Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutOctober 3, 2002 Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 35 of 84 Centers: Well, you mentioned the structure and we are not requiring the structure, we are talking about the monopole and antenna. The structure is going to match the -- Zaremba: The monopole structure is what I meant, not the building. Centers: Yes. Right. Not the building. Zaremba: I'd just leave the word structure out and just call it the monopole and the antenna array. Centers: Right. Zaremba: So amended. Centers: Second. Borup: We have a motion and second. Any discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 9. Public Hearing: CUP 02-026 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a 3817 square foot Carl's Jr. restaurant with a drive-thru in a CoG zone by Clayton Jones - on South Main Street, north of the Meridian Road and Main Street intersection: Borup: Thank you. Item Number 9, Public Hearing CUP 02-026, request for Conditional Use Permit for a 3,817 s quare foot Carl's Junior Restaurant a nd drive-thru in a CoG zone by Clayton Jones. It's on South Main Street, north of Meridian Road and the Main Street intersection. I'd like to open this Public Hearing at this time and start with the staff report. McKinnon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. This is a project that should be familiar to most of you. This is the building that was originally housing the Kentucky Fried Chicken at the location of the intersection of Main and 1st -- Main and Meridian Road. The building that is currently on the overhead in front of you, it looks like the building has been painted from the last time that it was brought in front of you and it was moved. The project was originally -- when theA&W-Kentucky Fried Chicken was approved for the site just to the south of the existing building. One of the site specific comments that was made and was approved in the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law was that the existing Kentucky Fried Chicken building would no longer be allowed to have a drive-thru. That was based on configuration that had a drive-thru on the north side of the building and now we are talking about either rebuilding or building a new building at this location to allow for the Carl's Junior restaurant to be located on the site. The building that's in front of you will be transformed into a Carl's Junior at the site plan -- it will be razed. Thanks, Bruce. This is the new site plan. I will go over it just briefly with you and just point out a few things. One of the original problems with this entire site was the lack of parking. There is not a great deal of parking for the A&W restaurant and a large portion of the parking for the A&W restaurant is this entire area and taking up some of the former Kentucky Fried Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 36 of 84 Chicken parking, A new configuration of the building on this lot would move the drive- thru lane from the north side of the building to the south side of the building, so people would enter along the western side of the property in the build and around the side of the building on the east side of the building, essentially, and change the location of the drive-thru and allow parking to come in on this side of the building and do some parallel parking on this side of the building. In addition to that, it would keep the parking spaces that are here and they have asked for parking spaces to be placed along the landscaping buffer and taking out a portion of the landscape buffer that's currently existing, however, they will only be reducing the buffer to the amount that would 20 feet from the back of the sidewalk, which is approximately the ten percent exception that we have talked about before. In the landscape ordinance it says if you have a narrow piece of property, you can reduce the required landscape buffer to 1/10th of the depth of the lot. The lot is approximately 170 feet deep from this point to this point, and that comes out to about 210 feet. It meets the intent of the ordinance by providing landscaping within that buffer and it increases the amount of parking on the site for both restaurants to be 50 spaces, which actually exceeds the amount of required parking for both restaurants. Because this a new building and not the existing building, the restriction on the type of -- the restriction on no -- excuse me -- the restriction on no drive-thru for this build is no longer applicable, because it applied only to the existing building that's on site. Within the staff report there is a number of requirements. I assume that you have those. The applicant is here tonight and staff supports this project. However, we do recognize that there is limited parking and that there is a high volume of traffic that will be generated by this project in an area that already has a high volume of traffic. However, it does meet the minimum requirements of the code and with that I would ask if there is any questions. Borup: Any questions from any of the Commission? Centers: Yes. Mr. Chairman so they are tearing this building down and starting over? McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Centers, that is my understanding, that the existing building will be torn down and a new Carl's Junior will be built in its place. Centers: And I guess I don't agree with the high volume of traffic. The reason I don't agree is because you're going to have it there -- people aren't going to drive to Carl's Junior, they are going to be -- they are, but most people I think are going to be in the area. There are cars that are going to drive through and get a sandwich and maybe instead of going to KFC, so I don't think you are -- that's going to draw a lot of people there, Would you agree? McKinnon: I would agree with that, Commissioners Centers. One of the main concerns on the high traffic volume would be on the interior. We have a Taco Bell, we have a Carl's Junior, and we have an A&W. That's pretty congested. Then when you consider that this is a two-way lane of traffic right here with people entering on Meridian Road, people entering and exiting onto Main Street. With the Taco Bell drive-thru exiting here, people coming around from Taco Bell here, A&W-KFC exiting, you have g at a lot of traffic converging on this traffic lane between Meridian and Main and there is congestion there. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 37 of 84 Mathes: Is that Bolo's right there also? McKinnon: No. Bolo's is actually further back this direction. Mathes: So they can get off on that new road? McKinnon: Bolo's would have to come off on these exits right here. Mathes: Okay. McKinnon: That does not exit directly onto Corporate. Zaremba: In the ACHD comments they ask that there be provided a recorded cross- easement access among the parcels to the north for access to the public street. Wouldn't it make sense for all of the parcels to have cross-easements? There is only one way in on one street and one way in on the other street and everybody has to use those driveways, which means that the new KFC-A&W would also have to be part of the process and access agreement. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, I believe there is actually an existing cross-access easement that's shared by Bolo's and the A&W-KFC, Taco Bell, and I guess -- Zaremba: That covers all four properties. McKinnon: I believe it does. T he applicant can a ddress that as well, but that's my understanding, there is one in place and the successor Carl's Junior would also be applied to that. Zaremba: Because I was going to say, it doesn't make sense to leave out the south property. They need this driveway, too. Okay. Good. Borup: This is still one property, isn't it? McKinnon: That's correct. It would still be one property. Borup: KFC and Carl's Junior is one lot owned by the same -- I don't think it has been divided. Zaremba: Okay. I have one other question on configuration, which I will also address with the applicant, but let me pass it by staff. I have used the -- I have patronized the Taco Bell and I expect to patronize the Carl's Junior. This part of the driveway is very unworkable. I realize that ACHD's concern is what happens out in the street, but because of -- and I'm glad to see that this will no longer be the drive-thru for this building. Because of this being a drive-thru for the Taco Bell, there is traffic heading this direction, people who attempt to exit this area, using this driveway to get onto Meridian Road, have traffic going this way on their right, which essentially is wrong way traffic to most drivers. Consequently, they tend to move over far enough that they are in this part of the lane to exit and particularly if they are intending to turn left. That stacks up traffic Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 38 of 84 out on Meridian waiting for these people to clear. M y suggestion would bet hat this landscape and curb area be cut off, so that the driveway is widened an additional 20 feet, so that it comes perpendicular from the roadway and this is -- this sign here by maybe three or four feet and at least widens the entrance to the driveway, so that people who want to come out and turn left aren't preventing people from turning in. Is that something that can be required? McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba, Ada County Highway District does limit the width on those accesses, so that you don't have people coming in across other lanes of traffic and they try to narrow those down. They need to be wide enough that people can get in and out and you can have a left turn lane, but typically into a commercial project they do not like to exceed 35 feet in width on those. If you remember, the original Kentucky Fried Chicken-A&W application that came before you showed that the site down here had a 40-foot wide access. Ada County Highway District asked them to channel that down and make it less wide. That would be something Ada County Highway District would have to approve to do that, something that may -- there is two things about this site plan that I think need to be pointed out. Number one, this isn't the newest revised plan, there have been some changes to the location of the reader board and that this area -- this island here has been removed and now it continues in a curved, linear line right here. Just wanted to point that out. There have been a few changes in the parking that have been modified a little bit. Sorry I don't have the correct site plan in front of you. The Taco Bell information we have been talking about has people come around -- the actual drive-thru starts in this location and wraps around the side. As you said, it's wrong way traffic. I think the thing that we need to address is the width between these -- I guess the drive width between this area -- very seldom does Taco Bell wrap all the way back and around that would push the traffic over to the -- to the south so far that it would block traffic coming in on Meridian Road and something that may be more appropriate would be looking at some sort of straightening, rather than widening, making it perpendicular, rather than an angled route to turn in on. Right now they are coming at less than a 90 -- this is actually a wider than 90 degree angle -- I think it's actually less than 90. Making it straighter may be the way to go, rather than having it in curves. Centers: David? McKinnon: Yes. Centers: But now that we are looking, did they need those four parallel parking spaces to meet the minimum-parking requirement? Alii see that they do right here is contribute to what Commissioner Zaremba is talking about and cause congestion and, you know, on the plan you have four stations here. Are they really needed? McKinnon: Commissioner -- Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Centers, per the ordinance it would not be required. However, based on market standards, which are different than the city standards, those spaces are going to be used. They need the spaces on that site. If Carl's Junior opens there with A&W-KFC, Taco Bell, the first lunch rush that all three of those buildings will take up all of their parking spaces that are available, even though it meets the minimum requirements. The applicant is here tonight and he has stated in his letter -- and I know he is prepared to talk about this, is they talked about Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 39 of 84 securing off-site parking for employees and if there is off-site parking that could be secured for those employees, I would have no problems saying we should eliminate those parking spaces. I do believe that there is going to be parking spaces that are going to be necessary, unless they have off-site parking. Centers: Well, you didn't answer my question, I don't think. Are they necessary to meet the code requirement for number of parking spaces per square