March 14, 2006 C/C Minutes
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Meridian City Council
March 14,2006
Page 41 of 76
Item 21:
Public Hearing: AZ 05-057 Request for Annexation and Zoning of 17.25
acres from RUT and R1 to R-8, R-15 and C-G zones for Bienville Sauare
Subdivision by Red Cliff Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle Road:
Item 22:
Public Hearing: RZ 05-019 Request for a Rezone of 10.05 acres from C-
G to R-8, R-15 and C-G zones for Bienville Sauare Subdivision by Red
Cliff Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle Road:
Item 23:
Public Hearing: PP 05-059 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 54
single family residential lots, 22 multi-family residential lots, 14 common
lots and 7 commercial lots for Bienville Sauare Subdivision by Red Cliff
Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle Road:
Item 24:
Public Hearing: CUP 05-052 Request for Conditional Use Permit for
Mixed Use Regional project within 300 feet of a residence for Bienville
Sauare Subdivision by Red Cliff Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle
Road:
Item 25:
Public Hearing: MI 05-013 Miscellaneous request for a Private Street
application for multifamily and commercial development for Bienville
Sauare Subdivision by Red Cliff Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle
Road:
De Weerd: Okay. Public Hearings 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 are all related. I will open
all of these public hearings on AZ 05-057, RZ 05-019, PP 05-059, CUP 05-052, MI 05-
013 and VAR 05-023. No?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you might want to separate out Item 26
on the variance from the rest of the application.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I thought Mr. Nary told me earlier
today that they need to keep the annexation -- they can't move on the variance until the
annexation -- are you just suggesting they move the variance to the end or --
Nary: Right. That they hear the variance issue separate and apart from the others.
Partly so the full Council can hear all of the application, but also because they can't act
on the -- the Council can't act on the variance until you have at least acted on Item 21.
Maybe that was what I guess maybe I just wasn't clear with Mrs. Canning earlier in our
discussions, but --
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nary. I will open up Items 21 through 25. Open
them with staff comments.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this is the Bienville Square project.
It's located on the south side of Ustick west of Eagle Road. It includes one portion of
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Meridian City Council
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property that is currently annexed and one that is currently within the county and that's
why you have both an annexation request and rezone request as part of the approval.
This is a preliminary plat with conditional use approval to; basically, construct a retail,
restaurant, and office uses, as well as a mixture of attached, detached, and alley access
residences on approximately 27.36 acres. A portion of this property, the portion that's
currently zoned and annexed in the city was included in the Kissler, Cobb, Egge
annexation project and there is a corresponding development agreement with a
conceptual plan and I do have that concept plan if you want to refer to it. The overall
design of the site -- I'm sorry, I can't go down that, because that's associated with the
variance. Let's see. The application as currently submitted does show an access to
Eagle Road on the concept plan and I will get to there. However, it's conditioned so that
it works either way. So, the conditions of approval do accommodate not having access
to Eagle Road. This always gets difficult for me. Sorry. I didn't think about it this way,
so it's taking me a moment to adjust my presentation. I apologize. We have
recommended a development agreement with this application. That development
agreement would accommodate a number of special provisions. One was a phasing
plan. The applicant -- this would be developed in phases, but the staff felt it was
important to get the landscape buffers along the southern and the eastern and the
western property lines. So, basically, everything except the northern property line we
would ask that that landscape buffer be installed with the first phases of the
development. The applicant -- as far as nonresidential buildings, those occur here at
the front part of the property and they have requested a maximum of 54,000 square feet
of retail, restaurant, and office spaces. The development agreement as currently
proposed would limit the applicant to their request, with an allowance of up to 20
percent additional commercial square footage, which would make it a total of 65,000
square feet for more marketable conditions. The maximum square footage of a single
building would not exceed half of that maximum request. Regarding the residential
buildings, as shown on the remainder of the property, they have presented several
elevations for both the alley access residential, the townhouses, and the detached
single family residential projects. So, let me get to those. These are some of the
products. That's the attached. That's the detached. I'm not sure on the apartment
complex one. I know the applicant has a presentation prepared that will provide more
elevations for you, but -- although these elevations are -- should be included in the DA,
we would also like some clarification on specific height, bulk, types of materials, and
location for each type of elevation to address the concerns of adjoining property owners
and include those within the development agreement. Then, regarding pathways, the
applicant would coordinate with the parks department and Nampa-Meridian Irrigation
District to define the location of the multi-use pathway, bridge maintenance, and
landscaping along the Finch Lateral, which is along the southern portion of the property.
As part of the project the applicant is requesting several zones. Those are shown here.
It would be C-G at the front of the property along Eagle Road. R-15 toward the interior.
And, then, decreasing the density to R-8 as it nears the other adjoining property owners
in Carol Subdivision. The Commission has recommended approval to you. They heard
it on February 16th, 2006. Bob Unger from Redcliff Development spoke in favor. There
were several neighbors that live on Leslie Drive that spoke in opposition or commented.
Those included Bill Knorpp, Steve Grant, Candy Seeley, Linda Morris, Betty Rosso, and
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Meridian City Council
March 14, 2006
Page 43 of 76
David Thurston. All of them live on Leslie Drive. The key issues of discussion by the
Commission were the Eagle Road access, the perimeter buffers, including landscape,
screening, elevations, pathways, canals, and fencing material. Cross-access
requirement to other properties to the north, which is the Sadie Creek Promenade
property. And revised condition -- the key changes that the Commission made to staff's
initial recommendation were to revise condition 1.1.16 to read that Eagle Road access
is essential and full access at the quarter mile is preferred and to revise condition 1.14
to read that no changing to the landscaping along Eagle Road are required. The
outstanding issue before City Council -- again, as I mentioned before, this -- the
conditions are worded to, hopefully, accommodate either -- or they are designed to
accommodate either approving the variance or not approving the variance. And, then,
the Planning Commission did make a special recommendation that they wanted to pass
along to you and that -- they requested two things. They were fully in support of a --
and that's the next conversation. Sorry. The Commission has requested that if you
deny the variance that this be -- that the site design be remanded back to the
Commission, so that they make revised recommendations on the site plans showing no
access to Eagle Road. You do have Findings for approval in your packet and I will
answer any questions you may have.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions for staff at this time?
Bird: Any of none, Mayor.
De Weerd: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening? If you will, please, state your
name and address for the record.
Unger: Mayor and Council Members, my name is Bob Unger, I'm with Redcliff
Development. Our address is 787 East State Street, Suite 125, Eagle. And it's 83616.
And we appreciate the opportunity to present our project to you here. Waiting for the
Powerpoint to pop up. And \, like staff, am going to have a little bit difficult time steering
away from the variance and concentrating on the other applications.
De Weerd: I'm sure you can do it.
Unger: You bet. Okay. Well, first off, we want to state that we think staff's done an
excellent job in reviewing the project and they have been helpful in this final design that
you're seeing this evening. We also appreciate their general recommendation for
approval, of course, with the exception of the Eagle Road access, which will be
discussed at a later date, or later time this evening. Our proposed plan, as staff has
stated, we are looking at putting retail in this area; we are talking about condominiums
or townhouses in this particular area. We have rear load single family residential here
and front load single family residential in this area here. We have modified our plan in
order to comply with ACHD requirements. We will have -- there will be a public road
that comes through Sadie Creek Promenade. These are all public streets here. Runs
up -- this is a cul-de-sac that's been reviewed by ACHD and approved and that's where
the public streets end. We have no public streets accessing Eagle Road. Go to the
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Meridian City Council
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next one, Anna, please. Very quickly, these are the retail site once again, and we are
showing these two pictures, because these are the same ones that were shown to you
by Sadie Creek Promenade and the reason we are showing the same ones is that we
will be working with that developer to coordinate a unified appearance throughout their
project and our project. These are the townhouse section-of the project. These are the
structures that we are proposing. They have the capabilities of either being condos or
townhouse. We are beginning to lean a little more towards the townhousing, so we will
have to make the lot lines appropriate. These particular units are three bedroom, two
bath, and also two bedroom, two path. They would be individually owned and they are
in the square footage of 12 to 15 hundred square feet. Anna. These are the proposed
idea of what the rear load units would look like -- the structures would look like. We
have a private street that runs through the middle here, which would access the
garages on all of these lots. These lots are in the 4,700 square foot range. We will
have architectural requirements throughout this project and on those -- those structures
will be at least bare minimum is three bedroom, two bath, ranging 16 to 24 hundred
square feet in size. Anna. And, finally, the front load structures, garages in the front, all
of these lots are in the 6,000 square foot range and, once again, we are requiring
minimum three bedroom, two bath, 16 to 24 hundred square foot structures. The Finch
Lateral which runs along the southern border of this project, we have met with the
neighbors who live along the south on more than one occasion. Our initial plan was to
pipe the lateral. After meeting with the neighbors, we found out the neighbors don't
want that piped, so, consequently, we have backed off of that and we come back with a
plan that meets the city requirements and this plan right here -- it's kind of hard to see
here, but what we have is a row of trees along our -- the pathway, the pathway would be
a ten foot wide pathway to meet the city requirements. Another row of trees. Then,
along here we have a wrought iron fence, so as to be able to see through it. Some
shrubbery. Then, an 18 foot area over to the top of the bank of the lateral, which is
required by Nampa-Meridian Irrigation for access and maintenance of the lateral itself.
