HomeMy WebLinkAbout2001 06-11
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CITY OF MERIDIAN
CITY COUNCIL STRA TEGle PLANNING SESSION / WORKSHOP
AGENDA ITEM FOR DISCUSSION
Monday, June 11, 2001, at 6:00 P.M.
City Council Chambers
Roll Call: _X_ Tammy deWeerd _X_ Cherie McCandless
_0_ Ron Anderson _X_ Keith Bird
_X_Mayor Robert Corrie
Issue #1
Discussion of General Development of the Northern Porlion of the
Area of Impact with Concerned Developers and Property Owners
Meridian City Council Workshop Agenda - June 11. 2001
Page1of1
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Meridian City Council Special Workshop
June 11. 2001
The special workshop of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:00
P~M_ on Monday June 11,2001 by Mayor Robert D. Corrie.
Members Present: Robert Corrie, Keith Bird, Cherrie McCandless, and Tammy
de Weerd.
Members Absent: Ron Anderson.
Others Present: Bill Nichols, Will Berg, David Turnball, Justin Martin, Greg
Johnson, Ramon Yorgenson, Becky Bowcutt, Brian McColl, Frank Varialle and
Elaine Clegg.
Corrie: This is a special workshop on Monday June 11, 2001 at 6:00. The
Meridian City Council will be discussing strategic planning for the City of
Meridian. At this point, I'll open the meeting. Let the record show that all the
Council people are present except Ron Anderson. David Turnball called me and
said he would like to discuss a few things with the developers up in the north
area of our area of impact before the meeting on the 18th to kind of get you a little
background~ I said that would be fine~ I appreciate the Council coming out
(inaud ible ).
Turnball: Thank you. We really appreciate this opportunity because it's often hard
to have a real exchange of ideas and opinions (inaudible) public hearing type of
format~ The rules are so rigid. I just want to thank the Council for meeting with us.
The genesis of this meeting goes back about a month. (inaudible) We were
called to a meeting, Ron and I were called to a meeting where Mayor Corrie,
Commissioner Simmons, Commissioner (inaudible), and Clare Bowman
attended. It was the same type of a format. Everybody wanted to get together
and discuss what's going on out in this area because it seems like everybody's
kind of afraid of the unknown. What might be happening out there. So, we
wanted to get everybody together and discuss the issues and common concern
to (inaudible). That meeting was a precursor to another meeting that they're
going to have following up at the end of May. (inaudible) As we discussed it, I
can't remember, one of the members of the different agencies suggested that
maybe we get the developers that we know (inaudible) Meridian area together
and see if we could come up with some kind of a game plan or some ideas about
how we can address the issues and the concerns of the city and ACHD and
(inaudible)~ We talked about ACHD issues, Meridian City issues. We felt it was
probably in everybody's best interest, instead of getting together in this larger
format thatJs going to happen on June 18th and going into that cold turkey, if we
had the opportunity to sit down with the Meridian City Council and the Mayor and
have the same type of a format.. Where we can talk about your concerns. Talk
about ours and see (inaudible)~ Ramon and I were asked to kind of spearhead
that on in the developerls side of the table. That's why I called Mayor Corrie and
Meridian City Council Special WOrKShop
June 11t 2001
Page 2
asked if there would be some opportunity to do that. That's why we're here today.
We're assuming that your issues are going to (inaudible) fire and police
protection, parks and probably land use issues~ It was discussed in that May 15th
meeting (inaudible)
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: This is really ground zero for the Treasure Valley now~ There's some
great opportunities out there because you have some larger contiguous parcels
that you can really do some nice planning on instead of having 5 acres here and
20 acres there and trying to mix different developers together. This is really a
prime opportunity9 (inaudible) I hope you take advantage of it (inaudible).
(inaud ible ).
Corrie: Okay.. Do you have any specific concerns as far as developers are
concerned that you have that hasn't been answered by our Council within the
meetings that we've had? Primarily the sewering and watering and the trunklines
and where they're going in? Being contiguous annexation as we go rather than
having spot areas being built and having their own water and sewer systems and
all that~ That's one of the things that I believe that the Council is not for.
(inaudible) We just thought that with this meeting with the Ada County Highway
District, ACHD, they have concerns with roads~ The county has concerns with
development and with their watering and sewering outside of (inaudible). We
have a time table planned of all our sewers and (inaudible)~ Primarily that's just, -
- you and I were talking to make sure that developers realize that what we're
trying to do is, we've got a plan to work with the area of impact and the County
Commissioners and to put that into place within that 10 year period. Sewer plants
and everything else and that. So, that's where the Council is coming from. You
can jump in here anytime you want, Council. What we donJt want to see is just,
(inaudible)
(inaudible discussion)
Corrie: (inaudible) Then of course at the meeting youJre going to have the
people from the smart growth there as well having things that they want to see
done. Primarily, I guess what we're asking for you people is, with us is the fact
that we have a plan we want to follow as much as possible. There's certain areas
that Ada County has given us the area of impact with a 10 year period we will
sewer all this~ We want to do everything in a contiguous fashion. (inaudible). I
guess with that, what kind of questions would you have --?
Turnball: Obviously, development (inaudible) service and you're talking about 3
major trunklines in that area. The one that you have probably on your front
burner is the (inaudible). I think there is a fair amount of confusion or frustration
or misunderstanding about what the status of that is~ I don't go to all of your
meetings obviously but I've been to some where schedules have been talked
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Meridian City Council Special Wcin<shop
June 11, 2001
Page 3
about and those dates have come and gone. I think, we'd like to have an
understanding about whether (inaudible) obviously a major part of that.
Varialle: We have some questions and concerns we'd like to bring up (inaudible).
(inaudible) a brief update on that. (inaudible) easement documents for
(inaudible). I believe then that the city (inaudible) public works has shown
(inaudible)~ Construction should start (inaudible).
Bird: (inaudible) if we don't have any more hold ups like we've had for the last
year. And getting easements.
(inaudible discussion)
Johnson: Is that just on the first phase though?
Bird: No, that would start on the complete. That would be on the complete White.
Johnson: Does that take it from Ten Mile to Linder?
Bird: No.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: It takes it from Ten Mile to Locust Grove. Locust Grove is where it will wind
up. They are supposed to be getting the easements done right now.
Johnson: My question was, the easements~ That includes all the easements from
Ten Mile to the east side of your property?
Varialle: Right.
Johnson: So, that easements in place. It's a matter of-
Bird: NO, I don't think it's in place yet.
(inaudible discussion)
Varialle: I just received it. My attorney has it. Part of that ground is (inaudible)
option so weJve got to work with that landowner. (inaudible) structuring the
easement language to allow continued farming. (inaudible) talked with Brad
today about that. He doesn't see a problem.
Johnson: So, did you say that your understanding is it's going to start in October?
Varialle: that's when they expect to have the engineering complete.
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Meridian City Council Special WOJKshop
June 11 t 2001
Page 4
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Bird: The engineering complete and it go out for bid and as I understand it that
would be the complete trunkline over to Locust Grove. We've got to get the
easements and stuff like that. The Council, a couple weeks ago, pretty well
instructed the public works from now on, we're not going to be held by
easements.. We're going to have to start however we have to do it.
Condemnation, werve never done this before, never had any problems but we've
been held up big time off the white trunk by right-af-way easements. No more, it's
not going to happen anymore. We're going to forge ahead and follow where we
can. If we have to do like Nampa, go down the road and put a lift station in.
Varialle: Is that a consideration, of running it down McMillan Road and serving
both of those miles from the same trunk?
Bird: I don't think it is. No, it isn't. You've got 2 different drains there.
Varialle: You'd have to have a couple pump systems.
Bird: Pumps are very expensive and very high maintenance.
Varialle: Long term.
Bird: Yes, they are. We hope to get away with (inaudible).
Varialle: Most (inaudible) is gravity, is that correct?
Bird: Yeah. This will all flow gravity if we can stay with the right deaL It has all
been, -- 3 years ago JUS come in and did an extensive survey for us.. Sewering
out the rest of our impact area. The only lift station I can recall on that} is the big
one there at Ten Mile and Ustick for the Black Cat.
Varialle: Black Cat and Ustick?
Bird: Yeah. Black Cat and Ustick.
Varialle: And then the one at McDermott?
Johnson: For the Black Cat Trunk to pump back to the sewer treatment plant?
Bird: Yeah.. There will probably be one more over; it won't be the same size
though, over at McDermott.
Johnson: Do you see in the properties you've got to go through, do you expect
any that youJre going to have to condemn?
Bird: I don't think so. I'd have to go back and look at the map that we've got but I
don't think SO~ I don't know what the hold up (inaudible)~
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Meridian City Council Special Workshop
June 11,2001
Page 5
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Johnson: So, completion time, I think when we discussed it in a meeting, Gary
was talking about a 9 month construction period?
Unidentified: Which one are you talking about, the White?
Johnson: White trunk.
Unidentified: I don't think so.
Bird: I don't think so.
Unidentified: They'll lose their fanny if it they take that long.
Bird: I was going to say if they take that long that contractor is -
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: It will be finished (inaudible). I think you're right.
Unidentified: April of 2002?
Varia lie: Do you have all of the easements now?
(inaudible discussion)
Varialle: We're still not going to be able to start until such time as you have all of
those? (inaudible)
De Weerd: The engineering has started.
Bird: Yeah. The engineering has started.
Varialle: The engineering has started?
Bird: Yeah~ I don't see any problems. You know there's some things, a big
development ready to go through. I notice that after it leaves your place, there's a
couple of places it's got to go through. Then it comes back up by our park. Goes
across the street, goes down through there and then wetre basically there.
(inaudible discussion)
Clegg: I'm Elaine Clegg from (inaudible). I want to apologize for being late.
(inaudible)
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Meridian City Council Special Wor~hop
June 11 f 2001
Page 6
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Martin: I'm Justin Martin. (inaudible) So the white trunk is the one that the City's
been concentrating heavily on? I know you have some concerns Frank about not
having (inaudible).
Varialle: The only questions I have is even after they have the start of the
trunkline. After that takes place would they want to wait until all the trunkline is in
before they'll allow applications to go forward? Or is there some way we can
have applications at least go through the paperwork and the bureaucratic
process and maybe not start construction. If II probably take 6 or so months to
plow a plat or to process a plat before they can start construction.
Bird: Once we've got the final engineering and got the construction bidding, in the
process. I donJt know why applications couldn't go forward at that time because
like you said it takes a while to get the applications through and everything like
that. I donJt see any reason why it can't. Plus the people that are developing out
there is going to have an idea where the trunkline is coming through anyway. Our
original plan 3years ago, once the White's done, immediately do the north, get it
going.
Unidentified: We happen to have a small parcel. It's an aD-acre parcel
(inaudible). Doc Howard's parcel. Of course everyone hopes that that would have
had sewer to it last fall.
Bird: Yes~
Unidentified: That was the intended -
Bird: That was the original plan.
Unidentified: -- of course we've had things that didn't allow that to happen and
made it so it couldn't happen. We went ahead and bought it on that basis. A year
later, next October it costs us 200,000 just in interest. If it takes another 6
months, that's another 1 00,000. Ours is a small parcel compared to some of
them. My point being, I'm not whining about it, but if we could start the process of
having a plat approved ahead of time. But you can't start construction, at least
we could start the paperwork process and you wouldn't have a great big jam of
plat applications right at the last minute just as soon as the trunk goes in. It would
allow a more orderly process for the paperwork and the Planning and Zoning and
the City Council and everyone.
Bird: You're contiguous to the city.
Unidentified: We aren't at this point. We have to be (inaudible) Keven Howell's
project to make us contiguous. That's our, their east of us. East and south of us,
we're west of them. (inaudible)
Meridian City Council Special WOrKshop
June 111 2001
Page 7
Bird: You've got Dr. Howard's place?
Unidentified: Yes. Itts unfortunate. He had a very nice home there that had to
burn. He still has a home.
Unidentified: That house burnt?
Bird: Oh, yeah big time. Right in the middle.
Unidentified: It's been several months now.
Unidentified: Did you set that fire too? We were just talking about it
(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: But, he can't get a building permit to go in and do anything because
he canJt (inaudible) a subdivision. It's less than 5 acres. So, he's held up which
(inaudible). It makes it difficult for him too.
Bird: The problem that I see for you guys and you know I hope you can
(inaudible). You guys (inaudible) unless you've just got an option on it~
(inaudible). We understand that but we hope that we can work out a timetable*
We've asked public works to come up with a timetable and live by it which
(inaudible). The problem is if the county starts allowing water systems, water tank
or sewer systems out there, then ifs a real problem. It's a real mess to be flat
truthful with you. We know that that (inaudible) along Chinden Boulevard down to
Cherry Lane is a very fast growing area that would boom a lot faster if we had
our sewer trunks in. We don't happen to have it in. We hope we don't get held up
as long on anymore of them than what we did this time regardless of what the
problem is. We just ask for your patience to work with us and not against us.
We'll try to work and grow out there in a feasible manner to grow from the inside
of the city out instead of jumping around like the Mayor said and having a bunch
of (inaudible) in our impact area that don't do us any good. It don't do us any
good to have a whole bunch of water and sewer systems out there* We've got
one south of us that we're going to inherit if we ever take them in the city. That
isn't a really, I don't know how they get by with all their testing. I don't think they
do.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: That's the thing I fear. We get a bunch of off-shoot deals out there. Then it
don't benefit the city, don't benefit the county and it certainly don't benefit you
guys.