footage on a retail operation such as -- McKinnon: They are not required per our code. Centers: Okay. Thank you. Then the applicant will address whether he really has to have them or doesn't have to have them. Okay. Thank you. Borup: Any further questions? Would the applicant like to make their presentation? Jones: Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Clayton Jones, I live at 14071 West Rochester Drive in Boise. I'm the franchise partner for Green Star Foods, which is a franchisee of Carl's Junior here local. I'm pleased to present this project for your approval and it's a great spot and I think it's a great use for our building. I would ask that on the Conditional Use application, that you amend or change the square footage to 3,901 is what -- is what's on your new site plans. Yes, we do propose to remove the old build KFC building and construct a new Carl's Junior restaurant more or less with the configuration in front of you up there. Exactly as the -- as what's in your packet. We had a few goals in mind when we came up with the site plan. Number 1, to provide adequate parking and, Number 2, to kind of decongest the center as it is and make it flow just a little bit better. What we did to hopefully improve the flow in there was to increase the space between the old KFC, which will be the new Carl's Junior, and the Taco Bell. You have got the Taco Bell, the drive-thru, then adjacent to that is a 24-foot, two-way aisle way, and then the parallel parking. I believe there is adequate room for all of those things and I would -- even though the parking isn't necessary to meet the requirements for parallel spaces, I think it would be helpful, as David did indicate, that, you know, lunches are pretty busy and I'm sure we will use all of that parking. Borup: What did you say the driveway width -- drive-thru -- Jones: Twenty-four feet. You got the existing Taco Bell drive-thru lane, then 24 feet, and then the parallel spaces. Borup: I don't remember. Is there a curbing off the Taco Bell lane? Jones: No, there is not. Borup: So it's just pavement? Jones: Right now it's just open. In our business, you know, we do encourage our employees to come together when -- you know, ride share and stuff like that whenever possible. We do generally have two shifts that work, those that work in the daytime, those that work in the nighttime, and when all possible we always like people to share Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 40 of 84 rides, especially in tight parking lots such as this. We will encourage our employees to do that. That's pretty much my presentation and would entertain any questions. Centers: Mr. Chairman? Mr. -- was it Jones? Jones: Yes. Centers: On your site plan -- do you have a plan in front of you? Jones: I do. Centers: Where you talk about the four spaces at 23 feet equals 90 -- okay. Four times 12 -- so each space is 23 feet in length or depth? Jones: Right. Centers: And they are nine feet wide? Jones: Yes, I believe that's what code is for parallel parking. Centers: Okay. I was trying to see how you arrived at your arithmetic of 24 feet. So you're really not certain of the Taco Bell drive-thru width, are you? Jones: I don't have that information, no. Centers: And we looked at a subdivision earlier where the minimum number went down to 29 feet, was it, Mr. Chairman? And then we -- Borup: No parking on one side. That was 29 less nine, so that would be -- if they had parking that would leave 20. Centers: Yes. Yes. Okay. Borup: But that's still tight. I mean theoretically we are talking four cars in 24 feet. Is that correct? One a drive-thru, one in parking, and two going each way -- Zaremba: The entire width between the buildings is 46 feet -- Borup: Oh, right. Zaremba: -- six inches. Borup: I'm sorry. Centers: But you're on the right track there, four times nine is 36. That's if they are stacked side by side. Borup: There is only 10 feet to divide between -- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 41 of 84 Centers: Yes. Zaremba: The driving lane and the roadway is how wide out on the street 12? McKinnon: It depends on the speed of the road as well, Commissioner Zaremba. Bruce and I just did the math, Commissioners, and the drive lane for Taco Bell is 12 feet wide. There is a 24-foot distance between the drive lane and the nine-foot wide parallel parking space. They do have a typical 12-foot wide aisle for two-way traffic between the drive-thru and the parallel parking. Rohm: I think on the map is -- I think what the Commissioners are saying is, you know, even though the math is there, it's still a very congested area and we are just trying to find a solution to that congestion. Centers: Well -. and we have seen the congestion. Rohm: Exactly, Centers: Personally I have seen it. Now the drive-thru on the other side, you know, of course, that was a given. It had to be, but that -- Rohm: That will help, for sure. Centers: Okay. Well-- Borup: Commissioner Centers, how -- or whoever mentioned that, part of the congestion problem is traffic cutting across going into Taco Bell. Centers: Yes and Mr. McKinnon pointed out that Taco Bell's drive-thru, they start back in here, but that is not always true. I have been there and done that, haven't you, Commissioner Mathes? Mathes: Yes. Centers: And you come through here and you flip a U and come in or -- Mathes: Or they come in off Meridian and -- Zaremba: Come off Meridian and -- Centers: Exactly and they come in through here both ways. I rarely see them using this. Rarely. Zaremba: I think the discussion is solving some of the congestion here by widening this area from its existing narrowness. Centers: You can't widen it unless he moves the buildings. Zaremba: Well, he has moved the building. That doesn't help me, though, with the entrance and exit up here. The congestion that I'm focusing on is that little area right Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3. 