HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 07-15
Meridian City Council Meeting July 15, 2003
The Regular Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:05 P.M., on
Tuesday, July 15, 2003, by Mayor Robert Corrie.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, William Nary, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird
and Cherie McCandless
Others Present: Bill Nichols, Brad Watson, Anna Powell, Dean Willis, and Will Berg.
Item 1. Roll Call Attendance:
__X Tammy de Weerd _ X__ Bill Nary
__X Cherie McCandless __X Keith Bird
___X__ Mayor Robert Corrie
Corrie: All right. I will open the Meridian City Council Regular Meeting Agenda on
Tuesday, July 17, 2003, at 7:05 P.M. At this time, we'd like to have the City Clerk have
roll call attendance, please.
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Corrie: All right. Thank you. Item Number 2 is the adoption of the agenda. Council,
any changes, additions, or corrections? We have a letter from Silverleaf Subdivision to
withdraw their appeal, their request for annexation, Preliminary Plat, and the Variance of
the block length. That will not be heard tonight. Item Number 10, Bridgetower Crossing
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No. 4 has been asked to be tabled until July the 22 and there has been a request to
have Number 17 moved up to Item Number 11 and that's all I have at this point.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Just a quick announcement under department reports.
Corrie: Oh. I'm sorry. Yes. Yes. Under department, reports there will be a report on
the Fire Department grant. That one -- yes. Any other changes? Okay. Hearing none,
I would entertain a motion for the adoption of the agenda as discussed.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we adopt the agenda as amended.
Bird: Second.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 2 of 47
Corrie: All right. The motion to adopt the agenda as amended has been seconded.
Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye.
Opposed no. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 3. Consent Agenda:
A. July 1, 2003
Approve minutes of City Council Regular Meeting:
B. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: TCU
03-001
Request for a Transfer of Conditional Use Permit for a
All About Kids
Child Care Center in an R-8 zone for by Zejna
Garibovic and Kathy Sokoli – 1155 East Chateau Drive:
C. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: PP 03-
006
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 17 building lots and 2
Devon Park
other lots on 10.17 acres in C-N and R-40 zones for
No. 2
by Fairview Lakes, LLC – 824 East Fairview Avenue:
D. First Addendum to Development Agreement: MI 02-001
Request to Approve Amendment to Development Agreement with
John and Alberta Sonntag
for the Meridian Hampton Center
Eagle Road, LLC
Development – new owners :
E. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: MI 03-
001
Request to modify approved Final Plat lot lines, move
approved hotel and office locations, reduce hotel size to 80 rooms
Fallon Greens Subdivision
and increase office building area for
(fka Hampton Inn Subdivision)
by Pinnacle Engineers, Inc. –
southwest corner of South Allen Street and Gentry Way:
F. Amended Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for
Approval: CUP 01-044
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for
one 92 room hotel, one single story office building and one two
Hampton Inn Hotel
story office building in a C-G zone for by
Meridian Hampton Center LLC – southwest corner of Allen Street
and Gentry Way:
G. Amended Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for
Approval: PFP 01-010
Request for Preliminary/Final Plat approval
Hampton Inn
for 3 building lots on 4.10 acres in a C-G zone for
Subdivision
by Pinnacle Engineers, Inc. – southwest corner of
Allen Street and Gentry Way:
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 3 of 47
H. Approve Recommendation of Parks & Recreation Commission
for Naming Park next to Boys and Girls Club – Centennial
Park:
I. Agreement for Services for Park next to Boys and Girls Club –
Good Earth Landscape:
Corrie: Item Number 3 is the Consent Agenda.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we approve the Consent Agenda and authorize the Mayor to sign
and Clerk attest on all appropriate papers.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to approve all the Items A through
I and -- by the motion. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Okay. All ayes. Motion to approve is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 4. Department Reports:
1. Fire Safe House Grant – Tammy de Weerd.
Corrie: Item Number 4 is department reports. Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor, I just wanted to let Council know that the safe house is
progressing along very nicely. That is our fire prevention. We applied for a grant for
some safe house equipment and just heard word that we received it, it's for 29,420
dollars, and that should help equip the safe house with items that they need for their fire
prevention material. Just a special note that Butch Otter's office did help us secure a
contact over in Seattle that helped review the grants that we wrote and gave some good
constructive feedback, so I think that's why we were successful this time, so, our
appreciation to his office as well.
Corrie: Good. Any other department reports? Okay. Thank you.
Item 5. (Items Moved from Consent Agenda)
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 4 of 47
Corrie: Item Number 17 has been moved to Item Number 10 -- or 11. Excuse me.
Between 11 and 10. Let's get that right. I will open the Public Hearing on the request
for a Conditional Use Permit for approval for a dance studio use in an I-L zone at 269
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East 5 Avenue for Sandy's Dancework’s by Sandy's Dancework’s, LLC, 269 East 5
Avenue. We will have the staff report first.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, just a second. You caught me off guard. I
didn't know you were going to --
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Just a moment.
Item 6. Tabled from April 15, 2003: AP 03-001
Request to Appeal Meridian
Silverleaf Subdivision
Planning and Zoning Commission’s Denial of
Preliminary Plat by Shawn Nickel and Crestline Development, LLC – 2683
West Chinden Boulevard:
Item 7. Continued Public Hearing from April 15, 2003: AZ 02-030
Request
for annexation and zoning of 38.65 acres from RUT to R-4 zones for
Silverleaf Subdivision
proposed by Crestline Development, LLC – 2683
West Chinden Boulevard:
Item 8. Continued Public Hearing from April 15, 2003: PP 02-031
Request
for Preliminary Plat approval of 72 building lots and 8 other lots on 38.65
Silverleaf Subdivision
acres in a proposed R-4 zone for proposed by
Crestline Development, LLC – 2683 West Chinden Boulevard:
Item 9. Continued Public Hearing from April 15, 2003: VAR 03-006
Request
for a Variance to exceed 1,000 foot maximum block length and Variance
Silverleaf Subdivision
to open space requirement for by Crestline
Development – 2683 West Chinden Boulevard:
Nary: While we are waiting, Mr. Mayor, maybe we could formally accept the withdrawal
on Items 6, 7, 8 and 9 that has been requested by the applicant of Silverleaf Subdivision
to withdraw their appeal, as well as their request for annexation, Preliminary Plat, and
Variance. I don't know that we need a motion for that. I think just -- I guess we move to
accept their withdrawal of all those four applications.
Bird: We also need a motion to move -- to continue that application --
Nary: Yes. I will do that one next. I just thought while Mrs. Powell was getting ready.
Corrie: Okay. Yes.
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July 15, 2003
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Nary: So, anyway, being that, I move that we would accept the withdrawal of Item 6, 7,
8 and 9 for Silverleaf Subdivision at the applicant's request.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Any other discussion on the motion? Okay. Hearing none, all those in
favor say aye. Opposed no. Okay.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 10. FP 03-040
Request for Final Plat approval of 77 building lots and 5 other
Bridgetower Crossing No. 4
lots on 26.84 acres in an R-4 (PD) zone for
by Primeland Development, LLP and Young Lands – northeast corner of
West McMillan Road and North Ten Mile Road:
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I would move that we continue -- or table Item FP 03-040, the request for Final
Plat approval for Bridgetower Crossing No. 4 to our July 22, 2003, meeting and, again,
at the applicant's request.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: I believe it was at our staff request.
Nary: At our staff request. I'm sorry.
Bird: Yes.
Nary: And it appears that Bridgetower Crossing is in agreement with that.
Bird: Yes. Was in agreement.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to table Item Number 10 until the July
nd
22 Meeting. Any further discussion? All those in favor say aye. Opposed no? Motion
carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Bill, that –
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July 15, 2003
Page 6 of 47
Item 17. Public Hearing: CUP 03-027
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for
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approval for dance studio use in an I-L zone at 269 East 5 Avenue for
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Sandy’s Dancework’s
by Sandy’s Dancework’s, LLC – 269 East 5
Avenue:
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this is a request for a Conditional Use
Permit for a dance studio. Our ordinance does not specifically define a dance studio, it
does say school, comma, private commercial, and that would require a Conditional Use
in this zone. This is an industrial zone. The purple parcel as shown on Franklin Road,
just to orient you, that is the fire station. It is a developed property. The aerial shows
that it's still vacant, but there is presently a building and this is just moving in that
building, no tenant -- or I mean no exterior improvements, no change in the parking
layout, this is strictly to allow the use within the industrial zone. There were -- at the
Planning and Zoning Commission hearing there was one person that submitted a letter
in opposition, largely under the -- because it is a non-industrial use within an industrial
zone. The other testimony at the -- or discussion at the Planning and Zoning
Commission considered off-street parking availability, parking arrangements, and safety
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of children, hours of operation, and the amount and type of traffic on East 5 Avenue.
The Planning and Zoning Commission did feel that the applicant adequately addressed
all these issues and they felt it was appropriate to have the dance studio at this location.
It does come forward to you with a recommendation for approval from the Planning and
Zoning Commission. With that, I will sit for questions.
Corrie: Any questions of Anna?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening or his representative anyway? Raise
your right hand, please. Is the testimony you're about to give to the Council the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
McKinniss: It is.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. State your name and address, please.
McKinniss: Michael J. McKinniss, 2345 West Valli-Hi Road, Eagle, Idaho. I am the
representative for Sandy at Sandy's Dancework’s. She is actually working for a living
tonight, she is teaching as we speak. She is -- I'm employed with a leasing agent, J.L.
Boyd Company. We were the ones that -- with Bob Albrecht here, who is the property
owner, put together this proposal for Sandy's Dancework’s. She is currently over in the
Albertson's shopping center and wishes to increase her space to be able to spread out
a little bit. We have been able to do that with the address here with a floor plan, two
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units here on 5 Street, and Sandy is quite anxious to get this done and as we -- as
staff has said, we went through all of the issues, I think, in terms of parking and safety.
The way Sandy runs her operation is she has an agreement with each parent that
addresses the safety issues. She does not allow children to run around unescorted
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July 15, 2003
Page 7 of 47
outside, so that doesn't -- that doesn't happen. The way we have designed this is we
have that center area on the right is actually an area for congregation, as well as in the
lobby and the showroom, so that the children don't have to go outside. She teaches
both children and adults all the way through and generally confines her teaching to early
morning and evening classes, so during the middle of the day, generally, when business
hours -- when there is other folks around, there isn't anybody in her studio. I think the
rest of this was pretty adequately addressed at Planning and Zoning. I would ask for
any questions if you have any.