We would maintain all of the landscaping and -- between the lateral and our project as a
part of our project. In fact, it still would be within the project, since the lateral lays within
an easement. Anna. We are providing a great deal of open space in this project. We
are proposing a clubhouse and pool in this area right in here. This is to be a tot lot with
equipment, swings, jungle gym, et cetera. This area we have -- we have volleyball court
and basketball court and some horseshoe pits. In addition, throughout all of this area in
here, this is all -- there is over 60 feet of separation between these buildings and this is
all considered to be open space and throughout all of the residential portion of this
project we will be providing picnic tables and barbecue pits. For use of -- by the
property owners. Excuse me. As far as buffering and landscaping, we are providing a -
- proposing a 35-foot landscape strip, with a meandering sidewalk along Eagle Road.
We also -- all of this open space, we are meeting -- the minimum requirement is 25 feet
of buffer along here, which will all be trees and shrubs. Along the western boundary we
are proposing 30-foot buffer here, which includes a berm, extensive landscaping, trees,
placed in accordance with city code. I believe that's 35-foot every -- every 35-foot there
is a tree. Then we would have a pathway and another set of trees that would be offset
from the most westerly row of trees. Then, along these -- the western lot lines of these
lots we would, once again, be putting in a wrought iron fence, which would match what's
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Meridian City Council
March 14, 2006
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-- what we are proposing to come up through here. We do have -- we are showing the
pathway along here, along here, and back up into here and we do want to run it on up
and tie it into all of this, so that there is a continuous pathway that can be -- folks can
utilize. At this point, if you would allow, Rod Haggett with our office has been working
on the fencing issue along the western property and I would like for him to discuss that
part with you and, then, I'll come back and do the closing on it very quickly.
De Weerd: Okay.
Unger: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. If you will, please, state your name and address.
Haggett: Rob Haggett, 787 East State Street, Eagle, Idaho.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Haggett: Madam Mayor and Council Members, thanks for the time tonight to come up
here and discussion the fencing issue, which oftentimes when developers come in and
take an undeveloped piece of property and start adding things to, adding density and
developing, as we are here, we do feel like this is a good project, however, there are
always questions from existing neighbors, existing property owners, about the fencing.
What are we going to do to keep our project somewhat separate from theirs? In this
case -- Anna, if you can go back to the -- that slide right there. As Mr. Unger was
mentioning, the property owners to the south, we have discussed and met with them
numerous times and come up with a plan for a wrought iron fence with extensive
landscaping. The property owners to the west, we have discussed with them numerous
times on different types of fencing available. The type of fence that we would prefer to
put into this project on this west border would be a Trex wood composite product fence.
It's a long life, long lasting fence, with a 25 year warranty. It's something new on the
market. It's an excellent product. That's the type of fence we would prefer to put in as a
developer. The reason we would prefer that is that we are developing this area of the
project as residential. We will have some very nice single family homes in here.
However, it seems that in numerous discussions with the neighbors that unanimously or
almost unanimously they would prefer to see some type of decorative masonry fence.
We sent a letter out this morning that, hopefully, the Council got copies of that. If you
haven't, I have got copies of that letter here. The letter was sent to Mr. Berg this
morning. We are willing to commit to a masonry -- decorative masonry fence on that
west property line, if the Council deems that that would be appropriate after hearing
public testimony from the adjacent homeowners. We are trying to be good neighbors
here. We are trying to develop what we think is a good project. And, like I said, we
would prefer to put in a Trex fence., We feel that that's a better -- it looks better in a
residential area. In fact, Anna, if you can go to the next slide, we have the pictures.
This fence right here is from the actual Trex Corporation, that picture, and it's a very
nice, long lasting fence you can see. It blocks -- it's a solid fence all the way down to
the ground. In any event, like I said, we are willing to do a decorative masonry fence if
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Meridian City Council
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that's what the Council feels would be more appropriate for this part of the project. And
I'll turn the rest over to Mr. Unger at this time and will answer questions at the end.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Unger: Mayor and Council, Bob Unger with Redcliff Development again. Since we are
going to discuss the variance separately, then, I will just go ahead and close on this.
We do want to thank you for your time and the time of your staff. And as staff stated in
their report, our proposal does substantially comply with city regulations and we feel that
it would be a very nice addition to the city. We ask for your approval of all of our
applications and we will wait on the variance and I will stand for any questions that you
might have.
De Weerd: Thank you. Any questions for the applicant at this time, Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Mr. Unger, there was a comment in the staff report with regard to the open
space. The documents indicated there is about three and a half acres of open space
that it referenced asking the applicant to remove buffers, the landscape buffers, from
that calculation, what that density would be. Do you have that number and know what
that number is?
Unger: Mayor and Mr. Borton, no, I don't know what that number is. I believe -- and I'm
not sure whether staff is solely going with, you know, dedicated open space or whether
they are including this area also. So, I truly don't know what that number would be. I
could probably figure it out and cover that for you in rebuttal.
Borton: Okay.
De Weerd: And how much space is between the condominiums and that area you just
referred to? What is the distance?
Unger: Madam Mayor, that's -- I believe it's 65 feet. I know it's over 60, but it's under
70. So, it's between 60 and 70 feet of separation.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Canning: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Anna.
Canning: I need to respond to a statement the applicant made, just so that there is no
confusion in the future if someone is reading these minutes, but changing from a
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condominium project to townho-me project, the private streets would no longer be
allowed. So, I just want the applicant to know that and for the record to reflect that.
Thank you.
Unger: Madam Mayor, we are aware of that.
De Weerd: Okay. What bearing does that have, then, on the plat? Because, then,
there is a road width that changes as well; is that correct?
Canning: Yes, ma'am. They may need to do a new preliminary plat for that portion
that's currently shown in the R-15 zoning district.
De Weerd: And would that be a substantial change?
Canning: It would be a substantial change. That's why they'd need a new preliminary
plat for that area.
De Weerd: So, it would have to go back to Planning and Zoning?
Canning: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay. And you understand that, too?
Unger: Madam Mayor, yes. Let's say that as far as the application is concerned that is
before you today is solely for condominiums and not for townhouses and we are aware
that if we decide to change to townhouses, that we would have to come back through
with a revised preliminary plat, yes.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Okay. If there is nothing further at this time --
Unger: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. I do have a number of people that are signed up to
testify. Sue Sullivan. She's neutral and she's for the variance. Okay. You signed up
under annexation, so I just thought you wanted your two cents worth. Okay. Billy -- and
I --
Knorpp: Knorpp.
De Weerd: Knorpp. I'm sorry, the printing is --
Knorpp: Yeah. You were trying to read Billy script and it doesn't work too good. Sorry
about that.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Meridian City Council
March 14,2006
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Knorpp: I should have been more careful in a public document. My name is Billy
Knorpp. I live at 2972 Leslie Drive. So, my place of residence is about right there. I
have several things to ask. First of all, as you have perceived, we have had multiple
opportunities to discuss these issues with the developer, but it does appear that every
time they change a little bit. Now, we seem to be getting close to a solution here in
some ways, but what I would like is that somehow in your minutes or your discussion or
somewhere you write in stone some of the agreements that we have with them and that
it be -- it has to be done that way or they got to come back to you to change it, so that
we, then, have an opportunity to discuss it again with you. Those issues are that the --
now, I'm not directly affected, but I will just list them, the ones that we have major --
talked about. The stone wall on the west side has been discussed multiple times and
they have agreed to do it even tonight. That just needs to be written in. I believe that
everyone on that side would want that, although I'm -- like I say, I'm not exactly part of
that. The other part is the -- on the -- on my side of the subdivision -- or of the
development, all along this lateral, the Finch Lateral, they have agreed to put in a
double row of trees with the fence and shrubs and -- surrounding that path that's
required in there and I didn't see anything in the presentation that was just given, so I
don't know what's in front of you, but I would like it written in that they have agreed the
entire length -- because on the last drawing that I saw there were gaps where they didn't
have room, because they were putting in a parking lot or putting in something, but they
weren't putting in trees. I would like it written into the agreement or to the -- your
statements here that they have agreed to do that and that they will do it. They will make
it so that they rearrange it in one way or another so that there is a continuous stream,
continuous path of green -- of the double row of trees and the shrubs. The last is
providing some way for easy circulation of the cars when -- up here in this piece of the
development there are many -- going to be a lot of people up in there for those
businesses that are going to be there. Our concern is that if this is a right-in, right-out,
they are going to come here -- these people that are up in this part of it, which will
probably be many if those businesses are functioning, they will choose to go -- if they
want to go north, they won't be able to if this doesn't continue to be right-in, right-out -- if
it is made right-in, right-out by that barrier that that they are going to put into the middle
of Eagle Road. That means they would go out right, turn right into our subdivision,
follow the road around, and go left to go out on Ustick. We need to have, whatever you
end up with, somehow an easy path, so that there is good circulation for the cars to get
out of there and not come through our subdivision.
De Weerd: Thank you. Any questions from Council?
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Knorpp: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Ray Tomczak. And I should know your last name.
Meridian City Council
March 14, 2006
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Tomczak: You should.
De Weerd: But I only call her Mallory. I have never called her by her last name.
Tomczak: Okay. It's Tomczak. Ray Tomczak.
De Weerd: Tomczak. Thank you.
Tomczak: 1502 North Leslie. And I agree with a lot of what Billy Knorpp had said about
this project. I am for the masonry fence wall on the west side there. One thing that I
don't agree with is the homes along the west side, that they want to put in there, one of
the main agreements that we had when we went to the Planning and Zoning, when
Rewe first wanted this changed to a -- rural to a commercial, was that we would have
light office along the property line and somehow they have totally let that go to the
wayside and I'd like to know why that was not addressed and is there anything we can
do to change this around. The other thing that Billy didn't address, maybe, is that with
all the commercial there along Eagle Road going through their subdivision, that's not a
good mix there, especially if they don't get a full access on Eagle Road. Okay. Thank
you.
De Weerd. Any questions, Council? Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. Candy
Seeley.
Seeley: Hi, I'm Candy Seeley, I live at 1567 North Leslie. I am across the street from
the houses that actually border the west side of the development. I was at the Planning
and Zoning meeting when Mr. Unger actually did submit that he would put the block
fence in, so that it would match the development to his south -- or north -- to the north of
him, so that we would have a congruent-looking fence across the whole division, not
just behind the houses in his division, but also that will cover the Sadie Creek division.
He had already agreed to that. It's on record with Planning and Zoning. It has become
a really huge issue with us and he keeps -- every time he says it's going to happen he
tries to change it and he keeps doing this constantly and we are just getting tired of
being lied to by this gentleman. So, that's, basically, what I have to say regarding that.
And -- oh. It will be something that will be brought up by a couple other people, but in
the last drawing we had we didn't have any tot lots or any volleyball or whatever courts
you have got going there on the south side, to be -- having the extra noise and
everything on the properties that are bounding to the south of them. Thank you.
DeWeerd: Thank you. Okay. Now, I really can't read this next one, so -- I think it's -- I
know it's -- the last name begins with a Van. Okay. Just for our records if you will,
please, state your name. Mark Van Hume. I just -- Mark, I was just asking it so I could
make sure we had it down for the record.
Van Hume: Okay, Ma'am. Thanks. Mark Van Hume, 2654 Leslie Drive.
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March 14, 2006
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De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Sandra Knorpp signed up against. And that is noted in
our record. Thank you. Jim Lott.
Lott: Madam Mayor and Council, Jim Lott, 1343 Leslie Way.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Lott: I'm not directly bound by any of this. I am across the street, so I'm supporting my
neighbors, basically. And I have been coming to a number of these meetings and this
project has been morphing as we go along and it seems like every time we get to a
certain point promises are made that something else is going to change, but if you will
accept what we are doing here now, we will fix the problem later, and it's not happening.
So, what's happening, basically, is this development is not contingent with the
development that's to the north, basically, and so they want to keep changing this wall
down here. But tonight all of a sudden this is now been agreed upon to be some sort of
a -- just a steel wall, basically, a wrought iron wall, and I don't think the neighbors really
agreed to that. And so we are trying to be as consistent as we can in our neighborhood
and keep the continuity we have there. We are trying to protect, basically, the value of
our properties and what's going to happen with this -- with this, basically, as stated
before, people are going to use our subdivision now as an access road to get back and
head south onto Eagle Road. We can't figure out what is the fair thing to do, but if you
come into our neighborhood, which we would hope all you would, you will -- you can
have a picnic in the middle of our street anytime of the day. There is no traffic. And we
have seen a little bit of it just having an accident on Eagle or Ustick, where all of a
sudden it's a parade going through our neighborhood. And when you're talking about all
this going on here, it's going to, eventually, have to come through us as far as the -- any
of the consumers that are using these areas here. Another thing I'm kind of concerned
about is the density of the houses here. Where are all the guests and visitors going to
park? They are going to be on the street there as well. So, if you're going to start using
this now as some sort of an access road to get back onto Ustick, you're going to have a
lot of congestion in this area. Are the streets wide enough to handle police and fire and
the rest of it, because if you're looking at the size of these lots, if there is anyone visiting
or parking in front of those houses, it's going to get pretty dense in those areas. So,
what's going to happen in this whole area here? There is going to be a lot of, basically,
vacant automobiles parked during the day. So, those are my concerns and, basically, I
just want to protect our neighborhood and our values. Thank you very much for your
time.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Lott. Okay. Also signed up is Joan Lott. Signed up
against. Okay. Thank you. Just for the record. Steve Meredith. Thank you. I thought
it was much longer than that.
Meredith: Madam Mayor, Councilmen, most of the issues--
De Weerd: If you will state your name and address.
Meridian City Council
March 14, 2006
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Meredith: Oh. My name is Steve Meredith and I live at 3066 East Leslie Drive.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Meredith: Most of the concerns that I have have been addressed. My only concern is
the traffic at this point and the way I see it is it would be nice to see more circulation
through this whole development and bring it -- let me see if I can use this pointer here.
And, actually, I'd like to see this road come through, wind around through their
development, and back out up here someplace, and will eliminate going out here onto
Eagle Road whatsoever. It will send their traffic back out here at the intersection where
they need to exit anyway, and that will pretty much eliminate the issue for us. And I
thank you for allowing me to express my comments. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Is there a Jane -- Josh. Josh, if can tell me what your last
name is.
Drinkard: Drinkard.
De Weerd: Drinkard.
Drinkard: D-r-i-n-k-a-r-d.
De Weerd: No way. Okay. I'll believe that. Okay. Can you spell that once more for
the record?
Drinkard: Josh Drinkard. D-r-i-n-k-a-r-d.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. You know, I need new glasses. Mark Snodgrass.
Representative Mark Snodgrass.
Snodgrass: Mark Snodgrass. 1406 Leslie Way. And I, actually, am -- I don't have the
same history as some of the other neighbors that are here. I, actually, have purchased
a property that is adjacent just right here in the cul-de-sac on Leslie Way, so I am a
person who is going to be looking at the new subdivision quite a bit and, you know, one
of the things -- as I said, I haven't had the same kind of experience as some of the other
people that have been here. I have been to a few of the neighborhood meetings that
Redcliff made me aware of, which I very much appreciated. You know, I think that
everyone here knows that this piece of property at some point in time is going to be
developed and so I think that coming up with a plan that gives as great amount of
security for the people that are a part of that and provides transitional zones from Eagle
Road all the way over, is definitely in the best interest of everyone, including new
members of the community as well. Essentially, the two issues that I have been really a
part of have been the -- the western fencing here, I would like to be put on record as
stating that I would be in favor of a cinder block or a decorative masonry fence versus a
Trex-type fencing. I think it's a little bit more long lasting sort of thing. Some people
would debate whether or not it's as attractive or not, but with being a person that has the
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greatest amount of exposure to the new subdivision here as far as the bordering area,
that's probably what I would prefer, just for that. The other thing I would prefer would be
-- and I'm not sure if this is appropriate now, but would definitely be in support of full
access here onto Eagle Road. I'm not sure if ITD is going to be okay with that or not,
but I think that that would help to alleviate some of the problems that we would have. If
this is granted full access, I think you're going to have people that are going to be able
to turn left onto Eagle Road at that light at that point in time would also provide a buffer,
so that -- or a stopping point, which would allow people on Leslie to be able to get out
onto Eagle Road turning right if they so choose and that might be a little bit easier. But,
you know, I know we are going to get it developed at some point in time. I think it's a
reasonable and rational plan. There are some things that I was not aware of. I wasn't
aware that there was going to be some of the tot lot things here, but that could have
been an oversight on my part as well. But we appreciate the opportunity for you guys to
listen to what we have to say and I appreciate your consideration.
De Weerd: Thank you. Well, maybe you can get us some funding for Eagle Road, so
we can get the appropriate safety devices in there.
Snodgrass: We are working on GARVEE as we speak. Thank you.
De Weerd: Well, we don't ask for much. And I won't pass up an opportunity either.
Okay. Betty Rosso. We do have a letter on the record and it is noted. Thank you.
Okay. Those are the individuals who have signed up to testify. Is there anyone else
who would like to testify? Please come forward.
Grant: Madam Mayor, Council Members, my name is Steve Grant. I live at 1534 Leslie
Way. My property is on the western boundary about somewhere along in there. And I
also submitted written testimony, which I hope that you have a copy of.
De Weerd: Yes. Thank you.
Grant: But I wanted to note a couple of things. First of all, the commitment that was
made at Planning and Zoning with regard to the masonry fence on the western
boundary I think is well documented and plenty of testimony has been given tonight, so I
will just add my -- that's what I would like to see and that's what they have committed to.
In addition to that, that would continue what they are going to do at the Sadie Creek
property. Their plans are, as you heard a couple of weeks ago, is to build that style of
fence and to have it continued only makes sense. We appreciate their willingness to
agree to the 30 foot buffer, rather than a standard 25. Again, that's continuing what the
folks at Sadie Creek have already committed to. I guess everyone has made comments
about the traffic issue. I also agreed with some of the testimony that's been given that
this is not a really efficient layout with -- I mean it just doesn't seem to provide the
proper access, especially with the car loading on here that's going to occur, I mean, you
know, if you're over here or you're here, you got to wind your way all the way through
here, that just speaks to have more traffic coming in and out of here and I don't think
this is an efficient design. And as I noted in my testimony, written testimony, I know
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Commissioner Zaremba spoke at length in favor of this as full access. I take somewhat
exception to that, because I don't think -- he was in the hopes that there would be a light
there some day and as I noted in my testimony, I don't think that's going to happen,
because they are requiring funding from the developers for the light that's going to be
here and I have never heard anybody discuss funding from the developer's on either
side that would help make ITD convinced that that would be a thing they would want to
do. Plus, I think they have a -- they have indicated a natural concern for that -- only one
of those at the half mile mark. Obviously, there could be variances given, but my -- I
would like to see that -- the variance denied. I just think that will continue to be a
problem for our neighborhood, that it will force traffic down our street, whether it's right-
in or right-out or full access. So, again, I would just recommend that that not -- that
variance not be granted. I believe that covers the issues that I have. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Grant. Okay. Is there any further testimony on this
application? Yes, ma'am.
Helms: Janeen Helms. 1374 Leslie Way.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Helms: Another western neighbor. So, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, thank
you so much for this opportunity to speak. I'd just like to remind folks that when the
masonry fence was discussed, it was hoped that the style and color and basic makeup
would continue that of Sadie Creek more or less exactly. I think that the cross-over
between the two properties occurs right in the middle of someone's backyard and I'm
sure that they would appreciate it if it was a very similar product. I'd like to thank the
Planning and Zoning for encouraging that the buffering be done early in this project. I
would certainly appreciate it as an adjacent homeowner if the fencing, landscaping, was
done fairly early to just kind of minimize the dust and all during development. During
the Planning and Zoning hearing there was some question about the multi -- the front
load homes I guess they are called right along the boundary. How many of those would
be two story and all and I believe no answer was gotten to that. I don't know if there are
zoning requirements for maximum height or anything, but I was kind of interested in
knowing how tall those properties might be. So, that's all I have and I'd answer any
questions if there were any.
De Weerd: Okay. Any questions, Council?
Bird: I have none, Mayor.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. Any additional testimony? Okay.
Would the applicant like to come up to respond? If you will restate your name for the
record.
Unger: Mayor and Council Members, once again, Bob Unger with Redcliff
Development. Okay. A couple of -- an awful lot of what was discussed here pertains to
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the access to Eagle Road, which is part of the variance. So, do you want me to address
this now or do you want me to wait?
De Weerd: I would like you to wait, please.
Unger: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Madam Mayor and Mr. Borton, to respond to your
question on the open space, if you take away the buffer areas, that reduces our total
acreage by 8.95 acres.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
Unger: I mean .895. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm glad you raised your eyebrows.
Borton: Down to about 2.5 acres?
Unger: Correct.
De Weerd: So, what is the percentage?
Borton: I think you were at 12.9 percent originally.
Canning: Madam Mayor and Council, before we get too far into that conversation, I
suspect that that was a holdover from the Sadie Creek one, that the two staff reports
are patterned after one another. The residential portion of this project, which, actually,
had no required land use buffers, because it's residential against residential, the open
space that the applicant is providing all qualifies as open space. The property
immediately to the north, however, had commercial zoning and commercial zoning is
required to do a landscape buffer. So, there appears to be an error in the staff report
there.
Borton: Okay.
De Weerd: Thank you. But we appreciated your calculation.
Unger: You're welcome. Okay. Just to try to run through a couple of quick things,
though. The pathway in the buffering and the fencing that we are showing this evening
was reviewed with all of the southern property owners. As a matter of fact, although
they didn't want the wrought iron fence, they wanted a solid fence, with the Finch Lateral
being opened; city code requires that that be a fence that you can see through. You
can't have a solid fence running along there. And that's why we have gone with the
wrought iron fence, but, in addition to that, we have double the number of trees along
this buffering area to provide a better visual buffer for the folks that live along this area
here. As far as the amazonite wall -- and I'm going to say it one more time -- and what
happens -- and what has happened -- and I will be perfectly honest with you -- you
know, I stand up here and agree to the masonite wall and, then, later on in the
discussions the owner says, well, are you sure we can't do something else and we try to
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talk to the property owners and it looks like that I'm lying to you and lying to them,
because we keep looking at this possibility of maybe coming up with a nicer looking
fence. The bottom line, you have a letter from us that says we will construct a
decorative masonite fence along the western border and we will do that and I'm saying it
on the record right now. You could put it in the development agreement if you'd like to.
But we will do that.
Bird: Madam Mayor.
De Weerd: Is it masonite or masonry or --
Bird: Is it masonry or masonite? There is a big difference.
Unger: masonry.
Bird: masonry. Okay. masonry.
Unger: I have done the same thing myself.
De Weerd: I thought maybe I was missing something.
Unger: masonry.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Unger: You're welcome. I can't talk about that yet. Okay. Ah. There was concern
about parking -- sufficient parking for this project. All of these condo units have garages
and there will be two car garages to each unit. So, that right there, in itself, provides
two parking spaces per unit. But, in addition to that, we have provided additional
parking throughout this portion of the project for visitor parking, et cetera. There will be
no parking along this section of the road. It will be posted that way. These are all public
roads and there is -- on-street parking is allowed, as in any other single family
development and which is exactly what this portion of the project is. Okay. I can't talk
about that. I can't talk about that. The wall. I think we got it. I think I responded to all
the things that I can at this point in time, so I will stand for any additional questions you
might have.
Canning: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Anna.
Canning: Just by my notes, if the applicant might want to address the tot lots and the
play areas and the height of the structures along the western boundary.
Unger: Okay. Mayor and Council Members, the tot lot -- we have the tot lot projected --
you know, shown in this area right in here, because this is where the clubhouse is, this
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is where the pool is, felt that was an appropriate place. Typically the volleyball court,
basketball court, and the horseshoe pit that we were showing over here, are -- those are
more -- those are typically used by adults or teens. So, the idea was to have the tot lot
located over here where they would be separated from the more adult-type activities,
which would occur here. That's why we have those separate locations like that. If the
Council feels that we need to change those around or staff feels they want those moved
around, certainly we can work with that and we do have additional open space in this
area and down through here. The idea of the tot lot being here, it's located close to the
clubhouse and better supervision. As far --
De Weerd: Can I ask a question while you're on the tot lot? You have it backed up
against a commercial area or a mixed use commercial office area, the tot lot. What kind
of safety measures are put in place? Is there a -- is there fencing along that -- that
property line as well?
Unger: Mayor and Council -- and possibly staff might correct me if I'm wrong. I believe
that Sadie Creek Promenade is required to put some sort of fencing or wall along that
boundary. I know it is -- it is something that we specifically sent a letter to the city
specifically requesting that they be required to do that and I believe they were.
De Weerd: I don't think I remember a fence in there, so--
Canning: Madam Mayor, I don't have the Sadie Creek file with me tonight.
Unger: Madam Mayor, if, in fact, they weren't required, which I would be very
disappointed that they weren't, but if it was not required, it would behoove us to go
ahead and fence this area along here.
De Weerd: Okay.
Canning: Madam Mayor, I do know that they were required to address the issue of a
buffer for a commercial use adjoining a residential use. So, at the time of construction
they will have to have a land use buffer between the two uses.
De Weerd: Okay.
Canning: But I'm unsure on the fence.
De Weerd: We may want to look at that.
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members --
De Weerd: I guess my concern is just that tot lot next to a commercial area and how
that separation would be done.
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Canning: Maybe just want a fence -- Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you may
want to consider just fencing the tot lot as well.
Unger: And we could do that, Madam Mayor, fence around the tot lot itself, if that's a
problem. And the other question was I believe the height of structures along here. We
are not proposing any restrictions on height there, other than what meets code and what
would be allowed by code. A two story structure would be the maximum story height
and I believe your maximum total height is 35 feet or -- yes, 35 feet. So, we certainly
would not exceed the city zoning requirements for height along there.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any additional questions that you want answered?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Anna, if you'd go back to the design concept for the commercial. That is
what I would expect. And that's consistent with Sadie Creek. I said the same thing to
them. That sets your design and architectural criteria. Okay? Now, would you
juxtapose or just show what they show for condominiums? I have a problem between
what you're showing with the commercial and the product you're showing with the
condominiums. They don't work together, in my opinion. So, I have got a design issue
there. I'm not sure that that's consistent with the concept of a leisure center that's being
proposed for this area. Just to let you know. I envision 23 buildings sitting there that
look like barracks. I mean I don't have any information about materials, colors, design
variation. We have been very specific on some of these of late, since we have been
blessed with some that are less than satisfactory in the City of Meridian. So, just to let
you know, I have a concern there. I don't know that you can address my concern this
evening. I would want to see other designs. I would like to see materials. I would like
to see color schemes. I would like to see something that's consistent with the vision you
have created for the commercial. I'd like to see the same vision for the residential.
Particularly the condominiums.
Under: Madam Mayor, may I respond?
Rountree: And that's more along the lines of discussion, but you certainly can respond.
Unger: Thank you. The commercial design concept came straight from Sadie Creek
Promenade, because we have always agreed that we would work to provide an
appearance that is -- you know, that is uniform with them, so, it somewhat restricts our
ability to design a structure that would go along with that. Now, these structures are
very residential in their appearance. In fact, I -- this shows single car garages. We
have revised the structures to provide two car garages in here. But the entire design of
these structures are very very residential looking. They are in no way, shape, or form
any kind of a barracks looking structure. You know, they have nice covered front
porches. The material that we would have on this -- it would be -- excuse me --
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masonite type siding, which you're pretty much seeing standard on homes throughout
the valley right now. And we would go with more natural colors throughout the project.
I mean we are not going to paint every structure the same color. We will have varied
colors throughout. They will all still be more of a natural tone type colors. We are also -
- if you look at these -- these areas in here, the gable ends, those -- you know, that
won't be just regular siding, that's going to be more of a shake type appearance on
these. And we will mix them out -- mix them up throughout all of the projects and mix
the color variations. Masonite -- or I'm not -- sorry. Asbestos--
De Weerd: Asbestos?
Unger: Let me back up. I'm a builder from way back. We used to have asbestos
shingles, now they are fiberglass shingles and, actually, they will be more of the
textured 30 year warranty type shingles. So, they are -- you know, we are trying to put
in something that -- in fact, this design does not exist anywhere in this valley, because it
is a brand new design that we have just brought to the valley. In fact, the final
architectural plans have not been totally completed. Very close, but -- in fact, our first
project -- we will be building these structures in our first project in Boise probably six or
eight months out -- down the road yet. So, they are very very unique. Anna, could you
go to that -- I believe it's down to the landscaping strip, because I really think it -- they
do have -- I think we do have a decent -- oh, it still doesn't show up well. It didn't work.
This picture, actually -- I can't tell it either. But I believe this picture here shows it -- but
it's not there, so you just can't see it. Could I just -- you can pass it around and look at
it. It does give you some sort of idea.
Bird: Why don't you put it on the overhead.
Unger: Oh. Okay.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: While Mr. Unger is doing that, I have the Sadie Creek findings -- or the Sadie
Creek staff report in front of me and it appears at the time -- and I think my recollection
is the same as Madam Mayor, I don't know that that was fully decided and according to
this staff report that was submitted when that was heard before the Council, there was
no detailed fencing plan and the staff requirement was that a fencing plan would be
submitted prior to final plat. So, I don't know if that sheds any light on it, but it may not
have been resolved yet as to whether there is fencing between these two different
projects and there is, of course, a lot of discussion regarding cross-access between
those projects as well. But that's what the staff report indicated at the time and, again, I
don't recall that there was a final decision on fencing on the night of that application.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Nary.
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Unger: Madam Mayor. Although it's hard to see through the trees, this is one of the
structures here. The side view of one of the structures. As is this one right here. Of
course, they are -- this is the open space between the -- between the structures with the
driveway back over in this area. Now, this was -- this was done by our landscape
architect to actually show you the landscape buffer that we were running along here.
But it does give you some idea of the appearance of them, if that helps. What we were
going for was that right there, so --
De Weerd: Are there more pictures in that?
Unger: Madam Mayor, what they are shooting for is this overhead shot that our
landscape architect did, she plugged in some buildings. They are not representative of
the buildings we are going to build, but she was putting something in there, just so that it
wasn't a -- just a blank piece of land sitting within the commercial part. So, I think what
they are trying to accomplish here is to show that to you to say that, well, this is what
they are really planning on doing, instead of what we have just discussed. And certainly
show that, Anna, please.
Anna: Is that what you're referring to?
Unger: I think that's the one. What happened here -- and, once again, these are the
four-plex buildings and that is a design and she specifically had, so she was able to put
these structures on here. Then, she took some -- just some standard commercial
structures that they have on record not ours, and just put them on here to show just --
just to fill in the blank. And it's not what we are going to build. It has never been what
we were going to build. And solely -- this whole -- these pictures that you're looking at
right now were solely for the purpose of showing the landscaping, the path, and all of
this along the southern border of the project. It was never intend for anybody to use
these structures for any use whatsoever and the only reason I even brought it up was to
maybe give Mr. Rountree the opportunity to get an idea of what these structures would
look like.
Rountree: Thank you.
Unger: Thank you.
De Weerd: Anything further, Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton.
Borton: Anna, if you could put up that commercial section again. I have a couple
questions, but I have got a couple comments first. I agree with Councilman Rountree's
concerns a great deal. Before I get there, a couple of thoughts or comments that I have
got with regards to location of tot lots and volleyball courts. It seems -- I don't know if
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obvious is the word, but it seems obvious, that a tot lot next to a potential brick wall,
which abuts the back of some commercial building is maybe not the best place to put
that or the most convenient. On the other side a volleyball court next to a fence and a
canal, a volleyball -- having grown up playing at Park Center and swam in the pond
many a time to fetch those, you're just enticing young kids to hop your fence and jump
in the canal to get it out.
De Weerd: There was no swimming in that pond.
Borton: There was when my volleyball goes in. Any kid under 18 is going to jump in
and get it, so -- at any rate -- Anna, can you put up the commercial?
Canning: I'm trying, sir. It's--
Borton: Here is another comment of mine and this is -- and I'm relatively new at this,
but I'll tell you what I'd love to hear in any situation like this where there is a meeting of a
developer and neighbors and it's long and lengthy and over the course of some time
there is an agreement at the end of the meeting, that it's put in writing and that it's some
sort of nonbinding memorandum of understanding. We do it in litigation all the time,
even when you don't complete a complete agreement on any issue. But I'd love to see
that and never hear again situations where people come forward and neighbors say he
said A and you stand up and say, no, I said B and it's just absolutely worthless, at least
from my perspective trying to resolve what took place. I do note that the February 2nd
minutes of P&Z, Mr. Unger, you did make reference to the tot lot, the basketball courts,
the volleyball courts. You also made specific reference to your agreement to provide
fencing along the western boundary consistent with whatever Sadie Creek was going to
do. It's on page 47. You were very clear on that. So, with regards to meetings with
neighbors, if there is any chance to get anything agreed to, I'd love to see it in writing
before everyone leaves the room. I'm off my soapbox. Tell me -- tell me about what
happens up here. It seems like some of the drawings were consistent or required some
sort of access here. One of the ones shows kind of a parking lot wedged up against
what would be a wall. Is that not the case?
Unger: Madam Mayor, Mr. Borton, actually, no, there isn't a wall along here. This is a
curbing. We were working with the Sadie Creek Promenade folks on an access right
here, right-in, right-out access, which was denied by this Council. At that time we had --
this drive aisle came through, we had this access coming down, they tied together,
came down, and went out this way, an access here. And another access right here.
Since this was denied, this right-in, right-out access was denied, we have had to come
in and tie a drive aisle coming through here down to this area, which would come out to
the access, which would go out to Ustick Road through Sadie Creek Promenade. Also
one right here. So, they have some parking along here that -- you know, that they are
showing and this is a drive aisle that comes down and ties in here.
Borton: So -- Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: So, is that what that would look like, then, or is it actually going to be little stubs
to this development?
Unger: I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand that. Stubs?
Borton: To the Sadie Creek -- whatever takes place over here.
Unger: There would be a stub here and a stub here. Sadie Creek Promenade was
required by the Council to provide cross-access for us to Ustick and we do have an
alignment. It goes out further here. I think in our overall plan it's easier to see. But we
do have alignments that work.
Borton: One other question -- Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Borton: One other question. In your meetings with the neighbors -- the neighbors to the
west, was there any discussion or concern by them about -- I think they are an R-2 --
about an R-8 and the density adjacent to their property lines and if that was discussed
what did you get from that? Any concerns?
Unger: Madam Mayor, Mr. Borton, actually, the main -- the main concern, as I recall, in
those meetings that was brought up was that they would prefer to see office.
Borton: Sir?
Unger: They would prefer to see office along there, instead of residential. I believe that
was an issue from way back in the original annexation of the Rewe property. What we
are proposing is single family abutting single family and, as I recall, that's about the
extent of it. I mean I don't -- I don't believe the neighbors particularly supported the
single family -- you know, the density that we are showing, because their preference
was -- you know, would have been the office. But we have found that -- I mean this is
what we have moved forward with and we find that marketwise works best for our
project.
Borton: Okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: I guess just to take some of the questioning that Mr. Borton had, in terms of,
you know, the next item on our agenda aside, you know, you wipe off that access,
because right now you can't have it without the variance. So, without that access, how
best can your circulation -- how best can your traffic circulate internally? How I see that
alignment to the north --
Unger: Anna, could you get the full size plan up?
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Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, it's going to take me a second. This
CD keeps on crashing on me, so --
De Weerd: Well, you know, just as you show right here, it doesn't really show a good
internal connection. You mentioned something here and they have parking lot or
parking spot. Here it's also a jog, too. So, I guess I was thinking, as the neighbors have
testified, and even that -- I would -- if you can just kind of walk us through that
circulation and how these people who are destination to your retail -- and that is very
attractive. We got very caught up in Sadie Creek's architectural renderings and I'm
thrilled to hear that you're carrying it into yours. But how will you really capture the
traffic and the activity that's going in here to send them through that -- the other
development, since, in all likelihood right now, you do not have a variance. So, can you
kind of tell me what your plan is internally?
Unger: Madam Mayor, haven't thought this through completely, but -- let's work with
this. Sadie Creek Promenade has a right-in, right-out -- I can't even find it right now. I
believe right in here somewhere. They also have another access here and one down
here. They have a drive aisle that works through here, which will come down and make
this connection. Also, they have a drive aisle here that would connect to our project and
come out to the -- the other right-in, right-out. So, we would have circulation through
here and access out to Ustick and down through here and out to the signal, which would
be right -- located right here. One of the things that -- in our discussions and
negotiations with Sadie Creek Promenade on accesses, et cetera, it has always been
stated by Sadie Creek Promenade that all of these buildings are conceptual and that
they could be moved to provide better access through the project. You required them to
provide cross-access for us to get the -- for traffic, to get it out through there. So, we
would still have a good traffic circulation in throughout this area and access out to Ustick
in three different points minimum. At least three different points.
De Weerd: Okay.
Unger: That's if we didn't get our variance, which we certainly will hope to get.
De Weerd: So, three different points -- and I just see two right now. Oh, your point
there to the west. Okay.
Unger: There. There.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any additional questions?
Unger: Madam Chair, could I --
De Weerd: Yes.
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Unger: I didn't respond to one other question Mr. Borton had. His concerns about the -
- the courts here and the -- you know, tot lots. If those are real concerns, we can move
them to the interior somewhere. I mean if those -- if those are real real huge bumps in
the road, we can move them somewhere interior. They seem to be the best location on
the site. You know, we have -- the volleyball court is oriented this direction. There is
the fence there -- yes, there is only six feet, but, then, again, there is every 17 and a half
feet there is a tree. So, there is an awful lot of blockage here. The basketball court is
oriented in that direction. So are the horseshoes. The tot lot I think -- yeah. Okay. I
can see that as a real issue and I can move this tot lot up into this area. But if it is a
huge bump in the road or bump in the road, we will move those away from the
perimeter, if that's what you would like.
Canning: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Anna.
Canning: Members of the Council, with the questions raised tonight, I was searching
through the staff reports and findings. The analysis that was done for the residential
portion treated it just as a residential project, not as a multi-family development, which
the condos would need to be approved under. I'm not sure that the -- that that's been
clear along and we probably need to get that clear for the record. But as I read it right
now, the multi-family portion would need to come back in for a Conditional Use Permit.
Okay. Just as long as we are clear. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Do you have anything further?
Unger: No, ma'am -- Mayor, I do not. And we certainly would ask for your approval on
our project this evening.
De Weerd: Okay. That concludes the public testimony on these items, exclusive of the
variance. Okay. Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I actually have a question for Chief Musser. I'm curious your thoughts or
concerns from the department's perspective on this type of curbed alley, private alley.
It's been discussed I have heard before and other situations that the private alleys are
difficult for the police department to deal with. You don't -- you're not maintaining them
or leasing them yourselves and that design -- a curb design like that, is there any unique
concern in the department's perspective on anything from vehicle theft or burglary or
anything that might take place that that invites?
