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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2023-06-27 Regular Meridian City Council June 27, 2023. A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:08 p.m. Tuesday, June 27, 2023, by Mayor Robert Simison. Members Present: Robert Simison, Brad Hoaglun, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Jessica Perreault, Liz Strader and John Overton. Also present: Chris Johnson, Bill Nary, Stacy Hersh, Kyle Radek, Jamie Leslie, Joe Bongiorno and Dean Willis. ROLL-CALL ATTENDANCE Liz Strader _X_ Joe Borton _X_ Brad Hoaglun _X_ John Overton _X_ Jessica Perreault _X—Luke Cavener X Mayor Robert E. Simison Simison: Council, we will call the meeting to order. For the record it is June 27th, 2023, at 6:08 p.m. We will begin tonight's regular City Council meeting with roll call attendance. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Simison: Next time is -- is the Pledge of Allegiance. If you would all, please, rise and join us in the pledge. (Pledge of Allegiance recited.) COMMUNITY INVOCATION Simison: Tonight's community invocation will be delivered by David Rice. If you would all, please, join us in the community invocation or take this as a moment of silence and reflection. Rice: Our Heavenly Father, as we gather tonight for the City Council meeting we give our thanks for our favorable circumstances. We are grateful for the freedoms we enjoy as citizens of this country and of this state. We express our gratitude for our armed service men and women who have secured these liberties for us and express our thanks for our first responders who devote their time and their abilities to keeping them safe and -- and helping maintain the safety of our community. We ask thy blessings upon the proceedings this night. We ask thy blessings upon the Mayor and Council that they will have wisdom and discernment to best represent the best interests of our community. We ask thy blessings upon those who present that they will do so effectively, that all relevant material be presented and considered. We are mindful of those in our community with need and we ask you to bless those of us who are in a Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 2 of 79 position to provide assistance that we might know where and how we may do that. And these blessings we ask and thanks we offer in the name of thy Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ, amen. ADOPTION OF AGENDA Simison: Thank you. Next up is adoption of the agenda. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor, I move that we adopt the agenda as published. Borton: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as published. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the agenda is adopted. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. PUBLIC FORUM — Future Meeting Topics Simison: Mr. Clerk, anyone signed up under public forum? Johnson: Mr. Mayor, no sign ups. ACTION ITEMS 1. Request from Robert Taylor for Connection to the City Water and Sewer Systems Outside City Limits at 3840 E. Overland Rd. Simison: Okay. Then with that we will move on to Action Items. First item up is a request from Robert Taylor for connection to the city water and sewer systems outside of city limits. Turn this over to Mr. Radek. Radek: Mr. Mayor, Council Members. This is a request -- we have seen a few of these in the last year. Mr. Taylor has a well on his property that has failed recently and he is -- although the request says outside city limits, Mr. Taylor's address is 3840 East Overland, which is right across from Silverstone. Water and sewer are available in Overland Road and, in fact, a water service and a sewer service were brought to the property in 2004 as part of the road expansion project. So -- so, water and sewer are ready to be served to the property. He has explored a replacement of the well and found that well drillers are three years out from being able to get work done. So, the -- the only practical alternative for him to -- to get water is -- is request it from the city. He Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 3 of 79 could annex now and just hook up to water and sewer. The request is made so that he can get working on getting the hook up as soon as possible and, then, work on annexation. So, we would like to expedite the process of getting him back into water to his -- to his residence and Mr. Taylor is -- he doesn't have any comments for City Council beyond the background that I provided I don't believe, but he is available here in case you have questions for him. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Council, questions for staff or Mr. Taylor? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Question I guess for Kyle -- and that's the part where I was somewhat confused is eligible for annexation, certainly sympathetic let's make sure this individual gets access to water and sewer, but that is contingent upon an annexation request to come at a later point in time. Is --just help me understand -- again we want everyone to annex in and -- but if we grant sewer and water it softens the carrot that gets people to come and annex in. So, help me understand what that process looks like. Radek: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, this is a -- this is a process that's pretty much laid out specifically in code that if somebody wants to -- wants to hook up outside of city limits that we make an agreement with them and so we allow them to hook up to water and -- whatever is available. In this case water and sewer are both -- both available and we -- we have an agreement, which is the next item on the agenda, and that agreement will require Mr. Taylor to pursue annexation diligently. In fact, I think we put 60 days in the -- in the agreement, so -- so everything's going to happen here. You are just letting him hook up to water and sewer first, because that's the most important thing. Cavener: Certainly the need. His letter definitely articulates that. So, thanks. Simison: Council, any additional questions for staff or would you like to hear from Mr. Taylor? Yes, you would like to hear from Mr. Taylor, Council Woman Strader or -- okay. If you would like to come forward. If you can just probably state your intentions, so the Council hears it directly from yourself. Taylor: Robert Taylor. Would like to request access to the Meridian city water and sewer for my property. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: And -- and Mr. Taylor -- and you are in agreement with the extension and the annexation process to do so; is that -- is that right? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 4 of 79 Taylor: That's fair. Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. 2. Agreement for Extension of Domestic Water and Sewer Service Outside Meridian City Limits at 3840 E. Overland Rd. Simison: Thank you. So, Council, would you like to move on to Item 2? Okay. Next up is Item 2, agreement for extension of domestic water and sewer service outside Meridian city limits at 3840 East Overland Road. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I move that we approve the agreement for the extension of domestic water and sewer service outside the Meridian city limits at 3840 East Overland Road. Cavener: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the item is agreed to. Thank you very much. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. 3. Public Hearing for Linder Village (H-2023-0005) by CSHQA, located at Southeast corner of N. Linder Rd. and W. Chinden Blvd. A. Request: Development Agreement Modification to the existing Development Agreement (Inst. #2019-028376 & #2021-102392) to update the conceptual development and use area plans to amend some of the building footprints, vehicular/pedestrian site circulation and parking; and include multi-family residential as a future use. Simison: Okay. Next item up is Item 3. Don't know if we are supposed to open it or just continue it. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council -- Johnson: We cannot open it due to the hearing -- or noticing deficiency. Simison: Okay. So -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 5 of 79 Simison: Yes, Mr. Mayor? Hoaglun: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Just to explain for folks who might be here for -- for this public hearing, there was improper noticing on this request and we are going to reschedule this item to our July 18th hearing date and so with that, Mr. Mayor, I move we continue the public hearing for -- or this item H-2023-0005 to our July 18th meeting. Borton: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second. Is there discussion? If -- if not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the public hearing is continued to that date. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. 4. Public Hearing for Ringneck Place Subdivision (H-2023-0009) by RiveRidge Engineering Company, located at 2315 E. Ustick Rd. (Parcel No. S1105212448 and Parcel No. S1105212449) A. Request: Annexation of 1.73 acres of land with an R-8 zoning district. B. Request: Preliminary Plat consisting of 9 residential single-family attached building lots and 2 common lots. Simison: Next item up is Item 4, which is a public hearing for Ringneck Place Subdivision. We will open -- which is H-2023-0009. We will open this public hearing with staff comments. Hersh: Good evening, Mayor and Council Members. The applicant is here to discuss their project for Ringneck Place Subdivision. The applications that were submitted are annexation and zoning and preliminary plat. The site consists of 1.39 acres of land, zoned R-1 in Ada county, located at 2315 East Ustick Road, consisting of two parcels. The history on the project is none. The comprehensive FLUM designation is medium density residential and the summary of the request -- the applicant proposes to annex 1.73 acres of land with an R-8 zoning district. The property is within the city's area of impact. A preliminary plat and conceptual building elevations were submitted showing how the property is proposed to be subdivided and developed with nine single family attached and detached dwelling units and two common lots at a gross density of 5.84 units per acre. Proposed lot size ranges -- range in size from 4,237 to 5,332 square feet. The proposed use and density of the development is consistent with the medium density residential FLUM designation. Single family detached and attached dwellings are listed as a principal permitted use in the R-8 zoning district per the UDC and future development is subject to the dimensional standards listed in the UDC. The proposed Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 6 of 79 preliminary plat appears to comply with the dimensional standards of this district. Access is proposed from East Ringneck Street from East Verrado Avenue and East Ustick Road. Direct lot -- lot access from East Ustick Road is prohibited. The applicant is proposing to remove the existing curb cut to East Ustick Road on the site as depicted on the preliminary -- preliminary plat. An emergency vehicle turnaround is depicted on the plat over Lot 3, Block 2. The intent is to remove the turnaround to accommodate a single family residential home once North Lapis Road is extended in the future. The applicant has proposed to landscape this parcel and it to be used as a common open space for the development until such time that North Lapis Road is extended. Off-street parking is required to be provided in accordance with UDC standards for single family dwellings based on the number of bedrooms per unit and staff will confirm compliance with these standards at the time of building permit for each residence. A 25 foot landscape buffer is required along East Ustick Road in accordance with the UDC. The landscape plan depicts a 30 foot landscape buffer along Ustick Road due to the Milk Lateral easement. Staff finds that the landscape -- landscape plan should depict less lawn and a wider -- wider planter bed, with an additional mix of variety of shrubs, mulch and other vegetative ground cover in accordance with the UDC. East Ustick is improved with an existing five foot wide detached concrete sidewalk abutting the site in accordance with the UDC standards. Staff is not recommending that the sidewalk be replaced with an attached -- with an attached -- detached -- with a five foot detached sidewalk. The applicant is proposing five foot attached sidewalks on both sides of East Ringneck Street and Lapis Avenue. Staff recommends that the applicant replace the gravel area in the parkway area with vegetation in accordance with the UDC and remove the driveway and replace the curb, gutter and sidewalk per ACHD standards. Underground pressurized irrigation water is required to be provided to each lot within the subdivision as set forth in UDC. The second common lot proposed on the east side of the site is planned to serve the pump station for the proposed subdivision pressure irrigation as depicted on the preliminary plat. The corridor for the southern user ditch is to be piped from the southeast corner of the existing exit location into the Verrado Subdivision to the west. Conceptual building elevations were submitted that demonstrate what future homes in this development will look like. Variations of single story homes with a two car garage are proposed. The submitted elevations depict a number of different architectural and design styles with field materials -- materials of lap siding, stucco, different color accents and roof profiles. Staff recommends that the applicant add additional stone or brick accents to the front of the homes to provide more of a variation of materials and a combination of various colors for each unit. The applicant shall submit elevations for the single family detached home with the design review application. The final design of the structure is required to comply with the design standards listed in the Architectural Standards Manual. Commission recommendation of -- recommended approval. Summary of the Commission public hearing. In favor was Chip Gallagher. In opposition was none. Commenting was Chip Gallagher. Written testimony was Christie Mangel about increased traffic safety and need for noise mitigation. Key issues were none. Key issues discussed by Commission were none. Commission changes to staff recommendations was none. Outstanding issues for City Council is none. And written testimony since the Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 7 of 79 Commission hearing is none. And that concludes staff's presentation and I stand for any questions. Simison: Thank you, Stacy. Council, any questions for staff? Okay. Thank you. Is the applicant here? Good evening. If you could state your name and address for the record. Adamson: Kent Adamson. Simison: And you are going to have to choose a mic and -- Adamson: Kent Adamson with RiveRidge Engineering. I'm the applicant's representative. Mayor, City Council, thank you for taking up our proposal. I don't have too much more to say than what Stacy said. She's thorough and done a great job with -- with the projects. We have -- when we started this we went through several iterations on this plan, probably four or five to try to mitigate the concerns for access to the site and -- and in the future they wanted access to the east and to the south and with the small projects it was -- it was kind of difficult to get all that in there. But we came up with this plan here that fits the bill for everybody. We have worked really hard with ACHD and the city to, you know, make this work for everybody. We have also worked pretty hard with NMID to get the irrigation where we think it should be and because they have their lateral at the south end of the project and it goes through this and over to Verrado and we got all that taken care of. The frontage and all that -- the access, you know, we have worked that out with ACHD also in the turnaround. So, with that I will take any questions that you guys may have and thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, questions for the applicant? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Sir, are you in agreement with the changes recommended by staff to the landscape plan? Adamson: Yes, we are. Strader: Thanks. Simison: Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Clerk, do we have anybody signed up on this item? Johnson: Mr. Mayor, anybody that signed up did not mark they wanted to speak. Simison: Okay. Is there anybody present or online who would like to provide testimony on this item? If so, if you could come forward now or use the raise your hand feature on Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 8 of 79 Zoom. Seeing no one coming forward or raising their hand, would the applicant like to make any final comments? Applicant waives. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: I move that we close the public hearing on Item 4. Borton: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. Any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the public hearing is closed. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Seems like a straightforward project. Nicely done I think for an in-fill, especially considering the connectivity to the streets. So, I would go ahead and move, after considering all staff, applicant and public testimony, to approve -- recommend -- to recommend approval of File No. H-2023-0009 as presented in the staff report for today's hearing date. Borton: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second to approve Item 4. Is there discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll. Roll Call: Hoaglun, yea; Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Perreault, yea; Strader, yea; Overton, yea. Simison: All ayes. Motion carries and the item is agreed to. Thank you and good luck. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. 5. Public Hearing for Fourth Street Books - Pearl House Collective (H- 2023-0010) by EV Studio, located at 909 NE 4th St. A. Request: Rezone of 0.080 acres of land from the R-15 zoning district to the O-T zoning district. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 9 of 79 Simison: Next item up is Item 5, which is a public hearing for Fourth Street Books - Pearl House Collective, H-2023-0010. We will open this public hearing with staff comments. Hersh: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. The applicant is here to talk about their project for Fourth Street Books. It's -- the application is a rezone. The site consists of 0.157 acres of land currently zoned R-15 located at 909 Northeast 4th Street. There is no history on the property. The comprehensive FLUM designation is Old Town. The summary of the request is the applicant is requesting to rezone 0.157 acres of land from R-15 to Old Town to operate a retail use for a bookstore on the subject property with an ancillary outdoor patio. Fourth Street Books will sell both new and used books and offers a micro cafe concept, which includes a small selection of coffee, tea, beer, which is canned, and wine, with an outdoor patio. The applicant will also be promoting local authors and artists through their curated workshops and activities. The proposed 800 foot -- square foot bookstore will be located in the downtown area with the Meridian -- within the Meridian Urban Renewal District. The building, which is over a hundred years old and is -- was renovated in 2004, is slated for further improvements to meet city code requirements, enhance the customer experience. The front porch and patio area will be expanded to include an ADA ramp and more seating, with outdoor patio predominantly utilized during the warmer months. Fourth Street Books intends to participate in downtown Meridian activities, such as Art Week and Meridian Main Street Market, while promoting library and creative programming throughout the Treasure Valley. Due to the close proximity of neighboring resident properties staff acknowledges the potential for noise to travel and also receive public testimony regarding the noise and use from adjacent neighbors. To host any outdoor events the applicant is required to obtain a temporary use permit from the Clerk's office that is valid for 160 days per calendar year. Once the adjacent property is developed into commercial uses in the future the applicant can apply for a conditional use permit and for an outdoor entertainment activity space. The proposed hours of operation would be from Tuesday to Sunday, 10.00 a.m. to 10.00 p.m., with the bookstore likely opening with a reduced schedule of Thursday through Sunday, 12:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., for the first 12 to 16 months. Access is provided via public street parking on Northeast 4th Street and an alleyway located on the north side of the property. The existing home has a driveway off the alleyway that contains one employee parking stall. There is currently no off-street parking on the site. Customers can walk, bike or ride the bus as another option to bypass parking availability. Parking is available to customers in the nearby public parking lot adjacent to the Masonic Lodge, located between 2nd and 3rd Street, approximately two blocks away. There is also on-street parking available along Pine Avenue and Northeast 4th Street. Staff recommends that the applicant install no parking signs along the alley. The applicant has provided a parking plan with all available parking within a thousand feet and has used Old Town alternative parking methods from the UDC as a guide to addressing the parking issues. The applicant is proposing additional landscaping, a small selection of shrubs and ground cover, around the proposed outdoor activity space to reduce the noise in the adjacent residential district. In order to help alleviate any undue noise and light disturbances to the nearby residential uses staff recommends the landscape plan be revised to include additional -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 10 of 79 include additional landscaping along the western, southern and eastern fence line. Staff recommends that the applicant incorporate columnar trees and other taller shrubs around the fence line in addition to the shrubs -- shrubs and ground cover proposed on the landscape plan to help mitigate concerns raised by adjacent neighbors. All existing fencing will remain in place and no additional fencing is proposed to the existing fencing. The existing fencing shall meet the UDC standards. Conceptual building elevations and perspectives were submitted for the existing bookstore structure as shown. The building consists of existing siding, facia trim, asphalt roof shingles and new composite deck with a railing and ADA ramp. The only new additions to the structure are the front entry and the back patio for outdoor space. The proposed elevations are not approved with this application and will be reviewed with the design review application for consistency with the design standards in the Architectural Standards Manual. However, full compliance with the ASM standards is not required based on the limited scope of work that is going to be done with this project. Commission recommended approval and took action to approve the withdrawal of the CUP request from the applicant. And the summary from the Commission public hearing. In favor was Ashley Buzzini, Chelsea Major. And there were also other people speaking that were excited about the bookstore. Melissa Baker. Josh -- Josh Cummings. Marshall Major. Nick Grove. Anna Marino and Lisa Black. In opposition at the hearing was Tom McGoldrick, Becky Logue, Martin Logue, Leonard Cunnington, Neily Larsen, Judy Larsen, Shelby Ugarizza, Renee Yerby, Sharon Taylor, Nikki Miles, Vonda Yerby, Sarah Klaner. Commenting was Ashley Buzzini and Chelsea Major, which is the owner. Written testimony. We have multiple written testimonies under the public comments for the proposed project. Key issues that were discussed with the Commission hearing were concerns with parking availability for residents serving, beer and wine and noise. Traffic concerns with children playing in the neighborhood. Neighbors concerned with the possibility for increased theft and crime. Concerns regarding large events with possible food trucks. Concerns with Pine Avenue designated as a planned commercial arterial roadway. Key issues of discussion by Commission were the surrounding area still remains mostly residential and it has not yet fully transitioned into Old Town. There are concerns regarding parking, noise and the absence of garages for most residents in this area. Commission changes to staff's recommendation is none. Outstanding issues for Council is none. And written testimony since the Commission hearing, there are 18 written testimonies under the public comments and they are all in support of the proposed project. And that concludes staff's presentation and I stand for any questions. Simison: Thank you, Stacy. Council, questions for staff? Okay. Thank you very much. Would the applicant like to come forward? If you would state your -- if you would state your name and address for the record, please. Major: Hello. Chelsea Major. 1029 Northeast 3rd Street, Meridian. Buzzini: Ashley Buzzini. EV Studio. 