2002 Page 42 of 84 there. I guess my question to the applicant would be, we know your proposal is to rebuild this area and it would not be difficult for you to turn this, you're not planning on doing any rebuilding on this side of-- Jones: I don't know that I have that authority. Zaremba: Sot he difficulty is if A CHD says that this driveway can 0 nly be a certain width, you can't solve the problem of turning the whole thing and making it square, which puts me back to my desire to just widen it. What do we have to do with ACHD? Borup: Well, you can put an island in there, I think, would be the other option. A separate entrance, an island in the entrance. Zaremba: Specific in and out with a sign that says in and out? Borup: Well, no. Just a -- like an island in a subdivision entrance. Centers: Right. Zaremba: I could see that helping the flow a little bit. Borup: I'm not sure -- well -- Zaremba: Let me ask the applicant. What is your willingness to consider having this curbing go straight out to the street and then cut that off and maybe putting an island along what would be your property line? Jones: I personally wouldn't object, as long as we were able to, you know, get through ACHD and make sure that there was no objections from them as well and the property, as long as he agrees as well. Mathes: But you will still have problems with Taco Bell people coming in on that one side of the island, though. Jones: Might create a new problem. Borup: Well -- oh, you mean driving in on the wrong way? Mathes: Right. To get in the drive-thru. Borup: Yes, but it would be more obvious. It's not -- and especially if that island extends the curbing down a little ways. Zaremba: Just to make sure I stated this issue clear enough, the difficulty I see is that people trying to exit there -- particularly if they are turning left, are often on the wrong side of that roadway. Borup: That's because of traffic turning in. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 43 of 84 Centers: If you put an island maybe they will continue to do that. Jones: Mr. -- Commissioners, an off-the-cuff comment. I would hope that by adding the additional restaurant, maybe I would alleviate that problem of too many people in that one drive-thru, that they would go into the other one just a little bit more. Borup: Okay. Is there anyone else that would like to testify on this application? Come forward. Gibbs: My name is Jonathan Gibbs. I'm the administrative partner in G&H Enterprises, the property owner, and I'm at 9502 Scorpio in Boise, Idaho, is my address. When we submitted the application for the KFC, we tried to get a much wider drive-thru there and because we used to have the drive-thru at the other end, where it's now parking, and we were turned down by ACHD. They wouldn't allow any larger than that, and I agree with you, it would be nice to have even another 10 feet there, but they were pretty adamant on not letting us have anymore space there. Centers: Right there? Gibbs: Yes. Zaremba: I tend to agree with ACHD probably 98 percent of the time, but once in awhile they are wrong. Gibbs: Yes. I think it would help congestion in that particular location, but I don't how you -- whether you got some clout. We didn't. Borup: Do you want to take a look and see if that configuration is something you think may be feasible? Go ahead and take that. I just drew an island on there with a divider extending back a little bit. Jones: Okay. So, in essence we have a divided -- Borup: Just a divided entrance. Jones: The entrance to the south, is that still a two-way entrance on your proposal or is that -- Borup: Both of them would be one way. One -- you know, in and out. Do you want to put that on the screen, David, would that help? Oh, we are not set up. That's all right. Jones: Mr. Chairman? Borup: Mr. Jones. Jones: David is recommending or asking -- wondering if we just brought the extruded curb from Taco Bell's drive-thru up a little bit to force them, would that solve the problem, without confronting ACHD on their policy? Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 44 of 84 Mathes: Would that happen if you approved through Taco Bell, though? Borup: Is that a different property owner? Mathes: Or is it the same owner? Borup: Some of the same principals, though. You could probably talk to them. Jones: If I eliminated the parallel parking as part of my application, would that alleviate the traffic that I really can't control on Taco Bell enough to take care of the problem in your minds? Zaremba: Well, that part of the aisle way is wide enough to allow for that parking. I'm not sure that helps at the end of the driveway where i'm having a problem. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba specifically, the question is up in the -- I guess it would be the western entrance and the concern is people going from Taco Bell wrapping around, is that the major concern? Zaremba: Concern is that people exiting are having to move themselves out to avoid the opposite -- even if opposite direction traffic is very tightly aligned here, the outgoing traffic is on the wrong side of the driveway. Borup: I thought the concern was people turning in off of Meridian Road. Turning off Meridian Road into it. Zaremba: Yes. Centers: I think the island is a good remedy. Borup: Well, if they are following the drive-thru as it's intended, I don't see that much of a conflict. I thought you were talking about conflicts turning in from Meridian Road. Zaremba: The difficulty I have is -- and where I see problems is turning off of Meridian Road into that driveway when there is somebody on the wrong side of that driveway. Centers: Trying to get onto Meridian Road and turn left. Zaremba: Yes. Traffic exiting this group is on the wrong side of that driveway. Centers: Don't you think an island would pretty much force most of them to drive -- Zaremba: I like the island idea. I could buy into that. Centers: Yes some of them could cut the corner, but I think the island would remedy that. Zaremba: And if that satisfies ACHD that it -- you know, if they are going to count the two halves of the driveway separately and allow it, therefore, to function as a wider driveway -- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 45 of 84 Centers: I don't know. Do you have to talk to ACHD just to put an island in on your own property? I don't think you do, do you? Borup: Well, you have to -- if it affects the entrance onto their road I think you would. I think they have to approve the wider -- I mean the -- Gibbs: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, we will work including the Taco Bell property and the other -- whatever will alleviate the congestion in that driveway area. We are having problems with people coming into Taco Bell instead of going through the driveway that's designed of going right out into Meridian Street and that's what's causing the problem at this point. Whatever we need to do, I think it would behoove, you know, all restaurants in the area to get it as workable as we can. Borup: That's going to help your business if it flows smoothly for-- Gibbs: Sure. Borup: Okay. So how do we want to handle -- oh, we got one more to testify. Go ahead, sir. Atteberry: My name is Phil Atteberry. I live at 1756 Stonybook, Eagle. 