HomeMy WebLinkAbout2021-11-16 Regular Minutes Item#1.
Meridian City Council November 16, 2021.
A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:10 p.m., Tuesday,
November 16, 2021, by Mayor Robert Simison.
Members Present: Robert Simison, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Treg Bernt, Jessica
Perreault, Brad Hoaglun and Liz Strader.
Also present: Chris Johnson, Bill Nary, Joe Dodson, Kyle Radek, Brian Caldwell, Joe
Bongiorno and Dean Willis.
ROLL-CALL ATTENDANCE
Liz Strader _X_ Joe Borton
_X_ Brad Hoaglun _X_Treg Bernt
X Jessica Perreault _X Luke Cavener
_X_ Mayor Robert E. Simison
Simison: Council, we will call the meeting to order. For the record it is Tuesday,
November 16th, 2021 , at 6:10 p.m. We will begin tonight's regular City Council meeting
with roll call attendance.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Simison: Next item is the Pledge of Allegiance. If you would all, please, rise and join us
in the pledge.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
COMMUNITY INVOCATION
Simison: Next item on the agenda is the community invocation, which tonight will be
delivered by Ben Blakey of Compass Bible Church. If you would all, please, join us in the
community invocation or take this as a moment of silence and reflection.
Blakey: Heavenly Father, we come before you and ask your blessing on this meeting
tonight. We thank you so much for your blessing on our community. We thank you for
your faithfulness day by day, season by season, year by year, to us. We lift up the Mayor
and these Council Members and ask that you would fill them with wisdom and insight to
always do what is best and right. We lift up our community. God your word calls us to
put away anger, clamor, wrath and bitterness and to be tender hearted to one another, to
be kind, forgiving one another. And, God, we just pray that those things would be the
things that characterize our community, God, and we ask that those things would
characterize this meeting tonight as well. We lift it all up to you in Jesus's name, amen.
ADOPTION OF AGENDA
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Simison: Thank you. Next item up is adoption of the agenda.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: This is going to be a long one, so bear with me and I have good people around
me that if I muck it up, which I for sure will, someone is going to say you did it wrong,
Treg. You need to do it this way. So, here we go. Next week's 6:00 o'clock meeting is
going to be, unfortunately, cancelled, because of a lack of a quorum and because of next
week's meeting -- cancellation of next week's meeting this adoption of the agenda is going
to be somewhat lengthier than normal. To start off, Mr. Mayor, I move that we change the
agenda to reflect the following. MDC will withdraw recommendation for Option B, which
is Item 15, so we are going to strike that from the agenda tonight. And going forward we
are going to continue Items 14 and 16 that were originally scheduled for the 23rd to the
30th to a special meeting and -- Mr. Nary, did I do a good job? It's -- it's a miracle. With
that and those changes, Mr. Mayor, I move that we adopt the agenda as amended.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as amended. Is there any
discussion or questions?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Making sure we have got a quorum check for the 30th. I know I'm out of state
that particular day.
Simison: I believe that they quorum checked everyone else while they were here and
they were satisfied to that.
Cavener: Okay.
Simison: Any other questions or comments? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye.
Opposed nay? The ayes have it and the agenda is opted as amended with the other
items as well.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
CONSENT AGENDA [Action Item]
1. Fowler Orthodontics Water Main Easement
2. The Landing Subdivision No. 13 Pedestrian Pathway Easement
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3. Interagency Agreement Between the City of Meridian and Ada County
Highway District (ACHD) for Roadway Construction/Water and Sewer
Improvements for Ten Mile Rd. and Victory Rd. to Overland Rd., ACHD
Project No. 519041
4. Interagency Agreement Between the City of Meridian and Ada County
Highway District (ACHD) for Roadway Construction/Water and Sewer
Improvements for Ten Mile Rd. and Victory Rd. Roundabout, ACHD
Project No. 319038
5. License Agreement For Meridian Police Department Canine Training
at Ada County Weed, Pest and Mosquito Abatement
6. Approve Agreement and Purchase Order 22-0128 to Safebuilt, LLC for
Fiscal Year 2022 Plan Review Services in the Not-to-Exceed Amount
of $998,950.00 and Authorize Procurement Manager to Sign
7. Task Order 11084.a to Mountain Waterworks for Well 26 Water
Treatment Design for the Not-to-Exceed Amount of $310,801.00
Simison: Next item up is the Consent Agenda.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we approve the Consent Agenda, for the Mayor to sign and for the
Clerk to attest.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. Is there any
discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay The ayes have it and
the Consent Agenda is agreed to.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
ITEMS MOVED FROM THE CONSENT AGENDA
Simison: There were no items removed from the Consent Agenda.
PUBLIC FORUM — Future Meeting Topics
Simison: So, Mr. Clerk, do we have anyone signed up under the public forum?
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, the only sign up was actually for a later project.
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PROCLAMATIONS [Action Item]
8. National Apprenticeship Week
Simison: Okay. Then we will bypass that and, then, we will go ahead and move on to
Item 8, which is a proclamation for National Apprenticeship Week. If I could if -- they are
here -- if Maureen and Jeffrey could join me at the podium for the reading of the
proclamation that would be great. Council and the public, we are here tonight to read a
proclamation for National Apprenticeship Week. So, I'm -- I know two of the three people
that are up here. I don't necessarily know the third, but we have Maureen O'Toole, the
vice-president for Youth Appreciation -- Youth Apprenticeship Program at the Idaho
Business for Education and Jeffrey Bacon, the federal project manager of the Workforce
Development Council, and who else is joining us? Okay. I know Gina Robison from the
Idaho Department of Labor is also here with us. So, we are going to read a proclamation
and, then, ask you all just to make a few remarks about the importance of this week and
-- and we also do have the chair of the West Ada board here, so apprenticeship can
always be important for them as well, so -- so, whereas National Apprenticeship Week is
celebrating its seventh anniversary of raising awareness of the vital role registered
apprenticeships provide in creating opportunities by allowing apprentices to earn while
they learn and preparing a pathway to well paying careers in Meridian and across the
nation and whereas registered apprenticeship programs enable employers to develop
and train their future workforce while offering career seekers affordable paths to secure
high paying jobs and whereas Meridian recognizes the role of registered apprenticeship
in expanding opportunities in our workforce are all qualified individuals who wish to
contribute to America's industries and whereas registered apprenticeship provides a one
stop shop to engage and connect labor, business, and education partners with
apprenticeships and industry specific resources and whereas as a proven and industry
driven training model registered apprenticeship provides a critical talent pipeline that can
train and build up our workforce to address the needs of our country. Therefore, I, Mayor
Robert E. Simpson, hereby proclaim November 15th through 21st, 2021, as National
Apprenticeship Week in the City of Meridian and urge the residents of our community and
communities across the country to recognize the value of and support apprenticeships
during this week and throughout the year. Dated the 16th of day of November 2021. So,
thank you for being here and allowing us to do this. I think that at this point in time with
where we are as a country and our needs in the labor market it is probably more
appropriate than any other point in time in our nation's history. So, thank you for being
here and I will allow you to say a few words.
O'Toole: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Councilmen. So, we are part of a group
effort across the state of Idaho to connect men and women to good paying jobs and
careers right here in Idaho. Let's stick to exporting potatoes and keep talent right here in
the state. So, we are working across the state to create apprenticeships across
occupations and industries. So, this is my partner from the Department of Labor. This is
my partner from the workforce development. And we gave a presentation today. We are
talking to veterans about this opportunity. We are talking to youth. You just have to be
16 to be an apprentice. So, over the last year we placed 200 more apprentices in local
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jobs this year than the year before, because employers are starting to figure out that if
you want to get talent you got to keep what you have, so --
Robison: And that's 16 to any age you can be an apprentice and you can use it to reinvent
your career and start something new.
DEPARTMENT / COMMISSION REPORTS [Action Item]
9. Public Works: Fiscal Year 2022 Budget Amendment in the Amount of
$873,975.00 for Well 18 Water Treatment
Simison: All right. Next item on the agenda is the Department/Commission Reports and
I will -- first up is Public Works Fiscal Year 2020 Budget Amendment in the amount of
873,975 dollars for Well 18. Kyle, you are going to do this? Okay.
Radek: Yes, Mr. Mayor, Council Members. This is a budget amendment for Well 18
treatment facility. As you all are aware, our treatment facilities are intended to remove
problematic constituents from the water, iron, magnesium, and ammonia generally and
that's what this one is intended to do. We originally budgeted for this -- this construction
contract a year and a half ago and we did not anticipate the drastic change in costs. This
is very similar to Well 17 budget amendment where we -- we had to get an extra 500,000
dollars to complete that. The treatment facility projects largely have not changed. They
have the same components in them. Haven't gold plated anything. They are intended to
function safely and for a long time and efficiently to benefit the -- the residents of the city
and this was bid out in August. We got one bidder. It was 2.1 million dollars and since
we only got one bidder we decided the best thing to do was to -- well, we actually
contacted some of the contractors we expected to bid on it and there were a lot of other
projects that they were interested in that were bigger than ours and so we wanted to get
more competition on the bid and we bid it out again. We had five bidders. The low bidder
was the same bidder, but their price came down almost 250,000 dollars. So, we believe
we have done the -- the appropriate steps to try to -- try to get a good bid on it and move
forward on the project. The project is in its third year. The -- the iron and manganese
removal equipment has been procured and it will be delivered and with this budget
amendment we will be able to start on the construction and that filter tank and equipment
will have a place to live. So, with that I will stand for any questions. We are asking for
approval of the Well 18 Water Treatment Budget Amendment for 873,975 dollars and
authorizing the Mayor to sign.
Simison: Thank you, Kyle. Council, any questions for Kyle?
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I would move approval of a fiscal year 2022 budget amendment for Public
Works in the amount of 873,975 dollars for Well 18 water treatment.
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Bernt: Mr. Mayor, was at 873?
Hoaglun: Eight hundred seventy-three thousand nine hundred seventy-five.
Simison: Do I have a second?
Borton: Second.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve the budget amendment in the amount
of 873,975 dollars. Is there any discussion?
Borton: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Borton.
Borton: Kyle, I appreciate the efforts -- little extra efforts to go out rebid, ensure that the
pricing is appropriate. We know it's difficult, but those extra efforts save taxpayer money
and you did a good job. So, thanks for that.
Simison: Any other questions or comments? If not, Clerk will call the roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Bernt, yea; Perreault, yea; Hoaglun, yea; Strader,
yea.
Simison: All ayes. Motion carries and the amendment is agreed to.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
10. Construction Contract Between the City of Meridian and Lacy
Mechanical, Inc. for Public Works Construction of Well 18 Water
Treatment Facility Project for the Not-To-Exceed Amount of
$1,883,430.00 and Authorize Procurement Manager to Sign Contract
and Associated Purchase Order
Simison: Next item up is Item 10, a construction contract between the City of Meridian
and Lacy Mechanical for the construction of Well 18 water treatment facility. Did I see Mr.
-- is Mr. Watts in the room?
Watts: Mr. Mayor, Council Members, yes, as Kyle has stated, we had to go back out to
bid for this, so we contacted the contractors. Our neighboring city to the south had a very
large project, it was keeping contractors from bidding until they found out if they won that
bid or not, even the subs were not giving the generals any information. So, once that job
bid we went back out again, contacted the contractors and they agreed to put a bid in with
us and as Kyle said, we saved almost 250,000 dollars by going back out. We ended up
getting five bids on the project, which was fantastic in this market. So, we were pretty
happy. With that just ask for approval of the agreement.
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Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? If not a motion.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I move approval of the construction contract between the City of Meridian and
Lacy Mechanical, Inc., for Public Works construction of Well 18 water treatment facility
project for the not-to-exceed amount of 1,883,430 dollars and authorize the procurement
manager to sign contract and associated purchase order.
Strader: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to --would say approve that long motion. Is there
any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have
it and the item is agreed to.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
11. Parks and Recreation Department: Discussion of Discovery Park
Phase 2 Bid Results and Approval of AIAA133 Guaranteed Maximum
Price Amendment to Kreizenbeck Constructors for the Not-To-Exceed
Amount of $12,591,602.00
Simison: Next item up is Item 11, Parks and Recreation Department, discussion of
Discovery Park phase two bid results and approval of a not to exceed amount of
12,591,602 dollars. Mr. Barton.
Barton: Good afternoon, Mayor and Council. We were in front of you last summer
presenting designs for Discovery Park phase two. We received direction from you --
primarily was the addition of a skate park and a bike park, some other modifications. We
finalized those plans this fall, put the project out to bid, without the skatepark and without
the bike park, because those will be done under separate design build contracts. So, the
-- the total of all the bids that we received for the base project, including the soft costs for
construction, are a total of 12,591,602 dollars, which is what we are asking for that
guaranteed maximum price amendment. I would make note that there -- in that price
there is a nine percent contingency in there and that any unused contingency would be
returned to the city. So, going forward pending the approval of that guaranteed maximum
price, we will start construction this spring, work through designs of both the skate park
and the bike park and bring those designs back to you to look at. We feel that with the
one -- almost 1 .8 million dollars left over to build those two amenities that we -- we do
have plenty of funds in our existing budget to accomplish that. So, I would be happy to
answer any questions you have and ask for your approval.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
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Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Do we have any preliminary estimates on the bike and skate park and if that
-- how much more that might be above what we have set aside --what we have budgeted?
Barton: Yeah. Great -- great question, Mr. Mayor and Council Woman Perreault. So, we
have -- we have put out an RFP for skate park design build and bike park design build.
We didn't have a responsive bidder on the bike park design build. So, now we are in
negotiations. The skate park we do have a responsive bidder. Their initial estimate came
in at 438,000 and that's roughly the square footage that we talked about and -- but I hate
to take and put that number out that -- I mean take that with a grain of salt, because that's
not a finalized design or a final price, but we are in that -- that's -- it's a -- it's in the realm
of 500,000 and, then, the remaining amount plus any returned unused contingency would
be returned to go towards the bike park or be returned into our impact fee account.
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And, Mike, thanks. Council Member Perreault asked
one of my questions. My second one is just if you could refresh my memory as to the
source of the funds for this park and the phase two upgrades.
Barton: Yeah. Great question, Mr. Mayor and Councilman. This project is funded a
hundred percent from park impact fee funds.
Cavener: Great. Thanks, Mike. And I guess, Mr. Mayor, I guess I put myself as some of
our members of the community that are in the audience tonight and if I heard 12 and a
half million dollars for parks I might start to scratch my head and so I think it's just a good
reminder for our residents that -- that growth is paying for this. This is not coming on the
backs of our existing taxpayers. I think that's very very important to note.
Simison: Thank you, Mr. Cavener, for making that point. Council, any other questions or
comments? Or motions?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I move that we approve the Parks and Recreation request -- actually, do we
need to approve that-- I should ask Bill. Do we need to approve the amount or specifically
what kind of motion are we needing?
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Nary: It's to -- Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Council Member Perreault, so you are
approving the Discovery Park phase two bid results and approval of the AIA contract.
Perreault: Okay. So, the bid results. Okay.
Nary: Yes.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I make a motion to approve the Discovery Park phase two bid results and
approval of the AIA A133 guaranteed maximum price amendment to the Kreizenbeck
Contractors -- Constructors for the not to exceed amount of 12,591,602 dollars.
Bernt: Second.
Simison: I have a motion and a second. Do I have any discussion? If not, all in favor
signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it and it is agreed to. Thanks, Mike.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
ACTION ITEMS
12. Public Hearing for Red Aspen (H-2021-0066) by KM Engineering, LLP,
Located at the southeast corner of S. Linder Rd. and W. Overland Rd.
A. Request: Annexation and Zoning of 2.99 acres of land with a request
for the C-G zoning district for the purpose of constructing an
approximate 30,000-square-foot flex space building on 2.19 acres
of land.
Simison: Okay. Council, next item up is under Action Items, it's Item 12, public hearing
for Red Aspen, H-2021-0066. I will open this public hearing with staff comments.
Dodson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of Council. Good to see everybody here. As
noted, the first item up for tonight is Red Aspen. Later on we will get to the fun one. This
will be fun in other ways.
Simison: Yeah. I heard this one had a great presentation at P&Z.
Dodson: It really did. I hope we get the same thing, so -- we will be good to go. The
project before you is for Red Aspen. The site consists of 2.9 acres of land, currently
zoned RUT in the county, which is Rural Urban Transition. It's located at the southeast
corner of Linder and Overland. Has a future land use designation of commercial and
medium density residential. You can't see it on this map, but the medium density is just
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a sliver along the bottom of the property, because as I will note later on, future land use
designations are not parcel specific. To the north is Overland Road and north of that is
some general industrial, which includes the Camping World business, as well as Bish's
further to the northeast. To the east is R-8 zoning, although it is the newest Meridian fire
station. To the south is R-15 zoning and some multi-family in the form of some four-plexes
-- two story four-plexes and to the west is Linder Road, which -- and, then, further west of
that is C-C zoning with some commercial development that is currently under
development. It's not all built out. The request before you tonight is for annexation and
zoning only. It's to annex all 2.99 acres of land with a request for C-G zoning for the
purpose of constructing an approximate 30,000 square foot flex space building on 2.19
acres of land. So, the difference in the zoning -- or the zoning -- I should say the
annexation and, then, the actual boundary of the project is the zoning must go to the
centerline of the street. Despite two future land use designations, the city anticipates
commercial uses on this corner, especially because it is adjacent to two major arterial
roadways and near a planned interstate overpass. God willing. The proposed use of flex
space is subject to specific use standards, UDC 11-4-318, and is proposed to serve as
the core office and warehouse of the local business Red Aspen. Red Aspen is a social
selling online beauty company and aims to utilize their site as their new main hub for their
growing business. Again, it is a local business started here in Meridian, so they want to
stay here. Flex space is a principally permitted use in the requested C-G zoning district
and, to be clear, just like at P&Z, flex space does not mean warehouse. It can have a
warehouse component, it could have retail, it could have office, it can have a myriad of
different uses in and out of it. Usually local businesses use this use for its flexibility.
Hence flex space. Access to the site is proposed via one connection to Linder and one
connection to Overland Road, with both accesses restricted to right-in, right-out. The
access point from Linder is actually an existing 25 foot wide access point for the multi-
family project to the south. The applicant is proposing to widen this curb cut to 40 feet
and share it with that project. It's my understanding that that access point and the sharing
of that has been approved between the two parties. ACHD has reviewed the proposal for
both accesses and supports the applicant's request, including to widen the existing Linder
accesses. Both access points are as far away as you can physically get from the
intersection, which is great. The applicant has proposed to place the building near the
hard corner and pull it away from the existing multi-family residential to the south,
approximately 119 feet as currently shown, and that does include the required 25 foot
landscape buffer to the south as a land use buffer between commercial and residential
uses. The applicant has proposed -- sorry. No buffer is required adjacent to the fire
station, because it's not a residential use. The applicant is also showing the required
landscape buffers adjacent to arterial streets, with one adjacent to Overland being shown
wider than the required 25 feet. This was discussed at the Commission hearing. Staff--
I should say -- well, before I get there -- due to the required right of way dedication the
proposed building is shown approximately 42 feet back, rather than the 25 feet from
Overland. It has led to the building being further south than staff originally anticipated
and because of that and because -- in order to help the site get -- or to help the applicant
get some of the site back for buildable area, staff is recommending the applicant reduce
the street buffer to Overland by going through the alternative compliant -- compliance
process with the future application, which would be certificate of zoning compliance after
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-- if the application is approved for annexation and zoning. Staff finds that the revision of
the site has at least two positive outcomes. One being the building can be moved further
north towards Overland and create a better presence and streetscape along this corridor
and moving the building further north creates further separation from the existing multi-
family to the south, while at the same time allowing more area for the truck maneuver --
maneuverabil -- that's not a word. For the trucks maneuvering in the south half of the
site. The applicant has stated the planned hours of operation are Monday through Friday,
9:00 to 5:00, with occasional Saturday hours during the holiday season, which would be
October to December. Most importantly, the applicant has stated that any freight
deliveries will only occur during normal business hours. So, none of the 6:00 a.m. drops
or 10:00 p.m. And due to the proposed hours of operation staff believes the proposed DA
provisions and screening methods will be sufficient for any noxious consequences of the
proposed use. Staff did not include any specific provisions limiting the hours of operation,
because of the already limits by code in the C-G zoning district. Site -- the site and floor
plan do show compliance with the specific use standards for proposed flex space. They
cannot have more than 70 percent warehouse and no less than 20 percent office. The
-- this also includes the position of the loading docks, as you can see here on the south
end of the site. They are facing to the east and not facing an arterial, nor facing residential
use. The loading docks and roll-up doors meet the specific use standards. The
Commission did recommend approval of this project. At the hearing there was not much
discussion. Some of it really focused on some clarification of my comments and my
conditions in my staff report, as well as discussion regarding the applicant's request to
modify DA provision to allow-- I guess some of the uses -- I have made -- I have provision
in there limiting the uses and so there was some discussion about why I limited the uses
to what I did. The Commission did add a condition of approval to -- as I have noted,
because I missed it, to require the applicant obtain a property boundary adjustment.
However, in the Commission motion they said prior to City Council. That's physically
impossible between Commission and Council just because of the processing with the
county, but in my Commission recommendation to the Council I have modified that
condition, so that it reads appropriately, which is just prior to certificate zoning compliance,
which is perfectly fine, because there are three existing parcels here, so they can either
combine them, move -- move them, they just can't go underneath the building. They also
modified DA provision A-1-B to increase the height limit consistent with the C-C zoning
district, which is 50 feet, rather than the C-G zoning district height limit to 65. There were
no -- there was no written testimony before the Commission hearing or after. So, after
that I will stand for any questions.
Simison: Thank you, Joe. Council, any questions? Would the applicant like to come
forward? If you could state your name and address for the record.
McKinney: My name is Jesse McKinney and our business address is 989 South Industry
Way here in Meridian.
Reese: I'm Genie Reese. Same address.
Moore: Amanda Moore. Same address.
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McKinney: We are so excited to be here this evening. Thank you so much for having us.
We are here with Red Aspen and at Red Aspen we are on a mission --
(All three in unison). To inspire women to stand up, stand out, and stand together by
uniting passion with purpose.
McKinney: We are Meridian homegrown and we are excited to stay here in Meridian. To
give you a little bit about us. We started in 2017. We are very thrilled, because we have
about 10,000 sales reps all over the country and we will end the year at somewhere
around 30 million dollars in revenue.
Reese: We launched Red Aspen just four short years ago with a line of false lashes and
they have expanded to include over 150 spews, including color cosmetics and press on
nails.
Moore: Currently our office here in Meridian has about three different locations. So, as
the COO I would not be -- I would be so happy if we combined them all into one beautiful
warehouse where we could continue to grow our business and stay here in Meridian and
maybe even add a little splash of pink.