Corrie: Any questions of Mike?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I noted in the minutes that they talked a lot about the parking like you're talking
about, but did they place any types of restrictions on the hours or -- because I didn't see
that, or was it just a discussion because of the comfort level of Sandy's, the way she
operates the business? I didn't see any rules or any type of --
McKinniss: No. The main issue, I think, was based on the fact we have an average
number of people per class, do we have enough parking spaces to allow for everybody
in the building to utilize the facility, not only that facility, but the other facilities and the
answer was, yes, we do and that was basically -- there weren't any real rules, I don't
think, that came out of that. There is some on street parking available there, but we
really don't think there is much need for it, considering that she's early morning and,
then, after 4:30 in the afternoon.
Powell: Mr. Mayor and Council Member Nary, I think a portion of the confusion was that
when staff wrote the staff report they didn't know that this was the last use in the
building that would fill it up. Originally, when it was approved it was thought that there
would be upward -- up to nine tenants, but the tenants have taken larger spaces than
they originally anticipated. This does fill up the building and I think at that point was
when the Planning and Zoning Commission was satisfied that there was adequate
parking during the day and certainly during the evening
McKinniss: Yes. That's correct. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Any other questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Thank you, Mike.
McKinniss: Thank you.
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July 15, 2003
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Corrie: Is there anyone else from the public who would like to issue testimony? Okay.
Thank you. Council, any discussion on the record in the Public Hearing?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Just to make one comment. I appreciate the comment that -- the letter that was
sent in about safety, but we do have the Meridian Academy of Gymnastics that's in an
industrial site as well and she operates very safely and I don't think there has ever been
a problem, so I know that this type of operation can do just fine.
Corrie: Okay.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Bird: I second it.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to close the Public Hearing on
Item Number 17, CUP request, 03-027, Sandy's Dancework’s. Any other discussion?
All in favor say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried. Public Hearing is now
closed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Discussion or motion?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we approve CUP 03-027 request for a Conditional Use Permit
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for the approval for a dance studio use in an I-L zone at 269 East 5 Avenue for
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Sandy's Dancework’s by Sandy's Dancework’s, LLC, at 269 East 5 Avenue in
Meridian. To incorporate the recommendation from Planning and Zoning and staff's
report and for the attorney to draw up the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and
Decision Order.
De Weerd: Second.
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July 15, 2003
Page 9 of 47
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded for the approval of the request for
a Conditional Use Permit. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr.
Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Request for Conditional Use Permit for Sandy's
Dancework’s is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 11. Continued Public Hearing from June 24, 2003: AZ 03-002
Request
for annexation and zoning of 19.79 acres from RUT to C-G zones for
Callister Development
by Dave Callister – southwest corner of West
Overland Road and South Stoddard Road:
Item 12. Continued Public Hearing from June 24, 2003: CUP 03-001
Request
for a Conditional Use Permit for a contractor’s yard for an excavation
Callister
company and mini-storage facilities on 5.91 acres for
Development
by Dave Callister – southwest corner of West Overland
Road and South Stoddard Road:
Item 13. Continued Public Hearing from June 24, 2003: CPA 03-001
Request
for a Comprehensive Plan Amendment to change approximately 12.25
Callister
acres of the site from mixed-use-neighborhood to commercial for
Development
by Dave Callister – southwest corner of West Overland
Road and South Stoddard Road:
Corrie: Now, Item Numbers 11 and 12 and 13, with the Council's approval, we will open
the Continued Public Hearing on the request for annexation and zoning of Callister
Development, also the request for a Conditional Use Permit for Callister Development.
The request for a Comprehensive Plan amendment on Callister Development and open
the Public Hearing on all three and take testimony on all three at one time. If there are
no objections of the Council, I will invite staff's comments first.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, as you recall, we did have the -- begin the
discussion on this project. It is located at an interesting transition in the fact that -- or
interesting location in the fact that it transitions from a fairly high-end residential
development to some high-end commercial/industrial development to the north of
Overland Road there -- or north on Overland Road. It is kind of a transition property
and you did discuss the Comprehensive Plan amendment and the appropriateness of
that and perhaps what was appropriate next to the substation, the Idaho Power
substation, so -- then, you asked the applicant to address perhaps making the site look
better and they have come back with some proposals to -- for fencing and berming that
-- I think that they would be better off to present to you, so I will leave it at that.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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Corrie: Okay. Council, any questions of staff? Okay. Is the representative or the
applicant here this evening?
McKinnon: Thank you.
Corrie: Is the testimony you're about to give the truth whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
McKinnon: It is.
Corrie: Thank you, David. Name and address.
McKinnon: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Dave McKinnon
representing Pinnacle Engineering, address 12552 West Executive Drive, here
representing Dave Callister for this project. As you know from our previous discussion,
this is a project that's been ongoing for close to seven, eight months now. The reason
you haven't heard it as often is because we were waiting for some time to move this
forward with the North Meridian Area Plan. At this point, there were just a couple items
that Anna mentioned that needed to be addressed and I assume you all have a letter
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dated July 11 from Clint Boyle of Landmark Engineering detailing our outline for the
fencing proposal, which is as follows. Along Stoddard Road we do have Bear Creek
Subdivision and we had a lot of discussion at the last meeting about how Bear Creek
Subdivision had a vinyl fence, rather than a chain link fence with slats, as we originally
proposed. Now, it's gotten purple. We propose now, rather than having a chain link
fence, we have gotten together with Chuck Elliott of Butte Fence, who did the fencing
for Bear Creek Subdivision and so we proposed to do the exact same type of vinyl
fence as Bear Creek has done for their subdivision. Rather than driving down the road
and seeing a direct transition from chain link to vinyl on one side of the road, that we will
have a seamless vinyl on both sides of the road, very similar to what Bear Creek did,
with a minimum of 20 feet of landscaping per the landscape code. Adjacent to Overland
Road, as you will remember, is about 6.93 acres of property that's not to be developed
at this time, it would be Phase 3 of this project, and we are not proposing any -- okay.
We are not proposing any development at this time, but we have proposed a chain link
fence with slats along this northern boundary of Phase 2 of the subdivision. The reason
for that, rather than vinyl along that area, is we had a contractor's storage yard in there
and, as you know, vinyl is very prone to breaking and it can be run over very easy and
we are dealing with a contractor's storage yard that has large vehicles in there. To
provide a buffer for Overland Road, our applicant has got together with us and we have
decided that a three-foot tall buffer with evergreen trees spaced close to 35 feet on
center with a chain link fence with slats would provide a good buffer from Overland
Road. Overland Road is approximately 540 feet away from this fence line and so you
would have a good visual interference with that type of contractor's storage yard off of
Overland Road. Actually, on this map I guess it would be directly to the east of this
project, as Anna pointed out, Bear Creek is located adjacent to the storage units.
However, on the western -- I guess it would be the northwestern portion of the site, it's a
subdivision that's actually consisting of old neighborhood homes and it has been
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July 15, 2003
Page 11 of 47
approved for a commercial use, but right now those uses are limited, because there is
no sewer available to the site and so there is no development on the other side of the
road. Opposite of Overland Road there is a commercial subdivision that's there, which
is also limited to the types of uses based on the amount of sewage that's available. We
have taken a project that the Comprehensive Plan provided mixed use. In the future
that 6.9 acres can be developed in a commercial way and we are taking the part that's
adjacent right now to an electrical storage -- electrical substation and creating a use for
that that can coexist with that. In addition to the proposal, the only other item that I
remember a great deal of discussion from at the last meeting was a request for a waiver
of tiling the Hardin Drain and it's not our applicant's intent to tile the Hardin Drain,
because it's a large open ditch and there would be no access to that from Stoddard
Road with the fence going across that. At this time I would ask if you have any
questions and end my presentation.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Dave, what is the topography on that? You know, if it was a flat -- a flat
area, I think the berming and the fencing -- and I appreciate that they have come back
and offered those things, but the topography has it so that is really sloped. That
contractor's yard is going to be in full view -- you cannot fence off that site and I guess I
only noticed that when I was driving my kids to Roaring Springs today. Sorry. I'm not
supposed to say that, am I? You know, the topography is just really to where those
houses -- it doesn't matter how tall your fence is or -- you know. I guess the concern of
what it would look like from Overland was lessened after I went out there, but coming
from Stoddard and going up and looking on -- where you're proposing that site. That
contractor's yard is -- no matter how you dress it up from the road it's going to be seen.
McKinnon: Mr. Mayor and Council Member de Weerd, is the question of the visibility of
the site from Stoddard or from Overland?
De Weerd: From Stoddard.
McKinnon: From Stoddard.
De Weerd: From the residential area. I guess last time we heard this, the concern was
that is a nice residential area across the street there and what are they going to be
looking at. I don't think I have so much a problem with the storage units -- that
contractor's yard, there is not any way you can make one of those look nice and it is
going to be an eye sore and when this application is coming in asking for a change to
our Comprehensive Plan, which had it as mixed use, that's pretty drastic change to a
contractor's yard. I guess that's my only point. Even though they have tried to fix it so
it's visually more esthetically pleasing, there is just no way you're going to make that
contractor's yard visually pleasing and a good neighbor to a good residential area.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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McKinnon: Thank you. Anna, could you go back to the Site Plan? Thanks, if I could
ask a follow-up question? Mr. Mayor and Council Member de Weerd. Bear Creek
Subdivision -- it's point is right here, and, then, we run into the Queenland Acres
Subdivision with the existing single-family homes that are, you know, pre-70s homes.
Your sight from Bear Creek looking this way would be obscured by a vinyl fence that
runs along Stoddard and, then, have a building directly in front of the storage yard.
Vehicles traveling northbound on Stoddard would have storage units, 20-foot of
landscaping, plus a vinyl fence that matches Bear Creek as they go forward and there
would be, considerably blocked by that fence and landscaping, in addition to the
building, so is the concern coming from Stoddard Road southbound?
De Weerd: No. It's more if you're south of this property and you're looking north, those
storage units are not going to be tall enough to cover what you have in that contractor's
yard, because of the slope that the contractor's yard is going to be on, and I guess that
was my question on the topography. When you look at this as a site for these things,
it's just too difficult to cover. What you would have in that contractor's yard from view,
because of the slope of that piece of property, and it slopes -- that slope faces that
whole residential area, as well as the residences on the bench above that. That's what
they are going to be seeing. I guess at our last meeting -- and I would have brought it
up there, but I -- none of the maps that we have seen really showed the topography and
what kind of slopes that you were recommending that to be built on.
