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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2001 10-09 CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL STRA TEGIC PLANNING SESSION / WORKSHOP AGENDA ITEMS FOR DISCUSSION Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 6:30 P.M. City Council Chambers Roll Call: _X_ Tammy de Weerd _X_ Cherie McCandless _X_ Ron Anderson _X_ Keith Bird _X_ Mayor Robert Corrie Issue #1 Discussion with Western Ada Recreation District and the Meridian Dairy Show Board at the Meridian Speedway Issue #2 Discussion with the Meridian School District Representatives - update on staff meeting and easements issue Issue # 28 Update on Law Enforcement Building Issue #3 Discussion of employee health benefit package Issue #4 Discussion of future phases of Bear Creek Park improvements Issue #5 Discussion of transportation priorities (Transportation Task Force Report) - Gary Smith Issue #6 Discussion of business licensing - Gary Smith Issue #7 Discussion of status/update of fee study for possible increases for P & 2, Public Works, Parks (impact fees) and Safety Services impact fees Issue #8 Discussion of Representatives for VIA TRAN Board Meridian City Council Workshop Agenda - October 9, 2001 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at pUblic meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings, pl~e contact the City Clerk's Office at 8884433 at least 72 hours prior to the public meeting. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 The regularly scheduled workshop of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:30 P.M. on Tuesday, October 9,2001, by President Keith Bird. Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Keith Bird, Tammy de Weerd, Cherie McCandless, and Ron Anderson. Others Present: Bill Nichols, Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Mike Worley, Ken Bowers, Stacy Kilchenmann, Dave Bowman, Tom Kuntz, Brad Watson, and Will Berg. Roll Call: _L TammydeWeerd _L Ron Anderson _L Mayor Robert Corrie x -- X -- Cherie McCandless Keith Bird Bird: Council, we'll start our Planning Session Workshop for October 9, 2001. Let it be shown that all are present, including Mayor Corrie. One thing on the agenda, that I forgot to tell Will to put on and we're going to put between two and three, with your permission, the update on the new Law Enforcement Building. Chief's going to come in and update us on that I believe; or Captain Bowman. I don't know who's going to. Corrie: Between two and three, I was going to ask about that. Bird: With your permission we will now take this meeting up to the speedway. The Meridian Dairy Show Board and the Western Ada Rec would like to meet us up there and go over some stuff. I think, Tom is up there. You're going up aren't you Will? We should be back before 7:00. Also the Mayor would like to add an agenda what is it Mayor? Corrie: VIA TRAN Rep. Bird: The VIA TRAN Rep. Corrie: We've got two now. Issue #1 Discussion with Western Ada Recreation District and the Meridian Dairy Show Board at the Meridian Speedway Bird: With that, we'll go up to the speedway and see what those two groups have. Have you got the car? Mr. Morrow, we're all here. Do you want to explain what we want? Morrow: Tom called me about a month ago about some plans (inaudible) talking about parking and so on and so forth. In our conversations with our board and with the Dairy Board, everybody was really worried about what the plans were. Since all three of us are players here, it is the desire of our board and the Dairy Board, (inaudible) to meet with the City Council and get some sense of what's going on or being proposed for the Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 2 area. Also to make sure that there's an avenue of influence here in terms of the other two entities so that we're able to make our entities work and function (inaudible). Ultimately what the design of the park may be given the fact that Franklin (inaudible), probably change some egress and ingress issues in the construction of that, sort of down size this area some with respect to this property. Having said that, (inaudible). Charlie and Jim have talked about Western Ada and our areas of concerns. Hill: Ken and I are just curious to know what the City is looking at in terms of (inaudible). Is it going to impact the dairy board ground? (inaudible). We're just interested to know what's going on - Corrie: Okay. Let me preference this before we get started. Have you got any plans to what you're going to be doing here? Have you shared that with them? They haven't seen anything now? Okay. All right, thank you. I didn't know whether this has been distributed to you guys or what. Okay. Bird: Who has seen it? Corrie: J don't know. I guess Tom is the only one that's got it right now. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: Yes, okay. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hill: I'm just concerned about our agreement that we already had (inaudible) is going to impact that area or not. That was our concern. Kuntz: I can give you a quick overview. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: Our plans are to vacate this lower road from the Chamber building to First Avenue, especially in light of the road being widened. When that happens, we will expand --. I've actually got a drawing I probably should just go get it and explain it. De Weerd: Would you? Kuntz: Of course. We're going to expand the parking area in front of the chamber building. It will hold approximately 23 cars. That's phase 1. We'll put a new larger playground facility up in the front of the park that can be seen from First Avenue. That's phase 1, Phase 2 will be to remove all this playground here and create a new parking here. Right now, we've got 180 parking spots in the park total. When we're done with phase 1 and phase 2 we'll have 180 parking spots, when we're done. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 3 Bird: This road don't go away, right Tom? Kuntz: Which one? Bird: The road that goes --. The curl road around here? The only one that goes away is that one right there? Kuntz: That's correct. Anderson: We're going to end up with the same number of spaces that we started with? Kuntz: Correct. Anderson: What do we gain then? Just moving the playground? Kuntz: We gain a couple of things. One is there's a safety concern from our staff, children running between these cars that are parked nose in along this playground equipment when the parents are on the other side using the free shelters. We've got kids running back and forth. So, by evacuating this area, making it total parking, then with the playground at the front. It's a safety issue. Two is ACHD is happy we're doing it because we're no longer having a road that is within a certain distance of an intersection, once its widened. Third, it's creating a larger, much larger parking area that will be shared by the chamber as well as the handicap using the shelter. That was the money that was in the budget, was approved this year for the --, 120 was to vacate the road, new playground equipment and new parking area over there. That's phase 1. Bird: Tom, may I ask you a question? Has this plan been shown to the chamber now that they're expanding too? And they bought off it on it? Kuntz: Yes. They're for it. Corrie: So, it sounds like --. Kuntz: Let me get the plan out. Corrie: I was going to say, we need to get these plans to all these and have a look at it since, you've not seen it. You haven't either? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: Jim, has your board looked at or seen anything at all? Okay. Johnson: We haven't seen anything. (inaudible) I had a couple questions for Tom too because there's some rumors floating around (inaudible) this entryway here. So, we need to address that too. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 4 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: (inaudible) it is conceptual. (inaudible) taking this lower road out, creating a much larger parking area here that can be used for the shelter as well as the chamber. One of the issues that we do want to talk to Western Ada about is possibly allowing us to put a new parking lot in as part of phase 2 which would be right around the corner here. I'm sorry. That is one issue that we would like to discuss with you guys in the future. Then you can see the small island will be added here. This area would be expanded to allow parking on both sides of the street. I know noticed this today. It does look like we're expanding the turn around area out there just a little bit for more parking. This is to be considered phase 3. Hill: This looks like you're closing off this entry? Kuntz: Correct. De Weerd: I don't think that's shown on the design that we have in Council tonight. (inaudible) showed some little bump out there rather than closing it off. Kuntz: This one? De Weerd: I don't have my packet with me. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: This isn't showing this at all. De Weerd: Yes. That number 5 --. Bird: You're going to have to come through here just like you do now, right through there. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Where do you come? Anderson: Right here. This street right here. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: None of this is being even considered for this year. This is all conceptual. We'll leave that open. You know that would be a design thing that would be worked through with Western Ada. The other thing that's kind of interesting is that W H Pacific did the survey and I have a copy of it. (inaudible) Franklin Road is coming in. Western Ada property is actually this triangle here. There should be an orange pin there painted by the deal. That's the corner of Western Ada's property. So, as you can see, the major Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 5 expanse of the parking lot is actually on City property as well as the corner of this building, is also on City property. This triangle is actually Western Ada's property. This isn't an issue to us but it is interesting (inaudible). Anderson: Is this kind of laid out by anybody as far as like the actual parking spaces and landscape? Kuntz: No. Anderson: Because this doesn't look like it (inaudible). It doesn't do a whole lot for the traffic flow and it doesn't do a whole lot for the numbers. I mean, I would think that that could be better utilized to either create a better flow of traffic through there and also create more usable parking spaces. A lot of that looks wasted to me, the way that's laid out there. Kuntz: We certainly didn't size it. This was the option that the chamber board went with. De Weerd: The reason the chamber board wanted that one, is they wanted access to both in and out of both sides. I guess originally, the suggestion was a one way parking. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: So, they redesigned it. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: That's what I'm going to call phase 3. That wouldn't happen until the speedway -- . Because if you flip this over --, This is really conceptual of what we would do with the entire property. This being the existing softball field, where we could create an ingress egress down here. Then swinging up close to the Dairy Boards property creating a play area and some additional parking lots. Again, disconceptual but that would (inaudible ). Corrie: (Inaudible) about possibly chain linking from the gates over if that's something that Meridian's going to have to live with. Kuntz: Have held up primarily because we want to get that pump station done and they're going to do some fencing around it. we wanted to see how that was going to be fenced before we decide how we're going to tie into that with the property line. You mean on this corner here? I think we want to do something there but we want to figure out - meet with you guys and figure out what's going to work best there esthetically as well as fencing and how it's going to work with your operation. Yes we want to do something (inaudible) because that fence is starting to look pretty bad. Corrie: There is no fence - Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 6 (Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members) Corrie: They're going to fence reasonably soon up there apparently around the well- Kuntz: I haven't been in touch with Gary Smith (inaudible). I would hope so because the well buildings are not done themselves. I know the well building and I believe they're asphalting around it and the fencing is all part of that contractor's responsibility so I'm assuming that's going to be done. Bird: Tom, on this phase here, is there anyway that we can (inaudible) ? Can we have a walkway down here because I know for the softball fields, for our American Legion programs, we utilize the dairy show board parking lot one heck of a lot and the park does too. So, is there anyway that we can make a little path down through there, do you think? Kuntz: Yes. De Weerd: People use it anyway. Bird: Well, yes I know but I mean lets have a little path that we can come down so that people will - Kuntz: Yes. Bird: -- so they're not walking through all - De Weerd: But, Keith, that's a long ways off. Bird: Yes, I know that but it's something we should plan. Kuntz: Well, that's why I called Walt. Because I wanted to get the Western Ada to take a look at this and see what we're doing and hopefully support us. Rountree: Up there around the well, back in that well, I see they hauled in some gravel, compacted it. That would be the area they're going to asphalt and that would be the area, configuration that they will (inaudible) also. Kuntz: That's what I believe. Yes. We can certainly get Gary Smith out here, you know next, this week and actually get the specifics. Rountree: (inaudible) Kuntz: Yes. I know that the fence is not going to be on our property line because of the landscaping that was put in by the building comes out past the property line. But, its there and we don't want to make a big deal about it. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 7 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: Yes. Bird: Okay, have you guys got any others? (inaudible) satisfy you? Rountree: Before you leave, the City can look forward and project when you'd start the (inaudible) construction? Kuntz: We would like to get the construction (inaudible). Put the new parking lot in here. We'd like to get the construction documents going this fall yet and out to bid during the winter. Then we'd start working this spring. Rountree: But the next phase? Kuntz: I don't have funding. I mean, what I would hope to do is ask for funding to do phase 2 which would be this and then whatever configuration is developed with Western Ada here. So, phase 2 would be from here on out. I'd like to get funding next year for that. Then phase 3 wouldn't be done until, things change drastically. Rountree: In phase 2 also, this additional parking? Kuntz: Which? Rountree: Out in the triangle here (inaudible)? Bird: Right here. Kuntz: Yes, phase 2. but, again that's with your consent. We certainly don't want to assume that we can put that in there. We just thought it would be a good use of the space. Anderson: Tom, on that other restroom (inaudible)? Your logic about the concern for safety and kids and stuff (inaudible). We have a covered area. It seems like a (inaudible) location for the --. Kuntz: It is, very poor. Anderson: (inaudible) responsibility that they could maybe take some of that landscaping out on this side and they get wide enough (inaudible) eliminate that other one so that you didn't have to walk across the driveway to (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 8 Kuntz: What we're going to do when we do this is, eliminate --. You can't get through here because that was a safety concern. The new way to get back to the parking lot (inaudible ). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: That's a good idea. I thought you were a fireman and all along you've been an architect. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: (inaudible) take a look at it and maybe get together again and see what you want to do as far as over here in this first phase and work that out with everybody. Then (inaud ible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hill: Tom, I was over talking about this with Ken. (inaudible) Kuntz: This line right here. We went to that point in the parking lot and there should be a pin. With this one? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes. Dairy shows (inaudible) Kuntz: Is that a problem? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Is that the only (inaudible) part on - Kuntz: Yes. Anderson; -- Western Ada and part on City? Kuntz: Yes, on City property. Yes. Rountree: I have a new question. When the new highway, or Franklin goes in, (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: Check it out. Bird: I don't know about that. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 9 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Berg: (inaudible) give it to me and I'll call you, Walt. Hill: All of our questions are answered. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We'll all ride back (inaudible). De Weerd: We're on Will. I got them for you Keith. Bird: You guys give me (inaudible). De Weerd: It's playing. I didn't need to push the thing. Bird: Its already going. Okay, we've returned from the speedway. We had a discussion up there. Tom showed them the plans and I believe everything was taken care of for our phase at Storey Park. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Issue #2 Discussion with the Meridian School District Representatives - update on staff meeting and easements issue Bird: We'll go on with the agenda now. The next item is the discussion with the Meridian School District representatives, update on staff meeting and easement issue. I think Mr. Bingham is here. Do you want to come forward, Wendell? Bingham: Wendell Bingham, Joint School District No.2. No major change in any of the districts concern. We did meet yesterday with staff, with Shari (inaudible). Went through, and also in attendance was Amber Van Aucker. Went through kind of the soup to nuts, if you will, general discussion of how to best coordinate with the City and for the City to coordinate their efforts with the school districts. It's a productive discussion. The proof will be how well the relationship would go from there and how well we can keep the lines of communication open. At this juncture our most specific concerns, to bring forth the discussion on the sewer easement regarding the Updike property that we own. There has been no movement if you will on either side with the exception of Mr. Hawkins-Clark wanting to know if it was possible to get before the school board and if you will, plead the City's case. (inaudible). I have indicated by phone message to the clerk, the board, and (inaudible) that to happen on the 2nd if the City was desirous to pursue that. That's where we stand unless the City has some specific requests or concerns that you'd like to convey to the school district. Bird: Council? Anything for Wendell? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 10 De Weerd: No. I just wanted him to give us an update and about the easement. Does either Shari or Brad have anything they would like to add? Bird: Brad, do you have anything you'd like to add? Are you available for the 22nd school board meeting? Yes, please so we can --. Watson: We had a very long meeting and we just kind of got to the sewer at the very end of it. We didn't really discuss it in detail. He just briefed me on what the school board's concerns and stance was. I asked if it might be beneficial if I showed up at the school board meeting. Corrie: I guess I have a question for them. What is considered mutually agreeable? Bingham: Mr. President, Mr. Mayor. The school board, after a great deal of discussion, simply asked that I approach the City for reasonable compensation for the land in question. The initial, however, (inaudible) in my initial letter that. We were asking for 50 percent of the appraised value of the land for the easement in question. That should translate to about 15, 16,000 dollars. (inaudible). I guess I should add that where we're collectively coming from, I need to make it clear that some of these are my thoughts. The school board's thoughts are that yes, the sewer line does increase the property value. We paid for that increase in property value when we acquired the site knowing that the sewer was coming through there. The same financial advantages will probably accrue to a development for a lot block development, if you will. It does not really accrue to the school district. We are the end user. We do not plan on subdividing the 32 acres. We simply plan on building a school there. In addition, its more than likely that we will be required to tile the ditch that is within 12, 15, 20 feet of the proposed sewer line on our northern boundary. In addition we will be required to install the sewer line entirely across the frontage of our property down Linden Street. Excuse me, Linder Road. That we will probably be required to either pay some form of latecomer's fees and sewer trunk line fee assessment and connections costs. So, out of that whole array of costs, the mindset is simply, is it appropriate to ask for compensation for primarily an infrastructure sewer line? That's the crux of the whole discussion. Bird: Wendell, is it not the school board's intent that, that is the policy of the City so that is their policy that if the City pays for other easements then the school board is entitled? Bingham: Mr. President. The question was phrased that does the City pay other landowners under certain conditions for easements. The answer I gave them was yes. It is not your policy versus our policy. Its just is that an occurrence? Based upon that occurrence being yes, then we (inaudible). Bird: Is that the policy of the City, Brad? Watson: As we've talked about before, we've never taken an easement until recently. [ think the only two that we paid for were approved last Tuesday night. Up to that point, I don't know. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9. 