McKinney: We would like to thank the Council for their consideration and we hope we
get a resound -- a resounding thumbs up. Thanks, everyone.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Okay. This is a public hearing. Mr. Clerk,
do we have anyone signed up to testify on this item?
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, we had five people sign in. The three that said they wanted to testify
just did. The other two did not indicate wishing to testify.
Simison: Would you like to call out their names and invite them up to testify, make
sure --
Johnson: I certainly can. It looks like we have Josh Gantz and Cornel Larson.
Larson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the City Council in Meridian. My name is
Cornel Larson. My address is 210 Murray in Boise. I am the architect on the project here
tonight with the client and wanted to let you know that we are okay with the staff report.
It's acceptable to us. We also -- we would like to thank Joe, staff, for helping us through
the project and the process and as well as our neighbor, who had agreed to give us a
shared access, so that we could actually make this site work for the Red Aspen folks.
Steve Smith. And ACHD has worked well with us on it, too. So, we have got pretty much
all the players on board for the project. So, tonight we are here just to ask for your support
for this annexation and rezone. I would be happy to answer any questions you might
have on zoning or the building or any of those items.
Simison: Council, any questions?
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Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you. I want to understand the flex space designation. So, it seems to
me from the project description that you have a very specific use and oftentimes when
we are presented with flex space requests it's because there is an intention to have
multiple tenants or that the -- the use of the property may change at some point in the
future. So, is that -- is that a designation that the city staff recommended that you put on
this based on the style of the structure or was that something that the applicant was
requesting specifically?
Larson: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, we looked at all the definitions and the
uses in the C-G zone and the flex space fits this building pretty well. They have office
space. They have a need for an area where they do their online productions,
photography, those kind of issues. They also have need for a conference room and a
space that they can package and ship their product to their various vendors. So, the flex
space designation is a -- is a good designation for this use based on the current code
that's in Meridian.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Thank you. Mr. Larson, how much bright pink could we expect at this location?
I heard the applicants reference potential for the exterior to bring a splash of color to
Meridian. Can you comment on that?
Larson: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Strader, we anticipate doing some pink on the doors
and maybe on the signage. The rest of the building will be pretty neutral tones. It wouldn't
be all pink by any means.
Strader: Got it. Thank you.
Simison: Council, any additional questions? Thank you, Cornel.
Larson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Simison: Mr. Clerk, anybody else signed up?
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, that was everyone.
Simison: Okay. Is there -- this is a public hearing. If there is anybody in the audience
that would like to come forward and provide testimony on this item you can do so at this
time or if there is anybody online, please, use the raise your hand function and we can
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bring you in to provide testimony. Seeing no one either online or in the room wishing to
provide testimony on this item, Council?
Borton: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Borton.
Borton: One question for staff. There is reference in the staff report of -- of-- and maybe
you touched on it and I missed it, but the -- having a DA provision that limits the height to
50 feet, like a C-C zoning, similar to the adjacent. Is that part of the DA provision, a
condition that's --
Dodson: Yes, sir. Yeah. That's already in there.
Borton: Okay.
Simison: Do I have a motion to close the public hearing?
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I move that we close the public hearing.
Borton: Second.
Simison: Have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor signify by
saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have it.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: Before we make another motion I just want to say congratulations for a successful
Meridian business. These type of success stories resonate in our city, because we do
such a great job and we have entrepreneurs who are willing to make investments and --
and take risk and it's evident in this particular application and congratulations on your
business and your success. It really speaks volumes of your -- what you are doing. So,
congratulations.
Simison: And I didn't want to preclude the vote, but I had the pleasure of going and visiting
their business a while back and hearing about this challenge and I want to also thank Tori
and others for trying to work and help them find property, which would allow them to do
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this and they were interested in staying in Meridian and commitment to being part of our
community. So, with that I would love a great motion.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I'm thrilled to make a motion and echo the same comments that my fellow
Council Members and Council President and Mayor made. We love seeing a homegrown
business succeed in Meridian and expand. It's very exciting. So, with that after
considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony I move to approve file number H-
2021-0066 as presented in the staff report for today's hearing date.
Bernt: Second.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve item H-2021-0066. Is there any
discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Bernt, yea; Perreault, yea; Hoaglun, yea; Strader,
yea.
Simison: All ayes. Motion carries and the item is agreed to. Good luck.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
13. Public Hearing for Centerville Subdivision (H-2021-0046) by
Engineering Solutions, LLP, Located at 4111 E. Amity Rd. (including
the outparcel to the south) and 5200 S. Hillsdale Ave., at the southeast
corner of S. Hillsdale and E. Amity
A. Request: Annexation and Zoning of 40.49 acres of land from RUT to
the R-8 (13.38 acres), R-15 (24.17 acres), and C-C (2.95 acres)
zoning districts.
B. Request: A Preliminary Plat consisting of 249 total lots (124 single-
family residential lots, 79 townhome lots, 4 multifamily lots, 4
commercial lots, 34 common lots, and 4 other lots) on 38.95 acres of
land.
Simison: We will just let the room clear out. Most people are going to stick around for
the next one, so -- okay. Next item on the -- next item on the agenda is a public hearing
for Centerville Subdivision, H-2021-0046. We will open this public hearing with staff
comments from Joe.
Dodson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This will be the Joe show tonight. So, we will be good
to go. The application before you, as noted, is Centerville Subdivision. It is located at the
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southeast corner of Amity and I believe it's South Hillsdale. Yes. South Hillsdale Avenue.
Amity is an arterial. Hillsdale is a collector street. You guys have my outline, but I will
jump around a little bit on that, just to let you know. The site consists of 40 and a half
acres of land, currently zoned RUT, like the last project. It's located across three different
parcels at -- which is 4111 East Amity, 40 -- or sorry. 5200 South Hillsdale. And, then,
the out-parcel, which would be to the east of 5200 South Hillsdale. There is no application
history with the city with this -- with these properties. The future land use designation for
this property is both medium density residential and mixed use neighborhood and, again,
as I noted, these are not parcel specific. I want to be very clear on that, because I know
this has come up in the public testimony, both P&Z, written, and otherwise and across
every project I seem to get. The -- having two designations the applicant landowner can
-- they have the -- the opportunity to use either -- mix both, however. This applicant has
chosen to use both. But it is not required to match where the lines are in its area. It could
be seen as a preferred with whoever -- however we drew the map, but, again, the
landowner has flexibility in how they present the application. It does not mean Council
has to approve that, but they have the flexibility to present something that could be both
or only one of them. The requests before you tonight are multiple. Annexation and zoning
of 40 and a half acres of land from RUT to the R-8 zoning district. R-15. And the C-C
zoning district. R-8 is requested for 13.38 acres. R-15, 24.17. And the C-C zoning district
for 2.95 acre -- 2.95 acres. The concept plan shows 219 single family units and 16 multi-
family units and a preliminary plat consisting of 249 total lots, which is 124 single family
units, 79 townhome lots, four multi-family lots, four commercial lots and, then, a lot of
other common lots on 38.95 acres of land. There has been no CUP for the multi-family,
which are, again, only four buildings of four four-plexes. They would have to come in later
for those and that would be handled through your conditional use permit with the Planning
and Zoning Commission. First we will go through some general discussion over the
project and, then, go to the revisions that occurred between the two Commission
hearings. The project is proposed in four phases. All of the detached single family is
proposed in the first and second phase, as well as open space and amenities for the most
part. Sorry. Nine townhome lots and the accesses to Hillsdale and Amity are proposed
in the first phase. So, you have the access road to Amity, the access road to Hillsdale.
So, the applicant is required to do that if they want more than 30 homes. They need to
have two access points. The existing stubs that are to the southeast corner, which you
can see -- one from the east, one from the south, are proposed to be constructed in the
second phase with the remaining R-8 single family lots. So, this line also delineates
where the R-8 versus R-15 zoning is requested. So, you have all the R-8 zoning -- almost
all of it -- within the second phase and the detached single family within the R-15 in the
first phase. The commercial lots and the second access to Hillsdale -- the first area of
the townhome lots and the four four-plex buildings are proposed in phase three, which is
directly at the corner of Hillsdale and Amity. The southwest corner of the project, which
is closest to the elementary school, is proposed in phase four and includes the remaining
townhomes and a large linear open space area with additional amenities. The qualified
open space consists of the required street buffers, the large centralized open space lot,
large linear open spaces and other small areas throughout the site that include -- or I
should say have pedestrian connectivity throughout the entire site. The correct number
of amenities are proposed based on the size of the property. The future CUP will confirm
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the required minimum number of amenities for the multi-family portion. So, just the 16
units. But preliminarily I can say that they have ample amenities and open space for both.
Access to the site as noted is proposed to South Hillsdale and East Amity. The applicant
is extending two local stub streets into the site, as noted again, in the southeast corner
generally, with a pedestrian connection between the two. There used to be, from my
understanding, a direct vehicular connection. Neighbors didn't want that and staff also
agree with that. It will slow down some of the traffic and cut-through traffic. Just a
pedestrian connection is adequate. There was a TIS required, which is your traffic impact
study, because more than one hundred units were proposed. Originally -- so, I'm kind of
jumping ahead of myself here, but originally more units were proposed and with that there
is a projection of 2,600 additional vehicle trips per day and 266 additional trips per hour
in the p.m. peak hour. The TIS and ACHD recommended the following improvements to
both roads. To Hillsdale Avenue and the Amity Road intersection -- right here in the corner
-- recommended for an interim signal. That is slated to be a roundabout in the future, but
in the meantime they wanted to --want an interim signal. For the Amity Road and Amarita
Avenue entrance, which is this access here, there should be a dedicated eastbound right-
turn lane and a dedicated westbound left-turn lane on Amity. Staff has recommended
conditions of approval consistent with those recommendations. Safe access to schools
is always a priority. ACHD recommended -- the applicant has agreed to install a rapid
rectangular flashing beacon at the Hillsdale and Hill Park intersection for an additional
safe crossing for current and future residents. So, that would be at this access here.
There was some discussion about having it further south, but because there is an existing
one further south in front of the school, ACHD, the applicant, staff, as well as West Ada
School District, would prefer it at this intersection. The project area as noted does have
a different land use designation on it -- future land use designations. To the south -- and
it is different than the existing development to the south and southwest, which you can
see on this map. To the south is actually low density residential. So, this site is not
supposed to match what is to the south according to the future land use map. The majority
of the site does contain the medium density residential designation, which allows
residential uses at three to eight dwelling units per acre. There is a relatively small,
relative to the rest of the site, of mixed use neighborhood, which allows six to 12 dwelling
units per acre. As part of a larger mixed use area further to the west that does encompass
approximately 70 acres. So, again, mixed use neighborhood area is much more involved
on the west side, which is already a majority residential because of the Hill Century Farm
project, with some commercial and storage along the Amity frontage. Approximately half
of this mixed use area -- again, there is a proof of residential. The applicant has proposed
transitional lot sizes and density. So, to the right is the latest plan. Just to note. Along
the perimeter of the property they have proposed traditional lot sizes and density within
this project. Along the south and east boundaries they have matched the lot sizes of the
existing development. Smaller lot sizes are proposed towards the interior of the project,
culminating in the townhome and multi-family and commercial lots on the west and
northwest part of the site. Staff does find that the proposed project is compatible with the
surrounding development because of the transitional density proposed, which is
discussed throughout our Comprehensive Plan about wanting that, especially when you
go from low density, medium, and, then, to a mixed use designation and has an increase
of density per those future land use designations. At the Commission hearing this project
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was heard twice. It was continued from I believe an August hearing to its October hearing.
Between those hearings the applicant removed all the apartments, which are shown on
the left. This was the original plan -- plan. They removed all of the apartment units,
except for the four four-plexes over there. So, again, 16 units there. There is now 219
units, which is down from the original 327. So, more than a hundred units were removed.
Multi-family was replaced by more townhomes and drive aisles were replaced by 28 foot
wide private streets, since the units front on greenspace. The applicant has now received
private street approval for those private streets, which are an administrative approval only.
They added three additional commercial lots and included a proposal for a portion of C-
C zoning right to here. So, these four lots. One is a daycare and, then, three flex space
lots. Because of the addition of C-C zoning, the overall area of the residential portion of
the project was actually reduced by 30 -- to 36.45 acres, rather than 38.95. The gross
density is six dwelling units per acre, which is down from 8.4. So, almost two and a half
units per acre less. Staff was fine with the loss of one hundred units. The applicant has
made a significant adjustment to mitigate the Commission's concerns over density and
its impact in nearby schools and the transportation network. For the four additional
commercial properties the applicant has proposed a new right-in, right-out access to
Hillsdale, which is right here. It matches up with the access on the west side of Hillsdale.
ACHD has approved this additional street connection and does not plan to limit it at this
time. And by limit I mean restrict it to right-in, right-out. The applicant also moved the
proposed pool amenity from the multi-family area here to the large central open space,
which was also discussed at the Commission hearing. Initial review of the revised
landscape plan shows continued compliance with the required open space. They have
also added some additional amenities. I believe there is a sports court here. Probably
pickleball, as we all love. Tot lot. As well as gazebo, playground area here, and these
large linear open spaces are much appreciated when it comes to open spaces. They
provide both walkable, as well as usable area. At the Commission hearing -- both of them
-- there was a lot of discussion from the public, as well as the Commission, on the
proposed density and how it transitions through the site. There is a desire to have more
commercial and less apartments, which they changed. Overall concerns with additional
residential in this area and the impact of the roadways and the neighborhood school,
which is always a concern with any new project. There was discussions on how staff
measures and analyzes density of projects when there is multiple future land uses, which
I did discuss in my staff report. I have analyzed this against the lower density, the more
restrictive, the three to eight, rather than give them any potential of using the mixed use
neighborhood up to 12 units per acre, I just analyzed the whole project overall and they
meet the medium density, which is more restrictive. There was a discussion about a
desire to reduce the density further than the applicant has proposed currently with the
revised layout and wanted a removal of any multi-family, as well as more reduction in the
number of townhome units. The Commission had some of the same discussion. They
supported the revised layout that included more attached single family commercial and
the new multi-family four-plex buildings. There was discussion about the amount and
availability of parking for these areas surrounding the townhomes and the increased
commercial lots. So, to be clear, based on the widths that they are proposing, the private
drives to be, there can be on-street parking on one side of this, where the applicant has
gracefully put some bulb outs, which is appreciated, and there is also -- you can't really
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see it here, but there is backup parking all along the -- the west side of the street, too.
Each of the townhome units will have a parking pad and two car garage, which will exceed
our parking standards for each unit and, then, the multi-family will need to maintain their
parking standards as well. So, will the commercial based upon their square footage.
From -- because I don't have the site plan of each of the commercial buildings and, then,
the multi-family, I cannot say a hundred percent that they are meeting it, but based upon
review and similar projects they are more than likely going to vastly exceed the off-street
parking requirements in this neighborhood, as well as because all the local streets will be
33 feet wide, which allow on-street parking where no driveways exist. The -- following
the second Commission hearing in October, the Commission did not make any additional
changes to the staff -- to the staff report beyond those noted within the memo dated
October 15th. Subsequently, sections of the staff report were modified and that was in
the Commission recommendation to Council. It also included the revised plans and
recommended revisions to any of the conditions. At this time there are no outstanding
issues for City Council, because the private street application was applied for and
approved prior to the hearing. There have been multiple pieces of testimony submitted,
both before the Commission hearing, after the Commission hearing and prior to this
Council meeting. I don't want to downplay them, but I can't go into all of them, there is a
very high number, but talks about school capacity, talks about traffic, density, the standard
ones that we get nowadays for sure as we continue to grow and influx our spaces here.
No pun intended on that, actually. There was some new discussion this time concerning
the conflict of the future land use map and, then, just overall too much density. That had
seemed to be hit on a lot more this time. So, I do want to let the neighbors know that I do
read these as they come in. I don't just brush you off. I promise I read them. After that I
will stand for any questions.
Simison: Thank you, Joe. Council, any questions for staff?
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Thanks. Maybe just to start off, when it comes to floating a designation, we do
allow people to float designations, right, in our Comprehensive Plan and how we proceed,
but we also talk a lot about transition. So, can you talk me through how we sort of think
through balancing transition with floating designations when it comes to a project like this?
Dodson: Council Woman Strader, thank you. Great question. So, first, floating is an
interesting word that's no longer used in our Comprehensive Plan. When a -- this project
has both of these designations on the property, so it can use either or use both or one of
them. I guess we could use the term float them throughout the site, but the
Comprehensive Plan does not talk about floating designations across sites anymore like
it used to. When we analyze these, frankly, because this site has a majority of medium
density residential versus mixed use, I largely looked at this from the medium density
residential component. That -- generally, whichever one is the most dominant and, then,
you also combine that with what the applicant is proposing, that's how I'm generally going
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to analyze it and as well medium density residential was more restrictive in its density, so
I wanted to analyze it against that. Really, the only mixed use neighborhood component
of the project is the addition of commercial. If they didn't have that, no commercial uses
would be allowed to be proposed without a map amendment. So, that's really the only
mixed use component that has been proposed. Medium density residential allows the
townhome units and allows the detached single family. So, that all matches with the future
land use and medium density. When staff analyzes these, a lot goes into it in that way
and, again, it -- it can be largely driven by what the applicant presents by their private
property rights and we compare that to code. The Comprehensive Plan is a guide. It is
not codified. It is a -- I'm not going to say pie in the sky, but it is something that we aspire
to. If we had it perfectly every time we would never do map amendments and everything
would fit all in these boxes and they don't, as we all know. That's why the future
annexations are not parcel specific, so that an applicant has flexibility in what they
propose. I hope that answers your question.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: If it's okay I have a couple of maybe follow-ups along the same vein.
Dodson: No problem.
Strader: Thank you. So -- okay. So, let's take, then, sort of drilling down -- curious. So,
you are analyzing the whole site against the more restrictive designations. You are seeing
now it fits medium density residential. If you looked at just the parcel that's on the far left
would that also meet the definition of medium density residential?
Dodson: Of the existing parcels, ma'am?
Strader: Yeah. So, we have three -- three pieces of land in front of us; right?
Dodson: Right.
Strader: There is one it's kind of --
Dodson: Uh-huh.
Strader: -- a little bit of an odd shape on the left. It seems to be where most of the density
is. If you looked at that one in isolation would that also meet the definition of medium
density residential?
Dodson: If I split the site in half I think you would be hard pressed to meet it and, then, if
you took it even further you might, because of the commercial. There is really not that
many units here comparatively. And in no way is this high density residential per our
code. Per really planning. It's -- it's less than eight units to the acre, which is medium.
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Generally we don't look at a site like that, especially -- we don't look at a site based on
the existing parcels because a project will always encompass more than one when it has
a large area like this.
Strader: Okay. Mayor, one more. Thank you. Just holistically. So, when it comes to like
a mixed use neighborhood designation we know this is an area that is underserved by
retail and other uses. How much flexibility do we have to require commercial within the
mixed use neighborhood designation? Do we have the ability to require all commercial,
for example? Is there a precedent for that in City Council decisions?
Dodson: Council Woman Strader, great question. Your last one I don't know the
precedent. My assumption is, no, that there has not been a point where we required -- in
a mixed use project -- and mixed use I mean not just the designation, but when there is
residential and a mixed use designation or residential and commercial component, that I
do not know of a time where the city has required a certain area all be commercial.
However, I did call this out in my staff report. I have had discussions with the -- with a
few of the neighbors and have had discussions with the applicant about that. This came
up at the Commission hearing as well. The Council has power to say, no, there needs to
be more commercial. Absolutely. I don't know if you can draw a line based upon the
future land use map. There is not really a need to do that. You can draw a line based
upon the proposed site plan and the areas. That's probably easier and more efficient of
our time and your time, but you -- the Council definitely has power to require more
commercial and, to be more specific, what kind of uses are even proposed. You could
require retail. You can require or prohibit flex space. All of that is in your purview.
Strader: Perfect. Thanks.
Dodson: You are very welcome.
Simison: Council, any additional questions for staff? All right. Then, I will ask the
applicant to, please, come forward.
McKay: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Becky McKay. Engineering
Solutions. Business address 1029 North Rosario in Meridian. I'm representing
Challenger Development on this particular piece of property. As Joe indicated, we are
asking for annexation and zoning of 40.50 acres. We have got 13.38 acres of R-8, 24.17
acres of R-15 and 2.95 acres of C-C, which is a commercial designation. This particular
piece of property is unusual in the fact that it has a mixed use neighborhood designation
and medium density residential designation on a parcel that is technically a little bit less
than 40 acres. So, one of the things when we met with your staff was they said, you
know, we want an integrated site plan. We -- we really need you to do your best, based
on the fact that we understand the property is only 39 acres, we want you to integrate
commercial. We want you to integrate a multi-family component. A townhome
component. A single family component. Plus we want you to do transitional single family
lot sizes, obviously, to be compatible with the adjoining Rockhampton Subdivision that's
to the east and to the Howry No. 2 Subdivision, which they call Hillsdale -- or what is it?
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Hillsdale Creek Subdivision to the south. So, we worked diligently with the staff. I came
back multiple times with various sketches and -- and got input and so we kind of got what
the staff kind of envisioned. We had our neighborhood meeting on June 3rd. In that
neighborhood meeting we had 355 dwelling units, which consisted of 125 single family,
26 townhomes and 204 multi-family and, then, we had a daycare. The neighborhood --
we had a great turnout at the site. It was warm, it was nice, and they said, hey, hey, hey,
the density is too much. You have got to bring that density down. We don't like that. We
don't like the direct connections to the stub streets. We don't want cut-through traffic. We
need you to look at what you can do to minimize cut-through. What you can do to better
transition and lower that density. So, we had a second neighborhood meeting in June --
at the end of June. We dropped our single family lots from 125 to 124. We dropped our
multi-family lots from 204 to 168. We eliminated the continuous -- we had a street that
came straight up through here and they were worried about traffic coming through and
cutting through the Rockhampton and going out to Cloverdale. We also had concerns
about the Hillsdale Creek. So, we went ahead and we cut off that vehicular connection
and did a pedestrian connection. We also eliminated the apartment buildings that were
on our south side and we incorporated some townhomes and, then, they wanted to see
elevations. So, we brought elevations to them. Keep in mind this particular property,
being the fact that it's on Amity, which is an entryway corridor, you have Eagle Road --
you have Eagle Road, which is directly to the west, which is a -- a multi-modal in your
Comprehensive Plan and a key transportation corridor, with commercial here, the
Albertson's center, a new roundabout that's been constructed, they -- they have widened
Eagle Road here and, then, we have Century Hill Farms commercial. So, they have a
significant amount of commercial and we just have a small amount of commercial that
lops over into this particular parcel and so one of the things I told the staff is I said, you
know, I don't want to be competing with Brighton. There is no way I can compete with the
Albertson's or the -- the pad sites that they propose on their project, so, you know, we,
obviously, have to -- we have to come up with something that will work as kind of a
neighborhood commercial component. So, we did submit to the Planning and Zoning
Commission and we went before the Commission and the Commission said, wow, you
know what, we don't like the apartments. Don't like them at all. Don't like the three story.