McKinnon: Mr. Mayor and Council Member de Weerd, I can go back and see if we
have some topography maps. I know that we have one person here tonight to testify
against and that during that testimony I can see if we have some topography maps for
that, to see if the top was shot and if I have a copy of that and I could present the
topography to you at this time. My recollection of the site, having been out on site visits,
is -- Anna, could you go back to those -- the top photos of the site? There was a
relatively flat piece of ground that runs away from Overland Road and from Stoddard.
De Weerd: It is until about the piece where you're suggesting the contractor's yard
would be, then, it tips.
McKinnon: I'll look into that and I'll have an answer for you.
De Weerd: Okay.
Corrie: How much trouble would it be to take the slope out and make it leveler lowered?
McKinnon: It would just be something that would have to be done if that was a
requirement of the Council to bring the slope down and direction from Council as to how
much the slope would have to be brought down would be much appreciated.
Bird: I think it's going to be better to fill it up, not -- bring in a lot fill dirt.
Corrie: Is it?
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July 15, 2003
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Bird: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. All right. Okay.
McKinnon: Any other questions?
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, David. Is there anyone else that would like to testify tonight?
Raise your right hand, please. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Schultz: It is.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Schultz: My name is Matt Schultz at 660 East Franklin. I'm here on behalf of three
parties, really. I'm here on behalf of Bear Creek, LLC, the project manager of the
development. I have driven by the site probably every day for the last two and a half
years since we started it down Stoddard. I'm also here on behalf of the homeowners
association, which we just last week handed over to the homeowners and in the
meantime we were running it and also as a future homeowner out in Bear Creek and I'd
like to start by saying I do agree with the planning director that this is a -- is a
challenging location in terms of its transitional nature close to residential, as well as the
industrial up off of north of Overland Road. I couldn't agree with -- anymore with
Councilwoman de Weerd's comments concerning the topography out here as well, in
that it definitely is very topographically challenged, I guess you would say, from their
standpoint, to have to try to shield -- you know, shield this thing. I do commend them on
making a valiant effort, but to me it's kind of a bad location. I wish, you know, that the
power station never went there, but it is, and, like I said, two wrongs don't make a right
here in this location. I don't think that this is the right location for it. The storage yard, in
my opinion, even the mini storage -- I kind of envisioned more a little bit nicer
commercial, maybe some office complexes. I don't know. If I was going to have mini
storage on this site I would probably put it up towards Overland myself, but that's just
us. I represent a very -- very nice neighborhood that we take very great pride to
beautify over the last few years and I think this would be kind of a slap in the face to the
residents we have out there. Like I said, the power station was -- you know, we kind of
-- they still haven't even landscaped that. You know, they are just now getting around to
doing that and rather -- they will have to explain that to the residents, now, this one is
going to -- maybe it will get approved, maybe it won't. We would ask that you not
approve it until they come back with something more compatible to the neighborhood.
Whatever does come back or moves on, we would ask that they tile the Hardin Drain.
All the developers have to tile. I don't see why they should have to get away with it.
They are a public safety hazard and I believe open drains and things like that -- we tiled
a significant amount across Bear Creek and I think they should have to tile it and if they
had to re-slope the land to accommodate, they would definitely be filling into that drain
and they would probably have to tile it anyway, so, you know, I guess that kind of covers
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 14 of 47
my point, that we don't feel that this drastic a revision of the master plan is warranted for
this use. If they were bringing something very vice and good, yes, sure, we can do
something different than the master plan, but in this case I don't think it's the right
reason to go change the master plan and with that I will stand for any questions.
Corrie: Okay. Any questions?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Schultz, we had a request the last time -- there hadn't been a lot of response
from Bear Creek at the Planning and Zoning level. Why is that?
Schultz: You know. I'm probably to blame for that. One of the reasons, like I stated
earlier, is the homeowners association isn't fully up and running yet. I saw in the paper
-- I have been real busy lately on some other stuff. I dropped the ball in showing up
here and I do apologize for being so late in the game and showing up here, but I figured
it's better late than never.
Nary: Sure.
Schultz: But the homeowners just aren't organized yet, but I think if they knew what
was going in, if they read the paper more and knew how they could participate, they
would be here and it was kind of a last second thing for me to show up here tonight and
to make this presentation, so I do appreciate your time and, hopefully, you take my
comments into consideration. Thank you.
Nary: Thank you.
Corrie: Okay. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you, Matt. Is there anyone else
from the public that would like to issue testimony? Okay. Hearing none, the developer
has -- representative has -- any comments?
McKinnon: Thank you. Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, again, David McKinnon
representing the applicant tonight at this meeting. I'm going to address a few comments
that were made by Matt Schultz concerning this project tonight. I'd first like to address
the issue of, you know, how many people from Bear Creek have actually been here to
testify and notices were sent out in accordance with the State Code. Those people that
own those lots adjacent to Bear Creek have the opportunity and still have the
opportunity to testify -- I mean respond to the subdivision, so the noticing was done and
there has been some outreach to those people for this type of project. The second
point I would like to address would be the tiling of the ditch. Anna, could you go back to
the Site Plan, please? As we discussed at the previous meeting, the fence that we are
proposing, vinyl fence, would run the full length of Stoddard for the entire project, so
there would be no access to the Hardin Drain, in fact, the Hardin Drain would be
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 15 of 47
shielded from view from those people and there is a fence that surrounds the Idaho
Power substation as well, so there is no public access to the Hardin Drain, so because
there would be no public access to the drain, there doesn't seem to be any significant
reason to completely enclose the drain if one does not need to be enclosed. That was
very representative of the discussion that we had a few weeks ago on this project. In
regards to the topography of this site, you know, some grading can be done to the site.
I did have an opportunity to go back and look through the notes from this project initially
and it appears that there is a small rise in that area and if that needs to be knocked
down, it can be knocked down. In addition to that, we have proposed a six-foot fence.
The maximum in the C-G zone for fencing height would be an eight-foot tall fence. An
eight-foot tall fence would provide an additional amount of buffering for this project
along the side of the road. The fact that we are talking again about the Comprehensive
Plan amendment and the fact that it shouldn't change, there has been some changes to
the site. The initial work on the Comprehensive Plan initially showed the entire site, not
just the small portion of the site that we are currently dealing with tonight, excluding the
Hardin Drain, as originally proposed on the Comprehensive Plan, the entire site was
shown as quasi-public and so there were some changes. If it were realized that the
power substation was not going to use the entire site for development so, there has to
be some type of use that would be compatible or transitionary to the power substation.
You're typically not going to place a lot of residential homes adjacent to a subdivision.
In addition to that, you typically would not want a large number of people adjacent to
that and adjacent to an open ditch. We have created a use that's transitionary in nature
with the storage units to have a substation that's not going to have a great deal of
vehicular access to that and not a great deal of people. Provides a service to those
people that live in Bear Creek by providing them with storage in a close location to the
subdivision that's already under construction. Again, back to the contractor storage
yard. The contractor storage yard is something that is needed in this area. There is a
lot of construction that's going on in the area and the contractor is in need of a storage
area for his work that is close to the freeway, which this is, and has access to a major
arterial, which is Overland. It's centrally located in the valley where you can get to
Nampa, you can get to Boise City, you can run from Canyon county to Ada County
rapidly from this location. The buffer -- as you requested, we provided an alternative, an
additional alternative is something that we would consider. This is a project that we
would like to see approved tonight and with that I would ask if you have any additional
questions and end my testimony.
Corrie: Any other questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you.
McKinnon: Thank you.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 16 of 47
Corrie: Well, anything that you would like to hear on the continued Public Hearing? Do
you want to have the applicant go back and give you an answer about what you were
thinking about, Mrs. de Weerd, or what's your pleasure?
De Weerd: No.
Corrie: Okay. Is there any other discussion?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Okay. I will entertain a motion to close the continued Public Hearing on item --
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Before we close the Public Hearing, I just had a comment -- I'm not sure whether
or not -- it might have the applicant respond more, but, you know, I -- maybe Mr.
McKinnon can come back on this, but this contractor yard we have talked about a little
bit and I guess I'm really unclear as to the volume. When we talked about it the last
time, it made it sound like, although a busy operation, a fairly small one. Now tonight
what I heard, which I don't think I heard the last time, was this is a contractor yard that's
going to serve from Boise to Nampa, as well as the Meridian area. That sounds like a
lot more intensive use than I guess I was thinking this was going to be. Do you know
what kind of level of use this is going to be?
McKinnon: Mr. Nary, it's not a large site, it's not an enormous site, but when you're
dealing with contractors, typically contractors don't set their sites on just one location
and move from location to location to location and move their central site. This would
serve as his central site for that and if he has a job in another location, he can go and
have easy freeway access and central valley access from this location. It's not that this
would be a transfer station for a number of different storage -- or contractor companies,
this is a personal one for his business.
Nary: Thank you.
Corrie: Any other questions of the applicant? Okay. I will entertain a motion, then, for
the closing of the continued Public Hearing, if it so be Council's wish.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Nary: Second.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 17 of 47
Corrie: Okay. Motion made and seconded to close the Public Hearing on Items 11, 12,
and 13. Any other discussion? All those in favor aye. Proposed no? All ayes. Motion
carried. Public Hearing is hereby closed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: Further discussion?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess seeing the topography of that site I have even more concern than I
did when it was just the fence and the view from Overland Road. The applicant has
tried to address the concerns that were brought up at the last meeting, but I don't think
you can address the visual issues that are posed by the topography. It just makes
staff's reservations even more clear to me on the use and what they are proposing and
why is it that we would change our Comprehensive Plan to accommodate this type of
development. At this point I can't support it, in light of -- it's not designated for this use,
it's -- I think Councilman Nary had raised the comment at our last meeting that just
because it's convenient and it's the only thing that really came to mind, doesn't mean it's
a good use for this piece of property. I know it is a challenge, it will be a challenge, but
a contractor's yard, it just does not mix by a residential subdivision, especially of the
size of Bear Creek Subdivision and that's only my opinion, but that is the reservations
that I have.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Any other discussion?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Schultz raised a good point that I was trying to articulate and I think he really
captured what I think is really important, in that when we are going to amend our
Comprehensive Plan that's our imagineering document of what we think the city can be,
what we would like it to be, what we think -- at the time we put it together and passed it,
what we think is likely to be the type of growth and development and business
opportunities that are going to be there. To change it, I guess for me I have to think that
we are going to get something better than I imagined it would be and this isn't it. This
isn't better than I thought it would be when we approved the Comprehensive Plan. I
think the attempt by the applicant to transition with a storage unit, it's pretty good, I think
that probably is a pretty good use right there. I think there is some value to the
residences that are both currently there and will be there in the future to have that type
of use there. I'm a little concerned about the Hardin Drain, but I think they have also
addressed that as well and I don't necessarily think just because a residential
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 18 of 47
subdivision across the street had to tile it, that they have to tile this one if they find other
ways to address it and I think they have done that, but this contractor's yard, I'm sorry,
just didn't sell me at all. I just -- that sounds like we took a pretty nice area and decided
let's put a dump right there in the middle of it, because it's just not going to work. I don't
think it fits the area, I don't think it's a good reason to amend our Comprehensive Plan
to put it there and I don't mean to be very negative about it, I just don't think that's a
good area to put it. The one we have approved in the last year and a half is in an
industrial area that is away from homes, it is near the railroad right of way, it really is
built for -- it really is set for that type of area, but this isn't. I mean this is a very busy
street it's on a residential -- or near a large residential subdivision and also near a very
large attraction to the city right up the street. It just doesn't fit this site at all. It's not a
transition, it's not an enhancement to this area, and I just can't see a reason to amend
our Comprehensive Plan to accommodate something to me that just doesn't fit there at
all.