2001 Page 11 Bird: Okay. Mr. Smith, do you agree with that? Okay, I just wanted to (inaudible). Corrie: Just to make sure I heard. You're talking approximately 50 percent of the appraised value which is (inaudible)? Bingham: Mr. Mayor, correct. The land, we paid I think 33, 33 5 roughly nine months ago. The appraiser that you're utilizing has contacted the school district and I gave him the (inaudible) information. De Weerd: Mr. President. Bird: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I thought I noticed somewhere in your notes that you like to deal with all the municipalities the same. Have you had this situation occur with Star, Eagle, or Boise? Bingham: Mr. Mayor, Councilman de Weerd. No. you are the, I would say the first of the positions that we will be taking with those other municipalities. This is probably a rare instance. I will grant that. Generally when we would acquire the school site, these lines are generally in. It just happens to be what I would consider a primary trunk line with no direct taps into it. so this is the first instance. However, we will be advocating that other municipalities be also treated in the same fashion. I think you need to understand where historically, the background is coming from. In talking to the municipalities, in terms of cooperative efforts, municipalities and staff hands are usually tied in that we come in. We look like a developer. We're treated like a developer. The books for the fee structures are simply opened up and we're quoted fees that must be paid by the school district for any and every activity. There is really never any ability to discuss you know can we trade one cost for another cost in the name of the greater public benefit? Because, municipal ordinances really don't and probably shouldn't allow that type of discretionary latitude, the school district is simply saying this is not our policy but procedurally we're going to start asking for --. The requests come to us weekly. It comes from cell towers. It comes from Qwest. It comes from Sprint. It comes from United Water, every utility company you can think of and in many instances, up to a third of the site may easily be encumbered with these easements. It gets to be a very difficult thing for us to deal with. Yet, we feel that we have a responsibility to work within the public agency sectors. We do seek reimbursement and have received reimbursement from the phone companies asking for easements. (inaudible) De Weerd: However, the for profit, not necessarily another taxpayer entity. That is a little bit different. Do these other municipalities ask you to pay for hookup fees and running lines through and to, or to and through the property just like you're saying you'll be charged on this property? (inaudible) reductions? Bingham: Mr. President, Councilman de Weerd. The requests do come from the municipalities. We have been able to work with, in Boise, I was able to work Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 12 construction agreements with United Water in terms of installing the lines (inaudible) in exchange for that. Again, United Water may be considered a for profit company. We have not had this specific opportunity to work with any other city or the county in a similar situation. But we do get the same requests for trunk line fees, sewer assessment fees, latecomer's fees. All of those traditional things which would be anticipated quite frankly that all the municipalities have had their ordinance structures to (inaudible). De Weerd: We're not asking you for anything extraordinary and in the past we haven't paid for easements, just the 2 that we've recently approved. Its not like that is for granted and that's now a policy. Actually, when this went to the school board, we hadn't ever paid for an easement. You said that they were under the impression that we normally pay for easements and that's why they're asking us to pay for that? Bingham: Mr. President, Councilman de Weerd. The question was, has the City paid in the past. The answer I gave them was yes because I understood (inaudible). All of that being said, it is my perception that the sewer was placed on the southern boundary of the drain ditch because it was in the City's best financial interest to place the sewer there. It required the least number of crossings for the canal. The question simply arises, is why is it not on the northern side of the canal where the developer would have, where the developer could pay for part of the easement that would accrue him. Capital improvement, it does shift as it goes west on our property, the canal moves. The property line comes over. I believe there was a conscious and probably justifiable financial decision to place it on the southern side of the property. I believe all of that planning, if you will, was transpiring while we were in the process of acquiring the land. I don't think any of us missed an opportunity to communicate. It's simply, when we acquired title to the land we were approached by your engineers and the discussion then came forth. (inaudible) a timing situation. Having, again, said all of that, I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the philosophy that taxpayers money for the school district which goes well beyond the impact areas for the City of Meridian should be used to acquire land to give land to the City of Meridian. I would have the same consideration if I was talking to the City of Star, Eagle, or (inaudible) in Ada County. We respond to the concerns of a much larger tax base geographically. That's one of the fundamental concerns that the school board will have is how do we justify that? That we're supporting the growth efforts of an individual municipality? De Weerd: Mr. President, I just have one more thing. I think that argument was used when you asked for your variance for the landscape at Meridian High School. I know that Council was very sympathetic to charging another taxpaying entity for that kind of landscaping and you claimed the hardship for that. So, you know the City was acting in good faith to another taxpaying entity. But that is not reciprocated. I guess I don't understand that philosophy. Bingham: Mr. Mayor, Councilman de Weerd. I do not believe alternate compliance is a material variance. There was no concession granted under the landscape ordinance that I'm directly familiar with. There was simply an alternate way to comply to (inaudible) the appropriate number of shrubs and stuff around. But I don't believe that we came out Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 13 of that saying, oh we're substantially ahead of the game. I do have to (inaudible). A similar discussion has occurred almost with every single municipality, by boards that indicate that alternate compliance or compliance with a variance is somehow a concession granted to the school district. Variances are granted across the board to developers. I'm not sure --. I would hate to be in the mindset that I had to view a variance as a I owe you that I may owe some municipality. That would concern me because our goal is to comply, but to look at our use in a little bit in a context than traditional commercial development. We're not necessarily taking exceptions to any of the ordinances but sometimes in the applicability. That's where we try to move it around. I may be misspeaking but I don't believe, I'm certainly not under the impression that a great deal of non-compliance was granted to the --. De Weerd: But I don't think it would be an effort for an I owe you but I do know that was part of the discussion and the concern with Council at the time. Since this was not a usual procedure or policy to take for easements, the school district at that time was asking for something extraordinary of the City of Meridian in asking for payment for that easement. Bird: I think that we're probably talking to the wrong person. I have had conversations with one of the school board members. He was under the firm belief that we had been paying for our easements. I asked Mr. Smith to call the gentleman and let him know what our policy was. I don't know if Gary ever got a hold of him or not. He did. So, I think we're probably beating up on the wrong guy right now. De Weerd: As usual. Bingham: Mr. President, Council members. I do feel it necessary to tell you that we are trying to formulate policy strategy that addresses this type of an issue. You need to understand as yet, another public entity, you have every right to formulate your policy and your statement that you will not pay for easements. Please be aware that we are contemplating the same type of policy actions that say we will not cart blanche, give land to any other public agency. So, we're --. I'm not saying we're going to come to loggerheads but we are trying to drastically improve our procedures and policies up to a fashion that it's commensurate with the other public agencies that we all have to deal with. That job is incumbent upon myself, to bring us up to a level of accountability, I guess. Therein may lie some interesting discussions in the future. Again, it's just our desire to step up to the plate as a corporate public entity. Bird: Any other questions for Wendell? Thank you very much Wendell, for coming. We appreciate it. Bingham: Thank you. Issue 2B Update on Law Enforcement Building Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 14 Bird: Council, as I requested that I forgot to put this on, between 2 and 3 we're going to have item 2B which was the update on the law enforcement building. I think Chief Worley is here to give us an update on how the constructions going out there. Worley: Mr. President, Council. (inaudible) discussion last week, we do an update on the way. Things are going along quite well. We had a pre-(inaudible) Captain Bowman. Bird: He went out. Corrie: Would you have Lieutenant Bowman come in? Bird: Go tell Sergeant Bowman to come in. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bowman: I went out today and took a few photographs of the construction. (inaudible). Bird: We're going to see a movie? Bowman: Just a few photographs here. Feel free to ask any questions too and (inaudible) this presentation. We are finally getting to see a little bit of construction out there at the site. We just have a signing place that shows me that we're finally on the right track. Bird: They have a foundation there. Bowman: This is a current photo of downtown Meridian. Anderson: There's Keith's house. Bird: Yes, there's my house. McCandless: Taken last week, no doubt. Bowman: Today (inaudible). The road is just about ready for asphalting. All the curbs, gutters, drains, hydrants, everything's in place out there. All the driveways are in place. (inaudible) asphalt show up any minute. The roadway is in good shape. This is a view of the- ***End of Side One*** Bowman: All of the foundation work appears to have been done. Bird: Is all the flatwork done and all the concrete poured? Bowman: Yes. It appears to be to me. From what I could see today, it- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 15 Bird: They've done a lot to it. Bowman: They have. I expect to see a building standing there in about another 4 weeks, 4 to 5 weeks, we'll see an actual building up there. Bird: They get that enclosed that soon. (inaudible) Bowman: The last construction meeting --, We have monthly construction meetings that we manage, the project manager. At that time, it was what 2 weeks ago? He said within 6 weeks we'll see the shell standing up and the steel. They're concentrating on those stairwells, the front one and the rear one. Those are the main supports for the building. Those will be up and the steel should be up, the mason should be out and putting up block. This is an artist rendition of what the completed facility will look like from the front. I don't know if you've all seen the sketches yet. This is looking at the front of it will look like. This is the main floor level here. We've got most of the patrol division and the records division on that main floor. Its hard to see this. Right over here Chief, is that where the (inaudible)? Right in this area here, we'll have an enclosed sally port to drive our vehicles in. Bird: For the people that don't know, the reason we're able to afford that is because we got a construction manager on board and he's saving us a lot of money. That was not in the --. In the original bid it was to be enclosed as I understand. Bowman: That's correct. Bird: But we saved enough money that we electrified both gates and enclosed the sally part. Am I not right? Bowman: Right. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bowman: That's true. We have electric gates on both --. This is the upper level plan. the administrative, chief's office, captain's, and the detective division (inaudible). This is a ground site plan. This is half of the ten acres. You see the canal divides the piece in half there. This is where the building is set, right in this area, parking here all around. Gates right here and here because we were able to save that money we'll have electric gates to control access to this rear part (inaudible). Bird: Captain, is that --. Is this what is all in this bid? The landscaping and everything to this point? Bowman: Yes sir. Bird: Okay. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 16 Bowman: (inaudible) Bird: So, we're coming from the east boundary down to the ditch, will all be landscaped, asphalted, ready to go? Bowman: Right. Anderson: Does that run all the way clear to Locust Grove? Bowman: Yes it does. They've got it blocked off down this end of Locust Grove comes through with barrels right now. They've got the asphalt cut off on Locust Grove ready to attach the new asphalt to it. It's just a matter of a few days before they get that asphalt laid out. Bird: So, once we get moved in there, we will have access to Locust Grove? Bowman: Yes. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Worley: There are actually three accesses. You can either way on Watertower, (inaud ible). Bird: Are they getting that road also, the one from Adkins down to Watertower? Is that getting paved now? Bowman: Yes sir. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Mr. President. Bird: Yes? De Weerd: Dave, are you going to do your dog training area then on the other side of the canal? Bowman: I'm not sure what the plans are for the dog training area. We're hoping, if I can get enough interest (inaudible) to maybe put out some concrete pads for the roller hockey kids. My son is into roller hockey (inaudible). I've had several of the parents, business people here in town that have expressed an interest in working to get businesses to contribute and to put a couple of pads out there for the roller hockey kids. De Weerd: That would be great. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 17 Bird: That sounds great. Yes, Mr. Kuntz? Kuntz: (inaudible) Bird: You are. Anderson: That new mower you've got- (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: That's going to be drought tolerant grass. Kuntz: With that answer in mind, I wonder if we can get a set of the landscaping plans (inaud ible). Bowman: I'll see you get them. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bowman: That's alii have. Bird: Well, it looks pretty nice. McCandless: It sure does. Bird: It's went up very good. Council, any questions of the chief --? De Weerd: Or a hallelujah? Bird: -- or our Captain? Yes, hallelujah. (inaudible) Anderson: Glad to finally see it started. Bird: Chief, you and the Captain got any comments or anything? Worley: Mr. president, no I don't have any. We're just happy to be moving along with (inaudible). The meetings with the construction people seem to be going very well. They're a very easy group to work with. De Weerd: What's the anticipated completion date? Bowman: The plans call for July 26th. De Weerd: By the end of the summer? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 18 Bowman: Yes. We'll be moving in, in the month of August. Currently, we're looking at different companies to provide new furnishings for the building, telephone systems and some of the other non-contract issues. McCandless: So, they think they'll have the roof on and covered over the winter so they can work on the interior? Bowman: That's the plan according to the schedule. Bird: That was what my (inaudible). If they get that done, you'll probably beat that July date. You'll probably be moved in, in July. Corrie: Unless it starts snowing tonight. Bird: If it starts snowing tonight then we've got to (inaudible). They've got weather dates on the schedule. I can guarantee you that. Anderson: Yes they do. Bird: Okay, anything else? Thank you very much gentlemen. We appreciate it. I wouldn't mind, if you guys wouldn't mind doing this on a monthly basis for the next couple months. See how it's coming out, keep us updated. Mr. Berg, will you see that that gets on ou r workshop again? Just a little short --? Berg: Yes. Issue #3 Discussion of employee health benefit package Bird: Okay, item No.3. Discussion of employee health benefit packages. I think we've got a couple of young ladies here that's going to take care of this for us. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Coba: (inaudible). My name is Trish and I'm with Marsh. I work with the committee to develop their employee benefits. Sorry. We review this package every year and develop a report that goes to the committee. This year, one of the things that we looked at is in the current cost of the current program within the dual option, between the traditional and PPO plan was going to take a 36 percent increase under the traditional and the PPO plan was going to take a 29 percent increase. After discussing this with the committee and the utilization and how we could come up with alternatives, the committee came to the conclusion to offer option 2, to the employees which would lower the deductibles on the traditional and PPO plans and remove the buy down. Skeggs: Do you want to explain why you looked at removing the buy down? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 19 Coba: Actually, something that is actually in legislation and we will have to adhere to over the next couple of years, will be the privacy regulations under (inaudible). Currently under the administration of the buy down, 2 things. When we looked at the renewal, we looked at how much money we were spending on the buy down. Then we would add that to the total cost of the program. It actually significantly increase what we are currently doing. The second thing is we have to be very careful that because of what we need in order to administrate the buy down, we actually get explanation of benefits from individual (inaudible). Those explanation of benefits actually have their personal health information descripted on the EOBs. Under the privacy regulations that will be something that will violate that regulation and you will have to obtain written notification and authorization from those employees to obtain that packet. We're seeing this, we had that discussion and everybody agreed that the best recommendation of the course of action would be to remove it so you didn't have to deal with it on (inaudible) basis. Overall, that reduced the premiums of the traditional and PPO plan design of what we would incur in costs. At that point in time, the only remaining discussion was left with the committee on how they wanted to distribute the employer and employee contributions. Skeggs: In the memo that I sent you, I kind of went into detail of what the differences of the programs we're going to be, currently have. As Trish said, the deductible, currently was a 500 and 1,000. So, eliminating the buy down, we looked at an option of reducing that to 250, 500 where it wouldn't have a significant, you know big impact on the employees. Also, the prescription drug benefit which is significantly high, that's raising the cost of our program, is going to be a 1020 no matter what program you choose, the traditional or the PPO program. The mail order will be 3 co-payments no matter what. You can get a 90-day supply. It'll be for convenience wise but you're still going to pay for the 3 co-payments. The accident benefit went away. It wasn't getting a high utilization for that. Then the other difference is the wellness program will now be subject to deductible and co-insurance with no maximum. The PPO program is currently $20 for the wellness benefit and that's not going to change but on the traditional plan it was $125 maximum per individual for the program. So, now there's not going to be a maximum. We've had individuals complain about that because they went and had a physical and tests that came out to 500 and the plan only paid $125. That'll be a significant difference on that. The committee met over several times trying to discuss and decide what we wanted to do. Then the back of the memo I gave you a sheet that kind of broke it out for PPO and traditional that accounting had put together. Basically, off to the side was the difference in the dollar impact of what the employee would be paying. If you look at the PPO, because right now current employees pay 100 percent for dependent care and they pay 750 for the medical. So, we looked at, if we asked them to pay --. The City would pay 80 percent for the dependents and the employee would just pay 20 percent if they enrolled their dependents. Then the differences on the side would be the dollar difference. Accounting had broke it out from PPO to traditional. As you can see, traditional is a little more but it would also maybe encourage employees to consider enrolling in the PPO plan which the premiums are significantly less. For example, if you look at an individual, self, spouse and children. If they enrolled in the PPO plan, then they would only have to pay 68 cents more than they're paying now for that program. But, if they opted to continue, then they would have to pay $11.24 Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 20 more. That would give them their choice. For those individuals, we do have a few individuals that enroll in the medical and don't choose dependent coverage for their dependents in the dental program, so they would have to pay a higher portion of the medical unless they decided to add the dental. We also offered on a pre-tax basis, the premium only with no cost to the employee, so we kind of want to encourage the employees to do the pre-tax dollars because it's going to be less. Also like with their deductibles, since we're going to eliminate the buy down, that maybe if they move their deductible every year and put it through the premium only to just spread across the whole year there's going to be a cost savings. I think the (inaudible) actually like 26 percent, something like that. There's a savings. So, it would be significantly less. If somebody's paying 11 24 there's not really going to pay. They're going to pay less than they do with the PPO. So, the committee voted and we didn't get the full support of the committee but it was like 4 to 2. So, that's what we opted to do. Currently the union as well is on an 80 20 program. That's what we negotiated with them. Looking at, if we made changes to the City to administer the (inaudible) for accounting purposes and stuff, it would also be easier if everybody was on the same program. We do have the choice though, if you didn't want to make the changes to the plan as far as leaving the 750 the same. Then also letting employees continue to pay for the dental. We still could do that. I had Bill look at that to see what the difference would be for the union. In his interpretation as a union contract. He said well we had eliminated the me too clause, therefore they agreed by eliminating that to do the 80 20. we could have a different deduction amount for City employees. Really, this is what, you know we choose, but its really up to you. If you want to keep it the same, we have the money to cover that or if you want to do the 80 because the money that we're saving from the buy down would cover for this year the difference of the premiums that we're suggesting. So, we could keep it- Bird: Pauline, what was some of the opposition? You said it was 4 to 2 vote approximately. What was some of the opposition to --? Skeggs: Just that we're making some changes to the program because we have to but we're still trying to keep a competitive packet but because we're not leaving the packet the same as it was before that we could ease into slowly. Then tell the employees we're making some changes. We're eliminating the buy down and doing the prescription drug 10 20 but we're going to leave what you're currently paying alone this year but informing the employees that it would probably change next year more than likely. Trying to ease them into that change instead of saying you know we're going to do it all at once. Anderson: What was the committee's recommendation on the Blue Shield proposal? They just didn't like it? Skeggs: Well, to leave it the same? Anderson: On this other sheet. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 21 Skeggs: Blue Shield, they came in 20 percent higher than Blue Cross, this current program. Coba: It was the traditional plan only and the committee felt that there was a certain satisfaction offering the dual option (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Coba: One of the things that helped in our renewal discussion is that Pauline actually initiated an employee survey. So, prior to discussing the renewal, we discussed the employee survey results. Questions that were asked of the employees based on their satisfaction of the plan. what they felt that they (inaudible). The recommendation before you matched those of the responses of the employee survey. Skeggs: The employees actually wanted to pay between 30 and $50 for family coverage. Coba: Some of them will only pay between 50 and 70. Bird: That's cheap insurance. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: These employees don't know how lucky they've got it. (inaudible). So, the committee is recommending option 2? Skeggs: Yes. Bird: We need to get this on and get it --, When does this take effect? Are we under the fiscal year? Skeggs: January first. Bird: January first? Skeggs: January first but we'd like to start open enrollment the first week of November. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Any questions for the young ladies? De Weerd: Mr. President. Bird: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 22 De Weerd: [ think that when the subject came up during the budget hearings, I think it was Councilman Anderson that suggested to bring this out to the employees. So, it was brought out in the form of a survey? Skeggs: In the survey. Then also what we plan on doing, I'll send a memo. Then I will be meeting with the department employees. [ discussed that with the department heads today, to explain the changes and why. Then this will be done before November's (inaudible). That way they'll have a chance to discuss you know the specific changes that we're going to (inaudible). We plan to still go with the departments and have individual department meetings. De Weerd: This will be easier to explain than it has been in the past. Anderson: I think this is on the right track. I mean, we as employers, just continually every year keep seeing these huge increases in the cost of providing these benefits. The way we're doing that now is that we're involving employees and showing them what those costs are and the pure simple fact of the matter is we only have x amount of money. We can either pay that in benefits or you can pay it in salaries but you can't pay it in both. So, this is involving them and letting them choose the options they want and still get the coverage they want but keep our premiums somewhat manageable. [ think this is a good situation. With Pauline's help to go then to the employee groups and explain it, I think that will be very beneficial to the City. Corrie: Put this on the 23rd agenda, does that give you enough time? I think everybody will be here that night. Bird: Anderson won't, but that's okay. Corrie: You wont be, Ron? Anderson: I'm gone (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: I was trying to - (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: You bet. De Weerd: Well, thank you for that. Bird: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. De Weerd: And the rest of the committee. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 23 Bird: Yes, the rest of the committee. Gary and Janice and Will. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Issue #4 Discussion of future phases of Bear Creek Park improvements Bird: Okay, next item is a discussion of the future phase of Bear Creek improvements. Mr. Tom Kuntz. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Okay, they're going to come up and explain some stuff to us? Okay, we'll let them. Schultz: Good evening Mayor, Council, Shari, Staff. I'm Matt Schultz. This is Greg Johnson from West Park. I actually called a meeting tonight. Thank you for letting us slip in tonight. We came to talk about the future phase of Bear Creek Park and I thought first we might go over where we are on the park and give you an update. I guess, technically it isn't a City park yet but it will be fairly soon. 18.6 acres, we are about three quarters of the way done with the sprinklers. The paths are in. The parking lots are in. The parking lot lights are in. De Weerd: Did you bring pictures? Schultz: I apologize for not being as prepared as my previous, my predecessor. It changes everyday. It's hard to keep up. We're making good progress. It should be green within 2 weeks if the weather holds up. We're going to plant seed starting on Thursday. The trees on Saturday. We should be --. The ball fields are going up as we speak, the backstops, the (inaudible). It probably wont be ready to play on this year with the weather but definitely in the spring. (inaudible) should have a big park fairly soon. Actually, in a couple weeks. The pathway is (inaudible). (inaudible). It's a good size and length. I think it's a good representation of what the City of Meridian I believe is pushing for in the future which is around a 20 acre community park which has all the amenities, ball fields, a fairly good sized playground area, basketball courts, restroom and a shelter. We don't have right now, in the funding that was approved, the playground, the basketball courts, the picnic area and the restrooms aren't funded as of yet. I did go through with preparations for this meeting, which is a good bit of history for me as to where we're at in terms of costs for the park. I thought it might be good for you guys too to see where we're at on that, kind of see (inaudible). Bird: this is a pretty good cost. 1.4 million is what is going to develop this. When we're done, we've got the 2 ball fields. We've got the playground equipment and I don't know what grade of playground equipment. Are we going to be like Tully Park? Is that what its going to be Tom? We're going to have a basketball court like Tully Park? Or are you going to have it like Chateau? Kuntz: Chateau. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 24 Bird: Chateau? Okay. Schultz: Tom and I were discussing the overall costs. (inaudible) around 75,000 is what it comes out to, roughly, give or take (inaudible). We're real comfortable with these costs. The only 2 costs I don't have a hard number on are the restroom and picnic shelter. The estimates (inaudible). We're confident (inaudible). I'm really pleased with the progress with the park and how quickly its come together. I think it's a good representation of the public and private partnership that the City needs and the development community needs to make sure these things happen because these do benefit our subdivision (inaudible). We also believe that the City of Meridian as a whole as well. We would like to see, if we could for this to be 100 percent, for the lack of, (inaudible) an enjoyable experience for us and for us to maybe even do it again on a future project for the City of Meridian to come up with the rest of the money to finish this thing off and make a complete park as soon as we can. I know it's your intention to do so, but of course we'd like to see the next to impossible. I know Tom's not (inaudible). Johnson: We've been beating on Tom for the money and he says we need to come and ask you. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Schultz: (inaudible) land acquisition is one facet of it as well as (inaudible). We would like to see this placed in the priority situation given the fact that it's a nice park. It's a good location and it'll have all these amenities that (inaudible). Bird: Let me ask you a question, Greg or Matt. Whichever of you want to answer it. If we was to find the dollars, which I doubt we can but, could we take any, --. By not moving your equipment off site or anything, just continuing on with this future phase costs, the 283,000 can we save any? Schultz: You know, we think so in the restrooms and the picnic shelter. Although we don't have a design, if we could simply use what was used in Tully Park, if that was adequate or something like that. We could firm up those numbers fairly quickly if we didn't have to go out to a design person and actually draw something new. If we could simply put that in the area that we have. Tom may have some suggestions that way. Bird: I will guarantee we can take 3,000 out of the basketball courts. Then we're getting down to that (inaudible). Schultz: I don't know what your funding is like this year. We kind of wanted to discuss what the possibilities were. When the money could come. We've had a number of the neighbors, neighboring subdivisions around ask when it's actually going to be finished, when they can start using it. you'd be surprised how many walkers there are on the sidewalks already. They're enjoying it already. One of the things that we can do --. I've discussed this with my partners and that is if we could get funded by June, we would go Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 25 ahead and put in the playground equipment and the basketball courts now and wait for payment on that until June 2002. Bird: How about, Greg, I think being a park, the major thing that we have to look at as a developer and as a City too is the restrooms. We're going to have people out there, it would be pretty nice to be able to go. I'm sure the houses you sell around there aren't going to want to open their restrooms. Schultz: No, that's true. Bird: How much do you feel that, how many square foot is in the Tully Park restrooms? Tom, do you have any idea? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Schultz: Does that have the picnic area attached? Bird: No, it don't. Schultz: There are a couple built around with that. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Go ahead. Kuntz: (inaudible) would not want to put a combination shelter restroom in that particular park because of the (inaudible) restrooms by itself out there. (inaudible) I think it would probably be more economical to put up a pre-fab shelter and restroom separately. I think we can come up with a plan without having to (inaudible). Johnson: Well, that all saves. If we have something that everybody's happy with without designing it, we can put another plan on that piece of ground without a problem. Bird: I think we would too Greg and I would really like to see if we cant work some way out. We've got until June, you say? You'll go ahead with this and if we pay you back by June? Johnson: The only thing I can fund is the 72,000 for the playground and basketball courts. The other things are, if you're going to fund them, we would have to be paid when the contractors are done with it. Bird: The picnic shelter and the interior sidewalks, I think we could maybe get by. I think the restrooms we cant. You plan on having softball leagues out there next year don't you Tom? I just don't think we can do it- (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 26 De Weerd: As long as we get a good warranty on it. Bird: The basketball courts, how big is that? Johnson: It's around - Bird: How many square feet? Johnson: (inaudible). I believe it's 45 by 100 (inaudible). Bird: 45 by 100? Johnson: Yes. Bird: What thickness of concrete do you use? Johnson: (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We can't make any decisions tonight, Greg but I agree with you. I would, my personal opinion, I think of the future phase costs I think number one has to be the restroom absolutely, especially if we're going to have ball players and stuff out there, people. The picnic shelter, I believe we can probably do later, even though it would be nice. The interior sidewalks, the basketball courts and the playground equipment would be real nice but --. If we was to decide that, could you take you 72,000 and come down to the 125 and get it done. Johnson: I can go like, and my partners feel like the playground and basketball courts are an amenity that really benefit us. Bird: Okay, I understand. Johnson: There's reasons to do those even though --. Not having the bathrooms is a real negative for us. Although we feel like - Bird: The people you're going to be drawing, that the park is going to be drawing is going to have their houses there. They can, you know it's going to be neighborhood. Johnson: (inaudible) portable toilets there until we get the others. Bird: I mean, the benefit to your sub is the little people that live within it that if they had to run to the restroom that they could run home real fast. Johnson: Sure. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 27 Bird: I appreciate that. Johnson: To us, the extra interest expense and stuff that we would incur doing it now will well be worth it from what we would benefit from sales. Bird: Okay, can you get with Tom, Matt or you get with Tom, get an absolute what we need for a restroom? Then you're in the business, you can get us a cost, a good cost. I mean, you can get us a drop-dead cost. Johnson: We'll get it bid out if we have a design today to know exactly what the cost is. Bird: And get us a cost, yes so we could look at it. Johnson: We will save some money doing it now, if we've got going now rather than tearing up lawn and stuff next spring. We do feel important that the restrooms would be there before, probably June, before (inaudible). Bird: Council, Mr. Anderson, you surely have had something to say. Anderson: Yes, I surely do. I don't think there's any question that the Council would like to see, you know the park finished. We'd like to see all of our parks finished but the bottom line is we don't know if you guys have been involved in any of the discussions but Meridian does not have an abundance of money. We don't just have an extra $250,000 that we can go out and finish this park because we want to because it's a nice thing to do. We went through the budgeting process, we allocated every penny that we could to the departments and we don't have any extra money. At this point, I think if the decision is made that we want to finish this park, then its got to be something that Tom finds in his budget and cuts something else out of his budget because I don't know where we're going to just come up with anymore money to fund these additional projects. We also have a parks and recreation commission that worked with Tom to help set those priorities and things like that. So, we're looking at it community wide and not just at this one particular project and we've spread the funds that we do have out over several different projects. I would not be in favor of authorizing any work to be done on the hope that we can magically find some more money and pay it in June. Johnson: I understand that. I guess our thinking on it would be that it would be better to have one finished one that the community can use and that before we start into another one and have partial things that we could use. If we could have another one completely done, that the community could start using, I think the voters would say they would rather use one right now than to wait for 2 or 3 to be in partially. Maybe that's, maybe we need to take a sampling of that see if that's (inaudible). Bird: Go ahead, (inaudible). Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 28 Corrie: If that be the case then we've got to be thinking that it's going to be the benefit to the community. Its not going to (inaudible) so talking about restrooms they can. It's not just going to be yours. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: You've got to really think if that. Ron's right, whether we're going to be able to come up with that extra money. It's going to do some scratching. It's got to come out of that budget because we're pretty tight right now. I understand what you're saying but we do need to look ahead a little bit here. Anderson: We've talked about the same issue as you and getting usable space and in our other plans, maybe you're not familiar with them but we are getting usable space in those other plans. A park, in my mind is something that's always in progress. There's something that you always want to add another amenity to it. you want to add more parking. You want to add more shelters. You want to add more bathrooms. At least that's how it seems working with Tom anyway. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: If we put everything that was on this list, I guarantee you next year Tom will be back here with 5 more amenities that he wants to add into this park. De Weerd: I don't see bleachers. Anderson: I understand. I mean, this is pretty self-serving interest that you guys are here for because you've got a project all around this and that would help to fill that project. But we are looking at this community wide and we're trying to build parks community wide. We feel like the money that we put forward so far in this project this year is a good start. Johnson: Okay, so, shall we keep coming back hammering or should we wrap it up with what we have, get it green and just plan on that being what its going to be for a year or two? I'm looking for some direction here. De Weerd: Mr. President. Bird: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: At this point, not having Tom's budget in front of us, I anticipate that (inaudible) on the agenda and what you were going to ask for maybe he's actually looked at his own budget and knows if he can or cannot make it work. Do you have any insight to add to this Tom? Kuntz: (inaudible) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 29 Bird: Well, Tom, let me ask you a question. You know we said it was 1.3 million for the 56 acres for the fiscal year last year. How much --. Are you going to use all that this year in the 56 acres? Kuntz: (inaudible) Bird: You have no guess? Kuntz: Chateau came in below. The skate park came in well over. The County Highway District is requiring that (inaudible) sidewalk in all along Ustick Road right now. (inaud ible). Bird: The only thing that I hate to see a park open. I mean, I can do without the playground. I can do without the basketball courts but I hate to see a park open without restrooms. We just --. Especially if you're going to use it at all. De Weerd: Mr. President. Bird: Yes? De Weerd: I guess I might suggest that Tom look at this, maybe even let Stacy look at what we have in impact fees. We can't take any action on this tonight anyway. Maybe he can come back next meeting (inaudible). Bird: In the mean time, can you, if Tom was to give you a size of restroom can you give us a pretty good cost? Johnson: Is that within 7 days or so? Bird: Get us a pretty firm cost? Johnson: If we could get that Tom by Thursday. When's your next Council meeting? De Weerd: Next Tuesday. Bird: No. How about the following week? Johnson: We could have it the following --. Bird: That would be the 23rd. Okay. Anything else? Johnson: If you have time there's 5 items that I brought. De Weerd: 5 items? Johnson: No, 5 small things that --. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 30 Bird: Okay, go ahead. Johnson: Actually, Councilman de Weerd asked me the other day what I would recommend to encourage developers to do these kind of parks. I kind of thought through that process and I have some things that I think would, if the Council, in doing these could look at. It possibly could encourage this. This is --. I'm talking about these larger parks that community, 20 acre to 40-acre parks. We might, in that also consider 5 acre to 10-acre neighborhood parks, would be larger than the typical neighborhood parks but provide an amenity within a section that could be walked to as opposed to --. These larger parks, a lot of it's going to be traffic generating trips and that (inaudible). A ball field could generate quite a bit of traffic. We may look at the need that developing more of the smaller as well as the regional to cut that down. Those are issues that you can decide on. Probably the biggest thing in, you know you've all donated to various things, whether it be Bronco Athletics or whether it be to your favorite church organization or whatever. But, when you go through a gift process, in order to want to do it, there has to be a wonderful feeling at the end that something great was accomplished, something really good came out of it. whatever you structure to encourage it, whoever does it has to have that feeling that they really are doing something (inaudible) and it is worth while. You know, we're all, developers are economically driven. If there's incentives such as maybe density type considerations. Maybe treating it similar to a PUD where the park becomes a credit for the open space and landscaping and that that you would have in a community. Then maybe letting that project add some apartments or commercial area that they wouldn't have had under their zoning and that. Maybe a formula or a system that they would know about coming in that if I propose this, these are things that I would be able to expect out of that and not have to go through a really battle, so to speak, to achieve them. Maybe some type of a fast track approval process and plan review process. If they were doing this type of other project that it would be an incentive that way. Time is money on these projects. If there's a certain amount of time that can be saved by doing that- ***End of Side Two*** Johnson: -- a community park that benefits a large area, the impact fee reimbursement should be clear to that particular (inaudible). Maybe it impacts 3 miles, circle or whatever it impacts. Those impact fees should be able to be, to reimburse the actual cost, not the gift of the land or anything like that. But, if they actually improve the whole project, those improvements could be reimbursed for the development costs. If that was clear-cut and simple, I think more developers would step up to say that's something that I would like to do. We've had a lot of fun with this, seeking donation of trees and doing this with the By Scouts. Elroy has been terrific to work with the Boy Scouts on it. There's 3 or 4 scouts working on the Eagle project. They're tree planting. They've been wonderful in teaching them the process. Apparently he's worked on these before and is very experienced with it and did a great job of it. (inaudible). Its been interesting for me to approach some of these guys that I've done business with and ask them to contribute trees. They had a few questions about that but --. You know most of them are very Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 31 willing, when they see that it is going to be a benefit to the community and --. A tree is a wonderful thing. You know, you plant it now and 100 years from now it's still providing shade and is even more wonderful than when you first plant it. We've had an enjoyable time doing that. De Weerd: You've been hanging out in the park too long. Johnson: That's right. It's been a warm summer. De Weerd: Trees are our friends. Johnson: If we can create some patterns of that I think we can get more of these win- win deals between private and the City. I would like to, in closing, ask one specific question that relates to me. It came to my attention when I asked Gary Smith to set up the reimbursements of the impact fees that that had not been included in the development agreement. Up until that time, I was under the impression that it was there. It's my fault that I didn't read it well enough to make sure that it was there. I just want to ask the City Council, if it was their intention? I know originally we had asked for impact fees in a larger area. I know that was denied but it was very much my understanding that we were going to be reimbursed impact fees. Stiles: So, it wasn't a matter of you weren't going to be charged, the builders weren't going to be charged them at all? I guess that doesn't benefit you at all? Bird: No. Stiles: If you could sell a lot saying that you wont have to pay that fee but you cant charge more for a lot then? Johnson: No. we were going to set it up to collect them from the builder at their closing of the lot. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Johnson: But, when it wasn't in the development agreement, we wanted to proceed with building permits. So, we told Gary that we would, the City would go ahead and collect it and I would talk to the City Council and make sure that that was their understanding. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, 326 lots. Stiles: I don't think that's any problem. Bird: It's not in the development --. What do we have to do Bill? We need your- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 32 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Why was it moved out of it? Nichols: I think just a one page separate agreement is fine rather than try --. Bird: Lets let the legal guy --. I hope we have some more like this that we get it done right. Nichols: Well, to back up, you remember that you came in and the suggestion issue was how this donation of a park was going to be handled in the written documents in order to allow Mr. Johnson's group to be able to legitimately claim the donation (inaudible). There were some significant stuff bounced back and forth. All I can --, I mean, I don't have any specific recollection after that. I know we did, when we sent those agreements back and forth, it seemed to me like the hearing was in December wasn't it? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nichols: -- just before Cherie and Tammy came on the Council. The hearing was in December but I don't think we got the annexation and stuff done until April or May. It took that long to do the different documents. Johnson: My notes say it was in April of 2000. Nichols: The only other thing I --. It's not an excuse, but Mr. Gigray was here in December. He got started on that stuff. Then I started doing it in February. I know that one meeting, April ih, I think it was, Eric Rostrum took for me because I had another commitment that I needed to make. There could have been some slip. De Weerd: It doesn't matter. Bird: How do we rectify it Bill? Nichols: We just look at the minutes. If there's a basis for saying that the impact, --. He gets credit by receiving the impact fees as they're paid as the lots are sold. Then, excuse me, building permits are sold. Stiles: You wont find that in minutes. It was an offset of the impact fees that was agreed to. I think this was a one-page agreement. Nichols: We do it by an addendum to the development agreement. Bird: That's all we have to do? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 33 Johnson: If the City doesn't want to go through the expense of collecting, after we do this, we could take what's been collected and we can simply collect those at the time we close the lots. Then you don't have to do the accounting on it. Stiles: That would work too wouldn't it? Nichols: President, Members of the Council. I think it has to still come to the City because otherwise we're going to create an audit trail. Bird: Yes we are. Anderson: I don't think its legal for anyone else to collect impact fees. Johnson: Lets just leave it that way. Nichols: It's got to come through us. Johnson: Okay. Bird: Okay, Mr. Nichols could we get this addendum wrote up so we can put it on the agenda for the 16th and it can be on the consent agenda. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: If you don't, no problem. I realize it would burden you. If that's okay with the Mayor. Corrie: Let me know Thursday. No later than --. Nichols: That's the only issue --. Corrie: I can put it on there and then (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Greg, I'm anxious to find out how this works for developers doing the park and stuff the way it did. I know that one that was done in Boise by Turnball was very successful. I hope this is successful for you guys too. This (inaudible) for your development. Johnson: You know, so far our sales are very good. We'll know through the winter here. The general market is a little bit down just because of everything that's happening in the world and stuff but, our sales look good. In this price range, I think it will do just fine. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 34 De Weerd: Greg, do you know, In Boise, do they have some kind of a policy that provides incentives or --? Johnson: I don't think so. I don't think they have yet. They have done it a couple --. Other than Dave's project, I - Bird: That's it. Johnson: -- I don't know of any that really --. Bird: I don't know of any other that's been done that way. Johnson: I think they've built the rest of the them but I think Dave's definitely saved them a lot of money. Bird: Yes, about 75 percent. Johnson: From the developer's standpoint, it gets built in the time your doing the project. So, that better. I thin we could be a pioneer and create something. De Weerd: Do you want to write it out? I mean, even in handwriting, you can find Shari to type it. Johnson: We could probably (inaudible). Stiles: You didn't even (inaudible) Johnson: No. Stiles: A lot of developers don't want the increased density. That doesn't seem to be (inaudible) Johnson: But, it's a choice. De Weerd: It's a thought. Johnson: If it were in the right location, apartments would make sense around a park. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Johnson: If it's fronting out on a main street, maybe you've got commercial. A walking type commercial development might work very well (inaudible) Stiles: That's what we took out of the planned development ordinance. That one part that was talking about that they could the density that would have been --. Say they have the 18 acres, then if they donate or give it at pre-development costs, then they Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 35 could take that 18 times 4 and intersperse throughout the development. But we took that out of the planned development because I probably confused you more than I helped you out there. I still think that's --. Because really there's no incentive in the planned development ordinance except to have commercial or retail or apartments as part of the development. Johnson: To do multiple uses. Stiles: Yes. Johnson: But not necessarily in increased densities. Stiles: No, and it doesn't even help for the school. But, it just seemed, --. I guess it didn't seem that important because we haven't seen anybody ask for increased densities. Some of them have their own little market and they want to sell those 80 by 100 lots for a hundred years. Johnson: But, if we're going to encourage mixed use, -- (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Thank you Gentlemen, very much. You will get back to Tom with the price on that-- ? De Weerd: So, Greg, we'll see that outline by the 23rd? Bird: By the 23rd? Johnson: Do you want this park done or do you want that? Bird: You don't have anything else to do, do you? De W eerd: Both. Johnson: I'll try to get it. Bird: Okay, while we're under parks on this issue, Mr. Kuntz, you've got a couple of other items. You want to go real fast here? Corrie: Just for your edification, you've just heard from the northwest 12 acres. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: You should have a memo in your packets. Bird: Yes we do. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 36 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: The first item is, the commission voted back in July to promote --. I have in here Name the Park Contest, but we discussed this at last nights meeting and it's not a contest. It's to promote Help Name the Park and had it set up with our last contact with the Statesman to run a big thing in the middle of August. She left town, so I've met with the new contact with the Statesman and he's ready to roll on this. I guess I wanted Council's approval. They kept the guidelines very simple and that is that they would like the name of the park to have some geographic or historical significance. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Ron: You Otter build a park? Bird: You Otter build a park. We need that sign. I just thought of that. Good job Ron. Ought to build us a park. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: The Commission didn't want any personal names? Ku ntz: Correct. Anderson: Keith Bird's Park. Bird: There's no way it would be Keith Bird Park. Anderson: So, are you looking for our approval that it not be a personal name? Kuntz: Yes sir. I'd like to go ahead and move ahead and get this out in the papers. De Weerd: It has to be a geographical significance. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Who's going to select the name? The parks commission? Kuntz: The parks commission will make a recommendation to the City Council. De Weerd: Pretty scary. Corrie: I think geographic (inaudible) is fine myself. Bird: I don't have no problems. I told Tom, I can name you a couple of people that I could put on that without no problem at all. But also I don't --. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 37 Corrie: If someone gave us 5 million dollars --. De Weerd: I think we'll learn a lot about our community with this contest. Anderson: It's not a contest. De Weerd: I mean, this - Kuntz: Help Name the Park. De Weerd: Help Name the Park program. Anderson: Competition. Stiles: Well, Greg let them name his dog over the internet. Bird: Council, I for one would say let's go ahead with the recommendation of the Commission. We're not making a decision, just giving you a few pointers. Anderson: I don't really have a problem with them naming it. I'm not sure they ought to even rule out names at this point. I mean, if they're the ones that are going to make the decision, then they take all suggestions. Then they pick whatever one is best. I mean, right now, they may just not be able to think anybody's name but somebody could throw a name out that they go, gees, yes that would be great. But, I don't care one way or another. Its sixes to me. If they're going to name it, whatever they want to do. Bird: Tammy? De Weerd: I don't have a problem with supporting the parks commission's recommendation. Bird: Cherie? McCandless: Nor do I. Bird: Okay. You don't? Corrie: I don't know. You make the decision. I'll put the input. Bird: Okay. Corrie: You'll get mine. Bird: Okay. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 38 Kuntz: The next item is on ACHD --. De Weerd: You can't put your name on there. Corrie: I don't want mine on there. De Weerd: No, I mean, you can put your name on your slip because they might --. Corrie: Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. I'll do it like a secret ballot. Kuntz: A write in ballot. The next item is ACHD is requiring us at this point to put in the sidewalk adjacent to Ustick Road. I've drawn up some maps and highlighted phase one. McCandless: Last time, you said that they were requesting. Kuntz: Well, it's in the staff recommendations at this point. McCandless: Oh, okay. Anderson: When you say sidewalk, is that one of those free floating ones out there? Or, is it a curb gutter sidewalk thing? Kuntz: It would be detached and would be contained in a berm so at the bottom of the page, you'll notice that on the Ustick Road costs, it includes the earth work for the beam at 28,500. Then a 5-foot wide sidewalk, meandering for a total of 52,140. Anderson: So, didn't we have a pathway planned around this anyway? Kuntz: Yes but we were not planning to build Ustick as part of phase one because it's quite a distance from --. Phase one is highlighted in yellow. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, Ustick is the long one. Kuntz: You can see, we're 390 feet away from there. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: If we're not developing along that (inaudible). De Weerd: I guess the question is, you know, as developers bring in plats, they don't ask them to build out all of the sidewalk in phases that they're not developing. So, why are they requiring that of the City? Anderson: I could see if they were asking for it up here on Meridian, but not down there. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 39 Bird: Well, they are asking for it along Meridian. Kuntz: Right. We're doing that. Bird: Then we're doing that. But, they're asking for all of this down here which we are not developing. De Weerd: (inaudible) not want to put in sidewalks on their park and ride? McCandless: Yes. Stiles: Because it was rural area. Bird: This is real rural area. Go out and - De Weerd: This is really rural. Bird: -- take a look at the weeds. Kuntz: Keith, we're not going there. Anderson: We'll just turn Keith loose on them at a meeting, Unidentified Speaker: Well, didn't this come up at the joint meeting with hem? Corrie: It came up after this meeting when I had personal conversation with 3 commissioners. They're willing to look at that --. De Weerd: A quorum? Stiles: Separately, you met separately. Corrie: We met separately. We didn't talk together but they're pretty much thinking about this. Bird: Their staff is probably doing like our poor staff has to. They've got rules and regulations they live by and --. Corrie: That's exactly what they said. Bird: -- then their staff has to go by them. The only way you're going to get it changed is go before them. I don't think its any problem but I don't think we should have to do it. De Weerd: But when we put in the water tank, they didn't ask for a sidewalk there. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 40 Stiles: They didn't even get to look at - Bird: They didn't even look at it. Stiles: -- didn't see it. De Weerd: Oh, it's too small? Stiles: No, they just - Bird: Gary didn't go to them. They don't even know its there. Anderson: He got his building permit from Daunt. Bird: He got his building permit from Daunt. He didn't even get a building permit. Stiles: Well, they ought to at least consider that it's phased. I mean, we have worked pretty hard on their staff that if it's not in their 5-year plan, then they need to build it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: I have a meeting this Friday at 3:00 with Kristy to talk about the single load street north but also this issue. De Weerd: Also an impact fee, right? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Yes because right now the impact fees- Bird: Are you taking bets on that? De Weerd: the impact fees right now are 327 per acre. Stiles: (inaud ible) De Weerd: After the beginning of the year, they'll be 87 per acre. Bird: Yes. De Weerd: That is $14,000 difference. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: They were going to charge us on all 58 acres, whether you're phasing it or not? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 41 Bird: I'm sure they do. I can find out. Kuntz: When I asked the question, do you realize that we're phasing this, her response was yes, but its one single parcel. Bird: Sure. (inaudible) . I don't know about this. De Weerd: So, Bridgetower, which just came in, they're paying an impact fee on that whole thing? You know, Tom just said, they're charging the impact fee on the 58 acres because its one parcel. I just don't see them charging the developer. Look at Bridgetower, they came in right now for a building permit, they would have to be paying that 300 plus. Stiles: They pay it per building. They pay it per house. As they come in and get their building permit, the City collects that impact fee for them. De Weerd: Oh, per house. Stiles: Yes. De Weerd: So, it doesn't come up front? Stiles: No. I mean, they pay some. They'll make them pay some for a deposit for the light at Ten Mile and Ustick but other than that, the individual houses will have to pay. Kuntz: The parks commission last night recommended that we send a letter to ACHD staff requesting that we not pay those, or put in Ustick. Then that goes to ACHD Commissioners. That's the procedure that was explained to me by Kristy. Kristy, at your last meeting with them on that Monday, said to me, I cant believe your City Council would not want that sidewalk on Ustick Road. I said, well, you know that they want it there. She goes no, I just can't believe they don't. So, if I could just get some direction tonight for my meeting Friday. Bird: We want it but we don't want to have to pay for it. Stiles: You might refer them to the church across the street where they didn't ask for the sidewalk to be built. Kuntz: Why don't you come with me. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Its not that we don't want it Tom. I don't think it's appropriate to build to it until we develop that phase. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 42 Kuntz: There's no access to the park from that. Bird: Not only that, somebody could come in here and make a change. I mean, somebody come in here and donate something. De Weerd: There's 390 feet between here and here. Bird: I don't know why they would be (inaudible) Stiles: Maybe (inaudible) Kuntz: I ask her that. I said it's phased. She goes I know that but its one parcel. I said but (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: I take that as Council would prefer not to have it done in this phase. Bird: Absolutely. Corrie: They know it already. Bird: Absolutely. Kuntz: The second option, or item regarding the tiling of the drain ditches. I could draw this on the board but, I'll try and just be really concise. After the developer to the north told us we could not go up Meridian Road, across his property with the drain water, we met with the developer named Gary Lee from JUB to try and strike some type of a compromise. To make a long story short, if we would have been able to dump our water along Meridian Road up to the north of the white drain, our approximate cost to tile that just for that pipe would have been about $30,000. If we were to run our drain water across the middle of the park and up to our northwest corner, our piping cost, because we would have had to increase the size, would have been $35,000. The developer will grant us an easement to the north to the white drain if we agree to pipe 420 feet of the approximate 1400 feet to the white drain at a cost of $7,000. So, if you take the 30,000 to leave the plans the way they are. Add the 7,000 to come up with 37,000. We would be paying $2,000 more to keep all the farms downstream who've got flooded out, versus 35,000 to dump the water where we have the legal right to do it. The parks commission, as well as our staff feels like for the $2,000 difference, its worth going to the north to the white drain. Anderson: Why would the farmers be unhappy if you dumped it where we're legally allowed to? It shouldn't effect them. Kuntz: They would get flooded out. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 43 Anderson: Why would they get flooded out, if we're dumping it there versus up (inaud ible). Kuntz: Because then they get all the water, it floods the very downstream users. Where if we went to the north, they would never see that drain water. It would go straight to the white drain and be dumped in. Bird: You're going to the north anyway Tom. You're coming across here and then going up to the northwest corner? Kuntz: No, just straight across to that distribution point. Bird: To here? That's where we're stopping right there? Kuntz: That's right. Bird: Where are they getting flooded? On up to the west? Kuntz: Where your hand is over there. Bird: Then that part of Howell's development runs over there? Runs down there? Kuntz: It does, but we're talking about the farmers even further west. The reason we know this is because we went to a lot of work at the beginning to get all the farmers in the room at the same time with ACHD and all the players. I have notes from that meeting. That was the meeting where Howell's representative said yes, we can go to the north with water and they did an about face. From those meetings, it was very clear, in fact we re-visit it with Ken Ashenbury last week, to say its going to cost us 2,000 is it really important. He says it is. It's fairly complicated. I could come back at a later time and go into more detail but I don't want to take all your time. De Weerd: I think you have some other costs by relocating that pond and (inaudible) Kuntz: That would be the other issue is that if we choose to run all of our water out the northeast corner, then we would relocate the park to the middle south. Bird: Down here? Kuntz: Down to Ustick Road, is where we would run it. Yes. The middle of the park right against Ustick Road. So, there would be some additional costs as far as another concrete box, some additional piping. So, we actually could end up, if we did go the way we historically allowed to, we could actually be well over the 37,000. We've tried to weight this out very carefully because I certainly don't want to be spending more money if I don't have to. Bird: So, we're going to tile this ditch to here? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 44 Kuntz: Correct. Bird: Then we're going to take it up here to the --? Kuntz: No sir, just to there. Now, we will retain the historical drainage in that corner in case when phase 2 comes on we need to get that dump some drain water, some you know overflow out of the parking lot and the ball fields out of that corner. But, this project, this first phase we won't (inaudible) Bird: Okay, Tom, now, (inaudible). You're going to come here but you're not going up to the northwest corner? Kuntz: No because we're not sending any drain water across the middle of the park. Bird: So, you're taking the drain water and coming straight up here to the white drain? Kuntz: Right. So, across the middle of the park is only live water that the farmers are entitled to with no drain water which is what they're getting both now. They're getting drain water and live water. Bird: What we are doing is basically taking care of the frontage along Meridian for Mr. Howell? Kuntz: No because we're paying 400 feet of that. From that point, where there's right now --. Bird: 400 feet from here, to here? Kuntz: Right. No, excuse me. Bird: That's not 400 feet. De Weerd: No, from the property corner. Kuntz: From the property up 400 feet. Then it's another 1000 feet (inaudible). Its another thousand feet up to the white drain that he's paying for. Bird: We're still taking care of a big chunk of his, his entry and everything. Kuntz: 400 feet. Why that's 400 feet is because there's an existing surface drain ditch already in place. So, we'll just pipe to that and dump into that. When he develops, he will pipe the rest of that thousand feet up to the white drain where it will run here. Bird: Let me ask you a question. We're going to drain our property, (inaudible)- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 45 Kuntz: North. Bird: We're not going to flood irrigate anyway? Kuntz: No. Bird: We're just sprinkler here. Why can't we just eliminate that ditch? Kuntz: Which ditch? Bird: The one that goes down the center? Kuntz: Because we have to deliver water to these farmers here. Legally we have to deliver water to that point. (inaudible) Bird: Yes, I know. That's what I'm getting at. Then why we are going up there? Anderson: So, we've still got to --. Bird: We've got to deliver water down there. Anderson: -- provide that ditch. De Weerd: A 12-inch rather than an 18-inch. Anderson: Yes, but that would still cost money. Kuntz: These are the 2 options that we have. Option one, is we could send our live water and drain water over to the western boundary where we would have to deliver it legally to this farmer. Then dump the rest of the drain water out here. Then it comes out here and ends up flooding these farmers out. Bird: It goes through Howell's property again? Kuntz Through his property and then out and floods the farmers. That would cost us 35,000 to do that pipe. Anderson: In 18 inch or 12 inch? Kuntz: 18 inch. Bird: Okay, let me ask you a question Tom. I'm probably confused. I probably haven't picked you up right. You're saying we've got to take the, -- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9,2001 Page 46 Kuntz: Live water. Bird: Well, we've got to take the 12 inches or whatever's required to get to that end, the live water. Kuntz: Correct. Bird: How are we going to have drainage? Where are we going to get drain water if we're sprinkling? Kuntz: The drain water? The parking lot. Bird: The parking lot can be --. They don't want the parking lot drain water. You and I sat in an EPA thing. They don't want that being dumped into regular --. Kuntz: I'm not sure if I understand your question. Bird: Where are you going to collect all of this drain water at? Anderson: Where's that coming from? Bird: Where's it coming from, all the drain water, if we're not flood irrigating? Kuntz: It comes from across the road, under the road. Bird: That's part of the live water. Kuntz: It's both. They're both there. Both the drain water and the live water come to our point on our property right here. Bird: The drain water from which (inaudible). Kuntz: Across the street. Bird: That drain ditch? Kuntz: From east of our park, across Meridian Road. Bird: From Boyd's property? Kuntz: I don't know if it's just from Boyd's but it comes from Boyd's property. Its drain water and live water. Anderson: What's drain water? Kuntz: Drain water is the water that has been put on the land and then run off. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 47 Bird: But it has to be flood irrigated. Kuntz: It's got to go somewhere. Anderson: Okay, but if we run this line north what can we run in that? Both flood and drain? Kuntz: We will run drain water only. Bird: You've still got --. Anderson: So, how much is it to run that line up there? Kuntz: 7,000. Anderson: 7,000. Then we still got to run this 12-inch line across here. how much is that? Kuntz: That is 30,000. if we upsize it to 18 inch it will be 35,000. Corrie: That's still (inaudible) Bird: It gets rid of this. Kuntz: That's right. Bird: But it doesn't get rid of this because we take it --. Where's Gary at or Brad? How do you --? Kuntz: I'm not doing a very good job of this am I? De Weerd: I would too. Bird: I'm getting more confused the more I think about it Tom. Kuntz: I could put it on the board. I did last night. I don't know if that helps or not. Bird: No, that's fine. I understand where you're coming from but I did not realize --. Gary, where does the drain water come across --? Is it where the pump is? Where they've got the pump? That drain water is coming across, Gary from Boyd's property? Smith: There's a ditch that comes out of Boyd's property across the Meridian Road and dumps into the drain ditch along the south boundary of the park property. Bird: The south boundary over here? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 48 Smith: Right along here. It gets to this point then it goes diagonal (inaudible), (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Then it comes back down to Ustick? Smith: Then it's piped. Bird: Then it's piped? Kuntz: Yes. Bird: Then why do we have to worry about dumping if its already being dumped off our property? Kuntz: Let me back up. The live water that we get on our eastern boundary is our water rights and all the downstream user water rights and Howell's water rights. So, we get it all right there. So, its not, it could be drain water but let me back up from what I said originally. It's all the live water. So, then at that point, we have to make a decision about what we're going to do with it. The way that the rotation works right now is the farmers get all the water for 3 days in a row. So, what will happen is we'll get our water rights every day because we need to water everyday. So, what will happen is if we dump on the days that we're not using our water, if we don't dump it to the north, then it will all be dumped into our northeast corner and those farmers downstream instead of getting x number of gallons every day will be, they'll get a lot more than they want during the daytime hours when we're not using it. Bird: Tom, let me ask you one question. We're going to use this, out of this live water but we're going to tile the ditch. So, how are we going to hook our sprinklers up to and have the pressure and everything? Kuntz: That box that's there now. Bird: This big box right here? Kuntz: That big box there. Okay, when the water comes into that, we will pipe from there directly into our pond. Our water rights, okay. Then with a 12 inch pipe we will deliver this guys water rights over to the western boundary with a 12-inch pipe. Then to Mr. Howell's property to the north, we will deliver 12 inches of water, which he is entitled to. Bird: That's right here. Kuntz: That's right. Bird: But, that's already in. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 49 Kuntz: No, that's a concrete ditch. Bird: That's a concrete ditch that all you have to do is cover it and put a concrete top on it, you've got it covered. Say, we get 72 hours of water, right? Kuntz: Right now? Bird: 72 hours of how many inches of water a week? Kuntz: 150, off the top of my head. Bird: 150 inches? Kuntz: Yes. Bird: Those 3 days that fills that pond up. You're not going to suck that much out of the - -. Kuntz: When we develop the whole park, we will. We need our water every day, not 72 hours. Bird: Well, yes, but you've got the --. That's what we built this pond for is to store it. Kuntz: But, we need the water every day to refill that pond, not just (inaudible). Bird: You won't right to start with. Ku ntz: What? Bird: You won't and there's another plan to put another pond down here, on one of the other phases, isn't there? De Weerd: No. Kuntz: No. Bird: Okay. (inaudible). Where's this going to drain to? Kuntz: That's going to drain into seepage beds, above ground --. Bird: Not back up to here though? Kuntz: It could but it's got to be filtered first before it can --. Bird: Yes. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 50 Anderson: So, where's this 400 feet of pipe? Is it from here to here? Or is it from here north? Kuntz: There north. Bird: It's on their property. Anderson: So, how much is it going to cost for us to tile from here to here? Where we're going to have to? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: Yes, we have to. That's included in that 30,000. De Weerd: Which we have to do anyway to get the water to Howell's anyway. Kuntz: We have to deliver this water. Bird: You have to deliver the water to here and you have to deliver it to this point. Anderson: We don't have a bid yet on what it's going to cost us? Kuntz: Yes. De Weerd: It's all figured into the 30,000 and 35,000. Bird: Is this dye in the wool bid? Or is this estimated bids? Kuntz: No, they're estimated by the engineer. Bird: With your luck in estimation, we better say it's more like 70,000. Kuntz: Well, what we're estimating the whole project's going to cost is about 100 to 120,000. that was our estimate when we went to bid the first time. That's what we were expecting to pay. That's with the concrete boxes that have to go in at all those points and everything else. But, when we had this meeting I wanted to get down to brass tacks of what --. I don't want to pay to put pipe on your property but, what it's going to cost for me to upsize my pipe and go to the west. Its 5,000 to go the west or 7,000 to go to the north. 2,000 difference, keep the farmers happy. We think it's worth it after all the discussions and meetings we've had with the farmers. Bird: Who is the biggest landowner that we're effecting out there? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 51 Kuntz: I would have to get my notes out. There was about 4 farmers, 4 or 5 at that meeting. Ashenbury was there because he's farmed our land and he knows how the water works downstream. He was very helpful. We've met with him 3 or 4 times. Bird: He's farmed practically every ground around there. He knows how that goes. Corrie: The first time we flood the Howell's, I'll catch it. Bird: Well, yes, you're definitely going to flood now but --. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: I asked Mr. Ashenbury that and he laughed at us. Bird: I was just going to say, start laughing. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: When would we install this pipe? Has Howell got all of his designed and approved? I hate to run pipe on somebody's property and then have them end up tearing it up or find out its got to go in a different location or something else depending on what he does with his property. Kuntz: Well, what he has in his hands now is an easement that Mr. Nichols prepared and he's ready to sign the easement if we're willing to pipe the 400 feet and dump it into the open ditch that's there now. It also includes 2 boxes that will go on his property that he's agreed to pay for as a result of a phone call I made last week to him. Like I said, I'm not going to take this to Council unless he'll pay to put those 2 boxes in which is $2,000. He said he would do it. Bird: We can't make any decision on this. Kuntz: Well, as soon as you give me an, you think its okay, then I'm going to move ahead with the easement. Then I would bring the easement back to the Council. Bird: Cherie, what do you think? Shall we proceed with the easement? McCandless: I'm not sure what I think Keith. I've been listening to you guys it seems like (inaudible discussion amongst Council) McCandless: I guess we should proceed. Bird: Tammy? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 52 De Weerd: No, (inaudible). Bird: Ron? Anderson: (inaudible) Bird: Mayor? Corrie: Absolutely. Bird: Go get the easement drawn. Kuntz: Okay. Bird: Okay, Tom, you've got one other item here. Kuntz: Yes. Bird: Can we make it short and sweet? Kuntz: It really pertains to the meeting at Storey Park tonight. I don't know if this meeting is the time or place but I think it would have been appropriate for Western Ada to get back with me and meet with me so I could have shown the difference. Bird: I don't disagree with that at all. Kuntz: (inaudible). You have 3 pages here. the first page is single entrance. So, there's only one way in and one way out of the parking lot. You can see the total number of parking spaces made available. The second would be one-way traffic with angled parking. On all of these, I believe Franklin Road is at the bottom of the page if that helps acclimate you a little bit. Anderson: What is --? Bird: You've got me so confused I don't even (inaudible). Anderson: Is this 18 spaces? Kuntz: 18 spaces, yes. Anderson: And then this one's 17? Kuntz: Yes. Anderson: Then what's the other one? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9,2001 Page 53 Kuntz: The other one is --. De Weerd: One's 23. Kuntz: 23 plus 3 handicap. Anderson: Then the correlation, this with the outside map? Kuntz: Correct, I'm sorry. Yes. Anderson: This is 23? Kuntz: Yes. 23 plus 3 handicap, next to the Chamber building. We've met with Lombard Conrad to make sure that's where they wanted it. They do want the handicap spaces there. There's 2 (inaudible). De Weerd: (inaudible) Anderson: Well, if I'm looking at this drawing --. Corrie: This is Franklin down here not Central (inaudible). Anderson: Franklin's down here at the bottom. Then when I turn the page- Bird: There's 16 spaces going in where this ground is that you want to get from Western Ada? Kuntz: Yes. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I think that would benefit everybody. Kuntz: That is planned as part of phase 2 at this point. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: This plan has been ran by the chamber? Kuntz: Yes, I ran (inaudible) the chamber and the board. Bird: They're familiar with it? Kuntz: They liked the landscaped island and they like the separation from the flow of traffic. Those are the 2 things that they liked, Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 54 Anderson: On the spaces, I don't know what the ADA requirement is but it would be nice if instead of trying to put --. You have 2 or 3 handicap spaces there? Kuntz: There's 2 there right now. There's shrubbery that can come out and (inaudible). Anderson: I would think that you might want one for people that are visiting the chamber office but then you might want one over here in this other corner close to your shelter. Kuntz: Yes, we're thinking probably a couple or 3 over there, actually. Anderson: So, kind of spread that out. De Weerd: But, you do need to work with the chamber on those 3 over there and not compromise their handicap. And, again, trying to dedicate those 12 parking spots. Kuntz: If you notice across the street, we're trying to do kind of a pullout to allow a couple of RV spots right across the --. Anderson: This? Kuntz: Yes. To allow maybe one or two RVs just to pull in there and go (inaudible). De Weerd: Are you (inaudible)? Bird: You'll have a dump there and everything? Kuntz: Actually, I've talked to Mr. Shawcroft and we're looking at that. He's not sure if there's enough space there. De Weerd: (inaudible) last night. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Dump and Meridian. Bird: Any questions for Tom regarding this? Anderson: I guess --. Just a comment. I like these additional parking space that you're trying to work with the western - *** End of Side Three*** Bird: They wanted to leave that --. Anderson: Leave it open? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9. 2001 Page 55 Bird: Leave it open so that they could have more access. Its pretty tough the way, and I know these are drawn. If you've just got one entrance coming in here to get into the swimming pool. I think that was their concern. De Weerd: I think its better. Kuntz: Safety wise, (inaudible). De Weerd: Oh, with the, yes, with the cars coming in there and the kids running across the parking lot to go to the pool. I've seen some near misses (inaudible). Anderson: That's the way I was thinking too was --. That's kind of a launching point for a lot of parades and stuff. Just trying to make some accommodations for vehicles with floats and trailers and stuff, to have some place to park or turn around - Bird: (inaudible). You've still got the big one up there. That's the dairy show parking lot. Kuntz: So, do I have a general consensus that this one that I showed you tonight that's on the map and is the last page on your packets, can we work towards getting the design that way? De Weerd: Yes, just that to the west of the road. Nothing to the east. Kuntz: Okay. McCandless: Tell me again, where the playground is. Kuntz: Here. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: Right where his finger is. De Weerd: Right where that road is being (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Much better than where its at now. Kuntz: Thank you. Bird: Okay, is that everything? Kuntz: Yes sir. Bird: Thank you. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 56 Issue #5 Discussion of transportation priorities (Transportation Task Force Report) - Gary Smith Bird: The next item --. De Weerd: And you're not ignoring me on that with the (inaudible) handicap spots as well as dedicating the 12 spots --? Kuntz: I'm not ignoring you on the handicap spots. I am ignoring you on the 12 other spots though. De Weerd: Well, don't because it has been a voiced concern of theirs. They did pay for putting that in there. So, you really do need to work out how you can dedicate those spots to, at least during the time, or at least work with their board and see what their recommendation is. Kuntz: If they're not concerned about having them dedicated and I guess, I'm thinking dedicating, either painting on the pavement or signage or something. I'm not talking about handicap, it's just the other 12 spots. If that's not a concern of theirs, is that all right? De Weerd: Yes. As long as you have dialogue- Kuntz: I don't know that its not. De Weerd: -- and make sure that you're both on the same page. Anderson: (inaudible) just want to have 12 slots reserved for people visiting their building? De Weerd: Well, the concern is people will think that's the shelter's parking and they still wont have any chamber parking there. Right now, as it stands, its separated enough that it looks like it belongs to the chamber. Taking that road off, you're really going to be funneling them into that parking lot. That's the main concern. Anderson: I would suggest signage. They have some over at the rec center in Nampa right in front of the senior citizen's. It just says Monday through Friday 8 to 5 this parking is reserved for senior citizens. You can just do that. Monday through Friday. Kuntz: How do the police enforce that? Bird: Reserved for- Anderson: Well, I mean, its difficult but the- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 57 De Weerd: The chamber would- Anderson: -- usually --. De Weerd: --I'm sure. Kuntz: Give them a parking sticker or something. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: This for chamber parking 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. Corrie: Most people would. Bird: Most people will honor it. Kuntz: Because we were trying to figure out how to accommodate more parking at that back shelter. You know, because we got some complaints this year that they went down there and they reserved a shelter and of course they came in after 4:00 when we told them they should be there. But, we thought well, maybe we should add some signs there for shelter use only. Then we were trying to figure out how we were going to enforce that. The police (inaudible). Bird: I think its pretty difficult to do something like that on a shelter. I think on the chamber you're talking about a different deal. I also think you need to realize that Monday through Friday 8 to 5, our shelters are very rarely reserved. The chamber isn't, unless it's a special occasion don't need those anyway. Its like Ron said, if you bring a sign, put a sign up, 8 to 5 Monday through Friday, reserved for chamber patrons or however you want to put it. Kuntz: How do they enforce that over there? Anderson: The enforcement, I don't think is that big a deal. I mean, you have no signage right now so people pull up and park. If they have the signage then it becomes kind of a self-policing thing. I mean, when they pull in there, they see well this isn't intended for me because I'm going to play in the ballpark. If somebody is there and then the cops come, then they can say its posted right here. It's much easier to enforce. If you just don't put anything that leaves it wide open. Most people that pull in front of the rec center and see the senior signs, they leave those open because they know that's for the seniors. Bird: It's an honor system. I think that's about all you need to do. Anderson: There'll always be someone that will test that but you eliminate about 75 percent of the problem. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 58 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) McCandless: Like handicap (inaudible). Most people honor it. Bird: Most people honor it, you better believe it. Thanks Tom. Issue No.5, discussion of transportation priorities. Mr. Smith. Smith: Thank you Mr. President, Council. I sent out a draft of our comments from our transportation task force committee meeting. J think I gave you an updated copy in your packet which contains comments that I received from several --. De Weerd: Are you going through puberty? Smith: I'm Kermit. De W eerd: Sorry. Smith: I sound like Keith. Nichols: He's going to sing bass for the Temptations. Smith: (inaudible) answer any questions that you might have concerning the report and the priorities that were listed at the page 9. I received comments from Malcolm McCoy, Terri Smith, and (inaudible) from ACHD. McCandless: You received some from me too, (inaudible) remember? Smith: Oh, right. De Weerd: Oh, I have all kinds of (inaudible). Bird: I cant believe that. De Weerd: You know, I guess, first off, I kind of thought we had talked about in the workshop in September about doing them in table form. This is kind of an example of how it ends up once it gets on the COMPASS sheet. I think you all had a copy of that last year when it came out. Then you're not really recreating anything. It's easy to read. It's easy to see your priorities. I guess, one of my thing is, ACHD last year --. I don't know, Mayor, if it was at one of our joint ACHD and City meetings or it was a COMPASS. They kind of wanted to be able to distinguish you know, the responsible party you know with the ITD or ACHD because they really don't care about anything other than the ACHD. They were trying to find a way to kind of weed through the priorities and be able to read it and see what our road issues are right off the bat. I don't know if taking out some of the signalizations and putting it in its own special category. I was kind of concerned that our number one issue was that signalization at Meridian Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 59 interchange, which is a high priority but its already scheduled and 50,000 has been donated by businesses towards that. So, it's kind of a done deal. I don't want to dilute what our priorities are or have some drop off because that happens to be on the list. I don't know if you can --. Smith: I think the committee was hesitant to take anything off that wasn't constructed. McCandless: Yes. Smith: We just didn't feel - De Weerd: I wouldn't suggest taking it off but keeping it on, not under a number, but you know that this is a priority. Its been listed as the highest priority. That it is scheduled for development. Not take it off the I ist but, just not give it a priority nu mber. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: If you do it in the matrix format, just put a column over there, you know approved and funded. De Weerd: Or even have it still as your top one, just not a priority number next to it. You know, priority high and scheduled to be completed or something like that. Anderson: I'm not (inaudible) putting a number on it would make it, chance would change it. De Weerd: Because after ten, you don't see them. You know, -- Anderson: So, they just draw a line at ten and say --? McCandless: You don't even see them up to ten. Bird: I was going to say you don't even see them up to ten. De Weerd: I'm afraid if we have things that are going to happen this year, you know that are scheduled and are funded that we still have it on the list, we just don't use it as one of our priority numbers. Bird: It completely funded, or has it just got the 50,000 donation? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Wisely, United Heritage put in a letter when they donated that 25,000. they put a deadline. If you don't schedule it and do it by this date, you don't have our contribution. That's the best thing they could have done to help (inaudible). Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 60 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: I did notice here in this report, there were several things. Since this committee only meets once a year, you know, Katy's going to get back things or there are studies that need to go to people. Who follows up and do those actually happen? Are some of these possible agenda items for joint meetings with the City and ACHD such as the storm water drainage and the park and ride lots, regarding the Overland one. Katy was suppose to look at the stacking of the westbound traffic and she was, Katy was going to report back. Are some of the things that were discussed in here looking like it needed follow up. Do they actually give follow up? Is some of this, things that we should be paying attention to the results of ITD sponsored interstate corridor study? Does that need action by the Council? I guess a number of questions were raised after reading this. Do we need to follow up and get some action going? Does someone do that? McCandless: Katy is pretty good about following up though. She's worked on several things. Anderson: Yes, she did. De Weerd: Yes, but the reporting would happen next year then. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: These all seem pretty timely issues that, you know we don't want to wait a year for Katy to report back. If there should be conversation at the Mayor and Council level that, should be taking care of them and providing that feedback back to the committee so that when you meet again, you have it? Bird: I think it could be discussion at your joint meetings with ACHD at certain points along the way. Smith: A lot of these items are project oriented items. I don't know if that's subject matter for the joint meetings or not. It's kind of between staff unless there's something in here that you feel as Mayor and Council issue. De Weerd: I do kind of like this storm water drainage thing. Ron has been talking about why do we need to completely build out these roads? If they're finding some overflow problems with the run off with the curb and gutter. Now, they're suggesting to do a non- curb and gutter street sections, that would be worth at least hearing it from staff at ACHD's meeting where they're coming from and where (inaudible). Smith: Sure. That would be a good (inaudible). De Weerd: I think there was something else in here too. On this interchange beautification, is this definitely going to be pursued? I guess I got kind of a mixed - Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 61 Smith: No, there are 2 things that need to happen. One is the Council needs to approve moving ahead with this because it is a matching grant program. Secondly is a maintenance issue with the City and, it would be a parks department issue for maintenance. De Weerd: You know- Smith: They do require a maintenance agreement between the state and the City. De Weerd: This has been on the list since 94. I don't know. Has Council ever had the discussion on this particular item? Bird: On number 16? De Weerd: Yes. Anderson: Not that I recall. Bird: Not that I recall in my 4 years. De Weerd: See, because your committee puts a lot of work into this and it seems like the report just kind of gets filed and gets looked at the next year but if there's an action item that Council should be looking at it just kind of gets --. Corrie: Is that tied in Gary? Excuse me, is that tied with ITD? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: Federal money? De Weerd: It is. Corrie: So, that's --. Bird: Its federal and local. Corrie: -- hampers it a little bit. De Weerd: Its STP enhancement which Boise should be going after for their 11 and a half million. Corrie: Actually it's 17 and a half. (inaudible) Bird: When it gets that high, it don't matter. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 62 De Weerd: Now, another question. On the overlay projects it says that Katy will have a list probably in November. Did your committee have input on what roads are going to be overlaid? Smith: At this meeting? De Weerd: Yes. Smith: No we didn't. De Weerd: Does the City have any input on the overlay? Smith: The overlays are based on the condition of the existing pavement. They do their inventory analysis, or their analysis of their inventory. Then based on the index number that they calculate, (inaudible). They then create a priority list of the roads that are going to be overlaid. Then they notify us and say, here are the roads in your area that will be overlaid. If we don't have a problem with that as far as public works, sewer and water lines, then we let them know that. Otherwise we may ask them to delay one so that we can get a sewer line built or a water line built. De Weerd: I don't know. It's just so strange. I think they overlaid Locust Grove between Fairview and Ustick not too long ago. It was on the schedule (inaudible). Bird: That was just one little section. They didn't do the whole mile. That was just down there where they put the, Gary they had to, and I don't think they really overlaid. They overlaid north between Ustick and McMillan. But they just came in, as I can remember it Tammy, they just came in and put, --. Well, we had to put the culvert, remember where they changed the culvert and stuff- Smith: On the South Slough. Bird: -- on the South Slough. That's all I can remember, them coming in and putting, widening it out a little bit or something, didn't they? Smith: Well, they're improving Locust Grove now. They did that for the culvert. Now Locust Grove from Fajrview to Ustick is being reconstructed. From Ustick north- Bird: Ustick north was overlay and out to McMillan. Now, I haven't been up to between McMillan and Chinden that I cant tell you if that was overlaid too. Smith: Yes it was. Bird: It was? So, they did Ustick all the way to Chinden. Its like Gary said, they go out and test these roads and stuff to determine when they need to be overlaid. De Weerd: Then why haven't they done Ustick yet? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 63 Bird: Evidently it hasn't --. You mean the washboard? De Weerd: Yes. Anderson: What happens though Gary if they have a road targeted for overlay and then you contact them and tell them we've got a sewer project? I mean, that would seem like the very easy out for them. Its like, well okay, we're take the money and we'll go do some other road in some other town. At that point. Smith: We try to get them to keep that money in the area and do another piece of road somewhere else so that we don't lose the money. Anderson: Have you had any luck with that? Smith: Yes, we have. We had them move projects. Well, I can't remember (inaudible) is one that we had them move because we were going to build north of Ustick with that sewer line. They wanted to overlay it. De Weerd: Well, good, so they work with the City then. So, it sounds like you do have input where you need it. Smith: We don't have input as to what they want to overlay but they do let us know what they want to overlay. Then we comment on that whether we have any problem with it or not. But they let all the utilities know that they are going to do that and then if anybody's got a problem (inaudible) you can let them know and try to make arrangements. We put, I think we put that piece on Ten Mile Road off for 2 years. They came back twice (inaudible ). De Weerd: Now, moving to Pine Avenue. I didn't see this on the priority list. Its development driven so, but should you have it on --. It was on one of your lists a number of years ago. I think it was on in 93 or 94. then it didn't materialize since then. This still is a priority. Even though its development funded, do you want that on your priority list? Or is it on there and I've missed it? I know it's in the text but I think we already know they don't read that. Smith: I thought I had (inaudible). De Weerd: I think there's a --. Yes, it's in the text but not on the list itself. Bird: He's got one (inaudible). De Weerd: Do you have number 12, where you go Pine from Miller to East First, or East First to Miller. Smith: Oh, yes. I guess, if we don't have it on the priority list, the rest of Pine. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 64 De Weerd: I guess that would be one suggestion. Smith: In reality what we were told is that probably only the top 3 or 4 projects ever make it to the priority list. So, we can put as many priority items on here as we want. De Weerd: They all actually come in the COMPASS list as approved by the local governments. But, I do know they get deleted. That's why I was concerned (inaudible). Bird: By the time they get through with COMPASS they might be No.1 priority on our list but COMPASS might have them No.4 priority. De Weerd: That's why I suggested that we have some historical data with our priority list on how long we've been submitting those as priorities. Actually some of these, like for example Meridian, you know the East First, Meridian Corporate Drive thing, you know that's been scheduled for construction then pulled off. I think that's important if they're looking at pulling something off of your list that they have that historical data on there. Your speed limits, I've never seen a report from the traffic safety committee. Do you get reports from them? Smith: Well, we meet monthly. I think we're required to meet 9 times a year but we've been, in the summer time its tough to get everybody together but we have been meeting monthly at the police department. Typically, there's 4 or 5 (inaudible), police, myself, ACHD, and I think we've got 3 citizens. De Weerd: Do you do public notice and keep public records on those? Bird: Do you get reports? The safety Committee gives us reports. De Weerd: I've never seen one. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: No, they've come to us when they've wanted to change a speed limit or something. De Weerd: But, have you seen a monthly report? I have never seen a report at all. Smith: The police department takes care of the minutes on it. I don't know the distribution of the minutes. De Weerd: That should go to Will. All of our agendas and minutes need to go to the City Clerk's office. Smith: Do you get them Will? Traffic safety committee minutes? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 65 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Anything that's public should be on file in the City Clerk's office. De Weerd: If they meet every month --. Just like parks, parks needs to get Will their agenda before the meeting and get him the minutes once they are approved. I don't think they have been. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Okay, but Will hasn't. I guess I have a question of our legal staff. I read in here on the Locust Grove overpass, review of the draft memorandum of understanding needed to be completed by pour legal department. Has that been done? Nichols: Councilman de Weerd. I have reviewed the agreement but there was a side deal, which was issued, which had to do with the donations. I've got it (inaudible). We need some decisions on it which is who is going to do the donation (inaudible). Because there are certain guidelines associated with a federal project particularly, hoops that have to be jumped through when (inaudible). The guidelines of ACHD (inaudible) said well the City will do all of the donation work, jump through all of the hoops, acquire title to the property from the landowner. Then convey the property to ACHD. I told Miss Beaner-Kane that there's a problem with us taking title because once we did, then in order to dispose of the property, we have to jump through all the hoops (inaudible) and all of those things. So, we really couldn't do that. We couldn't take title to it. Then the response came back with was well we don't necessarily want to receiving donated property if we're not doing the work associated with acquiring the donation so that we can know that every T has been crossed and every I has been dotted. (inaudible) well, your Council (inaudible) what it's going to do about who's going to do the (inaudible) donations. I told them my idea was, at least what I had gleaned through the meetings with them is the Council felt like, and the Mayor that there were property owners who could be approached just simply on the prospect of we're trying to get this overpass. Someone will contact you about (inaudible). We would really appreciate it if you could do something. I thought that was sort of where (inaudible) --. Bird: That was exactly --. Corrie: Letting ACHD do it. Bird: I just met with Marilyn this morning down there at ACHD. We don't want any part of this. Bill, you explained it just 100 percent. That's exactly what I told her. I took a bunch of cards and said I'd give them to you guys. I don't have them with me. Their cards, there's a couple of people out there that I've mentioned this to but, I'm going to hand them her card and give them to here. there is so many hoops to jump through form the federal way that I don't think there's a one of us 5 people sitting here - McCandless: No. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9. 2001 Page 66 Bird: -- that is capable of doing it, nor do we want to do it. McCandless: It's incredible what they require. Bird: Its incredible what they, --. I mean, maybe the Mayor wants to but here's one guy that --. I said I'll give you leads, you know I'll go --. She said will you go and I said sure I'll go with you to the people I know. But you're doing it, not me. After about a half hour of talking to her. We don't have the staff to do it. Nichols: That was apparent to me. When they were saying we (inaudible) have to do all these to satisfy these guidelines, it appeared to me that (inaudible) hire somebody full time just to do that. I didn't think that was (inaudible). Bird: They've already got everything in place. They're familiar with it. Marilyn is very capable of doing it. Nichols: The second issue that has to be --. You will recall the one joint meeting where the question was what is the 1.8 million dollars we're taking? Remember that? Bird: Right of way. De Weerd: Oh, yes. Nichols: There was- McCandless: Its not that simple. Nichols: There was the divergence of opinion as to what acquiring right of way meant. Did that mean, closing costs, (inaudible) the title reports, those sorts of things associated with (inaudible). McCandless: Relocation. Nichols: Yes, utility relocation. Or did it just mean the amount paid to the landowner. So, we needed to have that clarified as to what the City is willing to (inaudible). That was at the end of the meeting. (inaudible). It's not going to cover all these other things. We already know its going to be more than 1.8 million dollars, forget it. We can't do it. We need some --. Bird: Its up to 1.8. Nichols: Correct. I have always said that, not to exceed. Bird: Not to exceed. Meridian City Council Workshop October g, 2001 Page 67 Nichols: We hang on to the money and reimburse them as they spend it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: So, are they just spending the money on right of way purchase and nothing more? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nichols: Well, I know that's my question to the Council. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That's the way I understand it. Corrie: (inaudible) Nichols: Whether that would be as to --. It's a reasonable part of the right of way acquisition to pay the costs associated with acquiring the title, such as the (inaudible), utility relocation (inaudible). I don't know about how strongly you feel about appraisal costs (inaudible). Bird: There will have to be appraisals whether it's donated. If somebody walks down because of the federal boys says here I'll give you 100 foot by 100 foot strip, its still got to be appraised and go through all the hoops. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Bigger than normal residential lot. McCandless: So, bottom line, those donations aren't going to go very far. Bird: My feeling is if somebody say, the ground that they are trying to purchase and this is the approach that I would say to some of them is that they could, --. If you could, if it was appraised at 100,000, they donate 50. Hey, that's 50,000 less for the taxpayers to have to pay for. Anything they want to donate, you know I think is --. The problem you've got is if they're not free and clear, there's nothing --. The owner could walk down and say, I'll donate this whole thing to you, but the lien holder has to sign off too. They will not sign off. I understand why. They want the full appraisal price. They're entitled to it. Nichols: Anyway, this needs to be on the agenda for decision by the Council as to what's included in (inaudible). De Weerd: Okay. Will's not here, so, you've got that on your list? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 68 Corrie: When do we want to make a decision? De Weerd: Well, we probably should make it soon. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Stiles: We need to get started on acquiring that land north of the freeway because those people all have commercial prices. Bird; The only problem is, Shari, its just like Marilyn and I talked today, until we get a final pathway designed, you don't know how much you're going to need on the west. You don't know how much you're going to need on the east. It's really tough. So, you're basically, we need to get this agreement in place and stuff and get the understandings of how the money goes. Until they get us some kind of a drawing, and its suppose to be done by the first of the year. She said January. De Weerd: So, we want this on the 23rd? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: I've got it here. Bird: You're going to put it on the 23rd? Stiles: South of the freeway, we're not dealing with that (inaudible). Bird: No, we're not. Stiles: (inaudible) Bird: What? Stiles: Greg Johnson is one of them and the northwest pipeline company is almost that entire (inaudible). Bird: I was going to say that's almost west all but that one corner, isn't it? Or do they have the corner now? Stiles: I think there's another parcel right down at the corner where the house --. Bird: Where the old house is, where the old fire went --. (inaudible) Bob fell through the porch. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Concentrated weight in one location. Meridian City Council WorkShOp October 9. 2001 Page 69 De Weerd: This report also raises a couple of other action items that need to be on an agenda I think. That was raised with streetlights and county section line road intersections and who would pay for that and how, you know if ACHD has a standard agreement with Ada County. Katy was going to check that out and Gary was going to check with the school district. But, that seems like an item of importance that should at some point be visited. Then there's the truck traffic movement study that she has. That might even be something that --. I don't think Planning and Zoning would really care about it but its something that we could do a workshop or --. McCandless: I have a lot of discussion on that truck traffic movement to get them off of East First. Bird: Get them off East First and Meridian Road. McCandless: Yes. Bird: We have discussed it. McCandless: (inaudible) Bird: We had a joint meeting with ACHO, remember, 2 or 3 years ago regarding. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, we had that and they came out with it. It was a good plan. I think once --. I've got mine. I believe it went down Franklin to what's going to - (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I was thinking about going east. Shari, remember? Stiles: Eagle Road? Bird: No, it wasn't going to Eagle, remember. I think it was going to locust or some place, wasn't it? And cutting across over to Fairview. ['II have to look at my map. They had a pretty well defined and it was a nice idea if you could get a truck road. But, like you said, Franklin had to be re-done and some of the other roads before you sent a bunch of trucks down them. McCandless: They were talking about East Second, or was it Third? Anderson: Third. De Weerd: Third. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 70 McCandless: Take them all the way down to Carlton and then you're stuck. Bird: You've got a couple of people that are convinced that Third Street can handle the truck traffic. ACHD is not convinced of that. That isn't coming from ACHD. Anderson: I wouldn't be convinced. Bird: I wouldn't either. McCandless: No, we just discussed it. Bird: (inaudible) De Weerd: Well, yes, but if you go look at Third, you don't have houses facing onto that street. They're both going onto the east west streets and not that north south. Bird: That's really nice but what do you do when you get down here to Two and a Half Street --? McCandless: That's what we were talking about. Bird: You've got a big old truck coming around there, you'd better widen your street quite a bit. De Weerd: Well, you go through condemnation and get that corner and straighten it out. Bird: Mrs. McFadden? De Weerd: Yes. Bird: Good luck. That would be about a good 10 year project for you Tammy. De Weerd: (inaudible) Anderson: You'd rather get that City logo changed quicker than you could get that. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: That's taking how long? Bird: How long have we been working on that logo? De Weerd: Hey, it's done. I mean, I don't know how many people got input. I got only a half a dozen phone calls but that wasn't on the agenda. Bird: That's not on the agenda. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9,2001 Page 71 De Weerd: It was suppose to be though. Bird: You've had it on the agenda every month. De Weerd: Well, its gone through the public input process too Keith. Now its ready for Council action. Bird: Council approval. De Weerd: The committee requests an ACHD roadway maintenance plan for Meridian for the next five years. I don't know if the that request should come from the Mayor, but it will probably get buried on this report. Were you going to request it as committee from someone? Do you want the Mayor to? Smith: Well --. De Weerd: Its on page 8. No, it's all in their summary. Smith: I'll contact Katy with a list of requests (inaudible) and I'll include that. De Weerd: One thing I did see on this priority list is Locust Grove, Fairview to Franklin. Has that dropped off as a priority or is that kind of a --? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Again, that's probably not something we want to drop off this list. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: No. Anderson: No, just realignment. De Weerd: Realigning Franklin to Fairview, not always using (inaudible). I thought at one time it was actually on, I don't know if its PD or not but I thought it was even on a schedule. Anderson: That should stay pretty high, especially if we're going to push for that overpass. Bird: You're right Ron. That's 100 percent. Anderson: (inaudible) Corrie: That realignment is suppose to be done (inaudible). Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 72 Stiles: There'll have to be a condemnation on high micro (inaudible). Bird: They're going to do what? Stiles: They'll have to do condemnation on that. They don't even have occupancy in there anyway. When they added on all that building. ACHD made the requirement to dedicate that additional right of way. I don't know if they're still in the court process or what (inaudible). Bird: On the west side of their (inaudible)? They've got plenty of area. I mean, they're building's a long ways away. Stiles: Well, they claim that it would effect their operations because that's where they have all the trucks come in with those, I don't know what is it, rebar. Bird: Rebar. Smith: (inaudible) item NO.4 in priorities, it says Locust Grove Franklin to Fairview is currently programmed for construction (inaudible). Bird: (inaudible) coincide about a year behind that. (inaudible) Corrie: A year behind or year before. De Weerd: That's because it's not on the list and just a notation. Do you think it will get bumped? I'm just concerned that everything is on here and they can't say they didn't see it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, you're right. Smith: Do you want to set that up as a separate priority item then? De Weerd: I don't know. Or, just you know- Corrie: Or added. Bird: I think that and the Locust Grove overpass, I'm like Ron, should go hand and hand. Do you have anything else? Corrie: Do you want to put this agreement on the spending 1.8 as a department report for action? Or do you want to put it as an agenda item itself? I need some help from your department (inaudible). Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 73 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We could do that under the Mayor's administrative report, couldn't we? Nichols: Either (inaudible) or as a discussion item. (inaudible) Bird: Gary, do you have anymore? Smith: No, sir. Bird: Council, anymore for Gary? Thank you and your committee Gary. This is very nice. You did a nice job. De Weerd: Yes. Corrie: Lets back up for just a minute. Were you talking about the logo, or is it the City seal? De Weerd: The City logo. Corrie: The City logo? Not the City seal? De Weerd: I don't know the difference between? Corrie: There is a difference between logo and a City seal. Bird: Yes there is. De Weerd: Okay, which is what? Corrie: Logo, anybody can use it if they want to or they don't have to. The City seal is the official seal of the City. Bird: That's what I thought was --. Corrie: It would be on your stationary and things. De Weerd: Yes, its- Corrie: A logo can be different from each department. Bird: Yes. De Weerd: Yes, the seal. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 74 Corrie: So, this is the seal. A logo can be done a parks logo, a police logo. You don't have to use the City seal. De Weerd: Okay, yes, it's the City seal. Corrie: So, this is the City seal? Issue #6 Discussion of business licensing - Gary Smith Bird: Okay, next item, Gary is discussion --. De Weerd: Keith? Bird: Yes? De Weerd: Can we make sure that a thank you letter if the Mayor hasn't already done it is sent to both United Heritage and Bob Nahas on those donation toward that signalization? Corrie: I've got (inaudible). We can do it at the end individually. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: No. Kuntz: They're donating 9 concrete picnic tables that are about a thousand bucks each to the parks department. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, great. Corrie: Yes, I've talked to both Dennis and Nahas both. Bird: Okay, are you done now? De Weerd: yes. I'm sorry. Bird: Discussion of business licensing. That's Gary. Smith: Mr. President, Mayor, and Council. I didn't get any additional information from Wastewater Treatment Plant. So, I don't have anything to give you. I guess, I just recommend that we table this until (inaudible) and I'll pursue it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 75 De Weerd: Well, I think that you were suppose to get input from police, fire and Planning and Zoning on what specific types of businesses because I don't think --. When we discussed it last month, it didn't sound like Council wanted it for all businesses, just certain kinds - *** End of Side Four *** De Weerd: I don't think you'll get them --. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Issue #7 Discussion of status/update of fee study for possible increases for P & Z, Public Works, Parks (impact fees) and Safety Services impact fees Bird: The next item, status on the update of Public Works, Planning and Zoning, park impact fees and safety service impact fees. Shari, are you --? Let's see, you've got some, you have some fee schedule update? How are you going on it? Stiles: Well, I gave you some a long time ago. Bird: Yes, you did. Stiles: The more we got looking at them, the more we decided that we needed to include some of Public Works time in those fees. So, this is all handwritten right now but I've incorporated the Public Works fees and I'll get those changed a put a new copy in your box tomorrow. Bird: Shari, can we get these, do you think where we can get them out and have our public hearing and stuff and get these implemented in the City thing by January first? Stiles: Oh, yes. Bird: Okay. That's what I would like to shoot for as the new year starts. Stiles: In fact, I would like to try to get them, the Planning and Zoning fees before that because of all the applications that we're getting. Bird: Okay. De Weerd: Have you gotten to the BCA? Stiles: No, they meet next Monday. I can get it to them tomorrow. I don't know if they'll get it on the agenda. I don't know how much time they need, but, and I probably should attend the meeting if you want me to be there too. Bird: I don't think that would be a bad idea. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 76 Stiles: To kind of explain because there is quite a big change on it because Public Works has never been reimbursed for any of their time. Our overhead is so much more than theirs that our hourly fees look a lot higher but its just because our operating expenses are so high. Bird: Like you say, we still should be getting some (inaudible) out of the Public Works. Stiles: Yes, and they have given me all the costs that I need for the different types of applications that they have. I wanted to ask Gary one thing on the fence variance application though. I don't have anything to do with the fence variance, although it comes into my department's budget, is $50 adequate to cover those fees? Is that published anywhere? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) McCandless: Most of them are no brainers. Bird: Yes, you're right Cherie. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Smith: I put together a letter and sent that out, fill that out. (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Stiles: So, you want to just leave it at 50 then? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: How are your fees looking compared to the other communities? Stiles: In some instances they're higher but that's because we're, you know, operating expenses are so high. De Weerd: Significantly? Or, still in the ballpark? Stiles: Still in the ballpark. De Weerd: (inaudible) high on some and low on the other and medium average on the rest. I think as long as it's just justified. Then you can give the rationale. Stiles: For example, his fees, his operating expenses are only what 382 or something per hour? Smith: 3 and change. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 77 Stiles: Whereas our operating expenses are $2.34. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Or that red face? Bird: What are you getting red for? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: But in the same token, he's got some expenses in Brad's, even though not as much. Are you eating all the attorney fees for the development services? Stiles: 40 percent of civil costs. 40 percent of the civil fees. Bird: Goes to Planning and Zoning? How much comes from Public Works to the attorney's? Do you have anything in? Nichols: Councilman Bird. We've been breaking out the times, the actual percentage of my time for the Planning and Zoning issues compared to others (inaudible). Anderson: If you weren't so hard to get along with. Bird: Yes. Anderson: You're operating costs could be a lot- Stiles: That doesn't even include the Mayor's fees. Nichols: It probably breaks down, it's been a while since I looked at it. Planning and Zoning and general administration (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Anyways, you have worked from our costs up. Lets proceed on with this. Stiles: I'll have that to you tomorrow and I'll get that to the Building Contractor's Association tomorrow. Bird: Okay. Will you have some comparison with the other entities (inaudible)? Stiles: Like Brad did on his? Bird: Yes. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 78 Watson: In fact, I have a --. That one that you have is pretty rough and it's got a lot of --. Bird: I was just going to ask you, Brad, if you give magnifying glasses with your --? Watson: I know it. Bird: Gary, won't you buy him a bigger printer? Stiles: He could do it on legal size sheets. Bird: Well, I got my magnifying glasses and I can't read it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Stiles: I'm not real sure that I would want to let this out to the general public, something like this because they're going to wonder Bruce Freckleton charges only $38 an hour and mine is $68 something. Watson: Well, I don't intend this to go out to the public but they've already got a copy of something similar. I would rather them have a --. Bird: It don't go to the public until you present it or stuff like that. Of course then it would be public record. Stiles: But can it just propose the fees without all the hours? Can we just put the hours and not have a rate? Bird: Just have backup for yourself. Stiles: Okay. So, I can go ahead and do this just like I presented to you before with the existing fees and the proposed fees? Bird: You bet. Stiles: I'll put it in a better format. Bird: You don't have to say $38 of that is Bruce Freckleton and $80 of it is Shari Stiles. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I can read this a little bit. Watson: I actually had somebody else work on this one so it looks better. Bird: No, its bigger print. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 79 Watson: Part of it is I wanted to run through some examples, some example subdivisions to show you the fees that would be charged, at least from the Public Works side. We discussed that a little bit last time. De Weerd: That's the part that (inaudible) wanted (inaudible). Watson: One of the key things that we are considering on commercial reviews are re- review fees. In other words they get the initial review and they pay their fees. When the plans come back and get checked there's no fee associated with that. If they still haven't made the appropriate corrections or they keep changing things, each time they com in, at least this preliminary one showed a 50 percent subsequent review fee, 50 percent of the initial review would be charged each and every time that came back in. we've been having a lot of problems, especially with commercial plans. Bird: What are you talking about? Is it the way they're laid out or drawn? Or the engineers? Or what is it, the architect engineers or both? Is it the site plan, the --? Watson: It's the site plan. The site civil stuff that we're reviewing. Things aren't being addressed on the red lines. They're just shooting something in so they can get it into the cue. Its incomplete, although we cant tell that when it first, --. Once you get into the plan, you can tell it's incomplete. Or they just revise it, week after week, after week. We had one off site water sewer plant (inaudible). It's gone through 9 reviews because of revisions, changes (inaudible). It's very frustrating. Bird: What I'm saying is you know the 50 percent initial review, if they're coming in with changes every week, that's a new plan. Watson: They argue --. Bird: How do we compare with Boise and Nampa? Does Boise and Nampa make their site plans go out and pick up the sewer in the middle of water or down at the end of the road or anything? Do we might do this? Watson: Most large commercial projects they have to show that anyway because they're tying into it. I know what you're talking about. There's certain small projects that, we do make them show where the water and sewer are in the street. I had a very long discussion with a builder last week in this. The reason is when that is archived in the future, when we pullout that set of plans, if we need to work on the services which we're responsible for. At least on water for the meter to the main, we have one set of plans. We know where it is. But, they don't want to do that they say. Architects like to just show a line coming into a lot and say, connect to sewer. That's not always enough information. Bird: I agree there. I thought this master layout that we were doing is, I thought we had, we're paying a very expensive price to somebody to do this. Is that being done so that-- Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 80 . I've had instances where we've said its right here in the street and its wound up being right over there in the street. Watson: We have a schematic drawing that shows generally where it is and what sizes are there. We don't have anything that shows within a foot where things are precisely located. Bird: Are we doing it on the new ones? Are we getting site backs with the exact drawings, like they do buildings? As builts? Watson: We're getting record drawings now in electronic form that we're plugging into the electronic files. Bird: Okay, that's what I'm saying. Watson: From this summer on, and we have one guy that's very proficient in doing this. It will be tied in and it should be very, very accurate. But, anything before that I wouldn't swea r to it. De Weerd: You know the only thing is, I believe in that process improvement group that was brought up on if plans have to be resubmitted there should be additional charges. It probably reduce the amount of work you had to do because people would stop doing it if they knew they were going to be penalized for every resubmittal they have to do by having to pay for it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Yes. Anderson: Why don't you do an initial fee for the plan and then go to an hourly rate (inaudible )7 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nichols: The problem as I see it, in the time and materials is you have to be set up to bill that way and track your time you're going to spend on that (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nichols: So, what you have to do is guess by estimating based on some sort of historical experience. If I charge this, it will cover those costs. In 95 percent of the cases, where I lose it on this one we'll make it up here. that way, on the development side, they know going in this is the fee. That's an advantage to them and it's an advantage on the budget side because you can say we estimate so many of these. This will be the charge (inaudible). Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 81 (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I think you have to have a fee. I'm like Ron, I think you need to, if you're having to re-do it all the time and they're coming back, at no fault of ours. Then they should be paying. Anderson: We run into the same thing at the fire department, reviewing plans. There are architects and engineers that will draw them right the first time. You just go in and check them and everything looks great. There's others that you end up babysitting them and sending the plans back 5 or 6 times. Watson: I can tell by the title block when we get a set of plans, (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: That's where there ought to be some type of system where you can charge that person because then it makes it take care of itself. Watson: That's at least our initial intent. Bird: I'm going to bring up something then from the other end of it. The fire departments are one of the worst in this, is getting the building half built with the plans that they've already inspected. Then you get a bunch of changes, pages full that they've mixed exits, panics on exit doors, or stuff like this. Then I think us subcontractors should be reimbursed for that, or the owner should be. But I think you should charge. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: If you're going to bring up this, I'll bring up this because --. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Those contractors do not submit their sprinkler plans and their fire alarm plans at the same time the building (inaudible). Bird: (inaudible) to you anyway. Anderson: A lot of times they've started building the building before we've ever seen the plans. Bird: But you get to see all the doors and stuff and you know the exits and you know the occupancy. Anderson: Until you change them. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 82 Bird: (inaudible) Anderson: Until you change them. Stiles: But the fire department doesn't even charge an inspection fee, do they? Anderson: No, (inaudible) Bird: They're good guys. Everybody likes them. De Weerd: They should. Bowers: (inaudible) 7 years ago, (inaudible) to do that. I've never found any paperwork to say that we should be getting money. Bird: Lets put it this way. Somewhere in our fees should be covered, the fire department's costs. Stiles: Probably in the building inspection fees. Bird: They do plan reviews. Stiles: But then they do inspections too. De Weerd: (inaudible) building department. Bird: (inaudible). There should be some (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: I had that argument with Dennis today. I mean, he's actually, he's charging for work we're doing. Bird: You bet. Anderson: And he's getting all the revenue off it. Bird: (inaudible). Kind of like that thing you showed me today. One department paying for the other ones. Stiles: We did add in our fees, site plan modifications, a fee for that and one request for final occupancy inspection allowed at no charge. Everytime we have to go out after that, its another $50. I went to Tremont Place. It took me 13 times to have them get everything done. Corrie: 13 times 50 is (inaudible)? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 83 Stiles: Well, it wasn't in place so I (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Stiles: Yes, they'd learn pretty fast. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I think Brad's right here. these reviews and reviews, get some money out of them. The owners, pretty soon the owners will get the engineers and the architects that want it laid out right. The architects and the engineer arent paying these fees. Its that owner who's paying the fees. Once he gets hit with some reviews that isnt his fault, it isnt the City's fault, theres going to be some engineers and some architects that (inaudible). I agree with that 100 percent. Okay. Brad, will you print it up so that when we're reviewing we can read them a little better? Watson: I will spend some more time on the presentation. Bird: You're doing fine. It looks great. I think this is something that we definitely need. Corrie: Its not your fault we cant read. Bird: We can't see, but age has a way of doing that. Watson: I'm having trouble with it. Corrie: (inaudible) can't hear you either. Watson: I don't know that you really want to look at this or discuss it tonight. I did go back to the water and sewer rates. I can hand these out if you just want to look at them. Bird; If you wouldn't mind, we would look at them. Then we can take a --. How are we? Are we staying above costs? Watson: I guess, overall, its short. I'll say it. The way I calculate it, it's a pretty substantial increase. What I've recommended. I haven't talked to Gary because we haven't seen much of each other in the last couple days. Its kind of a happy medium. Anderson: The water rates are high enough (inaudible). Bird: So did my wife. She wanted to know what in the hell was going on. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: See, I was blaming it on Tara. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 84 Bird: What? De Weerd: Jan was blaming it on Tara. Bird: My wife's been running around trying to figure out how the two of us use more water. I said well, when you're out there irrigating 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, what do you expect? Besides that Brad wanted a pay raise. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That wasn't half as bad as the telephone bill with the computer on it. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Watson: I've got a couple of outstanding questions for the billing department that need to be resolved. I'm not sure that there would be much difference (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: The only thing I can say, is when you add up their mill levy, they can afford to have the lower rates when you've got a mill levy like Nampa does. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Anderson: Those are enterprise funds. They ought to be self-funding. Corrie: That's exactly right. Watson: The water and sewer rates on United Water are reversed. Bird: They're reversed, Gary? Or Brad? Watson: Right. De Weerd: I liked coming in 2 cents below United Water. (inaudible). Bird: Okay, Council, we got any more questions fro Brad on any of his fees? We'll look these over Brad. Thank you very much. Watson: Thank you. Bird: Okay, parks. Mr. Kuntz, hows your fee structure coming? Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 85 Kuntz: We are working to finish up our capital improvement plan which is essential before we go for any increases. We formed a subcommittee from the parks commission. We've met the last 2 weeks. Then I met with my Council liaison this week, last week? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: because we want to come in with the plan that, part of the action plan that we hope the Council can support. So, we don't want to come in with a plan (inaudible). We presented to the parks commission last night. It went medium well. We're getting the subcommittee back together next week so we can finish it up. I'm wondering procedurally, though, if I bring the capital improvement plan and the action plan to council at the last Council meeting of this month, if I should go to the builder's council and the realtor's council before I go to the City Council or after? Bird: I think you ought to go and get their blessings --. Corrie: (inaudible) first. Kuntz: And impact fees also? Bird: Yes. Kuntz: Because we're calculating a true cost for new houses and new parks at about 1600 a household. Boise's at 7 (inaud ible). Stiles: They charge (inaudible). Kuntz: I guess I was thinking if we could charge somewhere in the $800 range. Bird: What are we charging now Tom? Kuntz: 520. Bird: 520 (inaudible). Stiles: That's for multi family per unit. Bird: Oh, okay. Mr. Nichols? Nichols: President Bird, Members of Council. When you take the proposed impact fees to the voters, that's all they are is proposed. You would still have to have a hearing to impose them. You're just more or less laying the ground work for that hearing (inaudible ). Bird: But if you could get their endorsement, it certainly does help. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 86 Nichols: That's all true. That's the right process to get it done. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: They're going to compare it to what the statute says too and they wrote the statute. Nichols: One other point though in connection with that, is you can look at these Bear Creek costs --. Kuntz: That's what I was looking at --. Nichols: -- $75,000 per acre for acquisition and development. Then that's not just --. You're paying somebody to stand on a shovel. This is (inaudible). Stiles: That's not acquisition (inaudible)? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: The only thing that's not in there, which we're figuring 75 that might hedge it to 8,000 would be the pump station which is about a $3,000 expenditure. Any ind of turning lanes that we need to put in for ACHD's requirements would add to that cost per acer. Boise's at 100. the sheet I handed out a couple weeks ago was at 80. I think the only place --. Stiles: That 80 doesn't include acquisition, though? Kuntz: No. Oh, I see what you're saying. Bird: Yes. Stiles: If the City was doing it, it would be much more. So, don't you have to take the City's development costs? Tully's a better example. Bird: Yes, Tully is basically the same size, in fact a little smaller and its running 250,000 more what it cost us to develop the complete build out on --. Kuntz: I know one issue with the BCA is going to be the neighborhood parks. I've got a meeting with the gentleman who's doing the overlay district tomorrow, Mike Wardle to discuss that because I guess what I would like to propose to them is we'll take care of the community parks and we'll let the developers take care of consolidating their drainage areas and maybe giving --. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 87 Bird: What is somebody like Summerfield do out there? That little open space they've got where we had the police night out. You don't maintain that do you? Kuntz: (inaudible) what I would like to propose to them is they take their 7 or 8 drainage pits, consolidate them into one area. Then we possibly consider taking the 10 percent when it's a planned development open space and maybe giving them some credit. Having them build the neighborhood park, 5 acres, deed it to the City and we'll come in and maintain it. Because one of their beefs is the homeowners wont maintain it to the proper level after 10 or 15 years. Bird: The problem is your costs go up so high on maintaining a 5 acre deal. You know, I'd almost, and this probably sounds selfish or crazy, but as a City I don't know if I would want a park under 10 acres. That is feasible, I mean, 5 acres. I don't know. Then you've got the safety as you said the other day. The police chief Gordon has beat in my head that you don't put a neighborhood park where they normally do because its all hidden. You cant get to it. What they do is just give you the worst lot or two that they cant sell or cant use. That really brings up some other questions. Anderson: (inaudible) recommend that you get away from those kind of parks. Bird: I think on that overlay deal out there, my suggestion would be to go to, in that 12 square miles or whatever we're doing, 2 20 acre parks would be very sufficient for that area. Plus you're talking within a mile of the 58 acres. Kuntz: Well, there's actually 3 of them. That's, when we talked the other day, I said, hey, do you guys want to take this 8 miles, or 10 or whatever it is. There's 3 community parks in there, do you guys want to come in and provide the land and build them in exchange for your impact fees? We would like to talk about that. Bird: But, see, for somebody to do a 20 acre, one developer do that, he's got to be developing 3 or 400 acres. Kuntz: Marty Goldsmith's got (inaudible). Bird: I know Marty's one of them. Stiles: And Greg Johnson, Bird: And Greg Johnson's got one. (inaudible) has got that many. De Weerd: You can also maximize by partnering, you know buddying with school sites when you can get a better percentage of open space and only have maybe half of it 7 acres of parkland. Next to a school like Hobble Creek - Bird: (inaudible) if you can do it with a school site. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 88 Kuntz: They won't do it with us. Bird: Why won't they? They do it with Boise. Kuntz: They'll do it if we do not put a permanent structure restroom in the park. If we put a permanent structure in, they don't want it. It's a security problem for them. He sat in the overlay district meeting and said no. Now, we're talking about trying to share parking lots. De Weerd: Okay, that's Wendell. What does the board say? You know, he's got a bad attitude anyway. He makes me have one. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Kuntz: So, are we shooting for January first to have all the new fees in place? Bird; I'd love to see it Tom. That would be my preference is to get them going. You know, we've delayed and we've delayed. Shari would like to get hers going ahead of time. I would definitely like to see the park impact before you know the winter time. I think Gary will say the residential, the building permits and stuff are down. I hope we can have it in there. Just more money for us to use to develop --. Kuntz: Tammy, did you want to share the other idea about (inaudible) that we discussed? De Weerd: I'm sorry? Kuntz: The fee, instead of (inaudible). De Weerd: Oh. You know a concern for new development is that all the impact that are raising are almost pricing --. They're putting a clear line between the price of a new home versus the price of an existing home. They're very concerned. You know they want growth to pay its share but to equalize (inaudible). One suggestion was that perhaps, we should as well look at a trnafer fee. If you have the sale of home, you have a fee that's attached to the transfer of the title. I don't know how that works. Bird: I don't think you can do that legally. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: That's been thought of before. Stiles: I think our own ordinance doesn't allow that. [ mean, even if they demolish an existing home and replace it with the 3 units, they don't have to pay for that existing home. That's how the ordinance was set up. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9,2001 Page 89 De Weerd: They only pay for the difference? Bird: They pay for the 2 new --. Stiles: I think the BCA would still have --. Well, I don't know. De Weerd: The BCA is the ones that suggested it. Nichols: How would you know? Would you do it everytime it transferred? Are you only trying to get at those that never paid an impact fee? How are you going to know which ones paying or which one didn't? This house sold last year --. De Weerd: It would be with every transfer. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: So, some poor house would pay 5 times in 5 years, park impact fees? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: And if you moved 5 times, you would pay it 5 times. De Weerd: Yes, but they're talking something minimal you know like $100. It wasn't some --. It was trying to make so you didn't have to increase your park impact fee and you could actually make up additional fees by this. I do understand their concern because impact fees are raising the price of new construction. Anderson: But it's the new growth that's causing the park to need the park. Bird: Tammy, I disagree a lot to that. You know what's driving up the entry level homes in Boise and Meridian? Why they're going to Nampa and Caldwell? Parma and starting up, Middleton? The price of land. Its strictly the price of land. When you have to go out and buy 80 acres at $2.50 a square foot which would just purchase, its- Stiles: For residential? Bird: No, it's for commercial. But if you're paying that for commercial property, I mean, this could be --. 2.50 a square foot? Stiles: For commercial, you bet. Bird: Bare ground? Stiles: You bet. McCandless: I've heard a lot more than that being paid. Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 90 Bird: It's already developed. This is just an 80 acre piece of ground. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: What is that an acre? Bird: What is that an acre? 2 and a half? That's - Stiles: 8687,000. Bird: That's 100 and 22 and 88 is 112, or no 110. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: I'm glad I asked. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) bird: That's what I was going to. Tom, you'll work on this and see what we can do kid. We're staying on getting our county impact area fees? Kuntz: Actually, the prosecuting attorney called me and I sent him a copy of our ordinance (inaud ible). De Weerd: The prosecuting attorney? Or the County attorney? Kuntz: The prosecuting attorney. Bird: How about --? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: He called today and he was going to see us. De Weerd: Who is? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Public safety impact fees. Either one of our chief's got some input on that? Bowers: We have discussed it several times with Mike and John Wardle. Trying to see which would be the best way to go. The rural commissioners cannot impose a fee. So, theres no way they can do it. Its got to come on the City side. We've discussed it to like I said Wardle. He was going to go back and talk with the people, some of the Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 91 developers out here, the owners and all. He has not got back with me at all. How about you Ron? Has he got back with you at all? Anderson: Do you have anybody working on a capital development plan? You've got to have that before you can implement a fee anyway. Bowers: No. (inaudible). Anderson: Why not? You've got the committee (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bowers: No, I do not have that. They possibly might have sent that stuff when the rural commissioners got it from their attorney. Possibly it came with that. I'm not sure. Anderson: If you don't have that done before all this development starts to happen out there and everything's in place, you're going to mis out on all that impact fee. Bowers: I didn't know we were suppose to be doing that. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: So he knows what it needs to look like. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: You don't have a police impact fee --? (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I don't think anybody in the state does. De Weerd: Its called safety impact. Nichols: The City of Post Falls, I believe adopted an ordinance which covered some of this stuff and essentially set up a framework. It's a lot like the way our park impact fee ordinance fee reads. (inaudible) (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I firmly believe that we get all these impact fees and we will. It'll probably be one nice thing, we will stop growth. People will go (inaudible). Right now Meridian has very few entry level homes. I think we want to look at them and we want to be realisticv with them and make sure that we do have back up for them, (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 92 Bird: In Nampa, you can get them, Nampa, Caldwell area, entry levels are going for 90,000. This is coming form the board of realtors today. Meridian is 120,000. Corrie: And you've got to break even too in taxes. What will cost you more to have service (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Heres the amazing thing. I had a realtor, board of director realtor sit there and tell me I was wrong with our mill levy because his daughter was paying $800 on her house. I said, yes, but that 800 is total. That's 47 percent of it's the school, 22 to the city and 20 percent to the county. I said the City only gets 22 percent of that. People don't look at that. They look at the bottom end and they don't go to find out. All I'm saying is on all these impact fees and increaded fees that we're asking for, lets make sure we get back up on them. Okay, any other questions on the fees or anything? Issue #8 Discussion of Representatives for VIA TRAN Board Bird: Okay, Mayor you had one thing you wanted to --? Corrie: Yes, we've got the VIA Tran. We've got another slot because of the size of the City. Gary and I have been workgin with them. We need to name one primary representative (inaudible) and then 2 alternates. So, you need to think about that so that we can decide who you would like to (inaudible) and a resolution sent back to them. Gary and I are doing them now. Bird: They don't have to be 2 elected officials? Corrie: No. Bird: So, you and Gary could keep doing it. Corrie: And I need 2 alternatives. De Weerd: Mr. President? Bird: Yes. De Weerd: I had a citizen that expressed an interest in beign involved. I think he even goes to the meetings just as a member of the oublic. I cant remember his last name. Its David, his last name just escapes me. I could find out and get the name to you if you would like. Bird: (inaudible) Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 93 De Weerd: He has a business that he arranges transportation for large events. (inaudible) Corrie: Usually, like when Gary and I cant be there, that's when the representative makes the vote. Then they would follow what the City wants (inaudible). What I need is 2 names (inaudible). (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Stiles: When do they meet and how often? Corrie: ViA Tran is once a month. (inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: That's where I'm going Thursday- *** End of Side Five *** Bird: Anything else, Mayor? Shari, do you have anything? Mrs. de Weerd? Mr. Anderson? Anybody out there have anything? Kenneth? Bowers: I would like to invite you all to stop by station 1 and station 2. we've got our brass plaques up now with your names. They've been up for 2 months and they haven't fell down. You better get by and look at them real quick. Bird; You haven't had a fire yet? Bowers: No, fire. Come by and see them. Bird: While we're talking about that, how is that --? Is it all done yet? Bowers: No. they're waiting for the inspections for the building and electrical to come out. Then they can start sheet rocking an dcovering it up. Bird: Mr. Nichols, do you have anything? I'd entertain a motion to adjourn this thing. Anderson: So moved. Bird: Can I get a second? McCandless: Second. Bird: All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Meridian City Council Workshop October 9, 2001 Page 94 MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:37 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ~i;{J~ RT D. CORRIE, M'A YOR /( / 7 / (:J I DATE APPROVED \ \\l\ -n.\ P~'~-:_~'_,~ f r.!!!, \\\\ o.~ ~S::-"" .'>". ~, _ ,.1 ~n-4; _"'0'-1, .., ,:' :\~. ~).~ . '''<':;':;~::''': . ",.,> .~>:-& oq?O:l"~0.>';". ."".. A~~ -2 ,0' '~<~'. . ". - ~ M .~ . 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