We want you -- they specifically told me -- eliminate the high density apartments. They
said this area we don't feel it's appropriate for apartments, even though we got the YMCA
-- South Meridian YMCA there, we have got Hillsdale Elementary, we have got the
Century Hill Farm's park. You are just east of a multi-modal arterial, but we want you to
look and focus more on townhomes. We want less impact on that neighborhood. Less
impact on the transportation system. Reduce your overall density. Move your primary
amenity to the central open space. Limit your residential structures to two story and
improve your transition and add additional commercial and we want you to blend and
integrate that commercial to provide a better mixed use project and so we took that -- I
said, you know, hey -- this was -- this was August. I said, you know, I need a couple
months to do this. So, I went back to my client. You know, we -- we worked on the site
plan and this is what we came up with. We came up with what I thought was -- was a far
superior plan. We ended up eliminating all the multi-family. We have townhomes that
are rear loaded. We have townhomes that are front loaded. We have townhomes that
are front loaded here and all of these townhomes are on open space, either on collector
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buffers or linear open space or in open space along the south boundary and, then, we
have townhomes up here that are two story that are also alley load. So, you can kind of
see -- oops. Then the other thing we did is we talked to the client and he said, well, you
know, I can't compete with Brighton, you know. You know, they have got -- they have got
medical office, they are going to have retail, they have assisted living. You know, we have
got to come up with some component that, obviously, will work in this area and we can't
just lop off and have commercial that -- that has no chance of any survival. So, we come
up with the flex space idea. The daycare is perfect and I have the daycare right here at
the entrance. I have an island here. So, we have a right turn in, we have a loop out and
a right turn out. So, it's -- it's designated to -- to serve this development as a whole, but
yet it can serve the community as a whole and, then, we came up with the flex space and
one of the things that we came up with the Commission was, well, you know, hey, what
-- what do you describe flex space? Well, flex space is single story. Flex space has
higher ceilings. You can have retail. You can have office. You can have a combination
of a distribution -- like a -- they distribute coffee, but yet they have a coffee shop. You can
have -- you can have multiple uses. And so that was kind of our intent and, then, we
wanted to have some rental component in the -- in the complex and so that's why I
thought, well, you know, we will just put four four-plexes. That's 16 units. Just 16 units.
They are backing up to an arterial. And so as you can see the big thing we wanted to do
was, one, make it walkable. That's really important. In your Comprehensive Plan it talks
about -- in that mixed use neighborhood creating walkability. So, with the entryway
corridor we have 35 feet along Amity. We have micropaths that lead to that 35 feet. This
is a ten foot pathway. So, it's bicycle and pedestrian friendly. We also have an access
that is -- aligns with Shelburne South. Directly across from them. We are going to be
required to do a turn lane eastbound and a westbound turn lane at this entrance. Plus
widen Amity to 17 feet and, then, install a ten foot detached sidewalk all along that
frontage. Secondly, we are going to be building, obviously, a 20 foot buffer minimum size
and allocating area for a future roundabout and ACHD came to us and they said, you
know what, we have got one property owner to the north we can't get right away from, so
we are going to have to go for a signalized intersection. You guys do the signalized
intersection. We said absolutely. So, ACHD in their staff report and in your staff report
ACHD said at the 61 st lot you shall install a signalized intersection here at Century -- or
Hillsdale and Amity. That intersection --without us at build out at 2025 is a level of service
F on that left-hand turn. So, staff has put in your conditions of approval with the first
phase we will install this signal. ACHD will provide the materials. We have to, obviously,
design and install it. Secondly, one of the comments brought up by the neighborhood
was safe route to school. Getting over safely to the Y and Hillsdale Elementary. I went
through there and I looked, they -- they have a rapid flashing signal right across from the
school on Hillsdale Avenue, but we -- I met with Marcy Horner and I said, Marcy, I said
we would like to make it safe for our residents and our kids to get across either to the Y
or to the school. I said where would you want that? And she said we want it right here at
your collector entrance. We have -- we have a collector right here, we have a median,
and so we are going to install a rapid flashing signal there and the school district said
even though we have that flashing signal we have to have a crossing guard and so they
said we will have a crossing guard right there at your entrance and, then, we will have a
crossing guard right there in front of the elementary. We -- one of the things the staff
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asked me to do is utilize this central open space here and so we have a pool facility. We
have a tot lot. We have a pickleball court. We have -- and they said, you know, make
this feel soft. So, we have detached sidewalks all along this roadway and, then, these
are all alley load. These are 28 feet wide, so we exceed the minimum and, then, they
said we also want you to integrate the -- the commercial into the townhomes, but yet
segregate it and I'm like, well, gosh, how do I do that? So, we created this linear open
space and, then, we have notch outs for -- and we have 12 parallel parking spaces, in
addition to the parking spaces that are in front of the four-plexes and the daycare and the
flex space and, then, we have walking paths that run behind. We will not be putting any
sight obscuring fencing, that will all be wrought iron. Mr. Barton has indicated that for the
-- the townhomes he wants wrought iron to keep it open looking, to keep it -- to keep the
feel well and -- and so that is very important to us. I'm going to switch over here. As far
as our open space, when we submitted this application the open space requirement was
ten percent, because you were still doing your ordinance amendment. However, we
designed this to meet your new ordinance, knowing that it would be coming into effect.
Our qualified open space in this particular project is six acres, 15.4 percent. We have a
central common area of 1.93 acres, with a plaza area, a swimming pool facility, a
community playground, pickleball court, pathways, off-street parallel parking. We have
ten foot pathways along Amity. We have a pocket park at our entrance off of Amity Road
with public art, a plaza, and a pathway. We have a MEW area that's almost a half acre,
with covered sitting areas and pathways. We also have linear open space in the southern
portion of our townhomes with landscaping, pathways, a tot lot, and a gazebo, with other
micro paths and natural pathway connections to the adjoining subdivisions. This kind of
shows you like a blow up of the landscape plan. You can see we have a plaza area. This
is our pocket park and, then, we have pathways that lead out. We have micropaths that
lead up to Amity. Got a little excited. Sorry. Here we have pathways and micropaths that
come through and, then, we have detached walks that lead in to make it inviting. We
have pathways that go south and they go north and they go east and they go west and,
then, we have pathway that comes along here and goes out along the Cunningham
Lateral. The Cunningham Lateral cuts through this corner of the property. We already
received approval from the -- from the irrigation district, New York, to pipe that and the
Bureau of Reclamation. So, we will pipe that, it will be grassed, and we will have a natural
gravel surface. These show you some of the townhomes. This is kind of a farmhouse
design. We wanted to kind of mix it up a little bit. These are a rear entry. I will try to
hurry. Read through. These are my front load. That's the four-plex. And these are the
single family homes, which we have 85 foot lots. We have 90 foot lots. We have 74. We
have 64. And we have 34. And you can see the dwelling -- or 36. I'm sorry. And, then,
this is the flex space that we would like to emulate. This is over on Eagle. Pass through
their -- their DR. You can see they have the swing doors that come up, like the garage
doors, and, then, that's where they load material for distribution and, then, they also have
commercial uses. May I answer any questions?
Simison: Thank you, Becky.
McKay: Sorry.
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Simison: No. You're good.
McKay: A lot to go through.
Simison: Council, any questions for the applicant?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you, Becky. I'm curious why the desire to put the multi-family on the
Amity side and the flex space on the Hillsdale side? It seems to me that you would want
the flex space to -- to be on the side with greater traffic flow.
McKay: The flex space -- there we go. So, the flex space is here at the intersection of
Hillsdale and Amity. So, we do have good visibility here. You have the St. Luke's. You
have a veterinary office. You have -- I think a dentist. Then you have the South Meridian
Y. So, we felt that the flex space being visible from Hillsdale would be more neighborhood
type commercial. We asked ACHD for this access here, which is right across from the
Century Hill Farm's commercial area, so people could come in and what we envisioned
is you could have -- you could have a coffee shop, you could have somebody that has a
small business that lives in the neighborhood and wants to lease space. Somebody that
has a small distribution center, but yet they need small office. So, we wanted it integrated
into the neighborhood. When you stick it out on an arterial, then, you are talking about
arterial commercial and we have no -- as you can see no direct access to Amity, because
you are going to have a signalized intersection here. So, you are going to have to pull
that traffic in here. If people come in here, then, we would have intrusive traffic that
possibly would come back this way. So, in talking with the staff in -- in looking at the
transportation patterns and the trips generated, trying to reduce those trips, this made
more sense and we will have a signalized intersection, so they can safely go out.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Becky, you mentioned that build out would be completed in 2025. So, it sounds
like one phase a year starting in 2022?
McKay: Yes, sir.
Hoaglun: Okay. And follow up, Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
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Hoaglun: Question about the -- I read somewhere -- and I can't remember what phase
the daycare would be moved up, be one -- one of the earlier phases; is that correct, the
building of the daycare?
McKay: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, the daycare is in the third phase. So, the first
phase would take in the Amity entrance and, then, we would establish our primary
collector that comes in here off of Hillsdale, our central amenity and, then, our single
family detached lots. Our second phase would, then, be this area to the east and, then,
we had the third phase, which would be the daycare and, then, our flex space, our four-
plex and townhomes and, then, we have our fourth phase, which is here on the southwest
corner.
Hoaglun: Okay. Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Yeah. It must have been ready -- it was a part of discussion about maybe
moving that time frame up just for the daycare and instead of waiting to phase three it
would be earlier. So, that may not be true. I just --
McKay: Yeah. You know, Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, you know, it could -- it could be
incorporated into the --the first phase since we will be building this collector and the island
here and just, then, as long as we didn't come in more than 150 feet we would not be
required to do a turnaround. I beat you to the punch, didn't I?
Hoaglun: One last one, Mr. Mayor.
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: And I understand on -- on people going out that the daycare is available, they
can drop off, swing out --
McKay: Yes, sir.
Hoaglun: -- come out, swing in, but when they come back home and they come to pick
up what does that route look like?
McKay: When they come back home they have two options. So, I did think about that.
So, they can come down Amity, come in the Amity entrance and, then, come down and,
then, go in and pick up the kids, but, then, they have to make a right out, because one of
the ACHD requirements was because this is a collector they did not want a full access,
because they need to have stacking. Now, at full build out we will see -- with the third
phase we will see parents come in, we have a loop drive, they drop the kids off -- I did
this at Crossfield, it worked out slick, and, then, they right out, come up to the signal and,
then, they go north -- or west and northbound. Seventy percent of our traffic and our trips
are going to be northbound.
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Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
McKay: It's just -- that's where the jobs are. They are going to be heading to -- to
Meridian, to Boise city, but it's -- 70 percent of our trips will be west and, then, northbound.
Hoaglun: All right. Thank you.
Dodson: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Yes, Joe.
Dodson: Thank you. I did want to clarify even further on that median. That was not
originally proposed by the applicant, but ACHD's comments -- that was one of their
required revisions was to put that median, because they did not want those north-south
accesses on the collector that close to the intersection. So, that was not an applicant
decision or staff decision, that I was ACHD saying if you want them at all they -- there has
to be a median. That came up in the Commission hearing, because there was concern
about the -- the flow as discussed, but that's just something that we are going to have a
say in.
McKay: Mr. Mayor, Joseph is correct. That was an ACHD requirement. That was a
requirement to keep those approaches at that location.
Bernt: Joseph? That's official.
Simison: Council, any additional questions for the applicant at this time?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Becky, I want to touch on a couple of things that I -- I
assume we are going to probably hear the public testimony and I think it's important
maybe for you to address some of this from the get go. I know that Council received a
letter and you received a letter from West Ada in July that indicated attendance versus
capacity. My assumption is there isn't an updated letter that takes into account actual
enrollment that began this fall and I guess maybe just giving Council a flavor -- we have
got two of the three schools that are proposed to serve this neighborhood that are already
over capacity and while Hillsdale looks like it's under capacity on paper, those residents
who live in this area -- and I think full disclosure the Cavener family at one point was going
to be a Hillsdale family, so I know the challenges that that school has had with being over
capacity. So, I got to be real honest, that's always a big red flag for me and so I guess I
want to give you at least an opportunity at the beginning to address why this product
makes sense right now given the significant limitations of the schools to support this large
residential use.
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McKay: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, that's an excellent question. I have worked
very closely with West Ada School District on this particular project. I have had multiple
conversations with Marcy Horner. What Marcy indicated to me is that the Hillsdale
Elementary has a capacity of only 700 students, that they were -- obviously, had 600. For
2021 and '22 626 students. Marcy did qualify that, that Blue Valley Elementary is planned
within the South Ridge Subdivision at Linder and Overland Road. At this time they have
approved plans and they are ready to go. The only thing that they need is a bond and
due to COVID they do not know what the timing of that bond would be. However, she did
qualify that and said Gem Prep Charter School will serve the same area as Hillsdale
Elementary, which will open in fall of 2022. In the first year it will have a capacity of 312
students and, then, additional capacity thereafter of 500. So, she said some of these
families could choose that. The overflow school -- she indicated they -- they do have an
elementary overflow school for this site and what she -- they have done is they keep
shrinking the Hillsdale Elementary boundaries. Initially Hillsdale Elementary's boundaries
went far beyond this section and as this section has developed significantly, they are
pulling those boundaries back. As you well know, the West Ada School District plans to
have an elementary within each section where we have significant residential
development and that section feeds that school. So, eventually, the Sky Mesas, the
Highlands, the -- the other projects that were mentioned in some of the comments from
the existing neighbors that are taking place out in this area will be going to other schools,
but it will shrink to this section, because, one, they like those kids to be able to walk to
the schools, because it cuts down on their cost for transportation. But that -- that's --
that's their long-term plan.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor, an additional question if I may.
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Thank you. I just wanted to give you a chance if you want to respond to the in the staff report that talks about traffic level of service. I know Kristy's on. I may have a
question for her later on after testimony, but E's and F's don't typically get me very excited
about the roadway impacts and I guess like the school, I wanted to give you an opportunity
to respond.
McKay: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, that's a great question. Obviously, when the
TIS was done we were -- we were in COVID conditions, so ACHD and COMPASS were
providing the formulas in which the traffic engineers were told to use for the background
traffic and, then, obviously, going out to the 2025 year. Without our project the Eagle and
Amity intersection was operating as a level of service F. That was prior to the
improvement of the dual roundabout that has been completed and the expansion of Eagle
Road. Secondly, there were comments in the staff report that level of service F for the
left-hand turns at Hillsdale and Amity -- well, we will be alleviating that by installing the
signal and we have to install it with our first phase. So, not only are we -- it's -- it's going
to operate at level of service F regardless without us. Once we go ahead and put in a
signal it starts operating at level of service B. Then we will be widening Amity. We will be
adding decel lanes, left turn lanes at our entrances, along with the project to the north
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and, then, there were comments in the original TIS that talked about the ACHD and that
the improvements along Amity were pushed out to 2036 and 2040. If you look at the
2022-2026 integrated five year work plan, it is still in draft form, that ACHD anticipates to
adopt sometime this month. They have moved Amity and Cloverdale roundabout up to a
design year of 2023. Right of way acquisition 2024-25. Construction year 2026. Amity
from Cloverdale to Five Mile has been -- has been moved up from a 2024 design year,
2025 right of way acquisition, 2026 construction and, then, from Eagle to Cloverdale they
have a design year of 2026. So, it looks like to me, based on this draft five year work plan
from ACHD, that they are accelerating their build out in that year-- or build -- accelerating
their build out in this area to accommodate the growth that they have seen and the City
of Meridian has indicated this is a priority growth year. So, I assume that that has
translated into this five year work plan and we are doing what we can to mitigate our
impact.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Can either now or at a later point in time maybe Kristy Inselman provide some
-- some context around that as well?
Simison: Let's wait until we get out of the applicant testimony.
Cavener: That's fine. Totally fine. Thank you, Mayor.
Simison: Council, any additional questions for the applicant?
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I think it would be appropriate to get public testimony at this time.
Simison: And our intention is to take a break before we get into that, so with that we will
go ahead and take a recess. At least for ten minutes, maybe 15. So, we will try to
reconvene by -- Mr. Cavener, if you can be ready hopefully by 7.50 to 7.00 -- and, if not,
we will try to do 7:55.
Cavener: No problem. Thanks, Mayor.
Simison: Thanks.
(Recess: 7:39 p.m. to 7:56 p.m.)
Simison: All right. Council, we will go ahead and come out of recess and we will begin
with public testimony this evening. So,just a reminder to the community. When you come
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up you will be asked to state your name and address for the record and you will have
three minutes, unless we have anyone who signed up to represent a homeowners
association where they will be given ten minutes. So, Mr. Clerk, I will turn this over to
you.
Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. First we have James Phillips with the Southern Rim
Coalition.
Phillips: Mayor, City Council, James Phillips. 4140 East Rockhampton Street, Meridian,
Idaho. 83642. And I'm here representing Meridian Southern Rim Coalition.
Johnson: It's a very touchy mouse. Try to move to the right, click somewhere around the
rim and, then, you will have to scroll, because you are in PDF. Joe is going to grab it.
Phillips: Context -- context is important. Very very important. Here is a list of public
concerns and points of frustration that -- that southern Meridian residents are
experiencing. I'm sure you are well aware of this and -- and I'm sure there is a number
of people that's going to speak about these points. I'm not. But context is key and I'm
sure that if the Council -- Mayor and Council had a magic wand to resolve all these public
concerns and points of frustration they would waive it. I a hundred percent believe that.
So, context is key. I'm going to go to a magical world where none of these issues exist.
None of these. None of these. A magical world where we have great job housing ratios.
Where traffic is not a concern. Where the traffic study was actually done on up-to-date
data and not outdated models. A world where schools are not crowded and a world where
we have a way to balance growth to develop impact fees. It doesn't exist, but this is the
journey we are going to go through. In that perfect world -- even in that perfect world the
current plan, the application, breaks public trust in a few different ways and these are --
the public trusts City Council to enforce these things, even if they are guidelines. As these
are the expectation that the public has. One, FLUM consistency. And we will talk about
that a bit. Two. Surrounding compatibility. Note not complimentary. Compatibility. Three.
Transitional densities, particularly where they take place, across alleys and roadways.
Four. Appropriate zoning as per the designation land use. You will see the MUN. I have
a couple notes here around MUN, MDR, and those zonings and what's expected there.
And five -- the fifth piece there is on walkability. Now, I color code -- coded this, so it will
be consistent throughout the presentation. So, when you see the orange referring to that
FLUM. When you see the purple surrounding compatibility. Red transitional density. That
line is sensitive. The application is not consistent with the FLUM. Now, I understand, I
use the word float and I know it's not in that comp plan and that's okay, I get it. What I'm
talking about is how they arrange the densities and specifically what the comp plan does
refer to when you talk about abutting parcels, that -- you know, I get it, land use
designations are not parcel specific, but the reason why they couple those together is
because P&Z -- P&Z staff understands that this provision does not get -- also doesn't give
the applicant carte blanche to reconfigure it to a designation any way they want. It has
limits; right? And -- and conditions. And it talks about those limits and conditions in the
plan itself. And so that's what this slide is about. It's just talking about highlighting where
those limits are and what --the conditions for those provisions. In this instance developer
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purchased all three parcels. So, in aggregate the parcels perfectly match the designation.
So, there is no provision needed to float or to move designations as it's already provided.
But even with that, I get that they still -- developer can still take those and reinterpret it
the way that they want. I get that. The second slide -- second image here is the original
plan with the apartment complex. In order to reduce -- in order to have dwelling densities
within the max range of the MUN it requires considering more than 50 percent of that land
to be MUN and that, again, against -- that hits a limit within the comp plan. It's floating
above that 50 percent land being developed. So, that's how and I'm glad that P&Z saw
that and -- and also glad that developer iterated on that. Second one is around -- they
replaced the apartments with the townhouses. This reduced a lot -- and removed a lot of
concern around density. So, that's not one of the points when I talk about the colors,
density was not one of the points of concern. Here is what is of concern -- if you look at
the --what the public expects -- and maybe I shouldn't have used the same triangle shape
as a FLUM. Maybe I should have used an amoeba to express what I'm trying to say here
so there is no confusion. But the issue is if you look at the east -- the west-east density
transition we are good. You see this gradual all the way up to the neighborhood adjacent
Rockhampton in Boise. We don't have the same -- I live in Hillsdale Creek -- going from
north to south on that west side. That is the issue and that is not in line with the FLUM.
It's like the -- the people that did the FLUM kind of knew that you needed to have a little
transitional density between the mixed use and the less dense neighborhoods just to the
south. Just to highlight that point, going down a little bit, diving into the detail on that --
on that southwest corner. We have --where we have that Cunningham Lateral easement,
the Hillsdale Avenue -- Street and the Hillsdale Creek entry, those all help to a degree to
provide buffering between Centerville townhomes and the surrounding residential homes.
However, this is not enough and for two reasons. One is the extreme difference between
the lots proposed in Centerville, those townhome lots, .055 of an acre, and the adjacent
neighboring home lots, ranging from .2 to .6 almost acres. That is a huge dramatic
change in density in such a short small space. The second point it has to do with actually
the elevation. Centerville lots, the smaller townhouse lot, sit at a higher elevation to the
surrounding neighborhood homes to the south and to the home to the west. The
townhomes depicted in the application would awkwardly perch over the Hillsdale Avenue
entrance and, more importantly, into the -- the surrounding residential homes. This is the
issue. Finally, I'm not going to be able to -- for the sake of time I -- each one of these
color codes can have its own slide to talk to. I just don't have time to go through that. I
don't want to take up Council's time too much either. But there is important things to
illustrate here and -- and this is -- I don't want to be overly prescriptive. This could be
done any different ways and I'm sure the applicant could be more creative than I can
about how to resolve these issues, but they are still issues and concerns that the public
has expressed multiple times throughout this process. So, in addition to those MUN that
-- following the FLUM for transitional densities, in addition to take into account the higher
elevation and larger lots, the purple there. The red there is all about limiting back fence
density transitions, which CUP does spell out where to put transition densities. It's across
alleyways and roads, not across back fences. That -- that's a point of frustration of
homebuyers if they buy a home and don't realize what's going to be built behind them,
which does happen -- which has happened even in Hillsdale Creek and the other
neighborhoods. The blue there represents the MDR, R-8 zonings. The dotted line within
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the plan is actually the boundary. That's all -- where it goes from R-15 to R-8. So, that
we ask that the public expects that the MDR designation has that R-8 zoning and there
is -- there is not a big difference here between what the application has versus what the
R-8 minimum standards are. We are talking about maybe 500 to 600 square feet
difference or about five to seven feet of -- of street frontage. But it's all the difference in
the world to those future residents. They can use that additional few feet to put a fence
in so they can have pets. They can use the additional few feet so they can put patios in.