Corrie: Thank you, Mr. Nary. Any other comments? Hearing none, we will entertain a
motion on Item Number 11, request for annexation and zoning first.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I'm wondering from Mr. Nichols, does the order matter? Should we do the
Comprehensive Plan amendment first? I know they are not on the agenda like that, but
-
Bird: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I think the Comprehensive Plan amendment
issue should be addressed first and, then, the annexation and zoning and, then, the
Conditional Use Permit. I mean that's -- I don't think there is any case law that tells us
one over the other -- an annexation and zoning which is not compatible with the
Comprehensive Plan is still enforceable, but just to be clear, if you're going to approve it
or deny it, you should address the Comp Plan amendment issue first.
Corrie: Okay. If it meets with the Council, we will take up Item Number 13 first, a
request for a Comprehensive Plan amendment to change approximately 12.25 acres of
the site from mixed use neighborhood to commercial for Callister Development.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess I'll see where we go from here. I guess I would move to deny CPA 03-
001, the request for a Comprehensive Plan amendment to change approximately 12.25
acres of the site located at the southwest corner of West Overland Road and South
Stoddard Road from a mixed use neighborhood to commercial for Callister
Development by Dave Callister, to incorporate comments of the Council this evening, as
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 19 of 47
well as in looking at our staff report, I guess I'm unclear a little bit as to what particular
findings, Mr. Nichols, you think would be necessary for that. I don't see a reference in
the report as to what we have to find like we would in a Variance or a CUP. That's why
you're getting the big money over there.
Nichols: We'll see if you get a second to that.
Nary: I guess I would move that we deny it based upon the incompatibility of the
requested amendment to the surrounding area and that the proposed use for the
amendment is, again, also not compatible, like in a rezone. I think we have to find that
as well.
De Weerd: Second.
Corrie: All right. Then, a motion has been made and seconded. Comments?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Attorney.
Nichols: Members of the Council, the findings would -- are not spelled out in the
ordinance, but I think the issue is, is it compatible with what your vision is for Meridian
and so part of your decision can be based upon the fact that you see no need to change
what was adopted a year ago.
Nary: Then, I guess I would include as part of the motion that it is not reflective of the
vision that was thought of for that particular area and at this particular time, change is
unnecessary.
De Weerd: Second agrees.
Nary: And, then, for Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law, Decision and Order.
Corrie: Okay. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion for denial is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 20 of 47
Nary: If we could go back to Item 11, I would move the denial of AZ 03-002, request for
annexation and zoning of 19.79 acres from RUT to C-G zones for Callister Development
by Dave Callister at the southwest corner of West Overload Road and South Stoddard
Road. To incorporate the comments of Council and staff this evening in the Public
Hearing, as well as all other staff comments, including the fact that the property would
not -- that the zone requested -- or the use requested would not be compatible with the
zone as currently proposed in the particular property. Because the Comprehensive
Plan amendment was denied, this particular zone that's being requested would not be
approved and it's not compatible for annexation at this time.
De Weerd: Second.
Nary: And for Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order. We
need a short hand for that.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded for denial. Any further
discussion? Roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion for denial is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: On Item 12 I would move to deny CUP 03-001, request for a Conditional Use
Permit for a contractor's yard for an excavation company and mini storage facility on
5.91 acres for Callister Development by Dave Callister at the southwest corner of West
Overland Road and South Stoddard Road. To include staff comments, including the
property was not annexed into the city at this time and for counsel to prepare Findings
of Facts and Conclusions of Law, Decision and Order.
De Weerd: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded for denial. Any further discussion?
Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: All ayes. Denial is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 21 of 47
Item 14. Continued Public Hearing from July 8, 2003: AZ 03-008
Request for
annexation and zoning of 34.52 acres from RUT to R-8 zones for
Birchstone Creek Subdivision
proposed by Centennial Development,
LLC – northwest corner of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road:
Item 15. Continued Public Hearing from July 8, 2003: PP 03-008
Request for
Preliminary Plat approval of 89 building lots and 7 other lots on 34.52
Birchstone Creek
acres in a proposed R-8 zone for proposed
Subdivision
by Centennial Development, LLC – northwest corner of West
Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road:
Item 16. Continued Public Hearing from July 8, 2003: VAR 03-013
Request
for a Variance to Meridian City Code 12-4-5 requiring blocks to be not less
Birchstone
than 400 feet and not more than 1,000 feet in length for
Creek Subdivision
by Centennial Development, LLC – northwest corner
of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road:
Corrie: Next is Items 14, 15, and 16, which works with Birchstone Creek Subdivision.
Item Number 14 is a request for annexation and zoning of 34.52 acres from an RUT to
an R-8 zone for proposed Birchstone Creek Subdivision by Centennial Development,
LLC, northwest corner of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road. Item Number
15 is a Continued Public Hearing on a request Preliminary Plat approval of 89 building
lots and seven other lots on 34.52 acres in a proposed R-8 zone for the proposed
Birchstone Creek Subdivision. Item Number 16 is a Continued Public Hearing on a
Variance request to Meridian City Code 12-4-5, requiring blocks to be not less than 400
feet and not more than 1,000 feet in length for Birchstone Creek Subdivision. With no
objections from the Council, we will have all the testimony on all three items and we will
invite staff to comment first.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, as you -- as we noted before in our
discussion, this is at the corner of Ustick and Black Cat. It is kind of the first
development to go on in this section. As you can see, there are not many small lots
surrounding it. Almost the entirety of the conversation last time was regarding the
required open space and the relationship of the subdivision and the school on that
property. The applicant has come back to you with a revised Site Plan. I'll point out just
a couple of the differences. They did flop the cul-de-sac and it is shown as a full road
right of way in this location now. It's a little hard to see, but this area has been slightly
modified and that path still comes off of the end of the cul-de-sac, and it's just been
slightly relocated. This area, which is the area that will remain in permanent park for the
subdivision and under their ownership, has been enlarged. Then, a new lot back here
has been shown and this would be the area that the homeowners association and/or
developer would maintain as a grassy area until such time that the school developed
the property and, then, that area would, then, come under the ownership of the school
district. The applicant I believe at the last hearing was able to articulate most of these
things to you, but you wanted to see a Site Plan, so that you could be assured of these
things and, then, that's what they have done and I will answer any questions.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 22 of 47
Corrie: All right. Thank you, Anna. Questions of staff?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Anna, did they change, then, the number of buildable lots?
Powell: No, they did not. I think they were able to shorten up the -- they were able to
skinny up these lots a little bit and get a little more efficient as it came around this corner
and so they were able to maintain the number of lots through there and still open that
up.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: And maybe this is the applicant's question, but on that piece that will eventually
become the school ground, that extra piece we talked about, is that going to be fenced
until that -- until it becomes the school property? Is that --
Powell: That was my understanding and the applicant is nodding his head in the
affirmative.
Nary: Okay. I assumed that, but I just wanted to make sure that was the case, so --
thank you.
Corrie: Thank you, Anna. Any other questions? Okay. Is the representative here this
evening or the applicant? Is the testimony you are about to give the Council the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Amar: It is.
Corrie: Thank you. Name and address, please.
Amar: Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Council Members. My name is Kevin Amar at 114
East Idaho, Suite 230. We will be brief, as I think we went over most of this project a
week ago. We are before you this evening and hopefully you got the letter -- correct.
Trying to articulate to some extent what we did do. This project, from discussions a
week ago, centered around the required open space as it pertains to the code, which
we were not meeting and we were requested by this body to meet, so we do have five
percent open space that will remain a permanent part of the subdivision and under
permanent control of the homeowners association at this point. We did add area to this
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 23 of 47
park, so all the open space that we added, is quote, usable, so there is no additional
open space that added in entryway landscaping. We tried to keep as much usable as
we could and we were able to come up with that five percent open space. We did that
mainly by adjusting these lots around and -- on the prior application we had three lots
that pointed out to the east and we switched one of those going now to the north. The
area that you see in this location, we do have it as a separate lot, more for ease of
conveyance in the future. That will be conveyed to the Meridian School District. It will
be fenced in the interim while we -- it will be improved by the developer and, then,
owned and maintained by the homeowners association -- maintained. It will be owned
by the school district, maintained by the homeowners association and until the time the
school goes in. At that time this will become a park or a part of the playground and I
tried to spell that out in this letter. We did meet with Mrs. Powell on Friday to make sure
we were coming back in with a plat that what we thought from the previous discussions
was what you wanted to see and it was determined that we thought we were, so we are
here before you this evening requesting approval or questions, should you have any.
Corrie: Council, any questions?
Bird: I have none. He's done exactly what we asked him to.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Amar, do you think it would be a problem, either as a plat note or a CC&R
condition or even both to indicate, so that homeowners who buy the property there are
going to know that that part will eventually become part of the school?
Amar: I hope it won't be a problem, because we are going to do it.
Nary: Right. I can just see somebody five years from now coming back and saying
where did my park go, but I think that way it's just clear to everybody that's the intent.
Amar: What we have found in the past is that it's best not only as a plat note, because
they can grab this and go, great, I live there, they don't read any of the notes on the plat,
even if it's on the plat.
Nary: Right.
