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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995 06-27 MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING JUNE 27. 1995 The Special meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order by Mayor Grant Kingsford at 6:30 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT: Walt Morrow, Bob Corrie, Ron Tolsma: MEMBERS ABSENT: Max Yerrington: OTHER PRESENT: Will Berg, Wayne Crookston, Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Patsy Fedrizzi, Jennifer Lovan, Dick and Maxine Palmer, Mark Freeman, Irene Couchfield, Wally Lovan, Doris and Jim Grant, Tom Link, Connie Larson, Norman Larson, Mike Lesh, Art Finnel, William Kennedy, Devain Gregin, Dale Ryan, W.C. Melas, Harland Forstner, Darlene Tharsted, Iris Carpenter, Don Calysenter, Frances Margulieux, Jenie Van Honten, Richard Van Honten, Doug Cambpell, Gerry Sweet, Ted Hayes, Jim and Virginia Johnson, Robert Morrison, Vernon Croft, Ripk and Laree Lovan, Bob Carr, Bert Meyers, Laverne James, Rueben Flores, Larry Sorstad, Bob Vanholt, John Thompson Fitzgerald, Fred Townsend, Joan Hill, Marv Bodine: Kingsford: Notice has dully been given for this public meeting. It has been posted at 3 sites in town as well as the golf course since it specifically dealt with golf course issues. I will read that notice, the purpose of the meeting is for the City to give information to the public on the Cherry Lane Golf Course, show the possible plan and layout of the back-nine holes and to receive public comment on the golf course operation and the back-nine; the meeting shall be conducted prior to a planning session of the Meridian City Council at 7:30 P.M. on the above date. Interested people are invited, and requested, to come to the meeting, receive information, and to give their input. On the easel over there we have the basic layout for the new nine holes of golf. The blue is water, those of you that are golfers will take that into account. I know I have lamented over it at some length. At the top is a rendering of a proposed club house, the left of that is the basic dimensions and layout of that club house. Folks are welcome to look at that after the meeting and through the meeting and so forth. I just though that I might give a brief history and hope that it is accurate, I have been around for most of it but my memory might fail me a little bit. A little history of Cherry Lane Golf Course since its inception and through today. Somewhere in the early 701s the farmers out there, Kent Barney, Jim Fuller and not in that order necessarily, proposed a golf course that would be a municipal golf course in conjunction with a subdivision. The Chamber of Commerce at that time was involved in that and subsequently through a period of a few years that parcel of land was annexed and zoned to the City of Meridian and plans were made for that golf course. About 1975 as best I can determine that annexation and zoning took place. About 1976-77 early the project was sold to a Seattle Development firm called Leavitt New Pacific and they bought the parcel that is currently Cherry Lane Village and the first nine holes of golf. They employed then a developer Bob Baldock who has done several golf courses including Eagle Hills, excuse me the second nine at Eagle Hills and others to build a golf course. The subdivision was laid out by JUS Engineers specifically Jean Wright and Marilyn Omstead at that time. The Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 2 rest of the golf course area that you see there was optioned, let me back up on that. There is a small portion in the lower right corner that was not, it was optioned also by Leavitt New Pacific and they had intended, they conveyed to the City that they intended to sell the second nine and probably within 2 to 3 years. As we all remember then they started building that in 1977-78 the economy kind of went into the toilet and they didn't exercise the options for that back nine. It reverted back then to Mr. Barney and Me Fuller. The City then took over the golf course in the fall of 1978 after the third cutting of the grass the agreement was when it was annexed and zoned was that it had to be a municipally owned public golf course maintained to USGA standards. Then we as a City for some reason or another I thought it was a good idea to be in politics I analyzed myself a few times for that, but I had just gotten elected to Council and was placed on the golf committee in the fall of 1977. The golf committee was instrumental in trying to design and work with the developer and the City in the operation of the golf course. The budget year 1977 from the first of October fiscal year runs October 1 st to September 30, the fiscal year budget for 1977-78 City of Meridian budgeted $60,000 for operation of the golf course and the phone rang off the hook. Mayor Storey at that time came to the golf committee at that time and said we are not running a golf course. I have heard enough from the public we are not going to operate a golf course. So the golf committee went out and tried to find people that would lease, take over operation of the golf course. We were unsuccessful, Wally Lovan was on the golf committee at that time, I believe if memory serves me correctly he chaired that committee. After being unsuccessful Wally came to the committee and then later the Council and said I will run if that is what it takes to have it work. So he took over operation of that then in the fall of 1978, the city has not spent any money, has not paid any bills on the golf course since its inception. The lease has been a matter of some issue, the lease calls for no payment whatsoever to date. It is a lease that when the next nine is completed calls for a $6,000 annual payment. I have heard from a number of sources that is not a good lease. The proprietor has offered to build the club house that you see there, the rough value of that club house is somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000. In addition he will have to put up his maintenance sheds, he asked me to do that or asked the City to do that and I said that is your problem. He has agreed to, it is not in writing or anything in the lease, he has agreed to make those improvements to the golf course. Additionally through the course of this lease to date he has made all the lease hold improvements out there. There have been several tee boxes added, rest room facility, a building over the pumps by the lake. A good deal of the sprinkler system has been replaced, all of the equipment that is out there is Cherry Lane Rec's which is Wally Lovan and family. When we receive bills on that such as irrigation water and so on we just give them to Wally and he pays them. So that is where we are at with the lease it is a 20 year lease with a 25 year renewable, pardon me it is a 30 year lease with a 25 year renewable a 55 year lease. A little over 37 years remains on that. So with that I guess we would welcome your input. As indicated this is a meeting from 6:30 to 7:30 so we have another Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 3 meeting at 7:30 we would like to follow that schedule as nearly as