So, in addition -- I will wrap up here. So, in addition to those there is other things like
walkways. You can't get to the open park from the north-south areas. You have to walk
all the way around and so opening up, providing a path, walkway, for residents,
particularly those that live down in that lower road, would be super important for the public.
Now, in addition to the --
Simison: If you can wrap up, please.
Phillips: Yes. So, in closing, I'm a software engineer by trade. We have an 80/20 rule
where it's the last 20 percent that's the hardest to get right and to finish, but it's also the
last 20 percent that makes all the difference in the world. Stepping back, coming out of
this magical world where everything is right --we are --we are at that-- almost 20 percent,
but not when you take into consideration all these external concerns and points of
frustration, we are back to like 20/80.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you. I appreciate this. You put a lot of work into this. My question for
you is -- is -- is the concern -- if you go back up to your first slide, is the concern the
location of where the mixed use neighborhood -- oh, sorry. The -- there we go. Is it the
concern the location or is the concern that you don't want anymore than eight acres of --
of mixed use neighborhood versus medium density residential? And -- and I want to
clarify that, because staff has already stated that they are using the mixed -- the medium
density residential criteria even for the residential in the mixed use neighborhood area.
So, I guess I'm just not understanding the concern about the locations of -- this slide
doesn't make sense to me if we are using basically the same lower standard for the
density.
Phillips: Yes. So, I will put -- what hat do you want me to put on, the -- the magical world
where none of those external -- no magical world. Okay. So, the issue is externally to
this plan we have such low job-to-housing ratios that it causes urban sprawl. I come from
-- I lived in Arizona. I know urban sprawl and what -- what that is. It's when there is a lot
of car dependency within the community. When you have such low job housing ratios
and you put in higher density, what you are creating is a car dependent sprawl. That's
the problem. The plan itself, according to the -- the specs of the P&Z -- this -- density is
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not a problem. It's -- it's -- that's not the problem. It's not even a -- look, there is a location
issue with the MUN coming all the way down to the bordering neighborhood, but, yeah,
that's not a problem. The problem is the external concerns around this area. Time should
be on our side to get this in-fill right.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor, follow up?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: So, are you suggesting there should be more job opportunities --
Phillips: Yes.
Perreault: -- in this project?
Phillips: Yes. I would appreciate more commercial, because in order to -- to increase
that job to housing ratio, to prevent the urban sprawl of car dependency communities,
that's what's needed.
Perreault: And may I ask is that reflective of the Meridian Southern Rim Coalition's
position on this?
Phillips: Great question. I will have to confer with the -- the rest of the -- to do that. This
is probably more of a personal opinion. But with the number of people that I talked to as
well, commercial is important.
Perreault: Okay.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Mr. Phillips, I just wanted to -- if you go slide down -- I think it was one more
slide you had -- no. One more then. Oh, no. Yeah. I'm sorry. I take that back. Go
ahead. Backup. Backup.
Phillips: Yeah. This thing is super sensitive, so --
Hoaglun: Yeah. Oh, yes, it is. It is. I was just curious, because when I heard the
presentation from the applicant's representative, along Rockhampton to the north
apparently they are going to reroute a canal -- a waterway. I couldn't see -- and I don't
think Becky laid out how many feet that is, but it looks like there is -- usually those
easements are quite large and, then, it looks like there is some gradient -- and I have
been out there, but it's been a while. It drops down to Rockhampton. Any idea what the
distance is from that back fence line to their fence line?
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Phillips: What's the size of the lot? I can kind of extrapolate out.
Hoaglun: Yeah. And maybe this is a question for the applicant. I was just curious at that
distance, because it looks quite -- like there is a lot of distance and -- but if the elevation
is -- if you could describe the elevation. Are we talking about this roof line here is to the
base of where their grass would be or --
Phillips: So that the fence line on the entry to Hillsdale Creek hits the roofline of those
houses, if that makes sense. So, there is -- there is a fence line that follows the entryway
of the Hillsdale. That hits the roofline of those houses.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Simison: Yeah. There is a pretty big gradient.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Sure. Thank you. Just to further explore a little bit. So, we have already
invested in this area; right? As a city. We have a sewer trunk shed. We have built -- and
that's one of the most expensive components. We have a huge public park. You have
probably heard in the beginning of the meeting that we are spending another 12 million
dollars in impact fees to build that public park. Clearly this is an area where there is going
to be development. We are planning for that. We have already invested in the
infrastructure -- a lot of the infrastructure for this area. but there are issues; right? There
is issues with traffic. There is issues with schools. What do you think is an appropriate
solution here for what to me actually does sound like a density concern. Maybe not
density specific to this parcel, but what you are describing is a concern about sprawl. You
have people locating their homes in an area where they will have to commute to work.
Do you think that it would be better to get a development tonight that has a lower density
and move forward or are you -- what do you think the solution is?
Phillips: So, the ratio for the -- so, the dwelling -- the job-to-housing ratio -- is that the
ratio; right? So, if you effect a numerator it has an effect. If you effect the denominator it
has an effect and so there is nothing fundamentally wrong to have more -- more dense
building, fill-in work, it just -- you have to make sure that there is jobs that accompany
that. Yeah. Brighton did a pretty good job on that top part of the adjacent property to do
that and the Albertson's right there helps quite a bit as well, but we need --we need more.
Like south -- southern Meridian is like -- the joke is called a food desert, because you
can't -- the restaurants you have to like -- you have to go out of southern Meridian to -- to
go to restaurants. Areas where they have commercials that you have restaurants, for
example, is a good -- good solution there.
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Strader: Mr. Mayor, follow up?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Yeah. So -- right. And, then, part of that balance is as a city we are setting those
future uses in the future land use map; right? And so I guess, you know, a question I
would have is does the addition of commercial into this development give you any comfort
around changing that mix specific to this parcel? Like in a magic world where you could
wave a wand, what if half of this was commercial? Would that make you feel better about
the issues of transition? Right? Because, then, you still have a transition issue, but would
that make you feel better about the transition issues and the sprawl?
Phillips: Well, I will speak personally, just -- I would feel more comfortable with more
commercial, again, to get that job to housing ratio at the right mark, again, to reduce that
car dependent community that we don't want to have. That's problematic.
Strader: Just your insight?
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I don't know if you know this, James, but, you know, in the COMPASS report it
talked about housing within one mile, jobs within one mile, and that's where the ratio
comes as zero point --
Phillips: Yeah. Six hundred whatever. Within the mile.
Hoaglun: Yeah. Jobs within the mile 670. I'm assuming, but I don't know -- and I don't
know if you know. They probably aren't taking in account Albertson's and all the
commercial that will be developed and off commercial that will be happening in those
areas in Brighton or are they counting future jobs?
Phillips: Great question. I tried to dig into that to figure it out. I didn't get a hold of
COMPASS to answer it. If asked any question that we should -- that will probably get
answered as it informs the decision of this plan.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
Dodson: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Yes, Joe.
Dodson: My short answer to that is I believe it is existing jobs, not -- not planned.
Because, frankly, I don't know how you -- how you plan for that. You don't necessarily
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know what those are going to be, especially when you have undeveloped commercial
lots.
Phillips: Joe knows.
Dodson: Sometimes. Sometimes I know things.
Simison: Council, any additional questions?
Bongiorno: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Yes.
Bongiorno: Over here.
Simison: Deputy Chief.
Bongiorno: Somebody asked for that distance between the fence and the other fence
across the way. It's roughly 130 feet.
Simison: I was going to do a hundred, but I didn't want to guess, so thank you.
Bongiorno: Yeah. No. I -- I kind of know how to use mapping, so that's what I came up
with.
Hoaglun: So, Mr. Mayor, what we are saying is all Joes know?
Simison: No. Down there. Those Joes know.
Phillips: I think I have it up on the slide right now. Not all the property is across that street.
There is property right next door to those townhomes, too. Both within the Centerville
and in Hillsdale.
Borton: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Yes, Joe.
Borton: Just --just to comment. I appreciate your -- your thoughts and input on this and
amongst the considerations I think -- this isn't really a question, but just an observation
that you have highlighted well -- is the trade-offs, right, with an expansion of commercial
uses on this property can capture trips perhaps, create employment near the residences,
but, technically, increases the problems with traffic from a pure traffic count; right?
Because it draws folks to the commercial that -- beyond who reside here. So, if you
wanted to have more commercial you might capture trips local here internally, provide
those services nearby, at the same time create additional traffic problems that we are also
trying to address. So, it is a challenge. I guess we are mindful of that -- of those trade-
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offs that come with the idea of mixed use neighborhood and having a larger commercial
component than -- than what's portrayed here.
Phillips: Something that City Council did that was really good -- when we were having
stream -- like pain points because of school issues, capacity issues, with Hillsdale Creek
because of the hokey boundaries, the city put together that -- maybe about a year, year
and a half ago, you sit down, talk with West Ada and it came up with some action items
about what to do about that. I think we now have someone that can provide more insight
back and forth between the two organizations. We need to do the same thing. I don't
know if we already do, but we need to do the same thing for the ACHD. Of the
organizations that I -- I called, that's the one that probably is the one that I have the least
confidence in right now is ACHD. Just reading through the TIF. Like it's --
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you. Along the lines of what Councilman Borton was sharing,
oftentimes in the commercial sector it -- they follow rooftops. So, if there is not a certain
amount of rooftops they are just not going to bring that in and we have an application for
40 acres in the southwest corner of -- of Ten Mile and Franklin. That's a hugely traveled
intersection and that developer was telling us the difficulty in getting businesses to come
into that location and you can imagine the amount of traffic that flows through that area.
So, it's not just about -- there is a desire there, but -- but no applicant, this one or another,
is going to build commercial space for it to sit and -- and they are not going to -- and so I
-- I completely understand where you are coming from. That's -- I'm not contradicting
your idea on that. It's just it's -- it would really be one of those things where the decision
becomes that this would need to happen in the future -- later in the future when there is
more rooftops in the area, whether they are here or whether they are elsewhere, before
we are going to get that kind of commercial to housing ratio.
Phillips: It sounds like we need a good marketing for the city that highlights that point --
that really low job housing ratios to say, hey, not only that, but people are working remote
now, so you have these built-in customers, if you pump -- if you put down businesses
here in this area.
Simison: All right. Thank you.
Phillips: Thank you.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Kacie Hergert. She is on Zoom. Kacie, you can unmute
yourself.
Simison: Kacie, if you --
Hergert: Okay.
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Simison: -- can state your name and address for the record and be recognized for three
minutes.
Hergert: So, my name is Kacie Hergert. I reside at 5305 South Hill Farm Avenue in the
Century Farm Subdivision. Can you guys actually see me?
Simison: We see a picture, but not you personally.
Johnson: We just have you unmuted. We don't have you on camera.
Hergert: Okay. Perfect. All right. And so I have been an Ada county resident for over 15
years. My family moved to south Meridian in July of 2018 and I wholeheartedly get the
appeal of raising a family in the Treasure Valley and more specifically in the City of
Meridian. We are all witnessing unparalleled growth, but there seems to be this false
notion that we can develop our way into sustainability as a city and that's just simply not
true. I want to address the impact that the Centerville development will undoubtedly have
on emergency response times. BoiseDev recently published a story addressing
emergency response times in Meridian and Meridian Fire Department Chief Kris Blume
was asked if the addition of Fire Station 7 and Station 8 would resolve the delayed
response times Meridian residents currently face when emergency personnel is needed.
Blume said it will help, but it won't fix. The reality is the City of Meridian has experienced
such explosive growth over a very short period of time that the public safety, as well as
all public services, are stretched to keep up with the growth and as new developments go
in that bring new people to the community, which brings more needs from the city
services, as well as fire and the police departments. The location of the emergency and
its proximity to the fire department doesn't solely determine the response time. Several
factors determine how quickly crews can arrive. National and local standards put into
place also affect how quickly firefighters can respond and something I learned is they
abide by OSHA standards, which is two in two out. Uniquely to Meridian and Ada county,
fire engines are staffed with three people. So, that means if they go on a call and they
are required to go into the occupancy, they cannot until a second unit shows up, because
you have to have two firefighters on the outside, two on the inside in case any of them
need to be rescued. He also goes on to state that more than 80 percent of the calls that
the department-- the department receives are medical emergencies and according to the
American Heart Association brain death and irreversible damage can happen in just four
to six minutes after an incident, making response times critical. I want to speak a little bit
personally here. On August 23rd I experienced firsthand just how critical emergency
response times can be. Driving home for a routine wellness track with my six week old
baby, a car ran a red light at the intersection of 27th and Main and we collided at 35 miles
per hour. Police were on scene in four minutes. EMT six minutes. I will never forget
being on the phone with that 911 dispatcher begging her to do whatever she could to get
that ambulance there as quickly as possible. When your child's life is in danger six
minutes is an eternity. Undoubtably you will be asked by the developer tonight to focus
on the facts and not the emotions, but the facts mean nothing when someone's life is at
stake. I sincerely hope -- I will wrap up here. I sincerely hope that none of you guys have
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to experience the level of helplessness and sheer terror I did in a moment after my
accident, but I can't help but think if that accident had occurred closer to my house would
my outcome have been different. I ask that the Council deny the Centerville application
and allow the city to focus on the necessary infrastructure needed to sustain and control
residential growth, strategically expand commercial growth, and provide Meridian citizens
with the quality of life that I think we all deeply desire. Thank you.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you, Kacie.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Jarrod Galm.
Galm: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, my name is Jarrod Galm and I live at 3868
East Woodville Drive here in Meridian. I'm representing my family and other neighbors
to oppose the proposed Centerville community. I'm going to speak to you about how this
project will affect schools now and in the future. West Ada School District faces significant
challenges as it grapples with the explosive population growth our area has experienced
in the past several years. In these proceedings Engineering Solutions paints a romantic
picture of more schools being planned to accommodate area students. Sadly, those
schools are planned, but there is no funding to pay for their construction without relying
on ballot initiatives for levies. There is not currently an elementary school under
construction in south Meridian to help alleviate overcrowding. Home values have
skyrocketed recently and as a result property taxes have risen as well. While we would
all like to say that we are going to do it for the children, be noble and vote to accept
property tax increases to pay for new schools, reality is most residents probably won't.
Yes, a levy extension for West Ada narrowly passed in the most recent election, but those
funds are for operational purposes, not for building new schools. Hillsdale Elementary is
across the street from this proposed development and last year it was beyond capacity
to adequately serve students and had an enrollment cap in place. Earlier this year that
cap was lifted due to a boundary redraw, but the school is faced with overcrowding again,
with another cap eminent forcing children who live within the walk zone to be bused to
other areas schools. This is not good for traffic, the environment, or the children. It's
important to know that Hillsdale Elementary, unlike other schools, does not have the
physical outdoor space to add modular units or portable classrooms to accommodate
more students. Once it reaches its cap there is no room for growth. The district will have
no choice but to bus kids elsewhere as they have done in the past. If you look at the
school impact table, Lake Hazel Middle School and Mountain View High School are
already over capacity this year and will be beyond their capacities for years to come.
Using the district's formula to estimate the number of new students needing
accommodation, the development would bring in 97 students, putting Hillsdale at 105
percent of capacity, Lake Hazel Middle at 108 percent, and Mountain View High at 121
percent. These numbers do not include the current construction occurring in Sky Mesa,
Lavender Heights, The Keep, East Ridge, Orchard Creek, Shelburne, Calistoga and
Century Farm. Based on these developments and using West Ada's formula, another
200 or so students will be residing within the boundaries of Hillsdale and other schools
shortly. As is evident, these schools will not be able to support the influx of students as
area schools eclipse capacity, the quality of education diminishes. The applicant may
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suggest that Owyhee High and it's new charter school located in north Meridian will
alleviate some of the burdens, but that isn't the case. The charter school will draw 300
students from all over the district and Owyhee serves students in western Meridian many
miles from the development and Mountain View High. In conclusion, I understand that
the state drives education funding and that local leadership believes it is powerless to
help. That's not true. It's incumbent on local government to manage growth, relieve the
pressure on our education system until the state can deliver educational resources to
accommodate growth. The buck stops with you. I'm not against development or
progress, but I am against a developer trying to alter a plan that was thoughtfully
established by the city to manage growth. The Centerville Subdivision as presented
doesn't fit with the existing south Meridian neighborhoods or the spirit of the city's master
plan. I implore you to deny it.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Thank you. Is it Mr. Fallen?
Galm: Galm.
Strader: Galm. Thanks a lot for coming before us. One of the last comments you made
was that you don't feel like this development fits with the neighborhood. What would
make it fit with your neighborhood?
Galm: Oh, I think it's -- you know, there is no high density, you know, townhomes or
apartments in that area and I think that the zoning with, you know, single -- single homes
-- single family homes, which much of that area is comprised of, would be a better fit. I
do agree with --with James, his assessment that, you know, more commercial specifically.
I think, you know, food, you know, because he -- as he did mention it is a food desert.
There is nothing -- and, yes, Albertson's is going in, but I think that that area could benefit
from having, you know, a coffee shop or, you know, a bagel shop, restaurant, someplace
that -- where people could walk to, go sit down, have a cup of coffee with their neighbors.
You know, having a balance between those single family and commercial like that I think
would be more in line with what the applicant is proposing.
Strader: Thanks. Yeah. I think one of the things that's hard, right, is -- I think to Council
Woman Perreault's point, you are going to typically see commercial come after the
residential is built out. It's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing. We are living in one of
the most overpriced housing markets in the country right now. I mean you touched on
home values. You know, how do you personally balance that trade off between, you know,
housing affordability and -- and the school overcrowding issue? We have been told by
the West Ada School District that they will continuously redraw their boundaries to
address growth. Maybe we will get more detail on that tonight. If you felt like the
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boundaries will be adjusted regularly, does that give you more comfort in terms of seeing
additional housing in your part of Meridian?
Galm: I would agree with that. I mean I think -- you know, the problem that I have is, you
know, when you have a school in your community and, you know, kids are being bused,
you know, several miles away that that -- you know, that kind of upsets the apple cart, so
to speak, and kind of, you know, limits your time and, you know, causes all sorts of other
issues as I alluded to. You know, the -- the district has to accommodate growth and, you
know, it's basically you are -- you are playing -- you know, it's like a shell game, you know,
how many kids can you fit into, you know, this area. Okay. Next year because of growth
we are going to move people, you know, over here. You know, I don't envy the position
that the school is in and I understand -- you know, obviously, house values are probably
not going to come down and, you know, there is a need for affordable housing, which,
you know, Challenger is known for providing. I'm not against that, like I said. But, you
know, again, it's finding that balance and being able to provide, you know, those -- those
resources that kind of suit the community.
Strader: Thank you.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Respectfully -- and I appreciate, before I say this, everyone that is here,
because without public testimony it actually makes ourjobs harder. We need to hear from
the public about what's happening in your neighborhoods. I'm going to play Devil's
advocate a little bit. There are many times when this Council has made decisions
progressively, despite information we might have received that was a little bit on the -- on
the -- on the border, like it is here, where, you know, yeah, we have a little bit of
overcrowding, but we think it will figure itself out based on information that we receive
from the district or -- or whatnot. Just as an example, a lot of that area those decisions
have been made and many of you may not even have homes in that area if Council hadn't
made a decision to proceed with building when it wasn't perfect and I'm not advocating
for this project, I'm just saying that there are many times when we make those decisions
when it doesn't fit perfectly and it has benefited many residents that live in that south area.
So, we are -- I'm hearing you, we are hearing you, but we would love for it to fit perfectly.
We would have like half an hour meetings every week. No. But as -- as for the -- the
commercial element as well, the tough part about it is we don't have any -- we can say,
yeah, okay, you can put a commercial building or, you know, daycare, whatever, we don't
--we don't have any control over what ends up there. We don't have control over whether
it's a coffee shop or whether it's a restaurant or -- we don't. It's just -- that's not in our
purview. So, just wanted to share that with you, because I think there are some folks that
truly believe that we -- we have control over the actual businesses that go in those
locations and we don't.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
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Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I just wanted to respond -- editorial comment, Jarrod, that last part -- you know,
the state will figure out -- you know, figure out how to -- how to fund schools and -- and
we are talking about a legislature that last session worked on trying to fix property taxes
to lower property taxes and what they did in House Bill 389 was on new developments
and new annexations, they cut their property taxes by ten percent that they -- they would
pay. They exempt the value out. So, they don't have to pay property taxes. This is new
growth and we want growth to pay for itself and so we take impact fees, we will build a
new fire station up the hill, but to fund it to pay for the firefighters that will be there,
everybody has to pay. Well, all of a sudden this new growth they aren't paying their fair
share. So, I know you put your faith in the state to fix it. I don't so much. So, just to --
just to let you know. Don't be disappointed.
Galm: I understand.
Simison: Council, any additional questions? Okay. Thank you.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Amy Johnson. Okay. I combined you both. So, who signed
in online? Who had the presentation? Okay. Amy -- so, Amy, come on up and, then,
Amy we will get your presentation next. Apparently there is two Chris's as well, so --
A.Johnson: I actually think she can take all the mass a-mails that I have been getting
every day. If I can send those to that Amy Johnson I would appreciate it. All right. So,
I'm Amy Johnson. I am the West Ada School Board trustee representative for zone two,
which is where this subdivision is located. I want to make very clear I'm not here
representing the board. This is not a board testimony. This is me as an elected official in
the zone and I'm here because the community asked me to come. So, I haven't done this
before. I'm going to speak a little bit to the school information. I'm going to speak a little
bit to the property information. So, I want to give you --
Simison: Amy, could you state your address for the record.
A.Johnson: I'm going to give you the West Ada address, because I don't want mine on
public record if I don't have to. So, it's 1303 East Central Drive, Meridian, Idaho. 83642.
1 want to give you some data -- specific data. So, I don't know if you all got to see the
West Ada letter that came in, but I'm going to give you the data on Hillsdale, Lake Hazel,
and Mountain View as of today for enrollment. Hillsdale Elementary is 641 students. That
is roughly 59 students under capacity. Mountain View High School is 2,374. That is a
little over 200 students above capacity. And Lake Hazel Middle School is 1,049, which is
49 students over the program capacity. That is the highest capacity we can put in the
building when I talk about program capacity. But there is some additional numbers in the
letter that I think are really important to look at, because those are today's capacities.
Hillsdale Elementary has 1,556 planned students coming to it in the parcels that you have
already approved. Lake Hazel Middle School has 1 ,479 students coming to it in the
parcels that the City of Meridian has already approved. Lake Hazel Middle School also
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takes parcel approvals from the unincorporated area of Boise and that number is not
counted in there. That's City of Meridian approvals. There are 3,170 students anticipated
to come to Mountain View High School in the parcels already approved by this Council.
So, that's what's coming at us. Now I want to tell you about what's in the pipeline to help
with those students. Nothing. We had a bond available and ready to go prior to COVID
hitting. We had to pull it back. We did so. Blue Valley Elementary was in that bond. It
is not funded today. We will probably have to redo the drawings and we don't even know
if we are going to use that location anymore, because the growth now has moved from
where we thought that that would be. So, I wouldn't count on Blue Valley Elementary to
solve this problem. That's where we are at today. That's not your problem and I
understand that, though. But I want you to understand the problem that's coming at us.
What we have done to solve it -- in the meantime we redrew all the boundary lines. We
removed the cap on Hillsdale Elementary. We maximized the capacity that we all talked
about a year and a half ago. That's why there is 50 seats at Hillsdale today. Our -- our
student population growth, our -- sorry. Our student enrollment numbers right now are
back up to two years ago, so we are back at 40,000 students. Owyhee High School will
be full in one year. We just don't have a senior class right now at the level that we need,
but one year we will get there. So, that's where we are at today. I wanted to just mention
from a system standpoint, the -- I will -- I will finish up.
Simison: Could you, please, expand on this for another couple minutes, because I'm
really curious.
A.Johnson: On which -- on which one?
Simison: All of it. Just keep --
A.Johnson: All of it? Okay. All right. So -- and, you know, I guess I had -- I sat here and
I listened to you say 12 and a half million dollars of impact fees for a park expansion and
I just about like fell out of my chair. I had no idea what happens at a City Council meeting,
but we just barely got 14.7 million from a community much larger than the City of Meridian
and it passed by 52 percent. So, that's -- that's what's facing -- and I'm only talking about
the south Meridian portion. I'm not talking about the north Meridian portion and I'm not
talking about the other areas of the West Ada School District. I only looked and focused
where this subdivision goes into play. This development, while it isn't going to hurt-- solve
the problem, adds to the problem and it also on top of that it goes above what we thought
would be in that usage area. So, when you ask the question what maybe would be a
better opportunity, a low density, commercial space are both great answers. But timing
is also one of the answers. So, what I -- what I am sitting at when I saw these numbers
-- I actually got them today, because I was thinking I'm going to come in here, as holy
cow, I don't know how we are going to deal with this, because we -- we don't have
anymore capacity even to bus kids anymore. We had it two years ago when Hillsdale
was capped. That's not available in south Meridian anymore. That's gone. So, that's --
that's where the school district is at today. I would ask you to consider more than just this
development in your kind of thinking going forward. I think we have some bigger
conversations to have, but in this case this development doesn't necessarily fit the area
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as designed. I would tell you one other thing. There is a daycare already located at the
YMCA right there across the street from where this event will go. There is another one at
Sienna Elementary and there is another one just down the street at the corner of Amity
and Cloverdale. So, the daycare facilities in the area -- there is a pretty good access at
that point and, then, the traffic light -- or the, sorry, the crosswalk where that subdivision
is at and it goes across the street to the YMCA is great, because that's there, but there
are no sidewalks coming down that side of the road for the students, then, to walk down
the road to the school. The only way they will be able to access is go all the way around
the school or go down the backside of the library -- little pod library that the Meridian
Elementary-- or the Meridian library has there today. So, I just kind of picked up a couple
things that people testified to to give you some information and I will kind of go from there.
Simison: Thank you. Any question --
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Okay. Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Thanks, Mayor. First, Amy, thanks for being here. I think in the eight years
have been on Council this is the very first time that we have had an elected representative
of another agency come and testify and I think you have provided, at least for me, some
added flavor and context for this particular application. My question for you is the Council
received a letter from city staff last week that showed that the district is currently at 88
percent of capacity. Is that a number that West Ada is using publicly? Is that a number
that you are aware of? And because the numbers are a little bit different from what you
shared tonight than what we received in that letter, I'm just curious if you guys have a
number in terms of what your capacity is districtwide.
A.Johnson: Can you clarify for me -- staff from West Ada or staff from Meridian City
Council?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Thanks. Amy, appreciate the question. From City of Meridian staff.
A.Johnson: Okay.
Cavener: But we used that data from West Ada staff.
A.Johnson: I would have to look into it, Luke. I will tell you this: I asked them to pull me
a copy of the letter and when I asked -- we actually are going to have this conversation
internally. We sent the strongest letter we possibly have on this subdivision -- or in this
development approval. I have read it. I don't think that we are giving you enough
information at this point. So, when I read it we were having a conversation about what
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the strength of our letters will look like going forward and that's not to say -- I'm not -- I
don't want to make that, hey, we are against the development, because that's not to say,
but I think we need to provide some good quality information in some of those letters,
especially in situations like this and two years ago we were not in this situation. We had
a bond we thought was going to come forward. We wouldn't have said the same thing
two years ago. But we can't -- I can't say that today.
Cavener: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Simison: So, Trustee Johnson, just curious. You talked about the numbers. We know
some of that-- there is a charter school planned in south Meridian. I -- I know you weren't
going to take that into consideration for your numbers, but I assume that there will be --
because they can come from anywhere. There is no guarantee that they are just going
to come from this part of the community, but do you know what the planned enrollment
figure is and through what grades for the charter school that's planned in the Brighton
development and how it would -- in theory if it one hundred percent took away from this
area's growth, which we know it won't, but --
A.Johnson: I believe the numbers given earlier by the applicant were pretty close. It will
be K through 12 at full build out. I actually am super supportive of that school and actually
put the connections in place, because it's a way we can help solve some of our capacity
issues, so -- but the numbers I just gave you it won't even hit 20 percent.
Simison: Okay. Well, just want to confirm that that was accurate information.
A.Johnson: Close -- close enough. I won't split five or ten student hairs.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: If Trustee Johnson could stick around, but do we have Meredith -- or Miranda?
Oh, my gosh I'm like losing my marbles tonight. Do we have her here to talk about our
analysis of the West Ada School District numbers?
Simison: She does not appear to be.
Strader: Okay. Yeah. Because I -- I think the disconnect and what I'm -- what I want to
try to work through at some point is we have our own data that takes the parcels that have
been approved and, then, applies a bunch of assumptions about a certain amount being
delivered per year. Ah. Thank you so much. So, we end up with our own estimate after
permits and development, let's zoom into the footnotes, if the person driving the bus can
get over to footnote three. Yeah. So, this is our analysis that I think our city is doing of
all the same parcels that you guys are aware of, but we are looking at historically not all
of these are going to deliver at the same time; right? So, realistically, if it's -- you know, I
think for Hillsdale 1,500 -- that's a huge number, but I think where we all need to get
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alignment is, okay, what is a realistic amount that we think will be delivered per year and
an absorption rate that is sustainable? But I don't disagree with you at all that that's a
huge number and I guess my question would be is that number outside of what the school
district planned for and how far outside of that number is it if it is for your long-term
planning purposes?
A.Johnson: Yeah. So, we are in the process right now of looking at our long, term facilities
plan. We have got some new trustees coming on that will be part of the process. So,
you know, I wanted to speak a little bit and clarify the testimony earlier on that I don't think
that we can commit to what the developer agent had said yet, because we are really
looking at that. You know, preferably, obviously, elementary schools and community
neighborhoods are our preference. Let me speak a little bit to kind of the numbers as we
look at them, because I can look at this and I can see the analysis, but until I have dug
into it I wouldn't know. So, roughly, West Ada School District prior to COVID -- and so we
-- you know, we have got to kind of go with the old trends -- grew on average of 600
students in total per year. So, our net growth would be 600 after graduations and
everybody moves up; right? So, what that looks like is, basically, we would need a new
elementary every -- every three years. Sorry. Three to four years. A new middle school
every four to five years. And a new high school every four to five years. Roughly is kind
of how those numbers pencil out. We have never hit that category in any of the bonding
structure, so -- but when I say that 600, 1 think that gives you an idea. You figure -- so
take Hillsdale. It's going to move about a hundred students every year into like Hazel
Middle or Victory Middle and, then, those two middle schools are going to move 300
students each into the high school and the high school is going to graduate about 500.
So, net -- net we are going to see some growth of about a hundred students every year
in that one high school, if you think about kind of how that -- so, these numbers to me
look a little bit low. Hillsdale Elementary from enrollment to what the letter you got in July
is now up 30 students in less than six months and -- and I look at what's approved out
there and I think Mr. Galm gave you a lot of it. I don't see how it's not -- it's going to be
60 students a year. That's just not -- that number doesn't even work for me just using the
quick math. Especially when the density of -- we just figure 80 percent of the houses in
a single family unit will have kids coming into the school system. I will tell you there is
one thing in the formula that I saw in your documentation, which, by the way, I have read
and I have never done before -- is that on a multi-family unit right now we are estimating
only ten percent of a multi-family unit actually produces kids into the school district. I say
that figure seems a little off. I'm not sure why that calculation is the way it is. You know,
if you go to an apartment complex or a townhome I would be surprised that only one out
of every ten townhomes or apartment buildings has a student in them. So, I -- and,
actually, Marcy Horner brought that up to me when we talked about it a couple weeks ago
and I think her and Miranda are looking at that.
Strader: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
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Hoaglun: Amy, I want to make sure when -- when we have to pass a bond levy in the
school district it takes two-thirds and -- to -- to tax people and to build schools. Is there
-- and I'm just concerned. We have tremendous growth throughout this community, but
some areas more than others and south Meridian is one area feeling really the brunt of a
lot of this growth. I'm concerned that -- so, we need schools out there. You run a bond.
Well, people in Eagle and Star and maybe even north Meridian -- oh, we have a new high
school, we don't need to support that. I don't want to raise my taxes and now all of a
sudden it's -- it's upside down. You don't -- definitely don't get two-thirds if even a majority.
So, what -- I guess I'm going to ask a loaded question, because I guess being -- being
the longest tenured in this community on the Council -- I moved here after fifth grade and
I have noticed throughout the 51 years that there has to be a great deal of pain in our
school system before people will pass a bond and I know you haven't been on the school
board that long, but what are your thoughts about that? Is that a true statement? Is there
a way we can avoid that pain? Because we could shut down growth supposedly --
although, you know, we might be subject to lawsuits, but it makes it difficult to make things
happen sometimes without a little bit of pain. I don't want to inflict a lot of pain, but you
do want to have things move forward. So, thoughts, ideas, help?
A.Johnson: So, two things. One, south Meridian's one area. North Meridian, Star, is the
other and, actually, it's worse than south Meridian and the Mayor of Star has actually
shared that pain and his thoughts on how to help move some different funding formulas
forward for managing growth. I agree with you, historically people had to feel a little bit
of pain from a bonding perspective. Here is where I think it's different now than ever
before. First of all, during COVID we experienced some pretty expansive growth in this
area, more than I think we all would have expected; right? I mean -- so, that coupled with
the fact that we couldn't run a bond really in that time frame actually exacerbated the
issue today to even more of where we would have normally been. So, think about it this
way: We had this massive growth, we didn't follow our normal pattern of a bond every
three or four years, and now I don't know -- I will be very honest, I don't know if we even
are able to get one passed in the next year. So, what I think used to be a little bit of pain,
we are all going to experience a significant amount of pain if we don't think through how
this -- how we manage the growth, how we get the funding and how it all goes together
and I don't think it will be just the schools, I think that communities will experience some
pretty significant pain just based on those numbers and the fact that it takes us three or
four years after a bond passes to get a school open. So, that's -- that's when a new
school would be able to open.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Good to see you,Amy. So, we -- over the past couple of years we as a Council
have had a lot of conversations about will the -- will the school enrollments return to pre-
COVID numbers and, you know, we -- nobody's known, really, until this year. So, are you
sharing with us that -- that the enrollment numbers have returned and are potentially
greater than they were a couple of years ago? My first question. My second is is that
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parents are more aware than ever about how their children are involved in school, from
what they are studying, to what they are wearing, to, you know, their health at school and
personally I think this is the time when you have everybody's attention and when you can
get a bond passed, because people want the best for their kids and they will put their
money there. So, I have a different -- and -- and maybe that's not what you are hearing
from the parents. I have a different philosophy about that. I feel like a bond probably
would have passed with flying colors, because people want to support their kids, because
they are now more aware than ever of what it takes to teach their children. But, anyhow,
so I am curious about the -- the current enrollment numbers and relationships to 2019
and whether they have bounced back or if you are still seeing a lot of parents that are
doing the homeschooling and the virtual enrollment.
A.Johnson: So, a couple -- a couple of things. So, first, our enrollment prior to COVID
was right around 40,000 students, a little over. We are back at a little over 40,000
students. So, we are -- we saw a dip last year, but we are back up in that spot. We also
still have a significant number of parents homeschooling, which means at some point if
they make the decision that will change that number also as well. As far as my -- it doesn't
mean we will run one, it just means when you look at the numbers on the levy, 52 percent,
that's what I'm going off of and, you know, you are right, the awareness, people actually
--when we knocked on doors two years ago didn't even know what a school board trustee
did and now I feel like everybody knows my name. The other thing that we knocked on
doors and got was we need more food and commercial in south Meridian and I got that
as a school board trustee. So, I will share that with you as well, even though I told them
I couldn't do anything about that, so --
Simison: Council, any additional questions? Thank you.
A.Johnson: Thank you, guys. It's nice to see you guys in action. I don't know that I like
being on this side of the podium though.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, Amy Johnson.
A.Johnson: Amy Johnson, the second. 4069 East Tenant Drive in Meridian. I reside in
Hillsdale Creek Subdivision and just a couple things that have been coming up. I actually
have a kiddo in Gem Prep and so I know that proposed thing and they are going to be
just K to five, about 300 students, because they cap it about 60. They have two teachers,
two classes per grade and, then, every year after that they add as it grows, so -- and it's
a lottery based thing, so people can come from all over and get in, so I don't think it will
have a significant impact in the least on this. And so kind of the preface, I oppose this as
it's written. I concur with very much of the public concerns about the overcrowding, traffic
safety, and that this proposal really isn't in keeping with the surrounding neighborhoods
in the area. But in addition to this I want to focus mostly on traffic impacts. I sat on the
traffic commission for the city of Beaverton, Oregon, for eight years prior to moving here.
For reference, Beaverton is actually almost exactly the same size as Meridian and sits
squarely next to Portland, Oregon. We actually had our own traffic commission and our
own traffic engineer, which I would implore you guys to look into and might help really
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with the growth that we are experiencing, because we would have in-house capacity to
do that. But I do feel like at this point the Centerville proposal is still too dense. It's going
to produce too much traffic in an area that's already saturated and can't accommodate it.
They have been using very outdated traffic data that we have already discussed and I
think it's really premature to approve this development without more studies being done.
So, I would actually propose that we pause this and table it, come back to some -- and
get some more data, get more traffic studies that really show the impact of this area. I
sat for eight years listening to people really upset and residents really upset over the
dense subdivisions that didn't properly plan for growth. They had traffic and parking that
really could have been mitigated from the beginning. There is no perfect answer, but I do
think Meridian can do better. Another problem I kind of see -- Hillsdale Lane is a collector.
It's not going to get any wider. Once this division goes -- or a subdivision goes in it can't
grow. So, how they are going to have two left turn lanes -- sorry, I guess I have some
pictures here. So -- well, the first picture you can see is heading south on Hillsdale Lane
towards the -- the elementary school and you can see that it drops down and there is a
blind corner. There is no sidewalk as mentioned prior. So, getting kids safely across and
down to school is actually not going to happen with the proposal as it's planned, but going
back to the fact that Hillsdale is a collector with no plans, there are two left turn lanes, one
for the commercial section in this plan and one just a little bit more going into the
townhomes. It's not-- it's going to queue all the way up to Amity and, then, overflow, even
with that light. People coming up that hill there is blind spots and you are going to end up
getting too many accidents. I -- we sat on the traffic commission and heard that time and
time and time again. I have some pictures. I will kind of go through them in just a minute
here, but, you know, things have actually been talked to, so I won't keep doing it. But,
you know, to exasperate that, parking is a big deal. There are too few spots in this
proposal. The four-plex apartments do not have enough parking period. I don't know
very many -- even single -- single apartments that have enough parking. You know, they
designed 1.2 parking spots per unit. Well, we know that we need more than that and so
parking is going to overflow, it's going to overflow into the YMCA and it's going to overflow
into our neighborhoods. We played Whack a Mole every single month in Beaverton just
getting -- people wanted parking restrictions to keep people from parking on there making
it very very unsafe, so -- and another thing that Meridian does not have is public
transportation. This is not a walkable community, despite all the walkable paths within
their own little community there. We are not going to be walking across Eagle to go to
Albertson's. I mean that's a death wish. So, that's just not going to happen. It's not
walkable. So, I think getting those multi-units and any -- any kind of rentals is going to
not handle that. Can I quickly just go through these pictures really quick, because I kind
of think pictures show --
Simison: If you can, please, summarize quickly, yes.
A.Johnson: Very quickly. So, that one's heading south, like the schools down -- right
where you can see the Hillsdale Creek sign and the Century Farm sign down there. This
next one here -- like -- sorry. The aerial -- okay. Perfect. So, that's kind of an aerial view
of that and that's that pickup. So, you can see how the traffic queues up onto Hillsdale
Lane and it will actually queue up past the YMCA on most days. This is another view of
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the slope that happens there that makes it very unsafe for kids to go down. Kids are
already crossing and on bikes, the paths, walking to and from school and we have seen
too many near death experiences already. But what I'm kind of focusing on are the left
turn lanes proposed over here on Hillsdale Lane. If there is no specific left turn lane for
those to back up and cue that it's just not going to work. It's going to be a complete
nightmare and I would propose a HAWK, rather than a flashing beacon, if they are going
to do that, because it would be more visible based on the slope. So, you can kind of get
-- get a bit of a picture there. Trying to get to -- one more. Oh, yeah. So, you can see
where that's where the sidewalk stops. So, kids cannot continue down. And, then, this
is just a -- after school events people are parking along Rockhampton, which also curves
and slopes downward and so that's the kind of parking that's going to get overflowed by
the townhouses, because that's the closest to it. So, where people are going to park,
they are going to park as close as possible when they don't have any extra parking. That's
all I have.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I have driven through here -- I have had the pleasure of driving through here
when school is starting and getting out and it is scary.
A.Johnson: It's a nightmare.
Perreault: What -- do you know -- I had read in -- I think in one of the public testimony,
but I don't recall the details -- what kind of traffic calming or -- or traffic control measures
happen during -- when school is starting and getting out and is that done by the school
district? Is that done by volunteers? Neighbors? Can you --
A.Johnson: Yeah. So, there is one crosswalk with the little bleep -- the flashing lights
when you push the button with one crosswalk directly in front of the school. That is the
only mitigative measures taken by the school or any volunteers at all. As a parent I walk
my kids directly around and we actually cut through some green spaces within the
neighborhood to avoid walking on the sidewalks, because they are so congested. People
are opening doors, people are just -- you have driven through. It is about 15 to 20 minutes
of just gridlock and, honestly, I think having the turn lanes on this is just going to
exasperate that even further.
Simison: Council, any additional questions? Thank you, Amy. I will take your comments
to being you don't like the roundabout. I meet with Director Wong this week, so thank
you.
Dodson: Mr. Mayor?
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Simison: Yes, Joe.
Dodson: I did just want to clarify really quick and for the benefit of the public, the turn
lanes are supposed to be on Amity, not on Hillsdale. Yeah. There we go. She clarified
for me then. Thank you.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Elizabeth McDowell.
McDowell: Mayor, Members of the Council, I'm Elizabeth McDowell. I live at 3839 East
Fratello Street in the Shelburne Subdivision. I'm here to speak in opposition to the
proposed Centerville Subdivision. I'm a 19 year resident of the Treasure Valley, so I have
seen the explosive growth that's taken place in our area in that time. There is no doubt
that affordable housing is needed. However, south Meridian is not capable of sustaining
this density and speed of growth. It's not the right place and it may not be the right time
as well. The issue that I'm most concerned with is the number of homes in south Ada
county that are solely relying on well water for their households. These are not
necessarily large farms, they are homes on a quarter acre lots built before city water lines
were run to the area. Many of them have recently been affected by the incredible surge
of new development, causing their wells to suddenly run dry. These are wells that have
been adequate for decades. In May of this year Channel 2 news reported on one local
resident whose well ran dry. Drilling companies -- wait lists were eight months long.
Meanwhile, this homeowner would have no running water to his home. A neighbor even
ran a garden hose to the property through his kitchen window, so that this resident would
have some water while he worked to resolve this problem and the cost to the homeowner
to drill his new well deeper would be 30,000 dollars. I don't know about you, but I don't
have 30,000 dollars laying around to dig myself a new well if mine suddenly runs dry
because of overdevelopment. This resident is not the only one who is facing this type of
issue. Channel 2 reported that this resident received over 600 phone calls from other
area residents who were being affected similarly or were concerned that their well could
be the next to run dry. Our community is in a crisis for groundwater and this is not just
due to our current drought, it is largely brought on by overdevelopment of what was once
agricultural land. This land used to be replenished -- used to replenish our aquifer through
irrigation and natural precipitation and while you may be tempted to point out that those
of us who bought homes in these developments have contributed to this problem, please,
understand that we bought our homes trusting that the powers that be would never allow
growth that negatively impacts other residents. Idaho Code requires that this commission
deny a proposal that would negatively impact current residents and it's incumbent upon
this Council to ensure that necessary resources exist to support all residents when a
development is approved. We trust you when we move in that responsible development
is taking place and while many of us knew nothing of the serious issues that we are
hearing tonight until after moving into the area, there is no one that I have spoken to who
disapproves of new growth. What we want and what we trust you all to provide is the
growth that's supported by all necessary resources. These resources are lacking in south
Meridian. They go in much more slowly than homes go in. It takes a lot longer to get that
infrastructure up than it takes to get those houses up and that's the concern that we all
have and unless and until there are programs available or funding in place that will help
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these residents when they lose their running water to their homes and the cost and
suffering can be mitigated, it is unconscionable to constitute -- excuse me. It is
unconscionable to continue development in south Ada county and I ask that you would
deny this proposal and I'm not an expert on anything other than what I just told you, so
don't ask me any questions.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
McDowell: You can. I'm just kidding.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I don't have a question, but thank you for sharing that information. We have
heard numerous developments in this area and -- and I have not had a single person that
I know have come before us that owned a property in this area on a well that had concerns
about the water. So, do you know any of those individuals personally? Have they
contacted the city with concerns? Have they asked questions? Because they are not
coming to our -- to our hearings.
McDowell: I learned about this -- this individual that I have spoke about specifically
through the NextDoor app and I followed his story through the months that it was reported
on Channel 2 and from what I understand it isn't -- and through realtor friends that I have
as well, that it's a large problem throughout our whole area. This is not just a single
homeowner who had an issue. I know that he was in the process of trying to contact
every available resource and it was running into dead ends everywhere and I know his
name, but I don't know him personally, but I have followed his story. That's probably as
much information as I can give on it, because it was just what was publicly available and
I can give you his name if -- I don't -- he's not here and I have not spoken with him to get
his permission to give his name, but he --just by researching his name and finding all the
articles that I read about his situation, I was mortified that this is a situation that's caused
by too many people moving to an area. If I had known personally that my home was
going to impact any individual this way, I wouldn't have bought a home in that area and it
makes me feel terrible that what we trust to be, you know, development that is approved,
the only thing I have heard everybody say all the time when I talk to neighbors about this
is how can they allow that and this Council is the they that they are talking about and
when growth is happening at such a rate that all of the infrastructure that everybody here
is talking about tonight is so profoundly inadequate for the number of homes that are
going in, that people are beginning to feel a stirring of discontent and that's what I'm
hoping that we can stop, because I -- we are just on the cusp of people being happy
where they live and kind of going off the edge of -- I'm not happy that I live here now and
I have met numbers of people who have moved to the area who have expressed -- I am
sorry that I moved here and that breaks my heart, because I love this area. I have lived
here for almost 20 years, like I said, and Meridian is beautiful, I would not want to live in
any other city and I think that you guys have the ability to build a city and to develop a
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plan that is the most livable, beautiful area in our state and I just hope that we can make
it all balance, you know. That's my hope.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Yeah, Elizabeth, I just want to make sure word doesn't get out that Meridian's
running out of water, because we are not.
McDowell: Okay.
Hoaglun: Having grown up in the country, growing up in Meridian, working, married into
a dairy farm family, our well was 90 feet deep. That really -- it was good water, but when
agriculture goes away -- agriculture is very water intensive. Those alfalfa fields, the corn,
grain, it takes a lot of water. So, it was easily recharged. Ninety feet wasn't a problem.
But when that goes away -- we are actually more efficient with our water now. Residential
yards, they use much less water, but that means we aren't recharging to that shallow
depth anymore. So, the wells have to be deeper. Now, the wells for the City of Meridian
are very deep. They go down, they tap another aquifer level. So, I don't want you to think
they are running out of water. For people who are on wells that means they aren't in the
city --
McDowell: Right.
Hoaglun: -- not on city water, which goes from a different aquifer, but it certainly is --
yeah, the recharge is not happening in the shallow aquifers. So, just to give you the
hydraulic -- and we have people who study and we pay good money for people to study
our water system and do we have enough water for growth and those types of things.
So, yes, it is very unfortunate for those people with shallower wells, because they are
having problems and they are having to go deeper and it is very expensive. So, I feel for
them. But as for our community we are not running out of water. I just wanted to make
sure that was clarified that, oh, no, you know, so --
McDowell: There were a lot of issues this summer. It may have just been the drought
where you all had to water at all different times of day, otherwise, we weren't getting water
in our neighborhood. So, I know that was a conversation that I followed on NextDoor as
well with a lot of neighbors really struggling with -- and that may have just been the
drought this year. I don't know. But it's a concern going forward.
Hoaglun: And, Mr. Mayor, yeah, I could go on and on about our irrigation system and how
this valley works and everything, because I was there cleaning ditch because that was so
important for this year and it still is, because that's surface water and we certainly are --
surface water and the drought has -- it's caused some shortages and we should be
concerned about our surface water. Fortunately, we are in a good area hydraulic -- from
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the hydrology standpoint for aquifer water, but we still have to use it. It's a resource we
have to be mindful of and use it wisely --
McDowell: Appreciate it.
Hoaglun: -- so, appreciate it. Thank you.
McDowell: Thank you.
Simison: Council, any other questions? Okay. Thank you.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is George Hoxsey. He is bringing up your presentation for you.
Hoxsey: Mayor, Council Members, my name is George Hoxsey. I live at 4184 East
Rockhampton Street in Hillsdale Creek, just immediately south of the proposed
development and immediately adjacent to the development as well. While I agree with
much of what's been said tonight from other -- other public testimony, I'm going to try and
focus my comments in a little bit different area. There are some related topics, but I want
to not waste your time and -- and, hopefully, focus on a couple of new points. So, the first
thing I want to talk about -- I'm going to focus most of my comments on the northwest
corner of the development and the first thing I want to point out is that I feel very strongly
that the, you know, commercial zoning from -- from its intent is -- is not aligned with the
intent of MUN zoning. I think that's a very important point to point out in terms of a lack
of alignment with the FLUM. The other -- the other point I want to talk about labeled
number one on here was actually brought up, but I want to dig a little bit deeper. I think
we -- you know, we have talked a lot about traffic on Amity. I think the traffic on Hillsdale
and the issues there really needs some -- some focus. I could not find any traffic count
numbers ever done on Hillsdale. I think the last numbers that were done in the area were
about 2018. They used a two percent annual growth rate for traffic on Hillsdale there. I
think that's woefully inadequate from 2018 to where we are today in terms of the -- you
know, the dramatic growth that's happened in that area. So, I think not having a dedicated
left-hand turn lane, which was a conclusion of the TIS, I think is absolutely incorrect. It --
without a left-hand turn lane we are going to get massive bottleneck of traffic coming off
of Amity onto Hillsdale and trying to come into Century Farm, trying to go to Hillsdale
Elementary, trying to go to the subdivision Hill -- Hillsdale Creek. Secondly, along a very
similar point, the new proposed entrance to the commercially zoned area there labeled
number two, way too close to the intersection from my perspective. You are going to get
massive backup. I actually thought that was going to be a right-in, right-out, which I was
still concerned about. I heard tonight that it is not a right-in, right-out. Now, I'm even more
concerned about traffic backup there. I think -- I think we are completely missing Hillsdale
Road or Hillsdale Avenue there in terms of the left hand turn lanes. A critical point that I
think needs to be focused on. What I would propose would be kind of what's outlined
here in the red area; right? This is more in line with the FLUM from my -- from my
perspective. To earlier comments I think it makes a ton of sense to move some of the
commercial along Amity, as opposed to more of it along Hillsdale, and I also think that I
-- you know, I would like to see this area that -- you know, the MUN district -- a true MUN
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from its intent in terms of neighborhood retail, neighborhood businesses, where the
community can gather and have a sandwich or an ice cream or, you know, a coffee or
whatever with a plaza; right? I have looked at those cut sheets. That's a very different
intent from a zoning perspective than from a true commercial zoning perspective. Just to
quickly conclude here. Again, I agree with much of -- much of what's already been said.
My ask is that you would deny the proposal as it's currently planned. I do appreciate the
progress that has been made through lots of effort from the community and working with
Engineering Solutions, so I think we have made progress. I don't think we are where we
need to be yet and you can see from my bullet points there, but I know my time is up.
Thank you for your time.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Okay. Thank you very much.
Hoxsey: Thank you.
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next is Paul Prestwich.
Prestwich: My name is Paul Prestwich. 5249 South Bleachfield in Meridian. Several of
the points that I was going to talk about have been touched on today and that is the future
planning of this area. Somebody had asked about, well, were the future jobs calculated
into the projections and the answer was no. Each of these projects seems to be created
and analyzed in a bubble. So, they are put together, they go to ACHD, they look at
everything, say this is the impact this is going to have on our current roads based upon
the TIS. Now, the TIS that was used here was outdated like they said, so it's not really
reflective of current traffic data. In addition to that, it comes back over to the city planning,
who, then, goes ahead and uses all those same data points to make their decisions. Now,
one thing I have never read in here is what about all of the approved projects. So, the
Shelburne South traffic that's hitting that road, it wasn't included in this traffic study. The
Brighton traffic, it's not there. Albertson's. It's not calculated on this road. So, as bad as
this subdivision is going to be, all that other stuff is already planned. Just like the schools,
we saw that the number of students is greatly over what was anticipated by the Council
and what was pulled by our planning. Now, you guys can only base your data -- or your
decisions on the data that's given and in looking at this I think one of the guys said here
-- and it's true -- one is using .7 children per single family household. Not too realistic in
my opinion. It may be some national numbers, but it's not really realistic for here. As
Amy Johnson said when you are talking about one child per ten units of multi-family, that
doesn't sound very reasonable, unless those are being restricted to just a single bedroom
unit, which I don't think is occurring here either. So, you are looking at impacted schools,
you are looking at impacted roadways, because we are not capturing that data for the city
planners and the commission should be doing that. In addition to this, I just noticed on
one of the slides here that Amy the second brought up, which I think was really telling, is
that as you are going down Hillsdale Road and you see where the sidewalk ends, there
is a bike lane, single white line going down there. As soon as you get to that house and
the sidewalk disappears, that white line turns into a dotted white line, so traffic is going to
be merging into that lane that you are merging children into, because there is no sidewalk
there and that's going down a hill to turn into the school. So, if you look at the, you know,
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picture again you will see that and that's all I was wanting to say. Take into consideration
all of the future planning that's already been approved, in addition to the project that's
before you at this time.
Simison: Thank you. Just a comment, so that -- those numbers that were mentioned,
those are local numbers. We have been working with -- we work with the school district
to establish those numbers based on real numbers. They used to be 1 .3 citywide. So,
you recognize that is a citywide average, that may or may not reflect where -- what will
happen in this area, because some subdivisions generate a lot more children than others,
where others don't. So, just so you understand. We do update those numbers on a
regular basis and those do reflect community averages working with the school district.
They are not national base numbers, but -- Council, any questions?
Johnson: Mr. Mayor, next we have Melissa Phillips.
M.Phillips: I was starting to wonder if I even put my name in to talk. All right. My name
is Melissa Phillips and my address is 4140 East Rockhampton Street in Meridian.
Regarding the Centerville Subdivision, I feel we need more details on the elevations and
fencing. The slides that Becky had to rush through at the end. But those things are
important to me and I wanted to address some of those things. I have concerns with the
aesthetics, safety, and livability of the homes, which are all items in the Comprehensive
Plan, as I will show you. In the past year and recently I have been driving around other
CBH subdivisions just to kind of get an idea of what to expect and this is at Union Square.
It's in Boise, but the subdivision has these townhomes and I immediately noticed the
exposed gas meters and the driveways and I thought that was a safety concern for
accidental vehicles hitting those. There were some that had landscaping, which I think
helps, but, then, it reduces the size of the driveway by not much, but when your parking
is an issue it can be a lot. The livability, quality of life, health and happiness of residents
in Meridian is important to me. I know I personally enjoy sitting outside on the patio with
our great weather. With townhomes and the single family homes with the alley driveways
you don't get those patios. I did find this neighborhood that has patios available for the
R-15 homes, but they are only on the end of the street. So, one on the right and one on
the left and I see one it had shrubs to try to provide some privacy and, then, one,
obviously, they didn't use it. I also have a concern with the lack of covered patios that
CBH puts in their homes. All our surrounding neighborhoods have covered patios.
Obviously, on the left we have CBH homes with covered patios, on the right we do not
and my concern is that when residents are looking for that place to be outside and hang
out they are building structures are using those shade sails, things that aren't as
aesthetically pleasing. I think the covered patios really elevate the look of a home and
that would help just make it look like the surrounding neighborhoods. Fencing. I heard
Becky say real quick about iron fencing, so I am curious to learn more about that, but in
these R-15 homes fencing is not put in. There is a temporary fencing there on the left,
which doesn't match the fencing across the street in the R-8 homes and, then, in the
center here -- this is just one example of many pictures I took where people have their
personal belongings between the homes, which lends itself to theft and I worry about
people coming in and looking for those opportunities. Obviously, exposed trash cans as
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well is not aesthetically pleasing. On the far right this is the same neighborhood, but
across the street in the R-8 homes and this house has been here for almost seven years
and they still have not completed their fencing. So, I wonder what the HOA-- the builders
HOA rules are for that. I do think it's important that we, if we can, have them include the
fencing with the home built and not put it on the buying resident. This was just an
elevation. I appreciate it. I like the varying roof lines, the stone on the front, except the
back doesn't have the same aesthetic appeal and this was the last slide is that in that
Union Square Subdivision on the right you see they have -- I don't know what it's called
specifically, but the inset parking lots and I really like that idea, because it takes the
parking off of the streets and I also noticed there for every nine homes there was nine
parking spots, which whether or not that's enough, it was a one to one ratio. On the left
I have a screenshot of just a little bit of Centerville. There is nine homes there and only
seven parking spaces on the street and, then, my biggest concern -- I have four kids. My
concern is always their safety. I worry -- even though those parking spaces are inset
there for Centerville, they still hide children. So, when kids are playing and they are on
their bikes and families are going for walks, cars hide children and that worries me. So,
just ask that you deny the Centerville Subdivision at this time. It needs time to improve
the density, the safety, the aesthetics and the overall quality of the project. Thank you for
letting me continue.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? So, that's everyone who has signed up in
advance that identified they wished to testify. We did have a few other names that put
their name on the list, but they did not indicate a preference to testify, but if you would like
to provide testimony at this time, please, come forward and state your name and address
for the record or if you are online and you would like to provide testimony, please, use the
raise your hand function. It's looks like the --we already have one person who has already
testified before. Yep. Come on up and you are good to go.
R.Prestwich: Mr. Mayor, City Council Members, my name is Rebecca Prestwich. I live
at 5249 South Bleachfield Avenue in the Hillsdale Creek development and Bleachfield is
the street that is intended to connect to this development, as well as Macumbo on the
Rockhampton side and Bleachfield is an odd street to me, because it starts out at Hillsdale
with a name and it comes in -- I think it's Auckland at that point. It turns to West Lachlan.
It's still the same street and it continues around and becomes Bleachfield. So, it kind of
just weaves in like that and, then, it connects directly into the Rockhampton development.
So, my concern is is that we have a neighborhood with children playing all of the time on
the streets and according to the TIS it's expected that there is going to be somewhere
around 200 to 220 cars a day traveling down that street, whether they go to the school or
whether they go out Rockhampton over to Cloverdale, that's a lot of automobiles and
would like you to just ask yourself if you lived on a street that had over 200 cars driving
down it each day if that would be a street that you would really want to live on. Especially
when you are in a community where the children are playing on the street. Where are
those children going to play? Because it's a very protected area. There is several
questions I want you to -- I want you to ask yourself. Forty acres of land, 219 individual
households, and based on the numbers of two point -- well, almost eight people per
household, that's 613.20 people living on that small acreage. Now, in the entire
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community of Hillsdale Creek, which is about three times that big, there is a -- there is
about that many people and only 125 households and it takes about three-quarters of --
of Rockhampton to make up that amount. So, when you are thinking about whether you
want to send this plan back to the developer or whether you want to approve it, ask
yourself does this plan truly fit seamlessly into the adjoining neighborhoods? And are the
transitional buffers adequate and allow a seamless integration into the neighboring
communities? Will the approval of this project protect the existing residents property from
incompatible land use? And does the development protect the private property rights and
values and mitigate against the incompatible uses that are possible and, lastly-- oh, good
thing I'm on lastly. The mention of Discovery Park has been often as that it being the
community park for us to go to. I have five grandchildren that live in this area and that's
why we are here. Been taking my grandchildren to that park since it was first developed.
We now have to -- I have -- we have two Tittles, four years old now. We now have to leave
the park, because it's so overcrowded and the big kids bump into them and hurt them and
so it's become a park that we can't use very often and from the corner of Amity and
Cloverdale that park is 2.7 miles away. It's not on a walkable street in any direction and I
appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and I thank you for your listening.
Simison: Council, any questions?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Good news. Phase two of the park is in planning, so it will be coming in the
next two years. So, look forward to that, because there is some neat things happening.
So, I have a question and it's not specific to you, it's -- it's really all of the members of the
community here that -- that have stated concerns about density, about proximity of the
homes to larger lots, about transitions between the properties. There is 79 townhome
lots that are proposed and in general there are fewer residents that live in a townhome or
an apartment than there are in -- in some of the larger homes in the Hillsdale area. So,
average home in Hillsdale let's say is 2,500 square feet, you are probably talking about
at least four people in -- in general in one of those homes, where you may only have two
people that live in the townhome. So, is it -- is it -- is it the number of people that is the
concern or is it the -- the proximity of the homes to one another for line of sight reasons
or aesthetic reasons? They are very different things to me, because you can have 79
townhomes with two people or you can have half of that with four people in each home.
It's the same number of people and the same number of vehicles, it's just I guess I'm
trying to get a better understanding of-- of whether that -- if the issue is really the number
of people or if it's how it looks or if it's concern over property values and you don't have
to answer that for all of your neighbors, but if you have anything to share about that I
would appreciate it.
R.Prestwich: Thank you for asking me that. When this -- the Centerville Subdivision was
first proposed I spent a considerable amount of time looking through the Idaho statutes,
studying the city codes and also the Ada county articles of organization and their codes
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and what I really embraced about it was the idea of -- of transitional spaces between
developments where you had walking spaces and places for people to go. The wide
avenues in the neighborhoods and you had open -- it felt open and it felt large and if you
were to go drive into -- down Hillsdale, excuse me, and into Century Farm you would see
there is grass and sidewalks and it transitions and even from the school to Century Farm
there is a large transitional area and everywhere you go there is those transitions. This
development does not provide transitions. I think it was Melissa who showed you the
pictures of Union Square. I, too, went out to Union Square, because it's very similar to
the proposal that they have made for Center -- for Centerville and the objection is -- is
there not enough open space. There is little strips of land and they get to take that and
they need -- and they can say, oh, that's space and we can aggregate all the space
together and it's six some odd acres, 6.2 or whatever she said, and that's the space that
people have to spread out in and to enjoy their walk on and so they are not going to stay
as much in their community as they are going to overflow and try to go to places where
they have more space, especially with families and it's not that townhouses have less and
houses have more, I would differ with you on that, because my neighborhood is full of
many retired people and so is Rockhampton where there is only two residents in each
house. But in Century Farm many of the families have two, three, four, five, six children
and they need space and if you have got little boys you know how that is, you have got
to have someplace for them to run and to play. So, it is, it's about not enough transitional
space, it's not -- it's about not enough separation. You know, a common back fence
between Centerville and Hillsdale Creek is unacceptable. There should be a large area,
completely-- even around Rockhampton, they deserve the same treatment. So, it's about
having the space that's what I love about this community, it's about having places for
families to spend time, because that's what Meridian is all about is family and it's about
enjoying the community and the neighbors and I don't have an objection to growth, none
of us have an objection to growth, but when we read the plan and we read all of these
things that the government has spent thousands I would think -- hundreds of thousands
of dollars on -- in creating, we have an expectation you -- you listened to the community,
you created this plan, and that's what we were going to get when we moved here and I
used to say, oh, I love Meridian. They listen to their citizens. I love it for that reason. But
I don't feel that way anymore. Having gone through this process I no longer feel that we
as citizens have been listened to the way we should and I don't know where the
disconnect is, but we all feel that way and if you would hear what everyone's saying is
people who are worried about whether there is going to be enough water, they don't think
they are listened to and it's a disappointment, because I don't think that you individually
feel that way. I think you feel that you are listening to us and I think that you want to
provide us with the best community that we can possibly have and I know from your hearts
that that's what you want to do. But we get up here and we speak to you, because we
want you to hear that there is a disconnect and we are not communicating it and I
appreciate the time to speak with you and I hope that you all have a good evening and
thank you for spending so much time us tonight.
Simison: Is there anybody else that would like provide testimony on this project this
evening? I see nobody online. So, would the applicant like to come and provide final
comments?
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McKay: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Becky McKay. I will try to
address some of the comments. One of the things that I, obviously, want to stress is the
fact that a lot of effort and time and money goes into your Comprehensive Plan and your
land use map. I have heard a lot of comments that this project doesn't comply with the
Comprehensive Plan, it doesn't match the land use map and that is just not the truth. It
is just not. When we have medium density residential designation and mixed use
residential designation and --and we are coming in exactly with what your staff has guided
us to create what we call a balanced community, then, I don't think we are an error. The
comment was, you know, this -- this shouldn't be here. Well, this is an in-fill property. It's
developed all the way around us. Nobody's put any open space to the east of us.
Nobody's put any open space to the south of us, but I hear comments that we should be.
Can I go back to my -- Joe, can you pop that back up if you would? The comment was
what is the distance between the townhomes and the -- the homes that are there. One
of the things that I did is along Rockhampton I matched them lot line for lot line. Every
single lot line here -- oops. Give me time here to get -- there we go. As you can see,
every lot line for lot line I matched. Their lots are 80 feet wide. Mine are 80 feet wide.
They have lots that range from 9,600 square feet to 11 ,200 square feet. I have lots that
are 9,700 square feet to 13,000 square feet. So, to say that I am not compatible, that
made no effort whatsoever to match their boundaries and their types of lots is incorrect.
I did the same thing along the east boundary. Our largest lots around the east boundary
range from 9,100 square feet to 1 ,300 square feet and a lot of the residents in
Rockhampton, who have lived there for a very long time, thanked me for that transition
and as you can see we transition our zones. We layered our zone, our R-8 and our big
lots that adjoin them and, then, we transition to our smaller lots. I have lots that are 90,
85, 80, 75, 64, 36. We have a variety of lots and as we go to the interior of our
development they got smaller. As far as these townhomes, the question arose what is
the distance. The distance from ours -- this is a collector road. I'm not backing these
townhomes up to a home, I'm backing them up to a collector roadway that is a lower
elevation. But the distance between my townhome and if this house sits at the 15 foot
setback, will be 165 feet. I will be 90 feet from the rear of my townhome to the edge of
the sidewalk. I mean it's -- we have -- we have dumped out 33 percent of our density.
One hundred and eight units. The Planning and Zoning Commission was absolutely
impressed and shocked and said, you know, I don't think we have ever had a project
where the developer willingly dropped out 180 units or 33 percent of their density to
accommodate us and the neighborhood and we did that. And as far as employment, how
many jobs are created in Rockhampton? Zero. How many jobs are created in Hillsdale
south of us? Zero we are creating jobs. We are creating neighborhood commercial.
That's what the whole -- the -- the flex space if you look at the definition it's retail, it's
office, it's small to medium business owners. It is the ability to -- to have different uses
within one building that are accommodated. We have talked a lot about traffic. We were
going to generate 2,600 vehicle trips per day. Well, with the changes we got our vehicle
trips down to 2,055 for the daycare and all the residential, 2,200 with the flex space. If
you look at the trips generated I will generate more traffic if I put single family dwellings
on this whole parcel. They generate 10.22 trips per day. So, my 124 single family
dwellings are going to generate 1 ,2167 vehicle trips per day total at build out. The
townhomes, 6.4. The four-plexes, 5.4. The flex space only 148 trips per day for the whole
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complex. The daycare is 194. So, what we have done is we have lower traffic generators.