Amar: So, we will have a plat note, we will have it in the CC&R’s and I think more
importantly there will be some sort of sign out here that says this is going to be a school,
it's not going to be an open space forever, just so they know and everybody is
protected. We are doing that in one instance with a sewer lift station lot in this city and I
think it will help out quite a bit.
Nary: Thank you.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 24 of 47
Corrie: Okay. Any other questions?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Kevin, have you worked with the school district on -- I think it's great that
you're greening up their piece of property. I kind of liked how you had it before, but
have you worked with them as far as once you do turn it over, how you're going to
irrigate that and it will work into their plans? You're just coordinating it with them?
Amar: We are coordinating that with Wendell mostly, the school district. His concern
was that this park area be -- it will be irrigated with fresh irrigation, but under a separate
-- I don't know if you use a separate phasing in the irrigation or something, so when this
is cutoff, it's an easy disconnect from the rest of it.
De Weerd: Okay.
Amar: I'll let my smarter landscape people than I figure that out.
De Weerd: And you will have an access into the school area through that park area?
Amar: Correct. At the time that the school goes in, this will be fenced in this location
and from Mr. Bigham's testimony there will be some sort of pathway there will bollards
or something to that effect, similar to what would be at this pathway. There will be some
sort of bollards. If the Fire Department or some other emergency vehicle needs to get
in there, they can be removed, but people aren't going to be able to drive their -- I think
four wheelers is what Wendell worries most about and snowmobiles from one story he
was telling me.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Amar: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. This looks nice.
Corrie: Anyone else? Thank you, Kevin?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor? Mr. Amar, what's the date on your revised plat, please?
Amar: You're asking hard questions. It was plotted today. July 14, 2003. I have full
size copies if you would like those.
McCandless: Yesterday.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 25 of 47
Amar: Okay. Yesterday.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I have a question and I don't know if it's for Anna or Bruce or maybe even
the applicant as well. At our joint ACHD meeting the discussion of Highway 16 was on
the item -- was an item of discussion. That will be the connection over the Boise River
from the Star area that would connect up to the Ten Mile interchange and there will be --
I don't know if there is an adjustment in from the center line, what kind of right of way
they need or -- before we do anything on this plat, is that something that should be
discussed? Have you heard anything about this?
Amar: At the time, this plan was approved -- or this Preliminary Plat was approved by
ACHD no discussion of that nature came up. They requested conditions of approval or
we were required to some conditions of approval with respect to the width of the road
and the right of way and things, either we have to dedicate it or set it aside for future
dedication or none of the above. Typically, what we do is set it aside for future
dedication and let the homeowners association maintain it until that time, so it's a nice
greened up space. In my discussions with ACHD is that there is enough right of way or
will be enough right of way -- there is prepared to be enough right of way for any
improvements to Black Cat. Now, I'm not sure where Highway 16 is -- I have lived in
the valley for about 15 years and that crossing over the Boise River keeps moving, so
I'm not sure where it is today. I'm not as informed on those discussions as probably this
body is. But it's my understanding the ACHD is aware of this and has planned for that
in the future.
Corrie: They don't know it and we don't know either. There is a possibility that she's
brought up that -- that will happen. It may go down Ten Mile. We don't know. Just so
you're --
Amar: When I moved here 15 years ago Ten Mile interchange was five years away, so-
Corrie: It's still five years away.
Amar: Still five years away.
Bird: I was going to say, it's still five years away.
Corrie: But it may move fast.
Amar: I could. I hope.
Corrie: Okay. Any other questions?
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 26 of 47
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else form the public that would like to issue
testimony at this time? Okay. Let the record show that we have two that signed up that
was for Birchstone Creek Subdivision. Okay. Any other discussion before we close the
Public Hearing on Items 14, 15, and 16 of Birchstone Creek Subdivision?
De Weerd: No. I guess -- Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I would have a question of Anna.
Powell: Yes.
De Weerd: The right of way that's been asked for by ACHD is that for a three or five
lane road?
Powell: I believe it's for a five-lane road.
De Weerd: Okay.
Powell: And, then, I was asking the applicant if the power line -- there is substantial
power lines down Black Cat that cross as to which side of the road they are on, so in
this location they are on the east side of Black Cat, which would mean that you would
probably be looking for -- if there was a shortage of right of way, you would probably be
looking on this site to -- good question. Oh. I'm sorry. These are not the big metal
ones. That was my concern is where those big -- if those big metal ones were still -- but
they, apparently, go down Ustick, so there is more flexibility in the site.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Corrie: Any other discussion? Okay. Hearing none, I will entertain a motion to close
the Public Hearing on Items 14, 15, and 16 at this point.
De Weerd: So moved.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to close the public -- continued
Public Hearing on Items 14, 15, and 16 on Birchstone Creek Subdivision. Any further
comments? All those in favor say aye. Opposed no? All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 27 of 47
Corrie: Further discussion on Item 14, Birchstone Creek Subdivision, request for
annexation and zoning of 34.52 acres from an RUT to an R-8 zone for the proposed
Birchstone Creek Subdivision. Okay. Hearing none --
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we approve AZ 03-008, request for annexation and zoning of
34.52 acres from RUT to R-8 zones for the proposed Birchstone Creek Subdivision by
Centennial Development, LLC. On the northwest corner of West Ustick Road and North
Black Cat Road, and to incorporate all staff, P&Z, and Council and Public Hearing -- and
applicant comments and notes and for the attorney to draw up the Findings of Facts and
Conclusions of Law showing so.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Is there a second? All right. Thank you. Motion has been made and seconded
for the approval of the request for annexation and zoning of 34.52 acres from an RUT to
an R-8 zone. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion for request for annexation and zoning is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Next is the request for Preliminary Plat.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move that we approve PP 03-008, request for Preliminary Plat approval and that
the lots have changed -- the date on the Preliminary Plat that is approved is July 14,
2003 and, Anna, can I ask what did the lots change to? I didn't --
Powell: The lot count for buildable lots did not change.
Bird: Okay and none of the building lots changed? Okay. That would be approval of
89 building lots and seven other lots on 34.52 acres in a proposed R-8 zone for the
proposed Birchstone Creek Subdivision by Centennial Development, LLC. On the
northwest corner of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road and incorporate staff,
Planning and Zoning, applicant and City Council comments, and to draw up the
Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order showing approval.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 28 of 47
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion?
Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Okay. All ayes. Motion for request for Preliminary Plat approval is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Item Number 16.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move that we approve VAR 03-013, the request for a Variance to Meridian City
Code 12-4-5, requiring blocks to be not less than 400 feet and not more than 1,000 feet
in length for Birchstone Creek Subdivision by Centennial Development, LLC. Northwest
corner of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road, to incorporate staff, Planning
and Zoning, City Council, and applicant comments, notes, and to draw up Findings of
Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order showing approval.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: All right. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion?
Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Okay. All ayes. The request for a Variance is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 18. Public Hearing: PP 03-007
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 36
building lots and 7 other lots on 11.65 acres in an R-4 zone for
Clearbrook Estates Subdivision
by R.K. Development, LLC – west of
North Meridian Road and south of West Ustick Road:
Item 19. Public Hearing: VAR 03-012 Variance
Request for a to block length
requirements for a block on the south side of Clearbrook Street for
Clearbrook Estates Subdivision
by R.K. Development, LLC – west of
North Meridian Road and south of West Ustick Road:
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 29 of 47
Corrie: We have done Item 17, so we will move on to Item 18 and Item 19. These are
Public Hearings. Number 18 is a request for Preliminary Plat approval of 36 building
lots and seven other lots on 11.65 acres in an R-4 zone for Clearbrook Estates
Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC, west of North Meridian Road and south of West
Ustick Road. Then, we also have a request for a Variance to block length requirement
for a block on the south side of the Clearbrook Street for Clearbrook Estates
Subdivision by the R.K. Development, LLC. Without any objections from the Council, I
will open the Public Hearing on Item 18 and 19 and hear testimony on both. At this time
I would like to have the staff comments first.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this is an in-fill development on a very
long, very narrow property that has one stub street currently to it, although it shows up
as yellow on this map, it is -- it shows up as white on yours, it just looks yellow from
here. Sorry. Maybe your eyes are better than mine. Pardon me. To the south of the
property is a large creek and that this drawing actually shows the flood plain for that
creek. I wish I knew what the name was. Sorry. The discussion at Planning -- this
does come forward from Planning and Zoning Commission with a recommendation for
approval. There was one letter that was presented in opposition to the project. The
letter is a general letter, concern about the rate of development in the Meridian area,
and just the general growth and development it did not offer particular criticisms about
this proposed Preliminary Plat. The issues that were largely discussed at the Planning
and Zoning concerned whether or not they would put in another landscape island within
the project. Planning and Zoning Commission decided not to require that and, really,
the substantive issue regarded the storm water retention ponds for the property. There
are three of them proposed, one, two, three and four, and they do border on the south --
it's on the -- this is the South Slough along here. The concern of staff was that these
are proposed as lined ponds, so there will likely be standing water in them and that,
therefore, they do not really serve an open space function. They did go back and kind
of recalculate those areas, only calculating the usable area around the ponds.
Basically, the -- kind of the perimeter of the pond is all that was -- or the perimeter of the
lot that has the ponds on them is all that was calculated in the five percent open space.
The actual area at the -- kind of the floor of the basin was not counted in the five
percent, but they do meet that five percent requirement. Those, as I mentioned, were
the primary issues with Planning and Zoning Commission. We will answer any
questions -- there was a presentation on what these would look like and we do have
those photos that were presented at the Planning and Zoning Commission on how
these lined ponds do appear in the subdivision. Most of them, as I understand, are
having to be redone, because they are -- they are a challenge for everyone as far as
getting them to look attractive and, yet, still meeting everybody's requirements as far as
separation. With that, I will stand for questions.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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De Weerd: So, Anna, you said that if you used the perimeter areas where they wouldn't
have water, that constituted the five percent open space, but don't we have a
clarification that it has to be usable? What's usable about a perimeter for open space?
Powell: I believe that's a valid concern, Councilwoman de Weerd, and I'm not sure that
when they -- I was not present at the Planning and Zoning Commission on this, so I
don't know all of the testimony that took place. I think that is a valid concern, if you're
just talking about the pathways that go between -- that those also provide pathways to
the slough and there is quite a bit of open space down here provided a part of the
subdivision that's perhaps not showing up well on this drawing, but they have provided a
pathway along the slough and, then, they counted connections from here and I believe
on each side where there was not -- where there was not a pond and we do count
connections to a pathway system as part of a usable open space.
De Weerd: I guess my other question is you said it was a lined storage drainage pond
and there have been problems with these kinds of facilities in the past. What kind of
problems? Just mosquito breeding area or --
Powell: Here is -- yes. That and as you see them, they are -- there is standing water in
them. This is one that is not lined, so this is one where the water is able to drain and --
but the lined ones are similar in appearance to these ones. There are -- it does provide
grounds for mosquito, beetle larva. Here is another one. As I understand it, this one
has been reworked, and this one was being reworked also.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Corrie: Any other questions of staff? Okay. Hearing none, is the representative or
applicant here this evening?
Cook: Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council.
Corrie: Raise your right hand. Is the testimony you're about to give to the Council the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Cook: It is.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Cook: My name is Richard Cook I'm with Briggs Engineering, here tonight representing
the applicant. Address is 1800 West Overland Road in Boise. Where to begin. It
seems like the issue that first popped up is the retention ponds, so I will address that
first. The retention ponds are wet ponds and they will be lined with a natural material
called Bentonite that solidifies when it gets wet and that retains the water or keeps the
water from seeping out in a natural drainage fashion. The reason for that is because
the Department of Environmental Quality requires us to maintain a three-foot separation
between ground water and our drainage and with high ground water in areas such as
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July 15, 2003
Page 31 of 47
this, that makes it impossible to do. They require you to use a wet pond configuration.
Now, what we will be doing in this particular situation is that the South Slough that is
controlled by Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District, we will be submitting an application
taking pre-development flows and running these off into the slough for drainage and the
other thing is that the photographs that were shown of some of the earlier wet ponds I
think is not a fair representation of what we are proposing here. If you're looking at this
detail, you can see that we have quite a bit of landscape. We have the micropaths that
go along between the street -- Indian Rock Street and the proposed greenbelt along the
slough. Plus, we will be using wetland grasses and other trees that will be compatible
with this kind of wet pond usage. The open space that we have not only includes the
micropaths, but it also includes the greenbelt, which is a 25-foot wide greenbelt area
between the rear of the lots along the south side and the top of bank of the South
Slough. It will have a 10-foot wide paved pathway, plus landscaping, although it will be
somewhat minimal, you will have some shrubs you will have grass along -- all along the
greenbelt area. That totals up to about nine percent as far as open space is concerned.
The other issue that was brought up was the -- was the street and we did discuss this
during the P&Z Commission Hearing and it was the consensus of the commissioners,
as well as myself, that putting an island in that street anywhere along here would really
not serve any real useful purpose. I find that those types of islands, when you have
them in the middle of a street somewhere, say, for instance, right in here, it can create
problems for the homes that are on the opposite -- opposite side of the island itself for
getting in and out of their driveways and a lot of times it creates problems with people
backing into them or trying to go around the island on the wrong side of the street to
make ingress and egress out of this development easier for them. I believe that if push
comes to shove, we can put a stop sign in here right at the intersection of Indian Rock
rd
Street and Northwest 3 Avenue, if that become a real issue. That's something I
haven't talked with the highway district about, but I think that would be one method of
slowing the traffic down a little bit. We believe that the development that we are
proposing here is very compatible with the existing developments both to the north and
south of our proposed development and we think that what we have come up with here
is something that's going to fit in well with the neighborhood. With that, I will conclude
my remarks and stand for any questions you have.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: What kind of slopes do you have in your drainage area, the slopes from
where you say you have connecting pathways down to where you're catching your --
Cook: I am not sure. I believe it's a three to one -- three-to-one slope.
De Weerd: And how are you maintaining that? You will have a grass -- are you using
grass?
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 32 of 47
Cook: We are using wetland grasses and trees and shrubs that are compatible with
wetland type environments.
De Weerd: Now, have you considered shifting that drainage area to be directly across
from that street, so you could bulb it out a little bit even there, if you did a little bit of
shift? That's a real straight shot and I have seen what people do on straight shots. Stop
signs don't seem to slow anyone down.
Cook: Well, they are supposed to stop for them.
De Weerd: Well, supposedly. A bulb type of -- you know, I know they talked about a
traffic circle or something, but -- and I appreciate what you said about people backing
out and that kind of thing and that is a problem. If you moved that open space to where
it connects with that road, you could have some kind of a knob or something that could
be enough of a deterrent -- I know we had one kind of on a street that I lived on and that
certainly slows traffic down, they have to, just a suggestion. I am concerned and I do
know you have a high water table there, but those lined drainages -- I think they had it
over there in Coral Creek and it was -- there is an infestation of mosquitoes. It was a
really bad deal. I don't know what the answer is. I do understand the lining you're
required, because of the high water table, but are there any other option to how you can
do your drainage?
Cook: Mr. Mayor and Commissioner de Weerd -- I mean Council Person de Weerd, we
have looked at it and we discussed it with staff and during the Commission hearing both
of us agreed that if we had the answer to that particular problem we would be very
wealthy men, because we just can't seem to come up with any other viable solution at
this point. We are trying to comply with DEQ requirements and still handle the storm
water drainage at the same time and they kind of put us between a rock and a hard
spot, if you will, because we just can't seem to make it happen. The best that we can
do is take the majority of the runoff and drain it off into the South Slough, which will
really reduce the amount of water being retained in these particular wet ponds and I'm
trying to do our best to provide sufficient landscaping and wetland grasses in there to
help -- again, help absorb more of the water that will be found in those ponds.
De Weerd: What are you chances to getting permission to drain into the South Slough?
Cook: Very good for pre-development flow, yes.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: The Central District Health in their -- in their follow up, they -- Item number ten,
runoff is not to create a mosquito breeding problem and I feel that what -- these storm
drains we are putting in like this -- and I understand the developer is caught between a
rock and a hard place -- that's all they are is a mosquito breeding deal. I don't know
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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what the -- I don't know what the problem is. I know that's high water out there and it
will help if we can dump some of it into the drain, but we are still going to have standing
water out there right at the mosquito breeding time and it does really cause a problem
and I don't know how you solve it, but it's something that we need to solve and the ones
with the pictures that we had here of those things were very disturbing to me, it's very
embarrassing as a councilman to approve and let something like that through and be
out in subdivisions. This is a problem that's got to be taken care of and it's not just a
developer's problem, it's a city problem, and I don't know what the answer is, other than
the fact that we need to quit creating mosquito breeding areas, if at all possible.
Cook: Mr. Mayor, Commissioner Bird --
Bird: We would all be rich if we could -- if we could solve the problem.
Cook: Absolutely. Yes, sir. It was a very easy thing to take care of storm water prior to
DEQ coming up with their new regulations, you know, and you can -- you can construct
a drainage pond that will filter out the large majority of your impurities and what have
you that end up in the groundwater. With the federal regulations being what they are
now, if they get, even you know, a slight increase of impurities in the water that end up
in the river, then, everybody's in trouble. It can create a lot of problems. That's -- that's
what -- that's where DEQ is coming from. Central District Health, I have talked to them
quite extensively about this, and they have various areas that they have created
mosquito abatement districts, but those are largely ineffective, because it takes care of
one particular area and they don't -- you can't put up a wall or a curtain to keep the
mosquitoes from going somewhere else, so it is a universal problem and no one's been
able to come up with a solution yet.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: Are you counting your five percent open space as part of -- your wetlands
there as part of the five percent?
Cook: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman McCandless, no, we aren't just the micropath
themselves, which is a 15 foot wide landscape strip.
McCandless: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: Any other questions of Mr. Cook?
Bird: I have none, Mayor.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to issue
testimony at this time? We have in the -- oh, yes. Go ahead. Is the testimony you are
about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 34 of 47
Broer: It is.
Corrie: Thank you.
Broer: My name is Chris Broer, 387 Westbury Drive in Meridian and I live in the
subdivision that's immediately south of the proposed site. My concerns are two fold.
One, general concern about property price, appreciation, in Boise and Idaho ranking
thth
47, 48, respectively on -- because I think there is too much general supply of
subdivisions and homes in Meridian, but, aside from that, my true concern is the pond --
the still water that will be immediately adjacent. I live on the street that you can see is
immediately south of the proposed site, right along that barrier there, and I respect that
the developer is working within the guidelines presented to him, but I still am very
concerned about that still water that's going to be there and the resulting mosquito
infestations that will likely occur. I'm also concerned about -- you can see the respective
common areas within our subdivision and when you look at the five percent that's being
used, most of it is going to be an egress, rather than a -- kind of a common area where
people can gather and so forth. Again, I understand the constraints of that particular
site, but being adjacent to that and looking how that's being calculated, that the five
percent really just seems to be a small -- I know it's 25-foot wide, but you can see the
comparison to the common areas in our subdivision. Again, my biggest concern is
about the still water, the mosquitoes, it's right up against where our homes are in the
existing subdivision. I have been there for ten years, so I try to bring the perspective of
a long time homeowner there and I'm just concerned about that and I did make my
feelings known at the Planning and Zoning meeting as well. I thank you for your time.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Chris. Is there anyone else that would like to issue
testimony? Okay. Hearing none, Council, comments? Oh, I'm sorry. There is no more
testimony. Mr. Cook, do you have any rebuttal or -- all right. Okay. Thank you. Okay.
Council?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Brad, I think your department probably gets the bulk of the complaints and -
- and you're looked at for the solutions for some of this. I think ACHD has been
struggling to deal with drainage issues as well. Is there anything different they could be
doing?
Watson: Council Member McCandless -- I'm sorry. De Weerd Mayor and Council
Members. This is a problem that's ongoing recently, probably over the last 12 to 18
months, where state rules, DEQ, ACHD requirements, city landscape requirements all
conflict to create this. No one's found it yet, as Mr. Cook has testified, and as Bruce
Freckleton testified during the Planning and Zoning meeting. It's very, very difficult.
The one thing to point out is that although it has happened in the past that Nampa-
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July 15, 2003
Page 35 of 47
Meridian has -- has issued a license agreement for offset discharge, I think we need to
look at this in a worst case manner, because their April 15, 2003, letter specifically says
all storm drainage must be retained on site. That doesn't say that that's not to mean
that they can't work it out as the plans come through, but that's what we have right now.
Corrie: Brad, if they flip-flop the water area to the north side, I guess it is, instead of on
the south side, would that do any good as far as the distance that they could not have
that --
Watson: Mr. Mayor, there is an existing subdivision immediately north of this as well. It
would be upgrading to South Slough, as we call it, the Finch lateral as Nampa-Meridian
calls it, runs along the south boundary. I'm sure that's why they have their drainage on
the south side, because it's downhill.
Corrie: Shows you what I know. Okay.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Instead of having three different drainage ponds, could they not consolidate
it into one larger area, then, your holding wouldn't be so deep, you would have less of a
slope and you could still drain into the South Slough, but, then, you might even be able
to have usable open space. Is that feasible? Do you have to have it at three different
intervals for storm water drainage reasons or --
Watson: Well, Council Member de Weerd, there are ACHD infrastructure specifications
that may prevent that. That's a very long piece. It may not prevent it, but they may
need to install storm drain piping two-thirds of the way up and down that street, with
drop inlets. That would be rather expensive. Just from a personal viewpoint, I like
when it's spread out over different areas. In fact, if we had the borrow ditch, similar to
like Haven Cover Four or Five, I think they had some groundwater problems at the time
and they experimented with no sidewalk on one side. The more you concentrate storm
water the bigger a problem it becomes, generally. That's purely from a storm water
perspective. Maybe there are some landscaping benefits that would offset that.
Corrie: Any other questions? Okay. What would you -- like to close the Public Hearing?
You want to continue the Public Hearing for answers, approve it, or deny it? It's up to
the Council.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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Bird: If we don't have any more Public Hearings -- or public comments, I move that we
close the Public Hearings for PP 03-007 and also VAR 03-012, for Clearbrook Estates
Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC.
Corrie: All right. Motion has been made to close the Public Hearing. Is there a second
to that?
Nary: Second.
Corrie: There is a second. Any further discussion?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I would like to see this continued to make sure. I think that Brad had raised
a comment in the -- the irrigation district's letter about storing water on site. That really
would eliminate the ability to drain into the South Slough. You know, I would like
clarification on the reason for that comment and -- because I see that as at least helping
lessen the standing water issues and those drainage issues or drainage areas to help
alleviate how much standing water is there and I think that has to be a real -- it is a real
serious concern. The drainage in the South Slough lessens or at least mitigates it to a
certain extent and I would like to hear their answer before -- so that would be
considered new testimony. I'd like to hear about that before we close the Public
Hearing.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: What you brought up, Tammy, I did not see that as a condition of approval from
Planning and Zoning or the staff, the -- being able to drain that into the ditch, but maybe
it was. I could have missed that. I didn't see it as an approval. It was something that I
think Mr. Cook just stated up here that he felt he could get approval to do that when we
asked about standing water. I have a lot of concerns on that standing water, but I don't
know how we are going to solve it when you have -- when you have the federal
departments out here mandating that you do it that way. Certainly, the developer and
the Council and the Planning and Zoning and the staff are between a rock and a hard
place and I -- the letter from -- that Brad had, I have not seen that in this -- in this deal at
all. I don't think it was part of this application here. I don't know. Maybe it was.
Corrie: Brad?
Watson: Mr. Mayor. It did make it into P&Z's recommendations, but that's one of those
things that happen outside of the city's purview where ACHD will have to be a party to
the license agreement with Nampa-Meridian, because it's serving their right of way. It's
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 37 of 47
not one of those things that the city enforces and Mr. Mills is here tonight, maybe he
could speak to that a little bit more specifically, but we don't -- or at least when I sign a
plat I don't just look at the city's conditions, I'm looking at other agencies' conditions as
well and that's one that has popped up from time to time that causes problems.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess I would like to hear from Mr. Mills, but we have two -- we have
conflicting requirements. We have DEQ saying you have to line it and you have Central
District Health saying you can't create a mosquito breeding area and I know we have
had problems in other subdivisions. We can't continue to stick our head in the sand on
this issue. We need to find something and incorporate it into our findings and make it a
conditional of approval. I don't know what that is. If we don't start figuring it out, we are
just going to be furthering the problem and getting nowhere.
Mills: Is there a question there?
Corrie: Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mills: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address.
Mills: Bruce Mills. Ada County Highway District, Garden City.
De Weerd: Bruce, I guess the question is more on the license agreement and maybe
Brad could phrase the question better than I can.
Watson: Sure. Specifically, the question is when you approve the storm drainage
plans for the public right of way and discharge into a jurisdictional stream that is under
Nampa-Meridian, the developer and you and the irrigation district, from what I
understand, enter into a license agreement.
Mills: That's my understanding as well.
Watson: And that's not handled through the city, we are not a party to that agreement.
ACHD reviews those plans we don't. We don't approve those plans. That's why it can
get around our findings, the city's findings, and sneak it's way in on the backside.
De Weerd: So, that, in essence, can be some of the problem that if we don't list it as a
condition and you can't secure the license agreement for drainage into the natural
stream, then, they don't drain anywhere, they just retain the water and let it evaporate,
is that correct? I know you --
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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Mills: Mr. Mayor and Councilwoman de Weerd, I'm not as up on it as our development
review section is as far as the requirements. I do know that, yes, this has been a very
difficult problem in these areas with high groundwater and, as the applicant stated
tonight, with the new changes with DEQ and this separation, you can no longer just
allow it to filter into the ground as we did in the past. As the pond fills up, the wet pond,
it's still my understanding that there needs to be some type of an outlet to get, you
know, it released at the predevelopment rate, which is why I think it is going to be
important that that percentage of the water be allowed to flow into Nampa-Meridian.
Now, if that's not allowed to happen, that would be a very undesirable situation, as you
said, because just waiting for it to evaporate could take a long time. The other problem
that we have seen in these subdivisions is that, you know, it doesn't take rain, where
everyone's irrigating it just tends to all flow to the low point and sit there from just water,
sprinkling.
De Weerd: So, where in the process with ACHD does this license agreement come up?
Where do you hear from Nampa-Meridian that that would be allowed?
Mills: When the construction plans come to us for the Final Plat, during that period of
time that's when all of these situations get ironed out.
De Weerd: Wow. I guess is there any way we can get a commitment for that drainage
before we make a decision?
Mills: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman de Weerd, the only thing I could say is if the applicant
isn't -- and maybe they are in a time critical situation. Perhaps deferring this I could get
some better answers for you on the exact procedure that we are going to go through at
ACHD.
De Weerd: Thank you. Since we still have a motion on the table to close, I would like
to consider his offer and if see we can get further information on that. If the commitment
can be made at a pre-approval stage, that is where we would like it.
Corrie: But right now, you say it's at Final Plat.
Mills: Correct. That's correct.
De Weerd: With construction plans.
Mills: And I also know that there are some irrigation districts that do not want to allow
any flow into their systems at all. I don't know where -- I'm sorry, I don't know if Nampa-
Meridian is one of those, but I can find that out.
Corrie: Thank you. Mr. Cook, would you come here just a second? How much time
have you got to do all this or not?
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July 15, 2003
Page 39 of 47
Cook: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I'm sure you have heard this before, but
virtually none. It really is in this particular situation a very time critical process that we
are involved in. I have no problem with contacting Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District.
In fact, I have already got the application completed and a check from the developer
ready to go to Nampa-Meridian within the next two days just for this particular issue and
we will be coming back before the Council for the Final Plat. I don't have any difficulty
whatsoever, as soon as I get word from Nampa-Meridian to forward that on for Brad
Watson or the Council, via a separate letter or whatever, but I would request that we be
allowed to go forward with our Final Plat process and not hold up the Preliminary Plat at
this time.
Corrie: I don't know whether that satisfies you or not.
Bird: I think that we need to -- we have ways to do it, we have got on here -- we have
got a motion before the floor, let's have a vote and see which way we want to go and I
think there is still ways to come back and -- and this is something that is a problem for
more than just this development and I agree with Tammy, something's got to be done
with getting these recommendations out and this is a bad situation, but we don't stop it
on just one -- we don't start stopping it on one. This is a problem that is throughout the
city it's not just one deal. I would ask for the question. Let's vote.
Corrie: Okay. The question has been asked for and the question is to close the Public
Hearing. We have had a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Opposed
no. All right. Motion dies. What's your pleasure now?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I would like to continue this Public Hearing and I would defer to either the
applicant or ACHD -- one week. Is that sufficient? In getting an answer on when or if
we can get an answer on if they can drain into the South Slough. Also, I would like to
get some additional information on how in these lined ponds mosquito abatement can
be -- what kind of plan could be worked into it, because I would like to see a plan
adopted as one of the conditions and perhaps in the CC&R’s of the -- which we have
nothing to do with, but I would suggest that maybe that plan be incorporated as well.
We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and I know in-fill projects are really
limited with the amount of space they have to do, but this is beginning to be a serious
problem, it exists today in our older subdivisions, but it doesn't mean that we need to
continue to approve them and further the problem. We might take this opportunity and
see what -- what -- I'm sorry -- what solutions are out there.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
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July 15, 2003
Page 40 of 47
Nary: In addition to that, I guess we haven't had a tremendous amount of discussion. I
did hear Mr. Cook's testimony regarding the traffic on the street. I am not in favor of
stop signs as alternatives to traffic calming and I agree with Councilwoman de Weerd
that I can't see why some traffic calming device cannot be in this location. You can
certainly change the storm water pond to a slight enough degree or simply -- simple
change the access for this lot and this lot enough to allow some type of island or
something in this location. I don't want to leave it to a stop sign at some point in the
future. Again, I don't really think that's the best alternative. I think that that's something
I would like to at least -- the applicant to consider before they come back, but right now,
based on the way this is designed and laid out, I couldn't support it, in addition to these
concerns about the storm water pond. I just think it's a very dangerous roadway we are
creating and an environment that's more of a danger than a plus and I think it can be
remedied with some very simple engineering in that spot to help slow down some traffic
and I just would like to see some creativity towards that.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council?
Corrie: Anna.
Powell: Could I ask -- the city engineer brought up briefly a discussion of the borrow pit
concept with flat curb or a ribbon curve where the storm water would be retained the
entire length of the street potentially on both sides as a way to disperse that. I'm not
sure if Meridian has had many of those types of situations. I know that they are
occurring in Eagle. They have been in for about year now and I'm not sure how
effective they have been. Would that be something you're willing to consider in this
situation? Some communities, quit frankly, just say, no, we don't want it, we want
straight -- you know, we want vertical curb and that's the end of the discussion, kind of,
but, basically, the water flows off the street into a narrow borrow ditch. The trick is
getting the homeowners to leave that borrow ditch there, rather than filling it in, but I
think that the development communities have come up with some ideas on how to do
that. Would you be even willing to entertain that, if the developer is willing to work with
staff to maybe find a solution that way, possibly?
Corrie: Isn't there something on Haven Cove that did that? Was that working? Okay.
Because I remember Haven Cove coming in here and talking about that and they were
doing that and I didn't -- haven't heard anything pros or cons, but --
Watson: Mr. Mayor, I know it worked for at least a couple years, but it's probably been
a couple years since I have been out there.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
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July 15, 2003
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Bird: Mr. Mayor, I agree, let's -- we are open, I believe, for anything -- to try anything
and I think it has been -- I think that has been successful and I think it was Haven Cove,
wasn't it, Brad, and -- I think it was successful.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: Anything. Anything.
nd
Corrie: Was that a motion, Mrs. de Weerd, to continue it until July the 22?
De Weerd: Mr. Cook would one week give you enough time? Staff, one week or are
we okay with --
Cook: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman de Weerd, I hope so. It will have to be via some
phone conversations and maybe something verbal coming from Nampa-Meridian.
Generally, it's taking them several weeks to process their applications. I'll do what I can
in that regard. As far as the traffic calming is concerned, I don't see where that would
be a major problem at that intersection. The answer to staff's question about the borrow
ditch, it's a requirement by ACHD that that's only permitted when you have lots that are
one acre or larger in size, otherwise, no borrow ditch.
Powell: They have approved them on less. I know for a fact. Sedona Creek in Eagle is
10 to 16,000 square foot lots. They are larger lots, agreed, but they -- it was
considerably less than an acre.
Cook: That must have been a policy waiver or something that was requested and
approved by the ACHD commissioners, because their policy does state you have to
have one acre lots or greater.
Corrie: We will have our staff look into for you, too, so make sure.
Cook: One week, we will certainly accept that and try to come back with some firm
answers and if I can get something in writing from Nampa-Meridian on acceptance of
storm water and understand that's pre-development flow on the storm water and,
generally, they are accepting pre-development flows into their sloughs and ditches, so
we will see where that takes us.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cook. Bruce, would you like something to -- you had a
look on your face like you want to talk.
Mills: Actually, it was the same thing, Mr. Mayor that we will only allow them on one
acre. We have tried a couple of subdivisions with some smaller lots -- not this small --
on a trial basis. They have been longer lots to where we have said put the swale
towards -- in front of the sidewalk towards the road. I don't know that it would work on
these, but that's the ones that we have done it on a trial basis and the jury is still out on
those.
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July 15, 2003
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Corrie: Okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move that we continue the Public Hearing for Items 18 and 19 to July
22nd, 2003.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. And that's for both of them. Okay. We have a motion and a second to
continue the Public Hearing on Item PP 03-007 and Variance 03-012. Any further
discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed no? Motion carried.
nd
There will be a continuance of these two until July 22 this year.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 20. Continued Public Hearing from June 10, 2003: Dust Abatement
Ordinance:
Corrie: Item Number 20 is the continued Public Hearing from June 10, 2003, on a Dust
Abatement Ordinance. At this time, I will open the Public Hearing -- the Continued
Public Hearing and have staff's comments first.
Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, at your last hearing -- I'm not sure that --
well, we talked about the dust ordinance and what was occurring in the rest of the
county as far as what applications they had or what they were processing and there are
no dust abatement ordinances being done in the county. Boise City, through its storm
water regulations, has done some track out provisions for tracking mud onto city streets,
but there is -- nothing has been done in the name of dust abatement. Some of the cities
like Kuna and Eagle have -- have looked at their burn ordinances as far as air quality is
concerned, but there is no one doing dust abatement ordinances in the county at this
time. When we left it last time I believe it was so that you all could discuss it at
Compass, rather than -- you didn't direct staff to prepare anything additional for the
hearing and it was I believe going to be a discussion with your COMPASS board to see
where you may want to go with this ordinance at this time. That's all I have.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I believe Anna was right you and Tammy were going to discuss this at Compass
and see what has come, because I think it's just something that until everybody gets on
board -- all the municipalities, including Ada County. It's not going to do us a bit of good
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July 15, 2003
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to sit here and argue or hear public comment or anything else until this goes -- I mean
it's got to be countywide or no wide. I don't know, I'd like to just completely pull it off the
agenda and --
Nary: Second.
Bird: -- redo it. That's -- I move that we pull this dust abatement ordinance off the
agenda until further stuff has been brought forward through COMPASS, which I think is
going to have to probably lead it.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess I don't want to see this drop off the radar screen. At least maybe
the city can write Compass a letter and say we have a draft that's been pending
comments from Compass and how it would correlate with a regional wide effort on dust
abatement ordinances countywide and maybe even region wide and look for their
direction on bringing a more uniform code that would be brought to the different areas to
adopt.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: You're always a lot nicer than I am. Were you looking at a letter to simply just
say we are not going to visit this at this time and -- I guess I look at Compass as just a
membership group that we belong to, they are the ones that pushed this, they are not
really pushing it at the moment. I don't -- I think if we are going to write them a letter, we
should say we are not going to push this at the moment either. If the Compass as a
group wants to revisit this issue, we will certainly listen to that. Otherwise, I mean I don't
see the point in really doing -- I don't want to set this over again, it seems like a waste of
time. I don't have a problem in writing them a letter, but I think the letter should really
simply be that we are not going to revisit this right now, unless there is a need to revisit
it in the future and COMPASS wants to push for that, we will certainly consider it.
Bird: I agree with Councilman Nary.
Corrie: That's probably the best way, because I have a feeling COMPASS is not going
to do anything now.
Bird: I think it went off of their radar.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
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July 15, 2003
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Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: The whole reason we started on this was because it was COMPASS driven
and just because they have a little political pressure, they have backed off, it doesn't
mean that our community shouldn't at least be responsible to these certain things. I
agree that we shouldn't be the one and only community in the county, because,
unfortunately, the air doesn't stop at the city limits. I think we need to put it back to
them, who initially brought it to us and said you guys need to start working on this. Our
staff did, brought a document, it seemed like everyone else backed off, and we need to
ask them why. You know, we started this process because it was an issue, because
there was a lawsuit, because there is an air quality issue in this region and we were
trying to be responsive to that. Now, they also need to step up to the plate. If they say,
hey, air quality is not an issue anymore you don't need it, fine.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Yes. I mean -- and maybe we are just talking about a little bit of a semantic
difference. I mean I guess I'm not sure what end we are going to get from that, but I
think we just do need to make it clear to Compass that we did attempt to address this,
we were looking at this on their urging. It doesn't appear to be an issue now until it
becomes a very countywide or region wide issue, whether or not we are going to get a
response from the Compass director as to why they don't seem to have a real priority
for it now. I don't know that we are going to get anything. I just don't want to put it back
on the agenda again. Send them a letter.
Bird: I've seen enough of it.
De Weerd: I don't either.
Nary: That's fine. How we work out the wording on it is -- doesn't matter that much to
me. I just want to make sure we put it to bed and be done with it for the time being.
Bird: We got a motion and second.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor, at least it allows you to bring it to executive committee and ask
for a response.
Corrie: Yes. I will. Primarily they are talking about PM 10, now they are down to PM
2.5 and the PM 10 is well below the levels of federal standards. I think that's one of the
reasons that they have kind of put it in the back burner, anyway, so -- attorney.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I just would recommend that in the letter
you indicated what's been the case, which is that you're willing to work on a countywide
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
Page 45 of 47
solution, but if -- it needs to be a countywide solution. COMPASS can have a role in
doing that in this air shed, but when COMPASS as a whole achieves a consensus of
what items ought to be covered in some sort of air quality ordinance, then, those things
can be addressed by the individual community members of COMPASS. Until that
consensus occurs, that you're stopped.
Nary: This is something Mr. Nichols or maybe Mr. Smith might want to write this letter.
Corrie: I can work on that. I'm pretty good at talking to them. Yes, I think so, we need
to have it a countywide issue, and it can be done, so we will -- I will do it. Okay. Then,
we need a motion or --
Bird: We have a motion and second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion made and second. Is there any further discussion? Hearing
none, roll call vote, Mr. Berg, just to make sure.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Just to summarize, this is a
motion to pull the item off the agenda.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Okay. The item is pulled.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Item 21. Tabled from July 8, 2003: Ordinance No. :
Fence Variance Ordinance:
th
Corrie: Now, tabled from July 8, Ordinance Number 03-1030, Fence Variance
Ordinance. We'd like to have the City Clerk read the ordinance by title only at this point.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance Number 03-1030, an
Ordinance of the City of Meridian amending Title 11, Chapter 1, to add a new Section
11 on Appeals and Title 12, Chapter 4, Section 10-J of the Meridian City Code, Fence
Variance Procedure providing for a waiver, instead of a Variance, providing for
administrative review to be conducted by the Planning and Zoning Administrator or
designee and deletion and addition of language and providing an effective date. The
Cherie McCandless ordinance.
Corrie: The Cherie McCandless ordinance.
Nary: Let the record reflect that it's the McCandless ordinance. Yes.
Corrie: Is there anyone from the public that would like to have the ordinance read in its
entirety? Hearing none -- I hate to see that skunk go. I'm getting rather fond of it.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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Powell: Oh, wait until you see this. Now give it a moment. There we go.
Bird: I think Councilwoman McCandless should make this motion and --
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless, a motion?
McCandless: Well, Mr. Mayor, I have read through this, I think it's wonderful, and I
would move that we accept Ordinance Number 03-1030, Fence Variance Ordinance
and with suspension of rules.
Bird: I second that.
Corrie: All right. Motion has been made and seconded to approve Ordinance Number
03-1030, Fence Ordinance -- Variance Ordinance with suspension of rules. Any further
comments?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I'm just glad that that personal interest ordinance isn't on the agenda this week or
I think Mrs. McCandless might not be able to vote on this one, but I think we are ready
to go forward.
Corrie: Well put. Well put. Roll call vote, please, Mr. Berg.
Roll call: McCandless, aye; Nary, aye; de Weerd, aye; Bird, aye.
Corrie: Boy, I'm sure glad I didn't have to break a tie. Okay. The Ordinance Number
03-1030 has been approved with suspension of rules.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Looking at the time, I was figuring we would be out of here about 12:00, so
nothing else is on the agenda. I would remind the Council that we do have the meeting
Thursday morning at 8:00 here at the chambers for budget hearings and with that I will
entertain a motion, then, if nobody has anything else, to adjourn.
De Weerd: So moved.
Corrie: Do I hear a second?
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to adjourn. All in favor say aye.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 15, 2003
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MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Okay. 9:15. Thank you.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:15 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK