they think its all part of Meridian its on that map that’s its part of Meridian in their mind. And if we are not going to serve it and that’s what I’m hearing is that I think we really need to look at that and whatever the county wants to do they can do. Corrie: Okay. Clint. Boyle: Can I just ask one final question then before we wrap up? Let me ask the Council this then. If this property were contiguous to the city would the discussion be different as far as the council’s opinion. If this was contiguous to the city would the thoughts and feelings be different? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: At least for me it would be more like Tuscany Lakes, you used that as an example and it was contiguous to the city. That was why at least three of us agreed that that was worth extending to. So if it was it certainly would be worth that discussion I mean I think we still have some issues about service but I think if it was contiguous it certainly would be a little bit more to talk about. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: We have too many ifs going here for me and the way I’m hearing it we have three to one and that’s not going to give me an opportunity to do anything but personally I think there is just too many ifs here. We got people all around that’s going to want to come in and everything else so Mrs. de Weerd you can have the last word here. De Weerd: I guess I just wanted to respond to Mr. Boyle’s question it would be slightly different because the access that you are talking about is off of Linder and none of the urban densities in that area is really off of Linder its more off of Victory its more off of Victory or the freeway there, I guess its just a highway it seems like a freeway at times. But and I don’t even think it would be the rural clustering idea is you know so that you can go urban when we are out there. I think there are still possibilities but its just not, we can’t grow in every area of our city and that is the area that has been the last priority just because of the proximity of that sewer line and going underneath the freeway and a lot of the modeling that I think that the engineering department has already discussed. But we are a long way from serving that area. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 22 of 25 Bird: I don’t know if its three to one or not but I agree with councilman Nary. If we are not one to service it or anything lets get it out of our impact area. Let them bring Boise water in and put them in a good deal and let him be able to turn his investment over and in this economy anything that will help I’m for, the economy. So I’m like Bill if we don’t want to service it and I know that is the trunk line that is the last one to be put out. Were probably 10 to 12 years from having it out there. And we can’t ask some person to sit on the ground that long. We can’t do that so I’m for letting them take it out of the impact area if we can’t service it. Corrie: Okay. With that being sent Clint if we need further discussion we can do it later on. I’ve got 30 minutes more of things here so we can get back together and keep in touch of the quirks and that and let you know how we are doing here. It doesn’t sound good from this point. Boyle: Okay. Thanks. 6.Discussion of ACHD Road Widening Franklin Road Project / ROW Purchase Agreement: Corrie: I would like to with Council’s permission to discuss the ACHD road widening at Franklin Road and the project right of way purchase agreement since that is on the consent agenda. I’d like the council to hear that so if they have any questions after they can pull it off the consent agenda. Elroy. Huff: Mayor and Council I appreciate being able to be here. I have some handouts for you on this project. I met with the consultant with this road widening project. On that top page the blue area is the area that is affected by the road widening project. Primarily on the about middle of the page you can see the big square there that’s the Meridian Chamber of Commerce. That area from just above there where the street goes into Storey Park back down to the corner at first street on that side is the area affected. The proposed area is approximately 17, 300 square feet and it does come into a little ways into the existing park land. And the second page it shows the area of take and the estimated costs involved in that based on eight dollars seventy five cents a square foot. Also met with the consultant on that issue concerning landscape restoration and things along there so we didn’t have anything unfinished when that project went to work so when we were all done it would look good. We are giving up a little bit on page three if you look at the top picture you can see in the right corner right lower corner there is a sidewalk right there by that power pole. That orange or red line above that is really straight above that corner of the sidewalk. Sidewalk will continue down and go right to that red line is back of sidewalk. The red line on the far left is the permanent easement. There is a lot of work to be done there quite a bit of that area is area that was already there in a right of way developed on the right side of that fence as you look at it. The bottom picture basically shows the same thing Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 23 of 25 just from a different angle and the picture on the bottom picture your red mark to the left is back of sidewalk. And the permanent easement is the one on the right. On page four on the top picture it shows on the far right it shows back of sidewalk the tree will be affected it will be taken out. Permanent easement is the orange line or red line in the middle and that blue line on the far left is just a temporary easement for construction and things like that. Then on the picture on the bottom it kind of shows the where the back sidewalk is, there is a little jog in there which will now no longer be there, sidewalk will come straight on through right up there and then I don’t have a picture of the corner but that pole right there with the signal light would be set back a little bit. So there is some area given up there but looking through everything with the landscape requirements we’ll have those everything worked out there where it would look really nice and decide what kind of fencing we will need there for esthetics and safety, those things will be decided. We just haven’t decided as a parks department what kind of fence we will ever put there, we know we need one we just don’t know which one it is going to be yet. So the amount there if you look at that beneath the total is market value is 176,620. Do you have any questions? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: So Elroy just so I’m clear this on the third page the top one the line that is running adjacent to the Chamber of Commerce building that would be a fence line? Huff: The one if you are looking at the picture. Nary: Its not the roadway is it? Huff: No, the roadway is clear out there where the vehicle is out there. Its out in the flat gravel area. Nary: So this would be probably just a fence or something. Huff: If you are looking at that top picture on your left that’s just back of easement that’s all landscape and then the orange or the red mark on your right that points up towards the sidewalk or the power pole is back of sidewalk. Nary: Okay. Huff: The angle just looks weird on that but that’s what it is. Nary: Looking at that I thought they were going to have cars driving right next to the building. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 24 of 25 Huff: But there is a lot of redo there. There’s irrigation lateral that we just took out and moved a little bit. We have a transfer pump station in there and we have made arrangements for that to come out and no longer be there so I don’t have an extra pump and extra power to pay for. Things like that we made those changes. It makes it a lot cleaner then it is now. It will look much better then its ever looked. That part is good and otherwise I guess I like it the way it is at this point. I did run these figures and all the stuff in the books through Public Works and those guys have seen those things and so. Anything else? De Weerd: Looks great. Corrie: Thank you Elroy. Kenny yours comes to 16,026 dollars for your part of the right-of-way by the fire station. Bowers: That’s affirm. Yes Mayor Corrie and City Council members. Where our front sidewalk is at will be 12 to 15 feet north of where it’s at now so they will have to take out one of the trees, some of the grass in the area, some of the sprinkler system. But we thought we built the sidewalk in the right place the first time but then they decided they weren’t going to take as much from the cemetery because they would have to move to many plots over there. So there are coming more on our side. So it won’t affect our ramp or anything out in front of the station. Corrie: Any questions for Kenny? One other question is the attorney has looked at these and so has Public Works, Fire and Parks. So I’ll hear from the city Attorney, do you have anything to say or any problem with this? Nichols: Mr. Mayor members of the Council. The documents appear to be appropriate in terms of the form of the documents for purchasing the right of way. My thing that I’m not an expert in is how much something is worth and it appears that they have used a slightly different calculation on the value of the Fire Department property from the Storey Park site but then Storey Park is on an intersection of two main arterials where the Fire Department is not and I assume that is where the increased value for that land is. So they appear to be okay to me. Corrie: Thank you Bill. Any questions of Council? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: On the other items that we haven’t got to did you want to put them on the end of the Council agenda so we can take at least a short break before we start the meeting? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting March 11, 2003 Page 25 of 25 Corrie: I would prefer that you do that and then at the end of the Council meeting we can come back and finish up those other three so. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Do we need to have the executive session now or at the end of the Council? Corrie: I don’t know. Nary: We can have it at the end. Corrie: We can have it at the end I guess. Okay then we will have the discussion on the Eagle Road improvements, discussion of Blakeslee Associates, fence variance and executive session later. So with that being said I will entertain a motion to adjourn. De Weerd: So moved. McCandless: Second. Corrie: All in favor say aye. Opposed no. All ayes. Motion carried. We will be back here in about two or three minutes. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES MEETING ADJOURNED AT 6:58 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK