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HomeMy WebLinkAboutFebruary 7, 2006 C/C Minutes \. ". Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 64 of 90 ,.¡ Rountree: I have none. De Wee rd. Okay. Thank you so much. Pratt: Thank you. De Weerd: Okay. This is a Public Hearing. Is there anyone who would like to provide testimony on this application? Okay. Council? Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Seeing no further testimony, I move that we close the Public Hearing for Item 15. Bird: Second. De Weerd: Okay. Motion to close the Public Hearing on Item 15. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. De Weerd: Any discussion? If not, I would entertain a motion. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I move that we approve the rezone request for Item 15, RZ 05-020. Bird: Second. De Weerd: Okay. Motion to approve Item 15. If there is no discussion, Mr. Berg, will you call roll. Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Wardle, yea; Borton, yea. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 16: Public Hearing: AZ 05-056 Request for Annexation and Zoning of 6.08 acres from RUT to TN-R and 4.07 acres from RUT to C-C zone for Harks Canyon Creek Subdivision by JBS Enterprises, LLC - 1845 West Franklin Road: ~ Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 65 of 90 Item 17: Public Hearing: PP 05-058 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 29 residential lots, 7 commercial lots and 7 common lots on 10.15 acres in proposed TN-R and C-C zones for Harks Canyon Creek Subdivision JBS Enterprises, LLC - 1845 West Franklin Road: . Item 18: Public Hearing: CUP 05-051 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a mixed-use development within 300' of a residence for Harks Canyon Creek Subdivision JBS Enterprises, LLC -1845 West Franklin Road: De Weerd: Thank you. Items 16, 17, and 18 are Public Hearings on AZ 05-056, PP 05- 058, and CUP 05-051. I will open these three public hearings with staff comments. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this is the Harks Canyon Creek project. This is the requested two mile square vicinity map. We did a trial run today, so I'm looking for comments on this in addition to the actual application, if you would. But the project is located right here and we have the railroad tracks. There is Franklin Road. Ten Mile. Interstate. Meridian Road. De Weerd: Anna, I think it would really help if the star was blinking. Canning: One of the things I did talk to her about was I don't think we actually need the zone names on there, if we kept the color on I think that would be sufficient for you. But that was -- we can make the star bigger. I don't know if I can teach her how to animate them, though, but I could try. Bird: I kind of like it. De Weerd: They like the L-O. Rountree: I like it, because I can't distinguish the colors. Canning: Okay. So, leave the names on there? De Weerd: Some are color blind. Canning: Okay. Rountree: For some of us color blind folks. Canning: This is moving in towards the site. Here, again, is Franklin, Linder. Here is Harks Corner. And, then, this is the property -- subject property. The proposed development -- that one doesn't read very well. I'm going to go down to the conceptual plan. This one is a little squished, but at least it reads a little better. The applicant is seeking a C-C zone, community business district, on the north part of the property and, then, they are -- and that would be six acres of area. And, then, a traditional neighborhood residential for four acres of the site. And they have submitted a ~ Meridian City Council February 7,2006 Page 66 of 90 preliminary plat. Are requesting 29 single family residential lots and these are all single family residential. Some of them are attached. They are attached as you can see there. And there is seven commercial lots on the north property. North of the property. Or side. And, then, also coming down here. And, then, they have also submitted a C-U for a mixed use development within 300 feet of residential. The gross residential density, if you just look at that portion of the property, is 9.84 units per acre and that's for the 2.94 acres that they are currently showing. So, that's just this area. If you go out to the full build out on the concept plan, which includes this -- a large amount of open space, it drops -- or it goes up. They are proposing 79 units for future development on - - for a gross density of 13 dwelling units per acre. So, the application -- and I better go back up. Right now they are just proposing to plat and develop the northern portion of the property with single family homes and the commercial. They are leaving the southern portion of the property in one large lot to be developed later. The concept plan for that, however, is what you see here. Okay. The applicant has proposed a traditional neighborhood residential district. Right now they are no standards in the UDC. They say that they are -- those that are approved by Council. So, if you look at pages four and five of your staff report, that lists out specifically what standards they are looking for for part of their traditional neighborhood residential development. Now, they got these standards from us. This is what we had proposed taking forward to the Planning and Zoning Commission. So, if you go with the standards they had proposed, they will be consistent with what you will see coming up to you from Planning and Zoning in about a month. And I can -- I have those, but we can go through those in more detail if the Council would like. I will continue with my presentation and, then, go back to those if that's the Council's desire and Mayor. Okay. I do have some elevations and I'll let the applicant go through these in more detail. The Commission has recommended approval at their January 5th, 2006, hearing. Jane Suggs testified in favor of the application. No one spoke in opposition or commented. Key issues of the discussion were the location of the site in relation to industrial uses on Franklin Road and you can see them just to the north there. The Lot 19, Block 1, which is the large open lot south of the site, which would be for future development and they also talked about Lot 5, Block 1, to be reconfigured. Lot 5, Block 1 is kind of this -- where the private streets and the service drives currently sit, is my understanding. So, there was some discussion about that. The key Commission changes to Public Works condition 2.15 to read: All development improvements for each phase of this development, including, but not limited to, sewer, fencing, micropaths, pressurized irrigation, and landscaping, shall be installed and approved prior to obtaining certificates of occupancy. And, then, just a scrivener's correction that Lot 21 should have been Lot 22 on condition -- planning condition 1.11. As of this afternoon the applicant still had some concerns for the requirement for a private street at a minimum coming down into this area. I think we have clarified that and so that is no longer an outstanding issue. And you do have Findings before you tonight. So, with that I will answer any questions you may have. De Weerd: Council, any questions? Bird: Madam Mayor, I do have a question. Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 67 of 90 De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Bird. Bird: Anna, on our TN-R standards what's the road width? I put my computer away too soon or I wouldn't be asking these. Canning: The -- Madam Mayor, Council member Bird, it would probably be better for the applicant to address exactly what they are proposing in this development. Bird: But you said they are standards. What is our standards on page four and five? Canning: The standards are consistent with our setback standards. I don't know if they went with the street standards at this point. The street standards that are being proposed to you as part of Comprehensive Plan -- or as part of the text amendment are -- would allow parking on both sides with a 33 foot right of way -- 29 foot right of way if they have a parking pad in the back. But I'm not sure that that's what this applicant is proposing. I can pull the site plan -- or preliminary plat if I can find one. Bird: Yeah. And I'm -- De Weerd: We can ask the applicant. Canning: Okay. Thank you. Bird: I can -- I have no problem asking the applicant what the deal was, but-- Canning: It isn't -- the street width is not listed in the list of standards on page four and five. Bird: Okay. De Weerd: Okay. Would the applicant like to come forward? At least you know already what a question is. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record. Suggs: My name is Jane Suggs, 200 Louisa Street in Boise, Idaho. De Weerd: Thank you. Suggs: And I'm very excited to be here to talk about Harks Canyon Creek. I'm going to be a little brief, because it's late, but I do want to talk a little bit about this, because this is the first opportunity I have had to work through the traditional neighborhood residential process. And let me say right up it was a process only because it was new to us and it is something that requires a lot of staff attention, too, so I was glad to see that you might be working with Anna on helping her get the staff necessary, because this is one of those processes that you actual have to have a planner to help you work through it, since there are some standards that weren't set. So, we really like that. We -" Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 68 of 90 really like the opportunity to do something new and creative, but it does take a lot more interaction between the staff and the developer and developer's applicant to make sure we are doing the right thing. De Weerd: Remind us to increase our fees. Suggs: Okay. Okay. Larry's going to kill me now. The developers -- I just want to tell you the developers of this project aren't able to be here tonight, they are both out of town. Larry Van Hess is a local developer, he's been developing around the valley for many years and his partner is David Wilson and David is a premier residential developer out of Sun Valley and also just last year was the nationwide president of the National Association of Home Builders, so his excuse is he's probably still lobbying someplace for home building. So, they both bring some -- a lot of experience and a lot of energy to this mixed use development. Anna did a good job of outlining the details of the project and we are in agreement with all the conditions of approval. So, really, sit back and relax a little bit, because I'm just going to tell you a little bit about the project. We are going with a traditional -- well, the C-C zone for the commercial portions of the site, but we did see that with the connected housing and the limited setbacks that we were hoping to kind of make sort of a more I guess combined use of the land, instead of segregating the uses that we really wanted to see the residences and the commercial office areas kind of working together and you can see that as we pull the commercial area here along the frontage and that is kind of in -- kind of reaction to the fact that this is industrial land and wasn't really appropriate to put residences right up there on Franklin Road, a busy street with some -- not the most attractive residential -- industrial buildings across the street. So, we did put the commercial uses here, but we brought the commercial uses down this way, too. This is a little pond that's already existing and it's next to some -- one of the buildings over here at Harks Corner. We want to make sure that we keep that open for both the uses of the offices and the residences, so one of the things we got planned here -- and you will see in our conceptual plan was a building located here and here with a corridor open here that would be sort of a plaza and lets everybody kind of enjoy that amenity that's already there on the property, both from the homes and the businesses. Our concept was designed by Sherry McKibben at McKibben Cooper Architects. Let's see. The residential uses I think though they are separated, you will see that by the architecture of those elevations that they are similar in their design. Peaked roofs. Four sided architecture on the commercial areas here. One or two story buildings. Two story townhomes connected with garages and they are all alley loaded. Here is an alley here and here and here and you will see one of the things that will be coming back with the staff is some alternative compliance with the landscape requirements that still require a substantial buffer between the uses, but we think with the alternative compliance, using walls and landscaping, we can make that a little bit smaller, again, with the idea of bringing the living spaces and the work spaces a little closer together in this kind of traditional neighborhood residential design. The developers met with the Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District and they have agreed to allow us to provide this park-like improvement along Ten Mile Creek. Not only is there about a 60 foot area here of Ten Mile Creek that's right of way, there is another 60 foot lot that was adjacent and that was owned by the Nampa-Meridian and we have met with Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 69 of 90 them and they said as long as we provide them some access to their creek they don't mind at all that we are going in and making that into a park-like area, which we think will be a real amenity for the city, including a pathway along that area that will tie into -- along here tie into the property. There is already a little bridge across here. We are planning to improve that bridge with the cooperation of Nampa-Meridian Irrigation. We are still working making sure that we can do that. Right now it's an old rickety bridge and it doesn't go anywhere. This subdivision down here blocks the access, because it really didn't have anyplace to go into a pasture that there are horses. We talked to them and during the neighborhood meeting we suggested that when we have some eyeballs down there to basically keep that area safe, we would open up that bridge and they would open up their access here. There is a -- there are two lots on either side of the bridge and one guy is using it as his yard, but he knows that there is a corridor there. So, that will provide an access actually over the Ten Mile Creek, which we think is pretty exciting, especially since there are -- those houses are probably not considered the most family friendly, we think that there might be some families there with children that might want to walk to the school that's to the south and certainly the people in the neighborhood should love to use this as access to get up into this commercial area without having to get on the streets and I think that's what your connectivity is all about. Let's see. The streets. I was looking at my ACHD staff report to make sure. I believe what we have are just standard 36 foot wide streets. What we have tried to do is provide some of the parking pockets here, so we bulb out right here and here. That's a little challenging, because we are trying to make sure that we protect the cars, but you still have to provide enough width between the bulb outs to allow the emergency vehicles to get through. So, I don't think we are going anything minimal on those. I think at the entries we were trying to go with a minimal street width and a minimal right of way, but I believe ACHD pulled us back on that and told us we were going to have to put in the standard 36 feet street in there, too. Bird: What about your alleys, ma'am? Suggs: I'm sorry? Bird: Width of your alleys. Suggs: Twenty. Bird: Twenty. Suggs: Twenty. We understand that ACHD has -- we just talked to them about another project recently and they are looking like they may go to 16 foot alleys with 16 paved, but that just means your setback on the garages have to be more, but we are planning for the 20 foot alley. De Weerd: And that's 20 foot fully paved? Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 70 of 90 Suggs: Twenty foot with 16 -- at least 16 paved. And in this case we may offset it a little bit, so that we have someplace to have some landscaping back here along the -- away from the -- from the garages. Now, that, again, just means that we have to make sure that we have enough backup space to meet your standards for backup and I think it's 23 feet. If you look in your parking standards for -- for straight-in parking I think your aisle width is 23. Is that right? I'm not sure. Canning: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, we require a 20-by-20 parking pad. Drive aisles are for -- parking spaces are 19 with the 25 foot backup. Suggs: Okay. Twenty-five foot backup. Canning: Yeah. Suggs: Okay. Canning: And, Jane, in case you forget, can you explain the elevations. I wasn't sure which ones were which. Suggs: Oh, yeah. De Weerd: Before you change to the elevations, just a final question. In the alleyways you have a short one there on the west side. Suggs: Here? De Weerd: Yeah. How does that end? If you're a garbage truck, do you have to back out of that or -- Suggs: Yes. They are short -- they are less than 150 feet. Same with most of the larger vehicles, as long as it's 150 feet and typically not requiring any kind of turnaround. De Weerd: Are you going to have a dumpster or-- Suggs: Since those are individually owned homes, probably just regular garbage collection there. And if it becomes an issue, it seems like we should be able to work something out. I'd hate to have to put in extra pavement just to -- instead of rolling garbage cans down to the end of the street, which I think is doable, instead of trying to put a turnaround or connect the pavement there, if that's an issue. De Weerd: Anna, was that dealt with at pre-app or-- Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 71 of 90 Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, they will have to get a sign off from SSC at some point. I admit we hadn't thought of this issue. If it does become a concern, about the only thing they could do is provide a pad -- a concrete pad near the public street, so that they -- and those four property owners would need to roll their garbage cans over to that concrete pad for SSC to pick it up. And we have done that on where you have common driveways, SSC will not go up them, so we do require them to roll them out. And similar to this one, they would be about a hundred -- no more than 150 feet. So, it's very similar to those common drives, but -- and that's the solution we have found thus far with SSC on those. De Weerd: It would seem that that's probably something that will have to be done in this area. They do this every week. I don't think they want to back out of those things every week. Suggs: I think the solution of rolling your garbage someplace is appropriate in this case. Bird: Before we go to the elevations, too, Madam Mayor, may I ask another question? What is your setbacks to the -- to the building from the property line on the alley? Suggs: I'm understanding from Anna that she requires a 20 foot set -- parking pad on the garages from the alley; is that right, Anna? Canning: Well, you have proposed -- Suggs: I have proposed much less than that as the minimum, but it looks like that's to meet -- Canning: The minimum rear setback to alley access properties without a parking pad is five feet. With a parking pad is 20 feet, so -- up to the garage. Suggs: I had five feet. So, I had alleys with the five feet and the garage. Those would be those without a parking pad and I'm sure that we show something minimal on these, because of the -- Bird: But let me ask you a question. On something like that, in the first place, 20 feet don't even park a standard pickup and probably a standard size car. Now, my little Tracker could park on 20 feet no problem at all. Five feet. But -- and if you're five feet to the garage and only got five feet there, we all know that people are going to come in there and maybe one bay of their garage is filled up with stuff and they park their rig outside. Well, you're parking out in the alleyway. What if you need to get down there with an emergency vehicle? Suggs: Well -- okay. Councilmember Bird, the emergency vehicles use the city streets just like they do for everybody, so -- but we would restrict no parking in the alley and that would have to be something that would be monitored by the homeowners Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 72 of 90 association. That would be one for this property. So, again, I don't think -- I think that's only a problem if you don't monitor it. People with large pickup trucks and lots of toys won't buy here. I mean I'm running into that. All my projects we were asking for this density and to get this density you're going to put in homes and you're not going to put in homes with room for toys. This is -- when people have toys and they want to fill up their garages, they go -- have to rent a space and that's just the reality of trying to get the density in. Bird: Who are you going to rent to? Or sell to? Young people? Suggs: I'm sorry? Bird: Young people? Old people? Suggs: Some young people. Some empty nesters. We actually did the market study. One of the reasons this is a concept plan down here is that we had Sam Langston and Langston and Associates do a market study on the condominiums and found out at the price point we were charging we probably couldn't build those and market those. So, that's why we are waiting now to see what the market would bear and if we find out that these are a popular item, we could come in and try to do another row of that, bring a street around and, then, use the alley for both sides that you typically see on alley- loaded product. I'm thinking young people and I'm also thinking some empty nesters, because of the maintenance. We intend to have some high level of maintenance to the homeowners association. Bird: And they are the majority of the people that got the toys. They got the four wheelers and snowmobiles and stuff like that. Suggs: I don't know what to say, other than we are marketing to that group of people, so -- Bird: No. I know. But we got to look out for what's down the road. You say -- you say there isn't going to be emergency vehicles coming down there, but if there is a -- I would say the majority of your fires start in the garage and if you're going to -- you're going to come down -- our fire trucks are going to come down there. Suggs: Well -- and we will prohibit parking in the alleys. Bird: Okay. Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I should note that it's not clear on this one -- the five foot setback with the parking pad should be -- there shouldn't be anything between five feet and 20 feet and that's critical that we found in another one. Seven feet, eight feet, are very attractive for people to try and park in and we want to -- to avoid that, so that they either bring the building way up, so that there is no question about you shouldn't be parking here, or they move it back a full 20 feet and our parking Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 73 of 90 stall requirements are 19 feet. So, the attempt -- the idea there was to accommodate a car similar to what we do in our parking stalls. I'm jumping on a little bit more for Ms. Suggs than I usually would, because I'm -- she's proposing standards that were consistent with what we are bringing forward in the text amendment, so I -- that's why I'm not necessarily jumping in for her. I know you have a lot of concerns with these and I'm just trying to explain a little bit more on where these standards came from. Suggs: If there needs to be a condition added, we would take that, but -- to minimize that opportunity for parking, just like Anna said. Borton: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes. Mr. Borton. Borton: I wish that were possible. I guess from my perspective -- and I have tried to enforce these things as an attorney for homeowners associations and they are neat, but you really can't do it, unfortunately, and what I worry about -- and I'm new at this, but what I worry about is you can't un-ring that bell and once you get these types of 15 foot, you know, with four foot -- two feet on each side where people will park their cars and put rocks and plant trees and put garbage cans and kick bikes, et cetera, you can't enforce these. And homeowners associations can't enforce these. It's passed the stage to where compliance can enforce it. In particular, one of the things that I didn't see until it was brought up here was this alley here, which is about 150 feet -- I think Councilman Bird made reference to safety services. I don't know how a fire truck -- if you have got a situation right there where a couple of trucks are parked on the side, which there will be, because your garage is filled with all your other stuff and people don't park cars in garages anymore it seems like. These are all problems that come after the fact. You got a fire truck that's stopped right here, can't get these people with ladders and hoses over here and there is no other access, other than to watch -- maybe I'm wrong. I know Chief Anderson is here and he might be able to correct me, but that seems to be unique concern right there, because this guy or girl, whoever buys this house, is on an island, unbeknownst to them when they purchase it. Suggs: All aspects of that building are within 150 feet of a public right of way, which is the standard. A fire truck parks here and fights a fire -- his hoses can go 150 feet. The same here. So, all you would ask for is that along the public street here or here, that you could park someplace and get your hoses 150 feet around to the other side of the building. So, I think we have met that and that's one of the things we looked at really closely is making sure that we had some way to get to those. So, you don't have to be in front and behind a home, you don't typically get the access behind a home. You just - - if you have to fight a fire behind a regular home, you have to park in the right of way, but you have to get your hoses 150 feet, no more than that around. You could even fight it from here if they felt like that they needed some more access in the parking lot. Of