possible. Anyone like to offer comments or testimony to the Council, we will not swear you in I suppose. But we would like you to tell the truth if you do come up. Anyone at all? Flores: Mayor and Councilmen my name is Ruben Flores and I have lived here in Meridian for quite some time, I came to Meridian in 1973. I remember the golf course when it came to be and it was as far as I was concerned it was a very ratty golf course. This course now has come to a top grade golf course for nine holes. It is in the best condition that I have ever seen it. There has been a lot of money put into it, trees, trees cost money, the fairways, the sand traps, tee boxes. It is, Mr. Lovan has employed me part time and I enjoy working for the man. He has done, to me, as far as I am concerned he has done a tremendous job with this golf course. I would like to see the eighteen holes come about. They have been talking about it for many years and I would like to see it happen. Mr. Lovan has done a great job in bringing this golf course to be. Meyers: I am Burt Meyers, I was on the original committee by the way too. I think that the other nine holes is good, what is going to happen now. I have a question, when do you start digging dirt? Kingsford: We plan to have a ground breaking and invite the Chamber of Commerce out there on the 11 th of July. The Chamber meeting will take place at the new Cherry Lane Golf Course and inviting everyone to come out and I thought this up myself. The ground breaking will not be with golden shovels it will be golf clubs and we will all take a big divot. Meyers: That is great, I think that is good, I didn't know when you are going to start this thing. The club house looks like it might be okay. (Inaudible) Kingsford: The holes that you see laid out there, (inaudible) currently has the deed to. There is still a portion in the extreme lower left corner that we have not agreed to deed conditions but we have that deed at City Hall. It is a small portion of the part that is controlled by Steiner Development now that legal description is drawn and that is all set but we do not have that deed yet. The bulk of it we do. Now the City hopes to and I am confident that we can do it, (inaudible) funding (inaudible). We budgeted in this year's budget for those of you that looked at the budget $350,000 that will all be repaid and we plan to borrow that from the sewer and water enterprise account and pay that back with building permit fees that both developers have agreed to assess or have assessed at building permit times when each of these lots develops around the golf course. And that includes the higher density units for each unit there will be a development fee. Currently Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 4 what we are looking at is a (inaudible) $650.00 fee on each lot or unit. Additionally then we hope to raise some funds and get some in kind donations and so forth. Additionally those people and I see several of you in here that live in that area, Cherry Lane Village No.3, 4 and 5, Gary is that right that Paul White has done. They voluntarily have assessed a $100 a lot fee to the improvement of the second nine as welL Likewise the first phase of Golfview Estates and so we have been generating capital for those improvements. In difference to what happened on the front nine, yes the City will be doing it. The front nine was done by a developer and deeded to the City at no cost to the City. The Council has not agreed to nor have I certainly encouraged them to spend any City money on the golf course. I was around when we budgeted $60,000 and that appeared in the paper and I don't want it out there with my neck on the chopping block again, it taught me a lesson. I learned slow but I learned real good. Does that answer your question? (Inaudible) Kingsford: 1 have seen a variety of estimates, you can go to the golf foundation and they will tell you it will cost anywhere from $50,000 to $200,000 a hole to build. I don't know in what area you are talking about. I think we all recognize that if you are trying to do the new eighteen or 27 holes at Nampa you are talking about being on hillsides and working in gravel and a variety of things. Different land has different costs and different opportunities. It is basically flat and not particularly good soil. And as you look at that too I think you can try to gage your budget on what kind of donations and what kind we get. If we don't we a whole lot of participation (inaudible) we will probably not have that much water out there it might not have quite as much roll to it but we can build a golf course for what we budgeted. (Inaudible) Kingsford: With a lot of volunteer labor yes. I am not going to contract that out and get that done, absolutely you are right. Would you mind everyone if you would please so that we have it on the tape. Some people like to come in and listen to tapes. If you wouldn't mind coming up so we have you on tape please. Freeman: The only thing, (inaudible) taking or collecting on these lots that isn't going to happen overnight. What kind of a financial situation have you got to set up to take care of this? Kingsford: What happens is like I say we will loan that from the enterprise account at the same rate we would be able to get from a bank which we are allowed to do and each year Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 5 then those fees will go up commensurable to whatever the bank rates have gone up for that year. So that this year if it starts at $650.00 and let's say that it is 6% that we can get from a bank then those go up 6% and will until the loan is repaid. Freeman: In other words you are going to just borrow money from the City organizations and finance this but $350,000 doesn't sound like enough money for a nine hole golf course. Kingsford: Weill would agree, if you will go over and check with Payette they did theirs for substantially less than that, their new nine. It just depends on how much participation. (Inaudible) Kingsford: Well time flies when you are having fun. I think I have played in their best ball every year since they went to 18 and I believe that is 7 years. Freeman: I hate the throw my hand up here but do you have any idea Vv'hat other cities, like other cities that own courses (inaudible) from the leasing of the operation (inaudible). Kingsford: I couldn't really say that I do Mark, the City of McCall for example I have some knowledge of that one. I worked with Mr. John Dripps one year on his lease, there are totally different operations everywhere you go. For example up there the City takes care of all the maintenance on the course. The guy gets his cart rentals and club house and those kinds of things. It is difficult to compare apples with apples when you start looking at those I guess. One thing that I think I would say about that regardless of how much the City makes on a golf course I think very clearly it ought to all be put back in the golf course in either one of two ways, either the fees should be reduced at the golf course it should go for improvements, you shouldn't take money from the golfers to subsidize the general public in my judgement. We don't take sewer and