Musser: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Councilman Borton, reference the
alleys, one thing that we have pointed out where they are private property, we won't
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enforce on them, they are not under the city ordinances for alley speeds and that type of
thing or even -- even, in essence, parking. Short of looking at helping the fire
department in terms of having the access open as a potential fire lane on their end of it.
Currently at this time there seems to be a push nationwide for a little bit more of some of
this type of housing and, really, in all essence, with the -- without the materials that are
out there, it seems to be relatively open as far as with whether or not it's lending itself to
an increase in crime. In most instances they are finding that the neighborhoods are
holding their in terms having that. And especially within a mixed use concept plan like
we have here, you don't have a high saturation. High saturation seems to lend itself
more to potential crime, as opposed to having the mixed use concept. As far as the
traffic patterns and looking at other potential things in there with parking or any of that
type of stuff, time will tell in terms of where the traffic sits and parks at and most of that
will probably be based on who occupies the buildings. So, we will have to wait and see
as -- you know, if they are purchased ones or if they end up being rental-type units, that
type of thing, may be an impact on the parking. If they have garages, traditionally, we
find they use them. However, if it's a -- a group of say young adults that are renting that
type of a facility and they are sharing and maybe they have a number of them moving
in, then, you may see three or four vehicles, in which case a couple occupy the
garages, but a couple will be parked on the street. So, it, really, kind of depends on
who is marked out to it and who purchases it.
Borton: Okay.
De Weerd: Thank you, chief. Anything further, Council? Okay. What is your desire?
Do you want to close the Public Hearing? Do you need additional information?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I would be inclined to continue the Public Hearing. I'm concerned about
architectural design details. We do not have design review in Meridian. What you get
here tonight is what you get. So, I would like to see more information from the
developer at it relates to design, the quality of the product they intend to build, and that
would be where I am. I don't know where the rest of the Council is. As opposed to
closing the hearing and moving to deny.
De Weerd: Mr. Unger, I believe that the Public Hearing is still open and I do know you
have mentioned that this product would be new to this valley. Are there pictures that
you can get from where ever you're getting this concept, that these type of products
have been built in other areas? Can you get actual pictures? Certainly better than the
renderings you gave us. And you just heard the opinion of one Council Member, but I
think I also heard it from a second Council Member as well.
Unger: Madam Mayor, Council, Bob Unger with Redcliff Development. I assume that
Mr. Rountree is talking about the commercial and the condos or just the condos?
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Rountree: Madam Mayor, Mr. Unger, you set the standard for commercial by your
renderings. I'm concerned about the condominiums.
Unger: Madam Mayor, Mr. Rountree, we do not have pictures or designs of the
commercial structures. These are pads at this point, as were Sadie Creek Promenade.
And our whole intention was to identify that we would work with them.
De Weerd: Mr. Unger, he felt comfortable with the commercial.
Rountree: I'm comfortable with the commercial.
commercial.
You have set the standard for
Unger: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.
Rountree: It's the condominiums.
Unger: And you're looking for the --
De Weerd: Mr. Unger, if you will --
Wardle: Madam Mayor, before you move off the commercial, I have in my packet a
rendering and a picture that's different than the one that I saw presented this evening,
that was presented at Planning and Zoning, and so I still have the issue addressed, as I
did with Sadie Creek shortly ago on the commercial aspects. So, if you could just
continue that and, then, address Councilman Rountree's issue, that would be great.
De Weerd: On the commercial?
Wardle: On the commercial.
De Weerd: Okay. So, I guess just if you can address the commercial and, then, to the
multi-family.
Unger: All right. Madam Mayor--
Wardle: Let me rephrase my question. What specific assurance does this city have
that the two pictures that depict some sort of a building -- what assurance does this
community and this city have that that product will be build? That's my specific
questions on the commercial.
Unger: Okay. Mayor, Mr. Wardle, let me ask you back. Whatever assurances you got
from Sadie Creek Promenade, we will give you the same assurances, because we are
trying to provide the same appearance that they are. They moved -- they were ahead of
us. They have set the standard and we are going to have to follow that standard. If
they brought to you structures, elevations, and designs and materials, et cetera, that
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define those, then, certainly, we would do the same and follow suit with them. If they
did not, then, it's very hard for us to give you that, if you understand what I'm saying.
Wardle: Madam Mayor, maybe I should -- you can look at the minutes. For this Council
Member that wasn't enough.
Unger: Okay.
Wardle: So, I raise the issue again for the rest of this Council on that specific
commercial.
Unger: Madam Mayor, Mr. Wardle, if this Council would like us to provide something,
I'm sure that we can go to our architect and bring some things forward that we can show
you. Okay? I don't know if that's the consensus of the entire Council, but we are
certainly willing to work with you folks to provide whatever it is you're looking for. It's
just very very hard for us to do that And if, in fact, the Council has not -- or Sadie
Creek Promenade has not been required to define precisely what they are going to put
up, then, maybe this will be our opportunity to set the standard and let them follow us for
a change. Because they certainly have put requirements on us inadvertently, such as
the masonite wall that separates the commercial from -- masonry wall. Thank you.
masonry wall that separates commercial and the residential. I mean they have dictated
that we will build 900 feet of masonry wall, where they only have to build 290. So,
maybe it's our turn to make them follow our design. And, certainly, if that's what you're
looking for, we will do that. We will come back with something for you. Because it
sounds to me like Mr. Rountree would like to see us tabled for additional design review
on our condos and maybe that's what we need to do. But I think, you know, what I'm
concerned about is, you know, fairness, in all reality here, is -- you know, we have got
Sadie Creek Promenade, who walked through the door, who had all of the neighbor
support with a concept plan, and they got approved. We are coming through with
something that we have actually defined some things and the neighbors don't support
us, we are the bad guys, and it makes it very difficult for us to -- you know, to say where
-- you know, where is the equality here? You know, we have standards for these guys,
but we can't follow the same standards, because they, actually, didn't define their
standards. See what I'm saying? So, it makes it very hard for us. But we will certainly
work with you and try to come up with something that -- you know, that you can look at
and feel more comfortable with. One question. Staff -- I believe that every structure in
the commercial portion of this project would have to go through conditional use; is that
right, Anna?
Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, the --
De Weerd: That would be painful.
Canning: -- one of the -- one of the conditions of the original development agreement,
which was on one of the pieces of the property, was that everything would come
through with a Conditional Use Permit They have provided this concept plan to meet
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the former requirement of the planned development, kind of overall concept approval,
and that's the CU you're providing -- approving tonight, replaces the planned
development CU that you used to see in the future. You could condition -- you could
place conditions to -- we have already discussed that the multi-family needs to come
back for conditional use approval. You could certainly select other areas where you
wanted to see that. Or not see it, as the case may be.
De Weerd: Mr. Wardle.
Wardle: Madam Mayor, my preference has been -- my preference would not be to have
each of those buildings come in for a conditional use -- to decide upon this issue as an
individual project, so --
De Weerd: So -- but what you are asking more for is more detail in the architectural
type of style.
Wardle: Those are my specifics.
De Weerd: More so than what we saw with Sadie Creek.
Wardle: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay. And Councilman Rountree wanted more information regarding the
multi-family and since everyone's asking for something, I am curious, and I have tried to
-- Anna, could you show the housing styles that are going to be on the most westerly
side? Are those the ones with the garage and the front door on the bottom floor? I
guess I was a little bit more concerned with the look of that and we had something come
in front of Council in Old Town that showed -- I don't know if it was a two-plex or a four-
plex and it was just -- the front showed just garages and a door and I liked the top floor
of it, but I guess the floor -- or the view from the street was of concern. And since
Council didn't say anything, I thought at least I could give you my two cents worth.
Unger: Madam Mayor, you're not talking about these, then?
De Weerd: No. No. But I agreed with Councilman Rountree. He already said enough,
so I wasn't going to say anything.
Unger: But the single family units -- the detached single family units along the western
boundary -- I mean they would be of a standard single family dwelling, then, I believe it's
16 to 24 hundred square foot structure. I mean we are not -- we are not specifying the
exact design that is going to be in that single family lot. We will have architectural
requirements, architectural committee for reviewing. There will be specific standards
and sizes and details on those single family buildings,
De Weerd: Well, sometimes it's really difficult to come after a project that we find very
ugly and we have one of those in our city. So, we have had discussions amongst staff
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and this Council that we are -- we are very interested and committed to certain
standards in our city and we are raising the bar on that. We do have a level of
expectation and my interest in the renderings were that the first floor of those single
family dwellings showed me a garage and a front door and that's all I saw from the
street level. And so that was my concern. Certainly on the side that the neighbors see
in the back they are not going to see that and I'm sure they appreciate that. But I just
had more of a question as to what the street appeal is to that kind of a product, because
we have seen it and we see it every time we drive down Pine and Ten Mile. We see
garages and just doors. And so I just had that question.
Unger: And, Madam Mayor, that is exactly why we have the groupings of rear load
structures also, so that you don't drive down the street and see garage door, garage
door, garage door, garage door, garage door. That's part of the reason that we
designed it that way. And, of course, along the western boundary it made more sense.
I mean we couldn't rear load those like the other ones, so we do get a mix. And may I
say that the price range that we are looking at on these homes is in the 280 to 320
thousand dollar homes and we are not -- we are not going to allow entry level homes in
this project. It's not our plan. It's not what we want to do. And we will -- I mean this is
our project, we will build this project, and it's not something we are just going to sell
everything off and walk away and let somebody else do it. We have a commitment to
this project and that's -- you know, we will have control over that. I mean there will be
specific CC&Rs and architectural requirements built into this project and they will be
recorded, along with -- prior to our plan even getting recorded or at the same time.
De Weerd: I guess, Bob, if I could ask you when you do come back with some of the
other details, if there are products out there in the valley right now that are similar to
what you're trying to show here, if you could give us a visual on that, too.
Unger: Okay.
De Weerd: Like I said, I love the second floor. It's really nice. I'm sorry, but the garage
doors and the -- a row of them -- one of the great things is we don't have design review,
but one of the bad things is we don't have design review.
Unger: Exactly. Okay. Council, anything else?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: One question for Mr. Knorpp's benefit. For the record, are you in agreement to
doing the double rows of trees along the south side? There was a --
Unger: Oh, absolutely. Our plans shows it. In fact, my revised master plan that you
have actually has a detail showing exactly that.
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Borton: Okay.
Unger: And that's what the Planning and Zoning Commission approved was that
revised plan.
De Weerd: Sorry we have made this very painful. Anything else, Council? Okay. I
would entertain a motion to continue the Public Hearing on these items.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we continue the public hearings on Items 21 through 25 until -- in
April now. April 4th. Okay.
De Weerd: Yeah.
Rountree: Until April 4th and have the developer bring back to the Council for
consideration design concepts and renderings for the condominiums, some product
information related to the front load single family dwellings, and either specific design
criteria or specific examples of commercial, in all cases would include the combination
of varying materials, colors, and facades.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton. Well, I need a second before we would have discussion.
Borton: I will second. Maybe I shouldn't. Let's see if I do this wrong procedurally. I'll
second the motion, but the question would be whether or not it should be April 4th or
not, or a date later when Mr. Wardle's in town, to the extent that --
Rountree: He's out of town on the 4th?
Borton: On the 4th. Because Item No. 26, looking into the future. You said that's
continued and Mr. Rountree's not participating and it just makes sense to have three of
us to discuss these items.
Rountree: That's a good point.
Borton: I agree with continuing. I don't -- if the motion maker would move to continue it
to April 18th.
Rountree: The motion maker is agreeable to the 18th.
Borton: Second agrees.
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De Weerd: Okay. Is there anything further? I guess, Mr. Unger, if there is any way --
and I know it's not part of their motion, but if there is any way that you can get with
Sadie Creek to show the circulation points. Staff, if you could help facilitate that at all, if
that's possible, I think that would be helpful for Council. And, Mr. Nary, I don't know if
that is some conflicting thing with two projects or not, but --
Nary: You can do that.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree, would you consider putting that as part of your motion?
Wardle: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: I didn't ask you. But you are the second, so --
Rountree: Joe's the second.
De Weerd: Oh, Joe is the second.
Wardle: I just would like to point out -- we have got one other item that may affect our
next --
De Weerd: That's true. But we still want to know how they would work with --
Wardle: Sure. I certainly agree.
De Weerd: Would you consider adding that or I can just ask staff as a side note.
Rountree: I can add that to the motion as it relates to the fence issue.
De Weerd: Does second agree?
Borton: I'll agree. I had -- I think Mr. Wardle's right, I think that we might send them out
to have a discussion where they don't know, really, what they are discussing with regard
to circulation, but -- it will be frustrating at worst, perhaps, for the applicant.
De Weerd: Until you know if the variance is--
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I didn't include in mine any circulation. I just said related to
the fence issue.
Wardle: Oh.
De Weerd: Okay.
Borton: Second agrees. I'm sorry.
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Meridian City Council
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De Weerd: Okay. But I would ask staff to help facilitate that, depending on what
happens with the item. Okay. There is a motion and specifics on what to bring back.
All those in favor say aye. Any opposed?
Bird: Nay.
De Weerd: Okay.
Bird: Can I explain it?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: I'd like to have about five minutes.
De Weerd: Okay.
Bird: It seems like -- it seems like we are getting to the point where we want to spend
the developer's dollars for him. What Mr. Rountree likes is -- Mr. Wardle likes as
commercial I think -- I don't like residential looking commercial. I like commercial to look
commercial and residential to look residential. I do agree with Mr. Rountree on the four-
plexes and stuff, just painting them different. If I got to be on the design and review,
everything would be brick.
Rountree: And glass.
Bird: And glass. So, I -- that's why I can't -- I figured that we keep passing these and
every once in awhile we decide we want to be on the design and review and I think as a
Council we need to decide whether we need a design and review and it shouldn't be us.
That's my reasons for nay.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Bird. And it will certainly make it easier for the
development community, the neighbors, and staff when we get design standards set
that can help spell those out. So, I appreciate your comments. Okay. We have
continued Items 21 through 25 to April 18th.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE NAY.
Item 26:
Public Hearing: V AR 05-023 Request for a Variance to allow access to a
state highway for Bienville Sauare Subdivision by Red Cliff
Development, LLC - 2935 North Eagle Road:
De Weerd: We do have a Public Hearing on Item 26 for VAR 05-023. I will open this
Public Hearing with a question for Mr. Nary. Is it appropriate to discuss this before there
is an annexation decision?
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Meridian City Council
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Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this is the part where I always get to be
the good guy or the bad guy. No, it would not be appropriate to hear this. I know these
folks have sat here all night, but because this property isn't annexed yet there isn't
anything to consider a variance for. The circumstances of this, too, just to also make it
clear, I know during the course of the testimony for the prior project there were
occasional references to the access to Eagle Road. The reason I didn't interject is
because the access point also has a relationship to the plat that's in front of you and so
it does have some minor relevance to what you were having to consider. If people have
an objection or a comment of some sort in regards to the variance access, they will
need to testify specifically on this particular item. But, no, I would recommend that the
Council continue this matter to probably your April 18th meeting would be the most
appropriate to hear it after you have made a decision on whether to annex the project
and I think Madam Mayor has pointed that out very accurately that the state of this
particular project, until this variance is granted our ordinance does not allow access to,
so that's what the Council has to consider in that format. But until it's annexed, there is
no variance that's necessary. So, you would have to set this over.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, with that note from our attorney, do I have a motion to
continue?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I move we continue Item 26, VAR 06-023, to April 18th.
De Weerd: I need a second.
Wardle: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. The motion is to continue Item 26 to April 18th. All those in favor say
aye. Okay. Any opposed? Okay. All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 27:
Ordinance No. 06-1218 : AZ 05-055 Request for Annexation
and Zoning of 35.33 acres from RUT to R-8 zone for Ambercreek
Subdivision by Dyver Development, LLC - North Meridian Road and
West McMillan Road:
Item 28:
Ordinance No. 06-1219 : RZ 05-022 Request for a Rezone of
3.36 acres from R-8 to L-O for Church of the Holy Nativity by Church of
the Holy Nativity - 828 West Cherry Lane:
Item 29:
Ordinance No. 06-1220 : AZ 05-053 Request for Annexation
and Zoning of 5.87 acres from RUT to R-8 zone for Windham Place
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