83616. I represent Kentucky Fried Chicken - A&W. This is the first time I have seen this site plan and if I could I'd like to point out some problems that we would have and some problems we have right now, so you can consider that. This exist -- enter and exit you're talking right here is just a mess. I'm in agreement with you. If somebody drives a Suburban or a truck, pickup truck, when they come across here and pull out there, they completely block off the entrance part 0 f that. I t's just the angle it's at nobody can turn in. At lunchtime Taco Bell generally backs up into that enter and exit also. The other problem is, is parking. On a Friday evening Bolo's normally takes up all of their parking, all of Taco Bell's, and most of this parking up here. This evening when I left there -- right now we have parking along side of the existing building, plus in front here. We had one parking spot and cars waiting to take that one for two hours this evening. Where you're going to get a nother restaurant here with another d rive-thru -- and 0 ur d rive-thru we have ten cars up to here and for about two hours this evening we had 16 cars, which brought us up to here. Parking -- and it's a jam in there. Granted, at the first of the month we have coupons out, so we are very very busy and that's not like that every night, but the first of the month is people eat and go out at all the restaurants in here, so the parking is just a big -- it's a disaster in there right now. Well, especially if you add another drive-thru here, if the speaker is here, these cars here are going to be out in here. Some of these parking spots, as tight as this is right now, it's hard for me to tell if there is going to be enough room in there for a car to back out when you have got cars in the drive-thru. I really think that before a decision is made, I think on an evening when it's very busy out there or something, the Commissioners could go to that site and see what it's like out there. The other concern is having a playground inside here, because people tend to spend a lot more time in a place where there is a playground and it's a fast food restaurant, naturally, but I would think there would be a little bit of concern about how long they are going to be there and parking. If we could really do something that -- no matter what goes there, something really needs to be done with this connection, because it just does not function at all. I don't know -- this one seems Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 46 of 84 to work out fine, but I just think the angle of that one when cars pull out they pull at -- if they are coming from our restaurant they pull out into that at an angle. Zaremba: Your building was approved before I was on the Commission. What's the square footage of your building? Atteberry: The square footage of our building? Zaremba: Yes. Atteberry: It's 3,400 square feet. Zaremba: So the proposed Carl's Junior is like 500 square feet more than yours? Atteberry: That's correct. Centers: Mr. Atteberry, are you saying that for two hours straight you had a minimum of 16 cars in your drive-up? Atteberry: At the max point we had -- sometimes we had 16 cars in that drive-thru. Centers: Sometimes but you're not saying for two hours straight you had 16 in line? Atteberry: I mean it dropped down to probably 12, then right back up to 16. Centers: Yes and I would think that you or someone would talk to Bolo's -- Atteberry: Well, you know, we are all in there together. It's a little hard to prevent those people from parking, other than towing their cars, but-- Centers: Yes. Atteberry: You know, it's sort of a common area. Centers: That's sure what I would do if I were a business owner there, you know. Atteberry: You know, I don't know what they have going on Friday nights, if they have live music or something, but it seems like it fills up -- they do quite the business there. Centers: But-- Atteberry: You k now I really don't k now what Taco Bell does, because Bolo's really encroaches on their parking. I mean it just completely wipes them out there. Zaremba: Just a suggestion. The difficulty, probably, is that the Bolo's people would stay much longer. It might be an idea for both your area and the Carl's Junior area to mark all of those with 45 minute parking or something like that. Atteberry: That could be a possibility. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 47 of 84 Zaremba: Depending on how long people stay in your restaurant that are not using the drive-thru. Atteberry: And Bolo's is usually Friday and Saturday nights. In fact, I think they have live music or something going on and people stay a long time or -- they have a huge crowd. During the week I don't usually see -- Mathes: Over at the mall where Burger King and Cafe Ole' are together, in front of Burger King all the signs are Burger King customers only. There has been employees come out and tell people. Atteberry: Right. Centers: Yes. I think it's up to the individual business owners to control the use of their parking in t heir facility a nd I don't think we should dictate how to dot hat. They are business people and they should know how to do it. Atteberry: Well, just like this evening -- like tonight, I mean Bolo's I don't think was in the -- in the factor. Tonight is Thursday night and they don't usually have a big crowd on Thursday night. We have parking -- we have parking right now along this side of the existing building and it was -- tonight was completely -- we had all the parking full. Now this right here would be all new parking, here, and here. This -- the parking that's here and the parking that's here would go away that's existing right now. There would be no Centers: You would be losing parking. Atteberry: Yes, we would be losing parking. Well, plus the area around that drive-thru, I mean it is -- it is hard to maneuver in this area right here right now, let alone have the cars stacked out to here. I just don't know how it's going to work. I don't know if this is the best design for this area or if this size building is workable, because if you go over there now, this is a jam right here. Even when we don't -- we have