water fees and can't to do other governmental services and I don't think you should mix golf course money with other services. Freeman: I am more interested, maybe you are the wrong person to ask, I understand that Cherry Lane Recreation has done a lot of work on the course and made a lot of improvements to improve it (inaudible) whether this is a good lease or a bad lease. It looks to me like it is a real good lease for Cherry Lane Recreation a real good lease. I looked at the lease and it looked to me like there is possibly a $12,000 (inaudible) that type of income makes sense (inaudible). Kingsford: Well, that lease money for example the first let me think, it was five years of that Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 6 is budgeting to the development of (inaudible). Freeman: If that is the case Mayor than why is the City in the (inaudible) public gets? Kingsford: Well, I would just respond to you what has the City put into it? The public gets a place to play golf and we have a deed to the city. We have spent no money, we plan to spend no money. Freeman: (Inaudible) second nine you have to do whatever it takes to build a course. So there is city money riding on that (inaudible) Kingsford: We will get it back from the development fees not the sewer fees don't be mixing those. Freeman: I was just trying to get a sense because (inaudible) concerned. I am a golfer, I live in Cherry Lane I would like more than 18 holes out there to play golf on. Don't get me wrong I am not opposed to it (inaudible) great, but Kingsford: You are also an attorney there is a lease existing what you would do with it if you represented Cherry Lane that is what I would ask you in return? Freeman: I am not asking you to renegotiate the lease I want to know if it sounds to me like we are going to take some city money and use it to (inaudible) great deal for Cherry Lane Rec I think it is better than and the city gets back $6,000 a year and is that comparable to what happens in other municipalities. I guess that is, I don't have a clue what happens in other cities. At least (inaudible) Kingsford: They do some of both. Croft: I am Vernon Croft and I do live along the golf course at Cherry Lane. You had mentioned earlier that there is no written agreement for Mr. Lovan to build a club house, why don't you get that in writing? Kingsford: I think we will. Croft: When the back nine is built making it an 18 hole golf course based on the other municipal golf courses in the valley $6,000 a year for Mr. Lovan to be paying for this even though he builds the club house the City is getting taken along with the taxpayers. Basically reviewing the contract through the City and the lessee I think it is a horrendous contract. I know something about contracts because the public of this city this being a Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 7 public golf course they are out in left field. They are getting nothing as being tax payers of the City. All of us that live in Cherry Lane I know on Cherry Lane 3, 4 and 5 our property values were escalated based on that golf course. That is right from Ada County Assessors office. We are paying a higher rate of tax based on that golf course and in other words the taxpayers out there are subsidizing your golf course. I don't feel that is fair that a business can come in here and work a 55 year contract with the limitations of renegotiation being what they are. I think it should be publicized to the public of what this contract is now and you get some public feedback and if whatever it takes renegotiate this contract at the completion of the back nine and the club house. This $6,000 a year is beans as far as paying for an 18 hole golf course. Caldwell gets and excess of $300,000 for Purple Sage, it is an 18 hole course. Kingsford: (Inaudible) Croft: Nampa it is 6% off the gross and they are doing wonderful things with the money they are getting over there. The inception of golf has grown tremendously back in 1978 when the Mayor of the City then wanted nothing to do with the golf course. Mr. Lovan being on the golf committee was in a prime position to take over something like this. I think this thing should be renegotiated if need be put it out to public bid. Get it off the public, right now it smells, it really smells. Thank you Kingsford: Anyone else? Sorsted: Mr. Mayor, my name is Larry Sorsted and I am also a taxpayer in Meridian. I don't live on the golf course but I would like to echo your comment in terms of what the city's responsibility to its citizens in terms of some of the recreational things and amenities. While you can debate on what the lease is or should or should not be the fact of the matter is that by having a golf course, by having it well managed everybody in the City, golfers and non-golfers benefit. There are a lot of people that come out there and play that are welcome at all levels that don't reside in Meridian. Who also are spending money in Meridian both at the golf course and other things. I think the whole point of it is its everybody is benefiting from it. The more people that squabble and say I want bigger piece of this pie or I want this pie divided up the more divisiveness there is the longer it is going to take to get developed. The longer it takes to get developed the harder it is going to be to compete with the other established courses. There are a lot of courses expanding, there are new courses going in and it is a market. That is my comment. (Inaudible) Kingsford: You have had your shot, let's let everybody please one at a time, if there is Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 8 time then you are welcome to come back. Anyone else? Sweet: Mr. Mayor, my name is Jerry Sweet, I am a citizen and a taxpayer here in the City. I am not real familiar with this issue to the degree that I would like to but and correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that the City will be investing new monies into this proposed nine hole course is that correct? Monies that come from the taxpayers? Kingsford: No, well depending on how, if you say that the development fees that we are going to charge yes those will be taxpayers they will have to pay a bigger load for their house that is true. It won't be from tax money no. Sweet: Well, in essence to me any type of a fee that you assess whether it is impact or whatever it is ultimately a tax of some kind on the people of this community to fund that facility. So it is public money is that correct? Kingsford: Weill am sure that we can argue that for a long while. Sweet: No, I am asking a question Mayor. Kingsford: I would disagree with that, (inaudible) what happens is when you have a fee on development out there the cost of that dirt is more expensive likewise when you sell it it is going to be that much more money too. Sweet: Weill guess the question that I would have for you and the Council is if the City is involved in investing and recreation should be not assess what most people recreate whether it be baseball or fishing and then when we go out and build those facilities first. For example, fishing happens to be the number 2 recreational sport in the State of Idaho only after swimming and walking actually if you include walking as recreation. So would it be wiser for the City to buy land and put ponds in for fishing rather than golfing? Kingsford: It really didn't come under the guise of the public notice but we will dully note that. Sweet: In all seriousness, the golf course, I don't happen to golf I may someday but if the citizens of this community are funding that facility are ultimately responsible through the City someone has to commit financing to it I would assume somehow. Kingsford: Jerry, I wouldn't' be opposed if you wanted to develop property and say hey we are going to put a pond out there and we are going to assess fees on the people that have the amenity of that pond in their neighborhood that is fine. Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 9 Sweet: That is private though, what I do with my private money as a business in this community is one thing, what happens with public funds if these aren't identified coming from a private then I assume they must be public funds would be another matter. Morrow: No, I think I disagree with that Jerry, I think the issue here is this is a real transitional type of concept. I n answer to your former question one of the items that we are addressing here tonight after this issue is done is we are going to be talking about impact fees. The impact fees we are talking about will quite candidly include Sweet: (Inaudible) Morrow: Will quite candidly include parks and recreation of a different sort. The issue here with respect to taxpayer monies, taxpayer money in terms of development of this golf course are not at issue. The City is lending $350,000 to develop the golf course out right away. It is to be paid back by an increased fee on the lots that directly benefit from the amenity and as Mr. Croft has stated partially incorrectly the value of his house is greater from an appraisal standpoint because the perceived benefit in the public's mind of living on a golf course makes the value of the house greater. Therefore it increases the amount of tax the house pays. Now the issue here is that we are not spending taxpayer money (inaudible) Sweet: That is the City of Meridian's money is that not public money? Morrow: We are lending the money, the money is being returned and repaid by the private sector. We can do this one of two ways, either we can build the golf course now or we can go ahead and leave the fee in place and develop the golf course one hole at a time or whenever those funds come in from those assessments on those lots in which to build. We can do it either way, our perception as a Council is that we need to develop, this is now a city of 21 ,000+ people. It is a community of 8,000 people, we need to begin to develop things that bring a sense of community to its entirety and one of our first objectives is to get the golf course developed so that we have a place to start. We can do it the other way we just don't accomplish what it is we think that we need fOf this community to become a full fledged community in the short term and that is what we are after here. Sweet: Weill guess the two questions that still remain that I am not satisfied on is one the monies don't come from a private source and I don't agree necessarily with your definition of it and two how do we choose to allocate resources like that for which type of recreation and why. Why is that decision made for the (inaudible) to lend on this instead of a park for mOfe baseball diamonds or something like that? Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 10 Kingsford: In fact if you look at the budget that is in this year. Sweet: I am still concerned about identifying where the money is coming from and I don't know that I would agree with what you are saying as far as being. If they are in the public domain then I guess they are not private funds. Whether or not we are going to get them paid back. I appreciate your time. Kingsford: Anyone else? Carr; Gentlemen, my name is Bob Carr I am retired to be honest with you but I do playa lot of golf I live on the golf course and have been a supporter of Cherry Lane recreation function for a long time. In your opening remarks Grant you said that you were unhappy or that someone was unhappy with the lease as it is now. I would imagine with your golf committee and so forth that you have that you are probably looking at renegotiating that lease at least I would hope you would be with everything that is going on here tonight. But I think that Meridian really does need an 18 hole golf course. You have another one being built Spur Wing, of course that is a private club and there are rumors that there is another golf course being built over on I guess it is Eagle Road. So things are closing in on us and Meridian is growing as you know leaps and bounds and we really need to hold our own and have an 18 hole golf course. But I, it surprises be that the golf committee has not done a little more research of what you said in your opening remarks that you really don't know what a good lease. It sounds to me like Vern Croft has done a little more research than maybe then what you have been advised on. There are leases out there but I also done think that you can hold Wally Lovan responsible for building a club house unless he has a new lease a renegotiated lease. I would like to think that the committee here would do that and give Wally the first chance at it. Without putting it out for bid or whatever if that was the intent. If Wally is going to put the money up for a new club house why I would think that would be good to renegotiate the lease and give him 4 or 5 years or whatever to recover his money on that. Thank you. Kingsford: Thank you Morrison: I was more or less waiting for the other golfers to get done. I am a non-golfer, I do live in the Cherry Lane Village, I live between the two golf course fairways. From the time I moved out there 5 or 6 years ago we have had nothing but problems out there with the golf course as far as I am concerned. I have complained to Mr. Corrie after I walked around the corner of his house, walked down his fence and here stands a golfer taking a leak in his pine tree. The same thing happens over on the third fairway, the same thing over on five and I didn't know it when I bought the house but I have the unique position where I can see on the seventh fairway, the eighth fairway, the ninth, the first and the Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 11 second and third. Until the bushes grew up I could see right into Bob Corrie's window, until the trees grew up. I have reported to the police, we have done everything. There are other members of the people that live out there that complained to Mr. Corrie, I don't know if they want to say anything about it. It looks like we could have some kind of law enforcement out there. If I had done the same thing out in my front yard I wouldn't be out of jail yet. I would rather see this golf course on the nine they are building put into a city park for the kids which I think we have one here in Meridian. I would like to see the rest of the golf course built into houses and collecting tax money off of it. Like I say I am one of the unhappy people that moved out there with the golfers. I had intended to take up golfing when I got there. But if I am not mistaken you can check with anywhere it is against the law to use the golf course for that purpose. I have complained all the way around until I even tried it on that planning commission it didn't get anywhere. But I intend to stop it if I have to go someplace else. But as you as the mayor and the whole City Council up here I don't think that the golf course or the people playing on the golf course has the right to break the law at the expense of the other taxpayers in the City of Meridian. I can care less who operates it, City, Wally or whoever it is. I have even been threatened because I spoke up and complained about what is happening out there. I don't take that lightly to be threatened and I have notified Mr. Corrie of it. So, it isn't all happy and going out there. Like I say I am opposed to any part of the golf course even operating out there under the conditions that it has been operated under. I don't think the City of Meridian should put anymore holes out there and turn it into a city park as far as I am concerned. Thank you. Vanhalt: I am Bob Vanhalt, I have been a business owner and property owner here in Meridian for a number of years. I would like to suggest perhaps that you look at the lease again because 20 or 25 years from now that $6,000 that they won't amount to a whole lot. I would think that it would be more equitable for everyone if you could work out some kind of percentage on the gross rather than a set fee. I think that would be more equitable as time passes because 20 to 25 years that $6,000 isn't going to amount to a whole lot, probably half of what it is now. I would just I ike to suggest that you consider that. Thank you. Kingsford: Anyone else? One of the things that I did do and this has been referenced a couple of times was to run some calculations as to what the lease hold improvements to date and those that are proposed would equate to then in a rental fee or a lease fee over the term of the lease. It comes out to be between $20,000 and $25,000 depending on which end of the lease holding improvements you look at. So I don't think we are really looking at $6,000 as substantially greater than that, that still may not be satisfactory. Anyone else? Fitzgerald: I am John Thomas Fitzgerald, I am from McCall actually. I came to work for Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 12 Wally Lovan about 2 1/2 to 3 months ago. I would like to address this issue, I don't know if it is going to get addressed on the time we have. There has been some concern about the fairness of golfers and how they are being treated at the Cherry Lane Golf Course. I don't know if I have the grounds to speak on this or not but I have worked at other golf courses, I have played at many many golf courses as of 98% of everybody here. I don't think that anybody can fairly complain about how anybody is being treated out there. I grew up in McCall and up there as a junior I was not able to play at my free time or on weekends especially. Wally is very considerate to young people, women especially and men. I don't know, it seems like, alii have heard out there is just kind of an attack on Mr. Lovan's character and I have had nothing but gentleness from Wally and his whole family. I don't know any of these, I am not into any of these other affairs. I don't know, I don't see how anybody here has the grounds to speak, if anybody would go play anywhere else or try to become a member at another golf course they would see and I am sure they have, what people are treated like elsewhere. I think that everybody just needs to step back and take a better look at how Mr. Lovan has actually treating people out there. Women are not given lunches at most other golf courses on ladies day. That was one of the first things that I noticed and I was very appalled at that and sat back and I don't know. From my point of view I just I am amazed that this has even come up at the golf course out there. Well that is all I have to say, thank you. Kingsford: Thank you Townsend: My name is Fred Townsend, I live over in southwest Boise and I have been golfing here since the early 80's when that was sort of a pasture land that you could still see the cowpies on the fairways. I think that it has been developed into a pretty nice course and I think the people are pretty gracious. They have always treated me fairly. I think Wally has done a good job out there. Thank you. Kingsford: Anyone else? Kennedy: My name is William Kennedy, I live on the golf course. I am the president of the men's association and I would like to make a recommendation that if you, are you considering impact fees just for the golfing community out there or possibly impact fees for any other development in the City should also be considered. The people that live on the golf course are not the only ones that use the course, there are surrounding areas that or high use of the course and impact fees can be used not only for the golfers but can be used for parks and other things as well. If there is going to be an impact fee you should look at the possibility of that fee being used for the golf course because we fully support that. But also for other things as well. I think that is something that the City of Meridian needs to look at very closely. Secondly as a golfer on Cherry Lane I feel that 18 holes will Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 13 enhance the environment out there, I fully support the person who complained about the illegal actions which are occurring out there. If that would come to this association the men's association I am sure we will do something about those if they are members of the men's association about that as well as I am sure Wally would be in full support of doing as well. It is time things like that stopped. I think if it is occurring and my personally I have not seen it occur but if it is occurring I think it needs to stop at this point in time. We are in a society where things like that just should not be tolerated. We support the other 18 as well. Thank you. Kingsford: By the way we are looking at impact fees for parks and fire and other things as well. Palmer: My name is Maxine Palmer, we live at Cherry Lane. In 1978 we built a house in Cherry Lane and we were probably the 12th or 14th house out there on the golf course. Three years ago we sold that house and built another house on the golf course. I think it is time that Meridian got the other nine holes so that we can have an 18 hole course and really have a good time out there. Thank you Hill: My name is Joan Hill, I live on Cherry Lane Golf Course. I would hope that the Council would look at a golf course as a source of pride for the City. I think we have examples of that all around us. McCall certainly is one, Purple Sage, Nampa and I think that the only way to increase our pride in that is to finish out the project, make it an 18 hole golf course. I would think that would benefit both Wally (End of Tape) going ahead with your plans could only benefit the City of Meridian. Kingsford: Thank you, anyone