course, there would be possibly cars there, but I mean this provides even additional access, I believe, than you would get, possibly, in just a regular single family Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 74 of 90 neighborhood when you look at the access you have on a public street here and here. I mean that's -- De Weerd: Do you want to go over, Jane, where the roads are, your parking and alleys, if you will -- Suggs: Public street here. Public street coming through here. And a public street stub to here. That's all publicly maintained streets. Alleys behind the homes here. An alley that comes across here. This is -- will be the stub of a private street, but it will be stubbed to here, because this area is not yet developed. There will be an alley off of this area here and an alley between the two and another private street here. And, then, service over here. We show a little stub of an alley over here, less than 150 feet. Again, that's the backup for a turnaround for a fire truck and also to provide that access to them, so that if they wanted to pull in here and fight the fire here and here, in each case we think -- and I'd love it if the fire chief could make sure that he's happy with that. But I think that's something certainly before we build the buildings we have to get sign off from him. Bird: On the private -- excuse me, Madam Mayor. De Weerd: Yes. Bird: On the private streets there, what are the widths of them? Suggs: They typically -- I'm thinking -- I haven't looked at that real closely. The streets generally have to be 24 or 26 feet wide, so they are wide enough for public vehicles, for fire protection vehicles. Bird: What about parking? Suggs: Parking on the private street? Bird: Yeah. Suggs: We would not be providing any parking on the private street. But, again, we don't have -- Bird: They can't park up along the sides of it? Suggs: We would not propose that. It would have a sign, so there would not be parking on the 24 foot street. Bird: Okay. Rountree: Madam Mayor? Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 75 of 90 De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: This is an application for two distinct zones and I'd like the applicant to differentiate the zones in their concept plan. Suggs: Councilmember Rountree, this -- the commercial zone is here. It's these buildings. It comes all the way down to here and the residential zone comes all the way down this way and comes back up here. We are asking for the residential zone in all of this area. Again, we are not platting this lower portion. This is just added for a concept plan. We were asked if we were going to get that zoned as residential with the TN-R and also get annexed, that we needed to show a conceptual plan for that. Rountree: So, in your conceptual plan -- excuse me, Mayor. De Weerd: Uh-huh. Rountree: In the conceptual that lower lot, whatever those roof lines are, are multi- family type dwellings or-- Suggs: We-- Rountree: -- just space fillers? Suggs: Councilmember Rountree, we had actually planned to submit this, but before we submitted our application we did do the market study and found out that this wasn't marketable. This was a multi-story condominium unit. There would be one on the bottom and one condominium unit and, then, parking spaces -- one parking space for each unit and, then, two more floors of flats, condominium flats, a total of five units with five covered parking spaces in each units -- well, in this one and, then, ten in these, so -- but we found out that we were looking at a higher end product and that wasn't marketable right now, so -- but, again, we wanted to show you what was the potential for that area, too. Rountree: Thank you. Borton: Madam Mayor? . De Weerd: Mr. Borton. Borton: Anna, the TN-R road width, is it 24 or is it less? Canning: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, the private street standard is not a TN-R standard. It's universal. It's largely anticipated to serve commercial developments where there is a need for addressing. The fire department was -- had expressed concerns over some of our larger commercial and industrial projects where they just have internal service drives, as they needed some addressing potential. So, Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 76 of 90 all I did was say, okay, we will take the service drive, which is a 25 foot wide drive aisle and it can have parking on both sides and commercial we ask for a sidewalk on one side. But the idea was to be able to name those and create a system of those, so that people knew where to get to in the event of a particular medical emergency. They work also very well for the multi-family developments. So, that's why you're seeing it in the multi-family development here and not in the rest of it. So, it's the 25 foot drive aisle. Sometimes, depending on the height of the structures it could be larger. If it's not providing parking, it can go down a little bit to 24, so -- Borton: Okay. Suggs: Actually, we want to go with this elevation again. These were the -- done by Sherry McKibben. This is looking at one of the condominiums that we probably wouldn't build. This would be the five condominiums. This would be the front entry of that. But we are still hoping that as the market improves that we might be able to actually build that. That would be the condos. This is the commercial building along Franklin. She showed this as one or two stories. Again, we are looking at sort of the peak roofs and the gables, kind of trying, once again, to give it something that makes it fit in with the residential area to not flat box with houses behind it. And this is the townhomes attached. Again, two story. Hopefully, with an idea that we could do a little walk up there. Peak roofs. You know, doing a little bit something different on each one. Mr. Van Hees is talking to -- we toured and he's talked several times with Steve Roth and Steve's been really popular up in Eagle doing some detached product, but says that he was interested. He's actually doing some Garden City attached product and he said he was pretty interested in seeing what he could do down here in this market, too. So, was coming by -- he's come by the site several times to take a look at it. So, that's one builder I know that we would be talking to. And, again, you have the landscape plan that looks like the concept plan, but shows the empty lot. That one. This was -- well, at P&Z meeting there was a little confusion again, because we are not platting this piece right now, but we are kind of asking for the platting on this piece and, then, keeping this lot reserved and you will see this lot come back in. There is nothing we can really do to that lot you won't come back and see a plan. And I will stand for any other questions. De Weerd: Okay. Council, any other questions? Bird: She answered all mine. De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Suggs: Thank you. De Weerd: Okay. Is there any other testimony from the remaining survivors? If you will, please, state your name and address. Rowe: My name is Tom Rowe and I live at 115 South Linder in Meridian. Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 77 of 90 De Weerd: Thank you. Rowe: I own the property to the east of that. I don't have one of those little pointers. Rountree: There should be one on there. Rowe: Oh, is there? Oh, cool. Okay. Right here. I think -- is this the bar right there? I think that's the bar that exists. Anyway, I own this piece right here and it's commercial. I didn't get to the zoning meeting, because I was sick that day and I was going to ask for an access road to the back of this property for future development, which isn't in this plan. They had mentioned that I should put this on the record now, that I would like an access road at the back of this piece of property and not have it just blocked off, sometime during this development, either the second phase or where ever it can fit in. That was my one concern that I wanted to get on the record. The other was last time when the building went up here -- when this building went on -- right now this field is -- has cows on it and the last time I had a lot of trouble with the building between the fences being torn down and the cows getting out and not being concerned with my animals running off. That was a problem. The other problem was the trash coming from the building. My cows keep eating it. It goes over the fence and they eat it, which doesn't really do them a lot of good. Plastic doesn't really digest well. And so I was kind of concerned. I have a nice -- a new fence all the way across here and when the building goes on I would like that fence to stay until something is secure or whatever is agreed upon. I haven't talked to Larry about what he plans on doing there, what kind of fencing is there, I don't have -- I don't have any idea what he's planning on, whether he's going to leave mine there or what. And so I am real concerned about this property line left up there during the construction and after the construction, because of the animals. And I want that to be a concern of the building this time. Last time the fence got tore down, I just got a cow that was running for it. He saw the opening and I happened to be out there and caught him before he got away. I have good fences now and I'd like to keep it that way. Other than that, just my concern for future development on my piece of property. That was my main thing. That's it. Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you so much. Any other testimony? Okay. Mr. Anderson. You even raised your hand. Good job. Anderson: Trying to be polite. Madam Mayor, City Council. I guess I was looking at this a little bit too simplistic, but the issue with this seems to be that we have some proposed text amendment to our Unified Development Code on a TN-R type of neighborhood. We have expressed as a fire department that we have some concerns with some of the alley widths, some of the road widths, some of the setbacks, and those have not been yet addressed by the City Council and according to Anna it doesn't sound like those will be addressed by the City Council for approximately another month. So, it seems premature in this case to be looking at this application and looking at it and approving it based off of the TN-R Unified Development Code that hasn't even been approved by you guys yet. I mean the front part of that is commercial and that looks like that complies with our ordinances, but until you guys decide what that TN-R text is Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 78 of 90 going to look like, this seems premature to me, I guess. Maybe I'm looking at it too simplistic, but those are the issues. De Weerd: Council, any questions for Chief Anderson? Bird: I do. If we were to approve it on the 36 foot and the 20-foot -- I mean we can approve it without -- with our own specifications, because those aren't in the -- we do have the right to do that. Would that be satisfactory? Anderson: Well, I think we'd have to look at all aspects of that. I mean you'd have to look at what are the setbacks on the buildings going to be, what are the alleys going to be, and without redesigning the entire project here tonight, I don't know how you could do that probably here tonight. De Weerd: So, chief, you're saying staff hasn't reviewed this? Anderson: We have reviewed it. We put comments in there about the 33 foot roads and the 20 foot alleys. What is being proposed is this would be built to the proposed text that's coming before you guys in a month in the TN-R and the fire department is opposed to the text that is in that TN-R. We feel like that the access roads, the width, the setbacks, are going to severely hamper and compromise our ability to do our job as a fire department. De Weerd: So, Anna, this is proposal different than what we currently are asking for, so it's just ahead of the TN-R? Canning: Yes, ma'am. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: Well -- and it's stated right there on pages four and five and, then, when Anna looked on four and five they had no conditions of the setbacks or the road widths or anything. Canning: What I stated is that there was no proposal from the applicant on using the reduced street sections that are part of the TN-R, so I couldn't find the street section. But page four and five do detail out the proposed setbacks. Bird: What is the proposed TN-R standards? Now, what is the standards as now, that has not been -- because they haven't -- the ones you're talking about has not been passed by this Council. Canning: Correct. Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 79 of 90 Bird: Now, what is the TN-R standards now? Canning: It says as determined by City Council. Bird: That's right. Borton: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Borton. Borton: Chief Anderson, what's -- so, what's the right number from the department's perspective I guess in these -- the number's not set. We are talking about the alley width, by way of example. What's the number that you suggest to utilize for those back alley lots? Anderson: What the fire department has proposed to that TN-R text and what we would recommend in this is a 20-foot hard surface, either concrete or asphalt, for the alleyways. And we also have proposed in the TN-R text that the houses have a minimum of a 24-foot setback in the rear, which is considerably more than what's being proposed in this development. And we also recommend 33 foot street widths and if we do anything less than that, if it's 29, then, it would be limited to parking on one side. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: But as Mr. -- as Councilman Borton stated with his experience, you can put in everything, CC&Rs, and you can put signs up and everything else that you can only park on one side of the street, but who is going to being enforcing it 24 hours a day, seven days a week? Anderson: Well, that's our concern, too. If we opt for less than a 33 foot road width and we restrict parking to one side of the road, then, it's going to become a police issue or a code enforcement issue to go through these neighborhoods and make sure that people aren't parking on the other side of the road. You can put signs up, but in reality we know that frequently that gets violated. De Weerd: Any other questions? Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Okay. Okay. Jane. Suggs: Jane Suggs. 200 Louisa Street in Boise, representing Harks Canyon Creek Subdivision. When Tom was making some comments I was asking Anna a question. He wanted to talk a little bit about making sure there was some sort of access down Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 80 of 90 here to his property and I'm sure that we can accommodate him with some sort of driveway access to that property at -- especially maybe in this later phase. I think Tom lives in Larry's family home; is that right? Yeah. So, I mean they have been neighbors for quite some time. So, I'm sure that we can do that. And we talked a lot about fences tonight, just making sure that whenever we do any construction in that area that we do make sure that we maintain his fence and we put another fence up, we don't take his fence down in the process, knowing that he has animals there and they have to stay penned. We probably have gotten out a little in front of you on the TN-R, thinking that we wanted to jump in and actually utilize what we think is a great opportunity to provide some really nice housing for folks here in Meridian. We can certainly do 20-foot paved on the alleys, if that's what the fire department wants, because we are going to do 20 feet there, so that's not a problem. We can do a 30-foot street with parking on both sides, 29 with parking on one side. I think, again, I have got to get to the right page in my ACHD staff report, but because that street actually comes in and stubs to another street, they are not going to allow us to do a smaller cross-section that we had planned to do, because that -- we can't determine what the traffic impact would be there, because we are stubbing to another property. So, it looks like we are going to do a 33 or 36 foot street with just the bulb outs, again, making sure that we have at least a 20 foot wide section for emergency vehicles. What I can't do is 24-foot setbacks on these lots from the alley. If that's the hang up, I'd like to wait and we will go through the TN-R standards and we will go through the -- seeing how we want to provide housing that just has alleys and garages, not alleys and extra pavement. So, what we are trying to do is not provide a whole new street system in the back, but it's an access to the garages. Again, trying to minimize the idea that people would turn that into a cut through or a place that they would park that is really supposed to be accessible to a garage. But I think we have pretty much -- I mean the fire chief didn't say anything about having problems getting to the homes to fight fires, so I really think that we have come through and the staff has been very helpful and we have been working in other jurisdictions and this is very similar to the things that we are seeing in Eagle and in Boise. I just finished projects in both of those areas and using something very similar to this with the alley loaded product. Even Ada County, I'm doing a project down on Five Mile now and it's got probably 20 percent of its product has something that looks almost just like this and that's Five Mile and Lake Hazel, so -- Borton: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Borton. Borton: The only reason that it's an extra hot issue for me right now is because I just recently took a ride on the truck and went down some of these alleys and saw the practical affect of some cases 16 foot wide paved back alleys. Did you say you would do 20? Suggs: We could go to 20. Borton: Okay. Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 81 of 90 Suggs: We could go to 20 paved and keep that clear and -- but still like to do the five foot to the garage off of that 20, giving plenty of backup room and we could -- we could go to three feet and you still have backup for 23 feet. Nobody's going to park there. Not in the little place -- not in the little parking area in front of the garage, so -- and we would just have to make sure that we have no parking signs along there and, yes, we would have to patrol that ourselves as a homeowners association and call in support if that didn't work. I think there is a way to do that. I think there is a way to tow people when they park in an alley and they are not supposed to and I think a diligent homeowners association professionally managed could handle that. I know you have got a lot more experience in that than I do. Borton: Maybe not successful. I don't know. Maybe I'm not doing it right. And I just appreciate the fact that you're willing to change that 20 feet and to the extent I was snippy, I apologize. I was not trying to be too feisty on the back alley issue, but that's the reason I asked the question. Suggs: Well -- and we certainly wouldn't let that stop something that I think is a great project and a great opportunity for people to live here and this is kind of something new -- a little something new, but I think something you're going to see all over the valley sooner than later and four feet of pavement is worth it. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: Jane, what -- and you said you're doing in Eagle and Ada County and stuff. What are their requirements on setbacks? Suggs: Most of the time that we do these projects we are doing them through the PUD process, so we are setting our own setbacks. Bird: Yeah. Suggs: And they are very much like this. I had a neighborhood meeting yesterday for the one in Ada County, the one that seems to be out in what at one time was considered a rural area, we are going the five foot setbacks on the alleys, 20 foot alley, and we want that 20-foot, because we want them maintained by ACHD. They have the two standards, 16 and 18 -- I mean 16 and 20. And we are having -- now measuring some of our setbacks from the back of the walk and we are using three to five feet on those. And the only issue we have now is a joint trench, trying to work that out. But, yes, we are going very minimal setbacks. We have got special builders that want to put some really nice -- we have got -- in fact, in that project we also have some homes that are planning on green spaces, like Winding Creek over in Eagle, you will see houses that only service the alleys and they don't have front streets, they just have green spaces that they front on parks. So, everybody fronts on a park and you can see it from Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 82 of 90 a street, but their access and the only access to their homes is through the alley. Or walking down a sidewalk in the green and we have a lot of those planned for Ada County. Bird: And you're still -- even over there where -- you're only having your five foot setbacks? Suggs: Yes. De Weerd: Okay. Anything further, Council? Thank you. Okay. Council, if there is nothing further, I would entertain a motion to close the public hearings on Items 16, 17 and 18. Borton: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Borton. Borton: Move to close the public hearings on Items 16, 17 and 18. Bird: Second. De Weerd: All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. De Weerd: Okay. Any discussion? Okay. Do I have a motion? Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: I just -- she -- Ms. Suggs was very agreeable to doing the setback as the one concern I have is -- and even with a 20-foot hard alley, regardless of what -- and there is no way you can control it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You're going to get a certain amount of parking in there. I have got a real qualm. I think it's a beautiful project, don't get me wrong there, and I think it's something that needs done, but that's - - that concern is in the -- so, to take off, I would make a motion that we approve AZ 05- 056, the request for annexation and zoning of 6.8 acres from RUT to TN-R -- oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Those conditions have to be in this, because we are approving the TN-R -- right? Okay. So, I will have some conditions here. And 4.07 acres with RUT and a C-C zone for Harks Canyon Creek Subdivision by JBS Enterprises, LLC, 1845 West Franklin Road, with conditions of minimum of 33 foot hard asphalt -- or hard road, public roads, 20 foot hard minimum alleyway roads, which was agreed upon and -- and a 20 foot setback in the back alleyway. Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 83 of 90 De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion to approve Item 16. Do I have a second? Okay. I guess the motion dies for lack of a second. Is there another motion that Council would like to try to put us out of our misery? Borton: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Borton. Borton: I move we approve AZ 05-056, request for annexation and zoning from RUT to TN-R with the two conditions -- the first two conditions stated, the 33-foot roadway and the 20-foot alley, both of which I believe were agreed to by the applicant. De Weerd: Okay. I have motion to approve-- Borton: No reference to the 20 foot setback. That wasn't part of the motion. De Weerd: Okay. Do I have a second? Wardle: Second for discussion. De Weerd: Okay. Wardle: If I can ask a clarification of staff. Anna, what setback was referenced in the staff conditions? Canning: I'm double-checking, but I'm sure it was five feet. Alley access properties without a parking pad would be five feet. Wardle: Was that the intention of the maker of the motion? Borton: It is. Canning: Was that a build-to line, sir? Borton: Five feet? Canning: The intent would be to not allow six, seven, eight, nine, ten -- anything less than 20, so that we don't get people tempted to park in there. Borton: Correct. Canning: Okay. De Weerd: Okay. Any discussion? Rountree: Madam Mayor? Meridian City Council February 7, 2006 Page 84 of 90 De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I don't doubt that this proposal is a quality proposal. And certainly the new urbanism is all the rage across the country and we have seen some attempts in Meridian, some of which may not be all that successful. But it's not necessarily the proposal, it's the issue that we haven't yet addressed as a Council, we haven't yet addressed to our staff, what it is our expectations are as far as this designated area, TN-R zoning. We have, obviously, differing opinions amongst our staff, we have certainly different charters and different perspectives. I'll go back to my -- I'm not in that big of a hurry to create hassles for us that this can't wait until we resolve those issues. And even though some of the staff may not like what we end up with at some point in time, at least we don't set a precedent tonight and that might affect what it is we discuss at a point in the future, possibly a month away. So, not necessarily my comments opposing this proposal, but I'm opposing that we take action on this proposal at this point in time for the reasons stated. So, I probably would not vote in favor of the motion. De Weerd: Okay. Is there any further discussion? Okay. Bird: Let's go for it. De Weerd: Mr. Berg. Roll-Call: Bird, nay; Rountree, nay; Wardle, yea; Borton, yea. Berg: It's a tie, Mayor. De Weerd: Why thank you. I feel so important at midnight. I guess my vote is very conflicted, because I agree with this, but I also agree with what Councilman Rountree has said, so I will vote no and make the comment before the next motion is attempted that rather than -- I personally would like to see this continued until after Council has had the discussion on the TN-R and -- MOTION FAILED: TWO AYES. TWO NAYS. MAYOR NAY. Bird: I agree a hundred percent with you, Mayor. I agree with you a hundred percent. De Weerd: And it's just because of what Councilman Rountree has said. You know, the timing probably was not meant that this would come before the hearing and I think that if Council would be amenable to continuing it until you have had a chance to hear and make a decision on the TN-R, I could break ties all night. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.