Unidentified: (inaudible) applications proceed based on using the city sewer
system, especially like the white trunk because it's supposedly imminent. If you
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Meridian City Council Special Worr<shop
June 11t 2001
Page B
wait until the sewer lines are in or even until they start construction. There's
another 6 months after that before anything can happen. Plus, you're going to get
crushed.
Bird: Personally, as a CouncilPerson I have no problem with that. We have this
stipulation that we don't start building, no occupancy until you're in the city
because I'm selfish. I want the building permits and I want all that in our city not
to the county. I have no problem with that. I don't know if we can legally do it.
This guy right here can tell us.
Unidentified: Other cities do it.
Bird: I know other cities do it but that's their (inaudible)
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: Let me ask a question then.. Are you saying then as developers you're
willing to accept as a condition of final plat approval that the sewer (inaudible)?
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: What happens if we have a plan that calls for the construction of a
sewer trunk to a parcel and we have a timetable? So, you're planning your stuff
based upon some sort of margin of error with regard to the timing. What happens
when we miss the timetable?
Unidentified: We already missed it.
(inaudible discussion)
Yorgenson: It's no worse than what we have. It just makes it better because you
don't have another 6 months on the tail end.
Nichols: Mr~ Yorgenson, with all due respect though. We don't have a
development agreement with you. (inaudible) not made and application or some
of the things that you need to do in connection with the development(inaudible)..
My concern is I don't want us to get sued because we don't have something
there when we thought we'd have it there.
Yorgenson: That has to be one of the conditions of the approval. We have made
application but it won't go anywhere because we're not contiguous with the city.
Just make it as a condition~ That's one of the conditions~ We always have a litany
of conditions. That's just one of the conditions.
Nichols: So, what you're saying is you're willing to waive-
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Meridian Cjty Council Special WorKshop
June 11, 2001
Page 9
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(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: We understand that the city can have problems doing those things
too~ OUf timetables don't always work the way we would like them to either. But,
we'll save a year by starting to process this stuff now as opposed to waiting until
the day that that's built. Then everybody in the world tries to process all at once.
Even now, it takes a year.
(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: Otherwise it's like plugging up the Boise River with a beaver dam
and then all of a sudden it breaks lose (inaudible).
Bird: That does sound feasible. As long as like Mr. Nichols said that we don't
commit to a timetable and then have something go wrong and can't make it and
come back and get ourselves sued and he's the one that has to defend us.
Unidentified: I think one thing that we would like from our end is a commitment
and you've already mentioned that if the city gets in a spot where it has to
condemn, you're willing to go ahead and proceed. If it takes an extra 9 months,
we understand that. But, if it just sits and doesn't progress. that gets very
expensive.
Bird: Yes, it does~ To be truthful with you, we've let this white take us to 9 months
by not doing something~
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: (inaudible) but as I understand, we've always tried to work cooperatively
with everyone. (inaudible) trying to make (inaudible). In the acquisition of these
easements (inaudible). (inaudible) where it can go without screwing up the ability
to sell it to somebody to develop it~ (inaudible)~ Where the white trunk was going,
the city was (inaudible) and get the stuff in as opposed to having the
development community sort of drive where these things go (inaudible)
downstream by the sewer plant (inaudible). That's why we run into this problem,
is because it's sort of a maturing process. Things aren't like they use to be. We
know how to condemn property (inaudible). Nampa's done it before (inaudible)
but done it for other things. We're ready to go but up until recently the CityJs
never had to even look at that option.
Turnball: I think one of the things that you'll run into a little bit more now is people
that not only don't want to develop their property but they don't want anybody
else to develop theirs. They can prevent it by not giving an easement. (inaudible)
That's why the city has to be (inaUdible) condemnation.
Nichols: The other thing I think is a part of that is (inaudible).
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Meridian City Council Special Wort<shop
June 11 t 2001
Page 10
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: That helps everybody~
Nichols: But you can't build it from one end to the other without the piece in
between.
Bird: Mr~ Nichols' right, it's just something we've always had good luck you know.
Knowing you guys that have been developing around here, you know, you give
us easements and stuff to get through your property. It isn't that way anymore. I
think the south slough extension shows that. (inaudible).
Turnball: Yeah. There's 2 more trunklines and we've talked with the Mayor a little
bit about it in that one meeting about where those are in the process. (inaudible)
years now about the Black Cat Trunk -
Bird: That's right.
Turnball: Frank is involved in that. Basically that area that goes north on the
Black Cat Trunk is primarily (inaudible) our property and the (inaudible). We all
got together and came up with a plan to get that trunk built. We've corresponded
with you on that~ I think it's in your court now. As we talked to the Mayor here last
month, he indicated that he had a plan for the treatment plant expansion and
talked about how your enterprise funds were (inaudible). Make a comment that
there's developers on the north trunk and the Black Cat Trunk that are willing to
go in to get those trunklines built. I think we can do it almost entirely through our
own property or through right-af-ways where maybe very few easements
required. If there is an odd easement that's required, we would work to get that. If
we weren't able to acquire itt we would ask the city to step in (inaudible).
Unidentified: On the north slough trunk, we wouldn't have a problem at least
halfway through between Meridian Road and Locust Grove. From Ten Mile to
halfway to Locust Grove, the easements are not a problem.
Bird: I don't think, knowing some of the property owners out there, talking to them
there wouldn't be any problem with running it right through the edge of where it
goes.
Unidentified: Could go over to locust Grove.
Bird: Yeah. I don't think so.
De Weerd: I think what (inaudible) is the planning issue. It's the planning issue of
the trunklines. It's the planning issue of roads, which will be addressed, on the
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Meridian City Council Special Wofkshop
June 11, 2001
Page 11
18th9 It's a planning issue of what are we expecting? What is this big (inaudible)
thousand-lot acreage or thousand lot developments and all of that.
Unidentified: All at one time.
De Weerd: It would just be a lot easier if everyone in this room got together and
said this is whafs planned for this area at full build out. This is how the sewer's
going to have to run. We're still understanding the city wants to grow from the
outside out so properties will have to be contiguous but this is our plan. Then
everyone sees how they can make it work~ I hear, now we have easements for
the beginning of the white and now we have some easements that we thought
we had but we may not have now. So, if everyone could just get in the same
room and plan what this is going to look at, how we're going to service. Where
the fire stations need to be~ Where the parks need to be. How the trunkline's
going to be put in. What is the solution on roads? It just seems like it's going to
be an easier process to say yeah well we're contiguous in these areas but
because they've all worked together. They've all planned it out and theytll build
before us because they can't their acts together. At least everyone knows. The
school districts know where they're going to have be placing the bond authorities
to build schools and all of that. It's more than just roads. It has a lot to do with
schools and public safety and what are the essential services to have in a
community? I just think if everyone got together and really said this is our vision
for it. I mean, like I said we have a lot of bare ground out there. What a great
opportunity to plan the community~ It looks like everyone here has something at
stake and it's the stakeholders that can make things happen. You developers
know that because you've been building our trunklines for years. If we could all
just come together, make a good smart plan that we can live by and we all know
what we're dealing with. It seems like, and it's all fair and consistent with
everyone~ It's not the first one in gets the best deal because they're impacting
everyone else but they don't have to pay the way. You know, if you can all get
together and make a plan and have everyone agree with it, the easements and
everything, it seems like it would make the whole process a lot easier.
Turnball: Right. And, thatJs exactly what we're trying to do here. It's interesting
where you get into a situation (inaudible) roads and with parks where you have
impact fees. Those impact fees are suppose to kind of level the playing field like
we're talking about here. But, we can all work together and plan where the parks
need to be and how things get planned (inaudible). (inaudible) from the Highway
District's side looking at it saying we can't afford to acquire the right-af-way and
build the roads both. Obviously, and we've done some analysis on that) if you
take what a section of real estate would generate in impact fees, it more than
pays for itself. The problem is they don't get that up front. It's over time. So, she
made the suggestion that we give the right-af-way to you guys up front and as
impact fees are collected, get reimbursed. That kind of levels the playing field
and makes it fair for everybody. It solves ACHDJs cash flow crunch problem.
(inaudible) That's what they're trying to do, is come up with some solutions that
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Meridian City CounciJ Special Woh\".;r1op
June 11, 2001
Page 12
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can solve their problem. We're trying to do that. We have to do it as we
(inaudible) ACHD~ Those are really the 2 major players. Ada County is kind of
sitting on the sidelines and refereeing I guessa Compass is involved in the
planning aspect because their projects, you can always take a look at those and
say --. Greg knows where the development's going to happen and Ramon
knows. Compass takes a broad-brush approach (inaudible)
De Weerd: I think we're kind of dealing with some issues here. You know if you
have community design involved in this and everyone knew what each other
were doing, we wouldn't have that difficulty. We see nothing but R-4 8,000 by
100 square foot lots and we're so sick of it, I could just puke up there.
Turnball: We are too.
De Weerd: Butt you know, if I made of it, this is going to be R~4 80 by 100 square
foot lot but next to it's going to be R-8 and here's multi family and here's some
commercial. If you could see a big picture, it would be easier to even look at your
applications and see how it fit in the picture. With such large applications you
have the ability to maybe work with (inaudible).
Johnson: Tammy, we're a little slow to react to things but the reason you see R-4
(inaudible) is that is the only thing (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
Johnson: I tried for 3 years to get Highland's Ranch approved because of mixed
use, Becky worked on it for ages (inaudible). Because of the commission
structure at that time, they didn't like it. They didn't want to look at that type of
thing. Now that's changed. All you guys are new and that's (inaudible). We're like
appraisers, we're driving in the rearview mirror looking at what's been approved
in the past thinking that that's all we can get through. It's going to take us a while
to shift to that. But, we need to know that feedback as soon as it comes so we
know how to react.
De Weerd: I think our new ordinance for planned developments is going to really
make a big statement on what we want to see.
Johnson: But, we still haven't worked through all the --. We haven't worked
through the camp plan yet.
Bowcutt: That's the other issue I was thinking about. You know we talk about the
sewer issue, Pete and I know that's an important topic, but nobody has brought
up the Comprehensive Plan. To be honestt I know members of your staff have a
lack of enthusiasm pursuing this growth to the north because we have a plan in
place. You know, you've got Mr. Yorgenson saying I want to bring mine in.
Youfve got your staff on the other hand saying, hey, hold them out until we get
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Meridian City Council Special Wmshop
June 11, 2001
Page 13
some guidelines, until we get an overall game plan here. We're almost caught in
limbo but that's just as important as it is that sewer line.
Turnball: The draft plan, as it sits now is going to be exactly the opposite of
(i naud ible ).
Bird: That's right.
Turnball: It's basically low density residential. As I told the Mayor in our meeting,
(inaudible) look at that whole north area and designate it a mixed-use
development area with, I don)t know if you do it through the planning and
development process..
Bird: That's not the only place, David. We've got some good commercial corners
desig nated residential ~
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: When you look at traffic problems, it helps a lot if some people in the
community can live close to where they work.
De Weerd: Right.
Bird: That's right.
Turnball: If you get those work bases where they can walk to work, ride to work -
De Weerd: And, that new camp plan is suppose to accomplish that.
Corrie: That's what we'd like to see.
Turnball: (inaudible) currently is there, gets less density as you get out from the
city center. It's the standard old thing that we always use, that downtown is the
center of the earth and as you get out from there, you get less and less.
(inaudible) You take a look at your city. You're bound basically on the south by
the interstate, on the north by Chinden, on the east by Eagle Road and
presumably a new Ten Mile Road connection. You've got some major
transportation hubs around your city, which is absolutely great. That's wonderful.
We need to take advantage of them. Five years ago if I came into this city, the
mentality was, we don't want any small lots, small houses, small anything~ We
were just pushed and pushed and pushed to R-4. In fact the city looked
(inaudible) lovingly at Eagle City as their example. I'll tell you what, that's the
prototype for urban (inaudible). That is not going to solve this valley's problems if
we fall into that kind of mode. I am as big a proponent as anybody about mixed-
use development, about having a variety of housing types so that you don't have
Meridian City Council Special Wort\Shop
June 11, 2001
Page 14
you know an enclave with big monster houses with only rich people~ Then
enclaves with (inaudible). You know, mixing it up -
(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: (inaudible) Bristol Heights. Bristol Heights has a range from -
Turnball: 5,000 square foot lots to 12,000 square foot lots~ Cheaper homes,
smaller homes, not cheap homes. (inaudible) there aren't any cheap homes
(inaudible)~ $150,000 homes to $300,000 plus homes. Now, believe me you can
go much higher than that with even larger but there's a real mix. Small homes,
you have parks. You have walking trails. We need commercial. That's one thing
we don't have. We want to have commercial on our property.
Unidentified: We need pockets like Dave developed there with Boise Research.
(inaudible discussion)
De Weerd:
have?
Have you guys been looking at the same camp plan proposal I
Bird: I don't think they have.
(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: I've got a brand new camp plan actually~ It came out this week.
McCandless: It just came out.
(inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: I'm thinking wow, I'm really missing something here9
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: That north area has Chinden Boulevard as a major transportation
corridor! Ten Mile presumably on the west side. Tale advantage of it by getting
more density, more shopping and employment opportunities and things like that.
De Weerd: Maybe we should (inaudible) at this point.
Clegg: If you guys don't mind. Idaho Smart Growth has been involved with a big
project with a lot of partners in the Treasure Valley~ I've seen some of you
(inaudible). It's called Treasure Valley Futures. It includes a Treasure Valley
Partnership, which is the mayors, the county commissioners~ It includes
Compass, ACHD, ITD, the counties and as a result of that, weive come up with a
Meridian City Council Special Workshop
June 11 t 2001
Page 15
couple of things. One was (inaudible)~ Compass' projections. July 12th, we'll be
releasing the preliminary transportation model and really is going to be different
(inaudible) because it's not based on broad brush. Itrs based on trying to actually
predict where growth is going to occur. Another thing that we did is publish
what's called a toolkit of alternative choices. In that toolkit are 2 particular tools
that as I'm listening to this conversation I think would be certainly not be all, end
all but at least I think a start for solving some of these problems. One is a specific
area plan, which has been done a little bit by the City of Boise~ It's used widely in
a lot of places. California uses it as part of their Comprehensive Plan and
requirements~ Also a local circulation map which is something I don't think really
has ever been used in this valley. I know that ACHD doing a collector particularly
arterial circulation plan for north Meridian but they didn't consider any of the local
circulation. One of the things smart growth considers a (inaudible) is the local
connectivity and the ability then to walk to work or shopping or schools because
you've taken advantage of the proximity. A lot of times the way we - you guys
probably know this better than any of us, is that even though locations may be
proximate, there's no way to get from here to there because the connection
never got made~ I guess, the suggestion that I've been kind of playing around
with ACHD and the planning staff here in Meridian and the school district in the
county and ITD and now with you is that you all who have an interest do a
specific (inaudible). That would include all of the things that you've been talking
about~ I think we'd also get at Ramon's concern which is this long process
between application and when you actually get approved ~ If you have a specific
area plan that's adopted -
(:""":"" .
***End of Side One***
Clegg: -- doesn't have to be a special fee. It doesn't have to be a Conditional Use
as long as it meets all the requirements that have already been written into the
specific area plan and it really speeds up that process if you're willing to play by
the rules that everyone agreed to~ The circulation plan would do the same thing~
It would predetermine the connectivity so somebody can't come in later and say
well, we don't really want to connect to the other subdivision so weJre just going
to make this (inaudible). Then you don't get the path to the school or whatever.
It's something that would require some money~ You would have to hire a planner
and (inaudible) to work with you all to pull it all together. Hopefully somebody
who's had some experience. All of you probably are going to be spending money
on engineering and planning anyway. It might be something that can be worked
out collaboratively_ I don't know if those (inaudible) are available in the Public
Hearing realm~ To be honest with you, I've been kind of poking around with this
and (inaudible). I think there's probably an opportunity to do something on a
collaboratively basis that would include the developers and include all the public
agencies and include the citizen interest organizations like ours. A suggestion~
Unidentified: You'd be interested to know they would not let us build a street
connection between Hobble Creek and Boise Research Center.
(-
Meridian City Council Special WOtKshop
June 11 t 2001
Page 16
j"
t..":""" .
Clegg: I know. I actually found out about that afterward.
(inaudible discussion)
Unidentified: So, people when they go to the YMCA, they come out on Chinden
and whip right back around.
(inaudible discussion)
Clegg: So, it's a 10-minute wait to get onto Chinden at 8:00~ That's exactly the
thing that we'd like to see avoided. We did some quick numbers and you look at
that 12 square miles in north Meridian. You could have 55,000 people. That's the
second biggest city in the state of Idaho. That's not really all that dense
development.
Turnball: What kind of density were you --?
Clegg: I think it was only 4 and a half units per acre.
Turnball: With 4 units per acre, you have almost 30fOOO units.
Clegg: Okay. So, it was less than that. Trisha Nielson did those numbers for me
so and I couldn't remember them~ So, you could have the second biggest city in
Idaho in those 12 square miles. If it's not planned right it could be just a parking
lot most of the day.
Yorgenson: By the same token if there were to be 25 to 30)000 and you do it at
8}000 (inaudible)
Bird: 800 is what we're doing per year.
Yorgenson: You're talking 25 to 30 (inaudible).
Bird: You're not going to develop this over night.
Yorgenson: The thing is, you've got to plan it though~
(inaudible discussion)
Bird; That'll depend on how you sell.
Yorgenson: This is all going to happen this year so. this traffic congestion is
going to be there. If we open this up in a year all the roads are going to be
(inaudible). We're going to have to do some traffic but it's not going to happen
this year. It's not going to happen next year.
Meridian City Council Special Woi1<shop
June 11 J 2001
Page 17
Bird: But, you've still got to plan ahead for it Ramon.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: That's what Elaine is stating is we need to plan for it. I think you're going to
see Ustick is planned to be a 5-lane road. Chinden, I think those 2 roads are
definitely going to be commercial. We already know Eagle is.
Johnson: If we don't start working now as a support group though, to Chinden. If
Chinden doesn't get developed, it doesn't do any good to have all these other
roads so that you can get to Chinden and just stop. It's a state road and we need
to get that thing improved in the next 3 or 4 years so that when you come out. of
these side streets and even out of the current city as you move up north. That
needs to be a major north connection~ Maybe it even needs to be built on
frontage roads with limited access.
Bird: That's a good idea.
(inaudible discussion)
Johnson: I personally would support the frontage roads and we'll build our portion
(inaudible). Because it'll make the commercial land valuable and you can get up
an d down that corridor. If you have street lights out at that intersection, it isnJt
going to help a whole lot. It's kind of like Eagle. No matter how wide you make it,
you can only get so many cars on it.
Bird: I like that idea. I wish we would have thought about it on Eagle.
Corrie: Ramon is absolutely right. Seven, eight years I came in our thought was
downtown and then as it goes out to Chinden, (inaudible) R-4s and R-8s
(inaudible). You're right (inaudible). The times have changed now and we need
to put everybody together now. That's one of the reasons for the 18th meeting
but. (inaudible). I wanted the Council (inaudible) because they're the ones that
make those policy changes. I think if you look aheadJ think ahead, plan ahead
and like you're saying, side roads and commercial and plan for that if the Council
has the feeling that's what they want to do, that's fine.
Johnson: We really need a frontage road along the (inaudible) between Meridian
and Nampa on the north side of that freeway.
Bird: Absolutely.
Johnson: You know we accidentally have one with Overland Road on the south
side.
Meridian City Council Special WOrl\shop
June 111 2001
Page 18
(::
Bird: For a while.
Johnson: It's perfect. For a ways but that was an accidental deal but it works
perfectly.
Bird; Franklinls too far away to be a frontage road.
Johnson: Unfortunately we've got one subdivision that goes all the way to the
freeway there. Somewhere there's got to be a connection that you can get
through and go back all the way to Garrity and connect that. Put industrial out
there by the freeway so that we don't have to build these high walls for sound
barriers. Put industry there that loves advertising and loves the noise. (inaudible)
Turnball: We just need to continue this and understand the city's mindset. 8
years ago I think when you came in Bob, the city was going like it was a bedroom
community to Boise and all you were getting was the residential housing and no
commercial.
Bird: And we were.
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: I remember talking to (inaudible) saying Walt it will come but you just
don't have the (inaudible). Now you're going to get 2 major business centers out
on Overland and Eagle. You've already got a huge hospital in the works. You1re
getting all those commercial opportunities that you longed for 8 years ago
because you have the residential.. The commercial doesn't come until the
residential is there" This commercial out in this north area won't come until
there's more residential in place~ As developers, we're market driven and we
cannot subsidize things. It has to make market sense to make it work~ But, we
need to preserve those commercial areas so that when they are viable they get
bu ilt.
Bird: They pay the taxes.
Yorgenson: I don't know how many of us have seen the latest land use map but it
shows 2 miles of Chinden frontage a quarter mile deep. That's half-acre lots and
residential lots, no commercial.
Bird: On our side?
Yorgenson: 2 miles long. From Ten Mile down to Linder and then down to
Meridian. Half acre and larger lots and a quarter mile deep.
(inaudible discussion)
C
Meridian City Council Special Woikshop
June 11, 2001
Page 19
(r "
Yorgenson: It came from Spur Wing. It came from the Eagle side is what I would
thi n k.
(lengthy inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: Yeah, but not all because there is a lot of mixed use (inaudible). That
mixed use really allows for some creativity. If you don't take advantage of it
(inaudible ).
Bowcutt: My only concern about - Well, there's a lot of things that in theory they
sound really good. In a perfect world, yes. Everybody would walk to workw
Everybody would walk to shopw But we don't live in a perfect world. I guess some
of the comments that I've heard is you know, taking out some of the new
urbanism which (inaudible). But I'm sorry every time (inaudible) you don't want to
look like the north end of Boise. There are groups out there that that's exactly
what they (inaudible)~
(inaudible discussion)
Bowcutt: I know that. I said some of the concepts of new urbanism work well. But
I guess you know we need, when you're talking about creativity and diversity I
hope that there's a flexibility there so that we don't have subdivisions that all look
alikew I think that's one of the criticisms that Keith and you had recently is that a
lot of subdivisions just look like every other one. Do something different and
unique.
Yorgenson: I only want to make one more comment about the planning and
development process and versus R-4 development. The other reason why
everybody is gravitating towards R-4 is because, and Eagle does this especially,
(inaudible)~ You go through a planned unit development in Eagle you're just
asking to get picked apart by buzzards. You're just like this dead carcass lying in
the middle of the street for 2 years, 3 years getting picked apart.
(inaudible discussion)
Yorgenson: A PUD needs to be as easy of a process as a subdivision.
Bird: That's right.
Yorgenson: You need to-
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: PUD should be easier to run through~ It's a planned development.
(.... ..
Meridian City Council Special WDrkshop
June 11t 2001
Page 20
Turnball: I remember your comment of you guys have to use this. If the process
is reasonable to use, we will use it.. But it has to be somewhat reasonable. The
difference is like Ramon (inaudible).
Unidentified: I remember sitting in one of Ramon's hearing out in Eagle, on this
project he got approved in six months. At the same time he's been going through
this other one for 3 years. The city council kind of lamented that well this is just a
subdivision application so our hands are tied. If it were a PUD project we could
require this and that and tie you up for 3 years. That's the wrong mentality.
Bird: That iS1
Johnson: Because you're trying to make something really nice and a little bit
different and have some mixed involvementw Different size lots and different
things in it and they just throttle you.
Bowcutt: That's what he tried to do. (inaudible)
(inaudible discussion)
Bowcutt: Yeah~ We were trying to provide different lot sizes and even our smaller
lots were sti II 12 or 15, 000 sq ua re foot lots. (i n aud ible) . You would th in k that if
(inaudible)
De Weerd: Why don't you try that in Meridian?
Bird: Yeah.
De Weerd: We'd be drooling. I just think from the sounds of everything that
maybe what Elaine recommended, to get together a plan like that would not only
expedite the process from that end. I've never heard of it so I don't know what-
Johnson: Are you suggesting in addition to the Comprehensive Plant (inaudible)
make a Comprehensive Plan for just the north side?
Clegg: That's exactly what it is. It's an overlay of the Comprehensive Plan.
Bird: I also think when we have the Comprehensive Plan. Now, how many of you
guys in here went to the Comprehensive Plan meetings?
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Let's make sure that we get to the Public Hearings. In fact coming to the
Public Hearings, maybe we can get ahead of some of the problems we foresee
because are the ones out there doing the plannings. We're not~ I've never put in
a subdivision in my life. None of us have.
Meridian City Council Special Woi1<shop
June 11,2001
Page 21
Bowcutt: That's June 28th, right?
Unidentified: Is that the Planning and Zoning on June 28th?
Bird: Thafs Planning and Zoning.
De Weerd: There's something on the 21 st.
Bird: The 21st is the, Will what is the 21st?
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: when is the Public Hearing?
Berg: The 28th at the Meridian high school auditorium.
Bowcutt: What time is that Will?
Berg: 6:30.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: You know you guys can help us out by doing that. Then we don't have the
problems down the road maybe because we've got all the bugs that we can
ironed out.
Johnson: I'm going to provide some - I wonJt be able to be at the 28th meeting
because I'll be at the regional soccer tournament but I'm going to provide some
written input and have one of my representatives come and suggest that that
north area be overlaid with a mixed, some kind of mixed use development
designation instead of the R --~
De Weerd: Maybe you and Elaine can talk about it
Corrie: Well, this is the general conception that Compass (inaudible)~ They
came into (inaudible). Thatfs why again, I wanteq Council to hear what your plans
are (inaudible). Then working together. As you well know, I don't make the
decisions around here (inaudible). I agree with them it needs to be planned
(inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
Yorgenson: But if it takes you 5 times as long, there's not going to be a whole lot
of people want to do it.
i
t
Meridian City Council Special W6i1<shop
June 11 t 2001
Page 22
(inaudible discussion)
Corrie: They're going to do exactly like what we don't want to happen.
Bird: We deserve to get you guys timetables on our part. What we think we can
get. Like Mr~ Nichols said, there are things that might hold us up down the road.
We need to have some timetables lined out. Gary is getting some timetables and
stuff like that lined out for the sewer.
Johnson: Back to Ramon's original question here~ Is Council prepared to accept
applications on those land contiguous to the city that will be served by the white
trunk?
Bird: This one Councilman is as long as it's legal. That's up to Bill. As long as we
dontt get ourselves in trouble, I'm for it.
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: The only problem I have with the thing is that, Council can make
general policy (inaudible). Typically (inaudible). They have not approved
developments where the sewer was not (inaudible). You're asking them to make
a policy change. I would rather that they think about it and look at it (inaudible).
De Weerd: Butf that was just one issue too.
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: I guess what 11m saying is while I understand Mr. Johnson)s (inaudible).
He wants to get you pinned down (inaudible).
Johnson: WeJre talking about a schedule and yeah we would like to make some
(inaudible)
Nichols: I understand that.
Johnson: Mr. Bird is asking us not to go to the county and not to do separate
sewer systems and that. I'm one that's willing to listen to that if we know what the
time frame is.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: As far as I know it is. The Mayor and the Council's idea~ Just to bang right
on up and go through~ The north Black Cat which they've referred to. I think
they're looking right now on what kind of a lift station (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
(,... .....
Meridian City Council Special Workshop
June 11 J 2001
Page 23
t..... .
\"." .. .: . .
Bird: I would hope so.
Unidentified: (inaudible)
Bird: (inaudjble)~ You wouJdnJt have to. No way -
(inaudible discussion)
Johnson: (inaudible). I understand that my application we didn't have an
annexation route~ The reason we didn't have that annexation route is because
the applications on the white trunk weren't allowed to process. Otherwise we
would have had an annexation route. If Marty Goldsmith's property and my
property have a contiguous annexation route to the city, will you allow that
application to be submitted and that sewer trunk to be built?
Bird: Now, youtre getting into something else. You're getting some farther, Greg.
See I thought you were talking about stuff that was going to be sewered by the
white that we were going to have in.
Johnson: I was with Ramon's~
Bird: Yeah* With Ramon's deal.
Johnson: But you said that you would allotyv the application -
Bird: Application if you're contiguous but you're not contiguous because until we
annex them in the city, you're not contiguous. Now, we're talking about
something else.
Johnson: VVhen that happens though?
Bird: Yeah.
Johnson: And therets a contiguous route to the city will you allow us to proceed?
Corrie: Perhaps.
Nichols: Let me break in here. Still one of the issues is leapfrogging (inaudible).
You might have a piece of property thafs contiguous to the city. Maybe it's been
annexed in (inaudible). Maybe yours builds out quicker than Frank's or Marty's or
somebody's so you don't get (inaudible) We still have to send that police officer
clear out to Chinden and heJs got to go through a whole bllnch of rural stuff to get
there~ VVe still have those issues about providing those kinds of services out on
the edge of the area of impacta
(... .
Meridian City Council Special WoiKshop
June 11t 2001
Page 24
(
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: I don't know what Bill was talking about~ Leapfrog would be and you
wouldn't be doing it within the city because you're going to develop your city from
the in out as far as I'm concerned. I realize that some subdivision might get
started a little sooner that's on McMillan Road at Chinden instead of between
Ustick and~ Well, we've go that within the city limits right now.
(inaudible discussion)
Johnson: The area that Dave developed and Ramon developed in the city of
Boise, developed from Chinden down towards (inaudible). Th.at infrastructure
from a marketing standpoint I would much rather be out on Chinden because
they can get there and move especially if we can get Chinden built. That's why I
bought that ground.
Unidentified: I guess I get a little concerned when you talk about - I don't
disagree with some of the concept. But take a look at the map. You're not going
out to Columbia Road here like Boise city is. They're out to Columbia Road.
We're talking about a pretty packed area. There's probably one piece of ground
right now that has sewer in that north Meridian section and they won't sell
because they're the kind of people that just don't want to sell. If you)re talking
about that next 50 acres has to develop before you can go outside of that, you're
going to drive the prices of land through the roof. You're going to have all sorts of
pressures (inaudible) because the land is so expensive. The higher you drive up
the price of the land, the more pressure you're going to get from the city and
you're probably not going to get the lenience (inaudible)~ A bunch of landowners
(inaudible) figure out all they need to do is say I'm not going to let mine develop
because the next guy can't develop his and it just drives the price right through
the ceiling.
Bird: I don't think that's what I meant.
De Weerd: That might be the advantage to a plan.
Unidentified: I agree with that. I just wanted to - you know Lexington Hills, I had
the opportunity to buy 10 years ago, $3500 an acre. I didn't because it was way
out there. Bryce Peterson and his group bought it and they've got a really nice
project but at the time that way out there. Look at it now. (inaudible) and they
were able to do some (inaudible) the price wasn't sky high6 It's part of the
advantage of what we have in this north Meridian area right now~ We've got
larger parcels of contiguous property that we can get for a reasonable price~
(inaudible ).
Bowcutt: I think we've got an (inaudible) you know thereJs only just a few
developments in Boise where you had just this blank slate to create new parks
(.
Meridian City Council Special Wohtshop
June 11 f 2001
Page 25
and schools and transportation. With Eagle, Cloverdale, McMillan, Chinden area
there's one -
Johnson: (inaudible) a high school and a junior high school all in one area. Plus
Boise Research Center (inaudible) multi family. We've got single family ranging
from 100,000 to 4 or 500,000.
Bowcutt: Then they've got Columbia Village and then your Harris Ranch stuff.
You guys, I mean it's an opportunity most cities do.n't see.
Johnson: I might suggest too since you're talking about an overlay plan. In my
mind if you have an overlay plan in place and you then allow expansion to only
happen contiguously, you're going to hurt that plan because, one example is in
working with the school district. You know they've got school sites picked,
scattered out throughout the area~ You've got parks scattered out throughout the
area. The next elementary school just may not happen to be contiguous and they
need it but we can't get to it. The same thing with the park, we can't get to it
De Weerd: Greg, the nice thing about an overlay is it might, and you write it into
your policy or you're buying off on it that that might be allowed. That's what the
beauty is of coming to the table and seeing how some of the service issues are
going to be addressed and you know, it's not just water and sewer. It's police and
fire and schools and parks~ That's the beauty in everyone coming together and
seeing staffs comfort and the elected official's comfort. Safety services are
assured and you know everyone being a part of planning that area~ Then it may
not have to be that you plan it contiguously, as long as everyone's dedicated to
the plan and everyone knows what to expect.
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: Tammy, how do we do that and not take another 2 years?
De Weerd: I don't know~ I just said it.
Turnball: How does that process take place in a compressed time?
(inaudible discussion)
Clegg: It's a smaller area of land than the whole city so it shouldnJt take as long
to plan (inaudible)~ The resources are probably the biggest question~ If you can
find the resources to get professional planners to work on it.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Thafs right.
(
Meridian City Council Special WOrKShop
June 11~ 2001
Page 26
(
Johnson: IF the city really goes on board and said that maybe they would
(inaudible)_ Then the developers would be willing to do it. The difficulty that we
have now is (inaudible). That's all an incentive for developers to sit down with
other developers and with the city and to do an area plan (inaudible).
Turnball: Unless you can get this done in a reasonable time frame-
De Weerd: Unless you can. I mean, that's as far as I'm concerned, it's also in
your hands.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: ButJ we have to buy off on it.
(inaudible discussion)
Bowcutt: But, we need your support and obviously your input. I guess one thing
that bothers me is that we have different parties that are at different steps in the
process~ Some people haven't even put the pencil to the paper. Others are just
poised to submit~ Some of us are half way in the process.
Yorgenson: I'm on my 4th plan~
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: David, how long did it take you to do BRC?
Turnball: You mean build it out?
Bird: Yeah, from when you started.
Turnball: I started infrastructure in 89 and we're still going at it but it's mostly -
Bird: You've got to realize this, even though it's 12 square miles or whatever and
we could have 80,000 people out there one of these days. It's going to be 25 or
30 years before it's out.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: But, we need -
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: I was going to say I won't have to worry about it. That's why we need this
plan, David. I think Becky hitl or somebody hit it on the head that you guys are
(
Meridian City Council Special WcHkshop
June 11, 2001
Page 27
(
the players that we need to help and look with the help of the city also. Have a
plan and how long can you guys give us? You're asking us a deal~ I mean. How
long before you start pressuring Ada County? We know it's going to happen. We
know there's plans out there right now with United Water for sewer and water.
We know that.
Turnball: Who told you?
Bird: They did. You know, how long are you willing to not create a monster out
there, which I believe if we bring other water and sewers in it creates a monster?
Turnball: I believe that if we have the cooperation and the support of the city, we
can go to work. You know, I don't know if we can get everybody on exactly the
same page.
Bird: I understand that.
Turnball: I'm ready to go to work right now~ My only question is what are they
going to do with Ten Mile Road? (inaudible)
Bird: We have no control over that.
Clegg: That's why ITD should be part of it too.
Turnball: Well, they are going to supposedly going to be at the June 18th meeting~
I think we should sit down and get something going from the developers side. But
we need the commitment from the city whether itls a liaison person from the
Council plus staff~ We need somebody that is willing to be there and meet
frequently so it doesn't get bought down on monthly meetings and stretch out
over 2 years~ It almost needs to be a member of staff that's not so busy already
with the Comprehensive Plan.
Bird: That's right~
Turnball: You know what it's like to get reports and everything right now~ I mean,
say okay we're going to give this a priority and not have a staff person that has
the time to do that (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
Turnball: Just to load this onto Shari -
Bird: That isn't fair~
De Weerd: Weill and you have to have public works there.
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Meridian City Council Special Woi1<shop
June 11, 2001
Page 28
Bird: I was going to say, yeah -
Turnball: You've got to have a member, they're trying to process everything that's
going through right now too.
Corrie: It's and important project of this overlay and everything else. The county
and the city and ITD and ACHD, it probably would behoove us to, if we could
make the manpower and the time for those places to work with you. You tell us
what your timetable is. We can work that and go together and the Council can,
has given you a pretty good idea tonight what we would like to see. We're not
going to be doing it alone~ Neither are you. We work together, the overlay and
then you tell us okay, we can do this-As long as the Council and you have the
vision, it's going to be out there in 25 30 years and we do it now and set it up and
do it and plan for it. We'll be fine. It's just the. fact that we don't know where we're
going for sure. I mean, we're going heref we're going here~ We've got a sewer
over here. By working all together we can do it I think. If we hang together we're
fine. If we hang separately we'll all die.
De Weerd: We'll all hang together.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: I think the Mayor's 100 percent right I think that if we work together, we're
much - If we go in here and we get battling the developers, the city it outs Ada
County Planning Department in a bad spot. It puts the commissioners in a bad
spot because you guys are hounding them. We're hounding them. I think that we
can make it I understand from the private business point that you guys can't
afford to have your money sitting out there for 50 years. That you've got to turn
your money to make profit so you can do these. I hope we can work something
out where we can have this overlaying plan and get it in placeR You know the city
will work the best we can to help. We don't have this confusion and stuff that, the
in fighting that we've had up to this point with the county and us.
Yorgenson: Can I ask Elaine a couple of questions? One, about how long it
would take to do an overlay plan. If we said tonight, today okay let's find some
professional people to help us with the overlay. Is it conceivable that it could be
done in 6 months.
Clegg: I wish I could answer that question. I think it is but I honestly don't know. I
was just going to say, one of the other things that we can offer, at least to get this
started is that Deanna Sellser and Phil Errickson, a man by the name of Jim
Dica, have offered to come. Jim's going to come at his own expense and we've
got some money left in (inaudible) for Deanna and Phil because they all have
experience with these and are professional planners and can answer those kind
of questions better than I can~ They're willing to come and spend half a day with
Meridian City Council Special Woi'kshop
June 11 f 2001
Page 29
(: ..: .
a group and whoever, ACHD, whoever is interested and just go through all of that
kind of stuff. What would be involved. How long would it take? All of that.
Yorgenson: Do we have any idea what the cost would be to do an overlay zone?
Is it a $50,000 bill? Is it $150,000 bill?
Clegg: I'm thinking 150 or SO~ I wish I did know the answers to those things~
Yorgenson: In that realm?
Clegg: I can get the answers to all those questions. If you'll give me a list of the
questions, I can get answers for you on June 18th. So, time, money, anything
else?
Bird: How can they get this to you Elaine? Can you give us a number?
Clegg: Well, are you going to come on June 18th? How many of the people here
are going to be there?
(inaudible discussion)
Clegg: Okay~ I'll just bring it to that meeting.
Bird: David, you can keep that.
McColl: Mayor can we get (inaudible). (inaudible) set up a committee with the
city's cooperation. So, instead of having the developers all up in here coming up
with their plan and then bringing it back to the city and the city saying wait a
minute this is totally inconsistent with our revised camp plan. (inaudible) I think
the city has to (inaudible).
Turnball: Brian, I think that comes into having somebody from the planning staff,
public works staff, (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
Nichols: (inaudible) on the planning contacts that's fine. But, we've got to be
careful about those (inaudible) contacts. You know when they have a screw up
like Fosters Warehouse case where you get into enough specifics in working on
the plan as a CouncilPerson somehow or another when a project comes up, it
(inaudible) screwed UP4
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Yeah, but it gets into that. That's the problem. Every time you get talking it
comes into that~ Maybe the Mayor could serve on it. Would he get the same ....?
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Meridian City Council Special WOrKshop
June 11. 2001
Page 30
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(inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: Maybe that's another question Elaine that you can have answered
as well.
(inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: Because ACHD would have to be on it as well.
Turnball: At a minimum, as we progress the Council should be involved~ Like if
we get a month down the road, let's go through what we've come up with and
make sure we're going down the right road.
Bird: That's a different deal when we're all here~
Turnball: I don't have a problem with staff doing it as long as you're looking at it
as it goes and we're all kind of singing off the same page.
Johnson: We need to have this be a compact group though~ We can not-
TurnbalJ: if we get it too big, it's going -
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: If you do you'll get in trouble.
Nichols: Let me say one other thing and it goes back to Greg's question about
whafs the city's commitment (inaudible)~ One of the problems (inaudible) the
legislature just to try to (inaudible). To the extent that if you have any contacts
with any of the legislators, if we could just leave the annexation Jaw alone and not
foul it up by some of these things (inaudible)* Some of these things wouldn't be
an issue. Service outside the city limits~ You know (inaudible)
De Weerd: That's another question then for(inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: I'll put another pitch in (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: we did not do a very good job.
De Weerd: You don't make the same mistakes twice.
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Meridian City Council Special Wo.rkShop
June 11,2001
Page 31
(
Bird: And, all 5 of us can take the blame.
Unidentified: All we would have had to do is get Ramon to move his whole family
to Meridian and we'd get 14 votes.
(inaudible discussion)
Yorgenson: They're not all married yet.
Martin: I have a comment that somewhat relates. If wefre going to do an overlay
in this area which includes north and south of McMillan Road. It seems that the
new comp plan with the urban service-planning boundary here, your planning
area~ The way it's proposed, Meridian seems like it's going to cut the north side
out for some undetermined amount of time.
Turnball: Is that still in there?
Martin: It is and if it goes into effect, one of their first actions is to put into place, I
think, and any of you correct me if I'm wrong, how to open up a square mile at a
time outside of that service area. Included in that would be, it would have to, the
park site happens to be a 30 acre regional park site in there committed is the
term that I got from the Planning and Zoning. How does that relate? I mean. That
almost forces those developers in that mile section to be donating that as
opposed to seeing services purchased.
Turnball: I told the Mayor that if that line stays in place I would view that as a
terrible act of bad faith on the city's part.
Martin: So, what I've just spoken I've heard from several different people in the
city. That's the plan. That's what they would like to see if that urban service plan
area stays in effect. That would seem a little bit contradictory to the people north
of McMillan wanting to be involved in this overlay area if they're going to be held
out anyway until they donate all the services needed.
De Weerd: I would imagine that if you did an overlay, you wouldn't need the
urban service area. That was the purpose for that
Turnball: That's what was driving everybody to the county~
Bird: You're 100 percent right.
Martin: Absolutely. That's what makes us do that.
Bird: I don't feel comfortable addressing our Comprehensive Plan until we have
the Public Hearing and we get it. Bill just (inaudible) and stuff so, I will say one
thing. There are a lot of things in the Comprehensive Plan that I donJt agree with.
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Meridian City CouncU Special Won<shop
June 11, 2001
Page 32
Martin: Okay. I have one last question that doesn't relate to that. Would be the
intent of getting this - you guys are obtaining sewer easements from Ten Mile
over to Locust Grove, is the intent of those, when there's a property that isn't laid
out where the sewer lines not going to follow some plan, such as a dead end in
you guys project at Bridgetower, do they plan to put that on the center section
line so that it matches both property owners north and south of that line? Is it the
intent of the city to have an easement at the section line so if there's 2 property
owners (inaudible).
Bird: I can't answer that for you except I can tell you that JUS basically laid, I
mean it's as close to being engineered as you can get. From the lay of the
ground. You're welcome to go down and pull the, if I had mine with me, you'd be
welcome to look at mine.
Martin: And, I have.
Nichols: (inaudible) some adjustments though based upon the desire to have that
trunk in the right-af-way. So, they tried to work with the development layout so
that the trunk is in a right-ofwway when it's all done. Rather than having some
unbuildable lots because of your trunkline.
De Weerd: I might offer one more suggestion since we (inaudible). From Council
Members who's had it forever. If you would submit your comments in writing as
soon as possible so staff actually knows what's coming and what issues are a
concern. I meanf this thing has been out there for a whole year.
Johnson: I'm just waiting for the drafts to sit still.
Bowcutt: Yeahf me too..
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Which draft do you want us to respond to?
Martin: The land use map that just came out is so drastically different from the
one that we had back in June of last year or the one in March of last year that I
think it's going to be shocking to most everybody.
Clegg: (inaudible) based on comments that we received (inaudible).
Martin: I guess in our defense, or maybe Marty's defense is that we were never
once invited to any of those meetings, One time did I find out because I happen
to rent a house in Meridian and the owner of the house sent me the water bilL It
had one of the hearings or workshop maybe it was where you could come and
view the charts on the walls.
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Meridian City Council Special WOCkshop
June 11] 2001
Page 33
t.
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Johnson: I don't think the SeA does a very good job on those (inaudible) to tell
you the truth.
De Weerd: The SeA was involved last fall, asked for comments.
Martin: So was the last, ...~
De Weerd: We still never got any.
(inaudible discussion)
Martin: -- and we submitted our comments then and they're still the same.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Mayor, we're getting off the subject.
Corrie: Anything else?
(inaudible discussion)
Varialle: I can't speak for Marty but I know for myself~ Marty and I started working
on this about a year and a half ago. We signed an agreement that we would
participate to bring city services to those areas. That is our first choice of all
choices~ We will stick by that~ We want to do that. The only reason we have
pursued the other routes is we both (inaudible). You know I don't know what
Marty's is but my interest bill is about 60,000 a month~ I am not going to sit there
forever waiting for that. When I came to the city and was declined for annexation,
the impression was given to me that it would be several years before the city
would look at it. If that's the case, I can't wait But, if we're going to work through
this timely and there's a reasonable solution to itr we would like to build city
services. I would be glad to develop within the city when it's annexed but it needs
to happen (inaudible)~
Corrie: Well) I think that's also going to be in the meeting the 18th. We need to
bring that in. I think the county has pretty much made up their mind already. Itfs
neither here nor there.
Varialle: I don't want to fight wars and I don't need to spend my energy uselessly
and cause problems for anybody herea We would like to do that~
Corrie: I think the city would too~ We want to do this right. Like she said, we
need to plan this because (inaudible). 20 years is nothing, really. It's going to
take 20 to 30 years to build that all out If weJve got a plan and we're going to
('...':... .
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Meridian City Council Special WOf1tShop
June 11t 2001
Page 34
(..:.. .
follow it and everybody's together on it, we'll do fine. If somebody sits there and
don't get together and talk it outJ then nothing gets done.
Bowcutt: I say that the meeting on the 18th is the first step in bringing all of the
interested parties together. Then from there, are you (inaudible) splitting off into
groups Tammy and looking at these overlay issues and trying to create some
group from that group?
De Weerd: I think you would need to create a group from that group.
Corrie: Try to play with it. See what happens.
De Weerd: You have a key contact person that would be helpful. You know if it's
Dave or -
Nichols: Dave has kind of been appointed by default or whatever.
De Weerd: So, you know if you can get questions to Elaine that you would like to
have answered that night-
***End of Side Two***
Bird: (inaudible) problem why we can't work through it instead of fight it.
Corrie: Work together, work through it and get it done for the - I meant none of
us are going to be here then but we can set the ground work right. Then it works
out
Bird: I don't know. There are a couple of young people here.
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: Tammy plans on being here. She'll be my age by that time.
(inaudible discussion)
Corrie: Okay. With that-
(inaudible discussion)
Bird: I move that we adjourn the meeting.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion made and second to adjourn. All in favor say aye.
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Meridian City Council Special WOrKshop
June 11 J 2001
Page 35
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:35P~M~
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
("
Meridian City Council Joint Meetina June 18,2001
Ada county Commissioners and Ada County Hiahwav District
The special joint meeting of the Meridian City Council with Ada County
Commissioners and the Ada County Highway District Commissioners was called
to order at 8:30 A~M. on Monday June 18,2001 by Ada County Commissioner
Chairman Roger Simmons.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird and
Cherie McCandless~
Members Absent: Ron Anderson.
Other Staff Present: Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Will Berg and Joe Silva.
Item 1.
Roll-call Attendance:
x
X
Tammy de Weerd 0
Cherie McCandless X
X Mayor Robert Corrie
Ron Anderson
Keith Bird
ADA COUNTY C01v[MlSSIONERS
~RIDIAN CITY COUNCIL
ADA COUNTY mGHW A Y DISTRICT CO~SSIONERS
JOINT I\1EETING MINUTES
JUNE 18, 2001, 8:30 AM
The Board of Ada County Commissioners (Board) met this date in an Open Meeting in the
Boise City Council Chambers to act on the following item The following were present:
Roger D. Simmons, Sharon M. Ullman, Grant p~ Kingsford, Jeff Patlovich, Patricia
Nilsson, Nichoel Baird Spencer, and Scott Cook, Ada County; Judy Peavey-Derr, Susan
Eastlake, Sherry Huber, Dave Wynkoop, Dave Bivens, J. Schweitzer, Christy Richardson,
Diane Kus~ Terry Little, Joe Rosenlund, Ada County Highway District, Mayor Robert
Corrie, Keith Bird, Tammy deWeerd, Cherie McCandless, Shari Stiles, Bill Nichols, Gary
Smith, and Will Berg, City of Meridian; Tami Bromly, Christine Donnell, Wendell
Bigham, and Bruce Gest~ Meridian School District; Dave Turnbu14 Brighton
Corporation; Frank Varriale, Primeland Development Company; Clair Bowman,
COMPASS; Elaine Clegg, Idaho Smart Growth; Joe Silva, Meridian Fire Department;
Mike Ingram and Steve Bravo, Meridian Rural Fire Protection District; Hal Bunderson;
Idaho Senate; John Eatol\ Building Contractors Association; Shawn NickeL Land
Consultants; Becky Bowcutt, Primeland Development; John Paulso.n, Dakota Company;
Daren Fluke, J-U-B Engineers; James Jewett, Stetsorl Properties; and Sharon Gallivan,
Moffatt Thomas. Minutes Recorder: Gloria Uscola.
**********************************************
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18t 2001
Page 2
( . .
I. IN.THE MATTER OF CALL TO ORDER:
Commissioner Simmons called the meeting to order at approximately 8:32 am
ll. IN THE MATTER OF CHANGES TO THE AGENDA:
There were none.
ID. IN THE MATTER OF NEW BUSINESS:
R. Simmons said this was a follow-up meeting on the Meridian Area of Impact
issue.. He asked that everyone in the room introduce themselves and whom they
represent. J. Peavey-Derr requested the meeting so he turned the meeting over to
her after the introductions..
J.. Peavey-Derr said the meeting is to discuss an alternative to developing
Meridian application by application. If they look at this as a whole, with the
cooperation of all parties, they could end up with a product that would be better
than if they did it the ordinary waY6 She thought there was an opportunity to set
precedent and establish something really wonderful for Meridian and Ada
County.. This could be a model to look at in the United States as the way to do
development. She said they would have to have everyone's cooperation in order
to do it. They have to look at the developers to put forth some money and land
and the other entities will have to be cooperative in terms of thinking outside of
the box and allowing for quicker approvals to see these things go forward. She
said she wanted to have C~ Richardson and D. Kushlan explain how many
applications have come in and what area they involve..
c. Richardson said they have seen an application for Bridgetower Subdivision.
It's between Linder and Ten Mile Roads, south of McMillan.
R Simmons said he wanted everyone to be sensitive to the fact that there are
applications pending and because of that, they need to be aware of ex-parte
c o nnnunic at ion.
C.. Richardson said she would speak from the ACHD Staff's perspective as far as
what they have received. She pointed out on a map the areas for which ACHD
had received applications or expected application for and briefly described the
projects..
J.. Peavey-Derr asked what area they are looking at in terms of this discussion. C.
Richardson replied it is from Meridian Road to half mile west of Black Cat Road
and from U stick up to Chinden.. There were some initial concerns when they first
met that the area should be expanded. They wanted to include the area from
McDermott clear over to Eagle Road.
Meridian City Countil Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18t 2001
Page 3
J.. Peavey-Derr asked if all of the applications that ACHD has were done as
proposed, how many trips would they be looking at. C.. Richardson replied that
just looking at residential lots alone, there would probably be 21,000 trips.
J" Peavey-Derr asked ifit were to develop at full build out, how many trips would
they be looking at. C. Richardson replied that she was not sure but estimated it to
be about 50,000 trips.
J. Peavey-Derr asked how many developers were in the area that the six-mile
study identified. C. Richardson replied that she was aware of six major property
owners but there are several little pieces under different ownership and she could
not identifY all of those. '
J.. Peavey- Derr said the last time they met, they gave instructions to the
developers to get together and. come forward with some parameters. She asked if
they had an opportunity to meet and what they came up with.. D.. Turnbull replied
that they met on May 29, 2001, and addressed some of the ACHD's concerns..
They thought it would be best before this meeting, to go ahead and meet directly
with the Meridian Mayor and City Council, which they did on June 11, 2001~
They looked at the ACHD issues and they do not have a comprehensive approach
because they need to involve the Meridian School District. He thought individual
developers had been approached by the Meridian School District but no overall
plan has been established. In their meeting with the City of Meridian, they agreed
to take a look at the overall area and maybe do~some overall planning work that
would involve schools. He thought the sewer and utilities have a master plan in
place but they need to look at schools, parks and recreatio~ and public safety
issuesot
As for the Meridian City issue, D. Turnbull thought it was something that would
need to take place within a short period of time. The developers do not want this
to become a protracted planning process. They look at it as being measured in
months, not years. They want to get all the stakeholders together and go forward
with the process. He thought in the previous meeting with ACHD, they expressed
concerns about impact fees and how they could acquire right.of-ways in advance
of development. He said they discussed that issue at the May 29, 2001, meeting
and came up with some ideas that probably need to be discussed more in depth
with ACHD. He thought they could set-up a mechanism where they could get
their right-o:t:way dedicated in advance and that would be reimbursed as impact
fees were collected. They understood there was a cash flow issue because plats
come in before impact fees were actually collected. He thought there would be a
way to commit aright-of...way to ACHD and it would be reimbursed at a later
time. They did not view this area as being any different than any other part of
Ada County as far as requiring any special treatment for impact fees. They would
work with ACHD to ensure the rightMof-way is dedicated without the cash flow
crunch.
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 4
J. Peavey-Deer asked if the 12-mile area were built out, how many schools would
the Meridian School District need. D. Wynkoop replied tbat they would need an
elementary school about every square mile, a middle school about every second
or third square mile, and a high school about every fourth, fifth, or sixth square
mile. J.. Peavey-Derr asked how many schools that would be. W. Bigham replied
that he felt the report Centennial prepared for the original U sticklChinden corridor
was accurate and it indicated roughly 1 00,000 square feet of educational facilities
within that seven square mile area. Those figures could easily be extrapolated out
to the 12 square mile area. He estimated they would need about 180,000 square
feet. The elementary schools need to reside about a mile and three-eights apart
and the ideal location of the elementary school is the northwest comer of one
section and the southeast comer of the other section. The Ustick Road corridor is
loaded up with schools and they need to get onto McMillan. He thought they
would need to designate about 22 acres per square mile for schools in the 12-mile
area. The hardest task they've had is trying to identify where school sites should
be~ They have a planning committee that is trying to put together a comp plan to
identify where school sites are needed. He thought it may be a futile effort
because they follow the development patterns. If development is spotty and
jumping around, their ability to site schools is compromised" If they could look at
the 12 miles as an entire entity, they could identifY geographically within a batt:
mile where they would like a school and then start working with the developers..
D. Turnbull asked ifW. Bingham could give them statistics or parameters on how
many elementary, middle, and high school students there would be per household~
W~ Bingham replied that the school district did not have the household
information by census track yet. As soon as they can get the census track
information, they will be able to identifY the number. From a historical
perspective, the number is about .8 K-12 students per household.. However, that
is for the district as a whole and the figure depends greatly on the nature of the
development.. For example, if you put in high-density housing, the ..8 figure will
increase dramatically. He said until they could determine the type of housing,
they dOll'! know the figure.. When they get the census track information, they can
take an existing subdivision for comparison and get a figure.
J. Peavey-Derr asked C. Bowman if he knew when the census information would
be available. C. Bowman replied that he anticipated the data would be released
by August or September" He did not think the data would change the numbers
that W. Bingham provided by much.
w. Bingham said if anything could be done to look at the area in its entirety they
would favor it because it is very difficult for the school district to plan with each
development. The difficult decision to make is which developer does the school
district try to extract a school site frollL
(..
Meridian City Council Joint Meeti.ng
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 5
J. Peavey-Derr asked J. Paulson if he had anything on the Dakota Company side
to add to the discussion.. J.. Paulson replied that the Dakota Company is in the
process of developing a major mixed-use project at the intersection of Interstate
84 and Ten Mile between Interstate 84 and Franklin. They are working closely
with the City of Meridian on developing utilities and participating in an
independent study regarding the provision of utilities to the site.
J. Peavey-Derr asked J. Paulson if he could give some guidance as to how to
approach the 12-mile section even though he was not doing any development in
that area J. Paulson replied that the more the community can work with the
developers and vice-versa to identify the needs would be beneficial for all
involved.~ Also, they should work on a program to get utilities to the area. He
thought the area needed to be looked at as an overall development as opposed
development by development. There is a major growth corridor that is occurring
through Meridian and there needs to be a concerted effort for everyone to work
together.
J. Peavey-Derr asked Mayor Corrie where Meridian was as far as sewer and water
is concerned and what would they need from the developers.. Bot Corrie replied
that G. Smith could give them a quick overview of the water, sewer, and utility
services.
G. Smith said the City of Meridian is presently designjng the White Drain sewer
trunk, which is located between McMillan and Ustick~ The treatment plant is at
Ten Mile Road and Ustick Road. The White Drain picks up from the treatment
plant and it will extend through Bridgetower and down the half..mile line all the
way to Locust Grove. The project is estimated to be completed by the Spring
2002. The north slough will be on the midsection line between McMillan and
Chinden from Locust Grove to Ten Mile.. It has been generally designed and no
detailed design has been done for that portion of sewer Jine~ The drainage system
for the area west of Ten Mile drains to Black Cat and then south to a major lift
station at Five Mile Drain where it crosses Black Cat Road and then it pumps
back to the wastewater treatment plant.. There is also another lift station in the
midsection between Ustick and McMillan, west of Black Cat, that will pick up the
drainage about a quarter of a mile west of Black Cat to McDermott. It will also
pump back to the wastewater treatment plant. There is a significant amount of
ground to the south and east that mIl be served by the Black Cat Trunk. It flows
into the large lift station at Black Cat Road~ The preliminary cost figure to extend
the trunk to serve the area to the south and east is about nine million dollars..
G. .Smith continued by saying that providing water is not as difficult because they
try to locate groundwater wells about every mile. They have been successful
getting water in all of the wells they've drilled so far. Last year, they completed a
two million gallon storage tank at U stick and Meridian Roads. They have one
well under construction currently in the area south of the interstate and south of
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18~ 2001
Page 6
Overland Road, west of Kuna-Meridian Road.. They have another well scheduled
to be built at Eagle Road and Overland. Those specifications are under way and
the land is being acquired.
J.. Peavey-Derr asked G.. Smith, in terms of servicing this 12..mile section that they
are concerned about, if he felt they have adequately planned and are prepared to
address the situation if this project moves forward and what timeframe they would
be comfortable with. G. Smith replied that three square miles are under design
now and they expect that to be constructed by Spring 2002. The master planning
has been done for the other three square miles above that between McMillan and
Chinden so it would just be a matter of obtaining easements and making the final
desigtL
D. Turnbull said in regard to the area between McMillan and Chinden, there are
two trunks, which are Black Cat North and the North Slough. G. Smith added
that the North Slough is between McMillan and Chinden, east ofTen Mile Road.
D. Turnbull continued by saying two developers control the primaty area served
by the North Slough or property owners who have proposed to move forward with
construction in coqiunction with Meridian. It will take that burden off of G.
Smith and move forward with the engineering on their own and the same can be
said of the Black Cat North trunk. He thought the developers could assist the City
of Meridian in moving those projects forward. In regard to easements, there may
be a few required but the developers addressed that issue with Meridian at their
meeting last week. For the most part, the easements would run through the
developers' properties but there may be one or two that Meridian may have to
help the developers acquire if there are some holdouts.
J. Peavey-Derr asked if the 12 miles are taken care for the most part.. D. Turnbull
replied it is only a matter of engineering, construction, and funding. He said the
developers have approached Meridian about those details and they are moving
forward on that basis.
G. Kingsford asked O~ Smith for the status on the plant capacity.. G. Smith
replied they currently have about a million gallons a day capacity in the treatment
plant. The gravity collection lines can be built faster than capacity can be
constructed at the treatment plant. They have a proposal for consulting work to
conceptually engineer all the other elements of the treatment plant to bring it to its
maximum capacity. It will be before the council within a week and the designing
would get started for the wastewater treatment plant.
D. Turnbull asked how much did a typical residential unit generate per day in
wastewater. G. Smith replied about a hllildred gallons per day per person.
Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 7
D. Turnbull said the City of Meridian has a plan for moving forward on its
wastewater treatment capacity and he had discussed the issue with the City of
Meridian. He thought they needed to be clear that the 12-mile area is not going to
develo.p at once. He believed everyone was comfortable that the City of Meridian
would be able to keep up with it.. K. Bird replied that he believed that was
correct.
DOl Turnbull said just because they are looking at this 12-mile area does not mean
that Meridian is going to go from its current 800 building permits per year up to
8,000. It is not going to happen~
J. Peavey-Derr asked in regard to the capacity for fires, if Meridian had enough
water in their wells to address any fire situation. G ~ Smith replied that as
developments occur, they would need to supplement their existing water supply
system to .provide fire flow. Also, wells would need to be constructed as
development takes place~ He said one well per mile would be adequate to
provide fire flow protection.
s. Huber said she was assuming they were looking at a 20 or 25-year buildout for
this area and asked how many per year would be completed and the incremental
estimated growth so they could know what they need with each service.. D.
Turnbull replied that there had not been a definitive study on it.. C. Bowman said
C01vlPASS had not done a study of it but if you look at the areas that have sewer,
water and roadway systems in place, 20 or 25-year build out is too long.. He
guessed it would be a 10 to 12-year build out. D.. Turnbull replied that he thought
it would be in that range but it was something that needed to be looked at.
E. Clegg said the Treasure Valley Futures Project has estimated that there will be
77,000 new households in the next 20 years in the Treasure Valley. She said she
could find out how many of those are predicted to be in this area but she thought
it was high.
J. Peavey-Derr asked B. Bowcutt in regard to the Bridgetower Project, did she
anticipate a seven-year build out. B. Bowcutt replied that she thought it was
about 1 0 years for approximately 1 00 units.
T. deWeerd said at their meeting last week with the development community,
they talked about an overlay for the north corridor~ The overlay would address a
lot of the different components to planning for this area, which would include the
roadways, sewer, water, fire protection, substations, and school sites. She said
there are a number of different things other than sewer, water, and roads that they
need to be concerned about. E. Clegg was suppose to bring some information to
this meeting and thought she could provide an overview of what they talked about
and what the overlay district would be. Many of these things are planning issues
and the developers seem to be amenable to this kind of approach. She said
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18t 2001
Page 8
Meridian is very interested in this happening and it seems like it will benefit every
planning interest in this room She said this is an ideal opportunity to plan this
area and plan it right.
E. Clegg said at the meeting last Monday, the City of Meridian talked about doing
a comp plan overlay, which would cover the 12 square-mile area She checked
with planners and consultants in other areas who do this kind of project regularly.
She found that it would take 12 to 18 months to complete. She thought the
developers would probably think that is too long but if they are considering a 12
to I5-year build out, it would work. In regard to cost, a detailed transportation
component would cost about $150,000 and a detailed plan for the entire area
would cost about $500,000 to $700,000. However, this is the kind of planning
that developers would do in the end for their developments so the master plan
would not necessarily have to get that detailed. She thought the plan could be
conceptual with the developers doing the planning or the project could be phased.
The conceptual part could be done quickly and then the project ,phased as
development occurs.. The way this type of project is done in other states is that a
group of agencies operating under a joint powers agreement puts out a Request
for Proposal (RFP) and they control the planning process. Typically, the
developers pay at least part of the cost, if not all of it.. The advantage for the
developers is that the plan gets adopted and they get to develop by right~ Since
the agency is controlling the plan, the .public has the advantage of knowing that it
is not just for special interests but that public good is being considered. The
public agencies have the advantage of establishing a master plan for the whole
area and they do not have to consider each development and how it is going to
occur II
D.. Turnbull said when he looks at this whole area, it is an ideal area for planning.
This area is where a lot of things are going to happen in Ada County in the next
decade so it is an important issue" The transportation elements seem to be coming
together because there are some major transportation corridors that really bind
this area. There is Chinden Boulevard on the north, Eagle Road on the east, and
the proposed connection from Highway 16 all the way up to the Ten Mile
interchange. There are some good connections to the interstate and good
east/west connections.. The transportation corridors are in place but there will be
some improvements that will have to take place. In a sense, there is a beltway
around the 12 square-mile area, which is a positive. Also, there are large tracks of
land that can be master planned so they would not be dealing with five acres .here
and 20 acres there. They would be dealing with about 200 acres per developer
and that is an ideal situation!> He said there are different developers on different
timelines. For example, F. Varriale has an appU-cation currently pending and if he
is told that he has to wait 18 months for a comprehensive pIan overlay to be
developed for this area, he'd probably walk out now. He said they have to come
up with a way to set some planning in place but allow the developers the
flexibility to move forward.. He did not think they could bottle up this area for
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18t 2001
Page 9
(~..:'..:...
two years because it is not realistic.. First of all, there is a lot of pressure building
for lot availability. There is a lot crunch in Ada County and prices are going to
skyrocket if they do not have the ability to move some of these areas forward..