else? Mr. Croft you have first right to rebuWe then if you want to say something else. And then I think Mr. Meyers, again if you would come up so we can have you on tape. Croft: I am not opposed to an 18 hole golf course the fact of the matter is when I bought there in 72 I was told it would be enforced in the year. I am sorry I bought in 1992. Every year I have been getting the same story from the developers out there, next year, next year, next year. This town is (inaudible) if they don't complete that golf course. I don't play out there for the simple fact it is a nine hole course. I will not play on a nine hole course, if I am going to golf I am going to golf on an 18 hole course. That is why I don't play out there. Kingsford: I know a lot of people feel that same way. Croft: That is a feeling that is rampant around, why should I go playa repetitious golf Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 14 course vvhen I can go play 18 somewhere else for the same price. You are doing yourself a disservice if you don't build the back nine. Get the club house and get a new contract. Kingsford: Of course I have the good fortune that when I play out there Mr. Croft I have a lot of variety it is a whole different course when I play at the same time because I am (inaudible). Croft: One other item and it has already been tested in the courts in the state, post a sign at the club house golfers are responsible for damage incurred by their ball. It has already done through the courts in Coeur d'Alene, they are responsible. We need that posted. Kingsford: Mr. Meyers Meyers: Well, I forgot to mention the first time I was up that I do live it out there now. I think that back nine is going to make a real difference to the town, to the City to the community of vvhat we have got here. As far as the lease, I remember when that thing was put together. As you said we couldn't find anybody that was interested in doing anything with that golf course. Of course Mayor Storey didn't want to have anything to do with it. I think it was a, I really think of it as a great thing for the community that Wally stepped forward and took it over. And now you guys can pick that lease apart or whatever you want but it was done on a long term deal and that was the only way it could get done because he was going to put a whole bunch of money in that thing. He has and it has worked out very nicely. It is in good shape now and it has taken time and time and time and they had to rebuild most of the irrigation system and the sprinkler system because it wasn't put together right. We didn't know that when it happened but it did. But I think there is a possibility that lease, it looks awfully good to some folks right now but then when it was going in the last 15 years it sure hasn't been a really hot deal. Now we are going to get the other nine in which it looks like is going to go I think that would be great. But the other thing is also that other nine is going to increase the property out there and we are going to just spend more money paying taxes. I just bought a house out there a year and a half ago and the taxes have already gone up. Why is that, not because of the property values because the dang golf course is there. That is okay because I will play it. Kingsford: My taxes went up and I wasn't that close to the golf course. Everybody got to share in that joy. Lovan: Now I am the gentleman that everybody is talking about this evening, my name is Wally Lovan. I got into this lease a number of years back because I was raised in this community, I have worked for this community ever since I was in high school. I believe that this is a first class community and I am going to do everything in my power to see that it stays there. I originally got into this golf course because at that time Meridian was Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 15 building a lot of low income type homes (inaudible). Mr. Fuller and Mr. Kent Barney came along and wanted to put in this subdivision, Cherry Lane Village. They also wanted to give a golf course to the City of Meridian. As it turned out the City didn't want it and that is the way I became involved in this thing. At this point in time I have spent quite a lot of my resources in keeping this thing alive. And regardless of what quite a lot of people think I am not getting wealthy, I would have been a lot better off if I had stayed with my other position and retired. Right now I am committed to this (inaudible) lease was first signed. I said I wanted to build the club house. You see an image up there of what I consider a club house. A club house has to be functional, it has to serve a functional plan. This one here it will be nice. The concept is not completed as of yet, it will be on the edge of the lake, the lake over here that you see now, the larger body of water will correspond there with the club house. You can step out on the back deck and set there and have a soda pop or whatever. Watch the golfers use the driving range across the lake right into the mountains, the most beautiful setting. If I make a whole lot of money off of this thing I hope I at least get a break even that was my intent in the original and believe me I am not broke even yet. If I had my way this is going to be the most beautiful golf course in the State of Idaho. I plan to put extra money into trimming the thing up, trimming it up where we have hopefully gardens and everything else. It will always remain a municipal golf course and it is something that the citizens the people of Meridian are going to be proud of I know that. So, I just hope that the lease agreement and everything are not changed too much. I (inaudible) lease agreement right now in building this club house is going to cost me about, I have to borrow money in the neighborhood of $40,000 to $50,000 a year for the life of the mortgage. And you don't get it paid for in 5 years. Now, some of the other courses may be paying more than that I do not know. Golfing is like any other sport, you have ups and you have downs. Right not the play of golf is in a 6 year flat area. The number of new golfers are actually down. These are stats given by the national golf foundation. Anybody interested in reading these stats can come out to the club house and I will show them the publication even make you a copy. Mayor it is about time for me to sign off here but that is the position that I have taken. It is going to be a nice golf course and people are going to be proud of it. Kingsford: For the record Mr. Bodine was late to the meeting. Bodine: I just would like to give a little (inaudible) where Wally left off because the Chamber got involved as Wally well remembers. We went to the Chamber in order to try and get this sold to the City Council. I was on the Council at the time and the Mayor didn't feel like it was a good investment even though we weren't putting any money into it at that time. We checked Mountain Home, Emmett, Payette, and possibly one other course. Financially they all made some money or we wouldn't have gotten it sold. I have to tell you they made big money we are making a little money, nothing big. I remember that is what Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 16 helped us sell it, but it wasn't making money, I am going to admit to that I have heard several say that there had never been anyone else offered to take it It don't make any difference whether they had or not but it had better have should be straight (Inaudible) an offer to take it. I don't know if you were on the Council at that time or not. Kingsford: He came forward with that Marv after finally it was leased. Bodine: No, he came before we ever leased it and made and offer. We had leased it he came back later. Kingsford: I was unaware of his first offer if there was one. Bodine: He came in before it was leased but Don had a reason and this is probably good, Don said if we lease it he is going to go broke. He says there is no way he could make it and he says I don't want the City with a golf course. So, Don had asked permission if he could make the lease with Wally and that is where it was left from there. Is that right Wally? (Inaudible) Bodine: That is alii have to say I don't remember a cow pile. (Inaudible) because they re- surveyed that course so many times that it is terrible. Kingsford: There is a lot of goose pie out there, there is not a whole lot of cow pie. Lovan: If I may make one rebuttal, Marvin and I have been long long friends for many years. I can't quit without a rebuttal, Marv you are getting old and forgetful. Kingsford: Well, we have one more minute, if anyone else would like to say anything? If not I certainly thank everyone for their input it was a very well attended meeting. Corrie: Mr. Mayor if I might, I want to thank everybody for coming tonight, this was somewhat of my asking to have the public input on the golf course because of the financing on the back nine the people going to be contributing to this. I wanted to make sure that everybody understood where the money was coming from and where it was going. I have a little different view than the Mayor has on some things which is quite alright We don't always agree on everything and we come together after the meeting is over and everybody decides what they want. I had a statement prepared I didn't' know if I was going to read it or not because I wanted to hear what the comments were. I am still going to read it because I haven't changed my mind. Two things that I want to say I would like to see the 18 holes go in and I think Mr. Lovan has done a wonderful job in making Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 17 that golf course what it is today. I thank Wally for doing that. However, as a Councilman I do feel it is my responsibility as a steward to the City property and monies used by the City. In reviewing the needs of Meridian for more parks and recreational facilities I cannot in good faith understand why the City should not be receiving some revenues from this golf course. Which we are not at the present time and we do not, and if we do put in the additional nine holes the City could only receive $6,000 a year for 38 years. The future of Meridian's recreational facilities should be by choice and not by chance. I have talked to officials in Caldwell, and of course as you heard tonight they do have their own golf course between $250,000 to $300,000 a year from their receipts. Nampa is putting in 27 more holes and use part of their golf course receipts to help defray the cost of the new rec center. Hindsight is always better than foresight but perhaps we can work out a program where Meridian might be able to receive more or at least a better percentage of the fees there to help build more parks all the soccer fields and perhaps a rec center if we can. I understand there are concerns for the City to run a golf course but we should be able to compromise in some way to help pay for parks without raising property tax. That is alii have to say Mr. Mayor. Kingsford: Any other Councilmen want to say anything? Mr. Morrow Morrow I think I want to make a couple of comments with respect to the lease. The lease is certainly something that we will take a look at. I would caution you though in terms of the lease hold improvements that have already been made out there if we are going to re- negotiate the existing lease or if we are going to come to some sort of agreement where Mr. Lovan wishes to be no longer involved an wishes the City to but it out I as a City Councilman will vote for no monies from city coffers to buyout the substantial investment that Mr. Lovan already has. Any type of lease negotiation or change would have to come at a mutually agreeable resolution between the Council and Mr. Lovan. I don't see where we in the current taxing revenue situation can come with any kind of revenues to buyout Mr. Lovan. Secondly and I think the area that we look at in terms of the lease is that if he going to expand $400,000 to $500,000 to build a club house and we contractual bind him to do that we are also obligated as a city as any business would be to give me or his heirs a long enough lease by which that not only can they pay back the monies that they have to borrow but they are entitled to a reasonable chance to make a profit. Although I think it is something that we take a look at. I don't think that we just run right out and attempt to re-negotiate. The second thing is where I disagree with Mr. Corrie is that any income that golf course generates in my opinion ought to be reinvested within the golf course or within promotion of future golf courses or whatever. I don't see taking golf course money and investing that in some other entity within the City. I think that if we are going to raise monies for parks and ball fields that those monies come from impact fees or property taxes and that those people as is currently the case that participate in that with respect to Fuller Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 18 park and with respect to American Legion park those people that are playing baseball spend a lot of time and money and effort to enhance those facilities to make them workable for them. I wouldn't take any of the monies that we budget for parks and invest it into the golf course not to support that. Although I respect Mr. Corrie's opinion I disagree with it from that standpoint Having said that I think tonight's meeting was extremely beneficial, the input is good. I think from my perspective we continue on the direction that we are and take a look at the lease, we take a look at the numbers and then we make a decision that is in the best interest of the City and the community in general. As I have stated before I am entirely for building a sense of community. We are growing way too fast to develop that sense of community and we need to start having improvements that will bring all the folks that reside within the City of Meridian together so we can create a sense of identity again. So having said that those would be my feelings in terms of this project. Kingsford: Mr. Tolsma? Tolsma: Yes, I would just like to echo Walt's sentiments. I have been trying to get a new park built out here on Linder Road. Approximately 2 years we have had the money appropriated for it, we purchased the ground and paid for the ground. We made the (inaudible) government block grant to build a pathway on it Since that time we have spent 2 years to get the pathway project done even though we acquired the money. The pathway project required from the government grant required a special engineer to (inaudible) wetlands grass out there. So we spent 120 days trying to get a wetlands area negotiated so we could fill the ground. We have the wetlands area negotiated and (inaudible) at that time we had a public hearing on the pathway project and they decided they didn't' run it in the back of houses so now we have to cross the ditch and we spent another 4 to 6 months to try and get the Corps of Engineer, the Department of Agriculture and the Irrigation District to give us an agreement to bridge across the ditch. Which we finally got done and the pathway done the road we started to dig holes to put the abutments for our bridge across the ditch. They found oil samples in the ground so how we are with DEQ and several other agencies now to see where the oil or petroleum projects got into the ground. So we are sitting there now with another 120 to 190 days trying to figure out if we are going to be able to get (inaudible). That is what we run into trying to build a city park where we don't want level the rest of the city park because of the amount of gravel that is going to come off the drain ditch banks to use as fill. We had 4000 yards of top soil in there to fill this gravel base. We are still in the process of trying to see if we are going to be able to build a park out there and get our sprinkler systems and everything. We would like to have it hopefully ready to sod probably this fall so we can put a park in. So building a park is not an easy, it is about as hazardous as trying to build a damn golf course. I know what the Mayor's objects are here, he wants to build a golf course, Wally wants to build a golf course. There are a lot of people that want to build Meridian City Council Special Meeting June 27, 1995 Page 19 a golf course. It is tough to come up with that kind of money but we have a lot of people willing to volunteer even building the parks we have people with loaders and dump trucks and everything else that is volunteering to help us build a park. The park we built down here in back of the speedway, the American Legion baseball team, they raised the money they put the lights in they put the score board in, they put the grand stands they put the concession stand in. It all belongs to the City of Meridian but they have the first right to use it. Being as that was a federally funded park we had to go through some really high hurdles to be able to get them people to be able to use it like themselves rather than a public entity. Even though it is on public ground. I know an 18 hole golf course is needed in the City of Meridian. Everybody that I hear traveling through here says how come you only have nine holes, how come you don't have 18. I says there has been a lot of struggles to get 18 in but we are really close right now. The Mayor has worked very hard on getting this put together and a lot of other people in here also have. I just hope that we pursue this and get the 18 holes in so we can get back underway. Kingsford: Thank you I appreciate everybody's input. We have another meeting scheduled it is going to start 10 minutes ago. So any of you that would like to hear some strategic planning would be more than welcome to stay and listen to how we are going to do away with sewer waste. MEETING ADJOURNED (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ATTEST: J~A~~~ WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK NOTICE OF PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN THAT The Meridian City Council will hold a public meeting on June 27, 1995, at the Meridian City Hall, 33 East Idaho Street, Meridian, Idaho, which meeting shall commence at 6:30 Po M. on June 27, 1995, and last until 7:30 P. M. The purpose of the meeting is for the City to give information to the public on the Cherry Lane Golf Course, show the possible plan and layout of the back-nine holes, and to receive public comment on the golf course operation and the back-nine; the meeting shall be conducted prior to a planning session of the Meridian City Council at 7:30 Po M. on the above dateo Interested people are invited, and requested, to come to the meeting, receive information, and to give their input. Dated this 21st day of June, 1995. ~~~~ G T P. KINGS OR yor CITY OF MERIDIAl PUBLIC MEETING SIGN-UP SHEET _ lily. (1tJbf,m ~ d{'UUAL /fl ed1hj - --rE~tt I J~ .2.1/ /9tflJ If ~E NUM~~ d7?-vZ7/c9 ~ 3-1 :c - orO 30 2 r- '2. '3 g-- 51r~-( ~ I r J11!o r-9)/ / 32-) ~ qg> \ ( ( I '//0- K~~ /)-9' ~~7 - ~ ??f% -- 1:;2 :3 gt? ~rflo , (;-<Z' -- -:z f- S~0: J? NAME CITY OF MERIDIAI PUBLIC MEETING SIGN-UP SHEET 6ltj &/(/1{!iL d(xct~ /Jleel7!f} &4 WtvUD 7?rLf{{{u!) .;7i0't-( 27; /1'1 b e 6 .rJo ;;/0 PHONE NUMBER /'7 .?k (' -d/feJ/?/, e:4-/ Yrf7-6hf/ ;;// ~ (-' :~"'-'~ 9<27 - b b \?~ a 51 ~- 0 8 t3 CITY OF MERIDIAlY PUBLIC MEETING SIGN-UP SHEET e:?r Coevne-i& Jjuu~ /l1eehXj - 6tifl C%vt.u 7tLtfdlljl Jit~ 21; 19'17 r? pf$a /N NAME PHONE NUMBER ~;~ /J.t::;:p~t?/V :::_- :~~,7 ~ ~ c t '\: l C\. 'f -e *'-_ Le)\) c., ~ ~ 1$ ?s- - II 1 l{ 9 ~or; C!4r2-il- 887"' 3<-1-30 T '882~]6/2- ,? cf f- c; 2-d OFFICIALS WILLIAM G. BERG, Jr., City Clerk JANICE L GASS, Clly Trensurer GARY D. SMITH. P.E. City Engineer BRUCE O. STUART, Wntnr Works Supt. JOHN T. SHAWCROFT, Waste Water Supt. DENNIS J. SUMMERS. Parka Supt. SHARI S. STI LES, P & Z Adm. KENNETH W. BOWERS, Flro Chin! W. L. "BILL" GORDON, Pollen Chlnl WAYNE G. CROOKSTON. JR.. Attorney I HUB OF TREASURE VALLEY A Good Place to Live COUNCIL MEMBERS RONALD R. TOLSMA MAX YERRINGTON ROBERT O. CORRIE WALTW. MORROW CITY OF MERIDIAN 33 EAST IDAHO MERIDIAN, IDAHO 83642 Phone (208) 8884433 D FAX (208) 887-4813 Public Worh/Building Department (208) 887-2211 GRANT P. KINGSFORD Mayor P & Z COMMISSION JIM JOHNSON, Chairman MaE ALlDJANI JIM SHEARER CHARLIE ROUNTREE TIM HEPPER NOTICE OF SPECIAL WORKSHOP NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Meridian City Council of the City of Meridian will hold a Special Workshop to discuss Strategic Planning for the City of Meridian at City Hall, 33, East Idaho, Meridian, Idaho, on Tuesday, June 27, 1995 at 7:30 P.M. The public is welcome to attend. DATED this 21 st day of June, 1995. NOTICE OF PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN THAT The Meridian City Council will hold a public meeting on June 27, 1995, at the Meridian City Hall, 33 East Idaho Street, Meridian, Idaho, which meeting shall commence at 6:30 P. M. on June 27, 1995, and last until 7:30 P. M. The purpose of the meeting is for the City to give information to the public on the Cherry Lane Golf Course, show the possible plan and layout of the back-nine holes, and to receive public comment on the golf course operation and the back-nine; the meeting shall be conducted prior to a planning session of the Meridian City Council at 7:30 P. M. on the above date. Interested people are invited, and requested, to come to the meeting, receive information, and to give their input. Dated this 21st day of June, 1995. ~~~~~ G T P. KINGS OR yor