The question came up about supporting projects further south and east. We -- we plan
on the signalization of this intersection. You asked -- you have asked me before what are
you going to do to mitigate. We are building a signal. We are building turn lanes out on
Amity. We are not building turn lanes on Hillsdale, as one woman was concerned about.
We are putting in one of those rapid flashing devices at the location of the school district.
I have been dealing with the school district and I guess if -- if Ms. Johnson wants to come
and testify on every single development project, I would be happy that she would do that,
but to single one project out and say that this project is different than any other, because
I have been dealing with her staff for a year now on this project and doing everything that
I can to try to make sure that we are generating the lowest number of kids that we can.
Councilman Perrault made a good point. Townhomes are typically occupied by a husband
and wife. Empty nesters. They are occupied by seniors. We don't see the same
generation of kids coming out of townhomes or out of four-plexes. Single family dwellings
we do. We see larger families. I -- my kids -- I had three kids and I lived in the West Ada
School District since 1987 and since 1987 we have had the same discussion. About
bonds, capacities, and impact on our schools and what can we do and I have voted yes
on every bond since 1987 and I have lived in the Treasure Valley for 58 years and I have
done everything I can to help the district. I have incorporated five elementaries into my
projects, two middle schools, and Mountain View High School. Mountain View High
School was in my project. We brought sewer across the freeway, because there was no
sewer there. I had to get easements from residences to let me take Meridian sewer and
we paid for it to get it through their yards and south across and bore the freeway. So,
have been fighting for West Ada school kids for -- for -- since -- since my career started
30 years ago. They are saying that we don't fit into the surrounding neighborhoods. We
fit in. We have a diversity of residences. A diversity in uses. That's what your comp plan
says. That's what it requires that we do. I have a variety of lot sizes. I went through your
comp plan and I'm looking at the goals and I'm looking at everything and -- and it's saying,
well, gee, you know, you need to have a variety of housing -- housing types. You need to
have townhomes in the mixed use neighborhood. We want townhomes. We want multi-
family. We want commercial -- neighborhood commercial component. I'm doing exactly
that. What we are doing here isn't going to affect wells that are 50 or 70 feet deep, just
as Councilman Hoaglun said. Those shallow wells -- some of them are drying up as we
take out of production the agricultural land that has been flood irrigated. This particular
project is going to be hooking onto the City of Meridian's central services you have got 12
inch water right in front of me in Amity, 12 inch water in Hillsdale, and your sewer line is
right in front of me. All utilities are here. I'm in the priority growth area and this project
fits perfectly with your comp plan. As far as the elevations and the fencing we are going
to be doing wrought iron fencing we are going to be doing vinyl fencing. I have -- I have
18 and a half percent open space in this project and 15 and a half percent qualified open
space and they are telling me, well, what are these kids going to do? Or, gee, what are
they -- I'm -- we have got pickleball. We have got two playgrounds. We have got a pool
facility. We have picnic shelters. We have pathways. We have so many amenities in
here and the one thing that I wanted to do is to compensate for the townhomes and put
them on open space. They are on a smaller lot, but I'm putting them on open space. Your
Commission supported this project. Your staff supported this project. This is a good
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project. I tell you what, we have spent more time on this than any project I have ever
worked on to make sure it's the right project in the right location and to bring down the
number of trips and the impact and have convinced my client to, like I said, get rid of 108
units. I don't have one apartment building in here and I think we have got a good project
and I'm asking the Council to support it. If you can't support this, then, I think you can't
approve anything south of 1-84, because it's going to generate a trip and it's going to -- it
might generate a kid and, I'm sorry, but we are always behind the curve and it's been that
way for 30 years and what we can do to improve the safety out here is what's important
and this project deserves approval. Thank you.
Simison: Thanks, Becky. Council?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Maybe a quick question for you, Becky. Becky, when you -- when you come
before staff in these pre-application meetings -- because I think your point is well heard
about the time, the financial investment to get a project before the Council tonight is no
small feat and so when you meet with staff do they bring caution to you about the roadway
challenges and the school impact, so you are aware of that before you ever submit?
McKay: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener, yes. Those were discussed in length and I did
-- I did multiple pre-application conferences on this project talking about those very issues.
Cavener: Okay.
McKay: And that's why we have to put the light in with the first phase. That's why we
agreed to put in the rapid flashing safety crossing. It was not a condition of ACHD. It was
not a condition of the city. We wanted to be proactive here.
Cavener: Okay. Thank you, Becky. I appreciate that.
McKay: Thank you.
Borton: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Borton.
Borton: There is big issues -- big topic issues that were discussed, but one of the more
narrow one was the sidewalk and the crossing, which I failed to recognize. One member
of the public showed a good picture that by encouraging the crossing it, then, goes dead
end, asking kids to effectively merge into the street where traffic is. So, why would we
want there to be a crossing there, as opposed to staying on that same side, going south
and crossing closer to in front of the school? In light of the sidewalk gap.
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McKay: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Borton, I have been out there at least on six or seven
occasions at different times of the day watching what happens and what I was told by Ada
County Highway District is there is a single family dwelling --
Borton: Right.
McKay: -- that sits right there. The City of Meridian -- and what I was told by ACHD, the
City of Meridian and ACHD, they took -- they -- they owned it, too. Said that they allowed
Brighton to not construct sidewalk along the frontage of the existing home and the person
that lives in that home has a life trust and that it would not be altered in any fashion until
such time as that person either passes or leaves and so there is a gap in the sidewalk.
So, my question was -- and some of the residents brought it up at Rockhampton and they
said, hey, why don't we put -- if you are going to put a pedestrian crossing, let's put it here.
Well, I met with Marcy Horner at West Ada. I talked to Joe Yochum. I talked to -- met
with Ada County Highway District and what I was told was they already have a flashing
light right in front of the school and that the kids from Rockhampton run across the road
and don't come down the sidewalk and come across where they are supposed to and that
even though there is a rapid flashing light, they still have to man it and they said -- the
principal told Marcy Horner that sometimes they have had somebody man -- man it here
for crossings, but they dictated to me that they thought it would be safer to have the
crossing here, which, then, would allow the kids to go to the Y and, then, they would have
to -- obviously, to reverse the existing residents. I can't solve that problem. It was
something that was allowed, which in my opinion should never have been allowed. I have
never had an out-parcel house that was part of my project that we did not construct
sidewalk across, because you are creating a gap in the pedestrian network. But it was
allowed.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Thanks, Becky. That to me is absolutely shocking.
McKay: It is to me, too.
Strader: And frustrating. I just want to say that and I hope we could look into that, because
that's not right.
McKay: Yeah. I -- Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Strader, I -- I brought it up at the highway
district. I said, you know, what -- what can we do to solve that and, you know, could --
could we build sidewalks across there and they said, no, that was part of Dave Turnbull
and Brighton's deal and it's a living trust and we can't -- we can't touch it and, then, at
Rockhampton their sidewalk just stops and, then, they have landscaping. So, I'm going
to have -- they -- I asked ACHD how did that happen? How -- why did they not extend
their sidewalk to their north boundary and they said, well, we don't know, they should
have. So, we have to do that to make the connection to the Rockhampton sidewalk. So,
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there were some -- I guess errors that have taken place. I'm trying to fix them. I'm trying
to mitigate them the best I can.
Simison: Council, any further questions?
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: I have got a question for Kristy with ACHD, but I also would want to give Becky
a chance to respond. Is now the appropriate time?
Simison: You bet.
Cavener: Great. Kristy, if you are still on and what feels like yesterday, Ms. McKay was
talking about some of the planned roadway improvements in and around this
neighborhood and I'm just curious if you can comment on that. I know there has been
changes and delays due to some budget challenges. I'm just curious if you could give
the Council a -- kind of an update about where those roadway improvements are coming
and when?
Inselman: Thank you, Mr. Mayor and City Council. Yes, I am still on and it does feel like
it was yesterday. Yeah. So, we are in the process of -- it's kind of an extended adoption
of the integrated five year work plan this go around. So, we had done an initial draft and,
then, a budget was adopted in, in essence, the funding that we had anticipated when it
was first developed was not what was adopted and so about 60 million dollars worth had
to be cut out of the program. So, it was redone as quickly as we could and put it back out
for public comment, but what we did here in both public comments that we received on
the initial, as well as this one, was that Amity was a --was a priority corridor. With regards
to the public, we heard a lot from the public that Amity needed some improvements and
widening to three lanes. So, we did and, then, we held five work sessions with our
commission and that was also addressed with the commission, then, as well that Amity
was a priority and so there -- there are some segments that did accelerate. Becky's
correct. Our CIP did have them originally forecasted for further out. But, again, that's
always dependent on development and when that occurs and how quickly that occurs.
So, currently in the draft plan we do --we did accelerate the segment of Amity, Cloverdale
to Five Mile, for design -- design '24, right-of-way '25, and construction in '26. We have
not accelerated Amity, Eagle to Cloverdale, yet, but it is in the program for design in '26.
Amity is a difficult corridor as well, because it is an existing deficiency. So, those aren't
impact fee eligible. So, those would come out of General Fund, so those come out of --
out of a different source. So, those are harder to accelerate. So, I hope that answers the
questions. We do have -- I mean as you know the Eagle Road corridor is finalizing that
construction and we do have the Amity and Cloverdale roundabout. Also in for
construction in '26, along with the road segment.
Cavener: Great. Thank you, Kristy.
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Inselman: Of course.
Simison: Council, any other questions for the applicant or Kristy while she's there at this
time? Okay.
McKay: Mr. Mayor, if I could just make one last statement. Our gross density is 6.01
dwelling units per acre and that -- and I backed out the commercial area, so it did not
skew it and in the R-15 that we are requesting our density is 7.44 and in the R-8 my
density is 3.45. So, as you can see I'm half of what -- just about half what could be --
would be allowed at the maximum allowable density. So, I am not pushing the envelope
here at all as far as what I brought before you. Thank you.
Simison: So, Council, I'm assuming you are going to want to leave -- this open until you
get to a certain point? I will just stay here in silence until you all are ready to start talking.
Borton: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Borton.
Borton: A lot went into even getting ready for today. There was over a hundred letters
from over a year ago, even before the application was submitted, so we have gone
through all of them in preparation and tried to kind of map out the common themes among
all of them. Much more input than a lot of the applications that we normally see. So, that
-- I anticipated that hours and hours of prep work to flow over into today and the great
comments that we heard from the public that took their time to show up here and testify
remotely, as well as live, so thank you for doing that. That's a big part of all of our
considerations. So, that, coupled with tracking the applicant -- and Becky does fantastic
work. She has been doing good work in Meridian for many, many, many years -- require
a lot of work, from my perspective, to try and balance -- and first understand all these
considerations here, really strong considerations. Much broader for me than fence lines
and pathways. These are bigger policy considerations that I found the public bringing up,
traffic, school safety, school capacity, these are some of the more macro issues we deal
with. So, it just, frankly, took a lot of time. A lot of thought. And I have sat mostly quiet
here trying to listen and correlate what's been shared with what we received in writing in
advance and to give that more thought and my initial reaction in hearing the finishing of
the -- the applicant's remarks, it's not a clear cut, obvious, answer for me and that may
not be the most popular, but this one is -- this for me might require some more thought
and -- and not to receive more information, but to consider what has been shared and to
think about it. It's 10:00 o'clock now, we have been going for a little while. No one's in a
rush. So, that's my initial reaction, honestly, is to think about it a little bit. The hearing
could be closed, but I think the applicant's brought up really sound points. Principles such
as -- you know, the land use designations don't equate to a specific zone; right? So, that
principle is not -- we see it all the time and Becky sees it all the time, but it's a -- it's a
unique principle that, you know, a mixed use residential land use designation is not a
zone and it doesn't correlate directly to a specific use; right? It has a variety of types of
uses and commercial is one and so is residential and where is that blend. I could
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understand how the neighborhood struggled with that principle and where that line is
drawn and how -- how much should be commercial and how much shouldn't and -- and
the types of residential uses. I thought there was great discussion in advance of today
on that type of issue, but there is nothing about the --the requested zone that is technically
deficient with what's in the future land use map; right? The requested zones fit those
areas. It's more of a policy consideration of whether or not it's enough commercial versus
residential or should the mixed use residential land use map incorporate a little bit more
-- expand, you know, provide more commercial in this overall project than residential,
which is more of a policy consideration than a -- than a technical code compliance. That
just -- it's just a long winded -- long winded example of why this one is -- it's challenging.
I thought all of that discussion was really good and very helpful. And I forgot your name,
ma'am, but-- but I'm looking at you right now. In the back. Because you made a comment
that -- that -- yeah. It really hit home and -- and what I would hope you take from this
hearing and any other time you ever testify is all seven of us absolutely listen. There may
be times since -- in different applications where there is a disagreement and that's going
to happen. But I don't want anyone in this room or watching to ever get the impression
that we don't listen and try and give some thoughtful consideration. We are balancing a
wide variety of interests. Some of those might be more broader than adjacent
neighborhoods. You know, that might be a very valid concern among many. So, I just
hope that even if there is disagreement you will at least feel that we are really working our
tails off to listen and try and incorporate those concerns and considerations into trying to
make a thoughtful decision and understand if there is somebody that's perhaps upset at
maybe every decision that gets made, but -- but it's not because it's a lack of -- of caring
and listening and we would say that to the developers and landowners who are taking
massive risk and spending enormous amounts of money just to get to this stage of the
process. We are listening to them as well and we are listening to their considerations and
we don't agree with -- with them as well all the time, so as long as you are left with that
-- that's -- that's my hope that -- to the applicant as well, that we truly, sincerely listen and
try and make the right decision. So, all that being said, Mayor, I'm -- I'm providing this
deep context, because I'm not necessarily comfortable right now. I will listen to -- to my
friends up here on the bench and see what everyone else says, but I don't have an abiding
conviction one way or other on this. I would like to give it more thought. So, that's sort of
where I -- where I'm at after doing all of this work. Before today and including tonight.
Simison: Are we at bench because you are in your quasi-judicial role today?
Borton: Kind of. Yes. I mean we are sort of sitting up on a bench and -- anyway, I just
appreciate -- I thought I would share where I'm sitting right now.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: I'm happy to chime in. I -- I appreciate Councilman Borton's comments.
Perhaps an application like this is worth chewing on for a little bit longer. I will share a
couple of thoughts at least where I'm at, maybe if we want to get at least a conversation
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going. I really -- there is a lot of things about this project I -- I really like. I think it does
meet the Comprehensive Plan. To me this screams of like a project that Becky McKay
would bring forth. Super thoughtfully put together, taking into consideration neighbors
and, you know, I think Becky talked a lot about matching, you know, lot lines to try and
have as low of an impact on the neighbors as possible, which I -- I really appreciate. The
amenities are -- I think are really, really fantastic. This -- Becky asked the question about,
you know, residential in south Meridian, if we should be saying no, and I think one of the
things that we have really benefited as a Council is we have received better data. I think
of the letters that -- you know, that we received from the school district eight years ago
that basically just said here is what we think the student population is going to be
generated from this application. We have got better data today and it's getting better
every week. You know, I heard the frustration from many of the neighbors about the .10
students per multi-family. I know -- I think all of us on Council when we first have heard
that have scratched our head as well. That's data that we received from West Ada and
-- and I have struggled with that as well. To me the data, the impact on our streets and
roads and our schools, in such close proximity to this project to me -- I can't be supportive.
As much as I love so much about this project, there are just too many other impacts and,
you know, Becky, I know that you have been a huge cheerleader and a huge champion
of getting schools built in our -- in our community and I think that it's the fact that things
have changed and the way that we have relied on schools to be built in our community
has changed. We can't expect the district patrons to come in year after year and build all
these new schools. As we get larger there is going to be less desire to do that. The way
we are paying for our streets and roads I think has got to change and until I think that we
have got a better plan in place to plan for schools to accommodate the students that these
neighborhoods are going to generate, I'm going to be really hard pressed to be supportive
of--of any residential application that is driving more students into a district that is growing
by leaps and bounds and in this part of town that is so severely overtaxed when it comes
to its schools, I just can't in good conscience be supportive of adding more students to
those schools. So, I'm happy to continue the conversation. I'm happy to continue to
weigh, but I can't see a scenario where I'm going to be supportive of approving this
project, as much as I love it.
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor. Yeah. I want to address one comment, because I thought it was
very insightful and I -- and I completely understand it and I think it was you, Rebecca, who
had said, you know, where's the disconnect and it's something I have had to come to grips
with. The disconnect that I see, that I have had, is -- is the fact that single family homes
are not what I live in and what people can afford anymore. Heck, I can't afford the house
I live in now with the property I have. I don't make enough money. I wouldn't be able to
-- to afford it the value has gone so -- so high. So, when my kids go to look for a house
now it's not going to be like the house I have and that's the hard part, because that's not
Meridian, that's not where I grew up. We had big yards. We have a nice home. You
know, we have space and it has changed and that I think is -- the disconnect is coming to
that realization that it is different. Now, it doesn't mean it has to be bad and we don't want
to accept poor quality and that's why we have done things like increase open space
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requirements for when there is higher density and those types of things. So, I just wanted
to share that thought with you, because I understand it, because I have had to wrestle
with it and especially up here, I see those tall skinny things put together, put together, put
together, I'm like, oh, man and, then, they are approved, they are in the right zone and
everything. That's not Meridian. But it has changed and we may say, well, it's changed
for the worse, but at the same time the economics -- that's the situation we are in and we
have to look at people going it could be that checker who is going to be working at
Albertson's and she is married to someone who works for the City of Meridian and that's
the most they can afford. They want to buy a home and that's going to be it. It's not going
to be what -- what we are in and so that's -- that's the hard part. So, I hope -- I hope that
helps on perspective, because it was -- it was a good comment and it was very sincere
and I appreciate that. That workforce housing is important and so that's why we look to
these mixes, because we just have to -- we have to get people -- I love homeownership.
It's still the way to go. But there are different levels now, way more than we ever used to
have to worry about now. I think Joe touched on something when he had the macro
comment. This -- this is bigger. I wouldn't be comfortable turning this project down and I
also would be uncomfortable approving it, because as you pull back we are now faced
with -- I look at schools. I mean there is -- there is fire, we have got a plan in place, we
are going to be building a fire station out there. It's a couple -- couple years away, but
work has started. But our schools, as -- as I consider that and I had the comment earlier
about growing up in this community and there is always that pressure, always that
pressure and previously we have been approving developments, looking at school
numbers and say we can bus them here and this school is way down, so we can bus
them here. You know, in a free market if people don't want their kids bused -- bused,
then, they can look elsewhere. But if they are fine with that they can --they can live there.
We allow that choice. We don't make that decision for them. But what Amy Johnson, the
first, shared tonight kind of-- it kind of changes that perspective of basically we don't have
any-- anywhere else to put them and that is disconcerting. That's -- that's the tough part,
because is this the tip of the spear, then, in south Meridian or elsewhere? Because if we
take what really has turned into a very good project, you have done some very good
things and listened to the neighbors and done some things to make it work, but yet if we
are still faced with that choice and can't -- and go we can't approve it, that means anything
else that comes before -- the consistency has to be there. We can't say, well, you know,
not this one, but this one's okay. No, we are going to have to be consistent about it and
I think for me that's the difficulty, that realization -- are we to that tipping point where
because of impact on schools are now so great we -- we have to kind of pull back and
that's --that's --that's a --that's --that's a big thing to chew on, because that is a changing
dynamic for Meridian and for our work and for the housing needs that are out there and
-- and it impacts you. You think, oh, great, if they pull back that's great. Hey, they are still
moving here. Demand keeps going up. Those home prices keep increasing. You are
going to be living in a million dollar home and go why am I broke, you know, and the
property taxes keep going up, even though we do what we can to reduce them. So, there
is -- there is that balance there and it's very hard. So, for those of you that this is your
first Council meeting, I hope it gives you some insight what we get to wrestle with every
week. Maybe not to this degree, because I think you are the tip of the spear where that
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realization is now -- uh, maybe we have reached that point where something can't be
done, so -- I -- I don't know. I really don't know.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I really appreciate the discussion this evening. After going through the --you know,
my notes and going over all of the public testimony, written and audio, that was provided
to us prior to this meeting, which, like Mr. Borton said, was hours and hours of studying
and reading. I knew that tonight's application was going to be difficult, especially given
the recent election that we just had and -- and I knocked on a lot of doors and I heard a
lot of people and concerns all across this great city. I -- something we struggle with a lot
-- you know, I -- I -- Becky, your design was thoughtful, especially around the perimeter
of this application. I mean it's -- it's rare. Seriously, I -- I -- I dare anyone in this -- in this
room to look back at an application where someone like Becky has exactly aligned
property lines with existing developments. I'm sorry, that just doesn't happen. If it does
it's extremely rare and it's very thoughtful. Are there tweaks that I would make to this --
this application? Sure. Does it make it a terrible application? Absolutely not. But things
-- you know, things are changing in our community and whether you like it or not, there is
some deep, deep rooted policy decisions that need to be discussed and -- and that's no
fault of anyone. It's no fault of the development community. I mean you can yell at the
development community -- I mean I -- my -- or opponents that ran against this -- this --
this -- this last campaign season, you know, said multiple times that, you know, we pay
too much attention to the developers. I mean -- and that's just honestly not true. It's not
true. What Mr. Borton said this evening -- we spend a lot of time going over this and
listening. It's just a fact. But the point of the matter is is that those who are thoughtful
and those who pay attention understand that the real deep rooted policy discussions that
we need to have and they are related to our schools and they are related to our roads,
two things that, unfortunately, the City of Meridian we don't have purview over, but we --
thank goodness we have great relationships with these partners, regional partners and
-- and they are just discussions that we need to have. At the end of the day what makes
this decision hard, along with public testimony and what's been discussed this evening,
because I don't disagree with what was stated tonight -- is consistency and to me that's
a lot easier said than done. But, you know, our development community spends a lot of
money on these things and -- and the reason why they do is because they expect -- they
can only look back and say, okay, well, this is what code is and this is what the direction
of the city has been going and they make decisions according to advice given from staff
and past applications that have been heard before us. But the issue -- the conundrum
that we are dealing with is now you have to add on the issue --the deep policy discussions
that we need to have with the schools and the roadways and so I agree with my Council
Members, this is a tough one. This is so hard. And -- and I think it boils down to more
discussion and I think that, you know, the public deserves this and I also believe that, you
know, the development community deserves it as well and at the end of the day -- well,
stop with one. You know, we are talking a lot tonight, but you can be -- and it's because
we have so much on our -- on our shoulders and our minds, but our state legislature
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needs to do a better job with how they fund schools and that's just -- they just need to --
they just need to -- they just need a real deep look at this issue, because it's becoming a
huge problem. We have citizens in our state that can't afford their homes. If you look at
-- I mean your property taxes -- I believe in the -- at the city's perspective you are getting
a big bang for your buck, but most of the taxes you pay are for your schools and some of
you -- I look out here -- don't even have kids that go to school and so it's a real tough pill
to swallow and it's really a huge issue and I think I call on our state legislators, especially
the ones here in Meridian, to really take a deep dive into this and figure it out, because
it's becoming a major problem, because people can't afford their homes. I won't talk about
ACHD. Those are my thoughts.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I can give some thoughts and probably along the lines of what some of my fellow
Council Members are thinking. You know, the problem of the balance and what we are
trying to do is we have just two really opposing problems at the same time; right? So, I
just read an article, you know, based on the income here we are one of the least affordable
housing markets now in the country. We have a massive housing affordability problem
and I hear a lot of people move here and they are like don't turn this into California. Let's
not import the problems that they have over there. Well, a big problem they have over
there is they just didn't build enough houses. That's a big part of how they ended up with
that problem. So, I firmly tend to error on the side that in the market we are in, with the
amount of people moving here, we need to build more houses. But, you know, on the
other hand, I think we received some pretty stunning testimony from one of our school
trustees that this is different. Up until now they have moved their boundaries and my
understanding was they have continued to adjust them and that they had capacity, but
the testimony tonight sounded like we are at a game changing moment where we need
to change how we look at things or the framework through which we are looking at
development. I -- I think this development did a good job at transition. I think it -- overall
when it was revised I think it did a better job of meeting the goals in the Comprehensive
Plan. The -- I think overall the development is not a bad development for this part of the
city. I don't think it's appropriate to put a huge amount of apartment buildings here. I was
glad to see that they changed that, you know. So, I think where I'm at-- I think if I approved
this one it might be like one of the last ones I could approve in south Meridian, if I'm being
honest, without having a deeper discussion on what's our plan for south Meridian and
maybe we need to look at our priority growth areas framework and maybe the priority
growth areas needs to adjust based on school capacity. Maybe we need to have some
creative discussions, like far -- farther reaching discussions than this one about, you
know, how to handle building permits if we, you know, have really limited capacity in our
school system and no way to get more. I don't think we are going to solve that tonight.
