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Home My WebLink About2002-04-17 CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCil SPECIAL MEETING AGENDA Wednesday, April 17, 2002 at 5:30 p.m. City of Meridian Wastewater Treatment Plant 3401 N. Ten Mile Road Meridian, ID 1. . Roll-call Attendance: ~ Tammy de Weerd )( Bill Nary '< Cherie McCandless 'X' Keith Bird -L Mayor Robert Corrie 2. Adoption of the Agenda: 3. Discussion of proposed Amendment to the ~omprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian: . ?ti.rvuJ'.red- /Cll1d ttJe ~ap tflJ,~>>-wL vl fJ / t( .Je- t-' kv Jt..I.t d. n"e,f ol/L J I ht~d /.IJ; ~ () z. ~ 6 r ~ &> ;:>~ Meridian City Council Special Meeting I Workshop Agenda -April 17, 2002 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing please contact the City Clerk's Office at 8884433 at least 72 hours prior to the public meeting, CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING AGENDA Wednesday, April 17, 2002 at 5:30 p.m. City of Meridian Wastewater Treatment Plant 3401 N. Ten Mile Road Meridian, ID 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd x Bill Nary Keith Bird X Cherie McCandless x X Mayor Robert Corrie 2. Adoption of the Agenda: 3. Discussion of proposed Amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian: Discussed land use map. Continued Public Hearing set for Wednesday, May 1S\ 2002 at 6:30 p.m. . Meridian City Council Special Meeting I Workshop Agenda -April 17, 2002 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing please contact the City Clerk's Office at 8884433 at least 72 hours prior to the public meeting, Meridian City Council Special Meetin~ April 17, 2002 The Special Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 5:45 P.M. on Wednesday, April 17, 2002, by Mayor Robert Corrie. Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Keith Bird, Bill Nary, Cherie McCandless, and Tammy de Weerd. Others Present: Gary Smith, Steve Siddoway, Brad Hawkins-Clark, and Will Berg Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird X Mayor Robert Corrie Corrie: All right. I'll open the City Council Special Meeting April 17, 2002, at 5:45 at the Wastewater Treatment Plant and we'll have roll call attendance. Do you want me to do it? Berg: Go for it. Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Corrie: Item 2 is adoption of the agenda, which is a discussion of the proposed amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian. Bird: Mr. Mayor. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Bird: Go ahead. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move we approve the agenda. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion is made and second to approve the agenda. Any further discussion? All those in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Meridian City Council Special Comp ....,an Meeling April 17, 2002 Page 2 Item 3. Discussion of proposed Amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian: Corrie: Item 3, discussion of the proposed amendment to the Comp Plan for the City of Meridian. I'll let you fellows open up. I think we at least got a lot of the first part now we're in the land use. Brad, Steve? (Inaudible discussion from staff) Hawkins-Clark: If I recall, last session we got through most all the text. We're here to talk about the maps. There's a couple of ways we could probably go, Mayor, Members of the Council on the -- it seems like to me the requested changes map is in the front of the notebook and it (inaudible) except for this one that was received April 15th I think. That should reflect all requested changes. (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: (Inaudible)'ifthere's anything new that came up the day after this was made. I don't know if (inaudible). Nary: Are we talking about the updated March 13th map? Hawkins-Clark: Right. Bird: March 13, 2002? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: Dated March 13th, right. If you recall the first hearing that we had, we actually had a similar map. This one is different. What we did at that first meeting is we went section by section and we kind of did a brief summary on all the requested property changes that were in that section and any feedback that Council had or questions or clarifications. Then we just kind of moved on and didn't make any recommendations or decisions on those at that point of course. I guess the point of this is to kind of give us some direction for you to get any feedback if there's any request for additional information or further research that you would like to see on any of these areas. There are the three different categories there. The green being all of the citizen or property owner requests that - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: It's up there. Bird: It's right there. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Special Comp rran Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 3 Hawkins-Clark: So, I guess one approach is to follow the same sort of work from northwest down to southeast or you know kind of work clockwise around it, in terms of section wise. If you've already reviewed them and you want to ask specific questions on a specific call outs here, you can certainly go that route too. Siddoway: Mr. Mayor. If I had one thing to add it would be that, I would actually take a step back from this and first have some general discussion about this map. First of all, get in your minds an idea of what you think it should look like in general. What I mean by that is, do you agree with the general concept that we should be more dense towards the center and going out to these lighter green colors that you see around the perimeter? So, basically do we want to go with lessened density as we get out to the edge of the impact area? (Inaudible) these neighborhood centers where there (inaudible). Do you like where the industrial, commercial uses are? Residential uses in general, are they in the right places? Once we have a general idea of yes we like the overall concept of the way that map looks or not, then take these requested changes one by one in light of that and say okay does this fit in with the concept that we are trying to create for the city's impact area? Bird: Mr. Mayor.' Steve, I've got a question on the -- up there. The neighborhood centers; I'm still not - and maybe this is developer, their thinking. I don't like it in the middle.! think you could take and do one or two, where you've got one two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight of them shown in the centers there I think you could do a couple, three of them on the corners and get much better use out of the land and stuff. Is there a reason behind having them in the center of the mile? Siddoway: There is and you have in the back of your packet a memo about neighborhood centers. I can -let's see if I can turn to where that is talked about. Nary: Before we get to that Steve too is this map of the neighborhood centers or is it more of this design of the mixed-use classification map that's realistically what the staff is looking at now more than this one? Siddoway: Even on that map they're still on the half-mile. . Nary: True but there's only four. Bird: Yes. You've cut it down quite a bit. He was up at this map saying that was the map that we were looking at and (inaudible) your memo Steve. Beyond that I - Siddoway: Let me - Bird: -- which one are we -- I mean, you've really cut it down here. Siddoway: This is the proposed map from the Planning and Zoning Commission. Meridian City Council Special Comp t-'Ian Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 4 Bird: Okay. Siddoway: We are requesting on this map that several of them be removed for specific reasons. We have the - I'll just give (inaudible) this one we think should go away because we recently approved a commercial corner here which would make that one obsolete. Down here we show one that's surrounded by mixed-use which would be largely commercial (inaudible) force the (inaudible) commercial and other larger commercial right adjacent to it probably wouldn't work. We've taken some areas like that where we've tried to refine it and they show up on that map in blue because they are staff recommendations to remove them. Some background on why they're on the half miles. In a nutshell, we still see them as being on a corner. We would just emphasize that if they were on a corner of an arterial and collector, not at an arterial, arterial intersection. They're still at intersections but they're not at the arterial, arterial intersections, which we were trying to keep for movement of traffic. That has been one of the debates as to whether these belong there or at the arterial intersections. Bird: Steve, I've been thinking and I'm just bringing this out for talk. I've been trying to think of any neighborhood'centers that are in the middle of a mile road. I can't think of any in Boise. Not that I'm saying not that there isn't some but I just can't think of any. Siddoway: So much of it depends on design. Actually, Larry Durkin came and testified about some that he found that were on half miles and were successful in other cities. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Texas, Wal-Mart in Meridian is probably the main example of a major commercial that is not on an intersection. Bird: At the same token they're bounced off of a shopping center that is on the deal. I mean I can name you a whole bunch of them. If you go to the shopping center you know Black Eagle over on the corner of Overland and Maple Grove took commercial development down the whole north side of Overland Road once it got going. You're seeing new little office buildings and everything. I agree. Siddoway: The closest - Bird: But, I've never seen one that I've seen in the middle of it. Siddoway: The closest example that I can think of right here in Meridian would be Fairviewand Hickory where Louie's Pizza is. That's the half-mile. It's not exactly half mile but part of -- Hickory is a collector. Fairview is an arterial. Louie's is right there. Louie's is not on the corner of Fairview and Eagle it's at the half-mile. Bird: I wouldn't consider that a neighborhood center. Siddoway: It's not designed as one but it is a commercial use that's on the half-mile. Meridian City Council Special Comp t-,an Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 5 Bird: You can go right across the street where Snake River Yamaha office, and them are. They're sitting down close -- they're about up to the road there across from Louie's there. They're there because that corner eventually is going to be all commercial or you know banks offices, something. I don't know. We go out in here where you know that probably 75 percent of the stuff out here is going to be housing regardless of what density. I don't know, I just I have a real problem with putting those centers in the middle of the road. I would think you could take one -- I like wrapping around like the one is there. I think you can also by doing that having your traffic flow on the outside of that circle and you cut down a lot of traffic at an intersection. Don't let the intersection take them outside and go around. I'm trying to think of where that's been done at in Boise. I think it's in a residential deal where the actual intersection you swing out around it. You go around it- De Weerd: R.e. Willey does that. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: R. C. Willey? Yes, you're right Tammy. De Weerd: Thatworks. Bird: That works so you don't -- you know you take some of your traffic out of your intersection I think it helps everybody. Anyway, I'm just throwing this out so everybody can jump in. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor I think at our last meeting we kind of talked about the mixed-use designations, how many there are and all the Conditional Use Permits that are going to be required for it. I think, were you not going to kind of evaluate how many we have and if there's a way we can get more specific and reduce the amount of CUP that are going to be required? Did you have a recommendation on that? Hawkins-Clark: We do not. We got about half way through the last two years. About a year in terms of coming up with a list to show you, what the differences were in terms of the conditions. It did start at -- the biggest probably point was that if we look at the majority of the mixed-use areas, they're going to have annexations with them. One question is whether or not you think that a Conditional Use with an annexation at the same time is also a burden or if it's just -- that would be -- I mean, you're going to see the annexations anyway. In terms of time for the developer, it's really no more time on their side because the time frame to process the annexation is going to be the same as to process the Conditional Use. What we heard last time was to just get rid of as much of Conditional Use as possible even if it's in a new annexed area, then that is hopefully what some of this will finish up. De Weerd: I guess two things that can solve some of that. One would be that like I think, we've talked about where they've done in EI Dorado and Silverstone and they're Meridian City Council Special Comp t-,an Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 6 allowed flexibility on the lot sizes or combining two together depending on the footprint of the building and that sort of thing. If we could build in some more flexibility in terms of that. The second one would be really identifying where there are special issues that you would really - it's absolutely a necessary must to have a CUP. You know, if we can make annexing and doing a Preliminary Plat and not have to penalize them to come back if they get a client that comes in that has a larger footprint than what one of their lots were shown to be kind of like the flexibility that they have in EI Dorado and that sort of thing. That would solve a lot of issues. Siddoway: As I understand one of the biggest issues is the fact that these areas require a CUP regardless of the use. Regardless of whether the schedule of use control said that would otherwise be a permitted use. At least one of the ideas last time that was batted around was perhaps making the MURG areas not require a Conditional Use necessarily because they tend to be located along major arterials. With some exceptions, they're not usually adjacent to existing residential. These others, the MUC and the MUN in many, many cases are infill projects but you don't see the MURG showing up where we have (inaudible) situations. Then we left that because we were talking about how we don't want to penalize the infill ones with the Conditional Use Permit and make them more difficult. They are more sensitive and you may still want that. Bird: (Inaudible) you know on your Development Agreement, you can take care of I think a lot of the CUP in that. It's like Tammy said, by having a footprints, you know where they can be moved a little without having to come back before us as a CUP. I think you can do that. Every time you annex, you zone a person. In that zone, certain things are allowed. If they're 10 square feet too much or something, we make them come back for a CUP. To me that is - and you know like I said, last time and four years I've sat through all these CUPs very rarely do we have any objections from the public or anything like that. I mean, 75 percent of them just go through like that but it's taking the developer or the builder another three to four months to get through the process. De Weerd: With the infill, you have an annexation issue where they have to go through Public Hearing anyway. I don't like to see annexation without the Preliminary Plat so wouldn't that take care of it? Siddoway: As long as (inaudible). Nary: Mr. Mayor. The problem sometimes ends up though is that we're not necessarily required to do that. I recognize that the Council doesn't have to agree to annex it. They don't have to bring a plat. Many times, not many but certainly there are times when they don't. They just want to be annexed. They want to be on City service and they don't -- sometimes they don't even know exactly what they're going to do with it yet. We don't have a tool to do that but I still agree with what Councilman Bird is saying is that we still should be able to combine, even on infill projects. They certainly are, I think Steve said a minute ago. There certainly are certain types of in fill projects that we would want to still maintain that level of control because they are adjacent to existing Meridian City Council Special Comp hdn Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 7 homes and things. Those are the ones that generally have the most objections on them. Because people want to make sure, there are buffers, there's a wall, or there's some green space or whatever between those projects and transition space and such. There are other ones that probably aren't necessary and I think that was why the discussion was around the regional ones because of the larger -- you know one of the things to think about I guess philosophically is when we're trying to create this map. It is just a guideline. It's a lot easier to be a little more restrictive and see how the development through the market occurs. Then change that to meet those things as those things happen. I'm not saying it has to be like how we've designed it but it's a lot easier to do that. I'll tell you it'll be 10 times harder to have a Comprehensive Plan discussion at either the Planning and Zoning level or at Council level where we're trying to make it more restrictive than it already was. It's a lot easier to have it a little bit more restrictive and then as we see how the market develops and how the evolution of the growth is to say whether or not that still works and that still fits. The other thing I was going to say is much of the debate about that neighborhood center was on the half-mile issue, what you're saying Keith. I think the intent at least that we've heard the most of, was from all the public testimony has been that -- I think the market place is the same like you're saying. They're not totally sold on it either. It is somewhat cutting edge for this area but it's not necessarily cutting edge for the world. I mean this is stuff that's being done other places. It's just an attempt to try to bring something else to the community... I guess my perspective is what the P&Z recommendation was. We're willing to try to see if that's something that will happen. We may go a year and not get one single person to want to develop that. We may have to reevaluate that through the planning staff and say this just isn't working. We are turning down application after application because no one wants to build that. It just doesn't seem to be a viable thing. Maybe we need to remove it from this north quarter or maybe we need to make it more in this area and change some of the incentives or something because we're not seeing the market develop that way. That might be the way to deal with that rather than just remove them. I like the suggested changes that we've kind of come up with on all of these different maps. The different colors but in creating the size difference is what I think is a real positive you know the trying to meet the -- I think what was really excellent and done by both Brad and Steve is trying to make these current suggestions fit with what we've already approved anyway. We're not going -- It's not going to make much sense to have a neighborhood center right next Bridgetower when we've already approved that. It's not likely to happen. I think there are some good things. I guess, the answer to the question kind of sort of philosophically, I think it's generally fine. I do (inaudible) I've always had a concern about mixing and matching too many of the little pieces. We've had dozens of people come about their property. I've always been afraid that we've seen it happen over and over where we change party A party A's neighbor comes and wants theirs changed now to. At the Planning and Zoning level, what the discussion was about was saying you know we don't want to do that too much. If it's a big piece, if it's a big piece like the Montvue Subdivision or like the corner here at Ten Mile and Ustick. Lets look at those things but for an individual piece of property somebody's single house and let's deal with that at the annexation stage. When they want to be annexed and when they want to be zoned. When they have a project that they're actually bringing forward rather than the speculation that someone's thinking I Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 8 want only my house, to be the only one here that's low density in that one spot. No one else's will be. I have a real concern with that because I just think we're inviting every other neighbor to come in to do that to come in. Lets readdress this (inaudible) never get this map done. It will be a patchwork quilt that will be more colors than we've got so far. I guess to sum up, philosophically I think the ideas are real good. I think that we probably need to look at some of the sections and see if those things fit. Do these things fit? Does that make sense? (Inaudible). Bird: I can agree with this one and I'm like you, Bill. Lets give these a try and if the developers don't we can always move and do it. I mean we need to look at the market and our applications and then what our map, or Comprehensive Plan is saying more than every 10 years. We need to update it. It's like everything else. You know you get caught up and you don't think you have time. In the same token everybody is spending a little time updating it every other year, every year, whenever you think the market is demanding it. It saves you time at the long run because you don't have a bunch of CUPs coming before you every night. This one I could -- I don't have any problem trying them. I just don't know if they're successful and I've never seen any around here. I know Larry sent that one 'from Texas but Texas isn't Meridian, Idaho. Siddoway: You're actually about to see the first one. Even though this isn't adopted, yet we have Heritage Common (inaudible) first hearing tomorrow night at P&Z. He is doing a neighborhood center concept. This one right here. Nary: Mr. Mayor to follow up. You certainly can set a schedule with the planning staff but you know we can have an update in a year. How are we doing? How is this process working? Then maybe even set a timetable of 18 months or two years of saying we're actually going to revisit it. (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: There are a lot of things built into the action item. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: I agree. De Weerd: The commitment comes from - Nary: Right.. Exactly. Bird: We know. Nary: That way it's something that really is focused. That way if there is a problem or an issue that a developer has there's also a target for them to look at and say we will revisit these things. We'll revisit them even sooner if it's a necessity but you know we Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 9 have a timetable to do this. That way we're really not just going to set it on the shelf for nine years and come back. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. I guess (inaudible). I would like to refocus a little bit. We need to have a discussion on densities and target densities for what kind of targets we're looking at. I know in the information that we got from the school district they had different scenarios on if we had a 3,3.5 or four you know what that meant. We do need to have that conversation. We also have to kind of look at this in terms of mass transportation. We saw some recommended or some scenarios of road layouts with our arterials, in particular the north Meridian area. That should also kind of -- even though we are going to have a different plan but they're excellent precursors to that plan to start even thinking about them now and looking at how we have those densities on this land use map. If we can maybe open up some discussion on that. If the timing is, appropriate. One other thing. I think I heard the Mayor mention to the staff before we started that I've also had some concern of is the way we have things right now we're not really encouraging much of an employment center in the north part of our community. Bird: You're right. De Weerd: That probably should also be something that we discuss. Siddoway: I had one other comment. First on the employment center. We did talk about that in the text and whether we wanted to just have it mentioned in the text or reflected on the map. I thought it was decided last week that it would just be mentioned in the text. I can change that but I would also point out that we also did make one of the neighborhood centers up here in this quadrant regional anticipating that it would be a larger employment shopping area when it builds out. We have some of that but we may not have as much as you want. The other thing, as we switch gears from talking about the general concept, the density as Tammy suggested or whatever and shift into requested changes. I believe most of the people behind me are here to talk about the area around the Wastewater Treatment Plant. You may want to take that on early. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Then shift up so they don't wait all night to hear that. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: That's fine. Let's back up and get it taken care of. Hawkins-Clark: I could just summarize if you would like. We are just (inaudible) ourselves correct as far as the -- I think there are three things before us on particular section 34, which is the one we're sitting at, at the very present moment. There are three. One was to either leave it like it already is. in the 1993 Comp Plan which is rural AG and residential. Just leave it like that which we have to maybe create a new category. One of the immediate action items would be as soon as this is adopted we Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 1 0 would go to work on putting together a charette, if you will meeting between like some architects, planners, any property owners up here that are interested. We would go for a little bit more, almost a specific area overlay if you will of this whole section. That was one suggestion that we made early on. We could just almost not even touch it on this map. Just leave it alone and we could do some specific work and shoot for a goal of four months or something after adoption to come back and essentially work that into North Meridian area planning. I think that's one option we threw out. The other option is, is as is shown on this, March 13th map was to change it to a mixed-use designation. In terms of this specific corner, the Utility Subdivision we also had a callout, all of the blue that is around the Wastewater Treatment Plant is to reconsider buffer uses surrounding the Wastewater Treatment Plant. You see that. That obviously would need some discussion that could happen during kind of the charette. We didn't have any specific recommendations right now. I think we heard Gary Smith say last time there's concern that residential is not appropriate. The charette idea go with this or of course just leave it entirely as the Planning and Zoning Commission recommended approval. I mean we did receive quite a bit of input and testimony since the Planning and Zoning Commission recommended approval. I think those are really the three types of approaches that we could take for this specific area. Bird: Let me. '(Inaudible) but Bill sat through the Planning and Zoning and you guys have sat through all of them. On this corner excluding Utility subdivision, how much other testimony did you have on that ground around that, that's in the colored now? Hawkins-Clark: Councilman Bird do you mean at the P&Z Commission hearings? Bird: Other than Utility Subdivision. Hawkins-Clark: Other than Utility? Bird: Yes. Siddoway: I don't even think Utility Subdivision was at P&Z Commission hearings yet. It got very little if any. Nary: There were some but again some of the folks on the areas, I guess on the west side of the plant or the northwest side of the plant was always concerned about that industrial designation and such. Because they sort of paralleled each other because one was under the old plan and we were looking at the new plan, it sort of fall together. I don't know that there was a tremendous amount of discussion at least (inaudible). I think there's always been a concern just because I think the number one thing, the flaw from Planning and Zoning recommendation is the concept of industrial even in this particular sector was only really thought of as what we would determine light industrial. Not heavy manufacturing, not heavy machinery, that type of thing. Our zoning designations don't have such a designation. Although that was the intent, we didn't have really the supporting, you know we didn't have the supporting language in there to really make that clear that we weren't really wanting to have a big industrial park there Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 11 adjacent to all of these homes. All we were talking about was conceptually we considered light. I think looking at something alternatively as being discussed like mixed-uses and things like that makes some sense. Because that's really, what I think, from the discussion that's what we were talking about. Then it still goes down to the CU and some of the issues what's compatible, what can work there. What doesn't work there? What's the buffer? What's the distance between one use and another? Those types of standard CU types of things. With just the mixed-use designation seems to make a little more sense in that area now because we do have so much residential there. I think, you know I guess I have a suggestion here in the purple that reconsider buffer uses doesn't tell me exactly what the map is going to say but it does make sense. Realistically that's what we have to do. I think we've all seen this plan as the world comes closer we really need to figure out what do we do here so that we aren't revisiting the Utility Subdivision sort of an issue over and over and over as other uses want to be here and other types of encroachments occur. We do need to evaluate what does the buffer need to be. What kind of buffer does it need to be? I think that makes sense. Siddoway: From staff, my perspective, I would just echo that. I hope that we can get some discussion amongst the Council Members about what the buffer should be, The cold hard reCllity of existing conditions is that this is a wastewater treatment plant. The question is whaf belongs beside it? The fact that we have houses an eighth of a mile away, you know what goes between the two? I tend to agree with Gary as the Wastewater Treatment Plant. You really don't want to be stacking additional housing closer and closer right up to the front door. So, what should go there? This is the question. Hawkins-Clark: I think we've also had discussion, and I believe actually testimony was given to buffer industrial with industrial. That doesn't make much sense. In a way it's kind of revealing itself. If you're not having residential immediately adjacent then you're going to have industrial right on the perimeter so that, you know across Ten Mile and across Ustick you have industrial. You're really getting down to the point of the commercial type stuff, office, and possibly some (inaudible) and light industrial. Whether the approach comes to deal specifically with the corner since we have an active application, I don't know that we have any pressure from the applicant property owners for any other immediate development. At least our department has not heard anything, . Siddoway: The only specific requests that we've had are those that are residential wanting to re"main so. Some of them have new houses on them. Those are the ones that show up in green. Hawkins-Clark: There may be some time other than the corner to really think more creatively around the other areas. Nary: I think if we don't at least address that as fairly soon, we'll have the same discussion regarding the western boundary of this land. We're going to be at it again Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 12 anyway. One of the comments that said earlier, I guess one potential we can do is leave it as the 93 plan has it, which is rural residential (inaudible) park designation as a potential spot. I guess the only heartburn I have with that is I've said before I don't really have a problem if that's a park. Why someone decided at some point in the past that that wouldn't be a good location to have a park on the corner doesn't make any sense. I think it would have been. If we're going to leave it at that, then I think we would have to have at least some idea. The only way it's going to be a park is if the city buys it. They aren't going to make it a private park and give it to us. Unless the city is really honestly, going to do that and it wasn't in the parks Comprehensive Plan even though Mr. Kuntz did say at one of our Public Hearings (inaudible) a park come and talk to me and we'll make it a park. It doesn't make sense to me to leave it like that. I don't think it's fair to anybody. I think it's actually avoiding the issue to do that. I think we just need to figure out exactly what's appropriate there unless the city really wants to step up and say we're going to work toward buying that as a park, which I didn't see anybody jumping at that from the parks level. Bird: I don't think that's a very fair assumption because the simple fact is you know when they had a chance rn 93, in 92 or 93, they did have that designated as maybe a future maybe park. When you get -- you know that had an offer to buy 56 acres two miles down tbe road at a very, very good price and make a nice regional park. I'm glad the Maybrand Council are doing that. We put Tully Park in. basically within a mile you've got 73 acres of parkland where if you go south you've got 17 for the whole southern area. I for one would not, at this point maybe 30 years from now see it be developed as a park. I don't see it being developed now. This area is getting -- we've got to look around the whole City for it, for the park and areas. I'm like you Bill. I think lets hit it head on and figure out what we're going to do because if we don't every six months you'll be back having battles saying what are we going to do here? (Inaudible) in Utility Park it will be the park west of here, or the development west of here, the development right north of here. Let's get it done. I don't know how you buffer. I think office makes a nice buffer between residential and industrial. You know most office buildings are pretty nice buildings and they're used from eight to five, five days a week. Siddoway: We were - oh go ahead. De Weerd: I guess, the first -- if we do something like that we need to get definitions put in place first off. I guess what I'm hearing is we have two viable options here. One would be create a mixed-use category there. I don't know which of the three you're kind of looking at. Or the other one is keep it RUT as it is in the current plan and. maybe pursue the charette that Brad is talking about to incorporate into the Meridian northern plan. Are those the two options then? Siddoway: J have another one. We were batting some of this last week and one idea -- ail of these mixed-use classifications encourage residential in different densities. It wouldn't be just simply taking one of these and plopping it on. Something along the lines of uses that are approved in CN, which is neighborhood commercial, which allows for small commercial. It allows for professional office and then adding on the light Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 13 industrial flex space, office warehouse type uses which aren't mentioned in that zone. The goal being to get a mixture of office truly light industrial in terms of office, warehouse type uses, and small scale commercial. That would be one option as a buffer. Bird: What do you consider small scale commercial? Siddoway: I don't remember the -- there's a definition in there. Bird: Yes, that's what I'm asking, what is it? Siddoway: May I see your ordinance book? Bird: You're certainly not looking at any retail or anything like that are you in the commercial? Siddoway: It could allow retail. Bird: That's what I'm bringing out. Siddoway: Yes. . We've got to get you a 99 one Keith. Bird: That's how far behind I am. De Weerd: I don't think I ever (inaudible). Bird: That's the one we're supposed to be working on. I have (inaudible). Siddoway: I don't think this has changed. (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: I don't. Okay. It must be in the 93 Comprehensive Plan. Do you have a copy of that? The zoning ordinance mentions an acreag~ but not a- Bird: -- not a- Siddoway: (Inaudible). Nary: You guys make fun of me bringing the box, bringing the stuff. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: 30 to 100,000 square feet. (Inaudible). Bird: 30? Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 14 Hawkins-Clark: 30. Neighborhood convenience shopping center and general (inaudible ). Siddoway: We can define it however we wanted. That would be a bit big. Bird: I was going to say you're talking about some neighborhood centers right there. Siddoway: If you don't see retail -- I mean I was just throwing out uses. Hawkins-Clark: We're changing that category by virtue of process we're in because this is coming out of the 93 plan. Yes. To me one of the biggest concerns is that I think most people are agreeing that we're going to see the commercial closer to Chinden than we are two miles south of Chinden. ***End Of Side One*** Hawkins-Clark: -- the market comes to the commercial areas that are here first. That is ultimately going to water down if you will the ability for a larger commercial area two miles north of here to thrive. I think you could see some of the smaller stuff and see it happen okay. Some of this gets back to our density discussion. We haven't really had that discussion with staff but I can't see -- I don't see much more than 30,000 square foot of retail really down around in this area where particularly the employment center, we envisioned closer to Chinden where you have better access for transit. You have an easier access from the west as well as from the east. When we get to that discussion about designating more of the employment centers (inaudible) too much commercial down in this area is going to have a negative impact on that. Bird: Brad, the only thing I can see though is you know we've got Bridgetower going in over there -- we've got a lot of residential and already got a lot of residential being built, or built and lived in on Cherry Lane. I could see a small retail outlet in here. Something like Ten Mile Cherry Lane Albertson's and Papa Murphy's, something like that. I could see something like that in here. Around the sewer plant that might be a good idea. You always, like Gary said, there's always, regardless of how good we are there's always an odor at night out of here. De Weerd: I'm not going to sell food (inaudible) Nary: I was going to say I don't know that you're going to get anybody that wants to sell food. Bird: Well, I didn't say food. Nary: No matter what kind of food -- even Maverick sells food. To me I guess the only thing I really see is some type of office type of thing or -- do we have a storage unit zone? Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 15 Bird: Yes, we've got one right over there. Never had a complaint once. Nary: The problem is -- I don't know west of here in Nampa, Caldwell, and those places. In Boise, the west Boise Treatment Plant is in the middle of nothing, farmland. A few houses, nothing else. So we don't have a -- and bus depot, or bus barn. There are not a whole lot of examples for us to use to say what are the best buffer types of things to have there. The Lander Street plant has houses. They have tons and tons of complaints from the houses regarding odor, noise, and traffic. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: Lander Street. Those houses have dealt with a lot of issues having a treatment plant in their neighborhood. The park is the adjacent buffer there too, the greenbelt. It hasn't been a big problem. Willow Lane is adjacent to, is immediately west of the Lander Street plant. That has not been a problem they have a sports field and they have a park and those typ~s of things. I don't know what Nampa or Caldwell has- Hawkins-Clark: Nampa's is right north of Fred Meyer, if you know where Fred Meyer is in Nampa on th'e ...:.. Nary: -.. by the railroad tracks? Hawkins-Clark: By the railroad tracks and it's surrounded by commercial and industrial. Bird: The golf course and (inaudible) on the west side of it. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: So, they actually have an industrial buffer too? Hawkins-Clark: Yes. Bird: They do have -- yes, the golf course shreds it from the - (inaudible). Nary: I mean, I've been to that Fred Meyer. I didn't know (inaudible). Bird: It's definitely a problem that I think we need to not put off. That we need to hit it-- get some kind of designation on it. I'm like you. If we want to leave it RUT like it is (inaudible). All we're doing is delaying. The next application that comes in you're going to have the same battle. Nary: In trying to be fair to the property owner that owns that, you know the developer (inaudible). At least the testimony that we've had in the past was we tried to bring different projects forward of different types of uses for this property and it's been rejected. We need to figure out what the appropriate use is. I guess I think I'm the Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 16 same as everybody I don't know. Honestly, open space is probably the most appropriate use for that property but it doesn't belong to the city. If it belonged to the city, I think we would leave it as open space. Siddoway: Are you talking about just the corner or the whole -- Nary: Well, not the whole piece but I mean at least the part that's immediately around this plant. I think at least portions of the area. I think honestly the best buffer to a Treatment Plant is open space. I don't think there's really -- we can mix and match all the pieces of the puzzle we want but realistically that's the best one. Is that a feasible, viable to leave it as an open space? Probably not. Is that very reasonable to the property owners that own those pieces of property that they don't have anything that they can develop and use their property for without bringing it forward and dealing with that? I don't know. I don't think realistically that any of these ones on this list that we have any of them really are really appropriate. It really is - (I naudible discussion amo~gst Council) Nary: -- yes. This just happens to be -- this is a unique place. When this plant was put out here, there wasn't anything out here. This was all open space. It was all farmland. It was a good place to do that but I still think that the only thing really that can go around a plant like this unless someone wants to do something else with it is open space. Then if somebody else wants it for something then we need to figure out how much -- how do we buffer those other things? If you went the other way -- if we weren't dealing with the plant, would we really think an industrial use right across the street from homes would be appropriate? Probably not. De Weerd: That's the problem. Right now, we don't have a designation there really, that's ideal for this area. That's why I like the charette idea. Leave it like it is with the RUT and (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: Are you referring also to the 35-acre Utility Subdivision or -- go ahead and decide on that and leave the - Bird: (Inaudible) applications. Hawkins-Clark: You're referring to all of it. Like I said before I don't thinkwe have any pressure on the rest of it. If we want to move that ahead, do it as an action item, we could do that. It would still beg the question of the foreign piece. It is on tomorrow night's thing (inaudible), De Weerd: That will be answered through (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: Do bear in mind that the Idaho Power substation is not open space. Nary: Sure. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 17 Hawkins-Clark: That's coming so certainly some industrial adjacent to that to the west is probably appropriate. Then it becomes the issue of how far away from existing residential does it need to be in order to mitigate noise, fumes, and things like that? (I naudible) some examples of using some offices that are at least four or 500 feet of a you know (inaudible) buffer and you have some height and you have some space and you have some other more intensive uses behind it that the plant has. McCandless: Where in the mixed-use category would you place something like say a small golf shop, a shop, and a driving range? Could something like that be fit into there if somebody wanted to put one up? Hawkins-Clark: It could be fit into the mixed-use. Yes. Siddoway: I think in the Zoning Ordinance calls for outdoor recreation. (Inaudible) outdoor entertainment centers. It would be hard to zone it for one use though. McCandless: Well yes but- Siddoway: That would be a good one. McCandless: They've got one of those down on Overland in Boise. (Inaudible). It's always full. Nary: We use to have one though on Overland. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: So, the recommendation is (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: Ours is that there's the mixed-use, which would allow for what the current proposal in the corner. Then keep the rest of it (inaudible). Nary: Is that the green here on this corner? Siddoway: So, you would make the corner piece mixed-use and the remainder would be, area around it rural residential slash agriculture (inaudible) the current Comp, Plan? De Weerd: Which mixed-use (inaudible) or the MUN? It's encouraged to be residential where appropriate but they don't have to right? Siddoway: No, it's not required. (Inaudible). De Weerd: But that's not really a (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: The MURG would probably be the-- Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 18 Corrie: In all three of those areas? The RG has all three of them. NNC Hawkins-Clark: The other option as Steve mentioned would be a fourth category given the uniqueness of the site. We can certainly very easily come with some basic criteria that would be a fourth mixed-use category. Siddoway: Call it MU-WWTP. De Weerd: That's probably more appropriate. You know that RG one is can have again (inaudible) issues of our lack of definition. Siddoway: Right. It really is unique so we probably should (inaudible). Corrie: Personally I think you should take care of that (inaudible) rather than later. (Inaudible) you're still working with a mixed-use. You can do a lot of things there but still (inaudible). Are you gC?ing to delay it from the Council? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We'reworking on stuff now that other Councils delayed to us. Corrie: Yes. I think that staff's comment (inaudible) Bird: (Inaudible). I would also agree with you Mayor that we need to hit it right on the head right now. De Weerd: Can we have a fourth designation in that? Nary: For that square? For the whole section 34? Siddoway: I can almost give it to you right now. It would have a special designation just for an MU for the Wastewater Treatment Plant. It would have no residential and it would have uses that included professional office, office warehouse, flex space. Maybe the better definition of that would be (inaudible). It's like what you see in Meridian Business Park, King Street where they've got the roll up doors. They do some warehousing, storage of small office. Its kind of office, warehouse flex space, is what they call it. That would be a good buffer. Then maybe the potential of some small commercial if you think that's appropriate. We can set a size. If you don't think retail has a place, we'll just leave it out. Certainly, the office and the office warehouse kind of uses make sense. Corrie: I don't think they're going to come beating down our door for retail. Bird: I don't think you've got enough frontages for retail. i Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 19 Corrie: I wouldn't put my money there. Office, yes. Siddoway: Flex space certainly. I could see that. Bird: Yes I can, I can definitely see that. Siddoway: You know like you said a mini storage, That type of - not that we need that we've got so many it seems. That would be what I would come back with. Bird: That's in the purple area that is shown now. What about the (inaudible)? Nary: So, you're not talking the whole 34? Just the purple area that -- the area that's on the Planning and Zoning recommendation map as gray industrial around the green which is the (inaudible)? Siddoway: And the green corner. Hawkins-Clark: It could be the green corner too. Sure. Nary: That still wbuld allow the discussion at least of what's being proposed as well as other alternatives. I mean we wouldn't be here arguing over the -- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: But, you if you were saying no residential and this green part right here says low- density residential. This green up here. Hawkins-Clark: Right. Nary: So, we wouldn't be talking about that part we're just talking about the purple part? Hawkins-Clark: Our feeling was that, that green part, given the existing houses that for the most part probably a developer is going to come in and hold those. We haven't heard that they're planning to move. We are otherwise :--. we would honor the existing use. Nary: Okay. Siddoway: That low should probably say very low, actually. Nary: It does say very low. Siddoway: One does. One doesn't. That one does. The other one doesn't. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 20 Bird: Basically they're grandfathered anyway if they're existing houses. Until they want to annex and zone. If they're going to do that, they're probably not going to stay in their house. Hawkins-Clark: This one means that even if they did want to annex they're not going to get anymore than one house per acre. Bird: Yes. Okay I see. Hawkins-Clark: It's going to stay - Corrie: Just where it is. Hawkins-Clark: Yes. Bird: What about - you went across to the east side of Ten Mile with your purple on this revised map which it don't show on the Planning and Zoning map as gray. Do you want the same classification"for 'that? Do you want to keep that as the -- Siddoway: Are you talking about the blue are the other side of Ten Mile? Bird: Yes. I call it purple is it blue? Siddoway: That one is purple. That one has a separate call out. It says change low density residential to medium density residential. We're suggesting that area be medium density residential. Bird: Okay. Siddoway: It's separate from the other. Bird: The other across the street. Corrie: Yes. De Weerd: And why? Siddoway: And why? Hartford Subdivision is already approved for one. They're on the corner. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Yes. Then we just have the area between Hartford and Bridgetower zoned for similar residential use. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 21 Bird: -- with the reclassification (inaudible) shown on the purple area of Planning and Zoning with the reclassification (inaudible)? Siddoway: Yes. Anything you guys say you want changed, we can change it and show it. Bird: I would like to see it changed if that's what the Council feels before our next Public Hearing so that people can see and can put their input into us. Corrie: Because we're going to get some input. Bird: And we should. (Inaudible). Nary: If we're going to have some value to the next Public Hearing, I think if there are changes that we're going to be suggesting that we want input on if we don't do it before that hearing, we'll have to have another hearing anyway. Bird: Yes. That's what I'ni getting at right now. Get these changes out- Siddoway: The next hearing is -- is it in one week or two? De Weerd: Two. Bird: Two weeks. Siddoway: As we go through this map, I can make -- if you want to recommend tonight any changes to this map I can make those changes before the next hearing so you can see what it looks like. Bird: Yes so that you can have it on display there. Even if we could get it out a week ahead of time so that we could get it out and let the public take a look. Then they don't come up and get blind-sided. Nary: One of the concerns I have, and I understood what you said Brad with that little green area with the houses are already existing. Like you said, at least at this juncture they haven't indicated they want to change. It seems like we've had lots of testimony for people saying when I want my area zoned in this manner now so that way I have the future potential to deal with changes. Do we realistically think long term for that piece that it's going "to remain residential? Because if it isn't - Hawkins-Clark: Which one? Nary: The green piece here. The one that says -- right next to this buffer. Yes. Change industrial to very low density residential. The reasoning was is because that is low density residential now. Now, I know we've heard a lot of people and I'm not saying that, that's the reason to change to it. We have heard lots of folks say I would rather Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 22 have my house -- it's residential now because I'm living in it but if I annex it, I would rather it be mixed-use, commercial, whatever. That way when I sell it, I have a better -- because if someone else wants to buy it, they have to buy it as residential. Then come and ask to have it annexed and rezoned, which may require changes in the land use map which may not be able to be done because we may be in between the six month time period to do that. If we don't -- although we're attempting to honor what's currently there because they haven't asked for it to be different. Siddoway: They asked for it to be changed to residential. That was green because it was initiated by the citizens. Nary: Oh, I see because I was thinking long term is that realistically going to remain residential? Okay. If that's what they wanted I guess we can leave it. It seems like we've heard so much of that. I don't know whether that's something to discuss or to just leave it because they asked for it. De Weerd: Well, the rest ,?f -- that's because they split their piece of property. Nary: Right. De Weerd: They have one of those residential and the other one is (inaudible). Bird: He's talking about up top. Hawkins-Clark: He's talking about - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Get on this map here Tammy. De Weerd: Oh, this green piece here or that one? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: Yes. Not the small one down here but this one over here. De Weerd: Didn't we get testimony from the people in that area (inaudible)? Siddoway: That's what we just said. Nary: He said that, that's what they had requested and I guess I missed that. That's why it was green. My thought was is that we're realistically not thinking that that corridor is really going to remain residential long term then what's the point of leaving it residential now? It's not going to change some body's house because we make that a mixed-use designation today on this map. It doesn't mean they have to move. It just Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 23 means that they have the potential in the future. If that's what they wanted then that's something, they can live with. I guess that's fine. De Weerd: I guess what would concern me is the rural residential in there. I know that we deal with that in Old Town on Broadway. If someone wants to sell their house because now it's designated as industrial and they have a heck of a time with the banks and- Siddoway: The main difference is that Broadway is zoned industrial. This would just be in the Comp Plan industrial. It would become the same issue if their septic failed and then they annexed it as a residence and had to annex it as industrial or something. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Then tried to sell the house. Okay, under that scenario you run into the same problem you have on Broadway. Bird: You're right. Siddoway: Ifit'stayed county property it wouldn't matter if this were shown as industrial or anything else: It would still be a residence and still be fine. The problem comes when they annex when the septic fails and they decide to annex. Nary: If they still want it to be a house. Siddoway: If they still want it to be a house. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: -- commercial, or office or whatever at the time that they annex that's not a problem. That's no big deal. It's just if they want it to remain a house. If that's what those folks asked for I guess it's fine. Bird: If that's what- De Weerd: This can be revisited you know months down the road when (inaudible). Bird: Yes but what if they're between the -- Siddoway: How about this? What if we made it mixed-use and we can just put in there in the description, it does make accommodations for the existing residences to remain as such until they're ready to turn over but we're not encouraging additional residential? That way if someone did want to convert it, the comp plan wouldn't be in the way. De Weerd: That sounds (inaudible). Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 24 (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Sweeten it up a little. De Weerd: That sounds like a viable solution. Bird: I agree with you. De Weerd: Go with it. Siddoway: Go with it? Bird: Evidently, probably the people that live there, they're in some nice homes up here that I'm sure people plan on staying there. Nary: Another suggestion I'm thinking just because it's already 7:00 and I don't know how far we've really actually gotten. It seems like because we listened to a lot of testimony adverse testimony that the ones that have been requested by the citizens and as are agreed upon by our staff. The other areas of the green on this map seem fine. I guess I don'tknoW that I want to argue about it. If the citizen asked for it, if the staff thinks it's compliant with the other philosophy and suggestions that we had I mean we can certainly look at them. I guess I don't want to spend a whole lot of energy on those since we've got a whole lot of red ones on here that the citizens requested and the staff disagreed and the purple is just staff initiated. I don't know whether that's a -- citizens have given some input, some not. I guess those are the ones to me that we need to spend some energy on. That's probably the ones we need to do. With that said, we can look at it quickly on the green ones. If the citizen wanted it that way and the staff thinks it fits in with everything else that we're trying to accomplish here I don't care. Bird: (Inaudible) the red ones we probably need to discuss and get it done with. Nary: Sure. Bird: Because that is something that citizens, developers, or somebody has come forward with and staff disagrees. Let's find out why they disagree and ge~ it done. Nary: Yes, all the green ones, I don't know that I want to substitute my judgement for everybody else's. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: While we're considering then the red, I still think we need to determine our higher density areas. It makes it easier to go and figure out the red areas, (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 25 Nary: So, what's your specific concern Tammy? Bird: Yes. Where do you think we need to add density and take it out? De Weerd: Well, if you'll look at this you have your lighter green is your low density, which is under R-4. Hawkins-Clark: Right. De Weerd: So, R-2 to (inaudible). Then the -- I don't know what color that is. Corrie: Medium density is sort of a yellowish orange (inaudible). De Weerd: Yes. That's a four. You really don't have really any designated areas that are high density residential. Hawkins-Clark: With the exception of- De Weerd: Except what you have in your neighborhood centers. Hawkins-Clark: Exactly. De Weerd: Or if they do a PUD. Hawkins-Clark: Correct. Corrie: Which takes into (inaudible) as well. (Inaudible). Overall Brad it comes out to about an R-4 (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: The whole north area? Bird: Of the Comp Plan. De Weerd: The whole City (inaudible). (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: We have not made that calculation. The existing, I believe is around 3.2, the existing city limits. We have not gone through in fact in the land area. We do know that, of the neighborhood centers that are shown on here are about 1.8 percent of the total land in our area of impact, which is 44 and a half square miles. Neighborhood centers are 1.8 percent of that in terms of land. Of course, not all that's going to be high density. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17. 2002 Page 26 Bird: No. Hawkins-Clark: But you do have a minimum. If the goal is to get the density focused in those areas then -- as you say the planned developments can jack it up. The main difference between this one and the north meridian area plan is about one dwelling unit, or is it about one and a half dwelling units per acre I think. Theirs is higher. Bird: They've got a higher density? Hawkins-Clark: Yes. Actually, if you don't mind I kind of was wondering from Gary because I know the sewer model is based on three and a half, correct? Is that right, on three and a half dwelling units per acre? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: The sewer model? (I naudible discussion from' staff) De Weerd: So, 'right now we're at 3.2 in our Comp Plan. What are we in reality? Bird: In what? McCandless: In what? De Weerd: Because I keep reading that we're not even reaching our density goals in the Comp Plan. What are we averaging right now city wide in annexed property? Bird: 3.2. Hawkins-Clark: I think it's about 3.2. Bird: In our existing city limits? De Weerd: Okay, what is in our Comp Plan right now (inaudible)? Hawkins-Clark: Well it's -- Siddoway: Three. Hawkins-Clark: -- yes. Siddoway: It's in this statement but we don't feel like we're missing our goal at all in terms of density. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 27 Hawkins-Clark: The Comp Plan does say three but it's in a spot that it's talking about the rural areas. You know it doesn't really give a goal for the City per say. If you want to get technical about it but three is the number (inaudible). De Weerd: So, do we want to keep it (inaudible) target maintain a three and the model allows for a little bit more, but still target for three? Smith: I thought that the school district had been 2.8. (Inaudible) Bird: That's 2.8 people per house. Hawkins-Clark: Yes. Bird: We're talking about houses per acre Gary. Smith: Oh, I'm sorry. Bird: I can believe the Ulree, three two you know because for 10 years you've had nothing but R-4 in Meridian. It's just been the last couple years that we've had some density come in besides an R-4. De Weerd: Before that it was R-8. Bird: Yes well R-8 but (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: It's a little misleading because most of the R-8's are actually end up being around a three and a half to four actually. Bird: Yes it is. Hawkins-Clark: A lot of our fours are lower than three but some of them are two. Yes. Bird: I think the density is a -- I'm like Tammy. I think it is a question that needs to be planned for. I also am one that believes the market will determine the density. I think we've got to be careful around the edges of our impact to make sure that we buffer in our edges to meet what we are joining up against. Whether it's Boise, Eagle, or whoever. We need to -- we don't want to go in and throw an R-16 in where they've got R-2. That isn't fair to the existing owners and we've got the chance to do that right now because we're doing our deal. There's also market for apartments and stuff like that. The market, you're right you know they determine how many apartments you put up and stuff. You know Boise put up a lot of apartments real fast there and couldn't find an apartment. Then all of a sudden they had overbuilt the apartments. Now they're starting to build apartments again. I don't want to see us just be a R-4 or R-3 or an R-2 or R-8 but I think you need a good mix. The thing I just want to caution is around the outskirts we need to make sure we buffer in with our neighbors. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 28 Siddoway: Can I make a couple of comments about density? Your comment about making a mix of densities, we have some feedback input early on in this process that we wanted a mix of densities. We're tired of just the same old same old. We want good higher density stuff and we also want some large lot stuff. We don't just want it this corner all this, this corner all that, this corner all the other. We want it integrated. We started out -- if you just take maybe this square mile right here and look at it as an example. We tried to transition densities within each square mile. We took the area where we thought the neighborhood center belonged with its higher densities, transitioned to medium density, and transitioned to low density. De Weerd: Is that low density or very low? Siddoway: This one is very low but low, or very low to a low density. We tried to do basically a quarter of this section in low. The remaining three quarters of this section in medium -- I guess that's about an eighth maybe of sections of those three quarters in the higher density category. Then we took that as the basic model and then looked at our photos, existing build out patterns. You don't see this little diagrammatic version showing up everywhere because we transferred, when we came to this section. We looked okay there's an existing low density residential already over here to try and make this just go here doesn't work. It switches around a little bit. The same here and the same here and here. There's existing -- we tried to respond to existing conditions for built low-density rural subdivisions in deciding where that category should go. Then transitioned to medium and higher densities where appropriate. In general, I like that. The one problem, potential problem I can see is if this person here wants to go medium density residential but we're telling him he can only go low. If this person here wants to go low and we're telling him, he has to be medium. I don't know how much flex should be in those densities. It's already come up once on this corner. We've had pre- application meetings (inaudible) but they want to do medium density and not low. It is potentially going to come up. Although- Corrie: You said (inaudible) wanting to sell. Your medium density homes are going to sell quicker by a developer than the low-density larger homes. Is this driven by market or is this driven by developers wanting more, less? Siddoway: It's a combination I think. Developers of course are only going to build what they think is going to sell. At the same, time some developers just because of what they do like the more standard more or others like the larger lot subdivisions or whatever. It kind of depends on who the developer is. It also depends on the market Nary: Mr. Mayor. Steve isn't that similar to the issue we were just talking about with this little green block around the treatment plant? Here's what we're designating as residential. Here's them wanting to sell it or over here now wanting to be annexed. We marked it on the map as one thing and now they would like to be something else and the plans in the way again. It's not anything really adverse. I mean you know this is not an exact science. I mean, just because the green is in the top corner of the square and the yellow is in the bottom corner of the square, it's not an exact science necessarily. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 29 Some of it's based on existing land use. Some of it's based on the desired future land use and I guess that's kind of where we seem to (inaudible). I don't know about this particular area you're talking about but I'm going to guess that some of these times we probably don't have a tremendously compelling reason that, that one needs to be medium and this one needs to be low. It just was based on - (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: -- already there. I guess we just need to find like we talked about with this other piece around this plant. Lets find a way that we have that flexibility so that we don't necessarily have the plan get in the way but not just in being mish mash that doesn't make any sense three years from now. De Weerd: If you have a target density, you can build in some flexibility. If you can talk about the characteristics, the pattern of the development around there so that you can also (inaudible). We'll be staying on target with (inaudible) what we thought. If they went for the higher densities, so they could have the different setbacks. You know this one will still keep our targeted density even though it's calling for low and it's medium. You would have some flexibility to look at a square mile picture and try to see what the adjacent use$ or proposals are that are going around it. One thing we do want to avoid is exceeding the densities that our services are planned to serve. I guess that would be (inaudible) Corrie: -- looking over (inaudible). You were looking at those on the plant and whenever we come into that (inaudible). Bird: Mr. Mayor, Corrie: Yes Mr. Bird. Bird: Gary I believe our trunkline, as far as our trunklines we could handle an average of a - what do you want to call it medium density or high density. Our trunkline will handle it. The plant here is the one we've got to keep up to handle the higher density. Am I not right on that? Smith: Well, the trunklines are designed for the (inaudible). Corrie: Gary, may I ask a question? Are you going to -- is that Wastewater Treatment Plant that's here, is it going to be all of this area or are you going to think about another wastewater treatment plant? Smith: (Inaudible) we'll build out this existing (inaudible). Corrie: Okay. Smith: (inaudible) size and then we've got some additional acreage (inaudible). Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 30 De Weerd: So, you could serve a full city at build out in this one area? Okay, so we're just going to operate on the same densities that were currently part of the (inaudible)? Bird: I think- Siddoway: I think (inaudible) higher. Bird: I think Steve's 100 percent right. I think you're going to see higher requested in the three point. Siddoway: Mike Worley just kind of blasted it as a low-density plan. I've done some calculations and I can bring them to the next meeting. I'm sitting here trying to remember off the top of my head. Some density calculations per square mile for this plan. They're quite a bit higher than Wardle's calculations for this plan. If I remember right, it was something like 5,500 people per square mile, households (inaudible). Bird: 5,500 people per square mile and what are you basing it on 2.8? Siddoway: Yes well I took a quarter section at three dwelling units per acre, an eighth of a section at eight dwelling units per acre. First of all, I took the existing square mileage range. I subtracted out acreage for schools, parks - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: -- for roads and for open space. That I had what I thought was just the residential acreage of each square mile. Then I subdivided that into the three density categories and made a calculation. I have the number but I just can't remember it. Bird: Did you come up with about 5,500 people? Siddoway: That's what I think. I need to check that before I say that's - Bird: I think - yes. You're looking at exactly on 12 square miles you're looking at the 78,000 people that Wardle is predicting. Siddoway: I think we're - Bird: So, we're not that far off. Siddoway: I think we're right together in terms of density. Bird: I can see developments like Harris Ranch, which 1- ***End Of Side Two*** Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 31 Bird: -- density and stuff like that I think. I think that's what you're going to be seeing out here. I think you're right. I think you're going to average out to four, 4.1, 3.2 whatever. It's going to average out. De Weerd: Well, you don't want to average out at four if our facilities can only serve 3.5. I mean, don't target four if you (inaudible). Bird: You move your facilities up to the four. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: The one big difference is, when you thinking three and a half were that taking all -- that's taking all the land? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That's a big differen~e. Hawkins-Clark: 25 percent you can knock right off the roads right there. Siddoway: If you were to take -- Bird: Ten percent for open space. Hawkins-Clark: Ten percent for those -- that's 35 percent just talking general numbers. Then you've got - Bird: Of course you've got a school in there. Hawkins-Clark: Two high schools, three middle schools, -- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: We're talking just that area so by the time. you subtract all that out, you can take your residential that's left - Siddoway: They can still be five, six (inaudible) per acre in the square mile. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Well and three still is pretty dense when you start taking out all those equations too. Bird: Right. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17 , 2002 Page 32 Siddoway: Three overall is quite dense if you say that's the overall for the entire square mile. You would have, just the residential land itself would have to be more like three to six. Bird: I was going to say at least four to five. Siddoway: Or four to eight to even reach three. Hawkins-Clark: If we were figuring three dwelling units per acre times 640 acres a section that's (inaudible) dwelling u nits. (I naudible). Siddoway: Okay that's right in (inaudible) Bird: Lets leave it right there. De Weerd: See, three is not low. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That's what you call it. Hawkins-Clark: If you call it net or gross. Siddoway: How to calculate is (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: Needless to say I think we're- De Weerd: Then we should identify the calculation, or the formula and then you kind of help with that process. Hawkins-Clark: We can do it so that when future subdivisions come in we can use that -- we can calculate it. There's one argument that says you can get just too hung up on these numbers. Like you were saying, Keith just calls it residential. I don't know if you've seen the north meridian area plan but that's exactly what they've done. They haven't done any designations of low, very low, medium, high. All they have done is just residential. . Siddoway: And then giving them (inaudible) minimum density. Hawkins-Clark: They've set it at three. Then people can come in and do whatever. They don't want to worry about what the Comp Plan says other than it's residential. Bird: I don't see anything wrong with that. I personally don't see anything wrong with that because the market is going to drive what they build. Let's face the facts. We're never going to have a highlands in Meridian. We're never going to have a Banbury. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 33 We're never going to have a Spurwing because we don't have that location in our impact area. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: -- if they did (inaudible). Bird: They're not going to do it. I have no problem with doing that. To me, like Steve was saying, we're taking a quarter for low density. We're taking half for medium density and we're taking a quarter for high density or neighborhood. I don't care how they do it within that mile. De Weerd: The only way it makes a difference though Keith is where you're transitioning in (inaudible). Bird: From your -- That's the one thing you've got to look out for still. (Inaudible discussion a'mongst Council) Siddoway: Right:. You don't want to go from high to low medium. Bird: Oh, no. You've got to - like you said, they make their money by selling their projects. They're not going to do that. Nary: No one is going to build a high density residential next to a very low density residential, maybe the other way around. They won't build a low density residential next to the high density. I mean, I guess I'm not adverse to the idea too of having that flexibility either. Bird: I like the flexibility and I think it will save you guys a lot of headaches and it will save everybody a lot of headaches. De Weerd: As long as you protect those areas that you want, specifically you want a lower density. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: -- want those unless you're transitioning into another impact area I agree with you. . . De Weerd: Well that's- Bird: I agree there and I think most of those would understand that. Nary: It's a philosophical argument of control. Who has the control? Is it the property owner? The developer has the control or does the city want to maintain the control? If we create the colored blocks, you keep that control over what goes there. I think what Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeling April 17, 2002 Page 34 we've been discussing is what adds up is that we end up saying well this ones green and you really want it yellow and that doesn't fit. Then go away and come back until it can be green because that's what we want there. I think what we're all saying is we would really like to have a lot more flexibility to that. To do that we also have to give the control. I don't think the planning staff necessarily feels they have to have the personal control. I think it's that we as the Council and the Mayor have to say we're willing to give up that level of control to those things because we're comfortable enough that if we can set the guidelines which to me is no different than what we've talked about with the CU discussion. If we can create some guidelines that we're comfortable with, we don't have to be in charge of every block of that square mile. Siddoway: If you give up the control, the other side of that is you run the risk of getting the same old, same old thing perpetuated. Unless you have something to push the idea of different densities within the square mile. Bird: You're not going to get the same old, same old because the same old, same old isn't going to be profitable. I mean, you go out here in 12 square miles and throw up R- 4's you're not going to sell 'them. De Weerd: But that's all we have Keith. Bird: Yes. That's because we (inaudible). De Weerd: And they all sold. Bird: No. We had some other stuff. You're going to see commercial and stuff go up in there. I firmly believe that. I'm like Bill. I don't think we need to do all the control. I think the guys that play with their own money, that's got the money invested they're the ones that should have the control. Not 100 percent. Don't get me wrong they've got rules and regulations to live with it. It's their dollars out there. There's not a one of us in here at this table that have any money in it to lose. They're not going to go out there to just throw money away. They're going to build what is acceptable and can sell. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: The only caveat, which I guess is kind of what, I'm hearing from Keith and Brad is that argument Keith I think is absolutely correct for good responsible developers. No different than anything else, we really create the rules for the weakest link with the lowest common denominator. The person who doesn't want to build the nice project, who wants to fly at the radar, be right at the target. Not build them one little bit better, not put a support cord in, just to (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: No, you can't do it that way. You need to do something else. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 35 Corrie: The city has to have some control. Nary: Whether or not we -- I mean, I guess that's again the whole issue is how much control do we want to have? We want to have some, we want to give as much flexibility as we can but we don't want to just -- because there are many, many developers that, well not many. There are some that are going to do exactly what Steve said. They're going to build the same thing until somebody stops buying it. Then they will look at something else. We don't want to be here 10 years from now looking at the north area or the south area and saying wow how did we end up with 10 subdivisions right next to each other that look the same because we didn't have anything? We have to have something I guess (inaudible), De Weerd: I know when they came and wrote that CUP for the PUD a lot of it was motivated so that expectations were clear and the flexibility was built in but they had some benefit to do something over and above what people you are talking about do. Nary: Right. De Weerd: The one thing that I hear continuously from the develop community is that you have to haVe'some standards because .if I'm going to go over and above or I want to see some benefits. On the flip side of that, they also want to see reasonable expectations for someone who's going to build next to them. You have to have some kind of -- if you were going to that route, you're going to have to have stronger standards or clearer definitions or expectations. You're going to have to have a real strongly stated vision that if you can articulate what staff can use in those defining standards to make it work. Otherwise, you run a risk of continuing same old, same old because there are no advantages to doing it any differently. Yes, it will be market driven but the market can drive entry-level homes until the cows' home. You will not have the kind of community that you want to see integrated in together or a good mixtu re of it. Bird: The problem is don't we always -- we approve the annexation and (inaudible) Preliminary Plat and all that stuff so you do have some kind of control at that point. I don't think we should lose all control. I'm like the Mayor;. you've got to keep some. I also feel that you've got to be flexible. You've got to be very flexible so that people that want to come in and build in our impact area feel welcome and know they can put up a good project. You've got some developers that you can have all the rules and regulations a~d they still get the (inaudible) regardless (inaudible). You've got others that go above and beyond the call of duty. It's just like last night we had one. As bad as I hate seeing (inaudible) we had a person before us last night that the way you could even -- you can't control then is with a CUP. You're always going to have that. You can't write just rules for them. Nary: (Inaudible) with the mixed-use. The whole idea we had with Larry Durkin, the realtors, and the contractors on (inaudible) was if you really want, you want these neighborhood centers, define what those are, and provide incentives to do it. The Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 36 message to the development community is that if you do that here's the fast track to do it. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to but you have a process that follows a different path to get that accomplished. That gives the city the control to make sure it fits into what we would like it to be. We have already defined that. I guess, and I'm no planner, but in residential I guess I'm still thinking philosophically it's the same concept that we're talking about. If we define what it is we want philosophically as to the density of the growth and what we would like it to be, we can find ways to define that. Maybe that's is too daunting a thing to do. We could define that we can again provide that road to say that's what we want. We wanted mixed housing types. We wanted mixed density. We want variety of housing styles. We don't want R-4s from here to Boise and back. We want these varieties. When you're willing to do that, you think the market will do that, go for it. You can have that and the road to do that is easy. If you don't want to do it that way, then that's fine. We'll still look at it and we'll talk about annexing. I mean is that too daunting to try to do? Is that just too philosophical and not very realistic? I don't know. Siddoway: To encourage ~ell not encourage -- Nary: To define what we want. To me the only really way to have flexibility is to say we're going to figure out which pieces of this puzzle we want to have in the north, the south, the west and whatever. Defining what those things are and provides some level of incentive to put people on that track. They don't have to go on that track. They can do something different. The something different gives the city the control to say okay now we want to look at those because we already defined these things out of the picture. You can have all the flexibility you want. Like the north Meridian, planning group area suggested. They want to have residential. They want to have complete flexibility to have R-2's to R-16's in a particular area. If there's something like that, that we're comfortable with and we can define in what those areas are, designate those in that way. That's what they want to do. We are okay with that then we're saying okay we're going to leave that control aside. We're going to let the market place do it exactly like Keith is saying. Go for it. That's fine. If you don't want to do those things, whatever guidelines you set for that, then we have you know every other process like we normally would have to sort of be able to make sure we aren't just getting junk and we aren't just getting the minimum standard on every one of those. Like I said, that philosophically, intellectually to me doesn't seem that hard to understand. Is it realistically very hard to define that? Is it really - that's just too hard to try to put that into a (inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: Personally I don't think so. Most of what you're talking about is ordinances. Bird: Yes. Hawkins-Clark: More so than the Comp Plan. This is the guide, so this is the philosophy. Let's set the philosophy and we can go to work on some of the more extensive base ordinances for some of these areas. We do have them already for the Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 37 neighborhood centers. That was worked out. There are incentives built in it would be somewhat fast track. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: Yes. De Weerd: But in the interim what does your map say? Right? Siddoway: But not just for neighborhood centers also for medium density and low density everything (inaudible). Bird: Everything. Nary: I mean, we don't have Mr. Nichols here tonight. I'm not trying to -- I don't want to create such a problematic ordinance issue that we end up having nine years of ordinance hearings becau~e we can't get (inaudible). (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: 400appfications trying to meet that ordinance to the table because they know that oncewe figure out how to write an ordinance it may not work for them. Siddoway: What if -- I'm going to think out loud for a second. What if (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: At first I thought we were headed towards well lets just color all the residential one color and say whatever. Then we're really giving up all the control. We're not really giving them any guidance as to what we want to see. What if we put it out -- what if we just -- if we agree that this is what we want to see, for those individual cases, which where they're on the edge I want to do medium instead of low or I want to do low instead of medium. Just add a footnote that gives a policy that says that other densities can be considered without a map change. I don't know if it's are-application or if it's part of the request with the plat or what. Make it so that we give them the guidance. Okay this is what we think we want. If you think something else belongs there tell us why and if we agree, we agree and don't have to do a map change., You're not changing from residential to industrial but you can change from low to medium or medium to low. De Weerd: (inaudible) Siddoway: Yes. Bird: As long as you're in the residential zone. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 38 Siddoway: Right. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: -- you can't just put your map up there. Then like you said you'd have to have an ordinance - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: Weill wouldn't think so but -- Bird: Mr. Nichols isn't here. I can't see us having to get a bunch of ordinances but I can see one or two ordinances (inaudible) everything. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: That kind of gives the flexibility to allow changes without a map change but it still gives them the guidance of what we think we want. Nary: Not that ies the perfect model or anything but the City of Boise Planning and Zoning Code isn't a whole lot thicker than that. It might be twice as thick. It's not probably that much and you're talking a city with 180,000 people. They can figure it out without having a lot of ordinances and some of them that can be used as models. It's like they have to invent the wheel to do this. De Weerd: Just because you're a larger city doesn't mean, then you get to increase the size of (inaudible). Nary: I thought it was all related. It's because they have more lawyers. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Corrie: I think it would probably good idea. Siddoway: Do you want to take (inaudible)? Do you like the footnote idea? (Inaudible) come back to it. De Weerd: No I think (inaudible). Nary: Yes because 1 think the whole idea is just to have some ability to be able to look at that and give the staff and the Commission or the Council the ability to deal with that. I think it's -- again, you still want to make sure through your ordinances that it's fairly clear. De Weerd: You still should have target densities identified in your Comp Plan. Meridian City Council Special Camp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 39 Nary: Right. De Weerd: I'm sorry I will continue to go back to that. Corrie: She's got a one-track mind tonight. De Weerd: I do. Corrie: No offense. Nary: One of the things you may have to do is in the ordinance process is to create some better notice types of issues because really that may be really the problem. I don't want somebody who lives across the street from here, who looks at that map and knows every square inch of that -- no one in this room would fall under that category but know every bit of that area around their house. It's low density residential (inaudible) and they're breaking ground on a huge apartment complex and nobody had any idea because they would have come talk to us about it. There has to be a way to give people some ability to have some input if they do. Most of the time, they may not. They probably won't. There maybe areas, especially in the north that aren't next to any current residential anyway. It may not make any difference. De Weerd: If we deviate, we need to go double or triple the notice area? Nary: At least within a certain amount. I mean if you're going to go from obviously a very low density to an R-16, R-40 residential you probably would want to make sure people have some idea what's going to happen there. If you went from an R-4 to an R- 8, you may not. I mean, I don't know. There may be a way to fill that in because most of the time -- honestly if you were reviewing a project that was before you and no one had any complaint or objection and everybody had adequate notice in was fine with it, would we care? Probably not as long as it fits with the big picture. That's an ordinance issue. Bird: What do you guys think on this flexibility with taking care of with ordinances? It helps you don't it? It helps you guys and the staff says hey this is what the ordinance says. Siddoway: Yes. There are two sides. The more cut and dried it is the easier to apply. You can just. say these are the standards. You apply or you don't, very clear, very objective. The more flexibility you try to build in, the more subjectivity you tend to build in as well. It tends to muddy the waters but you need some of that too. Hawkins-Clark: Unless you want to be seeing variances, 20 every meeting. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Special Comp han Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 40 Bird: That's what we hope to do with this new Comprehensive Plan and new ordinances are you get away from a lot of that stuff. We know we're not -- you're not going to wipe out every CUP, you're not going to wipe out every variance, and you're not going to wipe out everything. You can just help. Siddoway: Right. Bird: It's not only good for the development community it's also good for the staff and it's good for the city. Nary: The down side of course is -- I mean, that's part of the -- the down side is more subjectivity that you want to leave the planning staff. The planning staff is not going to feel like they make all the final decisions which means that the public is going to have the right to come and ask somebody else whether it's the Commission or whether it's the Council. They're going to have the right to say wait a minute, the one right next door was okay and this one isn't. Why is that? There's too much subjectivity. We may be avoiding the CUP pro~ess but we're actually just revving up the appeal process. Just to understand that, that may be five years from now really where we're at. Then we would be lo~king at how do we get rid of all these appeals. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I believe every person every taxpayer has a right to an appeal before the elected body or Planning and Zoning. I guess we can take our (inaudible) CUP or else or appeaL Nary: Just like I said, only because in Boise we don't have a lot of CUP issues as much as we do appeals. Lots and lots of appeals. They push and push, and push things down to the staff leveL Hearing examining, design review, Planning and Zoning Commission. Philosophically the Boise City Council really is different than what you're saying Keith. The elected officials where the buck stops because you get to vote for that person. You don't get to vote for the Planning and Zoning Commissioner, or the hearing examiner, or the planning director. Eventually the buck has to stop somewhere. Generally, it's at the elected official. Just understand, not a reason not to do it, but understand that may be what we're buying instead of that. It just depends on how it plays out (inaudible). Bird: I think if we really study it and throw stuff out like we are right now and go through another public -- and get the ordinances drawn up properly the best that we think we can. I think we'll take care of the appeals and everything else. We'll also help the staff because they'll have an ordinance to stand on. If you're flexible, you can be flexible. Siddoway: The development community likes it too. In other words, they like to know what the rules are because they like to be able to think okay if I go in and play by these rules I won't have too many headaches. Meridian City Councll Special Comp Plan Meeling April 17, 2002 Page 41 Bird: That's right. Siddoway: What they hate the worst is just not knowing, you know I think I'm doing what they want - Bird: I'm not sure. Siddoway: -- but they don't know. Yes. Corrie: To give you a couple of examples, (inaudible). Nary: Every meeting I go to somebody wants something else. My project takes 10 months instead four and costs me 10 times more because everybody (inaudible). Bird: That's the thing I think. We not only, like you said Steve, help the development community but we help ourselves. You guys don't like having to work on the same project for six months do you? (Inaudible disc~ss.ion amongst Council) Bird: I thought you did. Nary: Then reject it, then turn around out three months later, and have it again. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: It doesn't help you guys. It certainly doesn't help the Mayor or the Council. Siddoway: The clearer we can make ordinances the better for everybody, especially if the ordinances are making what we want easier to approve and clearer for the development community to understand. That's the trick. Bird: You know they didn't do too badly on the -- for a first ordinance ever in Meridian. The 93 ordinances have lasted pretty --done a pretty go'od job for 10 years, or nine years. It's got its downfalls but -- now we've got some experience off .it, we need to make sure ours are much better. Hawkins-ClarK: Am I hearing correctly that we still like the idea of designations for residential? Bird: Yes. Nary: Adding a footnote. Hawkins-Clark: So that -- footnote and then - Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 42 (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: The public as well. We've mentioned the City, we've mentioned the development community, but if the public doesn't come in, pick up the ordinance, and read it for bedtime reading, they will come in and look at a map like this. Bird: That's why we've got to make sure they're all- Hawkins-Clark: That's what makes me nervous about the real broad, general residential because it really leaves a big range for the public when they come in and look at a map. They don't really know if they want to buy a piece of land they want to know what's going to become of it. Bird: As I understood, we were going to stay with the designation but have that big note down on the bottom that we could be flexible. Is that right? That would take care of (inaudible) residential. Siddoway: Residential will be considered without a map change. Bird: Yes. Siddoway: I don't know if you want a separate application for that or if you just want it part of the plat. They just need to make their case as to why - Hawkins-Clark: Yes I think it could be taken care during the annexation and the development application. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: We probably don't need to add a separate -- Nary: I think the number one thing we can do for the public is what you just said Brad, is to put at least those types of variance sorts of issues on with the - Siddoway: Rather than just burying them in the text. Bird: Oh, yes. Nary: Rather that's a flat note on the map so that someone could see that because people do look at that. You know, you're right they don't pick that book up and read it very much but they're going to look at that map and say gee it has a green dot on it. How come it's not -- if it's on the map and it just says some of these variances that can occur then at least they know that they can ask for it. They can look at the book they can understand (inaudible). Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 43 Siddoway: If I can turn that into another action item. For me it would be if you want to see another footnote for things like well sites and fire stations and everything that is a dot. Nary: Everything that's a floater. Siddoway: Yes that the - that should state on the map somewhere that those float. Bird: Right. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: It was discussed but it wasn't talked about putting it on the map. Bird: Yes. That's a great idea. It would save us some troubles. (Inaudible discussion amot:1gst Council) Nary: Because honestly people I think they look at it and say if the school is in that square and my' house is there, I'm waiting for the school district to knock on my door to buy my house. Bird: Buy me house. Yes. Nary: When they buy the one that's across the street, I'm mad because that's what most people - Bird: That dot was right next to my house. Nary: -- my house and we wanted it or I didn't want it. Most people just don't because it's just not there for them to understand that. It's not on that piece of paper. It's in the body of the book that's 150 pages long. They just aren't getting it. Bird: I think the more information we can get on the map; good information, the better off we are. I think like anything if you get it out there -- very few peopl.e are going to come in, sit down, and read through, like Bill said 150-page book to get to a certain ordinance. If it's sitting up there and it says this dot could float. This isn't- Siddoway: There's a limit to what we can put on but we need to pick what the big items are and get them on. Bird: Make sure they're on it. Siddoway: That would seem like two of them right there. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 44 Corrie: I took one ten minutes ago. Yes. Lets take a two-minute break and be back in five minutes. Five-minute recess Corrie: Okay. Where do we want to go? Do you want to look at the -- Siddoway: Do you want to go through the red items? That's kind of what I heard. Nary: Were we all okay with the green items? Corrie: I think so. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Would you lik~ me to kind of walk you through them? Corrie: Yes. Siddoway; Okay. One of the bigger ones right up top -- might as well take the bull by the horns. Change low density residential to MURG. That was a request. Basically, the issue is does Chinden Boulevard - should it be commercial or should it be for just moving traffic and no curb cuts? Should it be residential which is what this shows, low density? It's kind of that debate kind of going back and forth between well we don't want another Fairview. We want the traffic to be able to move through without having a lot of curb cuts. Transitioning to the uses that are, that we're abutting against at the City of Eagle. Do you want to match what they're doing? Do you want to go commercial? We are promoting this that's why we disagree with the proposal to go mixed-use and allow commercial. (Inaudible) that one up for discussion, Bird: Mr. Mayor. McCandless: Frankly I think it would be a nightmare if there were a lot of cuts in there. Bird: Mr. Mayor. I think Tammy brought this up and Bob and I have discussed this with the developer. I can see another BRC retail out, like is on Chinden down between Cloverdale and Eagle. I can see something like that being very good there. I think we need to have a frontage road where you've got one on curb cut. Run a frontage road down there to collect all the cars to get onto Chinden. I think it's time. Maybe we can be a leader in this. Some of these roads, I wish we would have done this 20 years ago with Eagle Road, had -- I like the idea of possibly having commercial out there, retail commercial but not a bunch of curb cuts. I think you have one curb cut, they can run their frontage road down there with their parking and everything else. Have their buildings back because if you go over there to the BRC development there's only one curb cut there. You've got that whole mall in there. You've got Lindy's Restaurant and Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 45 stuff. You've got that other and they all come right out onto one deal. There's a frontage. They use a frontage road. It's not actually a frontage because they've got landscaping and stuff between them. McCandless: I thought they came out on Cloverdale. Bird: They can come out on Cloverdale but there's only one curb cut onto Chinden for that whole development. I think that's something that if they want to put something out there like that we need to make sure that we get that incorporated in that. Just have one curb cut on Chinden. I'm like you I don't want to see a curb cut every 50 yards. McCandless: Does Linder go all the way through? It looks like it's- Bird: Yes Linder does. Hawkins-Clark: That's the one that - McCandless: I (inaudible): (Inaudible discossion amongst Council) Siddoway: Just for clarification, we're not necessarily talk about how it was designed. We're not necessarily talking about a Chinden, a strip of dirt, and then another road. It could be Chinden, lots, and then a road internal to that. There's still one point of access. Bird: There's one point of access. Hawkins-Clark: That's ITD's existing policy as of June 2001. We're not going to see -- the half mile they will allow a signal. At the half-mile. Bird: Now wait a minute, just last night they're putting a signal at Elk Run which isn't even, maybe a quarter of a mile from Overland. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: They're putting a signal there. Hawkins-Clark: My understanding is that was, Elk Run was done and that semi collector that goes through there was done before this policy kicked in. Anything that's new development from now on out- Bird: They're going to only have an access every half-mile on their state highways? Hawkins-Clark: I think they're still looking at how they're going to work that out. That was adopted. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17. 2002 Page 46 Nary: Mr. Mayor. I think with at least what's being proposed here, with having this regional center as well as a community center mixed-use of both ends of that until someone has a project that makes some different sense to it, I don't know a reason to make it different. I mean I don't necessarily know that a very low density residential along there is necessarily the right zone. I agree with Keith that I wouldn't have a problem with some commercial development or some other types of development there as long as it wasn't every 50 yards there's a curb cut there. Are we going to be though in the same boat we've talked about like with Elk Run where you know we may like that but ITD doesn't want curb cuts, ACHD doesn't want a public road. There's 40 pieces of property there. Nobody can build a frontage road because there's nobody going to get easements or connections to them all anyway. That may be what we like but it realistically isn't going to happen ever anyway. I guess I still stuck (inaudible) they certainly think that realistically low density residential along Chinden in that spot long term probably isn't going to be very realistic. It may have some other types of mixed- uses whether it's offices or something else. It may be something other than low density residential but until somebody has something, I don't know that we have to change it today. ' Siddoway: Two comments (inaudible) herE:). One is that and I'm not hard-line any certain way on this. Just there is existing low density residential across the street at least Eastof Linder, Spurwing and I can't remember all of their names. Bird: Across the street yes. Siddoway: Foxtail- Bird: Foxtail and all the (inaudible). Siddoway: If we're talking about trying to transition and match what we're coming up against that would be an argument for low density. We also have the potential through the Planned Development Ordinance that if someone does assemble some larger property they can do a 20 percent use exception to get something else out there. If you assume they were doing a planned development and having, you know a large piece of ground so they could that kind of exceptional - Nary: I don't want a strip mall on Chinden Boulevard either. I guess I don't. look at Foxtail as a low-density residential area. It's an outdoor recreation area is what it is. To me I think haVing some type of whether it's office uses or those types of things, even smaller retail some types of things as long as it wasn't set every 50 yards curb cut probably really wouldn't be a problem. You know Spurwing is kind of a mix between very low density as well as an outdoor recreation -- I mean it's a golf course there as well. It isn't just -- you know it isn't Banbury. Banbury on top of the hill there. It's just a housing development. The golf course is below the hill there so it really is just a housing development. It is a low-density housing development and it makes sense to Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 47 transition to Foxtail (inaudible). I don't know that there really isn't some call to have something else there but allowing some flexibility at some point is probably (inaudible). Bird: I agree with Bill. As long as we can be flexible enough Steve like you said, somebody comes in with the criteria and wants to put up some little -- I can see because of Spurwing and because of Foxtail and the developments that are going across the street there of having some offices, retail and stuff out there. I have no problem with keeping it like that as long as we give them the flexibility to come in and if they've got the reason to do it, do it. I still don't, even if it's low-density housing I don't want to see over one curb cut. Hawkins-Clark: Yes. We do already have two applications Keltic Heights and Lochsa Falls are taking up almost the entire low-density designation up there, those two miles, and just two projects. They're able to do it underneath this because they're doing no more than 20 percent non-residential. The planned development allows them to take up to 20 percent. Siddoway: Lochsa Falls has office, commercial, frontage all along Chinden -- Bird: Yes they ,do. Siddoway: -- as their use exception, they're proposing. Bird: If they're on both sides and I think this is something that the staff and we can certainly uphold. Their exits come out onto Linder. No curb cuts onto Chinden. Nary: So, is it like those developments along Eagle Road that have the, near Lowell Scott, those doctor offices that type of thing is that what-- Hawkins-Clark: Except you can get to it from inside. Bird: Yes. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: You can't- Hawkins-Clark: The one on Eagle - Bird: Yes you can get through it from -- what's that Hubble? The one that David did? There on the east side. Hawkins-Clark: Oh,-- Bird: Hobble Creek, you can get to Dr. (inaudible) and all those doctor offices in there through - Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 48 Hawkins-Clark: But not on the west side of Eagle. Bird: Not on the west side. You're right. Those stop there. I think that's - see Bristol Heights had to go back out and get on Eagle to get into them I don't think that's good. De Weerd: That's awful. Bird: It's awful Tammy you're right. De Weerd: I don't know I guess if we did do something like that you definitely want to have an adequate buffer zone. I know Keith talked about increasing it or it was increased in the landscape ordinance. Siddoway: It's proposed in here. It's always been 35. We're actually proposing it to be 50 right on state highways adjacent to residential. Not adjacent to commercial. De Weerd: 35 if it's commercial? Siddoway: Yes 35 if it's commercial. Bird: But didn't you also make a statement Steve at either one of the hearings or something out of that 50 if they want to put a frontage road in that could be part of the buffer? Did we talk about that last week or was it at some meeting? Siddoway: We talked about the frontage road before but - Bird: And we had gone 50 feet. We changed it to 50 so if they wanted to come in and bring in a 30-foot frontage road then the other 20 feet could be the landscape area. That we would count that. That sticks in my mind somewhere that was stated by one of you guys because one of you guys, Shari, Dave McKinnon, or somebody. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That's what stuck. I like that idea. I love it you know but if they want to put in a frontage road, put 20 foot of landscaping, and then add a little road. Siddoway: If it were commercial or office, they wouldn't have the 50-footrequirement that's currently written. It would only be 35. They could also get the whole buffer just- Bird: No, I think you have a minimum. I think you have a minimum. You've got to have at least a 15 foot or 20 foot minimum. Then if they want to take off the rest of their stuff to get that put in -- if they want to take 15 feet and put another 15 or 20 feet with it out of their property fine. No, you've got to have a minimum buffer along those state highways. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 49 McCandless: How far back is Lindy's? Do you have any idea? Bird: Lindy's? McCandless: Yes. Bird: Oh, heavens it's a long ways. Nary: It's quite a ways because there's a business in between --. Bird: There's a business in between it. Nary: There's like a - McCandless: There is? Bird: Yes, there is. Nary: -- type of place between Lindy's. De Weerd: Yes,'the Econo-Lube. Bird: Econo-Lube. I would say they're at least 30 feet to that. I think they've got 30 feet of green along there. McCandless: Then Target on the other side is quite a ways back. Bird: Oh, man yes. Target is way back but their parking lot comes out- ***End Of Side Three*** Bird: -- I don't think they can go any wider. So I think - I don't think (inaudible). Nary: -- a little shopping center off the hill - Bird: See, they've got the Jack in the Box and the Stinker station on th~ corner out in front there. It's got some green around it too. Not as much, but it's got green. . Smith: My memory is failing me. It seems like during that 1-84 corridor study that was presented to us there was a discussion about linking Chinden or Highway 20/26 as an alternate route to relieve some of the traffic burden (inaudible). I don't recall whether that was -- If they decided to just improve the capacity totally on the interstate (inaudible). If they're still planning on widening 20/26 from the Caldwell exit into Boise to carry some of the traffic off 1-84. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 50 Bird: Gary weren't they going to widen that to five with the center lane which they don't have a center lane all the way down. Also in that same study, wasn't Ustick planned to be a five lane from Caldwell to Boise at the in that same plan? Not at the same time but in that plan? Corrie: Boise's fighting that. Bird: Are they fighting the Ustick one? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That was part of the proposal? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Smith: I think that, that just -- if that's still part of the plan that at least amplifies your concerns about (inaudible). Bird: Yes. Smith: (Inaudible). Hawkins-Clark: I believe Jonathan Hennings at ITD told me that they're planning a corridor study from Caldwell to I believe Cloverdale of 20/26 in 2003 or four. It's just a study to know how much preservation right-of-way they need, how much right of way they need for their (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: If there's a way that we can encourage that since ACHD hesitates to ask for things because they might have to pay for it and those kinds of things. If we can build incentives putting the 50-foot setback unless they have a frontage road or one row of lots with a row -- you know frontage roads can be really (inaudible). What are those called if you just have a row of lots and then your road? Bird: That's a collector road Siddoway: It's like an internal collector. Bird: Internal collector? Siddoway: It's not really a frontage road but- Bird: it's an internal collector that comes out of one access. Siddoway: Yes. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 51 De Weerd: But you know if you - that they could deviate from the 50 foot setback. You would still have to have 35. You can have either development with your internal roads or you could have a frontage road that could make up some of that space. Then you're giving incentives to do that or you get 50 foot setback and then you get strip mall or (inaudible). If you still have them at one point of access then it's (inaudible). McCandless: You know they've got that nursery down, next to the Catholic Church on Meridian and Chinden. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) McCandless: Yes, they've got an out to Chinden. De Weerd: Yes we need to control what we can at this point because- McCandless: Yes. Siddoway: There's three, four, or five. Bird: I was going to say there's, right through there, there's three or four like Steve said of things on there. We need to get it stopped right now before they're every 50 yards. At every 50 yards they've got a -- De Weerd: Well and we need to get it in our area of impact agreement- Bird: That's right. De Weerd: -- so Ada County stops that. Bird: -- letting them do it. Tammy I like your idea real well because if we let them build their retail mall or whatever 35 feet from the road and make them have a collector inside. That's nice, very nice, looks nice, and does the whole job. You don't have no parking there. You see a building and they (inaudible). Nary: You're not talking about having a house 35 feet from Chinden? Bird: Oh, no. Nary: Then a road on the other the side? De Weerd: No if it's residential - Nary: Okay. Because I think -- I don't know how close those houses are on Eagle Road but I'm pretty sure -- I don't know that I would want to live there, Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 52 Bird: No those (inaudible) are horrible De Weerd: -- no Banbury they're within 35 feet. Nary: Probably is. Bird: Banbury? De Weerd: Yes. Nary: Yes. I could imagine (inaudible) Bird: I don't think so. I think they've got 35 and they've probably got another 50 or 60 feet of back yard. De Weerd: They have their property line. Bird: Oh, property line you're probably true Tammy. I think we need to encourage landscaping like Banbury and the one coming down, those berms and stuff as we come along here. I think that really adds kind of (inaudible). De Weerd: It's going to break Eagle to Meridian. Bird: You bet. Nary: Is that the entryway corridors too? Is that what you're talking about here too Steve on the land use map? Is that the again, more of the landscaping, that type of thing? Siddoway: Yes. That green line that is entryway corridor. It's defined in the text to say that if it's residential on a state highway then it's 50 feet. If it's commercial and it's a state highway, it's 35. All the others are 35 at least. Nary: Okay. Siddoway: -- or the interstate, is the federal highway, that's also 50 feet. The state highways have that designation for the full length that they are in our impact area. They're just designated as entryway corridors the full length of the state highways. The other arterials are basically just designated for the first, is it quarter mile or half mile? Hawkins-Clark: Half-mile. Siddoway: As they enter the impact area. Then they just become a regular arterial. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 53 Bird: Let me throw out something else. South Eagle Road, maybe the Mayor can -- we're starting to get blooming development out there. Is there plans to take South Eagle and go on widen it out at all Mayor? Siddoway: It loses its highway designation I think - Bird: At Overland doesn't it? Yes. Corrie: I haven't heard anything - Hawkins-Clark: It's not in the five-year work plan. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I didn't see it either. We're letting subdivisions all along that corridor get right up there. We're going to have two, and I'm sure they're going to be successful office complexes built there. Thousand springs is filling up if they aren't already filled up. We've got more -- ' (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We've got more coming out there. Siddoway: They have the 35-foot buffers at Silverstone and EL Dorado. Bird: Yes we got that. Siddoway: You were referring to the curb cuts? Bird: Yes that's what I'm referring to that too. Siddoway: He's also referring to the encroachment towards it, whether or not they need additional right-of-way. Bird: Yes. I'm also thinking we better be looking at curb cuts. Especially now that they're going across Victory and headed out. I mean, we just can't be allowing curb cuts every quarter mile onto that road I don't believe. I think we make"those developers come in, get a collector, and come out on the half-mile on those subdivisions. De Weerd: On highway 69 too. Bird: You're right Tammy. We don't need to be dumping their traffic through another subdivision that's been there and trying to get it through there like they want us to at Bear Creek and Elk's Run. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 54 De Weerd: That's awful. I think we should be (inaudible). Well, we did ask in one of our meetings for a text addition from ACHD and ITD on what to do for, in particular 69. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: Yes. Joe Rosenthal. We are supposed to meet next week. He's been really -- well we tried to get it for this meeting but he has the meeting with ITD on it because there really are no, whether you call them frontage roads or whatever in the whole valley. They're just not around here. Lewiston has some that are very ugly. Now does it actually function? I mean the Highway District doesn't have any experience really with how to get them because they can't require offsite improvements. If the property owner comes in, they can't get to the half-mile. Then how do you require them to go up to the half mile if they don't own the property (inaudible)? Bird: You've got a real problem there but at the same token if they will start requiring because there are very few developments that aren't practically going the half-mile. It's just like Elk Run, another 50 or 60 feet to the south of theirs, there's a half mile. If they would have dumped it out'there instead of back there. I think it's a good time right now for all the transportation people and the cities and the county and everybody else to take a good hard look at getting just one curb cut in each mile. I don't know how you do it. I think it's something that we really need to look at. Siddoway: If someone comes in on the quarter mile and they're the first one in, they say I want to develop and you say sorry. You know you either have to buy your neighbors property in order to get you a point of access or you wait. De Weerd: But you will not have a traffic light until the properties beside you develops. Hawkins-Clark: You can do temporary. You can do temporary access until the half- mile becomes viable. Bird: That's right. Temporary can work. Just think of this. Ten Mile we know is going to get widened. ]t's going to be very major once the interchange is done. Right between Ustick and Cherry Lane there's six curb'cuts on the east side and seven on the west side if I counted right. That's in a mile. Siddoway: I'm surprised it's only that much. Bird: That is in a mile. Particularly the new areas that we've got coming before us, we need to really hard as a staff and as a Council and a Mayor need to really look at this very hard and see if there's anyway we can get people out of the half-mile. Siddoway: Yes I agree. Having curb cuts- Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 55 De Weerd: You know even if you go over to Cherry Lane Village, they have a row of houses with a street that runs from point to point. There are design incentives you can put in there to have those rows. Especially- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Three. Corrie: On the south side. Bird: On the south side. Corrie: Then there's one, two, three - well Cherry Lane (inaudible). De Weerd: Yes but they're real easy to get to one if you had only a light that you put in there. It's very easy to transition there because there's not a major pain that you have to go like this to get to the light. It's pretty much a straight shot. You know those are the things and Ten Mile won't be a major road the major road would be Black Cat. Bird: Where are they going to chop over at? Where are they going to chop over at? Hawkins-Clark: South of Franklin. Bird: That's one of the plans but they go across the river. They've also got - the other plan I've seen was come up was it McMillan or Ten Mile. Ten Mile to I don't remember what and then cut over. I know the last one was slow down there and go across and that's probably the best way to do it because nobody there's no houses to fight. That one square mile or half three quarter of a square mile from the freeway to Franklin from Black Cat to the others, three houses on that now that they've taken (inaudible) (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Siddoway: If I can maybe bring us back. Bird: Yes let's get back on the red ones. Siddoway: This is a great discussion so I didn't want to even try to cut it off. The question was do we want to show it as low density residential and. require that commercial office type projects can only be done through planned development 20 percent use exceptions or do you want to go ahead and encourage commercial office mixed-use MURG as it was requested with just the caveat that there's limited access. Bird: Boy that would be my deal mixed use with the one curb cut or none. Nary: The only thing that would scare me is by having those mixed use centers on either ramp you're really it's a watering down of some sort Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 56 Bird: That's true Nary: Even with limited access. I'd rather have the PUD type of process only because if somebody really has the desire to build commercial, right now we're saying this is the area we are going to provide incentive to do so. Now if you want to come in here without it said it's just a different method to do it because we want to have a lot more give and take as to what it's going to be, how it's going to look, how it's going to be in relation to Chinden, how it's going to transition from the other things. I mean it doesn't prohibit them from doing that. It just makes it a little bit different and keeps the commercial a little bit further spread apart. What I'd rather see is when you're talking commercial and talking stores on the end with offices in the middle would be fine. I don't think that's a problem. I'm just afraid if you put that as a mixed use of the middle, it's just a strip mall. Hawkins-Clark: I guarantee that any property on there, their argument will be to come before the council and say this is going to be a state highway and I should have commercial. That will be' the argument. So I think Steve's right it gets back to the philosophy of vision question about Chinden as a corridor and it's going to stay 55 mph according to lTD. "It's certainly never going to go below that. Nary: And it's not necessarily although that is outdoor entertainment facility at Foxtail it's not a strip mall either so you know I don't think that's going to change all the way down Chinden. If I own those pieces in the middle, yes, that's the argument I would make but if I was the property owner on the west side of that mixed-use regional I'd say well not my house. My house is still low density residential there anyways so just cause it's on Chinden doesn't necessarily mean it has to be commercial. McCandless: Can I ask a question? It might sound kind of stupid. But I'm wondering why you think a frontage road in the first place if you've got outlets there a mile apart but you've got Meridian, Linder, and Ten Mile. Bird: Yes. Cherie you're right. We took the frontage off. We just said to get they could only have a collector road maybe put it half way through the thing if they want. Siddoway: How many places do we want to connect out to Chinden this way? McCandless: I know, but why would you need them at all? Bird: Well, at some point they think they do. McCandless: Linder goes out here, Ten Mile does, and Meridian does. Nary: Because it's like he said. Between Ustick. and Cherry Lane, we got six on one side and seven on the other. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 57 Siddoway: You got to get people to those points of access. Bird: And they can have behind the buildings and stuff so they don't look like frontage roads and that's what we're encouraging but- Siddoway: If this guy right here does how does he access - Bird: You allow him a curb cutter. Siddoway: Get a temporary access onto Chinden and then get some kind of access for him to get out there. McCandless: I was looking at this thinking it was a road but it's not. Siddoway: Oh no that's just a land use. Hawkins-Clark: Yes exactly. Bird: Well, I have no problem Steve with putting it in like making sure that the people if they do want to go with the commercial that they have a way to do it. Siddoway: Most of that is going to be in plan development anyway - Bird: You're right. Siddoway: -- Lochsa and Keltic. Just so you know what's coming on those, they are proposing office, commercial, college, and strip. I wouldn't really call it a strip mall but it is linear use of office and commercial but it does have the inset frontage road like you're talking about. Bird: They're not going to be on it just like a mall. They're not going to be on the same plane. Siddoway: It'll show on the same plane. Bird: Oh, do they really? That's why I like BRC. Those look like houses in there because they're not in just one row- De Weerd: Well, they don't run parallel. Bird: No, no they run through - De Weerd: They're more-- Siddoway: It's a Conditional Use Permit. That would be a thing that would be great comments to have as conditions for maybe thinking about some of those design issues. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 58 They are doing the inset. They're doing the Chinden single access row of commercial office buildings and then a frontage road that connects behind it. The next one right below it, it should just take a second. That little spot, change medium density residential to low density residential. He has an existing home, he's, -- Lochsa is building around him. He wants to make it known that he's low density but we don't see a reason to zone just one lot different or I guess we're not zoning but give it a different land use designation. We just say to keep it, as it's shown on there as part of the whole block of medium density residential. Nary: Well, it doesn't harm his use at all to have it as a medium density - Siddoway: No. De Weerd: (Inaudible) one more time backed up on Chinden. If it's a PO, can they have high density then or are we still looking for -- Siddoway: He can do it as part- De Weerd: -- if there's a residential, that you'd still have somewhat of a transition into and around here with commercial if, you wer~ to have commercial. Hawkins-Clark: The Planned Development is not required I suppose. Is that what you mean? De Weerd: Right. It's not required but - and it's still very low - but if they did do a planned development so they could put commercial in there, do they still have to go very low density? Hawkins-Clark: Not according to the change that you just recommended because there's a footnote that says residentials don't have to show -- Siddoway: Other densities will be considered. Hawkins-Clark: - if it shows low they can request mediufTl or high without changing the map- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: We're just kind of saying this is generally what we think would work but if you want to come in and pull something else, you don't have to change the Comp Plan map to do it if you stay residential. It's still the 20 percent they could still potentially ask for (inaudible) and they wouldn't have to do the rest of it two or less. Which is what - well very low is two buildings per acre or less. Low is three or less. The way you just changed, I think potentially ask and not have it stick with the three or less. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 59 De Weerd: Well, maybe on that little footnote, you know put something to the affect that it can't change more than one step. If you're at low density, you're not going to get high density or if you're at a very low, you're not going to get a high. You still have some -- Bird: But if you come in with a PO though, Tammy, that's the thing that's nice about the PO, is you can determine that. I'm not too sure that if we're going to have some go back to the BRC center. They transitioned between the houses and the offices with the apartments with the high density. I'm not too sure that we might not want that. I can't see myself going out and putting up a one half million-dollar house abutting my property up against office buildings and McDonalds or something like that. I think that high density might be the ideal buffer on certain situations like that to your low density. De Weerd: If I were Eagle, I'd be at these meetings. Bird: If you would what? De Weerd: If I was Eagle I would be at these meetings because I'd want to preserve what you're doing across the street. Bird: Well, y~s; (inaudible) Siddoway: We should go over to the right, still above McMillan. There's that change medium density residential to commercial. It's related to it, there's a dash line kind of around it, is to allow mixed use along McMillan Road between Locust Grove and the City of Boise. Both of those we disagreed with. We didn't want to designate commercial that would be competing with the Neighborhood Centers that were designated. Again, they always have the option of planned development. We just wanted to keep it as currently designated, which is medium density residential for the most part. Bird: That was the suggestion of the owner of that piece of property wasn't it? Siddoway: Yes. The one specifically on the corner was and then there was a neighbor somewhere that was talking about the whole -- Bird: Yes. Siddoway: There was a separate person that talked about the whole corridor. Nary: Isn't that were the park is and there's a church or something that's going to build there -- Bird: Yes the Ustick Baptist is one mile. Well, not quite one mile. There's our line. This is Locust Grove. They come here, the church is probably right about there, and the park is right up there. You have the Idaho Power transfer station across to the south of Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17 , 2002 Page 60 it. You have a lot of development there. I'm with you. I wouldn't change that because we have a planned center right there. (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Bird: You've got, basically, even though it is in Boise, you've got the little Albertson's and stuff sitting over there on that corner so I don't think we need the commercial -- Nary: And there's still a way to do it. Bird: Yes, there's still a way to do it if they want to come and do it. Siddoway: Moving over to the right somemore. At the northeast corner of Ustick and Eagle Road, we have a request from someone who wants to be removed from the City of Meridian's area of impact so they can develop today with Boise city services. Nary: Haven't we talked a,bout this one. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: We"talked about it (inaudible) with Eagle and Ustick as your separator, I think thatthis makes sense and I think we all had this discussion in the workshop. Nary: Right. Bird: I have to tell you that if they want to sign off -- Nary: Was that other little purple piece next to that, I know not in exchange, but kind of the same idea, adding that to our area of impact -- that's - I think that's what city of Boise (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: The blue one I think or the purple one I think has been agreed on. That was one where the area of impact line splits through a property. (Inaudible). That problem doesn't exist at the corners. We have down here that we disagreed but it sounds like there was agreement. Nary: Was there a particular reason -- Bird: That you didn't want to see it go over? Hawkins-Clark: Just - we were going off history. Nary: Oh, I see. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 61 Hawkins-Clark: -- previously denied. Nary: Contention. Hawkins-Clark: Yes it is the only piece on the north side of Ustick on the east side of Eagle that is in the area of impact. Siddoway: There is something to be said for having the same standards applied to all four corners. At the same time, it's such a major road, intersection, do you really notice? Bird: What's your idea, Gary? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Ustick and Eagle road. He wants to- Smith: (Inaudible) leave the area of impact on northeast corner (inaudible) Bird: Do youa!;Jree with that? Smith: Well, we're not going have sewer there until probably the first of next year. De Weerd: Until the cows come home? Nary: We can keep talking about it until we have the sewer there I guess (inaudible). Bird: At this point, I think you don't know how far - Gary were you going to just go under Eagle? Smith: Yes. Bird: So, now we would not have to go under Eagle if he was to go to Boise, at this point. Smith: There is part of it on south side of Ustick that I think (inaudible) Bird: Have you already got that in? De Weerd: It's not going under Ustick. Smith: Pardon me? Bird: I mean under Eagle. You won't have to go across Eagle will you? (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Meridian City Council Special Comp t ,dn Meeting April 17. 2002 Page 62 Bird: Yes, I know we've got a one half mile but who's down there to service right now? Smith: On the south side of Ustick on the east side of Eagle. That's the corner that Stinker station owns. Bird: Yes, but, have they applied? Smith: No, they haven't applied. They talked to P&Z several times about- Bird: Oh, I didn't know. I knew they had that but I didn't know they were ready to develop. Because I know, Winston is ready to break loose on the other corner. Smith: Right. I'm not saying they're ready to develop - Bird: But you are going to take it out there to them. Smith: We have to, yes. Bird: Okay. Smith: We've got to provide service (inaudible) Bird: What do you think of the trade, Mayor? (Inaudible) Corrie: (Inaudible) I just think (inaudible) he's got sewer right next to it. United Water can go there if they want to anyway. Bird: They're already there. They're just to the north of him with the sewer. Corrie: So I think if we take, get that purple part which is Boise (inaudible) get the land demarcation down. Siddoway: So we're going to agree. Bird: I guess. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: It appears the only reason not to is because it's on the corner. Corrie: It's on the corner. That's exactly right. Nary: How big is that piece? Siddoway: 40 acres. Meridian City CouncH Special Comp r Idn Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 63 Bird: The only problem is even if we retain it in our impact area we will get no building fees off from it because we can't, right now, there's no way we can annex it. We won't get anything off from it other than our sewer hook-up. Siddoway: If we allow to develop in the county area? Bird: It's going to develop. Siddoway: Okay. Let's shift over to the area near the railroad tracks and Ten Mile. There are several red parcels over there, Nary: What about the piece at Pine? Siddoway: Oh, yes, that's in that area. Nary: Oh, okay. I thought you just further south, that's all. Siddoway: So the one that has the Number 1 and the Number 2 says that we had two requests on that property. One from the property owner and one from a neighbor who is not a property' owner. The non-property-owner wants it changed from mixed-use to medium density residential. The property owner wants it changed from MUN to MUG. We disagreed with both of them and wanted to leave it as MUN assuming this concept is fine. Ifs shown as mixed-use on there. This is the Valerie Heights site. The neighboring subdivision would like to see it not be allowed to be high density residential. The property owner would like the ability to do more than just the MUN -- De Weerd: It's already zoned -- Bird: It's already zoned. We already went through that battle and right now they are zones MUZ. Would be MUZ, wouldn't it? Siddoway: They're zoned R-15 Bird: R-15 plus L-O. What is that -- In your mixed-use, what is that classification? Siddoway: It would be more like the MUG. Bird: That's what I thought. Why do we want to change it? Siddoway: One thought is, to make it MUG so that it aligns with is currently improved. The other thought is that making it MUN doesn't take away any of the entitlements it currently has. If they don't build that and they come back for something else, should we allow it to be that intense or if they're starting over, should it be something else. Meridian City Council Special Comp t-'lan Meeting AprJl 17, 2002 Page 64 De Weerd: Well, we've told them if they start over it reverts back to its original designation. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: That is common language in a Development Agreement that we have for de-annexation. I can't remember on that one (inaudible)- Bird: Look that up. De Weerd: It was not transferable. It could deviate. Hawkins-Clark: He said at our last public hearing he just really didn't have any hope that he had a lot of property developers looking at it and he didn't have any hope that it was going to be developed as approved. If it's not going to go as approved then what do we want? Nary: Isn't the fair thing that we've done on most of these other pieces that we've talked about. We try to zone it for what it's currently used or permitted. This is an MUC. I guess I'd have 'a hard time justifying because I'm sure he'll be back. (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: So to be fair and consistent with how we're applying all these other types of zones, it seems only fair that it should be what it currently appears to be (inaudible). De Weerd: But you know it was only that way, Bill, because of the certain conditions and allowances that were built into it. You know, it only got a little bit more because of those conditions. Nary: But that's what he's got. Bird: That's what he's zoned though. Now, Tammy, -- Nary: You're right but that's what he's got. You're right. You may have given him more than what it would have been otherwise. That is what he has. What we've done on these other pieces is said what do they have, what's there, and if we're going to leave it, then we're ju~t leaving what they have. Siddoway: They can't change it without coming back for another CU. He's got an existing CU they'd have to modify it. Nary: He'd have to build it the way it got approved. If he can't he can't It doesn't matter whether it's MUC or whatever. Meridian City Council Special Comp han Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 65 Siddoway: So you can put the same kinds of conditions as far as lowering the building heights next to the existing residential - anyway - you can do that again. Bird: That's right. Like Bill says if he wants to build, he has to build right now. He can start tomorrow and build what his conditions are, that we passed. So why change it? Why not allow it to stay that way because that seems -- Siddoway: We'll go for a Number 2. Is that what I'm- Bird: Yes, MUC. Nary: It just seems like this isn't the one to have a fight over. Siddoway: Okay. Right next to it, his neighbor would like to change from medium density residential to MUC also. Bird: That's the one acros~ the street, right? Hawkins-Clark: No, same side Siddoway: Same side just a little farther to the east - there's a house there. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: Yes, I know which one you're talking about. Nary: It's that one house. Hawkins-Clark: It's six acres in size, Siddoway: He says this is Valerie Heights right here. Bird: Yes. I know which one it is. He goes up to the Eddy place that was developed. He goes up to the ditch actually. Siddoway: We are showing -- we kind of went back and forth on this on.e I think as we talked. It is adjacent to this other approved project of Valerie Heights. He does have some separa~ion from the existing residential in the form of a canal. He is up against them. The question is do we want to transition from the MUC to have him be medium density residential so that we don't put more intense development up against the existing neighbors there or do we allow him to match Valerie Heights type. Nary: What happens to that little triangle portion right east of that red square? Siddoway: It's already developed. Meridian City Council Special Comp f-'Ian Meeling April 17. 2002 Page 66 Nary: Oh, okay. Siddoway: Those are C lots already on it on it actually. (Inaudible). Bird: That's part of Eddy's place. Hawkins-Clark: Our thinking was that if it's developed as it's approved, they have apartments in Valerie Heights there up to their east boundary. Then, we're showing then go to medium density and go to the low, which is what's already there pretty much. I guess it's going to R-2 medium. (Inaudible) It's got to be medium, medium, and then high. Nary: Currently there's just a house there. Bird: Right. Siddoway: House and a field with some cows or something. It's also not on the corner like Valerie. ' De Weerd: HoW about MUN? Siddoway: You could go MUN and you'd transition from MUC at Valerie Heights to MUM to existing residential. Plus non-residential use is allowed too. It could be commercial or office. Bird: I tell you what, being on a corner and on Pine, the only reason I agreed with Valerie Heights getting some commercials is because you have Ten Mile and you have Pine. Coming back a quarter of a mile, I would not recommend any kind of offices, retail or anything along there. That road is horrible. McCandless: That's why I voted against Valerie Heights to begin with. Bird: You're the only one that did -- McCandless: I know. Nary: I guess to me to try to patchwork some of these things. If they don't. have a project, it's a ~peculation thing. I don't see a reason to monkey around with it right now. Bird: Your medium residential (inaudible) Nary: If they bring a project that makes some sense like Keith's saying. Right now, it's kind of hard of to envision that as really being a viable place to have an office or something like that but if someone thinks they can and they want to bring something that looks reasonable, especially if Valerie Heights gets developed, then it would make more sense. If it doesn't, and it remains a farm, then it really doesn't make much sense Meridian City Council Special Comp !-'Ian Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 67 to have that being even an MUN. If Valerie Heights does develop and I'll bet it probably would, but until then I'm not going - I mean I don't know. De Weerd: It kind of sounds that they're working together on it what they've testified up to this point. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: When you see the ground break that's when - Siddoway: The question is, if someone did come forward with a project you thought would work, will we have to do a comp plan change on the map? If it's just medium density residential only, we'll want to do it not just 20 percent but pretty much all office- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: If Valerie Heights wants to buy that piece and add it on we'll try to do something together. ' (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: They would have. Nary: They'd have to have a land map change. Bird: If you put it MUN, they'd still have to have a change, wouldn't they? Siddoway: No because that would allow for non-residential uses. Nary: But, right now to me, it only makes sense, either if it's Valerie Heights as part of one big development. By itself, or Valerie Heights is developed, then it makes sense. But the third scenario, which is right now maybe the most potentially possible is that (inaudible) all by itself and then they want to build some sort of office or something else there that doesn't really at least I would want to see that in are-zone. Bird: I think I'd want to see it. I'd definitely want to see how they plan on getting it if they're going to have offices in there, how they plan on getting traffic. Siddoway: S6 we'll leave it medium density residential? Okay. Heading just south on Ten Mile, we have changed mixed-use to industrial. Actually, we just take all three of these together. We've got changed mixed-use from industrial, changed mixed-use to industrial, and changed mixed-use to commercial. These are all people that are just leery of the mixed-use designation and it's requirement for Conditional Use Permits and just wanted to be just flat out commercial or industrial. We disagreed with them, especially because of what you see right in the center, which is a potential future transit station. We see this as a very important area to have some control over in terms of how Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 68 things develop and are laid out so that we can preserve some potential for that to actually happen someday. Nary: If you create that industrial right, there it's not adjacent to any other industrial. Bird: Well it could be. We've got storage here already, With this coming here, I think this whole area is ideal for industrial, when this thing gets off here. I firmly believe. I can see that being, whether he develops that, I don't know, but I would have no problem letting it be industrial. Siddoway: (Inaudible) talk about that is 2nd because we do show that as mixed-use which includes clean industry but I think you're saying it could even include heavy industry. Bird: No, I don't think--- Siddoway: Okay, so we are supporting- Bird: Light industrial. You're running it through mixed-use so that everything they put in there, they have to come forward with and see you. Siddoway: Unless we say that MURG doesn't require one, then they wouldn't. Bird: Can we take care of that MURG in an ordinance that wouldn't require a seam? Hawkins-Clark: Well, that's Comp Plan. Siddoway: We just do it right in the Camp Plan. Hawkins-Clark: You could do it right now because this MURG doesn't actually exist yet. That's what we're here to talk about. Bird: But what is - well we've talked MURG, what does that entail? Siddoway: It's the most intense. It allows everything in the MUN and .MUC plus big entertainment uses, theater, major employers, and clean industry. Hawkins-Clar~: If you'll see these, there's only one, two, three, four, five, six, there's 7 areas and they're almost all at significant intersections. Siddoway: Major intersections. Hawkins-Clark: Interstate oriented stuff. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 69 Bird: I think myself, having this here, I see industrial and stuff here a lot better than I do residential for the simple fact it's just like out at Eagle road. How much residential have you seen built since that interchange went in? Siddoway: Right and that's why --- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: That's why we've already gotten as close to it -- ***End Of Side Four*** Siddoway: -- heading north along Ten Mile from the interchange we are agreeing with changing what's shown on there as residential to mixed-use. The one that's - the big green block right at the corner is an agreement to change the Neighborhood Center and the medium density to mixed-use. The red right below was disagreeing with changing the medium density to commercial but noting that we would agree with mixed-use there as well. Basically (inaudible) mixed-use and it goes like this (inaudible). Bird: I think that's great. Corrie: That gives your people thinking about doing something there (inaudible). Nary: And if they do that mixed-use regional it would allow clean industrial, type uses. Siddoway: Which we have already noted on here. The only - then the question is the Conditional Use Permit and that we're fine with just removing the requirement from that MURG designation. The only places that I would see that as an issue for discussion is that if you look over to the eastern edge of that large block of MURG there's the existing subdivision. Is that Whitestone? Bird: Yes. You have a problem there. You've got a school and everything else down there. Siddoway: The school and those won't necessarily be coming through for Conditional Use Permit's unless you put - we can leave off the requirement for the CU from just blanketing this and just deal with it at the annexation and development agreement stage. If something comes in and they're right up against it and say okay, you're going to have to do .Conditional Uses and Condition of Annexation to do that. Bird: The problem is what if this is a one big blanket that they come in. It'll take about half that colored area in as one. McCandless: Well there's another problem too and that is if they come down Black Cat and jog over to Overland or to Ten Mile for the interchange. That's going to go right through that area. Meridian City Council Special Comp hcln Meeling April 17 , 2002 Page 70 Siddoway: It would go right through it. Bird: That wouldn't hurt it at all. Hawkins-Clark: Is that a concern to me? McCandless: (Inaudible) a concern yes because you've got- Hawkins-Clark: Franklin will be widened. Corrie: (I naudible). McCandless: Before they do that? Nary: Would it be wise that mixed-use regional could simply create in there that the only time the Conditional Use would be necessary is if it was adjacent to residential (inaudible). ' Bird: Good idea. . Nary: So that way - so if - Siddoway: (Inaudible) requires it in the schedule of use control. Just to make that clear. Bird: That's great, yes. Nary: So that way if there is somebody that wants to put in a light industry of some sort that's going to be right behind that school and (inaudible) subdivision they'll have to come in for a CUP. We can deal with buffers, heights, hours, and whatever. If it's over there off of Ten Mile where right now is just fields that's fine. The whole idea of this was to get that level of flexibility but not necessarily put it up against somebody's house. Bird: That's a good idea. Siddoway: So no CU required in MURG unless project is within - Nary: 300 feet? Bird: 300 feet above residential, school or- Hawkins-Clark: You wouldn't have to say the project you could just say the property abuts residential. Meridian City Council Special Comp I-'Ian Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 71 Nary: Well it depends because if they have a 20 acre site there, that they're 1,000 feet from the residences because of whatever it is they're doing - Siddoway: And the back part of the properties remaining undeveloped you're saying? Bird: Yes. Hawkins-Clark: Or if they on their own accord choose to put a buffer in there naturally. Bird: If they put a big field or something. Nary: Because I would hate for somebody, like for example with (inaudible) say they were going to do this and they have this entire block here. It abuts this residence but they're going to develop this portion of it. Until they develop the portion next to the residence, I don't know who will care. We do care if their development isn't next to it. I think - I don't know if you want to say where the property goes there or is it whether or not the project itself is within 300 feet or something like that. The least of it's 100 yards away. I don't know does 1'00 yards away seem very far? Bird: That's Cl football field, that's quite a way. Nary: It depends on whose 100 yards it is you know. Bird: It depends on whether you're running or walking. If you're running, it's one heck of a long way. Bird: If you're window it's out there 105 yards away doesn't look very far. I don't know what's the magic number. That way at least we're trying to cover both sides of the concern. We've got the ones that are fairly close to the residences we're going to have at least some input and some opportunity to carve out something. Siddoway: (Inaudible) clarification on how we're going to implement this. If the project is within 300 feet of - let's say they're not within 300 feet of a subdivision but they're within 300 feet of a single rural residential house. Does that count too? Nary: I think if it's a residence. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council members) Nary: A residence or a school Bird: Or a school. I think you also include schools. Siddoway: Okay. Meridian City Council Special Comp han Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 72 Nary: Like I said maybe at the hearing process maybe people would think 1,000 feet is better. I don't know. I don't know if that 300 is a magic number it's just something that we tend to throw around a lot. 1,000 seems like a pretty long way to me. Bird: It's a long way. Siddoway: I was really thinking 50 or 100. Nary: 300 seems - Bird: I think 300 would be very fair because if they light like what we had the problems with that one down there. 300 feet - the light I don't care unless you've got it pointed straight up like that, any kind is not going to hit somebody 300 feet away. Siddoway: Unless you (inaudible). Nary: And if it's an annexation issue, anyway we're going to have to provide notice within 300 feet anyway". ' Bird: Sure. Nary: I read that yesterday. That seemed to have come up. I know we're going to give notice anyway if their property is within 300 feet anyway we have to give notice. Siddoway: Only if it's a Conditional Use. Nary: Or an annexation. Siddoway: Or annexation or plat. Nary: That's what I'm saying if it's an annexation we have to give notice but most of them it's going to be an annexation (inaudible) they may not care. Siddoway: Yes. Okay. Going back to that area around ,the tracks where people are asking to change from mixed-use to either commercial or industrial. Do you agree that we should disagree with that? . Nary: I think the mixed-use gives them enough flexibility I think it's just more - Siddoway: Especially if we remove the prior (inaudible) unless they are (inaudible) residential I don't see why it would be a problem. Bird: I thought we were going to RZ. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 73 Siddoway: I'm just trying to check these off as we go. To follow down toward the interchange that one - we talked about it briefly but mixed-use there would be good. We were disagreeing with (inaudible) medium density, residential and commercial but it says note staff would agree with mixed-use. Bird: I agree 100 percent. Siddoway: (Inaudible). Nary: That's fine. Siddoway: Okay. Nary: I think there's enough flexibility anymore there's no real fear of necessary (inaudible). I think they're looking at the old definition sign, I want to try to put an industry with houses, and that's not what the definition is anymore. Siddoway: Heading over to Meridian Road south of the freeway we've got the dash line going from Overland Road to Victory that suggests allowing commercial uses along Meridian ROCld'to" Overland and Victory. Kind of the same discussion we just had up above Chinden. "I don't know which property owner it was that requested that. Nary: Quite a few. Bird: Quite a few had requested it that's right but you don't have enough room along there to start with unless you're going to have curb cut every 100 feet. Siddoway: Right. We agreed with you that's why we said that we disagreed with the request that the counter to that is for argument sake was that on the east side there are those existing large lot subdivisions. There are several commercial enterprises that already exist. Nary: There's a nursery and there's a chicken storage. Bird: No, the chicken storage is (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: No, there is. There's (inaudible), the vet clinic and the nursery. Then if you turn up you go to the old gravel pit. Siddoway: we already - we do show the nursery as commercial (inaudible). We're showing the balance (inaudible) low density residential. Bird: I would agree with that because you know the vet clinic and Loria's hay thing is already grandfathered until they try to sell I can't see - Meridian City Council Special Camp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 74 (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: I agree with you Steve. My vote is to keep it like you have. Siddoway: Okay. Nary: Because otherwise we'll end up like we're getting (inaudible). Bird: Just like (inaudible) still. I'm sick and tired of those. Siddoway: The red block and the green block. Nary: Is that the - Siddoway: That's the church. Nary: This is - because tliis is Bear Creek Park correct? Siddoway: Yes that's the quasi public. Nary: This little skinny piece is Kodiak I assume. The little yellow piece. Siddoway: Yes. Nary: Okay. McCandless: Where? Nary: That little tiny, yellow piece that's Kodiak. McCandless: It's not there yet. Siddoway: The red block that is right along Meridian Road. there too falls into the same. It says change medium density residential to commercial. That falls into the same discussion. Moving over the intersection of Victory Road and Locust Grove, we have three separate requests. One to change low density residential to office, one to .change low density residential to medium density residential and one to change medium density residential to' mixed-use. To show you what we cu rrently have done (inaudible). This area we're showing as low density. There's an existing low density residential (inaudible) in here. There are existing - if I remember right low-density houses already existing down here (inaudible). One of them said well we want to make our house into an office. One said well we want to be able to subdivide ours into medium density and this corner down here (inaudible). The 93 Camp Plan shows a mixed-use (inaudible) at that corner. He doesn't like that we changed - Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 75 Bird: That's Eagle and (inaudible)? Siddoway: Locust Grove. Bird: Locust Grove. Siddoway: (Inaudible). We're suggesting that the Neighborhood Center (inaudible) becomes medium residential. We're disagreeing with all three requests and tell us what you think. Bird: I still think we better (inaudible) centers on the corners. Siddoway: I'll keep telling you they are on corners. Bird: Yes they're on corners but I mean- Siddoway: Just not arterial corners. Bird: I mean the intersection corners. I have no problem leaving them like it is. Nary: I -yes"1 guess we've got these Neighborhood Centers, these mixed-use Neighborhood areas there I just don't think those - I think it's one of those things that it's just one persons property and will just be in a dog fight with the other neighbor on something else. Siddoway: Okay. One, two and three. Let's go up first. There's one just north of the freeway at Locust Grove that says change low density residential to commercial. We were disagreeing with that and saying that we should stay low density residential. One, we don't want the land values to sky rocket right when we're trying to get right of way for Bird: That's exactly why that was asked for. Leave it there's no way you're going to have commercial in there. Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) on ACHD. Bird: Well not on that one because we would have once that overpass comes out they're not going to have no frontage. That's all that was brought in there for. Siddoway: And going down Overland Road, we've got one to change mixed-use to commercial. Actually two of them. One at EI Dorado and - Bird: I was going to say that's already done isn't it? Nary: It is and it was mixed-use. There's no reason - we might as well leave it as mixed-use. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17. 2002 Page 76 Siddoway: Just (inaudible) as mixed-use. We got everything down here SO- De Weerd: So a lot faster during (inaudible). Siddoway: -- when we get (inaudible) we start - yes. Nary: Click it right there. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: The red up - just at Eagle Road north of the tracks we've got change mixed- use to industrial. We disagree with just making it industrial. Bird: What do you want - why would you disagree with that when you basically got industrial right there all along and it goes into a shopping center. Siddoway: It is adjacent to existing crossroads subdivision. We wanted - it basically just gives them more flexibility. It doesn't disallow industrial, clean industrial. It would disallow heavy industrial but it would give it this MURG designation (inaudible). It would actuallygivethem more flexibility in ability to do clean industry and - Nary: See to me it looks like - Corrie: I think you should put a center through right in the middle of it. Nary: I mean it would appear to me looking at the map that the piece of property that is on the west side of Eagle Road that has office to the north and industrial to the west and the train tracks to the south makes some sense to have it industrial. Siddoway: We changed that one. Nary: Oh, that one has been changed so it's just- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: Oh, I see. I'm sorry I got it. Siddoway: Just the red one. Nary: Just the little skinny piece. Siddoway: Just the skinny piece. Nary: Okay. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 77 Siddoway: We agreed with that one that you said yes. That one's changed industrial but the one between Crossroads and- De Weerd: So these two little- Siddoway: -- yes over to the school. De Weerd: -- rectangle ones you agree. These two. Siddoway: The red. With the red, we disagree. Bird: That's a pretty good strip through there. Nary: But again, it's kind of like the discussion over here. Do we want to have industrial right adjacent to the subdivisions or do we want to have this mixed-use R-G that is only going to require industrial - or prior to a CU. Siddoway: (Inaudible) adjacent and this one is. Nary: Adjacent and since this was isn't - Siddoway: Adjacent to a residential and a school. Bird: And it's also adjacent to a school. I think we ought to stay consistent. We got to go in and make it R-G. Siddoway: Okay that's what we think. Just below that, we've got one that says high density residential to industrial or mixed-use. De Weerd: I agree. Siddoway: This one could go either way. Here's the issue. If we change - if we do agree to change it we should change more than that because this whole - De Weerd: Yes then we have an island. Siddoway: -- area is shown as high density residential. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: the other areas are pretty much - Nary: They are all those little fingers. Siddoway: We do have high density residential in Touchmark across the street. We've got kind of your higher density apartment (inaudible) things shown at this part of their Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 78 project. We are seeing a potential transit center and our discussions were well we've got to get some people there. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Every one is owned by a different person. Berg: So this is the third, fourth one over? Siddoway: It is the second or third one over so - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: No, there's' one between it, that's Kenny Bowers. Nary: So what you're saying Steve is if we're going to change one we really need to look at that whole area all six of them not just one. But whether to change them from high density residential to either a mixed-use - Siddoway: Our recommendation was for the high density. If we change, the one we need tocharme more than just the one. Nary: And right now, they're all low-density uses correct. Siddoway: Low density residential, pasture - yes. Nary: Okay. Siddoway: The ranch house would be pasture. De Weerd: I agree. Bird: I would too. Siddoway: Okay that's what we're proposing, That's it for the red ones do you want to go through the blue ones that are staff initiated? . De Weerd: Now wait, what do you mean that's what you're proposing it's red? Nary: No, you're proposing high density. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: You want it high density? Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 79 Bird: Yes why not it's next to the railroad tracks and right across the road you've got Touchmark. De Weerd: Yes but have you been over there. Bird: Where? Nary: Basically, we're talking east of R.C. Willey right? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) De Weerd: Isn't there a bunch of telephone poles? Bird: They're down at the corner is the - Nary: Here's the (inaudible) for RC Willey so we have- Bird: -- Idaho Power substation. The big substation but this is a quarter of a mile away from it. That's in Boise (inaudible) substation. (Inaudible)- De Weerd: Oh, this isn't Cloverdale. Nary: No. Bird: Do you know where the Cedars Inn is? De Weerd: Yes. Bird: This is on the- Nary: On the west side of that. Bird: Yes, west side of that. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: It really is across from Touchmark. It really is directly across from Touchmark. Hawkins-Clark: Yes and Touchmark's plan has residential right there. Nary: Right. Siddoway: Are you interested in going through the blue ones? Bird: Yes let's go for it. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 80 Nary: Click it pretty fast. Siddoway: Let's start with (inaudible). Let's go back up to the top by Chinden and work our way around. I felt it was an easy to add a proposed fire station at Linder Road near Chinden. Nary: I think all those schools - I mean all those schools, parks, fire stations I mean I don't care. I don't (inaudible). Bird: Just as long as you make sure that that don't mean that fire station is going on that exact lot. Nary: Well as you recall that was my only concern before was if we're saying these float and we move them one inch we (inaudible) that maybe they don't really float much but as long as we're going to put it on the map, which is what we talked about - De Weerd: You're going to put on there dots can float. Bird: Yes. Siddoway: And we're trying to put them where our best guess is. Right below - Nary: Maybe you need to say estimated or potential or something else not just future park site or future fire station. This is proposed fire station so that's helped me - it may not be but park site - De Weerd: I don't know proposed still might - yes I - Nary: -- or possible fire station. De Weerd: -- proposed is potential (inaudible). Nary: Possible even makes it sound more (inaudible). Bird: Possible is better. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark In this particular case it's there because they have already got the agreement with Marty Goldsmith. Bird: Well- it's not (inaudible) quite yet I don't think. It is looking good. Nary: (Inaudible) you know whether it says possible fire station or possible park site and we're going to (inaudible) them out I don't care. To me all of those are fine. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 81 Bird: Just as long as people don't think that that exact lot is where it's going or guaranteed to go. Siddoway: Okay. De Weerd: What do you mean it's looking good. What do you know? I haven't seen an application, Bird: For what? De Weerd: For (inaudible) fire station. Bird: Oh no, (inaudible). Siddoway: Just below it we've got delete the Neighborhood Centers we kind of already talked about this. It's in response to the fact that we've already designated the corner commercial. It's part of the Bridgetower application. Nary: I think any of those - again, maybe just to (inaudible). Any of those that are already because we've approved something else do you think that's (inaudible). We don't need to - I mean if we've already approved that project- Hawkins-Clark: Any of the public facility stuff that either the park's plan or the fire station - Nary: And a lot of them fall under that. Any of them can just fall under - we've already would be complying with what's approved. Siddoway: I'll need to go through them one by one just to make sure we hit them but we can just weed through. The one just beside that change medium density and low to commercial for the Bridgetower approval. The one below that is for the Bridgetower approval. In fact, most of that other ones in that section between McMillan and Ustick, Ten Mile to Linder changes in relation to the Bridgetower approval. Nary: I think all of those on the east side of Ten Mile are, aren't they? Siddoway: Pretty much. Nary: All those four blocks. Siddoway: We already said we're taking Greenland so Greenland was okay. We already did the buffer around the Wastewater Treatment Plant. Just one sideline on that. I wrote down for uses - I'm going to come back with some proposed language for what that new mixed-use, that district buffer should be. I have done office, I have down flex and I've (inaudible) can accommodate existing residential uses but not expanding them. That's it. There was a question about small commercial but I thought that was Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 82 pretty much shut down. That's not a good idea. It's for retail. I assume there could be some like uses, mini storages for example or I mentioned contractor's yards but Tammy didn't like that. Anyway, things that are not intensively traffic storage related I could see maybe going there. Nary: Well whatever - I don't know if there's other things in the use tables - to me what the number one thing that you keep hearing about anything around the treatment plant is you don't' want a use that has long term people there. Whether it's a school, whether it's - I mean the offices in the past have been something - I mean there are - I mean I can think of some retail things that probably wouldn't matter like a carwash. Because you're there in and out, it's not a big deal. Those are the kind of uses that wouldn't matter. I don't know if there's things in the use table that you might look through and say well this is something that's an in and out type of thing but I wouldn't necessarily want to have (inaudible). Siddoway: Do you want me to try and - Bird: I don't think you would want to put a restaurant out here and have a (inaudible). (Inaudible disclJssion amongst council) Siddoway: I can go through that schedule of use, and try and pullout those types of uses. Bird: Yes. Nary: Yes things that are- De Weerd: I bet you couldn't tell (inaudible). Siddoway: Then you guys can have your line item veto. Moving down to the intersection of Cherry Lane and Ten Mile. Nary: That's the St. AI's one. It's already approved right . Bird: That's St. AI's that's already approved. Siddoway: Right so that's in response to that. the one below it is not though. Change quasi public to mixed-use. I think you just got lumped under quasi public as if it were part of the St. AI's but it's not. Nary: That's the church isn't it? Siddoway: Part of it is church and part of it is vacant. There's actually quite a bit of property there that has the potential to redevelop. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting . April 17, 2002 Page 83 Bird: That doesn't get Irma Atkinson? Does that pull up quite as far. It doesn't go down to her does it? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: the church could be pulled out and left as mixed-use but we just thought maybe just taking that block. Certainly, a church is allowed in mixed-use but it would allow it for redevelopment infill a little and be friendly for that. De Weerd: And maybe get some sidewalks. Bird: Yes get some sidewalks. Nary: And a frontage road. (Inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) and going back to the consistency thing, all of the churches have quasi public on the map. Bird: Yes. Hawkins-Clark: So we probably should stay consistent. We're going to call it what it is. So (inaudible) church itself. Nary: the church itself would be quasi public but the remainder would be - Siddoway: Church equals quasi and remainder - okay got it. Shifting east along Cherry Lane, we've got one on the north side that says change medium density residential to office. That is also in response to existing approved office uses. McCandless: Is that where the library is? Siddoway: it's right next to the library. Bird: Right next to it. Siddoway: The library is just left of that. Nary: The library is the big wide space. It's that little - Siddoway: It's the councilman center. Bird: Yes it's between there and the Luther Church. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeling April 17,2002 Page 84 Siddoway: And the approved office site for Gambin's rezone is what that (inaudible). Just down below that we've go add these parcels to the proposed old town designation. What that is, is we've got - right now the old town zone is something like this. We're proposing to make old town follow the boundaries of the historic town plat. In talking with Lila Hill that area should have been included. Nary: So that basically is what Meridian Elementary- Siddoway: Meridian Elementary and the small residential lots that go around it. One developer has been in asking about doing a town house type project on some of those lots. We told him he can't because it was zoned R-4 but if this goes through it would be old town and might be possible. Bird: that right there? Siddoway: Yes. Bird: That's right next to your church Cherie. Siddoway: Meridian Elementary. Bird: No Meridian Elementary is here in the corner. McCandless: No, that's on 8lh Street. That's what you're talking about. Siddoway: That is Meridian Elementary. Bird: Oh, Meridian Elementary that's right okay I'm way off. Nary: This is that little strip that goes around. Bird: I know I was way off. McCandless: You live right across the street. Bird: Yes [live right across the street. Nary: This is your dad's house Will isn't it? This is Pine - or this is Pine right here, Berg: Washington. Nary: Or Washington so these are the houses that abut Washington and the ones that run behind the school. Bird: Yes okay. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 85 Nary: I'm for it. Bird: Yes. Berg: Is it abutting up to that block (inaudible)? Bird: Meridian Road yes it is. Siddoway: It includes the houses on the west side. The ones that are up against the school. Nary: The ones that are on the north of the school and the west of the school. You just make them an old town once you get (inaudible). Bird: That's no problem. Because it is old town. Siddoway: Yes pretty much. (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Siddoway: Do they have the same kinds of small lot houses? Nary: Oh, they all do. Bird: They all do. Nary: But if Lila said that's where it goes then she's probably right. De Weerd: Yes. Bird: Don't argue with her. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Just below that we've got our favorite street along Broadway that's zoned light industrial. On the current map, we have a mish-mash of land uses shown, medium density residentials, and quasi public. This one shows quasi public but was probably meant to be industrial. Trying to respond to the existing- Nary: Is that the senior center? Siddoway: What? Nary: Is thatthe senior center. Siddoway: No. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 86 Bird: It's the cement mix down there where - Siddoway: It's west of Fourth Street isn't it? Bird: Yes. Siddoway: So it's in old town. East of Fourth street. So we're showing changing that mish-mash of uses that show up on there, to mixed-use and it shows up on here as MUC. The only potential glitch there, is that- De Weerd: Do we get a lot of calls on that? Siddoway: We do get a lot of calls, yes. (Inaudible) Siddoway: If someone wa'nted to re-zone to residential this would allow that because it would be mixed-use and we have people are residential having a hard selling their properties. They'od be better off if they were zoned residential if they want to remain residential. HaVing the mixed-use designation on the comp plan would allow for different types of zoning, including residential. Bird: It's horrible to sell a place down there just like Tammy said earlier. Corrie: If your house burns down, you can't build. It's an industrial area. Bird: That's right. Corrie: You can't build it back. Bird: You can't replace it. Siddoway: Right, the only glitch I'm seeing right now th.at I just thought of was, MUC doesn't allow for industrial uses and we do have some there. So if we want to try and accommodate those that are there, we want to change that or do we just want to say, we really don't want industry there, they're grandfathered but when they stop working, they need to go. Nary: Although it is right by the railroad tracks I don't know right there where the rest of it is residential you won't really have -- (Inaudible) Bird: Tammy, there is some businesses in the houses there but, I'm like him, why don't we let othem grandfather because, really and truthfully, that does not have good access Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 87 for vehicles to get in, in industrial vehicles, trucks, big trucks and stuff to get in and out. They're grandfathered -- Siddoway: They have industrial zoning so we can't- Bird: They're grandfathered anyway so we could change this to medium residential. People could resell their houses when they needed to or houses. If they sell the cement deal or the plumbing thing or something, it's done. De Weerd: (Inaudible). Siddoway: There's a lot of higher density across the street on the other side of Broadway. So that's why we went with the MUC, which calls up the R-15 basically, which the other side is largely zoned R-15. Hawkins-Clark: What I'm hearing though, is that people are agreeing with that as a residential block. Broadway there is so wide you can do the mixed-use. Bird: They're already grandfathered. De Weerd: Yes, "but if they sell, they're not going to sell to residential. Siddoway: And they wouldn't have to. Bird: They wouldn't have to Tammy. Siddoway: Because they have the zoning. It's not just a comp plan issue here. They already have existing zoning. Bird: They're grandfathered with their zoning. Siddoway: It's not even grandfathered. The grandfather usually refers to non- conforming use that exists in the zone. - (I naudible) Bird: They're not grandfathered. That would not affect them at all. Corrie: (inaudible). Siddoway: Now showing it residential on here wouldn't really create a problem for the existing industrial businesses that are zoned industrial but it would definitely support people who wanted to rezone. I don't know if the city wants to take on a rezone of that area on their own but that's been talked about too. De Weerd: It also allows for lot grants coming in cleaning it up as (inaudible) face lifting Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 86 Siddoway: If the city council is serious about the fact that that really should be a residential street, you could call it residential, zone it residential and then those existing industrial uses are grandfathered non-conforming uses. (I naudible) Bird: That's just - yes just do what you're proposing. I don't want to take -- Siddoway: You don't want to take away the zoning. Bird: -- I don't want to take their zoning away. But I want residential down there. Down the existing. Siddoway: If people want to rezone a residential, you want to allow that. Bird: Yes, I want to allow t,hat. Siddoway: Okay. Hawkins-Clark: 'So really, we're changing our recommendation from mixed-use to a medium density residential. Siddoway: No-- Nary: No mixed-use. Siddoway: MUC. Hawkins-Clark: But if we want it residential, which was already said, let's call it residential. Nary: Well, we didn't want to change the existing zoning for the other people (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Bird: So that's what I said originally. They're grandfathered in as medium residential- (Inaudible) Siddoway: I'm just saying if we were serious, we could, it's kind of a separate thing, but we could do this and actually rezone the property- Bird: Let's just go medium. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 89 Siddoway: Now, for discussion sake, if we go medium density residential, that's three eight. There a lot of main residential interest there is in higher density than that. More towards the- Hawkins-Clark: Not with this new footnote. Because the new footnote, even though it says medium density residential, we're saying they can (inaudible)- (Inaudible) Siddoway: Just like we were saying, the other side of the street is largely R-15. Bird: That's right. Siddoway: If won't let it go R4-R8, then- Nary: We'll do it R8 even under what Tammy had suggested, just moving up one zone, they cou Id still go - Siddoway: Sure. Bird: But you know really-- Siddoway: Show it as medium and allow the footnote to do its thing. Bird: You get to about six, though, the north side of Broadway isn't the R-15. Siddoway: You're right. Bird: It's basically the - Nary: Single family home. Bird: -- the single-family home. Siddoway: That's right It changes more- Bird: Towards the far end of it. Across from the industrial. Siddoway: Okay. We'll do it, not as MUC, but medium density residential. (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Siddoway: Okay. Heading left, we've got the deleted neighborhood center. We already talked about that. Everyone was in agreement there. Shifting further, along Franklin, to the west, we've got two side by side. These are both in response to deleting the neighborhood center. We've kind of already talked about that. So yes. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 90 Heading south, down at the very bottom, we're showing deleting the neighborhood center there because we're making a corner all mixed-use. Bird: That's right I agree with that. Siddoway: Okay, we have a park location- Nary: Can we get that other corner-a piece of the corner in our impact area now we traded - Siddoway: Shift the park, add a fire station, over along Eagle road, we've got a park. We have just above that another impact area I think. De Weerd: I think Steve's on a roll. Siddoway: I'm just moving. Bird: Let's get this thing done. Siddoway:We've got -- we're suggesting to remove this area as well from area of impact. It's an existing built out subdivision that has Boise city water and sewer. Pretty good argument anyway. Nary: Sure don't seem to have a whole lot of leeway there (inaudible)- Bird: By golly, we'll turn off their water and sewer, won't we? (I naud ible) De Weerd: What do you think Gary? Do you think we could get city services down there? Bird: How soon can you get in there so they force annex them. Siddoway: Pretty soon if we can put some (inaudible) Corrie: I think that guy that we turned his water off today in my office lives there: McCandless: you had a bad day. Corrie: I did. Siddoway: Okay, heading north we've got Montview, Franklin, and Eagle. Change the commercial designation that was recommended by P&Z, back to mixed-use. This was a staff recommendation. It's shown as MURG so it's only those that are in areas within 30.0 feet of existing residential would require CU but we actually thought it would give Meridian City Council Special Camp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 91 them more flexibility to do more uses than just commercial. We were suggesting the MURG because it had the most uses and is right at a major intersection of Franklin and Eagle. Bird: I think it ought to be strictly commercial. Nary: I think this is one of those, that there was such an intense amount of votes that really wanted that. That unless we want to rehear all 27 of those people come back here and tell us the same thing again, I'd say leave it commercial. That's what they wanted, that's what we made it. It's not going to hurt the city to leave it that way. Siddoway: One of the main reasons for it was when it was requiring a CU, because this would be the only - the recommendation from P&Z was commercial with the requirement for a mixed-use - or a requirement for a CUP. Show it -- the recommendation was show commercial with condition that it requires a CUP. Which we really didn't see really much difference. Since we'd be the only place where there would be a Conditional Use Permit, automatically required that was commercial if 10 years down the road, who's "going to track that. He is going to remember that it required a CUP. That was the- Nary: That was the compromise I think for the staff's request of having that because it was by Touchmark. The residents just wanted commercial. They didn't want a CUP. Siddoway: Actually, they didn't have a problem with the CUP. Nary: Right but originally they didn't want that. They just wanted commercial. And we were trying to find a compromise. Bird: Let's just leave it commercial. Hawkins-Clark: We preferred to take the P&Z recommendation to have a CU then Siddoway: and just make it commercial. Hawkins-Clark: Just make it straight without a CU. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: (Inaudible) that requires a CUP on commercial. Hawkins-Clark: It's going to have to be annexed so we do have the arm there. De Weerd: With all the transportation issues around there, I think that ACHD will- Corrie: What about that letter tonight that they requested commercial. Next to (inaudible) Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 92 Hawkins-Clark: Yes. That's right. This was the - on Overland and Eagle road - the southeast corner, next to what is now Silverstone. They have 80 acres. Bird: That's the -- I know which place it is. Siddoway: There (inaudible) to be commercial so that they don't get - I don't see a problem with it staying as is because we're not saying that a project like Jabil couldn't go on there. This wouldn't preclude something like that. It would have under the original definition that required these two uses and residential strongly encouraged. As the definition for this zone currently stands-- *** End Of Side Five *** (Inaudible discussion amongst council) Siddoway: I think as it's Gurrently shown, it gives them even more flexibility to respond to the market, and it doesn't preclude what you want to do. Do you agree, Brad that whoever is sho~ing mixed-use doesn't preclude what they want to do? Hawkins-Clark: Yes, I agree. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Okay we've only got a couple more to do. Nary: Is it just the pathway now and the impact area the same. Siddoway: And the medium density residential to mixed-use at Locust Grove and Franklin. That's probably the other one that needs some discussion. Bird: Locust Grove and Franklin? Siddoway: Locust Grove and Franklin. Actually, we have - this is colored blue as a staff recommendation. We actually did have one of the property owners request her own lot for this. We actually came in and applied it to the entire block. We've got --this is the area. De Weerd: Isn't that what we just extended there - Bird: Yes. Siddoway: We've got an existing cobblestone apartment complex here. The property owner is right below here saw that this was being changed to mixed-use and asked if she could and kind of agreed it didn't make sense to have this as mixed-use, office, commercial, church, I think is going to be part of it. Industrial existing over here, and to Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17. 2002 Page 93 require this to remain as residential with (inaudible) office here. We've got this little block of medium density residential. By making that mixed-use, we allow it to either remain residential as it is but we also allow it to- Bird: That's Smith's and Robertson and all that? (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That's got to be. Bob Smith and Reese and McMillan and all those guys. Siddoway: It would allow three development - (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: Would that be mixed-use C or mixed-use (inaudible) Siddoway: It would be MUC. Nary: It seems to makes sense with all the surrounding pieces. That seems reasonable. Siddoway: Okay. Then we've got the remove the pathway. We were showing a pathway based on the park comp plan that followed the Jackson Drain. There's some debate over whether it's Jackson Drain or Settler's. I guess it is Settler's but they actually show Settler's going up to the anyway -- This is the pathway right here. This was initially - this section was asked to be removed by Elixir, the architect is Paul Clayton. Cherie and Dave took a look at it, agreed, and thought where is this going to go over here. This is all piped already from here-we thought just take us down, stuff it into this pathway that's shown along the railroad and just delete that. We really had two parallel pathways just right close to one another here anyway. We'll just connect that one in and let that one get covered. Hawkins-Clark: They'll be able to (inaudible) (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: That pathway did cut through some property that was just unbelievable: It cut right in the mipdle of a piece of ground of a lot. Hawkins-Clark: There's about 15 places like that actually that the parks plan has cutting through things (inaudible) like crossing the freeway-- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: I think that's it. The other three are a park site, a fire station, and the addition to the impact area that we already talked about. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 94 Bird: I guess we know what we need to change now. Siddoway: I've got one other based on this and that is the definition for residential densities on here. These give a range of like three to eight, three to 15, and three to 40 units per acre. Last week -- two weeks ago, when we met, we were giving the text related to these neighborhood center areas. We brought up the question of whether we should allow the range of three to eight or have it be a minimum of eight, which is what the original proposal was. It was decided, as part of the text, that is should be a minimum of eight. We've got our new footnote now so we can consider other things but I'm wondering if you want me to change this or add a footnote to this, that if it's an NC, it's a neighborhood center, three isn't the upper limit, three is the lower limit. We've got kind of two competing ideas here about what densities should be. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: This one says,it's a maximum. The other one says it's a minimum. Nary: So we n~ed to pick one. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: From a transit standpoint a compass has recommended six as a bare minimum in their research to where you can get a good center to work with future lots. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: So I will need to change that on here, De Weerd: So what are you changing? Siddoway: Residential densities. Instead of -- If it's an NC, a neighborhood center then the (inaudible). Nary: What I think we have to have from the public -- I have that because that is the recommended (inaudible) but we have to have this proposed map. How long would it take to have that proposed map? Because we made a lot of changes and didn't 'make a lot of changes and we've scheduled a hearing in two weeks and we've advertised that as a hearing. What I'm concerned with is that we may have --I guess this is what I'd like. I'd like to see us have a hearing that we could at least advertise as our final hearing. So that way people know, now or never, show up and tell us what you think. So at least they'd have some (inaudible) knowledge. I don't know in two weeks, if that's very fair to make a lot of changes and people may not see it. If we could have the maps in City Hall and advertise that as well, that there are maps available for viewing for the next couple of weeks and then we play it by ear on the next hearing as to whether or not Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 95 we think another one is really fair. We could do that. I just wonder how long that would take. Siddoway: It's going to take - in terms of actual work, it's a good day. If it's already scheduled, I'd try to have it a week before by next Wednesday. I could certainly have it by the end of the week on Friday so it's done beforehand. I'll shoot for Wednesday but promise Friday. Nary: I don't know what the rest of the Council thinks. I just think we've made a lot of significant changes and didn't make some. I do want to give people a fair opportunity to have looked at that and give us some input and to be honest it's not a criticism of you guys. I recognize you only have so much time to do stuff but if we put a map out in City Hall on Friday and we have a hearing on Wednesday, most people are going to see it on Wednesday. They're not going to see it before that. They're going to see it when they show up. We need to decide on the ih if we need to have one more to make sure it's clearly - we can advertise it as the final hearing. That way people know this is your chance. Come and tell us, what you want. I don't know (inaudible) what you folks think. We may get a lot of input because of what we didn't change and what we did. Bird: I thinkwe.'ve done a significant change on the map and I think, like Bill says, people need to see that. I think at that point we could decide on the ih if people have done it. i hope we don't have to have another one but if we don't feel the public has been covered then we're just going to have to have another one. De Weerd: I think the people who are following it and know that a definite decision has not been made on their property or the area that they were following (inaudible) Nary: I (inaudible) end up with a few letters from people saying I can't get there on the ih, I didn't realize you had changed this" those kinds of letters. Berg: You keep saying the ih, it's the 1st. Nary: Oh, I'm sorry. Berg: We continue to the 1st, which was Wednesday (inaudible) and w~itten testimony is supposed to be in by the 25th. (Inaudible dis.cussion amongst Council) Siddoway: (Inaudible) new ones come in lately. Nary: Which is really the 1st day though that the public might see all of these particular map changes that we've made to this day. We may need to look at that on the 1 st and say we need one more opportunity for folks to have a chance to look at that map, look at these footnote changes, look at these issues, those things at least give us some time and hopefully it's not a lengthy one. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 96 Hawkins-Clark: We'll try to get the word out that they're available Wednesday, if it is Wednesday, for sure. Post them at the library, City Hall, and our office where they've always been. Siddoway: Do you feel the need to have the text amendments that we decided on last time made and done too? Bird: It would be nice but I don't think it's as necessary as the map. De Weerd: I don't think all that much has changed. Bird: I don't either. I don't think- (I naudible discussion amongst Council) Bird: We have to have it l:;Iy the 1st. Nary: Because I don't think we can move to approve it without actually having one. Text ones is pretty simple. Hawkins-Clark: The biggest thing will be the updated census numbers. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: Well, I think we could make a motion to put those in. We're still going to have work to do to finalize everything. (Inaudible) next week- (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Nary: When we have the maps. Let's not have that blue, green, purple map anymore. What we did tonight -- What has been approved by P&Z is that they have to be received at (inaudible). The mixed-use centers is just a definition, it's not different. It just explains what MUM, MURC- Siddoway: I can even incorporate that onto the same map if you want to? Nary: That W9uld be fine. It's hard for people to point to three different maps - . . Siddoway: Just put it on one map. If you like the designations of the three breakdowns, it will just become three on the map. (Inaudible discussion amongst Council) Siddoway: All right. Good job. Meridian City Council Special Comp Plan Meeting April 17, 2002 Page 97 Corrie: I'll enter in a motion to adjourn if everybody's through. Bird: Seconded. Corrie: All in favor say Aye. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: CJ S- /;;2/ /::2-002- DATE ATTESTED: \\\\\111111111/ 111\ - M I111 \\II,J O\- ;{3n..,... II"" \ A-.. j'(.'I .- ,\\ ,,, --~>/4-::;" ....~ (j o,?>POA..q " -.1/ ~ ~ ~v 'A -:;. ~ ~ ~O - ~ f!.0,b~ ~ % K i:tE1U.l - ~ ;-. 7(:, &:; -;:'.-r % ,CD 0 :; ~ '0 '-.: .sr 1S1 . . ';<: :2 .-/ ~ ~""~ '" "/ '.... ~,. ...... ///I/II~OU\!-:"{ , '\ 11\1\" . '. ~ .. ~~,q\\\\\