The other thing they talked about at the meeting with Meridian is the idea of
getting the same thing over and over again because of the way ordinances are
written. He thought they needed to have some ordinance updates and some
planning and development updates. They cannot use Planned Unit Development
(PUD) as a tool for delay and picking apart a developer. The reason most
developers go the subdivision process instead of the PUD process now is because
it is the path of least resistance. When you go through the PUD process, the
developer tends to get picked apart until they don't have anything left. He
thought some ordinance updates could make the process provide more variety in
lot sizes and development types so there is truly a mixed-unit type of
development.
Jot Peavey-Derr asked F. Varriale to talk about his application to the extent he
could and what his timeframe was for it. F~ Varriale replied that they are
currently constructing Phase I of Bridgetower, which is 54 lots on U stick to Ten
Mile and Linder. Phase II is tied to a PUD, which is before the City of Meridian,
of approximately 750 lots, which would take them all the way up to McMillan
and it goes from Ten Mile to Linder.. The buildout of Phase II would happen in
about one year.. Phase ITI would be about three quarters of a mile up Ten Mile,
heading east toward Linder. He thought that was about two years out and wo.uld
add another 1 00 lots.. After that is complete, they anticipate adding 1 00 lots a
year for a total build out of 10 to 12 years. In the meeting with Meridian, there
were discussions of creating an overlay plan for this area One possibility that
came out of it was to be able to look at that as an entity rather than as pieces,
which may allow Meridian to look at annex:ation in pieces.. If they were able to be
comfortable in knowing that their investments were protected, then it will allow
Meridian to control the planning that they cannot control currently. When the
Meridian School District needs a parcel for a school, currently they have to wait
for annexation. In his project, they will have a school but as the Meridian School
District looks up into the next mile, they have no idea where to go because
annexation is happening little pieces at time when they want to be a mile away.
They have no idea when that is going to happen. If you are able to look at a
development that is happening up in that area, they then have much more time to
establish and secure the school site than if they had to wait a number of years until
the developer is actually able to develop in that area. He thought they could carry
that through to every phase of the services that would need to be brought to that
area because Meridian would be certain, through the overlay plan, that the whole
area would be within their controL
D. Turnbull said he thought the overlay they were talking about is conceptual in
nature.. He thought each developer is going to have to do detailed planning of his
own parcel, which he believed was appropriate. He could not see a detailed plan
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeth.l~
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18t 2001
Page 10
(.,u .
being worked out for this area. There is going to have to be a diversity of
develop.ment types and he thought that was desirable from the communities'
standpoint.. He thought they can incorporate many of the elements that E. Clegg
talked about as far as smart growth. However, the developers are always going to
be market-driven and providing the customers what they want. He thought it was
desirable to have a mix of development in this area.
J. Peavey...Derr said she did not think anyone had a problem with development
being market-driven but they would like to have a marriage that is also good for
the public agencies.. She thought the agencies needed to work with the developers
and the market but they need to include things that make sense.. If 20 years out
they are going to be required to have mass transit, they should look at it now and
build our communities in such a way that people will want to get on a bus and
make it convenient for them. If they could consider those types of things when
doing development, that only makes sense and that is what they are asking.. She
asked for thoughts on annexation.
R. Simmons said they have recognized for some time that this is a difficult area to
deal with. He appreciated the effort of bringing all of the people together in the
same room because it is something that needs to happen. He said he looks at this
area in some respects the way Ada County looked at Hidden Springs several years
ago. It is different in that you have competing developers. Hidden Springs only
had one developer so that developer could bring forth an overall pIan for the area
to create a small city out in Ada County.. Ada County is in a unique position
where they have a bWlCh of developers who are creating a similar situation but on
a spotty basis.. He thought they needed to get everyone together and coordinate
how they do this so it does not become a hopscotch type of issue. In terms of
annexation, he thought it was something that the City of Meridian is going to have
to determine and Ada County will have to try to help them deal with it.. He said
there is not much Ada County can do in terms of the individual applications
because when they come in, Ada County has to consider them application by
application. He would like to see an overall plan with the developers participating
that gives him something better to deal with in terms of making those decisions..
When Ada County extended Meridian's Area of Impact into the northeast corner,
it was because they realized that development was headed that way. He said Ada
County wants to help Meridian deal with it, but also, they do not want to ignore
that the push is on so they will all have to work together to acconunodate it.
J. Peavey...Derr asked G.. Kingsford what his thoughts were about annexation. G.
Kingsford replied that this whole area has got to be within Meridian's city limits
and be dealt with as a unit. He agreed with Commissioner Simmons' comments
that you cannot have each development come into Ada County and have it work~
He thought the overlay idea was an excellent one. It is not something that is
totally new to Meridian. The planning area is spread out so to get there, they
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Meridlan Clty Council Joint Meetbig..
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18J 2001
Page 11
would have to have an overlay of the whole area. He wished the areas to the
south would be included in this package also..
Mayor Corrie said one of the things that he encourages is that Meridian and Ada
County work together on this. He said they are looking an area with 55,000
people, which is a large city and if you add that to the other part of Meridian, you
got the second largest city in the state. He thought there is an excellent chance
they can do this whole area as an overlay and that it will work for everyone. As
far as the Council and the City of Meridian is concerned, he thought they could
work with the developers as far as annexation. He said they have to look forward.
Previously, they looked at this area north of them as going to lower density but
that does not help anyone. It was a grand plan at that time but they are into
transportation issues now and you have to have a mixed use. He believed the
Council felt the same. If they plan for it, in 15 or 20 years~ it will work. Meridian
is planning for it with water and sewer service and want to work with the
developers. He said with the cooperation between Meridian and Ada County, this
can be a great project. It just needs the planning. He thought they needed ITD
because of Chinden, Ten Mile with the new interchange, and Highway 16. If
everyone gets into the picture and works together, they can get it done. If they
continue the way they have done previously, it will not work.
J. Peavey.,.Derr asked in regard to changing the ordinances and PUD .process to
make this easier, was there any thought from Meridian about allowing that
procedure to change. T. deWeerd replied that Meridian is in that process with
Bridgetower. They submitted an ordinance change for a planned development
ordinance and that is going through with Bridgetower. She thought Meridian
would be very interested in hearing from the developers which ordinances need
some updating. Meridian realizes that they have a lot of antiquated ordinances
but it is a matter of staff time and prioritizing. Many of these issues could be
worked through the overlay process.. She was very struck by an article in the
Idaho Statesman this past weekend, which contained a lot of the information that
came out of the leadership conference in Sun Valley. It discussed some of the
things going on in the Treasure Valley and identifying the characteristics of the
individual cities in order recognize when you travel from one city to the next~
This overlay is going to be a real asset in trying to maintain what the community
of Meridian would like to see as their character and their identity. She said
everyone present has stated the importance of this overlay district and the longer
they talked about it, the longer it was going to take.
F. Varriale said in looking at this entire area, the issue of timing is going to be
very critical if the developers ate going to support and be a part of this. There are
a number of developers that own large parcels and to design those parcels and
bring them though the current process takes time.. He said Bridgetower took 12 to
18 months to get before the Meridian City Council If they were to do an
overview plan oftbis area and took another 12 to 18 months, he did not think they
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Meridian City Council Joint Meetirig
Ada C()Unty Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18J 2001
Page 12
would get a lot of coo.peration. The developers are interested in being a part of
this overlay concept from day one so they can bring their projects forward and at
the end of the year, they have a project that can be approved rather than waiting a
year and then starting the process.. Also, he said if they delay things and hold
back the .process, they will have an onslaught all at once.
S.. Huber said it appears to her that someone needs to establish what the ultimate
goals are.. As they have been talking, she thought some of the questions she had
might be for developers if in fact they are asking the developers for money or
dedicated right-o:t:ways. They talked about identifying school sites and how the
various developers can contribute to the costs. She thought that was a huge
obstacle to overcome because it may be on one developer's site but several
developers are contributing for it. It seemed they needed to decide if there is a
funding mechanism. Other issues to consider were the timing issue of the water
and sewer service and how the planning effort costs could be shared. She was not
sure if the group wanted to have four or five issues that they tried to solve but the
questions had to be answered.
D. Turnbull said from the developers meeting on May 29 ~ 2001, they want to
drive this process because if they leave it to an overburdened City of Meridian
statt: it could take forever. He did not know if Meridian had the staff right now
that has time to take on this kind of project.. The developers would like to sit
down with ACHD and discuss how they deal with right-of-way issues.. They can
also talk about whether they need any fi.u1:her study on traffic patterns. The
developers would also like to sit down with the school district and talk about their
issues. He did not think they wanted to get everyone in the same room to talk
about one party's interests~ The developers can go to the school district and find.
out what their needs are. Also, they can get with the City of Meridian and talk
about planning issues, ordinances, utilities, public safety, and park and recreation
issues. In summary, the developers are willing to meet with all of the agencies to
reach solutions*
J~ Peavey-Derr asked if they were willing to make recommendations for the
ordinances and about the process so the agencies can see where things are not
working. D4 Turnbull replied they were willing. F.. Varriale replied they have
already done that by assisting the City of Meridian with the PUD ordinance. He
said they were absolutely available to do those things..
Mayor Corrie said he thought it was stated earlier tbat a lot of people are going to
be looking at them and what they do here.. He thought it was going to be driven
by money.. This project can be laid out really well and it will be a flagship for a
lot of other communities. The partnership is the way to go. He was thankful that
Conunissioner Kingsford had the common sense to help Meridian look forward
when he was mayor because they really helped with the wastewater treatment
plant in tenus of thinking ahead. He thought they needed vision and then to go
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18. 2001
Page 13
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after it. He thought .if the developers are driving this, it would get done. It would
be done well and he believed a partnership is great.
J. Peavey-Derr asked if it was reasonable that the developers take the lead on thislo
Mayor Corrie replied he thought SOlo E. Clegg replied that she understood the
developers' concerns about there not being capacity on stafl: especially the
Meridian staff at the moment, to handle something like this but she had concerns
about it being developer driven. She thought the public and the whole region
would be better served if the developers were a partner in a joint powers
agreement but that it was staffed by Ada County because they have the best
staffing capacity. She was not sure if Ada County was willing to do it but that
was a question to ask. This would not mean that Ada County would do the
planning because ~ consultant could be hired. The consultant would make sure
that everyone in the process bad a voice and that public concerns and the
developers' interests are addressed because they have to be or else this would not
work.
R.. Simmons said from Ada County's standpoint, he would have to get the
approval of his fellow commissioners, but he was willing to recommend that the
Ada County staff be involved in the process. He appreciated the conunent that
this had to be developer driven. He thought the developers are the ones who
would put up the money in order to make this work. Also, he thought this had to
be a partnership to work" He appreciated E. Clegg's comments but when they say
it should be developer driven, they are not saying that the developers should be
able to do whatever they want. They are looking at a planning process and he
thought Ada COWlty staff as well as Meridian staff needs to be involved. He said
he would ask his fellow commissioners that Ada County give this priority in
terms of planning.
D" Turnbull said he did not mean to suggest that developers would decide this
project. He said he was suggesting that the developers go to the different
agencies and they would include E. Clegg in the process. The developers can go
to the various agencies involved and get this done in an expedited fashion. It is
all going to be decided by public agencies and open to public review.
s. Ullman said they are talking about this being developer driven but it is demand
driven. There is a demand for more housing and it just makes sense, in a process
like this, that the developers want this happen as quickly as possible. The rest of
the agencies are here because the developers are proposing to develop this portion
of Ada County right now. She said she would concur with Connnissioner
Sinunons that the Ada County staff should be involved in this process. However,
she fully expected that the developers are the ones who will want to move this
along and would go along with the concept that it be develo.per driven. The
governmental agency representatives will be making the decisions.
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Meridian Cfty Council Joint Meeti.ng
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 14
E~ Clegg said she still had some concerns.. If this is going to be an effective
overall master plan, there has to be someone pulling the pieces together. One of
the problems with the development that has occurred in the past is that agencies
do not talk to each other.. Thjs may be an opportunity to get agencies talking to
each other rather than going to all of them separately. It does not mean that each
agency is going to be wasting time solving the other agencies' problems but in
fact, there are connnon problems. She thought part of the solution was for
everyone to work together~ She said there is a misconception about what smart
growth is. Smart growth is not neo-traditional development. It is a pattern of
development that services a variety of housing and transportation needs and
recognizes environmental issues. She thought it was important to provide mixed
uses so people have choices in what kind of housing they want and that there is
commercial and retail space available. She thought the planning should also
include the public facilities like schools, parks and fire stations. Hopefully, if all
of this works well, you also get a more efficient kind of development that requires
fewer trips. She thought perhaps in lieu of bigger roads, more transit service
could be available. She said there are tradeoffs and she was not saying it would
be cheaper, but it is a different expenditure. '
D.. Wynkoop said he was hearing a lot of goodwill but he was wondering where
do they go from here and how do they actually start this process. He asked if they
would all chip in to hire a consultant to prepare a master plan and who would do
what in the process. Also, how would they do this in a timely way so that they do
not have. a huge demand that gets pent up causing a lot of pressure on everyone to
just start approving things because they have not done anything.. He thought they
needed to get started immediately and they got to have a short timeframe for it.