Like the application I think -- I think the applicant did a good job trying to address the
overall issues. I don't want to see us just stop, you know, building housing. I don't think
any of us wants to see that. I think what we are going to find is that that's going to lead
us to some outcomes where we are just completely unaffordable, even worse than we
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are now. You know, we have got a -- it's a supply and demand issue. I mean that's how
-- that's how you end up in the place that some of our sister cities are in. I don't want us
to go there. But we need a plan I think for this area of Meridian and with the testimony
from Trustee Johnson I can't ignore that at all. So, yeah, I think maybe we need to
schedule some -- on a different agenda some wider kind of brainstorming sessions about
how we want to handle growth in this area. I definitely need to reflect and meditative and
think and maybe pray that might help, too, to think about how to handle this one. But it's
a bigger discussion, where it sounds like we are at a tipping point where we -- we have
tried everything we can to maximize capacity and that's just not where we are at. That
sounds like a different discussion.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I think at the end of the day it's just about smart growth and doing it -- doing it the
right way. I don't know if -- Liz said something extremely important. I don't think anyone
on this dais is advocating for us to stop building homes. I just -- you know. I think that
maybe what we are really -- you know, what we are saying is, you know, more like along
the lines of what Mr. Borton said, we just got to think about this for a couple minutes and
make sure that we are making the right choice. But we -- we probably have a big topic of
conversation tomorrow morning at our -- at our weekly meeting between you and me.
Simison: Yeah. We could. And the old school board, in my opinion, did take on the
position that they were going to work to balance out enrollment throughout the city by
looking at their boundaries and -- and that is one of those things that, quite frankly, from
a community standpoint, they need to do if they ever want to -- if you don't maximize the
space you have no one's ever going to approve bonds for you when you really need them.
So, there is that aspect. But the board is changing. We have two new people coming on.
You have another one maybe in a recall -- who knows what the board is going to look like
in two months and what their priorities are going to be. So, it probably does beg the
question. I know they can change every two years, but we do need to get a flavor for the
new board and what --what is going to be their priorities and how are they going to handle
growth? Maybe the new board says we are not going to go out for bonds ever. That's
not part of our plan. What does that mean? So, there is probably a larger conversation
to be had on this with the schools, especially with the new leadership in the next two
months.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I think that -- I think that it's probably prudent to probably continue this and -- right,
Becky? Yeah. So, I -- I'm looking at -- I'm looking at some available dates. So, obviously,
we have a special meeting on November 30th that's pretty full, stuff that was scheduled
for next week, but we have a bunch of stuff on September-- or, excuse me, on December
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7th. Let me look at this real quick. We don't have just -- Jessica, do you want some -- I
was handed a note that you didn't speak. Do you want to give some thoughts before I
wrap this up? I didn't realize that. I apologize.
Perreault: Oh, good. You know I always will butt in if I have something to say. No, I -- all
of your comments are very well taken and very well spoken and I don't -- I shared a lot
during the testimony this evening, but I don't have much more to add, except that I felt
that same exact struggle that you all are describing and I'm a residential real estate
associate broker, I'm intimately aware of what's happening with housing in our community
and very much feel that need for the additional housing, but as a City Council member
my role is to take into account what's best for our entire city and so, yeah, the struggle for
us is significant. I -- I would appreciate the extra time to make the consideration that as I
was reviewing all of the information for this meeting I felt like that there -- there needed to
be something really significant. That would cause me to one hundred percent give my
support behind the project and it's not because of the project itself, as many of the Council
Members have expressed, we appreciate the significant changes that have been made.
We think the improvements to the plan were -- were good. There is a few things I'm not
a fan of, but that being said, yes, I'm in the same situation. I have got to really think
through where we are and what this means for us and a bigger picture, so I'm in supportive
of-- of what I assume is going to be Council Member Bernt's motion.
Dodson: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Yes, Joseph.
Dodson: Yeah. Calm down, dad. I just wanted to discuss briefly before we do any kind
of motion that in the motion that it also might include any wanted revisions to the site plan.
What I don't want to do is continue it for the bigger picture and, then, go through all the
little things again at the next hearing as well. I want to be able to give the applicant the
same time to address any of those comments as well. I have heard that some of -- some
tweaks might need to be made. I just want to offer the opportunity to the applicant and to
me to have time to revise it, because this is one of -- I don't know how many projects I
have, but too many. So, I just want to make sure that we all have time for that.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Just to butt in with one thing and I don't-- I don't know the particulars of Brighton's
development across the street, but I would hope in the time that we continue this that
someone at the city could contact that homeowner or Brighton or both and knock on that
lady's door and say did you realize that you have hundreds of school kids that have an
unsafe route to school right in front of your house, because you won't let us put in a
sidewalk? I don't know how we missed that one, but that just seems pretty nutty to me.
So, if we could just try to -- try to resolve that that would be great there.
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Simison: Mr. Nary will handle that conversation.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Council Member Strader, so that house is in
the trust and the trust is, then, owned by the Y. So, the Y is planning on a future
development there of some short, which will, then, connect the sidewalk. I know the
property owners. I'm happy to call her. But I don't anticipate she's going to want more
kids walking on the property at this time. But I don't know that. So, I will call and ask her.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Well, I really appreciate you calling, because I think if you just framed that for
her that that's a -- it's a safety situation, you know, I would be surprised -- I think that's a
real community -- yeah. I don't know the details, but I -- I would be shocked. So, thank
you for doing that.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I am -- I am more than happy to, you know, continue this. I think that
we owe it to the applicant and to the public to -- to give some specifics in regard to what
-- why -- you know, I get why we would -- this is a tough one tonight and we need more
-- a little bit more time to think about it. I get that. But is there anything more that this
Council would like me to add to the -- to the motion?
Simison: You know, I -- not that I know that can be added to the motion. I have been
trying to sit up here and wrack my brain to figure out where we have a commercial site
that runs into residential in the way that this one does and I can't in my head find it or
figure it out and that's been an -- you know, it's like you go into Paramount and there is a
school and on the left you have residential -- it doesn't go through the neighborhood. It
doesn't connect in through the neighborhood. You know, maybe the applicant has some
other ideas, but I'm trying to figure out how this works, you know, how it interplays.
Doesn't make sense. Because, then, it gets back to the larger policy question. Well,
maybe some of the things that were proposed were more appropriate to extend
commercial along that area, because that's -- that's how you need to maneuver traffic
through that element. But maybe my mind just is -- can't think of where this -- this type of
situation exists in other places of the city. So, that's -- that's kind of -- I can't say that's
the motion, but that's one of the things into this project that I think it -- does this make
sense? The other thing does a HAWK signal make sense until you can get the sidewalk?
Or the flashing lights. I don't know when that makes sense through that -- through that
process, which will be -- maybe it makes sense right away, maybe it doesn't.
Dodson: Mr. Mayor? That was me. Sorry. I -- I can agree with you. At least off the top
of my head I cannot remember where -- any of my projects at a minimum, but others
where the commercial runs into it like this. However, I believe that is why the applicant
probably proposed flex space, because when it comes to vehicle trips, they are much
lower than like a multi-tenant building and a traditional commercial building, because it's
probably going to be the -- what I have seen a lot in these are like a lot of blue collar
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workers, honestly, like a solar company or HVAC company or somebody that has like a
truck and, then, they have their stock in their office in this building. Simple, easy, it's like
a couple work utility trucks in and out in the day and that's it. Very minimal. I -- usually a
lot less of a retail component. Flex space standards do not anticipate or want a big retail
component in here. So, the vehicle trips are lower for flex space. They are generally in
general -- in general commercial is usually separated from residential by a street of some
kind, which I -- they kind of have between the private road and the commercial there, but,
then, along Amity they do have the abutting four-plexes. They are meeting the separation
requirement required by code between C-C zoning and the R-15 zoning, but I would
agree, Mr. Mayor, that is rare to have them abutting. So, I understand your points. I
definitely do from a planning perspective.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Yeah. I was going to comment. If it's a traditional commercial, if you look at
Ten Mile and Ustick on the southeast corner, you have a traditional L-shape and, then,
there is patio homes behind that and there is a street and the fence and there is
restaurants and, boy oh boy, talk about delivery times and upset people and traffic and
different things like that, if where they were just commercial businesses, you know, 8:00
to 5:00 -- Gino's closes on Sundays, fortunately, and he quit playing music on the patio
and the neighbors complained. He was very good about it. But there is another
restaurant there that has an outdoor patio and, you know, people can't enjoy their
backyards. You can hear the kegs being brought in. I mean -- so, I'm very aware of that
with complaints from neighbors about that and so that traditional type of thing and you
don't want restaurants there, so I think flex space will work better, but, yeah, there --there
can be conflicts with -- with neighbors when they go -- go that route, so it all depends on
what's -- what's there.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I agree with Council President Brent in that I feel like we need to share some
specifics that that's what is fair to do, but I don't have specifics to propose or to share and
my -- my gut is telling me that -- that this is a good project for the most part, but this isn't
the right time and that's what I'm trying to work through. So, as far as how we would -- I
mean I guess -- I guess my question is to ask my fellow Council Members -- normally we
do give specifics, the applicant works on those, they come back, we have another
conversation. I -- that's not where we are headed with this, though. So, what does the
next meeting look like for us?
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
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Hoaglun: Is that -- is that question, Council Woman Perreault, the next meeting like do
we close the public hearing and no one contacts us, of course, we don't talk about it,
because that's -- that's prohibited, but -- or do we leave the public hearing open and let
people continue flow of information and, then, we make a decision through the traditional
process or how did you mean -- mean your -- your question?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you for that question and it was less about the -- the technicality of the
meeting and more what do we expect to have happen? What do we expect the applicant
to be doing? I was under the assumption we would close the public hearing this evening.
What is it that we want the applicant to be doing? Are we going to have another
conversation with them or are we just going to come back and give a decision and all
applicant and public testimony is closed? Are we asking the applicant to make specific
changes or aren't we? Is it really just a matter of us individually having time to think about
it and, then, coming back with a decision?
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I can give my -- my preference would be -- besides working on the crossing --
safe route to school issue, I think between now and decision time we need to have a
bigger conversation or overall strategy in south Meridian -- a separate meeting, not about
this application, but holistically. I would love to see from planning staff a deeper dive kind
of analysis on how many units -- you know, the number of -- which they have, but the
number of units that are approved, breaking down a realistic pathway as to when those
will be delivered, what are we really looking at in terms of capacity issues over time if
there is no new bond and there is no new schools being built, what capacity does West
Ada have now. Maybe more clarity holistically from West Ada, if we can get it, but I feel
like we need to have kind of a --just a bigger picture kind of a brainstorming conversation
on creating a plan around that. That -- that to me would be the next step.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I -- I -- I understand Council Woman Strader's thoughts on the holistic dive and
the -- and the macro approach to these deep policy issues that we need to discuss and I
-- I guess -- I haven't been doing this for very long. You know, this is -- I'm somewhat
new'ish I guess. But I do understand how government works and how these -- how long
it takes to have these policy discussions. We are talking about months, maybe even a
year plus before, you know, you have folks, you know, getting together with -- if you do it
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right that's -- that's the process and so I'm not sure if we can wait that long to get answers
with this particular application.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Specific to Council Woman Strader's request, would it be helpful to have
expected enrollment information from West Ada based on where we currently are and
where --where they anticipate us to be. In addition to that maybe some more information
from the planning department on the projects that have been approved -- some of them
are four years out, some are five years. There is one that's ten years out. If there is any
way for us to get information on their phasing plans and when they expect to have certain
portions of their residential completed that might give us a better picture. There is a sense
of urgency, there really is, but in some ways we do look at what do we really expect --
how many units do we really expect to have built in two years, in four years, in six years,
in ten years? I don't think that we digest this information without looking at that in
relationship to the expectation of West Ada's enrollment. I would like to see some data
on that. That would help me really understand is -- really what the urgency is -- we are
talking about this being a tipping point. If we are talking about when do we stop approving
projects, I want to be able to say what -- you know, we stop approving them when this --
you know, this happens and this happens and it's not -- it's not -- it's not perfect. There is
-- there is not going to be an exact number that we are going to have, but I don't want to
make the assumption that the several hundred approvals that we have given are all going
to be built next year, because they are not and I -- and I just want to be really careful that
we don't move forward and swing in the opposite direction because of a sense of urgency
without having more information. Is that what you were getting at?
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Yeah. Totally. Like the numbers that Amy gave are huge numbers; right? But
don't know if that's a fair way to look at it. I think we needed -- we need a strategy around
managing growth. It sounds like in south Meridian right now if the schools aren't going to
build more schools, but I guess just turning to the applicant, right, like if I'm in the
applicant's shoes it doesn't look great right now, but I think we should ask their opinion,
you know, do they want a decision very soon or are they willing to wait? I don't know.
Council President and Mayor, I will defer to you on how you want to thread that needle.
Simison: Well, I will make a recommendation and move us forward. I would look at a
month out -- continuing this for a month out to see how much of this you can absorb,
some of these policy issues between now and -- and there could be conversations with
the applicant between now and then amongst staff and -- but plan on trying to come back
to make a decision on this one as you evaluate how much time and energy and resources
you think it will take and as well as we have a conversation with, you know, West Ada
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what's from them in between. I can do some fact-finding gathering. But I don't think that
you -- you are going to answer these questions before you should make a decision on
this application, but it's how long until you at least feel like you have weighed the --
weighed enough to evaluate a decision on this application.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I think -- that's a heavy lift to get all that information, whether it's district wide or
even just the south -- south wide and I don't think staff has the bandwidth -- I mean they
have got -- these things keep coming in. They roll in. For this particular development
application one of the things I would like, Joe, is along the same lines, but just for this
one, because they talked --they--we have the letter and chose to enroll for capacity and,
then, the approved preliminary plat parcels per attendance area and those are some big
numbers, the 1,556, 1,479, 3,170. But we know they aren't all coming online at the same
time. So, if there is a way to have estimates or at least if we know the phasing -- you
know, like this one was, you know, through 2025, okay, there is -- there is that and a lot
of these are also going to be phased. So, it looks like a huge number and they go, whoa,
that doesn't work. But if we break it down I think for this particular application it will give
us a little more information to make a decision. So, that would be helpful.
Borton: Mr. Mayor, just to comment further. I would -- I -- I think what we are asking is
think something that we -- we do need to have the discussion, it's just a matter of when
that can be accomplished and when that takes place, because there is a lot of parties that
will be involved and there is a lot of data that needs to be gathered and -- and, like I said,
we know our Planning Department is really stretched. So, that's -- that's -- so, I think we
need to be fair to the applicant and give them a thumbs up or thumbs down and for the
folks who are waiting and sitting there and I think some of the letters talked about the
longest thing they have ever been involved with and it's going to drive them crazy or some
words to that effect. But anyway -- and be fair to them, too, not -- not drag this out and
make a decision on this. But go gather information, but it -- it still has -- has implications
for what we do in the future as well. So, that's -- that's what I think we -- we need to do
right now.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, there -- there is -- there -- there are some heavy meetings between
now and up until the 14th and, then, we have Council Members that are going to be out
of town during the holidays that would wish to participate. So, really, truly, the soonest
time we could get to this and have full discussion would be the 4th of January.
Simison: The applicant nod is --
Bernt: With that, Mr. Mayor, I believe we are going to keep this public hearing open then
and, then, we will continue it. I make a motion, Mr. Mayor, that we continue this public
hearing to January 4th, 2022.
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Perreault: Second.
Cavener: Second.
Simison: Motion and second to continue the public hearing until January 4th. Is there
any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes have
it and the public hearing is continued until January 4th. Thank you all for being here.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
Simison: We have got some more business to do, so we are going to keep -- keep on
moving through our agenda to try to get this wrapped up this evening.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, we -- we continued Item No. 14. We scratched Item No. 15. We know
-- we know. We are very aware -- so, we scratched Item No. 15 and we continued Item
No. 16. So, I think we are to future meeting topics.
Simison: No. Item 14.
Bernt: Oh, yes.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, the first reading on 14 and 16 and, then,
continue the public hearing to your November 30th meeting.
Bernt: Got it.
ORDINANCES [Action Item]
14. First Reading of Ordinance No. 21-1954: An Ordinance of the City
Council of the City of Meridian, Idaho, Approving the (Option A) Urban
Renewal Plan for the Northern Gateway District Urban Renewal
Project, Which Plan Includes Revenue Allocation Financing
Provisions; Authorizing the City Clerk to Transmit a Copy of This
Ordinance and Other Required Information to County and State
Officials and the Affected Taxing Entities; Providing Severability;
Approving the Summary of the Ordinance; and Providing an Effective
Date
Simison: Okay. So, Item 14 is first reading of Ordinance No. 21-1954. Ask the Clerk to
read this ordinance by title.
Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. It's an ordinance of the City Council --
Perreault: Mr. Mayor? I'm sorry, Chris. Could we ask that all the discussion move out to
the lobby? Thank you. I apologize, Chris, for interrupting you.
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Johnson: Okay. This is the first reading of Ordinance No. 21-1954. An ordinance of the
City Council of the City of Meridian, Idaho, approving the Option A Urban Renewal Plan
for the Northern Gateway District Urban Renewal Project, which plan includes revenue
allocation financing provisions; authorizing the City Clerk to transmit a copy of this
ordinance and other required information to county and state officials and the affected
taxing entities; providing severability; approving the summary of the ordinance; and
providing an effective date.
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I move that we continue the second reading until November 30th.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: We have had a motion to continue the second reading until November 30th. Is
there any discussion? If not, all favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay? The ayes
have it and the item -- second reading will be on November 30th.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
15. First Reading of Ordinance No. 21-1955: An Ordinance of the City
Council of the City of Meridian, Idaho, Approving the (Option B) Urban
Renewal Plan for the Northern Gateway District Urban Renewal
Project, Which Plan Includes Revenue Allocation Financing
Provisions; Authorizing the City Clerk to Transmit a Copy of This
Ordinance and Other Required Information to County and State
Officials and the Affected Taxing Entities; Providing Severability;
Approving the Summary of the Ordinance; and Providing an Effective
Date
Simison: Item 15 was vacated off the agenda.
16. First Reading of Ordinance No. 21-1956: An Ordinance of the City
Council of the City of Meridian, Idaho, Approving the First Amendment
to the Urban Renewal Plan for the Union District Urban Renewal
Project, Which First Amendment Seeks to Annex Certain Parcels to
the Existing Union District Project Area; Which First Amendment
Includes Revenue Allocation Financing Provisions; Authorizing the
City Clerk to Transmit a Copy of This Ordinance and Other Required
Information to County and State Officials and the Affected Taxing
Entities; Providing Severability; Approving the Summary of the
Ordinance; and Providing an Effective Date
Simison: So, we will move on to Item 16 for first reading of Ordinance No. 21-1956.
Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. It's an ordinance of the City Council of the City of
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Meridian, Idaho, approving the First Amendment to the Urban Renewal Plan for the Union
District Urban Renewal Project, which first amendment seeks to annex certain parcels to
the existing union district project area; which first amendment includes revenue allocation
financing provisions; authorizing the City Clerk to transmit a copy of this ordinance and
other required information to county and state officials and the affected taxing entities;
providing severability; approving the summary of the ordinance; and providing an effective
date.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we continue this item for a second reading to November 30th.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to continue the second reading until November
30th. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay?
The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
FUTURE MEETING TOPICS
Simison: Council, anything under future meeting topics that we didn't already discuss?
Nary: Mr. Mayor? Just one to make the Council aware. So, we have two public hearings
scheduled for next Tuesday. That's going to be canceled and since we can't start a
meeting without a quorum. We would normally, of course, simply move it to the next
scheduled meeting. We will check with the applicants tomorrow and we provide as much
public notice as we can on NextDoor and some of the other tools that we have, but we
will check with the applicants tomorrow to make sure they are available, since that's the
weekend after Thanksgiving. I have no idea what their schedule is like. So, if that's not
the case we will have to continue it and re-notice it entirely, so just wanted to make you
aware.
Simison: Thank you.
EXECUTIVE SESSION per Idaho Code 74-206(1)(a) To consider hiring a public
officer, employee, staff member or individual agent, wherein the respective
qualities of individuals are to be evaluated in order to fill a particular vacancy or
need.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
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Bernt: I move that we go into Executive Session per Idaho Code 74-206(1)(a).
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to go into Executive Session. Is there any
discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Bernt, yea; Perreault, yea; Hoaglun, yea; Strader,
yea.
Simison: All ayes. Motion carries. We will go into Executive Session.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
EXECUTIVE SESSION: (10:50 p.m. to 11:07 p.m.)
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I move we come out of Executive Session.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: Motion and second to come out of Executive Session. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I move we adjourn.
Simison: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:08 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
MAYOR ROBERT E. SIMISON 11-30-2021
ATTEST:
CHRIS JOHNSON - CITY CLERK
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