cars to about right here, well, it's a jam right here. Now I don't know if the design of the building is different, you know, compared to -- you know. If you could overlay where the existing building is, it might be easier for me to make a comment on it, but I know this right here is a -- we are backed up in there when somebody tried to come through here or comes back around. You're going to have these people here -- I don't know -- is this just showing a different kind of -- see there, that's just a property line. If these people try to exit around here and we have cars backed up here, we have got a mess there, too. Borup: Anything else? Thank you. Come on up, sir. Munson: My name is Steve Munson. I actually reside at 11671 Jenilyn Court in Boise. I'm coming as a consumer. I like Carl's Junior, I think they make good food, I like Kentucky Fried Chicken, and I like all of them. Why there? I mean seriously. You know, of all the places, there has got to be other places in Meridian. I have been in the parking lot during rush hour. It's hard to maneuver without putting a fourth restaurant there. It just doesn't seem practical. I mean it seems -- actually, it seems insane, to be honest, because you're not adding any other parking, only that you're adding an extra Meridian Planning and Zoning CommissIon Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 48 of 84 drive-thru, you're a dding, you know, extra customers, it's j ustg oing to complicate an already crowded area, end of story. It's already -- I mean it's not too crowded right now, because they moved back and you know, created extra parking, but you put a high volume r estau rant like Carl's Junior i n there, w here are the people going top ark? I don't see how it makes good business sense, you know, to -- for any of them, you know, to add that much more customers without having any compensation for extra parking or, you know, as already pointed out obvious -- it's already hard to maneuver in there. You add the other drive-thru, plus additional parking on that side that currently isn't there, I just don't see how it's going to work and there has got to be other places in Meridian that they can locate without crowding up that already crowded spot. Thank you. Centers: Thank you. Borup: Any comments from any Commissioners? Zaremba: I don't know if the applicant can answer this question or not. What is the square footage of the Carl's Junior that's in Boise on Broadway? Jones: The Broadway restaurant is configured a little bit different and it's -- with the restroom I believe it's 3,600 square feet. Centers: How about over at Crossroads? Jones: Crossroads is a huge restaurant and this is quite a bit smaller. It is 4,600 square feet. This is 39. The difference is the playground area. It's not anywhere as big as the one on Meridian in Eagle. Mathes: Do you happen to know how big the existing old KFC is? Jones: It's about the same square footage. I believe it's 3,400, 3,500 square feet. It's just configured more in a square. Mathes: Yes. Jones: Could be 31. Mathes: Thirty-one? Borup: How big is your playground area? Jones: Ninety square feet. Borup: So your building without that would be 3,000? Jones: Yes and, actually, I put the original building and the original plan was -- was without the playground. The site plan was identical. That whole big triangle out there was, in essence, wasted space, so I was able to put a small playground on there without changing the site plan at all. To address Kentucky Fried's concerns a little bit, we did open up the backside of the drive-thru area by removing that -- that planter area right there and it's addressed on your site plan. Actually, I do believe that we picked up Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3. 2002 Page 49 of 84 versus the existing old KFC and the KFC parking that's on there, I do believe we still pick up 10 or 12 spots. Centers: So this is your playground area correct? Jones: Right. That's right out in -- Centers: So - yes and if you did eliminate that, you wouldn't pick up anymore parking, would you? Jones: Not one more. Centers: It would be -- you would gain a little area in here. Jones: The site plan was identical. Schick: My name is Jeremy Schick. I'm the restaurant general manager of the KFC- A&W. One thing I wanted to point out that hasn't really been touched much tonight is the employee parking. Our restaurant, the KFC-A&W, we have anywhere between 35 and 45 employees. Even if they are ride sharing -- you know, we also have two crews, morning and night, and during the day we have anywhere from 15 to 20, at night about five more than that, even if they are ride sharing, that's a good seven, eight cars on top of the -- all the spots that you're seeing for the existing KFC-A&W. I know they talked a little bit about the off-site parking. I haven't heard where that would be or how easily accessible that would be to either Carl's Junior or ourselves. I mean I think that's a great idea, too, I just -- I can't see that as feasible, because right now even with employees we take up a good 20 stalls. Borup: Take up how many? Schick: A good 20. Centers: You don't have enough. Schick: No. Borup: Maybe we need to enact a CUP and have them remove their business? Centers: Shouldn't have expanded there. I mean just -- well, but the site -- obviously, your site and this site met code as far as parking requirements and I grilled our planner heavily on that and nailed it down, it meets code, and I assume that yours did when it passed. I was here, but I don't recall -- yes, it did. I guess what you would be losing would be some parking that's presently there that's vacant. Schick: Yes. Centers: And-- Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3. 2002 Page 50 of 84 Schick: All I wanted to point out is we have a lot of congestion there and, you know, with employee parking, it -- even if it is off site, it still takes up quite a bit. Centers: I think what needs to be done is someone -- or the business owners there need to talk to Bolo's, the business owners need to get together with someone and encourage their employees to park at a rented site of their choosing. Down the street behind Les Schwab there is a vacant lot that was just purchased by Les Schwab and I'm sure they would make some kind of arrangement. Schick: Only except for Friday night they really aren't a part of the issue. Centers: Okay. Schick: Thank you. Borup: Do we have anyone else? Yes, sir. Gibbs: I will address the employee parking. I have inquired of John's Auto and two other sites there for 24 parking spots for employees, which would amount to six parking spots for each of the four restaurants on that site. We do intend, if we put this project in, to get some parking -- it will be across the street on one of those lots, and we are looking at acquiring about 24 parking spots. Centers: So you have -- Gibbs: We haven't done that yet. We haven't finalized -- we haven't finalized this project, so -- Centers: So if we made that a requirement it would come to pass. Gibbs: I bet it would. Centers: You have opened some discussions for that and it's available? Gibbs: Yes, it is. Centers: By making it a requirement, what I meant to say, really, was that it wouldn't be impossible to meet. Gibbs: Oh, no. Centers: Okay. Very good. Gibbs: I have got four restaurants there and they are good restaurants and we want to - - you know, make them work and we want to have parking -- adequate parking and we need to get some additional parking for the employees. I realize that. Centers: And I commend you as the owner for being here. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3. 2002 Page 51 of 84 Gibbs: Thank you. Borup: Does that make it easier? Centers: Yes, it does. Well, I think we ought to close the Public Hearing. I would make that motion. Mathes: Second. Borup: Motion and second. All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Centers: I guess, you know, I totally agree with Commissioner Zaremba. I think this applicant should have to widen that -- or whatever, make it better, ingress and egress is ridiculous. I think leaving those four parking spaces would be preferable now that I hear all this and make a requirement that the property owner and the applicant make arrangements for at least 24 off-street -- or off-site parking spaces, because I think this applicant I think deserves a chance to contribute to the City of Meridian's tax dollars. Zaremba: I would go along with that kind of a motion. Borup: Well, that was a discussion comment, wasn't it? Centers: Yes. Well-- Zaremba: If you're going to phrase a motion like that, you have my support. Centers: Go for it and I would agree with you. Zaremba: Did we close the Public Hearing? Centers: Yes. Zaremba: All right. In that case, Mr. Chairman? Borup: Commissioner Zaremba. Zaremba: I move that we forward to the City Council recommending approval of CUP 02-026, request for a Conditional Use Permit for a 3,901 square foot Carl's Junior restaurant with a drive-thru in a CoG zone by Clayton Jones on South Main Street, north of Meridian Road and Main Street intersection, to include all staff comments, with the following changes. On Page 1 of the staff comments there is a typo at the bottom of the page -- there is a sentence that says the following uses surround the subject property. There is a correct listing and then, again, it says the following uses surround the subject property and there is a listing that does not relate to this property. I would delete that second mentioned. In addition, I would add the requirement t hat there be provision made for 24 off-site parking spaces to be used by employees of any and all of the four existing restaurants. In addition, I would make the requirement that some solution be made to the ingress-egress driveway at Meridian Road to be worked out between the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 52 of 84 applicant, city staff, and A CHD. Whether that involves widening ita nd putting in an island in the middle of it, that would be my suggestion, but whatever they work out, that that be solved. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba, a couple questions based on that motion. The first one stemming from the employee parking. If they were required to provide the 24 off-site spaces, would you require that prior to occupancy of the building? Centers: Oh, yes. Zaremba: Let's add that. Yes. McKinnon: Okay. And the second question with that is if ACHD says we don't want any changes to that intersection, how would that last requirement to the comment be enforceable? Zaremba: If ACHD simply refuses to consider any of the other alternatives, including widening it and putting an island in there, I'm not sure we have any way of enforcing that. Centers: Well, the last alternative would be at least an island. Zaremba: No. Widening and an island. McKinnon: Mr, Chairman, Members of the Commission, the island would be something that Ada County Highway District would have to approve. Recommending approval on the project without ACHD's approval -- you want to have something written back from ACHD prior to this going to Council? At this point are you going to want to continue it and see w hat those changes are 0 r would you I ike it to move 0 n to Council without knowing what the result would be? Zaremba: Would you be comfortable if that solution was provided to you two weeks before City Council hearing? McKinnon: What will go to the City Council would be a recommendation and the only thing that we would be able to add to that recommendation that you make tonight would be a position statement from staff. Position statements are fairly simple to write, we could make those comments with plenty of time to spare, because it's not a rewrite of the staff report. However, Ada County Highway District, if it's something that is in opposition of their policy, it may require that they go in front of the Commission, which would not have enough time to make a recommendation prior to this going to Council. That would be my concern if ACHD -- Centers: Well, if I could interject. Personally, I think they should have it prior to Council and if that's not the next meeting or the meeting after, then so be it. I think they should have it prior to Council. McKinnon: I agree. I think it needs to be prior to Council. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 53 of 84 Zaremba: I think the issue is whether we should continue this and have that settled before we -- before it goes forward or whether we should forward leaving that hanging. McKinnon: And that's your call. We can make those requirements. However, if the City Council doesn't have the opportunity to review what ACHD has done, I guess they would have to table it at that point, but if you're comfortable with making a motion saying that whatever can be worked out -- Zaremba: I'm comfortable with not having to see it again and I assume that something will be worked out or can't be worked out. Borup: And that would move it along sooner. McKinnon: But then you move it on to Council with the recommendation that they tried and they discussed with ACHD and themselves and the current configuration would be acceptable? Zaremba: It has to be. McKinnon: That would be acceptable? Okay. That's fine. I just wanted some clarification. Zaremba: Yes. McKinnon: Thank you, Borup: Was that a strong enough statement that Mr. McKinnon just made? Try? Zaremba: Well, I mean -- Borup: I guess -- Zaremba: I don't know if I want to add to my motion the result of it if it can't be worked out. I think that becomes -- the default position is if otherwise can't be done. Borup: No. I think your motion was a little stronger than he stated. Zaremba: I would leave the if not out of the motion. We all just understand that if not, it can't be done. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba, question for our Legal Counsel. Nick, how do you feel that that language should be written? You're the one that's going to be writing the recommendation, so I'd like to hear how you -- Wollen: It's kind of tough, because not only do we have ACHD in there, but we also have the other property -- we have the other businesses, the other property owners involved in this as well. Centers: There is one property owner. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 54 of 84 Wollen: Well, I'm sorry, okay. We have the other businesses involved as well. It's going to be -- it's going to be tough on the enforceability issue and -- I mean we have to worry about putting in something where there is no muscle behind it, just, you know, best efforts provision in the rec. At the same time I don't know how much we can do having ACHD basically having veto power over any entrance -- entrance and exit provisions we make. Borup: That's why it would be important to have ACHD already looked at it and make their ruling prior to City Council. Centers: Yes. Zaremba: The comfort zone with this is that I got the sense that the applicant understands what the problem is and is anxious to solve the problem as well. I don't have any difficulty leaving it in the applicant's hands to wrestle with ACHD. Centers: Well -- and if ACHD is unwilling to cooperate, then City Council knows our feelings. If they want to take the issue to City Council, you know, it's on record, they know that we feel that there is an access problem there and so I think they are going to make the best effort with ACHD. McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, we still can write into the recommendation that we get some sort of written comment back from ACHD prior to Council. Zaremba: An explanation -- McKinnon: An explanation. Zaremba: Either approval or an explanation of a disapproval? McKinnon: Prior to Council. I think a written one would be the best way to deal with that, so that there is no misunderstanding. If ACHD says, yes, this is what they propose, this is what we feel about it, and then we have got something in writing that says here is what ACHD has to say about it and there is no hearsay or third-party interjection. Borup: They can make their comments. Zaremba: I will add to my motion that the ACHD response, either of approval or a reason for denial, is required. Borup: In writing. Zaremba: In writing. Centers: Second. Borup: Motion and second. Any other discussion? Do you have any questions on that motion, Nick? Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 3, 2002 Page 55 of 84 Wollen: Frankly, Mr. Chairman, it's something that I'm going to look at the minutes prior to the drafting the final recommendations for approval of the City Council. Borup: That's what you said the last time we had one of those types of motions. Wollen: Just because it's going to take some time to draft out, I believe, what -- as far as the ACHD portion of it, that would be something that I will certainly look at the motion itself and I'll word it how I believe Commissioner Zaremba intended it to be worded, but - Zaremba: Just for clarification, I would only add that there were three elements. One, that there was a typo on Page 1, two, 24 off-site parking spaces, and a resolution of this entrance-exit on Meridian. However those are worded, those are the subjects. Wollen: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Borup: We have a motion and second. All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 10. Public Hearing: RZ 02-003 Request for a Rezone of 4 acres from R-4 to L-O zones for Cherry Lane Christian Church by Cherry Lane Christian Church - 2511 West Cherry Lane: Item 11. Public Hearing: CUP 02-027 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a Preschool and school to prepare children for Kindergarten and move up one grade a year in existing classrooms and existing building in a proposed L-O zone for Cherry Lane Christian Church by Cherry Lane Christian Church - 2511 West Cherry Lane: Borup: Thank you. Our last items, Number 10, and 11. Number 10 is Public Hearing RZ 02-003, a request for rezone of four acres from R-4 to L-O zone for Cherry Lane Christian Church by Cherry Lane Christian Church at 2511 West Cherry Lane and a CUP 02-027, request for a Conditional Use Permit for a preschool and school to prepare children for kindergarten, et cetera, on the same project. I'd like to open both these Public Hearings at this time and start with the staff report. McKinnon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. Again to the overhead. The site that we are talking about is located on the south side of Cherry Lane. The existing Cherry Lane Christian Church. The church use will remain. Essentially, what they are asking for is a rezone to the proper zone. Currently it's zoned R-4 and in the R-4 zone a church use is not a permitted use. They were essentially grandfathered. With the change to the L-O zone, it would become a zone that would allow for the church uses, so that can clean up on the rezone. With the rezone, finding staff has no concerns with those. Staff supports the rezone. If we can skip ahead to the Conditional Use Permit for the private school or preschool. There are a few issues that come into play on this. I'll address the issues with the private school first and then some overall site issues that we need to discuss tonight. Concerning the private day- care, preschool, kindergarten, the intent is at this time for the church to open this as a