He thought there had to be someone in charge or coordinating the effort.
D~ Bivens said the quicker they could get on with the process of planning and
establishing a plan, the better off they would be. He thought they should not
forget that the final approval still stands with the various agencies. This project is
not the only concern of Meridian at this time.. If they allow the developers to
move on with this, the process can move on much faster It He thought it was
critical that the representatives from the various agencies be kept up to speed on
what is going on and giving that information to those who they represent. He
thought the quicker this was done, the better. Also, he thought ITD needed to be
involved in this process because that is going to be extremely important.
R. Simmons said they already have some agencies in place that could help.
Someone has to coordinate this and his recommendation was that it should be
done through COMPASS, which all entities are members of: or Treasure Valley
Partnership. However, ACHD is not part of the Treasure Valley Partnership so he
thought it was probably more appropriate to go through COMPASS. If they go
through COMPASS, they have to have a majority vote from the COMPASS board
to do it. He said when entities that are members of COIvIP ASS request something
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 15
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over and above what COMP ASS would normally do, they have to be willing to
step up and help fimd it.. He was willing to asked his fellow connnissioners to
make that connnitment.
S.. Eastlake said she wanted to point out what she perceived to be ACHD's
problem. They have just talked about what appears to be about 1,200 houses per
square mile for 12 square miles" In that area, ACHD has 22 miles of roads that
are currently all two-lane roads. The densities they .are talking about are going to
require that every one of those roads be a four-lane road.. The lane mile costs per
mile right now is between $1..2 million to $1,,5 million. In order to take each one
of these roads to four-lane roads, they are talking about $2~5 million per roads that
needs to be improved at bui1dout~ If they are talking about 500 units coming on
per year in this area, at their current impact fee rate, that comes out to about
$600,000 a year4 She asked if they were going to build a quarter of one road
every year with impact fees. She said this did not compute. There is no way that
you can take the money that this group of developments are going to create and
pay for the road system that is going to be needed unless there is massive
commercial or something else that has much higher impact fees per square foot
than residential does. She thought the planning they are talking about needs to
take into account the tremendous cost of the infrastructure needed and recognize
they need the kind of mixed use that would pay very substantial impact fees in
order to pay for the roads that this area is going to need.. She was not sure
whether Meridian was planning for this. She said she did not disagree with D ~
Turnbull about this area being surrounded by major roads. However, those major
roads are in no condition to carry the kind of traffic they are talking about. If Ten
Mile Road needs to be the north/south connector, it has to go through a lot of
houses that are currently on Ten Mile Road" The costs are way more than what
she proposed if they are doing anything like that.
Senator H.. Bunderson said he was very excited about this event today. He
thought there was whole-hearted cooperation. They have one group saying they
will finance and take the lead and that is not an exclusionary lead as he
understood it. Anyone would be able to come to those meetings~ This meeting
was a fact-finding effort so develo.pers are saying tbey will go out and do the
legwork to get the facts and bring them before everyone. Then all the issues have
to be dealt with and hopefully, they can reach a resolution. The reality is that
there is large growth occurring in Meridian and that is going to keep going. He
thought it was marvelous that the developers are going to take the lead on this and
cooperate with everyone and he was pleased with the comments to move forward.
D. Turnbull said he knew that Senator Bunderson wrote some letters to ITD
regarding the Ten Mile to Highway 16 cOIll1ection and asked ifhe had any insight
to provide in that regard. Senator Bunderson replied that clearly there is not
enough nortb/south connectors to the freeway in this valley and they need to fix
that problem. In regard to S~ Eastlake's comments on Ten Mile Road, the article
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Meridian City Council Joint Meethlg.
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 16
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he wrote did not specifY Ten Mile Road but somewhere in that area there should
be a road connecting to the freeway6 It might move over to connect with the
proposed Ten Mile Interchange.. One of the huge complaints he has had over the
years is that the public is always behind the curve. No one acts until everyone
else has acted and then it costs a lot of money. For example, the road going up
Eagle to Horseshoe Bend, ITD said they could have bought that land when they
originally proposed it at $2,000 an acre but by the time the land changed hands six
or seven years later cost over $20,000 an acre~ He thought this current project
was an opportunity for them to get ahead.. He thought they should think about
some legislation and they should make it so that government entities can
cooperate with local entities to trade zoning.. He thought that innovative ideas
should be considered as they go through the process..
D. Turnbull said he knows exactly what Senator Bunderson is saying. He
developed a parcel on the comer of Cloverdale Road and the interstate. When
they were starting the third phase of the four-phase development, ITD said they
might want an interchange there. He was flabbergasted and thought they might as
well have condemned what he was doing because an interstate would take up a lot
of territory. It was frustrating to see that lack of foresight because they had
already engineered the whole development and it was huilt out within a year. He
said he has the land between Black Cat Road and Ten Mile Road and if they want
to put a road through there, he would like to know now..
F. Varriale said in regard to impact fees and zoning, he thought that was exactly
what they were talking about with getting PUD's and proper ordinances in place
that will allow those things to happen. That process is already in the works
because the City of Meridian is updating ordinances, which will allow for the
higher impact fee areas and generate more fees than just residential development
would~ He thought the City of Meridian was already in the process of moving
forward on this and they have been concerned about it. They have had a lot of
foresight in order to meet this and they were not at ground zero.
J.. Peavey-Derr asked C~ Bowman if there was a need for a joint powers
agreement. She said she did .not have a problem with letting the developers do
research and bring it back to the decision makers. C. Bowman replied that
COMPASS could serve in a facilitator role and he thought that was the only role
they could serve in. They could keep everyone talking to one another, get the
costs on the table, and bring the transportation department in. He said they did
not need another joint powers agreement because they already have one.
G. Kingsford said COlvfPASS could coordinate all the staff involved.. He said
Connnissioner Simmons proposed that Ada County staff be made available and
he was amenable to that idea~ He thought C. Bowman's function would be to
coordinate the efforts of all the staff and allocate time at various intervals. He
said this would include the school district also. He thought if this was
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Meridian City Council Joint Meetihg
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 17
coordinated, there was enough staff to accomplish where they are going.. If the
developers are driving the process, they will keep everyone's' feet to the fire and
with C. Bowman working with them, this could get accomplished. In regard to S.
Eastlake's conunents, he said they would not only look to impact fees because for
every new house there is an increased registration and for every new car there is
an increased motor fuel tax~ He realized those things do not accomplish the full
amount but it would help get close to it.
J.. Peavey-Derr said she wanted to discuss timelines because if they walk away
now without having establishing a timeline, they will not see the end of day on
this. She asked D.. Turnbull what the developers' timeline was for going out and
visiting with the various agencies. D. Turnbull replied that they would like to
have their initial meetings with each individual entity within the next four weeks.
T. deWeerd said she tho.ught it was great having the staff and the development
community involved, but she thought this had to be pulled together by a
professional consultant. She did not see this going anywhere fast without
someone professionally in charge of driving this. The developers can do a lot of
the background but she did not think anyone at this table has the expertise to pull
this together. She thought it was wonderful that COMPASS be the oversight
body for this but she thought there needed to be a consultant that helps drive this
and pull all of the pieces together. She did not see all of them in fragmented
pieces being able to keep it in the focus it needs to be in.
D. Wynkoop said he supported T. deWeerd~s conunents because he thought with
all the entities involved, they eouId have too many meetings and unless they have
someone that is really driving this as their first priority, he was afraid the project
would languish. Then the development conununity would get frustrated with
them because they are taking forever.. He thought they needed some specifics of
how, when, and who..
D. Turnbull said it was his intention to have a professional consultant involved..
He said the developers would come up with a professional consultant and they
would be willing to work with E. Clegg.
E.. Clegg said it seemed reasonable that if they were going to hire a consultant that
they have a bid process. The overall reaction was they did not want to do that..
R Simmons said they need to be sensitive to some of the issues that the
developers have brought forward. They have applications pending out there and
he did not know if they could spend a lot of time talking about and looking for
someone to drive the process. In terms of the timeframe, he said there is a
C01v1P ASS meeting in the afternoon and he did not think there would be an
objection to them raising this issue outside of the agenda
(
Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18J 2001
Page 18
./
C
J. Peavey-Derr asked R.. Simmons what his view was on the outside consultant
issue_ RIO Simmons replied that he did not have any problem vvith the developers
hiring an outside consultant.. He thought all the agencies could work with an
outside consultant.
J. Peavey-Derr asked T. deWeerd if her concerns would be addressed if the
developers hired an outside consultant in coordination vvith Ell Clegg and C.
Bowman.. T. deWeerd replied that she thought E. Clegg had talked to D. Turnbull
about some possible names for a consultantll She thought if they could work that
out, they could just bring the name of the consultant and move forward. She said
all of the staffs are going to have little pieces of interest and she did not want to
see a fragmented effort" It will turn into a long process unless they can keep
someone focused on it.
E. Clegg said she would be concerned if the developers hired a consultant because
the consultant would be working for the developers and not for the public interesta
She thought it would have to be a partnership. She supported what the developers
are trying to do and realizes they are trying to do the best thing. She thought the
consultant should work for everyone if this is going to be a publicly adopted
overlay district..
Senator H. BlUlderson said there is great fear that the developers will hire
someone and they will not be able to present information in an independent sort of
way. However, he spent time as an independent public accountant that was hired
by one side. He had to represent his views in an independent matter to all parities.
He said it was not unprecedented for government to accept a private party to hire
someone and be an independent party to all the others involved. He thought it
was a practical matter and the developers emmat make one decision. The entities
will make the decisions..
S.. Ullman said they like to talk about development paying for itself and in this
case, the developers are volunteering to pay for a consultant rather than the
entities paying. She thought that was wonderful and she applauded them for
doing that. They have talked about the developers driving this development and
they are driving this process. If they go out and find a person, that is the way to
get it going in a speedy fashion. As far as independence, she was not sure it
mattered in this particular case because as Senator Bunderson pointed out, they
are still the decision makers. The developers are not ultimately going to be
making the decision. She did not think there was any problem with the
development community finding somebody to push this forward.
K. Bird said he agreed with Commissioner Ullman' s comments~ The public
entities still have the final say on it II If the developers are willing to get a
consultant, this will be done much faster than if it went though the public entity
process.
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Meridian City Council Joint Meeting
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 18, 2001
Page 19
('~
s. Huber said this is an opportunity to think outside of the box.. They do not know
that the end result is going to be acceptable.. They need to do things faster
because development is going to move with or without them She said doing this
would mean they thought outside of the box and it was successful, She thought
the developers needed to go with it and run_
D. Wynkoop said there is a certain safeguard to what is being suggested and that
is that if the various agencies feel that their input was legitimately considered, the
agencies would .be far more likely to feel favorable about approving the plan. If
they feel like it becomes a ramrod job, then the agencies will not be very
cooperative.
R. Simmons said earlier he alluded to Hidden Sprmgs developing an entire
connnunity outside of anybody's area of impact and a long way from anybody's
city center. He noted that Ada County was not the entity that developed Hidden
Springs.. They did not come forth with the plan but they looked at it to determine
if it was a good one. He did not think that they have to select who it is that drives
the process because they ultimately will be deciding..
c. Donnell said that school districts have no approval authority so they really are
at all the agencies' mercy in terms of what they have to do. They can only tell the
agencies that they do not believe a development should be approved because they
cannot provide the schools. The school district wants the developers to consider
the school district ~ s position.
G. Kingsford said what they are talking about is not new and it is certainly not
new to this area.. If you consider the planning for the Towne Square Mall, the
transportation plan was done by an outside consultant and all the agencies bought
off on it.. If you go back and look at the transportation done at that time, they have
come to pass ahnost exactly. He did not see anything wrong with an outside
consultant no matter who pays the bill. The agencies involved will review the
plans and make determinations as they have in the past.
Dot Turnbull said he wanted to reassure C.. Donnell about her concerns.. He said he
had the opportunity to buy two middle school sites and when he found out the
school district was negotiating with the same property owner, his company
backed oft: He felt very strongly about taking care of the schools.
J.. Peavey-Derr said she felt very comfortable with the developers, particularly
those present, and she appreciated them coming to give their opinions and
suggestions and their willingness to move forward. She said she wanted to see if
the developers could get a consultant and meet with the agencies by Monday, July
23, 2001.
{~~..-........ .:
Meridian City Council Jo1nt Mee\hig .
Ada County Commissioners and Ada County Highway District
June 1812001
Page 20
(:'.::......:..:..:.
R~ Simmons said there is a Building Contractors Association (BCA) meeting in
July and that might be a good time for the next meeting. F_ Varriale replied they
could look at that option. D. Turnbull said he was not sure the BCA would be the
appropriate fol111l1. He thought the current forum was more appropriate because
this was the group of people to discuss it. At the BCA meetings, there are other
uninterested parties that attend.
J. Peavey-Derr said the next meeting would be on July 23> 2001, in the Ada
County public hearing room again at 8:30 a.m She thanked everyone for coming
and said she appreciated their efforts.
IV. IN THE MATTER OF ADJOURNMENT:
There being no further business to come before the Board on tbis date, the
meeting was adjourned at approximately 1 0: 15 a..m.
Roger D. Simmons, Chairman
ATTEST:
J. David Navarro, Ada Co1lllty Clerk
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
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