725 East 2nd Street, Meridian. Major: It is a very delayed -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 11 of 79 Hersh: I can -- sorry. Can you let me use the mouse real quick? Okay. There you go. Major: There we go. Fantastic. And thank you, Stacy. I know you gave a really detailed kind of examination of what has been gone through so far and thank you all for being here tonight. I know this is how you spend most of your time and we appreciate you. So, thank you for being here today. I'm here to just give a little bit more background to what our bookstore is and what we have done for the last year and a half, as well as to speak to the vision going forward and, then, Ashley will be here as well to answer any questions related to some of the changes as part of this project. So, Fourth Street Books started out as Pearl House Collective, named after my grandmother. I am a Meridian citizen. I live off of 3rd Street. The bookstore is planned to be off of 4th Street. My husband Chase with his family is here as well and he is a longtime Idahoan and went to Ambrose and Cole Valley as well. We are very very intimately connected with the community and we are very excited to be here today for this next step of our project. We started this bookstore in 2021 as a novel model bookstore. I spent a decade in corporate America in finance. I have appreciated a lot of that experience, but I also recognize that it was time to -- as we all, I think, reevaluate in the last couple of years, come back to what was true to me. My mother was an English teacher. I grew up reading. So, we started out as a pop-up concept, because it was really something that we could handle from a cost perspective and from a trial and error perspective. We carry my books around. I go to different events today, vintage markets, breweries, hidden gem events, holiday events and really just bring my books out to the community. So, it's a lot of physical labor today. Last year we partnered with Truffles in downtown Meridian to establish a micro bookstore. So, we have a curated selection of Idaho authors and related books, especially ones on the camping and hiking for summer, and that's really how we do a lot with the local community today. We run a monthly book club. We discuss books and we have done a lot around the recent challenges we have seen with our library system in Idaho. So, we do a lot to advocate and to educate the importance of reading, the importance of literature and literacy. And, then, in the last month we actually helped co-host our first night market. So, we partnered with the Roosevelt Frontier Club, as well as 15 plus artists and makers to have our first night market where we could come in and bring more community and culture into downtown Meridian. So, this is just -- this is what I do. This is a lot of who I am. So, looking forward we really want to take this to the next level. Every time we did an event the question was always, wait, you're a bookstore, where are you; right? So, we looked around. There is a lot of really great places in Treasure Valley, but we wanted to be here in the heart of Meridian. So, we acquired the Fourth Street property with the goal of making it a community space, not only to be books where you can purchase them, but also where you can hang out, where you can be there and thrive. So, we will continue to partner with new and emerging artists and makers like we do today, we partner with a local literary nonprofit. The Backyard Artist, which actually promotes a lot of authors that are up and coming. So, again, just -- you know, we are really trying to bring something in that's not big box. We are not trying to compete with Amazon. We are not trying to be a Barnes and Noble or trying to be an intimate curated space that fills the need that our community has asked for. We have, you know, done a lot of research in relation to the existing plans, both in terms of like downtown -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 12 of 79 Destination Downtown Meridian and the Meridian strategic plan. It's very nice light reading. Highly recommend it. But, you know, looking with that in mind, wanting to continue to align with those goals, making this a place where people want to live, they want to work, they want to be here after work. I will also speak a little bit around how we are honoring our local history. I know that there is not a -- there wasn't a lot of history about this property and I was lucky to uncover some of that along the way. And, then, as I mentioned before, we really want to have a space out back where during the nice summer months, fall months that we can have book club readings, open mics to read poetry to try out something new that you haven't actually submitted for publication, that sort of thing. So, I know Stacy already spoke to some of the -- the changes that are going to be done, but I just wanted to call out again the -- the ADA accessible ramp in the front, adding additional seating and, then, in the backyard thinking much more like Octoberfest style benches. So, really really thin narrow benches where people can come in, they can sit down, they can drink a coffee, they could get a beer, they can read a book. And, then, we also have a small basement, which would be employee access, only as well as along the side of the property having storage space, which is kind of that gray -- darker gray on the left side here. In the interior we have really tall ceilings. Really cool benefit of some of these older homes, as we can do floor to ceiling books. So, we are going to do that in the main front room. We are actually kind of opening up that front bedroom and opening up the wall space, so it's a bigger walk through. We have seating when you come in, as well as we will still have bookshelves that are kind of stacked above those seatings as well next to windows. So, it's really nice big windows so you can see into 4th Street today. The bathroom, ADA accessible, and, then, the back pop-up room I just want to call out, because it doesn't look like there is a lot of shelves. That's because those are mainly going to be floating shelves where artists can come in, bring in their artwork. We can have rotating artists sharing their work, having it available for commission, that sort of thing. So, it is much more of a flex space based on that need. And the cafe, again, would be serving really primarily beverages, so coffee, tea, beer, wine, canned drinks. And, then, I'm bringing in local pastries. So, not looking at bringing food trucks, looking at smaller, you know, like I go and pick up loaves of bread and things in the morning and that would be available through the cafe. I just want to speak briefly in relation to parking. So, we did a little bit of a study over the last -- really from the end of April through middle of June, just collecting photos of this area. So, again, I -- I walk this route often. It's, like I said, a block and a half from my house and we just took -- took photos to see, you know, how much space is actually available on Pine throughout the day. What we saw consistently is there are about 15 plus spaces available on Pine between 2nd and 5th Street and, then, we also are working with the Meridian Gathering and Resource Center, which is off of 3rd Street and Pine and they have about eight to ten public parking spaces as well. They are not open most of the evening. So, they are actually really okay with us leveraging their space as well. So, I wanted to call that out. Additionally, there is still, you know, the parking that we use today off Idaho, off of Main. The line of thinking, again, being we don't want you to just come to the bookstore and leave, we want you to, you know, live in the area, walk to the bookstore, ride your bike to the area or to stay a while, have a dinner, hang out, be here. Anything else on parking? And this is just kind of that illustration today of where the project is. That street parking along Pine. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 13 of 79 Additionally we have public transportation, so that, as you should know, the new Pine 30 route is available throughout the day. They are expecting to continue to expand that, but right now they have Monday through Friday availability. One of the things that I also noted in their upcoming expected changes is more service between Caldwell, Nampa and Meridian and I just actually learned this past week -- I don't know if you saw, but the Caldwell branch of Rediscovery Books just closed -- or is announcing they are closing. So, we know that those people are going to still need to get books. So, they are going to be coming through Meridian, as well as going into Boise to get books and we are potentially another destination that they have along the way. Oh. And I just saw this in the state of the -- the State of the City update that you all did, that the new Villages at -- the apartments at The Village of Meridian are expected as well and those would be connecting to the existing bus routes. So, the goal is, again, to make this a place where it's not that you have to just drive here, you have other options to get here as well. And one more comment in relation to traffic and parking. Another option, again, is walking or biking, so you have that option as well. We are going to have bike racks installed in the place and we are also going to have an incentive program. So, if you have ever been to the botanical gardens, if you take alternative transportation they will give you like a voucher to come back; right? So, same kind of concept here is it will go toward getting points on our loyalty system where you can -- again just incentivizing taking alternative modes of transportation to get to the establishment. Deliveries. So, this is one of the questions that came up in the -- in the meeting with the Commissioners and I thought this was really interesting as well. People are asking around, you know, what kind of shipments is this going to be. Are you going to have large trucks, are you going to have like big delivery vans, that sort of thing. So, I wanted to kind of break it into two categories. So, one, we have our book inventory, which we order on a monthly basis. That's delivered within Monday through Friday time frame from our distributor. That comes in with a smaller Amazon sized truck today or, you know, through USPS, so that's pretty small. And, then, the other would be if we are getting beverages. So, today we -- we are looking to partner with Loose Screw, as well as like Earth Beverage Co, which is a -- a nonalcoholic beverage company and those are actually so small and local we wouldn't be needing a big Budweiser truck to come in. It would be us working with those local vendors, going to them and picking up those beverages with our staff. This is my favorite part. So, from the day before the last hearing we -- we had a person write in or call in, because he didn't have e-mail and he used to live across the street from this property and what we found out was not only was this property he ended up owning later in his life, but it was actually home to Nancy Mary Sage. Who of you haven't heard of Nancy Mary Sage? Okay. Ashley has. Some of you have as well. But so she was a -- she was born during -- right after the 1905 earthquake in San Francisco. She lost her mother in that. Her father couldn't actually manage having two children, so he sent them to Idaho to live here. So, she was taken on by her great aunt, whose name was Pearl and her sister was actually adopted into a family in Boise because she was healthier. They thought Nancy wasn't going to do well. Well, Nancy ended up surviving and thriving and she got her high school diploma at 21 , a little late in the game, but she moved with her and her son from outside Banks -- they lived in like a little trailer and, then, they moved to Meridian in the 1950s. She eventually became the junior librarian for the Occident Club, which, if you didn't know, is the original starting Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 14 of 79 point from the Meridian Library. She eventually became the primary librarian for 20 years. She is in a lot of the original historic documents about their meeting notes. She would give tallies about, you know, how many books were checked out and she helped bring forward new ideas. They sent her to Boise to get library training and she came back with this idea of The Friends of the Meridian Library, which is the fundraising arm that we know today and we still leverage. She also helped promote and establish the Meridian Library District, which is, as you know, the -- the zoning -- or the specific and unique district -- tax district for the library. And she lived on -- at 909 East 4th Street. This was her property. I had the privilege of talking to her son Darrell, who is 76 years old, over the last two weeks. He sent me countless e-mails, countless photos, and he said this is exactly what she would have wanted. She had bookstore -- bookshelves from floor to ceiling everywhere she could in the house. And we talked a lot about, you know, honoring our history and our tradition. I just -- I couldn't have even begun to imagine this would be the story of this property. So, with that I want to just thank you, again, for taking the time to consider our proposal for the reason today. We really want to be Meridian's independent bookstore to give you those opportunities to see things you wouldn't see before and we are here for questions. Thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, questions? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. The presentation was very helpful in comparison to what is in the file, so thank you very much for bringing all these extra details. Major: Sure. Perreault: So, as you know, as you addressed, there is a lot of public concern about the -- about parking, about noise and whatnot and my question for you is can't -- two things. One, in the drawings you had said there is one parking space that's for employee parking. It looks like that area has more room for parking than the drawing currently shows. So, is that -- is that for a specific reason or is the drawing just not proportionate? Major: There is a pole -- a power pole right there, so that is the one spot in the alleyway. I should just add as well that I'm expecting to be the primary employee for the first year and I won't be taking up that spot. So, that would be ideally where we have that second employee come in. Yep. Perreault: And so you will only have one employee, you won't have shifts or -- Major: The goal is to move toward that, but initially it will primarily be me and, then, as we add in that person would -- the additional person would be able to take up that spot. We -- we are also looking at whether or not we split it to have someone come in Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 15 of 79 specifically for like the readings and events to manage that and they would be taught and trained to be parking on the farther location, so parking closer toward the -- off of Pine or that direction. Perreault: So, any -- any retail shop like this in a big city has to have this conversation; right? Major: Right. That's right. Perreault: And so a lot of big cities do not even, you know, notify patrons of where they can park, they just have to kind of figure it out. So, I understand what you are attempting to do, but not all of the retail shops are in residential area, which is really where the concern is coming from. And so you had said that you found approximately 15 spots on Pine, you know, in your research. Is that at a given time of day or is that an average of various times of day? Major: Yeah. So, we actually kind of surveyed the spot from mid afternoon, late afternoon and evening, and so that was consistent. There were, obviously, times where there was less, but I would say there is 12 to 15 spots consistently across the times and we have some photos as well for that. Yeah. Perreault: Two more questions. So, how do you intend on clearly notifying patrons of where they would park? And, then, also can you talk about the noise concern. So, are you going to have bands? You know, how would this -- let's say that we have a neighbor that likes to have friends over a lot, any one of us. Major: Sure. Perreault: Is the noise level going to be greater than that? Is it going to be just a lot of talking? Is there going to be -- you know, just kind of give us a flavor for what that is going to feel like. You already have the fence up, so there is the privacy. Staff has recommended additional landscaping. What is reasonable to expect for your neighbors? Major: Yeah. So, I think we, obviously, have to take in Idaho climate into that consideration; right? So, realistically, we are not going to have outdoor events year around. It's just not really feasible here. But in the -- in the nicer months, which I would say like April to end of September, we would have small events. Those would all be ticketed. Even if they are free events they are all ticketed today -- or would be ticketed, meaning they have to sign up ahead of time. And, then, again, looking for it to be like if you have a family gathering in your backyard, right, you are going to have some people -- you are going to have some people laughing, but you also our respectful of your neighbors and respectful of the people around you. We live on the corner of Carlton and 3rd, so we live right by the Cole Valley practice fields and we -- we know, you know, when they have a game going on; right? It's very obvious. But at the same time it doesn't bother us, because we also know like we are living in the area, it's -- it's within Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 16 of 79 their right to have that space as well as -- generally people are respectful. The only times we have had issues are once or twice when someone's accidentally parked in front of our driveway. So, all that to say is I think generally, like a family gathering, ticketed events and, then, again, not really live loud music, thinking more like acoustic guitar, if anything. I also actually am a yoga instructor. I teach at Main Street Market during the summer usually and I will teach a yoga class, but it's nice to have like that acoustic music. It's not a live loud band. Yeah. Simison: Council, any additional questions for the applicant? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Thanks for the presentation, Chelsea. I can tell you are very passionate and enthusiastic about your business and it just comes through in your presentation. I wish the Council just had to decide if we love the idea of an independent bookstore in downtown Meridian, I think it would probably be a unanimous yes. A couple of my questions for you. First, how integral is beer and wine service to the success of your business? Major: So, I would say it's secondary. I definitely know that looking at the history and even just looking at what is happening to Rediscovered right now, if you don't have a reason for people to stay around you don't see as much in terms of sales and people, you know, can continue to stay there and spend more time. Now, that being said, we still do offer online -- I don't know if I mentioned that, but we actually have today where you can get audio books subscriptions through us, as well as you can order any book online and have it shipped to your door. We love both of those options, but we really want the physical element, we want that community space. So, I think long story short, beer and wine will supplement that. We are looking at thin margins regardless. It's a new and used bookstore so we are making more than used bookstores. Used bookstores really struggle. But even with new bookstores today we are looking at in the first three years barely, you know, staying in the green. So, beer and wine does help that, as well as having programming and reasons for people to continue to come back and be there for a minute. Cavener: Awesome. Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: So, I love your layout of your building and I think east Old Town is a really special part of our community and certainly that's why you -- you live there and you want to open your business and so forgive me if this question is coming -- not about your specific business, it's not about do we like the idea of this bookstore -- Major: Yes. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 17 of 79 Simison: -- it's the rezone request and so as a Council Member I'm thinking long term about what this rezone means. So, can you talk to me a little bit about how this specific location is integral to the success of your business, because of the rezone request, because of its proximity to existing residential, I'm trying to kind of wrap my head around how -- why this spot is necessary for you to be successful in -- in -- in your business endeavors. Major: Yes. So, based on a lot of existing bookstores we are seeing over 400 new bookstores in the U.S. in the last year and the ones that continue to stick around are the ones that, one, own the building and, two, they have a very close proximity to downtown. So, that was from the get go, two of the -- the main things that I had when we are looking at this phase of -- of the business. In addition to that, I -- I have been to and experienced bookstores of all shapes and sizes and, you know, I have -- I have traveled the U.S. and every time I go to a city I go to the bookstore, I want to see what the bookstore looks like. And the ones that continue to thrive and have been there for ten plus years generally are ones that aren't just along the main strip or don't have a component that's a cafe community space. So, for me it was a no brainer that I wanted it to be in an old home, I wanted it to be some historic significance. I didn't know what that historic significance would be. And within a certain size as well. So, I looked at spaces that were smaller than 12 to 15 hundred square feet. Cavener: Mr. Mayor, one more if I may. Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Can you just talk to us about hours of operation and hours for events? When would you anticipate, you know, worst case scenario how late would you be open and operating with either an event or some type of an outdoor activity? Major: Yeah. So, initially, we were trying to stay in line with what we are seeing with the downtown Meridian today. So, we see a lot of shops that are open on Wednesday through Saturday, Thursday through Sunday, so we would align with that Thursday to Sunday is what we were recommending. The 12:00 to 9:00 p.m. gives a lot of people the opportunity to come if they have time in the afternoon or if they are coming for an evening event. Now, longer term what we want to do is actually move to a 12 hour spread, so 10:00 to 10.00. That way we are hitting an early crowd as well who maybe want to come for a coffee meet up, work on a business plan, as well as doing events. Events generally go from 7.00 to 9.00 and we would plan to be closed by 10:00 now. We would, obviously, work with the -- the -- the group that wants to come in and have those events, because a lot of those would not be us putting them on, they would be bringing in local groups. And in addition to that, we also partner with existing businesses as well; right? So, if we wanted to do a larger scale event we wouldn't be doing it at our space, we would be doing it at Hinge and we would be doing it at a different venue. Cavener: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 18 of 79 Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: I would like to follow up on the hours of operation question. So, are we to understand that you would have it open to 10:00 p.m. every evening, except Sunday or are you only wanting to keep it open late for the evenings in which you have the events? Major: So, we were saying for the initial -- I want to say this 12 to 18 months that we would be doing 12:00 to 9:00 p.m. for Thursday through Sunday and, then, moving to expand to a larger timeline, again, based on usage, based on interest, based on need. So, I would -- to your point I would expect that as we are doing events we would want to adjust to slowly build out that timeline. But I also know that it doesn't make a lot of sense to keep changing hours, because that does confuse the customers and you want to show that you are continuing to be there and are dependable and reliable. So, we would start with that abbreviated schedule and, then, over the next 12 -- so, looking a year plus out we would look to expand that. Simison: Council, any additional questions? All right. Thank you very much. Mr. Clerk, I'm going to turn this over to you, because I'm sure we have a few people who want to speak. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. First is Mert Logue and he has provided a handout for everyone. Logue: Good evening, Mayor, City Council. The neighborhood has -- has asked me to speak on their behalf and, then, tonight and as the spokesman. I do have a video that we will try to play while I'm just going through this, but I will get started. Simison: First of all if you can start with your name and address for the record. Logue: Mert Logue. 404 East Pine. Simison: Thank you. Logue: My name is Mert Logue. I'm the neighborhood spokesman. The neighborhood strongly opposes this proposed rezone in the small 1 ,100 square foot, including the cellar, which is approximately 800 square feet is available for high traffic retail on the main floor and of which a minimum of 23 square foot will be needed to comply with the ADA accessible restroom. For a high traffic retail bookstore, yoga, food, outside mic where beer and wine will also be served, with an occupancy expectation of 50 to 60 patrons, plus employees with the potential hours of operation from 6:00 a.m. in the morning until 2:00 a.m. the following day. The neighborhood is asking respectfully for the preservation of the family, safety of the community and quality of life of the residential area that directly affects the neighborhood of Old Town and, then, in turn, that the applicant's request is denied. We have two videos I would like to review, along Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 19 of 79 with some pictures of the applicant's property. We wanted to give you a perception of how far this house really is from the Old Town core of Meridian. The first video starts traveling east on Pine across Meridian Road, Main Street, 1st Street and 2nd, referred to as the core of Old Town and, then, transitions beyond 2nd Street to 3rd Street and 4th, et cetera, into residential Old Town. You can clearly see where you leave the core and move into the residential area of Old Town. The second video shows the applicant's property is primarily surrounded by homes and those -- of those in the community that have lived in Old Town for the atmosphere and quality of life that they have enjoyed for many years. Many new families are -- are there now enjoying Old Town Meridian, where they can live and walk to the core of Old Town, where the parks, restaurants, late night entertainment, shopping, hairstyling, barber shops and many other businesses, very similar to the Meridian Village or Hyde Park, or Old Town Boise. The second video also shows the alleyway directly to the north that runs between it and the neighboring property. You can see how congested it is and presenting a real concern for safety and the additional traffic that the high frequency retail will bring at levels this area was never intended to be subjected to, as well as the very limited parking. One spot in the back for the -- for an employee and two in the front, one of which would be needed for ADA compliance. Our understanding is Old Town core is Main Street, 1st Street and, eventually, 2nd Street, but the rest of Old Town is to be residential and some light office space for businesses and hours of operation that don't displace those that live in Old Town. Parking, for example, should not be cannibalized for a high traffic retail bookstore or food beverage, including beer and wine, with hours of operations to potentially go into 2:00 a.m. in the morning, not to mention the thought of allowing alcohol and its distribution to a densely populated residential area. The residents and families currently enjoy a wonderful safe, family oriented community that fits the Old Town plan of life, work and two to three blocks away the core for enjoyment and play. Old Town core is perfect for the -- and the appropriate place for this applicant's business, not the residential live-work of Old Town. This is very clear difference and the video clearly demonstrates this. At the neighborhood meeting the applicant stated beer and wine would be a main income stream with the books, yoga, mic night to draw people in. With beer and wine and no food prepared, it is more of a bar disguised as a bookstore. This brings up the question of the applicant's plan to address Idaho Code 11.05.01.021.01. We hope that it will be asked by the Council and addressed by the applicant tonight is this intended to be a family friendly environment or not? The beer and wine license code also states that you can't serve alcohol within 300 feet of a church. The church at 3rd and State is less than 300 feet and has several services of educational classes of kids during the week and Sundays. The applicant also is within 500 feet of school grounds and another church within 400 feet. It is clear this is not the right business for this residential area. We are aware of the city -- the -- the City of Meridian can still grant beer and wine license, setting aside the Idaho State law and what Ada county have declared as a bad idea by code to put a distribution point for alcohol next to a church, which traditionally sits in the middle of a residential area, just like the ones in the neighborhood we are discussing tonight. We hope that the Mayor's recent address that emphasizes the importance of infrastructure, community partnership, public safety and keeping Idaho unified in its values would never approve such a selfish act for profit. Especially when the alcohol you could all -- especially when Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 20 of 79 the alcohol is already available a few blocks away where it should be in Meridian Old Town core. Parking is a huge issue for the residents who have been there for years and taking care of their places, paid their taxes and contributed to this community and neighborhood, why would the commissioners and the city approve a business that they know will cannibalize, displace residents that have been using this limited park -- public parking for years that has been intended. Imagine even if only once an elderly resident who is disabled, depending on a parking spot being available right in front of their home is now displaced and has to park blocks away. This is specifically what the ADA -- what the ADA is about to provide for and protect those who are disabled. Think about that for a minute. It was brought up at the last meeting the applicant had implied the permissions of parking from the churches and Masonic Hall in the area. This is not true. We spoke to both the churches, the Masonic Hall, none of them approved giving away any of their parking. For them parking is already a problem and they have also relied on public parking now to accommodate their needs. The Masonic Hall lot is even posted as a tow away zone after 6:00 p.m., as well as the business lots directly to the north of them. The church within 300 feet stated they had talked with the applicant about opening the bookstore. However, the applicant had left out that they had intended to serve beer and wine at the bookstore. They are applying for rezoning because it doesn't fit this area. It doesn't fit the Old Town residential live-work vision. They are asking to put food and beverage, including serving beer and wine, in the Old Town residential neighborhood when it's clear it belongs in the core. The Mayor in the city address stated family safety, quality of life and responsible growth in his vision for Meridian. Rezoning this little house for this type of business does not meet that vision. It's not safe for the kids in this neighborhood. It's not about the quality of life for the families that live there. It's about two individuals forcing and imposing themselves on a neighborhood with the city's blessing and we are asking you not to give it. In conclusion, in the previous P&Z meeting residents were told change is coming and we need to accept it. That's code for you don't have a voice. This has already been decided. You will not be heard. This is just a formality. The box is checked. We have had our meeting, so shut up, go home, change or get out of Old Town. We understand charge is -- change is coming. We also understand that Old Town is -- has a core. It's downtown involving Meridian Road, Main Street, 1st and eventually 2nd. The core should not be bleeding past 2nd, past 3rd, into 4th Street, displacing Old Town residents and families. Keep the core the core and the residential as it is. After all, is not the goal to preserve Old Town? It was also mentioned that one of -- which was one of the P&Z commissioners that they don't deal in what ifs. Well, we beg to differ. If city management doesn't deal with what if we wouldn't need building permits, building codes, fire hydrants, firefighters, police officers, sprinkler suppression systems, ADD -- ADA compliance. That's why there is this process. What ifs are important for the safety of our kids, families, schools, churches and community. You are in the what if business. It is part of your job and you certainly have some what if's that need to be considered here tonight. At the last meeting people spoke for the applicant that weren't even from Meridian. They -- they talked about making this little -- where this little house is a Hyde Park. Hyde Park was established in 1890 as its own city separate from Boise and later it was annexed in. It was also -- it also has not crept into the residential area. It stayed in its own core for 133 years. Just like we already have here, the Old Town core of Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 21 of 79 Meridian was established in 1891 and declared a village in 1903. This is not the right location for this type of retail traffic. This is a place to distribute alcohol being disguised as a bookstore without adequate parking, asking to be placed in a residential area within 300 feet of a church, 500 feet of school grounds. It does not fit the Old Town residential feel. However, it does fit the scope of Old Town core of Meridian. That's where it needs to be. And there are places in the core that are available. We are asking you to respectfully -- to seriously consider everything that we have said here tonight. There are legitimate safety concerns, parking concerns. It's the wrong location. Wrong type of business for this Old Town neighborhood. Hopefully we are not just a box that was checked. Hopefully the most impacted by this in this community and neighborhood testifying here tonight do have a voice and it was given -- and has given you what you need to turn down this applicant's request for rezoning down for something that doesn't belong where they want to put it. We ask, again, that you vote no on this application for rezoning. Thank you. Simison: Thank you. You probably are going to want to stick around. We may have some questions for you. Council, questions? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. I appreciate you coming and sharing your concerns very much. I want to understand -- I want to kind of get more specific on a couple of the concerns. First in regard to serving beer and wine, can you help me understand how you see this as different from let's say the Jacksons liquor store that's right next to the candy shop, that's right next to the Boys and Girls Club, or how it's different from Vintage 61, which is a block from the -- from the -- the Cole Elementary School and, then, the Loose Screw that's going in in the old funeral home that's right next door to the Cole Elementary School? Can you help me understand how this is different from those? Maybe they are not residential, but children are there every day of the week. Harvest Church has a school and so there is children there every day of the week, morning noon and night. And, then, Elementary -- Meridian Elementary sits right behind some of these businesses in Old Town -- in the core I should say. So -- so, help me understand and distinguish between what they are going to be doing and those businesses and does it have to do -- is the concern more about too much alcohol consumption? So, if the applicant -- I'm not advocating for anything, I just want to understand. If the applicant were to limit the amount of drinks that could be purchased by a customer to two does that solve some of the concern? Like is -- so, help us understand if you were to create solutions for this what those would look like. Logue: I think I -- I think a couple things. One is you are talking about a bunch of businesses that are already in the commercial and zoned for the proper -- for where they are at in the area. They are already zoned correctly. As far as stores that sell alcohol and liquor, they -- they are -- they are amenities that sell medical supplies, food and all kinds of other stuff, of which if you have children walking into you are not -- you Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 22 of 79 are not -- you are not there for an evening of beer and wine and read a book, you are -- you are -- you are there to go in and get groceries and, yeah, I'm going to pick up some beer and wine and, by the way, you are going to have to check your ID at the door to be sold that. So, when you get into a restaurant environment where you are serving beer and wine, serve -- serving food for patrons that's -- that's a totally different environment and there are different laws and regulations that apply to that, as Idaho codes states out. So, I think there is a very different look at that. If this was going to be a retail bookstore then -- then have hours of operations that don't displace the people that live there and sell books. If -- if you are trying to supplement your income with beer and wine and -- and make this a different thing, I -- I don't think it's appropriate to have it in a residential area. You know, I'm -- I have been in business for 30 years and -- and the number one rule about business and success is location location location and that's what I'm talking about what if. It makes no sense to reserve -- to -- to rezone something. If I'm going to be the City Council I'm going to want to see the business plan. I want to see how this is going to make money, how it's going to be successful. I'm not going to okay something that gets to go in there and, then, it fails and, then, the -- and, then, the people around the area need to -- got to deal with that. You know, this applicant's talked about respecting their neighbors. They don't respect their neighbors. They don't take care of their property now. You saw the weeds and stuff that are around that place. It's not being managed or maintained. So, it -- it's hours of operation and it's -- it's -- it's -- it's applying adequate parking for the type of retail business you -- you were wanting to do without cannibalizing for somebody else. It shouldn't be displacing the residents that live there. They -- they -- they pay their taxes, too. They were there with the intent of what the city had had from years ago and now we are going to go in and say, oh, well, you just need to get used to -- we are going to put a bookstore here and their patrons can take those because it's public parking and that's why, you know, I don't understand as a -- as a citizen of Meridian the -- the fact that that's not even being considered -- and I appreciate you asking these questions, because, you know, for me if it's going to be a business in that residential area it should be something that's by appointment only. There is a business that -- for example that's -- I think it's on 5th. It's a bridal dress business and it's by appointment only and they do some other things there, but they have their own parking. It's off the main -- off Pine. They have their own parking in the back. They don't have to rely on their neighbors parking or public parking. They -- they don't have to depend on that. This is going to have to depend on that. There is two spots out front and that phrase in the pictures looks nice and big, but you can't have a -- I have got a Ram one ton dually that's going to take up most of it and you might get a smart car behind that. Nope. That won't fit in with the frontages on this building. And, then, the alleyway is -- it's right there, you know. So, if you are asking me what's the solution for this would be for this applicant, it sells books, you know, be open in hours that -- when people get home that live there aren't being displaced by the parking that is going to be required for them to have their retail to do. They are -- they have said they expect that their patronage is going to be 50 to 60 in an 800 square foot building and, then, you have children at night that need to go to bed. They -- they don't need to be listening to guitars or people talking. I -- I got a kick out of that, too. Where we go, well, I have friends over at my house every night and they are there once in a while. Yeah. Every night? I mean if I got a neighbor that's next to me that's out talking Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 23 of 79 in the backyard every night until 10:00 o'clock, I don't think I'm going to tolerate that very long. I'm not going to be happy about that and I shouldn't have to be happy about that. You are not going to put arborvitaes up and create an insulation area that's going to stop all that. So, unless we are going, okay, this is all becoming a commercial application that we want zoned differently for a different purpose for the city of Meridian, then, okay. I have been sitting here trying to figure out what is this really about, this rezoning? What -- it can't be about this. It doesn't make any sense to me, not even from a business standpoint. I -- I mean I -- I guess the emotional draw and the -- the librarian and, you know, bookstores are great, but we have a library and the bookstore could be moved simply to the core and, then, it's open for what they want to do and think it would be very successful, but where they are wanting to put it, I -- I just don't think it's going to make it. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. I appreciate that clarification. I don't want to speak for -- for our staff, but my understanding is that the applicant originally applied for a conditional use permit and staff encouraged them to change it to a rezone, because it actually allows us to put more -- more restrictions, it allows us to have more say in how it would operate. So, that's -- that's really, honestly, the rezone was probably the right call in relationship to our ability to have some oversight on this. Am I -- and I explaining that well? Hersh: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, so they actually applied for a rezone and CUP and the CUP was for the outdoor activity. So, staff -- because of the UDC code they can't have activity outside within 50 to a hundred feet of residential. So, that doesn't work. So, we asked them to withdraw it, so they can only do a temporary use permit through the Clerk's office for 160 days to have events and -- and, then, the beer and wine is actually an accessory to the retail store. That's a permitted use. That goes -- they file an application with the Clerk's office and, then, they will -- it will go through the planning manager for final approval. But it's a permitted use with retail. So, in a sense the CUP we asked them to withdraw, because there can't be outdoor -- a permanent approval for outdoor event center in that location. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, I have a follow-up question. Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Hoaglun: So, a temporary use permit, there -- there can -- there can be restrictions put on that for operation -- different functions of the operation; is that correct? Hersh: Absolutely. Staff can do that. We can limit people. We can say whatever we would like within that temporary use permit. But also the time period that they can -- the latest they will ever be able to go is 11 :00 p.m. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 24 of 79 Perreault: And so if they are not -- if they are not operating within the restrictions that are set, then, that permit expires in 160 days and there is not another one that -- that has to be issued. In other words, how -- how does that work if -- Hersh: So, they have to apply for another one, but they can only do it 160 days per year of a 365 calendar year. Perreault: Okay. Hersh: So, they only get four months a year. Perreault: I see. Okay. So, if -- if they don't follow the limitations of the permit, then, potentially one could be denied, the next -- the next year or how does the clerk's office handle that? Hersh: I'm not sure exactly how to answer it, but I would think code enforcement would be involved in that and there would definitely be some notes about that from the previous year and we would all take a look at that and maybe have further restrictions when they apply again. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: Is it Mr. -- is it Logue? Logue: Logue. Borton: Logue? Logue: Yeah. Borton: Mr. Logue. Thanks for being here. A couple of context questions that will help us in the decision making process. You had indicated you represent an association. Do you represent individuals in the room? Logue: We had a neighborhood meeting and at the neighborhood meeting that there is neighbors that are involved and they -- they said we would -- we would like to, you know, have you -- Borton: Got it. Logue: -- put something together to -- to address the Council. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 25 of 79 Borton: Are there folks in the room here that you are speaking on behalf of? Can you guys raise your hand if -- okay. Just kind of -- it helps us get some context and it looked like eight or so in the room. Can you give us a ballpark of the individuals who aren't present that, as part of the neighborhood meeting, asked you to come speak on their behalf? Logue: There is one family that's not present. They have -- they have actually -- this has pushed them into -- to throw in the towel and they are -- they are leaving. They are -- they are -- they are leaving. Borton: Just a rough number of people is all I'm trying to get. Okay. Sometimes it's 100 sometimes, it's six or seven, so it's helpful to understand that context. The other question -- the history matters. I think we are going to ask a lot of these types of questions in Old Town development and one that is helpful is how long have you lived where you live in Old Town? Logue: So, we have been there ten years and I don't -- I don't necessarily live in Old Town, I'm -- I'm one of the places that were zoned for light commercial and the business that we have operated -- which you saw in the applicant's video actually is where the -- she was talking about the neighbor. So, it's -- it's a light commercial. I don't -- I don't live there. I rent it out. And -- and the people that work there -- Borton: Oh. Okay. Logue: -- they are -- they are there, they have their own parking, they are gone during the day and they don't -- they don't disrupt the neighborhood. They don't take parking spots. Borton: But you don't live anywhere around this project? Logue: Well, I live very close to them at 1316 Manship Drive in Meridian. Borton: Okay. Logue: And I have lived in Meridian for, you know, 30 or more years. Lived in Idaho all my life. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: The reason for the question is, again, it gives us context of whether this is something that personally impacts you, which is very important, and it's equally important if it personally impacts others, not yourself, but you are speaking on their behalf. Trying to get that context, because -- hang on. Hang on. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 26 of 79 Logue: It does impact me from a value position. Borton: Yeah. Understand. Hang on. The reason I asked that question is the comp plan, which was referenced for this property, is -- it has been comp planned and intended to be Old Town and all of the elements that go with Old Town. So, from a long term planning perspective, to have this to be rezoned -- a rezone request to Old Town zoning is consistent with that long term planning. So, the reason for the earlier questions was to know whether or not you participated at all in any of the comp plan public meetings to -- to maybe voice some of your concerns that this shouldn't be comp planned Old Town, it should be something else. So, did you get -- did you participate in any of that process? Logue: So, I did not. I did not. Borton: Okay. Logue: I did not. You know, partially because, you know, not aware of it when there is comp plans and change in rezoning and the intention of Meridian it's -- it's not something that's really put out into the public well enough for -- for everybody to have a great idea of it. Borton: And -- Logue: You know, it's not unless -- unless you have something -- a directed interest in it you are probably not going to participate. But I would kind of refer back to what I -- I talked about earlier where -- there is a right time and place for things. This -- this is -- this is moving two blocks into a residential area. It's surrounded by homes, you know. And if you -- if you go up two blocks you are in -- you are in that -- that core where you are seeing, you know, the flavor of exactly what this business is going to be, you know. Now, whether this is going to be a standout, you know -- you know or this is going to be, you know, something that's to happen, you know, then, you know, I -- I would like to see it -- you make sense as it -- as it moves into it, if that's what -- if that's what the plan is. But I believe also the plan was work-live, not work-live-play. Work -- play is -- you go a few blocks to where that's at, you know. It doesn't make sense. Even like The Village over there is condensed. You have got residential people all around that, but you don't have any of that that bleeds into those residential areas; right? And that's what we are -- that's what we are asking here. We are asking, okay, let's -- we got these people here that invest in business and now we are going to put it over here and say, well, that's kind of in the scope of what we want to do. Well, then, I'm going to say is this the right time for this, because I don't think it is. Borton: Okay. Understand exactly where you are coming from. Thank you. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 27 of 79 Cavener: Bert, again, thanks. I think the Council really does appreciate when neighbors kind of get together and say, hey, let's have one individual kind of address that and, no, not everybody is always comfortable coming up and talking, so I appreciate you being the one to do that and as such you are the one who gets the questions. So, I appreciate you standing up here and kind of address them. I want to touch on something first, because I think it's -- I think it's important for -- for you, because this seems to be something important to you and it's likely because it's important to your neighbors. This belief that we are just checking a box. And I just -- I want to give an opportunity maybe just to talk to you directly to say that -- it sounds like you have lived in Meridian for ten years and I'm glad that you have chosen our community. I think one thing that makes Meridian great is that every issue matters. We argue up here for hours about a project that impacts one or two people, because it's important to us. It is our neighbors. I believe that this process should be a neighborly process and I can tell you are passionate about it. I would -- I would encourage you to be a little more compassionate to your neighbors. I know you really weren't trying to insult them or impugn their motives. I think you kind of did that. So, just giving you a little flavor, a little feedback, something I think that you may want to address when this meeting's over. My question for you is when you played that video I noticed at the end that there -- there was a -- appeared to be a business with a bunch of vans. Logue: Yeah. Cavener: And I don't know if that's -- if that's your property. Logue: That's my property. Cavener: So, help me -- this is where -- I think this is where the disconnect is that you can help me, is that a lot of your testimony was about this should be a residential area and, again, I was a paperboy in -- in that property in the early '90s. So, it's changed since I was -- I was younger. But it didn't appear to be that was a residential use, that appeared to be a commercial use. So, I'm just -- I'm trying to wrap my head around why is your commercial use acceptable and their commercial use not? Logue: It's not going to be serving beer and wine. It's operational hours. It -- it -- it's done at 5:00 or 6:00 o'clock. That's it. The -- the commercial vans that are parked there are -- are in our -- on our property. They are -- they are not -- they are not cannibalizing other people's parking or public parking. Cavener: It's public parking. Yeah. Logue: That piece of property when I bought it was horrific. You can -- you can ask my neighbor. They are here tonight. I -- I -- I have -- I have -- I have invested 45,000 dollars and probably close to that in sweat equity to make that place look like it looks now. It's nice. And my lawn, you know, I do. I -- I take care of my father who is 92 who also lives in -- in Meridian, Idaho, all of his life. I take care of my place. So, I take care Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 28 of 79 of my place, my lawn, and I have a business with 126 people that I work at probably 80 hours a week. Logue: Sure. Cavener: So, I get a little frustrated when somebody buys a piece of property as an investment, which is what I assume this is to, put a business in. It tells me that they respect their neighbors, but, then, they let it deteriorate. Look at the pictures that were presented in the -- in the P&Z. They are beautiful, because, you know, the person there before improved that property. They took care of the property and now it's not being taken care of. And, then, they are asking, well, just trust us, we will do the right thing. Trust us, we will do the right thing. Well, you are not doing it now, so why should I trust you to do it later? And so I'm not going to apologize for anything I have said to this point and in my notes here I did basically point out the fact that it's -- Old Town was residential light commercial and we are not -- we are not talking about that. We are -- we are talking about a cafe, beverages, beer and wine and a bookstore. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Nikki Miles. Simison: And while some of you may have testified at Planning and Zoning, when you come forward state your name and address for the record and you will be recognized for three minutes. Miles: How many? Simison: Three minutes. Miles: Nikki Miles. 505 East Pine. I have lived in my home under a year. I have owned it under two years. I mirror some of the sentiments you just heard. I'm going to stay focused on a couple of key factors that you are very much aware of already. Okay. The occupancy. Well, I'm hoping tonight we will -- we will just slow down this whole process and take into consideration both -- both parties, both entities involved, the homeowners in the area and the applicant. And when you consider R-15 rezoned, that tells you how many homes and how close they are today. Three contiguous property owners. Outdoor venue with an outdoor speaker system right up against their windows, their bedrooms, their backyards and third generation of -- of children, especially this time of year with summer outdoor playing. The occupancy of 50 or more was determined by -- based on mercantile. What this is -- reconsider or consider this. This is an assembly use with some retail per the last meeting. So, is the load factor 15 or is it 60? The outdoor speaker system use is in R-15. It affects the property owners of R-15. The commercial is contiguous to historic residential use and every affected property owner and renter has the inherent right to the peaceful enjoyment of their property and, likewise, the applicants, if approved, need to be approved based on what's existing today and is not likely to change anytime soon. So, don't pit the folks in the Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 29 of 79 neighborhood that will be impacted by this against the applicant and don't pit the applicant against them or have to fight for their survival. What would be real ideal is if the residents in the area could go in and enjoy a book or buy a trinket or an art piece made by a local artist. Simison: And if you can complete your testimony, please. Miles: And don't get the Meridian Police Department involved in this having to respond to late night noise and seven day a week -- up to seven days a week of alcohol consumption. So, slow it down and find a balance in what's going on here. Simison: Thank you. Council, questions? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thank you, Ms. Miles. Appreciate you coming. I appreciate the sentiment about, you know, trying to find a middle ground. So, a couple of ideas; right? I mean the -- the good news is -- like at least a bookstore crowd doesn't seem like a boisterous crowd generally speaking; right? In terms of what you would expect to see. The applicant has said that they are willing to limit their own hours. They are willing to limit their hours from 10:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. We could certainly memorialize that in an agreement with the city. Would things like a -- a limitation on the hours of operation, perhaps an agreement if the applicant was willing to -- say they couldn't use like amplified sound during certain hours, would, you know, those kind of changes -- what kind of changes do you think would make a good compromise? Miles: I will answer that in consideration of the fact that I'm one block away. I have a whole other set of issues, like IPO or XPO, freight and -- Harbor Freight after dark towing three trailers through the neighborhood exceeding 25 miles an hour. So, that's a whole -- whole different situation. But that sets the tone for degrading the neighborhood and it sets the tone for sensitivity to just more of what's to happen. Yes, I -- I would propose that -- especially to my neighbors over here, that you all get in one room and decide that it's not going to be until 10:00 p.m. and most especially on weekdays. Sundays are still sacred. Limited hours. No outdoor speaker system. It's a limit -- very limited space. But, yes, a bookstore sounds very fine in the area. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Because what I heard from the applicant was that they were willing to impose upon themselves and so I'm assuming what -- usually what the City Council does in these situations is we find -- we put together like a development agreement that the city is a party to and typically we have like restrictions that we put in place and so in this Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 30 of 79 case it sounded to me like the applicant was willing to limit their hours Tuesday through Sunday from 10:00 until 10:00 and that initially they wanted to limit their hours from 12:00 to 9:00, Thursday through Sunday. So, you know, I -- I heard in the previous testimony this fear that this would be open until 2:00 a.m. That's not what I'm hearing. Miles: I didn't hear that either. Strader: Yeah. And -- and, then, Mr. Mayor, if you don't mind. Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: And, then, you know, some of the other things you just mentioned, like hours for deliveries, that's something that we could discuss as well or limitations on sound amplification past a certain hour, because I'm just trying to, you know, prompt some discussion and dialogue about what kinds of compromises would make this fit better with the neighborhood. Miles: Parking is -- is another issue that I don't see a compromise in. I mean even though I might be on foot most of the time in the area, I just don't see -- it's a residential neighborhood. That -- that location is outside the Old Town parking designation. I mean per your map on the website -- on your website. The -- 4th is not -- there is no pre already designated parking for the Old Town businesses. Retail. This -- this is assembly, with some retail. It was stated in the last meeting that the -- the -- the assembly, beer and wine had -- that the retail of books -- the space is so limited inside that that couldn't support itself. Strader: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Yeah. You know, I will ask the applicant in their closing remarks to address how many customers they think will realistically be in the bookstore and how many customers they would expect at an event. Miles: Wouldn't you as a business owner -- I mean they can speak for themselves, but would you not, as a business person, take advantage of every allowable parameter. So, if you are an assembly -- like I said earlier, what's the load factor? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: I don't want to speak for the applicant in terms of their business plan, but, you know, just from common sense, like I -- it stretches the imagination to imagine 50 Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 31 of 79 patrons descending on a retail independent bookstore at one time, you know, during -- during a single day if it's not an event; right? Miles: It's not a bookstore. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thank you. That concludes my questions. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Carlyn Crow. Simison: Good evening. Crow: Hello, Mr. Mayor and City Council. My name is Carlyn Crow and I live at 917 Pueblo Street. There are three reasons that I am in favor of authorizing rezoning for Fourth Street Books. First is it's a community centered approach. Second is increasing walkability for the City of Meridian. And third is supporting local businesses. I'm a public high school teacher at a Title One school in the Treasure Valley and I had the great pleasure of meeting the Fourth Street Books founder Chelsea Major at our high school career day. She very very generously volunteered her time to be a speaker at our high school career day, all the way out in Wilder. So, she took much time out of her schedule to drive all the way to Wilder and give a fantastic presentation to my students. She was eager to bring the magic of books and entrepreneurship to our small community. Our school actually doesn't have a librarian, so this was their first chance to meet a professional book lover, which was so exciting for the students. They were so excited to put stickers from the bookstore on their phones and ever since career day back in March they have been asking me, Ms. Crow, when is that bookstore opening? Can we take a field trip there? Chelsea has continued centering community as a core value of her business by doing pop-ups and events with other community creatives, establishing a community book club and advocating for community libraries. Fourth Street Books will be a beacon for book lovers and a vibrant community space for all Meridian citizens. Scholarly research from health, economic and psychological studies show that increasing a walkability score in a city has numerous social benefits for its citizens. Impacts of increasing a city's walkability score include a rise in average citizen happiness, reduction in crime, increased levels of physical activity and increased accessibility for economically disadvantaged households. Expanding the business zoning in Meridian, particularly rezoning near residential areas, will allow for more businesses to be walkable or bikeable and for Meridian's patrons and to improve the city's walkability score. I have not purchased a book from a mega retailer like Barnes and Nobles, Target, Amazon or et cetera in at least a decade. I buy all of my books from local independent bookstores, much like Fourth Street Books. Many, many, many years ago for a grade school project I learned that my hometown of Austin, Texas, our famous slogan Keep Austin Weird, actually began in 2003 as a campaign to support local businesses much like Fourth Street Books here in Meridian. The president of Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 32 of 79 Austin's largest independent bookstore, Book People, aka my favorite place in the whole world, was the leader of the campaign. The Austin Independent Business Alliance is still running strong today, as is the local independent bookstore Book People. I believe that Fourth Street Books has the same power and passion to unite Meridian local businesses together and develop Meridian's work-live-play atmosphere and culture. Thank you for your time and your support of local businesses and literacy in the Treasure Valley. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Overton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Overton. Overton: Quick question. You don't live in Meridian; is that correct? Crow: That is correct. Overton: So, when you come to this bookstore how are you getting here? Crow: I will probably drive I guess. Yeah. That's a great question. Simison: All right. Thank you very much. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Paige Tollman. Paige. Okay. You are good. Tollman: My name is Paige Tollman. I actually live in Caldwell, 3124 Wright Avenue in Caldwell. I'm a supporter of this bookstore, mostly for -- I'm an educator -- educator and I teach parenting and pregnant teens in the Boise area and the love of books is very small for these students and so just having that opportunity for kids to be able to go to a bookstore and -- and pick up older new books is an opportunity for them and besides the beer and wine, obviously, they can't -- you know, this is not just for adults, it's for the community and if we want our children to be successful and enjoy literature we need to give them the opportunity to be able to go where they can afford to go and maybe you can't go to a public library if they are out of zone and can't afford to get a library card. It's just a great -- great opportunity for them. Simison: Council, any questions? All right. Thank you. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Sean Evans. Evans: Thank you. Sean Evans. I'm the President and CEO of the Meridian Chamber of Commerce and I represent a contingent of -- of Meridian businesses here in the community. Mr. Mayor, City Council Members, thank you for your time. The Meridian Chamber of Commerce supports the Fourth Street Books rezoning application, primarily because it fits into what was referenced earlier, the city's comprehensive plan for this -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 33 of 79 this area of downtown. We have a very small downtown and the opportunity to expand that downtown area to create more business opportunities, to create spaces for the residents and the visitors alike, to visit to preserve our historical aspect of our community when businesses are willing to invest in the houses in those districts is very important. Anyone that is willing to invest today that will be meeting the need as more density becomes a reality in our downtown is something that I think the City Council should embrace and approve when requested. So, with that thank you very much. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you for being here, Mr. Evans. Next to the city the Chamber of Commerce probably receives the most public comment on what happens in the downtown area I would guess and so have you -- what have you heard from the business owners, if you have heard from any, and also what feedback have you received at the Chamber of Commerce regarding the application? Has it been similar to what we have received here at the city and can you address maybe some of those concerns from -- from the perspective of being an individual who is in downtown every day and that's really what -- you know, that's -- that's your profession is -- is to understand what's happening in downtown. Evans: Yes. Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, my viewpoint is mainly from the business community. I know there is a lot of residents that have concerns that don't necessarily come to the Chamber of Commerce for their -- to voice their concerns, but the business community definitely sees the opportunity to expand the -- the footprint of our downtown to create more walkable space. The -- the goal of downtown is to create more density, to -- I mean there is projects on the -- on the -- the horizon that's going to create more people that live downtown and creating spaces like this you are not going to continue to have the traffic issues and the parking issues, because someone that is living in the Old Town Lofts or in the projects along Broadway, they are going to want to walk to their places. They are going to want to walk to the places where they can get dinner, to get their groceries, to sit down and read a book or to purchase items. So, this goes to the -- the -- the vision of the -- of the downtown of creating more walkability, creating activity space in downtown and the more that these businesses are allowed to create space in downtown the more it's going to attract people to downtown for those options to walk around and be a part of the downtown community. Thank you. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Sean, this is one of those dilemmas that we get in front of us every now and then, things that we desire and -- but how do we go about and make it -- how does it happen and, you know, when we are dealing with development on the outskirts of town we don't like leapfrog development, because it costs more, it -- it has impacts that cause some problems and different things like that and so in my mind I look at this and it seems like it's leapfrog development, but from a business sense and Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 34 of 79 how -- you know, we like to have orderly growth and march out and that's the vision for this area, you know, and if this was on, you know, 3rd Street, 2nd Street, it -- it becomes a whole different conversation, but we are on 4th Street and there are impacts to neighbors where it's not quite seems like ready to -- to have that full development as -- as we progress and it will change, it's -- it's coming and -- and I know the economy is kind of slowed some things down right now, but how do you -- how do you envision development to occur in this area? Is it going to happen like this, here or there, pocket -- we build pockets and say that's okay or should we try to find a different -- different way to do that? Evans: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, the -- the question of growth is it's going to happen and when you can embrace growth that already has a lot of the infrastructure in place -- the video shown by one of the people here tonight clearly defines that Pine Avenue is a main corridor through our downtown area. This zone that's asking to be rezoned is right off of that corridor. We have to start looking at expanding where we can manage that. The applicant has referenced the bus route availability, the -- the walkability of -- from other parking areas in downtown. There is a parking study being conducted right now for downtown that identifies that there is a lot of parking in downtown, they just have to necessarily walk a block or two and that is a change for our downtown, because people are used to just parking directly in front of a business. But that is going to be something that changes. So, expansion of a -- and the -- the following of a comprehensive plan that identifies an adjoining area that is zoned one way, but has an opportunity to be changed to accommodate where a need is is something that the City Council should embrace. Simison: Council, any additional questions? All right. Thank you. Evans: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and thank you, Council Members. Johnson: I think, Mr. Mayor, next is Leslie Major. Josh Evarts. Okay. Thank you. Josh Evarts. Evarts: Mr. Mayor, City Council, my name is Josh Evarts. 303 East State Avenue, Old Town, Meridian. 83642. My comments are this. First of all, I super appreciate the presentation. This is a beautiful concept. You guys have known me too long at this point. I love books. I love history. I love community. I -- I love Old Town. This concept absolutely belongs in Old Town. I just think that the location is not suitable and -- and -- and -- and I think I would like to just offer some comments to that effect. Even under a temporary use permit this property sits in an alley that's kitty corner from my house. So, literally from my grandson's bedroom on the second floor you can see this patio. So, activations -- I don't care about beer and wine and all that kind of stuff, but activations that are happening on that patio after I put my grandson to sleep is just not the -- the -- the -- the best use in this kind of residential setting mid block right off of an alley. My grandson actually is only seven months old right now, but when he's old enough to be a customer I hope at this bookstore, his primary route is an alley for cars that can't go away, because it also is our trash service. So, there is a safety consideration here that Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 35 of 79 this property is not -- to Mr. Hoaglun's comments -- on Pine where we have five foot sidewalks, where we are talking about the -- the -- the -- the main artery is an alley for cars. The parking is a significant consideration. Maybe not today. I live on this block. I'm on it all the time. But I think the approval is a slippery slope for the applicant's use. It -- it -- it's presumptuous to think that -- that the conversion of these residential homes to commercial is going to be happening in any kind of near -- near term and -- and especially with a mid block property like this that's wrapped around residential. I think with the change of zoning what happens in the case of business failure, do we run the risk of flipping properties between uses, especially, again, in this kind of mid block. You know, Mr. Hoaglun talked about, you know, the growth hasn't quite caught up. This is a different consideration. If we are talking about 3rd, we are talking about Pine, we are talking about 2nd, but mid block on 4th I think it's -- I think it's a challenge. I think we should be careful about how we adjudicate Old Town uses and how we shape implementation of the comp plan. It's my understanding currently right now that there is work being done by MDC and our Destination Downtown plan. This is a perfect application to get in front of them that should help shape some of these guiding principles for how we want to develop our downtown. I love this concept. I -- I really would love to see it. I mean every part of me wants to go by Mr. Haxton's property on Idaho Avenue, the old dress shop, and throw these people in there. I mean that -- that's every fiber of my being, because this is the kind of business we want in our Old Town. just think this site's problematic. So, I will stand for questions. Simison: Thank you. Council, questions? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Josh, appreciate your feedback. You're a big champion for downtown. So, as we look at that kind of, you know, along Pine, 4th, 5th, 6th, we see there are already existing businesses that are there. So, businesses that appear, again, from Google Maps -- to appear to take maybe access off alleys. Evarts: Yeah. Cavener: So, kind of to my question I think for the applicant -- or maybe one of the people that's testifying is what do you think separates this business and being different some of the other existing businesses that are already occurring along this corridor? Evarts: Yeah. So, I think the challenge is, Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, is that think that these things have come in piecemeal. I'm probably to blame for this in large part; right? Like I wanted to go have a vibrant active downtown, so I went and built that and this is the unintended consequence of that. I think the challenge is is that these things are -- are happening piecemeal and they are happening in a residential area. Some of these things that you talk about are legacy things that happened, you know, 15, 20 years ago before we had some of the pressures that we are experiencing right Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 36 of 79 now and so it's just tough. You know, it's really, really messy. Like I hear the residents, my neighbors, and their concerns and I empathize with them. I'm one of them. But I'm also a business guy. I own a bar, right, in downtown. Like -- and so -- so, I'm also very, very cognizant and respectful. I work at Cole Valley Christian School, so I love education, I love books and -- and so these are just tough things to wrestle with. I think that there needs to be some serious work in that destination downtown plan as to how we define and I think we need to get very micro with how we deal with roads and streets and -- and what is our -- what is our future, what are we painting here, so that we can really help -- you know, I -- I know that there has been an investment made in this 4th Street. I know architects aren't cheap, so -- but -- but what can we do to better equip businesses that want to come into our Old Town by giving them better guidance, because I don't think the guidance is -- I think the comp plan is fairly broad. I think the existing destination downtown plan provides some great guidelines, but I think we need to get more micro with what are the actual streets, what are the intended goals and -- and shape that. I don't know if I fully answered that. Cavener: You -- Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Not directly, but I -- I -- you are giving me some good flavor kind of what your perspective is, which is -- which is helpful. Because to your point I think it is -- it is hard, right, to say, again, there is -- to your point there is a couple of businesses that have been there for 20 years. Evarts: Yeah. Cavener: They are okay, but, then, this one's not. Or if you are on 3rd Street it would be okay, but on 4th it's not. If you are north of Pine it's okay. If it's south of Pine you are not. I think those are -- I think that -- I think that's a fair perspective to share that we probably need to discuss that more about when it does and doesn't make sense for new businesses to come in. So, I appreciate your feedback for what it's worth. Thank you. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Welcome, Mr. Evarts. Appreciate you being here. Understand your perspective, but if this business was going to be here what kind of compromises do you think would make it more livable as a neighbor? Evarts: Yeah. Strader: Limiting on hours of operation, limitations on amplified sound, things like that. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 37 of 79 Evarts: Yeah. Yeah. Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Strader. It's a great question. Certainly the amplified sound. Like, you know, it -- it -- it -- it -- we are -- we are talking about a residential neighborhood. I would throw in there, again, I intentionally went out there and checked line of sights and stuff like that. I think we have to talk about lighting. I think that -- I think having bright lights -- I don't want to be, you know, forcing residents to -- to go get dark blinds, because they have, you know, people that -- that I think bright lights. I think that this would be a different conversation if this was a -- a -- a bookstore that was, you know, more of an 8:00 to 6:00 kind of thing and didn't have those activations in the evening. I think it would be a different conversation. So, I think an hours of operation is probably appropriate. I think that the -- the parking really is -- you know, it's -- it's -- I know we are in the midst of this parking study. I think that's what makes this kind of a really difficult consideration right now. I know they talked about the applicant having no parking signs in the alley. Humans are going to be humans and we run into this all the time, even with The Vault and Old Town Lofts and stuff like that. There is just an immense amount of pressure that's -- that's happening right now. I think this is a great business model that could have a great activation and have potentially lots of people traveling there, especially with other bookstores closing down, it might become a destination and that's why it needs to be really kind of in the heart of downtown and not sitting mid block in -- in the neighborhood, so -- Simison: One block to the west of you was a facility that had an outdoor space that used to be used quite a bit. I don't even know if it's used much anymore in that regards. Do you know what impact that had on the neighbors? Because that's really an area where you had an outdoor space surrounded by residential, you know, it's 2nd, but 3rd, yet residents on the other side. Just kind of curious from your perspective did you see parking challenges when they did events? Noise challenges? I know that this is a different model, but, yeah, same -- could be a similar concept in some cases. I don't know what type of restrictions -- Evarts: Mr. Mayor, are you talking about the -- the -- the -- the old house that had the -- the -- okay. Yeah. So, a couple -- a couple differences to point out. So, what we are talking about with the temporary use permit is 160 days; right? So, we are talking about that's if -- if I was writing their business plan those are going to be in the summer, right, when I have long hours and -- and -- and people out of school and warm weather. So, this is 160 days. I know that that was -- that space was leased out very infrequently. They didn't have outdoor lights. So, most of their events were during the day. So, there wasn't really an issue of, you know, kind of a party on the patio out there and it's also -- you know, if you think about the businesses that are wrapped around -- Joe's just north of there, you know, they are gone by 6:00. You have got south -- you have got some homes, but -- but not nearly the amount. That's a big lot and there is not nearly the density and it's also on a corner. You know, I think this would be a different conversation if we were talking about 4th and Pine and the actual corner, as opposed to a very, very small property sitting -- you know, sitting mid block off of an alley. So, I -- I never had any problems with -- with any kind of parking for that space, but, again, that went away -- what was it, a year and a half ago, two years ago? So -- and we have Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 38 of 79 experienced a lot of pain. I intended to cause a parking problem and I did. So, there is just more stuff. Simison: I only attended one event there at night with alcohol. Evarts: Oh, really. Simison: With amplified sound. Evarts: Yeah. Simison: You know, all those have been -- I don't know how often they did things. Evarts: Yeah. Simison: That's what I was really trying to do. What is -- what -- what is the impact being a block away that you may have seen or experienced from that activity location? Just trying to get some perspective. That's -- Evarts: Yeah. And, Mr. Mayor, just -- I guess one more comment. I mean we are hearing activation already in Old Town. Like let's not kid ourselves. I hear the raceway, right, at my home; right? And I -- and -- and there is something special about that. You know, it's part of our history. There is -- there is something great about the raceway. Once it's blown up, like it's fully activated -- like the downtown it's cars racing around, it's -- it's -- it's squealing tires. I mean The Vault closes at 10:00, because I don't want to own a bar that's open after 10.00. But -- but there -- it's -- it's fully activated downtown. There is a lot of -- lot of -- lot of stuff happening. So, I just think that as we start talking about creeping and creating activations in those, you know, post 6.00 p.m. and post 7:00 p.m. hours mid block on 4th, we should be -- we should be careful about that, because we are setting -- we are -- again, we are shaping the implementation of this comp plan and this Destination Downtown and we should be careful. Simison: Thank you. Evarts: All right. Thank you. Hersh: Mr. Mayor, Council Members, so I have something else to add about the outdoor speaker system. They are not allowed to operate within a hundred feet of a residential district. So, that is in the UDC code and -- and the only way that they could get approval is through a conditional use permit, which staff recommended they withdraw, because we cannot support it. So, really, it's only the temporary use permit, but it's going to have to have parameters around it, because they cannot have -- per the conditions in the staff report they can't have outdoor speaker systems. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 39 of 79 Simison: Mr. Nary. Nary: Yeah, Mr. Mayor, on top of what Stacy just said, so our restrictions in our code -- the quiet hours we have always talked about that run from 6:00 in the morning to 11 :00 at night, are less restrictive on residential properties. So, the existing residential property that -- that's zoned there is allowed to have an outdoor speaker system until 11:00 o'clock at night. But as Stacy said, with the rezoning and -- and being Old Town and putting the restrictions, they won't be allowed to do that without some restrictions on a TUP or some -- some other -- or a CUP, so -- I mean I think there are some that are kind of built in -- into that and the other thing that we have talked about a little bit -- and I don't recall, Stacy, in the report -- I know when we have talked about it in my -- my office there was conversation on whether a development agreement should be required. It's such a small parcel normally we don't do that, but if there is a concern of turnover and change in use with Old Town, because Old Town zoning is very broad on what it can be done, if this bookstore were to -- to go away for some reason and someone else came in, Old Town is a pretty big slate of things you could do. So, if that's the desire of Council that's certainly a direction we can go with and create, again, those structures around those hours of operation and the type of use on the property. Simison: Thank you. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Brooke Cerio. Simison: Good evening. Cerio: Good evening everyone. I -- do you need my address? Simison: Please. Cerio: Brooke Cerio. 3120 North Burley Place in Meridian. I'm here to voice my support for the rezoning of an old home on 909 Northeast 4th Street to operate 4th Street Books. Bookstores are an essential part place of discovery, refuge and fulfillment that enrich the communities that are lucky enough to have them. Meridian would be lucky enough to have Fourth Street Books. The owner Chelsea Major is a staunch advocate, not only for literature, but for community as well. Her passion for both shines through with her local advocacy and steward -- stewardship -- stewardship, sorry, offered by her pop-ups at Pearl House Collective. As a resident of Meridian I was very excited to hear the news that a bookstore was slated to open, let alone an independently owned one. It was a welcome break from the ongoing news of apartments, burger joints and car washes that are being built around the community. Downtown Meridian has a unique feel, unlike those of other cities, on Idaho and 4th Street Books would be an incredible asset to the charm that exudes from downtown Meridian. Whenever I need to fulfill my book fix I venture into Boise. I know I'm not the only Meridian bookworm who does and the proposed location is rich in history and is the centralized location that is accessible to all Meridian residents. When I'm in Boise I prefer going to Rediscovered Books, rather than a retail giant, like Barnes and Noble, Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 40 of 79 because I enjoy that small intimate feel of the place and their customer service. That is another reason why I'm looking forward to Fourth Street Books being a part of our community. It will offer a curated space for fellow book lovers, a place where residents can host a book club or somewhere I can bring my daughter to find a new read and -- and as -- as an employee of the Meridian Library District I am excited at the prospect of partnering with Fourth Street Books for future endeavors. Now this is not going to be the rowdy, rough and tumble joint that those opposed to it are claiming it will be. mean, come on, when is the last time you heard of a -- a bookworm getting into a brawl? Thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thanks. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Shelby Garissa. Simison: Good evening. Garissa: Good evening. My name is Shelby Garissa. I live at 412 East Pine Avenue. To answer questions that have been posed before tonight. I have lived there almost 30 years. So, this is definitely a question about my backyard. I'm going to start off with the fact that I know this is an application for a rezone. I know that it fits within a comp plan. What doesn't fit -- what doesn't fit in the comp plan is her lack of a plan with this project. She's had a -- a bar, she had a yoga studio, she had a bookstore. There was a -- some monastery something I saw online. She's had so many plans, how are we supposed to give a yea or a nay if we don't know what's happening. We do not live amongst the bars. We do not live amongst all of the commercial. There is a question of the commercial on the corner. The reason this commercial is different from her commercial is it has zero traffic, yet they have no customer base on site. We were told by the Planning and Zoning Commission that we were destroying her dream. She has a dream and she can have that dream. She never had the dream to have it at 909 East 4th. It was a dream to open a bookstore and she's welcome to do that. But I don't think the bar slash bookstore slash mic night slash whatever else she decides to throw at us is what should be there. This is still a neighborhood and it is three blocks off of the core and I worked for the city when the comp plan was being developed and I know what the intention was and it was -- the intention was the commercial core was part of the Old Town. Leave the residential neighborhoods alone. Her traffic study as we will call it, those were photos during the day orchestrated specifically while we were all at work. She said she understands the parking by the school. The difference is that school and the parking was there when she bought the house. They didn't come and infringe on her. She told us the beer and wine license would be the primary source of income when we had our neighborhood meeting. She also told a friend of mine, who owns a business downtown, even if they tell me I can't do it I will do it, I just won't tell anybody. The hours. I'm not so opposed to the hours at 9.00 o'clock or something like that. It is the parking and if she gets 160 some odd days out of the summer to operate this during Dairy Days or she will be open on Christmas when we do the tree lighting, it is already hard enough to get into a parking spot, let alone my driveway, that we wouldn't be able to park again there for her. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 41 of 79 Simison: If you can conclude, please. Garissa: Think that's good. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Council, questions? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Just a comment. I know passions are running high. I know it's in your backyard. I know it affects you personally and it effects everybody. I just want everyone to try their best to just keep it neighborly, as difficult as that may be. Garissa: I am absolutely keeping it neighborly. Thank you for the advice. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Garissa: Thank you. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Becky Logue. Simison: Good evening. B.Logue: Good evening. I do own the business across the street that they are talking about. Simison:, Becky, can you -- B.Logue: My name is Becky Logue and I'm at 404 East Pine and my husband spoke earlier. But our business is different. We really respect our neighbors. We -- we mow our lawn. We take care of it. I know a lot of the pictures didn't get shown that Mert had up and the other video of the alley. But literally we were told if this does pass and she doesn't follow the guidelines that are set before her, you know, to close at 8:00 or 9:00 or whatever, we are supposed to call code enforcement. We are just supposed to always call code enforcement. Well, that's not what I want to do. I don't want to be calling code enforcement all the time. You know, when you are -- when you are in a neighborhood you expect to be able to come home in the evenings and relax and -- and if you don't know what's happening across the street and you can't park in your area that's tough. So, we have been very respectful. Our -- like I said our business -- I had a dream, too. I was Idaho Businesswoman of the Year. I have -- I love entrepreneurship. I literally have -- I -- I -- I do -- I do love all that and I appreciate all that. But this area is not meant for this. It's -- it's all residential. There is like 20 kids that run around in the empty lot right behind her house. People are going to be parking in that empty lot, because it's open. I mean they are -- they are going to be parking there. She can -- we can try to say -- put a -- put a sign up or whatever, but it just poses huge safety issues Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 42 of 79 for those kids. When we moved there years ago -- ten years ago I guess, former Mayor Tammy had came out and visited us and said this is what I want in Old Town. She said I want it to be a place where you live and you work and she said, you know, the light -- light office space -- light commercial, lawyer's offices, real estate offices -- like mine was a shipping -- I -- I built and shipped something. Those types were what was supposed to be in Old Town residential. So you could live and work there and walk about three blocks and go play and that's where the bars and the rest of it goes and she -- she mentioned that several times I said, well, what if I wanted to put -- she says no -- no beverage, no food. This is -- this part of residential Old Town is meant for light office use or residential. I am really afraid that if this happens I have to only sell my house as an office. I can't see it as residential anymore, because nobody's going to want to move into a place with this across the street I don't think with -- if it's noisy at night. I just hope that the city will follow the state and county liquor laws of the 300 feet to -- for the church and -- and not allow it in this area Simison: If you can conclude. B.Logue: Yeah. I just -- I just believe that this is a great area. It's a -- it -- it really is like the North End of Boise kind of. It -- it's a -- it's a really nice residential area. And, then, -- that this core should be separate. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Council, any questions? Okay. Thank you. B.Logue: Thank you. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Shelby Cerio. Sorry if I mispronounced that. Okay. Thank you. And, then, Laura Hinckley. Hinckley: Mayor, Council Members, my name is Laura Hinckley. I live at 10904 Musket Street in West Boise. I am a West Boise resident and homeowner of six years, a wife, a mother of three young children five and under, a Christian and a small business owner. I grew up in small town in western Illinois where the downtown area is vital to the survival of that community. I have a degree in geographic information systems from Brigham Young University, including training in urban planning. The City of Meridian stands only to benefit from the establishment of Fourth Street Books. We are all aware of the sprawling issue that faces the City of Meridian and much of Treasure Valley. As more people move here and more subdivisions are constructed there are not sufficient places and spaces for people to gather and recreate. Mixed-use communities are one way to ensure that the City of Meridian can be a walkable community in which peoples of all incomes can live and thrive. The idea of keeping the core the core is the kind of ideology that exacerbates traffic and congestion and isolates citizens in suburbia. I live in suburbia myself in a home built in the 70s and the closest shopping center is The Village, which is not within walking or biking distance for a young family of five. Fourth Street Books will help Meridian be walkable, accessible to patrons by bus, bike and foot, not only car. Fourth Street Books will add to the preservation, expansion and vitalization of the downtown district due to its proximity and as for Chelsea and her Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 43 of 79 herself as a person, I know her to be a driven, honest and upstanding citizen and a hard working woman. I have had the pleasure of doing several markets with Chelsea and Pearl House Collectives since 2001. Or, excuse me, 2021. She is an active community member and a small business owner passionate about inclusivity and community. The fact that we are here today is a testament to her work ethic and her success that she has had thus far with her online bookstore Pearl House Collective. Though I do not live in Old Town Meridian myself, downtown Meridian is a frequent destination for myself and my family. We often go to get an ice cream at Truffle's Etc Shop at Sought + Found Boutique and my business has partnered several times with the pre-existing business Eclectic Avenue for pop-up shops. I know that the establishment of a small business closer to where Chelsea resides will enhance the livability of the Treasure Valley and I am in favor of the rezoning for Fourth Street Books. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Hinckley: Okay. Thank you. Johnson: And, Mr. Mayor, next is Nick Grove on Zoom. Nick, you can unmute yourself. Grove: Hey, can you hear me? Simison: Yes. Grove: All right. Thanks for having me. Nick Grove. 1536 Northwest 1st Street. Just wanted to give a little bit of context. I live in downtown. I have worked in downtown for nearly a decade and I have served on a number of committees, working groups, serving -- working with businesses, chamber, parking -- parking, transportation, streetscape, public projects. I was on the Comprehensive Plan Steering Committee and I served for a number of years on Planning and Zoning. So, I'm -- I'm fairly well versed in a number of the things that have been discussed here tonight and just wanted to weigh in with how I -- I see it and -- and -- and provide some context. So, I think there has been a lot of misleading comments, both tonight and at the Planning and Zoning Commission. A lot of the residents that have -- you know, some of the more neighbor are not in my backyard mentality. Sorry, Josh. Not calling you out. I didn't mean to. But this is not a nightclub and that's how it's been portrayed. This is a bookstore that has another business model to offset their cost. So, the -- the purpose of Old Town is really to create that vibrant mix of uses and encourage mixed-use areas near, in and around downtown. Support owners of historic buildings in their efforts to restore and preserve their properties and gathering places that should be convenient and integrated and encourage social activity and engagement through generous and intentional amenities and activation. This is what is needed. The parking is a concern, but it is the type of concern that is needed in a downtown environment to create long-term stability and health for the community as a whole. You want foot traffic and trying to treat downtown as essentially Main Street from Pine to Broadway is short sighted and will result in a downtown that does not survive and is not able to maintain itself over the long term. We have to expand what we consider to be downtown and looking at what is on the future Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 44 of 79 land use map versus that -- that one block stretch, two block stretch from Pine to Broadway is -- is desperately needed in how we go about changing downtown for the better with intentionality and purpose and when we do have these neighbors that move in welcoming them with open arms and really looking at how we can embrace our neighbors as they come in and not -- not demonize with misinformation out of the gate. Simison: Thank you, Nick. Council, any questions? Okay. Appreciate it. So, Mr. Clerk, I assume we had everybody who signed up in advance or no? Johnson: Yes, Mr. Mayor, that's everybody signed up. Simison: Okay. If there is anybody else who would like to provide testimony on this item if you would like to come forward at this time. Just come on up and maybe sit in the front row so you can be ready and if you are online use the raise your hand feature, so -- Parker: Hi. I'm Megan Parker. 5739 West Riva Capri Street, Meridian. 83646. I'm a resident of Meridian and I own property on 31 East Carlton and one of the reasons we bought property in the area was because of the lower of the ability to walk to small businesses along Idaho Street, like 830 Commons, Truffles, and Vintage 61 wine bar and kitchen, which appears to me as a home converted to a business that sells alcohol. I don't know that for sure. And just maybe looking at what they did do about parking and the noise and that's also surrounded by residential homes. Fourth Street Books can be such an asset to the area and as far as parking goes I believe people that come to visit downtown will park in a central area that allows them to walk to all businesses in the area, much like when you visit downtown Boise and also I think attacking Chelsea's character is completely unnecessary, because she is a compassionate community minded person and if you have been to an author talk before it's not a riot, it's sipping wine or beer while you chat about books. Thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? All right. Appreciate it. Anybody else? Just come on up if you -- if you want to speak just come on up and the next person. Just wait until you get up to the microphone. If you can speak into the microphone, so we can get it on the record. McGoldrick: Sorry about that. I have several signatures here from the people that live in the -- the existing immediate area. They are against it and I don't think anybody knew where to turn them into, so -- Simison- If you can say your name and address for the record just so we have it, too. McGoldrick: Okay. My name is Tom McGoldrick. 330 East State Avenue. I live about a quarter of a block away from this place. I moved from Canyon county 25 years ago to this house. Canyon county in my mind was going downhill at the time, so I wanted to come to Meridian. Meridian had that small town feel, small town love about it that everybody moved to. We have people moving here daily from Seattle, Portland, LA, Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 45 of 79 because they want to get the hell out of where they are living. They can't stand the way the city is run, the way the city is moving forward. We don't want to start patterning Meridian after what they are trying to escape from. We want to really stop and think about it. And the main reason why I say this is we have empty businesses on the main drag, yet we are trying to pass houses into businesses in the middle of housing area. This is the same thing that was done -- if any of you remember in the late '60s, early 70s. Garden City -- 50 years later Garden City is still trying to recover from that kind of an agenda and that's why I really would hope that people would stop and think hard about this. We don't want to create another Garden City here and -- and I'm not trying to downplay Garden City, but it's had a bad reputation for a reason. My friend I grew up with in high school owned bookstores, print shops and her husband traveled Idaho small towns writing books about the small towns in Idaho. She has passed. I have contacted the family and I said, okay, somebody to open up a small bookstore what's it going to take for business wise? They said there is no profit in new and used books both. So, you are talking 20 to 30 customers -- paying customers per hour. So, when you are looking at this parking you better take that in consideration. This is not the people that don't buy, this is the people that are purchasing. Are you going to have parking for that many people in this area? This is just the bookstore and they are also talking about seating for 50 in the back and at her meeting she specifically said her main income would be from beer and from wine and I get that, because you are not going to make it from the books. So, one of my biggest concerns is without a great business plan this fails. You guys have already said, hey, sports pub, go ahead and move in here, buy it from her. We can't think like that, because that's how Garden City got themself where they are at. So, that's one of my main concerns. I just want to get that across, because I invested heavily 25 years ago in Meridian. I really hope to stay here because of the -- the way Nampa is growing and now from what I was told the last meeting the plans for this city -- I need to think about moving away because of the plans for Meridian going forward. Simison: All right. Thank you. McGoldrick: Thank you. Simison: Council, any questions? Okay. Is there anybody else that would like to provide -- Burgess: I'm Elizabeth Burgess and I live in 120 East State Avenue. I'm two blocks away, wanting to keep it in the core. Anymore those buildings are owned by people that make it unfeasible for small people starting out to afford rent. From my understanding Chelsea was able to purchase a home and wanted to make it a vibrant community, so she's -- she bought it thinking that she could utilize it as a business and I'm not very prepared for this, but I just -- it's very frustrating to hear that we have Old Town as a mixed-use, but, then, we are not letting businesses expand into that Old Town use. So, as a resident that walks to multiple businesses -- I do own Hidden Gem Events on the corner of State and 2nd where I do have a conditional use permit, so if she ever needs to have big events there she can have them at my facility if that's an issue. But I walk Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 46 of 79 everywhere downtown. I have never seen any issues with other businesses and I -- yeah, I'm just going to ramble. So, I'm done. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you. Warner: Hi. Good evening. My name is Robert Warner. I live at 435 East State Avenue. So, just a block away from the proposed Pearl Collective, the bookstore. And I -- I think it's -- I -- I like the idea of a bookstore and I like the idea of -- of how it was presented and out -- and during the presentation I found myself kind of leaning in favor of having this establishment in my neighborhood, which is about a stone's throw away. But as I begin to contemplate that more and more I began to kind of juxtapose this business with -- with my family and I look at, you know, the five children that I have raised at this home that I live in -- live in for ten years and one of my children was actually birthed in the home itself and -- and I just don't see a fit. I -- I really don't as I, you know, peer across the street at my neighbors or the families who live across the street and I -- I don't see how this is going to fit into our -- our community at all and I think part of it -- the big reason I think is the location. I think the parking is going to be problematic. I do live across the street from the -- the bridal shop and before that it was a music lesson studio and the parking was problematic. I mean they parked in front of my house. There was nothing I could really do about it. I just kind of, you know, live and let live so to speak. But I think for other neighbors who are even closer it's going to be more problematic if we are talking about, you know, 15 to 20 vehicles maybe consistently and, then, not only that, but also going throughout the night. As stated earlier, the bridal shop is by appointment only and to my surprise there is a lot of people who attend these events to go and buy a dress and there are several cars that park in front of my house across the street. But, again, I think as -- as a -- as someone who has -- who has five children and -- ages from 15 down to two and a half -- we homeschool, so -- so books are a big part of our lives. I mean my -- my 12 year old son is halfway through Dune. We read consistently. I have read to my children books that probably most adults don't read, you know. Into The Wild, for example. They really love that book. So, we are readers. We are -- we are educators. We -- we home school. like the idea of a bookstore. I -- I don't know that the location is a good fit for -- for the -- the downtown Old Town Meridian. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thanks. Warner: Thank you. Simison: I'm not going to tell you which one to come, so -- you know, figure it out. Medrano: All right. Good evening. Thank you for all the questions. I really appreciate them. My name is Kelsey Medrano. I live at 312 East State Avenue. I'm a native Idahoan and I live directly across from Josh. I want to start by addressing the comments made about -- sort of the character assassination and it's not character assassination to argue the merits of this application. It is my understanding at the last hearing -- I was unable to participate in that, as I am a service member and I get called Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 47 of 79 away frequently as you can imagine. So, it's my understanding that at the last hearing us residents were painted in this villainous light trying to crush someone's dream, which is not only unfair, but wholly untrue. We think the dream that the applicant has is commendable, but the parcel in question is simply not compatible in this location, which is in the middle of a residential area. We are not a mob with pitchforks trying to run the applicant out of town. We are citizens of this community, the city and the state, who want historical residential integrity preserved. So, I would like to address a couple things that I have heard come up in -- in the testimony and in the presentation. I would like to pose the question of how can you create more spaces to live by reducing the residential area? Also what the applicant has described versus the testimony given by those in favor are two wildly different establishments. What the applicant described as a micro cafe and bookstore serving beer and wine is, then, being described by those giving testimony in favor as a welcoming establishment for children and children's reading and literacy. And I am absolutely in favor of literacy in bookstores. So, again, I -- we are not a villainous mob trying to crush someone's dream. It was also described as close proximity to residential properties. But, again, this is misleading. This property is in the middle of a residential area, not just a close proximity. It is next door. I would like to also ask how the landscaping with some shrubbery mitigate noise coming from a cafe, unless you intend to encapsulate the property and nothing less than a self- contained biodome. I live next door to a neighbor who frequently plays music from a -- a speaker well into the hours of the evening and it's very easy for me to hear that. The applicant used the botanical gardens as an example, which is once again misleading, because the botanical gardens are not in the middle of a residential area and have acres more space than the parcel in question. The applicant stated her sentiments for historical preservation, but this rezoning sets the precedence for the slow erosion of the historical residential area that remains in this community. Simison: If you can wrap up, please. Medrano: Yes. So, my final statements -- I would like to just summarize by saying this comes down to the precedent setting and the slow erosion of what remains of the historical residential homes in Meridian if this rezone is approved. I implore you to, please, vote no on this measure for the preservation of our neighborhood. Thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Sorry. Right here. Sorry. Thank you for your testimony. I really appreciate kind of you trying to kind of talk about some of these things specifically, because it kind of is how my question started tonight is -- to me it's not about the bookstore; right? It's not about should we have an independent bookstore in downtown Meridian. It is about the rezone and the uses that can come with that and so I think that's where some of the questions from Council is coming from is we do have commercial use along -- in and Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 48 of 79 around that area. Again, across the street. So, is it kind of your belief -- because you used -- used a term that I really liked. Historical residential integrity. That -- that got kind of my mind spinning. So, if that is the case, then, should we just be opposed to commercial usage -- usage along Old Town and some of the ideas that have been contemplated for years about Old Town? Do we -- do we abandon that? Is it -- I mean that -- that's the part I think that I'm struggling with; right? Is that it's -- it's okay across the street, it's okay kitty corner. The uses -- I think Council Member Strader is trying to do a good job of trying to couch the use to -- to minimize the -- the negative impact. But to me I'm thinking about the rezone piece and so help me kind of understand what your thoughts are as a resident about rezoning and allowing these types of use -- allowing more commercial use in this area. Medrano: All right. So, my -- I guess my immediate answer would be certainly, no, my -- it's not just a blanket no -- to no commercial use. I guess I would probably espouse a lot of what Josh said, that it certainly is -- it's -- it's -- it's a difficult question; right? You have got the interest of -- of -- of growth to think about, but, then, you also have to think about how does this affect the community members. So, it's a very difficult question and I don't know that I am the expert on that, nor am I trying to pretend that I am. So, my answer is certainly I don't think that the answer is a blanket no to any commercial use. As Becky pointed out their -- their business, it -- it certainly is right across the street. But, again, it is not an assemblage. It's -- it's a -- satellite is not the word that I'm trying to use, but it's a -- sort of almost like a staging area. It's not frequented by customers and, again, the parking isn't -- isn't used up, but they are not using anybody else's parking. Those vehicles are staged in their -- their parking area and in the space that they have for that. So again -- so, I'm trying not to ramble. So, my -- again my -- my -- my answer would certainly be, no, it's not a blanket no, but us residents are trying to stymie any of that growth. I feel like the heart of our sentiment is that, again, we are not trying to crust someone's dream and we all are -- you know, are in favor of literacy and, you know, I -- we live, you know, kitty corner from Cole Valley Christian and it's not a matter of us trying to assassinate someone's character or be -- I think the phrase was used by someone that we are the not in my backyard crowd. Well, I would say to a degree the not in my backyard is -- is somewhat true, but in the sense that it has to do with the type of use. It would -- I think as Josh said, it would be a totally different conversation if this were just a bookstore and that's why I -- I mentioned in my statement there are two wildly different pictures being painted by the applicant's presentation and what -- the testimony being given. In the applicant's description it's a micro cafe serving beer and wine, but in the testimony of those in favor we are talking about how little kids are coming and they are so excited to -- to frequent this establishment. So, again, how can we give an educated and solid answer or response when there still seems to be somewhat of an element of vagueness as to what this establishment really is and -- and we don't -- again, I think there was the nightclub description throughout. We don't -- aren't considering it a nightclub. Again, our main concern is it's in a residential area. This is not just close proximity. It is next door. Like Josh said, he can see into this patio. You know, I can't see into the patio, but I am directly across from Josh on the street. So, it is -- it is in the residential neighborhood, Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 49 of 79 not just close proximity. So, I think I -- I -- I think I have answered the question. So, I don't want to segue too much. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: And maybe just -- just want to give you the opportunity. That neighbor that was playing music until all hours of the morning, that wasn't Josh; right? Medrano: That was not Josh. No. That -- that was the neighbor to my left and he doesn't play until all hours of night, but it's certainly late into the evening. So, again, I -- I -- I would agree with him, I think that if the -- we were talking about just a straight bookstore, we are not talking about a gathering place that's playing live music. I get that it's an acoustic guitar. But, again, I can hear my neighbors portable speaker in my bedroom. So, you know, if it is a -- how am I trying to say that? It comes down to the actual use, the hours, the parking. Again, we are not trying to crush someone's dream. We are all in favor of -- and that's why we all moved here. I'm -- like I said, I'm an Idaho native. I was born in Boise. I grew up in Kuna. I'm a graduate of Kuna High School. You know, I -- I left for my -- my first year of college. I went down to New Mexico. But I realized after that that Idaho is where my heart belongs and I chose to specifically enlist in the Idaho Air National Guard, so that I would remain as a civil servant in my state. So, my heart is here and so my heart is absolutely to -- to see this historical integrity, this -- the -- the historical factor and the integrity preserved. So, I -- I'm trying not to ramble, but did I answer your question? Cavener: You did. Thank you very much. Medrano: Okay. Cavener: I really appreciate it. Medrano: Absolutely. Seal: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, thank you. You had mentioned that this is a residential area and it -- it -- that's -- that's tough, because that's not exactly clear what that means. So, you know, the -- the -- the downtown living -- the apartments downtown are the houses in the core are those not also considered residential living spaces? And so I -- I'm not questioning you, I'm just throwing -- I'm just kind of, you know, throwing questions out there about what is considered a residential area. Nationwide there is a huge growth in demand towards mixed-use types of areas, so that people can be more flexible and walk and those kinds of things, especially with the cost of living. But we want Meridian to still be Meridian, of course. We don't want to just say, well, this is happening in other places, we -- we want it to keep its own identity. But I want to get an under -- with that Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 50 of 79 being said I want to get an understanding from you of when does it become not a residential area -- when -- when does that change? Is it -- there -- does there have to be a number of -- of buildings that are converted? Does there have to be a proximity to a commercial? Like when does it not become residential, because the -- the future designation that was -- that was decided by our public is that it's Old Town, it's what the applicant's asking for and so that wasn't a decision that was just unilaterally made by the city and not -- it was -- it was almost two years' worth of public input. So, just help me understand from your perspective when you say residential area, is that like within so many houses? You know, just -- what exactly does that mean? Medrano: I guess if you are asking for my opinion specifically, me personally I -- I would categorize a residential area as -- as one where a majority of the homes are occupied by families, so to speak. That are not occupied by businesses. And, again, we have the -- the bridal shop that's just down the block. We have the -- the -- the business on the corner. But the majority -- and 1, obviously, don't have a -- a figure or number to give you, but I guess my -- my reflexive answer would just be I would consider a residential area one in which the majority of homes are occupied by individuals and not a business and I don't know how -- I don't know how better to just answer that off the cuff. I just would like to reiterate -- and I'm not trying to be combative -- that I think that this boils down to what is the business? Is it going to be from 10:00 to 10:00 or is it going to be maybe 8:00 to 6:00? Is it just a bookstore or are we having live music and -- and beer and wine? These are very different establishments. So, it's very hard for us to -- to say one way or the other and I -- I -- again, I think we would be having a very different conversation if this were just a bookstore operating between the hours of say 8:00 to 6:00. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, a follow up if I may. Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate. I really do want to understand and we can -- we can finish the conversation in another meeting, but -- but we are working on our downtown plan and we do want -- that this does help us and this is coming at a good time in the sense of we want to understand the thinking of downtown residents and the role that they see themselves play in our community, because we don't get an opportunity to do that very much. So, we will -- we are asking questions like, you know, if -- if -- if you decide to rent your house or turn it into an Airbnb are you a business or are you a resident and we need to understand more, because these are the questions that are getting to ask -- asked to us now as our -- as our downtown transforms to really define what a residence is and what a business is. Can you have both. You know, so -- so, yes, you are correct in that there needs to be clarity on the definition of how it's going to be used. But that -- I appreciate all of our residents here who are talking about their ideas of what a business is, what a residence is. So, thank you for your time. Medrano: Thank you. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 51 of 79 Simison: Council, any additional questions? Okay. Thank you. Is there anybody else that would like to provide testimony? Castro: Hi. Simison: Good evening. Castro: I am not used to speaking. I'm doing this because Chelsea is not only my friend, but I feel that I would like to make some sort of an impact if I could. Simison: If you can start with your name and address, please. Castro: My name is Mattie Castro. I live at 577 North Eagle Hills Way in Eagle, Idaho. I would like to also ask a question. I did write a comment. I'm not sure if that was read beforehand. But touching base on a little bit of what I wrote, I wrote about my residency history. I was born and raised here in the Treasure Valley. I lived in a lot of the cities around here. My mom was a single mom, so I moved around a lot. I eventually left for almost two years -- not by choice, but because it was a transition in my mom's life and I lived in St. George, Utah, and I don't know if anyone's ever been there, but it was very small in 2011 and now it's grown tremendously. I have a lot of friends that I would have graduated with high school if I wouldn't have left that have spoken about what that growth has kind of done to them and being able to see the growth here within the Treasure Valley and what that's done, you know, for a local -- it at first was very upsetting and, then, I started to realize that it was -- it was inevitable and I guess coming up here I just wanted to state that it's something that as -- as -- as human beings we all know that change is inevitable. That growth is inevitable. And when we are speaking about having a small business or something that is impeding on a residential area, I think about Roosevelt Market and I used to go to Roosevelt Elementary School and right across the way was that market and I remember as a little kid after school I would beg my mom to go over there and get a lollipop or something before I went home, because I thought it was the cutest little store and, yes, it wasn't noisy, but, then, I lived in southeast Boise and down the street from Liberty Elementary, which is a school I also attended, was a daycare center and that daycare center had kids screaming and, of course, parents are going to pick those kids up, you know, before 4:00 o'clock or 5:00 when school gets out. I guess what I'm saying is all of these valid oppositions coming from both ends, I can see them both. I can see them from the local side and I can see them from my dear beloved friend I met in 2021 . She -- she -- I guess what I'm trying to say is -- Simison: If you can conclude, please. Castro: She is a very compassionate person. She is for the community. It's -- this is nothing to have in -- me knowing her character, this is nothing to have -- truly wanting to impede on the locals and the residents around Fourth Street Books, so -- thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 52 of 79 Simison: Good evening. Larsen: Hi. My name is Judy Larsen. I live at 331 East State Avenue and the bookstore is like from me to you from my house and their backyard is right there. So, my husband sits in the garage with the door open facing Pine and that's where he is most of the day. So, if there is the mic and everybody walking around, it's going to really be disruptive for our family. Sorry. And we have the windows open and different things in the house for the summertime and it's halfway quiet. The bookstore has an open mic and it's going to be way too noisy. We have five great grandchildren that live behind the bookstore that play in the vacant lot behind there. They play up and down the alley and in the lot. So, if there is extra cars that's not good. Let's see. I'm not opposed to her bookstore. It's all the other stuff that she's adding on to it that really -- I'm not okay with. If it's just a bookstore that's fine and if it's open reasonable hours that's fine. But it's just -- it's just too close and there is no parking. So, I guess that's all I have to say. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you. Is there anybody else that would like to provide testimony on this item? If I could get a raise of hands if anyone else is -- we are trying to look for the time that we are going to take a break. Is this the last person speaking? Okay. Ahern: Hi. I'm Cait Ahern. I'm at 5095 North Maple Stone Avenue, Meridian. 83646. So, I am northwest Meridian. I am not within walking distance to anything, let alone downtown, but I love this community and I am actively involved in all manner of programs and local things going on and so I think like everybody here are deeply invested in making sure that this community thrives in all areas, not just this one specific area, and I -- before everybody gasps in horror, I moved here from California. My dad was in the military, so, yeah, I moved around all over the place. I lived in small towns, big towns, you know, one of them being Pocatello and when we lived in Pocatello we lived in downtown in an historic house that was, you know, on the -- the main road was the side of our street, right, and, you know, didn't see a whole lot of change while I was there. I was a kid. But I can tell you that some of my most cherished memories are from having that kind of access to community without having to go very far for it and, you know, my dad was deployed all the time, my mom was there trying to make sure we had, you know, all the fun things that we were supposed to be doing as kids and walking down to Harvest Co and, you know, talking her into buying cookies and stuff. Like those are the things that -- that I think of as a kid. And so I know everybody's concerned about children, but I -- I think that, you know, we can -- we can hope that they would do better than we think they would and as far as, you know, my patronage there, I don't know the owners. I'm an avid reader. I am a part of a lot of book clubs and my book club currently meets at a cafe called Caffeina in Garden City, which I happen to think Garden City is wonderful, but okay. We -- you know, we go there because it's like cool vibes and cozy seating and you can talk about your books and have a glass of wine. Having alcohol available does not mean that this is going to be, you know, a -- a turned up event every single night. Like, you know, this book club meets, maybe have a glass of wine. I also take my kids there for snacks and smoothies, like this is -- this is not a -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 53 of 79 a binary situation where it's either a docile bookstore or this, you know, bar that's been portrayed and I think that if there can be some acknowledgement that they seem to have been very thoughtful about how to go about this and making sure that it's not, you know, a crazy cafe situation where -- I mean we go to Sunrise all the time and, like I said, I'm not walking anywhere where -- from where I'm from. So, you are dealing with my parking on busy Saturday mornings to try to have brunch with my family no matter what, so I -- I think that it's been thoughtfully presented and I hope that it will come down to more than just parking, even though that's important. Simison: Thank you. Ahern: Thanks. Simison: Council, questions? Oh, don't go very far. Cavener: Mr. Mayor, I would hate to have the opportunity pass to acknowledge -- I think this is the first time in our City Council the term turned up has been used, so -- Ahern: You know, we are talking about nightclubs. It's -- Cavener: Appreciate your testimony. Simison: And the question -- you know, I don't know how close we are in age, but Price's Corner, Big Gary's in Pocatello, any of those ring a bell? Were you -- Ahern: I -- okay. So, it was the '90s for me and we were there when it changed from Purrington's to Ridleys and so that was big drama in Pocatello. Simison: Okay. So, Big Gary's still would have been there, but Price's Corner was gone. But they had the best fries in downtown. Ahern: Oh. Okay. Yeah. I remember that. Simison: I would have been a lot of trouble if I was living in that area at that time. Thank you. Okay. So, with that -- just to make sure -- we have one person online. If they wish to testify do they want to raise their hand? Then, Council, we will go ahead and take a break and reconvene in about 9:15. Okay. (Recess: 8:53 p.m. to 9:18 p.m. ) Simison: All right. Council, we will go ahead and come back from our recess. Thank you for allowing us that time. We will go ahead and bring the applicant back up for final remarks. Buzzini: Do I say my name again? Simison: It would be helpful, yes. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 54 of 79 Buzzini: Okay. Ashley Buzzini: EV Studio. So, I just wanted to help address some of the occupancy calculation questions. So, we will work with the building department on it, but per the IBC the use will be under a mercantile occupancy on the inside of the structure, which is calculated at 60 gross. So, that will be against the square footage to get the occupancy number inside, which we are calculating ten to 12 occupants inside the bookstore and, then, in the backyard and the front porch they would both be classified as an assembly use, so that would be under 15 net. But in the backyard that would -- there is a lot of square footage back there, so at 15 net we would have a very high number of occupants. So, in order to mitigate that we counted by seat per bench that we have in the backyard. So, we got 30 occupants back there. And, then, at the front porch we have ten to 12 occupants also per seat -- calculated per seat. Major: So, looking at a full house for an event evening it would be close to 50 to 60 max and all of those events will be ticketed. Oh. I'm Chelsea Major again. And first I just want to say thank you. I know this is, again, part of your job, Mr. Mayor and the Council, but I really do appreciate you taking the time to listen to all the perspectives. I -- I mean it's one of the things I love about books is they teach us to hear, understand something that's beyond ourself and so that's partly why I am here today is because of the power of those books. I also recognize that this is a business and what we are here to talk about is really the rezone request. So, I did want to kind of say I have some -- I don't know if they are considered concessions, but like I am -- I am very open to some of the dialogue that I heard here. I'm more than happy to have an agreement that adjusts and talks through those hours and lock that in in terms of how late we will be open. I'm also open to -- which I think this is already part of what's -- we have heard you say, Stacy, as well, which is not having an outdoor mic system. That wouldn't be -- it's not allowed anyway, but I'm happy to put that into some sort of writing for clarity sake if that's helpful. And I think, you know, just speaking today kind of looking at that space is you have that property across the street. We have the Logan business. To the left is an Airbnb that was updated in the last -- I think a year and a half. They are like 70s themed. And, then, there is an alleyway and behind is a lot, which we -- we have already heard a little bit about and people playing in that lot as well. So, we are really aware of the concerns. But, hopefully, we are focused on what we want to bring in, which is a bookstore with an ability to sit down, have a glass of wine, talk about a book and I also wanted to clarify the open mic, because I think, again, there is confusion around that. Open mic is not open mic guitar playing, anyone brings in their music, cool abilities. It's actually a literary open mic, which would be more mic lists and come bring your work for the first time to read it out loud. So, again, imagining people in the backyard sitting listening to a person reading a couple poems, a person reading selection of passages from a book they are working on, that sort of thing. Not an open mic loud music, loud speaker situation. Is there anything else we wanted to address? So, I'm here for questions. But, again, you know, we really do want to make this a space that is meaningful for the community and I'm happy to continue to refine whether that's through a development agreement or whatever else may be helpful to mitigate some of the concerns. Simison: Thank you. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 55 of 79 Overton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Overton. Overton: One quick question. Chelsea or Ashley, whichever one of you. Major: Yes, sir. Overton: You are putting in a nice handicapped ramp in front of the house. Major: That's correct. So, on the -- when you are facing the house, the -- the side closest to Pine will actually be adding a ramp there, which will expand that front porch seating as well. Overton: Where is the closest handicapped parking spot? Major: So, since we have the two front parking -- parallel parking on the frontage of the property, there is an accessible ramp side towards the alley up onto the sidewalk that would guide you to that accessible ramp. Overton: So, if two people are parked there because it's not a marked handicap spot, where is the closest handicap spot to the house; do you know? Major: It would be in one of the designated parking lots in Meridian. Overton: Thank you. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: So, it's not uncommon for us in public hearings to have two good possibilities, meaning a -- a bookstore as a great asset to our community, but also keeping an historic home as a residential use. It's also a great asset. So, there is the good and the good and so in these decisions what we -- what I have found, at least, that seems to be the -- the best way to go about finding a solution, is not for us as the Council Members to tell you what we think that you should do, it's for you to have heard your neighbors and, then, to tell us what you're willing to do and to address their concerns and, then, convince us that that sufficiently addresses the concerns such that you can still operate your business. That's what I would invite you to do this evening if you are able, because I don't feel comfortable sort of legislating how you would be able to run your business in terms of hours in terms of what you serve. For me I would want you to listen to your neighbors and let me know how you are going to accommodate their concerns. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 56 of 79 Major: You know, that's helpful feedback and I'm just thinking in terms of next steps. You know, I'm -- I'm more than happy to have more conversation. I think the challenge is parking. I can't -- I can't solve for that beyond what we have outlined already, meaning we have looked at parking on Pine. We see that there is parking that appears to be available today. There appears to be parking that's within, you know, less than three minute walk and, then, there also is other modes of transportation. So, I think that's one area. I don't know what a concession would look like, so, again, open for feedback or thoughts around that, but in terms of the -- the timing of the -- the establishment, you know, we do want to go into the evening. Now, again, starting with a reduced schedule I think is intentional and whether or not we did like weekday versus week nights, that's definitely something -- or weekends, that's something we are open to as well. So, I guess question back would be what would be a good next step at this point at this juncture. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: I will jump in a little bit on that question, which is a great question. So, been kind of quietly soaking up the comments from -- from yourself and from the neighborhood, friends, folks I know, Chamber and I can tell you in -- in a different context what we have done in projects if they were to get approved is we certainly do a development agreement and sometimes those are very narrowly crafted. So, to answer your question, what could happen is a development agreement that limits the use not -- to Old Town uses, but to your specific use and none other, carefully described to clear up any ambiguities about what the use is and the -- the ancillary uses as well. It also includes parameters on either limiting or excluding outdoor sound amplification. It may including limiting or eliminating outdoor lighting. It could impact -- and -- and you could agree to impose upon yourself a more restrictive hours of operation. Your -- your application references an idea, perhaps the first 12 or 16 months it might be limited from noon to 9:00 p.m. Those are big major decisions. You are taking massive risk trying to start this business. So, limiting hours is a big decision for you. But that's another element that would go into a development agreement. Another might be a parking matter. You don't control much of it, but in some context that -- the one employee parking, maybe that's the handicap stall. Maybe that's dedicated to try and address and ensure employees can walk and you are going to preserve that, just to make it a little better for -- for your customers. Those are some of the main discussion points that I had heard that if you were asked to consider how you would comfortably articulate limits on your business to do what you are doing. The reason I go through all of that is the decision making process in my eyes is -- is very long term and that it's not designed because you are a great person or not or -- and I'm friends with the folks in the back corner or not or -- or Josh and the Chamber and Sean and I adore a lot of people in this room and we do not decide on anything like that. Trying to figure out a way to make this all successful. So, whatever the decision is when everyone here is gone this decision could be successful for everyone else who is here, including us. So, that's why I'm -- I'm ploddingly getting through to a decision in this, because it's really important. Much Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 57 of 79 broader than just, you know, who is in this room longer term. So, with that I think your idea is fantastic. I think what you are trying to do is fantastic and I hope would be extremely successful and I am very delicate in the balance, because everyone who testified in this room on things that weren't personal, is kind of right, because it's how they feel and they feel like the parking won't be enough and they feel like it might be -- I think everyone's feelings about this is -- they are all valid. So, trying to figure out is there a way to create a DA that addresses all of those concerns and finds a balance. I applaud you also for having the perspective of -- of agreeing to go halfway and -- and create some balance limiting those lights, sound, hours in a way that can be successful. One of the questions to you is if you think tonight you are able to articulate limitations, some are more absolute. If it's, for example, no outdoor sound amplification, if that's a condition in a DA and you think that's acceptable, there is an easy one. Low hanging fruit. The second one exterior lighting. I don't know if that was of concern. Major: What we had listed in the back was string lighting and that were, you know, kind of covered, so it doesn't have a large kind of impact. Borton: So, you can -- you can appreciate the concern of -- of those immediately around you and the efforts in particular to address that concern. Hours of operation. Now, it might be mindful -- when the DA gets approved on a project an applicant can always come back and request to modify a DA. And so, for example, the hours of operation might be limited, you know, X to Y and after a year or two there might be grounds for an applicant to come back and say, you know what, let's modify and expand that, because it's not as bad, for example, as we thought it might be. We -- we errored on the side of a little more restriction, knowing we might be able to ask to change it later on. Are there hours of operation that you think would be probably more restrictive than you wish you could do, but something to try to address the concerns and -- and I have referenced your noon to 9.00 p.m. as one example, instead of 10:00 p.m. Major: Yeah. And I think, you know, noon to 9.00 p.m. is definitely doable for -- for at least the first year, you know, and so I do technology consulting. That's my other thing that I do. And one of the things we always talk about is what's MVP; right? What's the minimal viable product? What does it look like to get it out the door to try something to get feedback to understand if it works and I think that's a very, you know, palatable thing to be thinking about here. That's why we started with the pop-up bookstore, because I couldn't -- I didn't have the backing, I didn't have the finances, I didn't have the detail of what my customers needed to do in the store. So, when I think about what does MVP look like for the brick and mortar, I think it's get the brick and mortar open, have coffee and tea. We are still going to be working on getting a beer and wine license, because that's a separate process. I think having the limited hours 12.00 to 9.00 p.m. is realistic. I think I would want to look at do we want to add on Wednesday if that is the case. But that would be definitely something I could see as realistic. Borton: Okay. And the parking idea -- kind of from left field, but Councilman Overton raised it, which is a good thing to be mindful of. That might be an additional element. Any comments on that? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 58 of 79 Major: I like the idea of in the alley. I think we would want to just make sure that that is feasible. I know initially we talked about having no parking for customers in the alley, so if that was one spot available in the alley I feel like that could lead to confusion. I'm open for thoughts, though, on that. Yeah. Borton: Some of them might be difficult to resolve here. Major: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if that one we can resolve here, but I do want to make sure that this is an accessible place. This is very important to us. Borton: Okay. And -- and last comment. I -- I traveled around and I go to every bookstore, little independent one as well. I have been to readings. Some of our life experiences help inform our decisions as well. So, none of the events I have seen they have -- it's -- the consumption of alcohol is very ancillary to it. The folks that go, you know, they might have a glass or a drink to enjoy as part of the event itself. But I don't think that would be a concern and whether it's a small or large percentage of your gross revenue that's your business. I just don't think the consumption of alcohol is going to be an overwhelming element that would cause me concern. Just I -- Major: I would clarify when we wrote the initial business plan we didn't write it with the cafe element, we added it on, because we saw the history of bookstores that were closing and they didn't have a reason to have people thinking to stay. So, it was an additional add on to that initial -- initial plan. But with the understanding that it would be supplementary. It wouldn't be the primary reason people are going there. It's not just to drink, it's to -- to fellowship and to be in community. Borton: Thank you. Major: Thank you. And thank you for your feedback. Borton: Those are thoughts and ideas if a DA were to go forward from my perspective I would feel more comfortable if it was very narrowly tailored to fit your specific business. So, if at some point were to sell and a new buyer wanted to do some different use that would otherwise be allowed an Old Town zone -- in an Old Town zoning, they couldn't do it without coming back before the -- the Council that's up here and request to modify your DA and, then, that future Council and the public can make that decision at a public hearing. Major: And that was something we did discuss in the neighborhood meeting and we didn't know how we would actualize that. So, if that's definitely an option we are not opposed to it. Borton: Okay. Major: Our goal is to be here for the long haul. You know, we bought our house on 3rd with the plan to raise, you know, children in it, so -- Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 59 of 79 Borton: Fantastic. Major: -- we are here to stick around. Borton: And -- sorry, Mr. Mayor. And it's not a concept picking on you or the application, but we have done it elsewhere when we want to be very purposeful. Major: I don't take it personally. Borton: Okay. Thanks. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thank you, Mrs. Major, for coming and presenting. I love the concept. You know, you say you are community minded. I think you have an opportunity in front of you to engage with the community in a very real way with your business to try to get it to a place of compromise where everyone hopefully can -- can live with it and be happy. I agree completely with Councilman Borton's comments. I think that's spot on. I think crafting a development agreement along those lines go a long way toward mitigating some of the fears I think that people have. You know, one thing I had -- a question I had actually which I appreciate you -- your colleague answering was how many people could actually sit in the back. So, you know, one thing I would encourage you to think about -- another way to try to tackle it -- you have a friend with a larger event space, maybe, you know, in discussions you could decide that an event with more than a certain number of people, you know, with ticketed so you can control that would be held at your friend's venue and things like that. Those could all be good ways to try to tackle it. I think the hours of operation is something that, you know, you clearly are open to. I appreciate the clarification that the open mic is not an actual microphone. I think that's important, because people hear open mic and I don't blame them. I think the same thing, like I picture a microphone plugged in. So, if that's not the case I think that's very reassuring, but I think that would have to be in the development agreement; right? No amplified sound, no speakers, you know, if you are limiting yourself to string lights I think those are hopefully okay. But my question for you I think is do you want to craft this development agreement here tonight or would you like a continuance to reflect further, perhaps work with the neighbors and -- or however you want to approach it, but it's a -- sort of a -- I guess tactical and a business question for you. Are you ready to sort of make some of those decisions, knowing that they would really impact your business and ask for a decision tonight and try to work through the provisions of a development agreement or are you -- don't want maybe take a couple of weeks to work through that and, then, come back. Just trying to kind of prompt that thought process. Major: Yeah. And I also want to be sensitive to the time. I know it's -- I don't know how long these normally go for. I definitely have clarity on the items that I have listed. I think Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 60 of 79 the question is whether or not they would be considered amenable to -- to our residents that we have here. Simison: And I don't want to be presumptuous to the other Council Members that are up here as well on their openness or willingness -- and I will just throw out one other comment. Do you need the backyard for your proof of concept? Is that a necessary first step or not? I'm just going to leave it there. I don't expect an answer, but as part of the conversation, because that seems to be where there is a fair amount of question marks is what happens outside versus inside and I thought the inside had empty space for most patrons, but what do I know? Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor. Question for either Stacy or Bill. That temporary use permit for outdoor events, the 160 days. So, the typically you have the warmer weather months. Is that limited or is it just 160 days whatever dates they choose, evenings they choose, days they choose to -- to use that permit? Is there restrictions on that? Can there be restrictions? Nary: So, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Council Member Hoaglun, yeah, there can be restrictions. I mean we do -- we do have to work with the applicant to figure out what they are doing and when they are doing it, because generally it is a -- certain types of businesses, for example, they want 160 days in a row. But many other types of businesses want them for, you know, three days here, three days here. You know, they want it over a period of time, because of the type of activity. So, there really can be a lot of work going into these CUPs and they do go through the police department as well to weigh in and the clerk's office, my office. So, yeah, we do a lot of work on trying to fashion what it is, so -- and, again, we are trying to look at what's going to be disruptive and what's going to be impactful to neighbors and things like that. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Yeah. Those are important, because, you know, we are dealing with people right next to a facility if this gets approved that could be -- you know, you have neighbors and they have a -- and they are back fence neighbors and they are nice people and they have a birthday party for their kid and it's a big birthday party and there is lots of noise and yelling and whatever. But, hey, it's a birthday party and you put up with it. No big deal. But if you have that every Saturday night or during the day all summer long, boy, that -- you are impacting the quality of life of the people who live there. Major: And I think about that from a programming standpoint, you know, we would ideally start small and have, you know, one to two events and I guess there is a definitional clarification I would like to understand as well is does it -- does a temporary use permit mean that we can't use the backyard space at all or only for -- or is that for Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 61 of 79 event permission? Because I'm thinking, for example, a book club. Is a book club an event? Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor, I would leave that to -- to Mr. Nary to respond to. To me it doesn't seem like it's an event, as opposed to you are having people over for a specific -- Major: For a reading or a -- Hoaglun: Yeah. Event. Major: -- author series. Nary: Yeah. Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, let me -- let me just pull that up really quick. It really kind of does depend on what the event is. Ten people over for a book club is not likely to trigger the CUP requirement. You know, again, it's really -- it is always a conversation with the clerk's office, planning, legal department, fire department, police department on what is it, because it is hard to know, because -- and, again, oftentimes the event people don't know. They think it's going to be 500 people or a hundred people and it's really ten. Sometimes it's going to be ten people and there is 50. So, I think a lot of it is trying to figure out to navigate through that, so -- Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Just a few things. I think Councilman Borton mentioned, you know, life experience kind of comes into play and you look at things through that lens and -- and, Chelsea, I love your concept. I just think it's fantastic. I can see myself there having the books. I take my coffee with cream, you know, being outside, that sort of thing. It's a great concept and in the '80s my wife had a business and it's the same thing. She loves chocolate. She makes gourmet chocolates and has this wonderful product, but she knew because of the holiday seasons that's the big time, but, okay, then, we had a sandwiches part of it and, then, there was, you know, ice cream she included in that, because you have to cover all your bases. So, you are approaching it just right from that business standpoint of making sure you can -- you can have a good income flow throughout -- throughout the year and -- and, obviously, with the friends that testified you -- you market well, you are out there in the community and that's all a good thing and you want to grow this business and nothing wrong with that, but what if you outgrow the space? What does that do to that particular location? In my neighborhood -- because I hear this all the time -- we have patio homes senior citizens to live in and there is full landscaping here, they have a sidewalk on the back, there is a strip mall area or just a business -- commercial. Everything's zoned commercial. So, people know that when the houses were built that's commercial and you had chiropractors and an insurance office and some other things, 8.00 to 5.00, 8.00 to 6.00. Worked out well. Two restaurants moved in. Outdoor patios. You know the complaints I get from seniors is about not being able to sit on their patio to enjoy their evening. It's a lot. It is a lot. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 62 of 79 So, that's part of my experience as being colored here from those people being impacted because other people are out having a good time and enjoying their time. Fortunately, one restaurant put -- after they heard the neighbors complain, because they talked to them, they quit playing music. I mean they had live music, you know, and they are trying to enjoy their evenings and -- and so that's -- that's why -- what -- when -- when people talk about their home and this -- this is a quandary, because this is an area we want to have this vibrancy. I'm -- like I said, I love your vision for that. It's just fantastic. But at the same time the impact it has on the people around it -- if this was on the corner or over a block then -- and a little more space, you have the vacant lot for parking -- and that's the other thing, the event thing. We -- we had a major discussion here -- oh, it's been several months and -- with a major parking lot. But because of what they are proposing and the neighbor is farther away, it was an issue and they remodified their plan and everything and we are still not sure how it's going to work, but if you have an event, 40 people, and they are going to be coming in, I don't know where he put 40 cars, especially in the evening in -- in the neighborhood area. It's just -- and I struggle with it, because I -- I see the vision like Sean and Josh and others have for Old Town and I know the area very well, by the way. When I moved to Meridian in 1970 1 lived on Carlton right near 2nd -- 3rd Street. So -- so, I rode my bike all through -- even all the alleys. So, it was just -- I like that place. It has a special place in my heart because of it. And, then, when I got older we moved on the other side of town, Northwest 4th Street, so I went from -- located -- you know, wasn't -- the other side of the tracks, except the tracks aren't there. So, I understand -- I understand that neighborhood feel and what that's like and the transition and there is some amazing things happening in Meridian in this area and expanding and those are the types of visions we want. But in some ways I'm thinking is it too soon for that in that particular location? How do we have that transition -- and maybe there is not a real answer and maybe it is investors coming in and buying up three houses in a row and, then, saying, okay, we own these properties. Here is what we plan. We are going to have somebody with insurance. There is going to be a coffee house with events. There is going to be this. I don't know what that looks like, but I do struggle with this -- with this application just based on those life experiences and seeing those things that really impact people who want to enjoy their homes and that's -- that's hard. That's hard. So, I want you to be successful, but at the same time I'm -- I want you to know I'm struggling with this one. Major: Thank you. Thank you for your feedback. Overton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Overton. Overton: You have just listened to three of the wisest people up here on this Council. What Councilman Borton, Council Member Strader and Councilman Hoaglun have just told you from three different perspectives is spot on. I'm the newest member of this Council, but I have lived in the city for 46 years and I will tell you right now I love your concept. I don't ever want to have a business come up here and set you up to fail and what I'm concerned, about to kind of try to tie all these three together, is I'm struggling Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 63 of 79 with approving it in this location today, but I'm also struggling with trying to whittle down your business plan to such a point that we try to approve it and that we don't set you up for success. You have a business plan and if we start whittling down how you operate to the point that you struggle trying to get a business off the ground, then, we are really not succeeding. So, when Council Woman Strader talked about maybe getting a continuance, think about what's most important and where you go from here. I will tell you right now I'm struggling with this. I like the term that was mentioned earlier that was called a leapfrog development. That was insightful to me. I think this is a couple blocks too far into current residential for what we want today. Major: Thank you. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Mr. Nary. Nary: I have been looking through the temporary use standards to help maybe that question that arose. So, basically, a temporary use permit is needed to -- to do something you are not currently allowed to do in the situation you are in. So, for example, if this business were to sell beer and wine, there is going to be a footprint that has to be approved by both the state and the city. So, if the yard is part of the footprint of the serving area that has to be approved by both the state and the city. So, that means, again, they could have a beer in the backyard and, again, if the reading books and whatever that's fine. Again, I think the temporary is going to come into play, like Stacy said earlier, when they want to put up a tent, because they are going to have a larger event or it's the middle of the summer. They want to put up lights or they want to have a speaker system. They want to have something more than what they are allowed, because right now what you are talking about from the DA standard is that they are -- they wouldn't have any outside application, they wouldn't have any large scale lighting, they wouldn't be allowed to do those types of events there. They are talking about ticketed events that have more than ten or 15 people. So, normally we don't do temporary permits for ten or 15 people. Usually it is an actual event that's based on what the activity they are planning to do and what the potential draw could be. So, don't know if that answers totally the question, but it really is -- there really is a lot of other things in play and restrictions that may come into place, but that's -- that's kind of the temporary use piece of it. So, just to answer your question it may or may not be necessary for just the average daily use of that space, because the yard and the interior is -- is probably going to be part of the same product, so -- Major: Thank you. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 64 of 79 Cavener: Good conversation tonight. I talk a lot about my love of local government when I'm up here, because it's the closest to the people and I was talking to somebody in the -- in the break and like I don't understand how you can do this; right? You know, we are going on three hours talking about something that is about one particular piece of property in our community. But I love the conversation from our Council. I want to be real up front. I came in tonight echoing some of the comments of my fellow Council Members that maybe this is a block or two too far right now. So, I appreciate the public testimony and what I heard and saw tonight was, man, there is this business here and there is this business across the street and there is this business that's kitty corner and so it really opened my eyes about what is -- what is our downtown going to be. Oftentimes here at the City Council we have a large scale residential application with lots of homes that's in the county; right? And so it coming in from the county and we hear from our citizens who live in the county to kind of say they didn't move to Meridian, Meridian moved to them and -- and there is a little of this kind of in play; right? It's that downtown for so many years was this little kind of four corners of commercial business with residential that surrounded it and for lots of -- for people who want to be mayor talk about wanting to grow the economic vitality of downtown Meridian and this is that. And so I -- I started to kind of think to myself, well, what does downtown Meridian look like ten years from now or 20 years from now or 50 years from now when we are all not here and this may be a struggle for some people, but I think it is more commercial businesses than are there today and that's going to be a challenge for our community, for our existing resident -- residential neighbors, for our existing businesses, but what I have -- what I have seen today, though, is that there are businesses that are in this area and it came back to some of my initial questions with you earlier tonight is what makes this business different than the other business that are existing, what makes this particular piece of -- of property necessary for your business success and -- and I think the conclusion that have drawn is -- to the good conversations of -- of Council Member Borton and Strader, is some narrowing, perhaps some -- some increasing of some sideboards now, with the opportunity to come back at a later point in time in the future, that as our community grows and expands commercially that maybe your business grows and expands commercially as well, that I think I could be supportive of this tonight. So, I know we are not necessarily at that deliberation mode, but we have heard some deliberation from Council Members and so I just wanted to add my two cents. I -- as I started my comments that I think this is a great business, this is going to be great for -- for downtown Meridian and we just need to find the right balance of meeting your business success needs. We are also managing some of the impact of this business would have on some of your surrounding neighbors. Major: Thank you. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Just one more thing. I wanted to clarify my -- my comment at the start and that is that I -- I was not attempting to abdicate making a decision for you -- making a Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 65 of 79 decision this evening. It was simply to encourage you to be the one to make the decisions about how your business is going to run. So, if you are in agreement with closing at 8:00 instead of 10:00, 1 want you to be the one that comes and says, hey, this is what I'm willing to do. I would much rather hear that from you than for us to -- to suggest those modifications to you. We are willing to do that for sure. We have and we are willing as -- as my fellow Council has explained that -- what that would look like. But I would love for you to come back to us -- to -- to continue this and come back to us and think about your business model to the extent of -- you know, if your sales really are reliant on everything but the books, what does that mean for the future of your business? I don't -- I don't know and I want -- you know, I want to know is -- is -- is 50 percent -- I want you to know is 50 percent of your income to run -- to run your business is going to be for sales other than books and, then, what does that mean if there are limitations put on you, such that you wouldn't be able to sell alcohol or you wouldn't be able to stay open late. So, I don't want us to sort of sit and make those decisions and come back and say, well, we would rather you close at 8:00 and not sell -- sell beer and wine. Well, that's kind of a -- that's -- that's an effort in futility in my opinion. So, that's kind of -- that's where I was coming from with this -- my statement about not wanting to make a decision on your behalf without you really coming to the decision of how that -- how those limitations that your neighbor -- the neighbors are suggesting would really affect your business. Major: No. No. That's helpful clarity. I -- you know, I -- when I came up with this concept in 2021 it was from experience and seeing bookstores that did this same thing elsewhere and so this wasn't something that is a recent idea that I have thought through and why I say that is sometimes it's hard to hold the vision, right, for our city, for our community, but we do and I appreciate your insight and I appreciate all of your advice and guidance, because this is -- this is tricky; right? This is -- for me it's uncharted territory. I have had a bookstore, but it's been a very different shape and size. It's been in my guest room for the last year and a half and I haul it around. So, with that I mean I definitely think there are some things that I would, you know, not be able to do in order to sustain my business and, for example, you know, keeping it to 9:00 p.m. I think that's reasonable, but I think if we try to make it 7.00 or 8.00 p.m. that does run into challenges, because most people aren't going to go to an event that starts at 5:00 p.m. I know when I do things sometimes in the city I get really excited about it. I have that opportunity, because I can just walk and get there, but if you have to drop off your kids, if you have to, you know, run home before you come to an event you kind of want it to start closer to 7:00 o'clock. So, looking at a 7:00 o'clock start time, 9:00 p.m. is kind of really hitting on that max. Any other questions? Yeah. Comments. Go ahead. Simison: Where is that coming from? I heard you. Borton: We both spoke at the same time. Simison: Councilman Borton. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 66 of 79 Borton: Yeah. So what if we -- what if we did this. I -- we just -- we are all kind of thinking similar with our concerns here. It certainly doesn't sound like it's prudent to proceed to continuance. If -- if Council's willing seems appropriate and -- and what you would bring back is that thoughtful list of here is the -- from -- from all of the bullet points of -- of topics we have addressed here is things -- and -- and Councilman Overton is spot on -- that I can be very successful within these parameters. I can't do this, but I can do this, this, this on hours and light and sound and parking. You know, go talk to Josh and Laure again; right? Hear from your neighbors. Listen. Get their thoughts on those parameters and, then, at that next hearing bring back and say -- you may choose to say here is what I can agree to. Condition my property with the DA that limits it to these parameters and here is, you know, the work I did to get to those parameters and -- and we will see if it's enough to balance the considerations we have talked about, see if it addresses the Council's concerns. It may. It may not. See if it addresses the concerns of the public and your neighbors. It may or may not. But probably not possible to do that tonight. Major: It feels a little bit of a daunting task. Borton: A bit daunting and we want to get it right. Not necessarily -- right. Major: We want to -- we want to make sure it -- it aligns with what we need for the community and for the neighbors, as well as for our business, so thank you. Borton: Understood. Unless there is a date. Simison: I think Councilman -- I think someone's been working on a potential date. Hoaglun: Yes, if the applicant -- hopefully you would be available the 25th of July. It's a Tuesday night. Surprise. Major: Don't think I have book club that night. Hoaglun: Okay. And we -- we can do that. I think, Council Woman Strader, that was kind of your idea, so -- Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: I move that we continue the public hearing to July 25th. Overton: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing until July 25th. Is there discussion? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 67 of 79 Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Question either for Council Member Strader or staff, applicant. Is the intent to bring back -- for the applicant to bring back a development agreement as part of that continuance? So, I just -- I want to make -- I -- I appreciate -- you know, you are -- you are doing this on your own and so I want to make sure that we are all clear about kind of what those expectations are for when you come back. So, Stacy, I'm looking at you maybe for some direction or Council Member Strader for some direction about what we are -- what we are looking for. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: I would -- just to speak for myself, at least what I would be looking for is a set of key points to be included in a development agreement that would be drafted after that public hearing. I would not personally expect a fully drafted development agreement at that point. I think that would be asking for like a little bit cart before the horse type deal. Simison: Okay. Is there further discussion? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Mr. Nary? Nary: I was going to say yes, but we would want to do the development agreement after the fact, not -- not before. So, I was agreeing with Council Woman Strader. Simison: Okay. Cavener: Just to -- Mr. Mayor? Maybe ask for the applicant -- you have heard the -- you have heard the term used a little bit about neighborly. So, I would encourage you to, again, stay engaged with your neighbors, those that voiced tepid support, a little bit of opposition, very vocal opposition, I just -- we try and encourage that as best we can. Major: Thank you. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: I have been trying to form this thought all evening and I'm going to make an attempt, but I will probably babble. So, in Idaho as a state we have always been supportive of personal property rights. That's something that makes our state incredibly Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 68 of 79 unique to our neighboring states, which is that we really value the ability to do what we like to do within appropriate limitations with our property and I just want to say that for me continuing this application to make consideration of the solutions that you might bring and not denying the application this evening is an effort to -- you know, to honor that -- that personal property right value that -- that our state holds. That's why our state doesn't allow cities to -- to just arbitrarily deny requests for the use of property. That's why we go through this process that other states don't necessarily do and so I -- I feel any -- any applicant that would come and -- and attempt to put a business in their home we would give them this equal opportunity to be heard and I think the process is really important, because you never know who will want an open business in -- in downtown at some point and so I just want to say that we -- we are hearing everyone. We are hearing the neighbors' concerns. Not denying this application does not mean we are not hearing the neighbors' concerns. Absolutely. But we have to stay within the narrow decision making, you know, limitations that we have regarding this rezone. So, this isn't about whether we love bookstores. This isn't about whether, you know, we -- this is just -- this is very narrowly as this -- how is this going to affect the community in balance with your right to ask for a request to -- to operate on the property that you own. So, I want to say that, because I don't want our neighbors to assume that the opportunity for you to come back and bring some additional information is us unequivocally giving a green light. It is just us making sure we have all the information, such that our decision is super well thought out. Major: Thank you. Simison: Council, is there any further discussion on the motion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and this item is continued. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. Major: Thank you. 6. Public Hearing for Compass Pointe Subdivision (H-2023-0004) by A Team Land Consultants, located at 3245 and 3247 S. Locust Grove Rd. A. Request: Annexation of 7.69 acres of land with an R-8 zoning district. B. Request: Preliminary Plat consisting of 21 residential building lots and 6 common lots. Simison: Okay. With that we will move on to Item 6 this evening. Public hearing for Compass Pointe Subdivision, H-2023-0004. We will open this public hearing with staff comments. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 69 of 79 Hersh: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. The applicant has submitted applications for Compass Pointe Subdivision, annexation and zoning, preliminary plat, private streets application and alternative compliance. The size of the property -- their site consists of 7.69 acres of land, currently zoned RUT in Ada county, located at 3245 and 3247 South Locust Grove. History on the property is -- was an annexation application with preliminary plat, alternative compliance with private streets that was previously denied by Council. The Comprehensive Plan FLUM designation is medium density residential and the summary of the request is the preliminary plat is consisting of 21 residential building lots and six common lots with a proposed R-8 zoning district. Private streets are proposed for internal access within the development. Alternative compliance is requested to UDC to allow the -- the proposed private street to connect to the Locust Grove and arterial streets. Proposed lots range in size from 5,000 to 7,529 square feet. The proposed gross density of the subdivision is 2.96 units per acre. An existing home and outbuilding on the subject property are proposed to be removed with the development of this property. There is alternative compliance to the private street standards is requested due to the triangular shape bordered on two sides by arterial streets, on one side by the Ten Mile Creek. There is no opportunity for connectivity to any adjacent site lot, so ACHD prefers private streets within the development. Consequently, because private streets take less right of way than public streets and most notably because of the constraints just noted, the applicant agrees with the assessment and has proposed private streets throughout the development. Based on the analysis the director is supportive of the request for alternative compliance for the proposed private streets within the development taking access from an arterial street. City code requires that private streets are to be used in either a new or gated development. So, the applicant has proposed to construct a gated entry into the development. The proposed gate looks to meet the setback standard of 50 feet from the ultimate edge of right of way per the UDC. Off-street parking is required to be provided with the standards listed in the UDC for single family dwellings based on the number of bedrooms per -- per unit. Staff will confirm this compliance with these standards of the time -- at the time of building permit submittal for each residence. The proposed street sections, 24 foot wide with attached sidewalk of the private streets within the development shown on a submitted preliminary plat, cannot accommodate parking on either side of the street. The entirety of the private streets will be required to be labeled as no parking per the Meridian Fire Department recommendations. Each unit will be required to meet the off-street parking standards and staff encourages the developer of the site to include provisions within their HOA bylaws that prohibit garages being used as storage. This would help alleviate some of the parking issues seen throughout the city and especially in the areas where no on-street parking is allowed. The applicant is showing guest parking along Compass Lane totaling 13 additional spaces. Lot 6, Block 3, is proposing six guest spaces. Lot 2, Block 2, is proposing seven guest spaces. Both are within a common lot. However, staff is not qualifying these areas as open space. Five foot attached sidewalks are proposed along both sides of the main entrance, on one side of all internal private streets. Sidewalks are not required when constructing private streets. There is no existing sidewalk along Victory Road or Locust Grove. Only a portion of a ten foot sidewalk along the southeast of South Locust Grove Road is proposed with this project, because both arterial streets are currently under construction to be widened as part of Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 70 of 79 the roundabout project at this intersection by ACHD. A 25 foot landscape buffer is required adjacent to East -- East Victory and South Locust Grove Roads. Both are designated as arterial streets. The buffer should be landscaped per the standards in the UDC and placed into a common lot that is at least 25 foot wide. In most cases the common lot should also contain the detached sidewalk required along all arterial roadways, but in the case a portion of the sidewalk abutting the site will be built with the ACHD roundabout project. The applicant is constructing the remaining portion of the sidewalk on the southeast property boundary adjacent to South Locust Grove. The landscape plan depicts a ten foot sidewalk connecting to the ten foot sidewalk to be constructed by ACHD. The submitted landscape plan and preliminary plat depict a landscape buffer. The correct number of trees appear to be shown on the submitted plans. The plan appears to meet the standards in the UDC. Common open space site and amenities -- a minimum of 15 percent or 1 .06 acres based on 7.0 acres. Qualified open space is required to be provided in this development per the standards listed in the UDC. An open space exhibit was submitted that depicts 2.22 acres of common open space for the development with 1.06 acres of this area as qualified open space. The minimum amount of qualified open space required is 1 .06, approximately 46174, square feet. There are four main open space areas proposed with -- within the Compass Pointe. The centralized open space includes a sitting area, a pickle ball court, a pocket park near the entrance will have a gazebo with a picnic area plaza and sitting area. Dog park with sitting area, wrought iron fencing, and linear open space along the northern boundary next to the Ten Mile Creek. The open space for this development is vastly made up of the Ten Mile Creek easement and the arterial street buffers. All of this area is qualifying, but the Ten Mile Creek will be left natural and -- and will be a buffer and more of a visual amenity, rather than usable open space for this development. Due to the peculiar shape of the site staff finds the proposed open space satisfy the UDC requirements. However, staff recommends the applicant submit a revised open space exhibit that aligns with the landscape plan illustrating the vehicle turnaround, the 25 foot landscape buffer required and the ten foot sidewalk connection along South Locust Grove Road. Based on the area of the proposed plat, which is the 7.08 acres, a minimum of one qualified site amenity is required to be provided per the standards in the UDC. The applicant has proposed three qualifying amenities in multiple locations. Gazebos, a picnic area, seating around small plazas, pickle ball court with a seating area and dog park. The proposed amenities exceed the minimum UDC requirements and the staff find these to be applicable for a community of this kind due to the variety of activity levels that can be accommodated. The Ten Mile Creek runs along the western boundary of the site. The irrigation easement is depicted on the plat and no encroachments are allowed within this easement. The landscape plan depicts a landscape buffer that looks to be at least five feet in width adjacent to the irrigation easement line on the landscape plan. All fencing is required to comply with the UDC standards according to the submitted landscape plan. The applicant is proposing three types of fencing throughout the site. Six foot vinyl solid fencing, six foot wrought iron fencing and four foot wrought iron fencing. The landscape plan appears to be in compliance with this requirement. There are two conceptual building elevations that were submitted that demonstrate what future homes in this development will look like. The two-story homes that include a variation of materials with a two car garage are Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 71 of 79 proposed. The submitted elevations depict a number of different architectural and design styles with different materials of lap siding, shake, stucco, differing colors, accents, roof profiles and distinct windows and styles. Staff recommends that the applicant add additional stone or brick accents. The front of the homes to provide more of a variation of materials and provide -- and provide additional elevations of the two stories and single story homes. Staff is recommending a condition of approval. The applicant vary the build to lines along the northern boundary within the development to eliminate any monotonous wall plane and this should occur with every third structure showing a different wall plane, which they have sent revised plans showing us how that would look on the right. And the condition of approval of --just wanted to mention of the final plat application should not be submitted until the intersection improvements are substantially completed by ACHD, which they are currently under construction now. Commission did recommend approval and the summary of the public hearing is in favor with Steve Arnold. In opposition was none. Commenting was Steve. Written testimony is none. No key issues. No discussion -- no key issues of discussion by Commission. No changes to the staff recommendations and no outstanding issues for City Council. And there were -- is not any written testimony since the Commission hearing and I also wanted to share with you ACHD's five year work plan, so you could see what was planned around that area. If I can find it. Well, for some reason I am having a hard time bringing it up. Yeah. I don't know why it's not coming up. It's not even on there. This one. Simison: All right. We will -- we will go ahead and call the applicant up and find the five year work plan. I think I know it off the top of my head, but -- Hersh: Okay. Here we go. Sorry. It was right in front of me and I didn't notice it. So, this is ACHD's five year work plan in this area, along -- for the road improvements, just so you could see what's going on with what dates and the Locust Grove roundabout is 2023, which is currently under construction on Locust Grove. There is also the Locust Grove and Victory Road bridge that is -- construction year is 2023. And on Victory we also have the roundabout on this side that is currently under construction in 2023. So, I just wanted to let you see that. Simison: It will all be done within the month. We hope. Hersh: And that concludes my -- my presentation. Simison: Thank you, Stacy. Council, any questions for staff? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you, Stacy. Apologize if I missed this, but with the additional parking, because there is not parking permitted on the streets, how was that analyzed in terms of Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 72 of 79 parking that will be used for common area and, then, additional parking used for guest spaces? Are they meeting that requirement or exceeding it? Hersh: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, so they are not actually required to have this parking. It's addition to, because there isn't a clubhouse or any other sort of thing that would require us to approve more parking, it -- it was added in as extra for visitors. Simison: Council, any additional questions for staff? Welcome. Arnold: Feels good right here. For the record Steve -- Steve Arnold. I'm with A-Team Land Consultants. 1785 Whisper Cove, Boise. 83709. I'm going to hit it real quickly on the parking. The -- we do have two garage stalls and, then, two stalls outside of the garage, so -- for additional parking. And, then, the additional parking, the guest -- the real guest parking we have got the 13 stalls and I think we have got one or two handicap spaces in there as well. So, to kind of give you an overview for those who didn't see this the last time, this was denied by P&Z, then, approved by P&Z, then, tabled and, then, denied by Council. So, you have -- this has been here before and I will go through what we have done to hopefully have addressed some of the concerns. So, one of the biggest ones was the -- the number of units -- and we dropped it more than half. The big -- the other big hang up was the type of building. The Council at the time didn't feel that townhomes in that vicinity were appropriate. This time around we are doing a straight R-8 zone. We are not doing the R-15 or a PUD. So, that said we are not asking for any kind of reductions and setbacks or variances from code. Stacy mentioned all the amenities. I won't go through that again. As well as the sidewalks. All of -- since we have been here, you know, it's -- ACHD basically used our site to help construct the intersection. All the buildings, all the trees have been demoed. So, we are basically dealing with a -- a flat site now. I won't go through fencing. Stacy hit that. All the utilities are at the -- the site. We will be extending all public utilities into each lot and along with PI. Stacy went into the private road. We will have CC&Rs to help govern a lot of the things, as Stacy brought up tonight. We will have a -- a section in there that discusses about storage in the garages. One thing that wasn't discussed is we have worked with VRT since the last time we had met and we do have a bus pull out. So, that's one of the different things, along with just all the single family. Here was the original site plan. There is a lot busier. Basically towns again. Here is the new one with the landscape plan that chose all of the landscaping that we are putting in. And, then, here is the preliminary plat that we have modified since the time of P&Z making all the requested changes. You have seen the elevations, so -- I'm trying to keep this quick. It's past all of our bedtimes. The project conforms with city code, the comp plan and we have made all the staff recommendations and Council requests and we have taken in all the neighborhood concerns. For those of you not familiar with the project we are building out all the lots. So, the plan is to build the units and, then, sell the homes. Basically we are an in-fill. We are now surrounded by development. The three main areas of previous concern was traffic, the intersection timing, the product type and density, and that's all been resolved. So, that said we ask for your approval and that was quick. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 73 of 79 Simison: Thank you. Council, questions for the applicant? Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: More of a comment. Getting denied stinks. Arnold: Yeah. Borton: Certainly in the short term. But in prep for this application I think this is a great example of a good denial, which led to a much better project. It really did. Going through the difficult earlier steps you described, I think this project is much better than earlier presented, so appreciate the hard work and the changes that you made into it. Arnold: Yeah. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: I want to echo Council Member Borton's comments. Steve, I -- I know I was really critical about this project when it was before us. I had some real challenges with it and I just want to thank you and your team for coming back, improved application. I do have one question for you and -- and, you know, I think public streets have a place and I think that they probably make sense here in this project. My question is would you be willing to put a condition on yourself to -- to prohibit short term rentals from being used in this project? The reason why is that I worry about an influx of -- of vehicles and potentially life-saving measures being limited because of the access challenges and I don't know if that's something that you guys have considered that's a prohibition you would be willing to put on yourself. I just think that's something that -- I appreciate that you are developing and are going to sell the -- sell the homes, but there will be a point in time where you guys will be gone and I just -- I worry about some of the impact that your future home buyers may face that they were unprepared for, because they weren't dealing with a public street. Arnold: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, we originally talked to ACHD trying to do public streets and ACHD is now taking the stance, which is different from when I was there, that if -- if the street only serves the one property they require private. So, originally we -- we did come in and now we had the -- a little bit of flexibility that we may have been able to do public, but, again, we were flat out told no. And, then, in regards to the short-term rentals prohibiting -- I don't know how that would look and I -- I really don't know how that can be enforced and that's maybe a -- a question for Bill. Nary: So, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, a few years ago there was a case with the Idaho Supreme Court that, then, ended up in the legislature regarding short-term Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 74 of 79 rentals and what they decided -- the -- the legislature decided is that if you are going to have a short-term rental it has to be at the outset of the development, so the -- from the very first initial one -- and, again, you should talk to separate counsel. But my understanding of the code was it -- it only allowed it if it was the outset of the development from the beginning. What had happened in that prior case, they had changed the rules after the development had been implemented and the Supreme Court agreed with it and the Idaho -- Idaho legislature overruled that by changing the code and requiring it. But they also place stronger restrictions on cities from restricting short-term rentals. So, we have a much more limited ability to restrict short-term rentals unless we do it citywide, which we do not currently do, and we have limitations on what we can even do even if we do it citywide. So, the city can't currently prohibit that type of -- that type of use, but the property owner who developed the property does. And, again, I would consult with your own counsel to verify that that's the case. But that's my recollection of the way the code was drafted. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Mr. Nary, can you clarify -- when you mean setting -- setting that up from the outset, you are talking about the -- the covenants and restrictions would have to say from the outset that that is a limitation and they can't be amended in the future. You are not saying that the property owner would have to start using it as an Airbnb immediately upon occupancy. Nary: No. I think -- again, I would clarify with your own counsel, but I believe both the articles to incorporate to create the LLC, normally that is the -- the business entity that essentially is the corporation that is the HOA and, then, the CC&Rs that go with the HOA would also all need to reflect that use is prohibited. Now, again, that becomes an enforcement issue that HOAs have to deal with, but that's the only way in my recollection of that code that's allowed, because at the beginning basically the legislature's rationale was if that's the way it was developed that's okay. That's what you bought into. In the case that went to the Supreme Court it was not developed that way. They changed the rules to prohibit it and, then, the Idaho Supreme Court upheld it and the legislature overruled it. Arnold: It's kind of late. Simison: Yeah. I -- I think what I -- I -- I understand what Councilman Cavener is getting at and I -- I guess I would put it in this way. This doesn't connect anything. It's almost like you put it in a restriction no Super Bowl parties, no house warming parties, no Christmas parties, because there is no safe place for people to park if you have more than 15 people come over to your home nearby. I mean trying -- you are going to be -- have to drive to another neighborhood and, then, walk in or down. I'm not going to say it's impossible -- not possible, but there is nothing else around here. So, hopefully, your product and your -- the people -- that's something someone's going to deal with at Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 75 of 79 some point in time. And, like I said, we -- we could open up our well site across the street to allow public parking. That might be the best option outside of anything else in that area. But it's just going to be kind of -- it's going to be an island, you know, in that regard. So, that's my bigger process. I couldn't do my Christmas party here if I lived in this area, because there is not parking. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: So, Steve, I have seen a lot of private street -- we have seen a lot of private street applications lately and not all of them are as narrow as 24 feet. So, my question for you is the same I asked every applicant. When there are HVAC trucks, furniture delivery trucks, garbage trucks and every other kind of vehicle that's large, where do they park -- let's say that there is a delivery coming in and it's going -- and they are delivering flooring or something and they are going to be there two or three hours, where do they park? Are they supposed to always park in the driveway, because driveways may not be long enough to accommodate that? So, where can those vehicles park? Because -- I mean -- I don't know about you, but I live in a neighborhood where there is an Amazon truck, a Norco truck, a furniture delivery truck, an HVAC truck all on the same public street at the same time frequently and that's a public street with plenty of parking. So, help me understand how those vehicles, which are becoming more and more frequent as we have more delivery options to our home, how -- where do they go and where would -- where would they be guided to park in the development? Arnold: Mayor Simison, Council Woman Perreault, we could -- let me look at the site plan here. I mean if that's a serious concern we could blow out some areas for open space for loading and unloading parking. I'm not -- I'm in the wrong one. You know and/or widen -- let's say widen out the roadway near the pickle ball court. I have some space in there and we could have a loading and unloading area or something like that. But going back to parking. So, that was one of the things why we did add quite a bit of additional parking that we didn't need. It was just for that -- for the guests that come, so -- Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: We had an application a few months ago that -- where there was concerns about the amount of dualies and long trucks and -- I mean that -- you know, a lot of them don't fit on a regular standard sized driveway. They don't fit in the garage and they -- so, there is -- so we just recommended, yeah, setting apart some specific spots that are extra long and that might be something you want to consider in addition to having one or two loading and unloading spaces that are large enough for a commercial vehicle. I think that that really -- that -- that's one of the very serious considerations I imagine that the fire department has is that those vehicles tend to be the ones that stop Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 76 of 79 and park in front of a home, because they assume they are going to be there for 20 minutes and sometimes they are there for two or three hours, just depending on the situation, so -- appreciate that. Thank you. Arnold: Yeah. To follow up on that, too, I don't think I mentioned -- and it wasn't brought up tonight, we do -- we -- even though we don't need the fire access, we are still proposing that. I think that -- and it's out -- going out to Victory Road. I -- I think -- you know, it wasn't required by fire, but, you know, it -- it makes a nice connection for pedestrians and it -- it doesn't hurt anything. So, we are adding the extra fire access. Simison: Council, additional questions for the applicant? Okay. Thank you. We do have one person online. I don't know if they signed up in advance to testify. Okay. Well, if there is anybody online that would like to provide testimony, please, use the raise your hand feature on Zoom. They are not raising their hand. There is no one else in the room. Would the applicant like to make any final comments? Arnold: No. I have no additional comments and I will answer any additional questions. Simison: Okay. Council, to you. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I just want to reach out before Steve he leaves. Do you want us to continue? We -- we could continue. Arnold: Put -- put me behind the last one -- the next one on the 25th. Simison: Okay. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Steve, you really did improve it. I'm -- I'm -- I'm happy with some of the changes. I appreciate the reduction in density and it's -- it's a tough shape to work within. So, I feel for you and thanks for hanging with us through the process. I -- I don't mind making a motion, unless we want to keep -- okay. Mr. Mayor, I'm -- oh. Has he made final comments yet? Simison: Yes, he has. Strader: Oh, it's getting so late. Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 77 of 79 Strader: I move that we close the public hearing. Cavener: Second. Simison: Motion and second to close the public hearing. All in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the public hearing closed. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Appreciate all the changes made here. Thanks, Councilman Overton. He's the best. After considering all staff, applicant and public testimony, I move to approve File No. H-2023-0011 as presented in the staff report for today's hearing date. Cavener: Second. Simison: Motion and a second to approve Item 6. Is there any discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll. Roll Call: Hoaglun, yea; Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Perreault, yea; Strader, yea; Overton, yea. Simison: All ayes. Motion carries and the item is agreed to. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. ORDINANCES [Action Item] 7. Ordinance No. 23-2022: An ordinance repealing Title 7, Chapter 3, Meridian City Code, regarding motor vehicle emissions control; and providing an effective date. Simison: Thanks, Steve. All right. With that we will move on to Item 7, which is Ordinance No. 23-2022. Ask the Clerk to read this ordinance by title. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. It's an ordinance to deliberate -- sorry. An ordinance repealing Title 7, Chapter 3, Meridian City Code, regarding motor vehicle emission control and providing an effective date. Simison: Thank you. Council, you have heard this ordinance read by title. Is there anybody that would like it read in its entirety? Nary: Mr. Mayor? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 78 of 79 Simison: Hearing none, Councilman -- Mr. Nary. Nary: Yes. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, I -- I don't want it read in its entirety. I do want to just make it clear for the public record, because I have seen a lot of news reports. So, the Air Quality Board has repealed this based on a DEQ recommendation. So, it is no longer going to be required in Ada County as of July 1st. If you had a requirement to have your car tested by June 30th, it's still is required to be tested. So -- and -- and all the same rules apply to that one. So, if it's June 30th you have to still test it. If it's July 1st you don't. So, I just wanted to make sure if someone were to be watching this at some point, understand that this is not a get out-of-jail-free card today, it's next month. Simison: Thank you. Councilman Cavener, did you have any comments? Cavener: No. Simison: Oh. Okay. Any further questions or comments? If not, Clerk will call the roll. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, did we make a motion for the ordinance? Simison: Sorry. I apologize. Perreault: I don't want to lose my chance. Simison: Who would like to repeal this -- to cut government? Perreault: I changed my mind. I want it read in its entirety. Mr. Mayor, I approve -- I move that we approve Ordinance No. 23-2022. Cavener: Second. Simison: Have a motion and a second to approve Ordinance No. 23-2022. Is there any discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll. Roll Call: Hoaglun, yea; Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Perreault, yea; Strader, yea; Overton, yea. Simison: All ayes. Motion carries and the item is agreed to. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. FUTURE MEETING TOPICS Simison: Council, anything under future meeting topics? Meridian City Council June 27,2023 Page 79 of 79 Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor, tonight's discussion got me thinking, you know, the bookstore with the wine and beer and the 300 foot deal in Old Town, I -- I -- I'm thinking that maybe some future meeting topic is -- is lawyer -- law offices have to locate farther than 300 feet from a school, because, you know, litigation is not the answer to everything. The lawsuit. So, we might have to take a look at that in the future. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Duly noted. Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: If I remember correctly, Borton Lakey took over a book store with a coffee shop, so we do need to watch out for those attorneys. Simison: With that do I have a -- we don't need to vacate Item 8, do we? Okay. We don't need to vacate. Okay. Then do I have a motion to adjourn? Hoaglun: So moved that we adjourn. Simison: Motion to adjourn. All in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it. We are adjourned. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:38 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) 7 11 2023 MAYOR ROBERT E. SIMISON DATE APPROVED ATTEST: CHRIS JOHNSON - CITY CLERK