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Home My WebLink About2021-10-12 Regular Minutes Item#2. Meridian City Council October 12, 2021. A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:00 p.m., Tuesday, October 12, 2021, by Mayor Robert Simison. Members Present: Robert Simison, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Treg Bernt, Jessica Perreault, Brad Hoaglun and Liz Strader. Also present: Chris Johnson, Bill Nary, Alan Tiefenbach, Berle Stokes, Joe Bongiorno and Dean Willis. ROLL-CALL ATTENDANCE Liz Strader _X_ Joe Borton _X_ Brad Hoaglun _X_Treg Bernt X Jessica Perreault _X Luke Cavener _X_ Mayor Robert E. Simison Simison: Council, call the meeting to order. For the record it is Tuesday, October 12th, 2021. It's 6:00 o'clock p.m. We will begin this evening's regular City Council agenda with roll call attendance. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Simison: Next item is the Pledge of Allegiance. If you would all, please, rise and join us in the pledge. (Pledge of Allegiance recited.) COMMUNITY INVOCATION Simison: Next item up is the community invocation. Do we have Rabbi Dan in the -- Johnson: You do. He is here now. Fink: Creator, Holy One, Source of Life, we thank you for this opportunity to come together this evening. Grant wisdom we pray to those entrusted with leadership. Guide their words, their thoughts, and their actions, so that they may govern with discernment and wisdom, strengthening our nation's vision of liberty and justice for all. Keep their hearts and minds open to the needs of their constituents. May they hear them in a spirit of genuine curiosity, compassion and respect and teach us, Holy One, we pray to lead in a manner that both honors the unalienable rights of all our citizens and properly acknowledges that those rights must be balanced by communal responsibilities. Where our social fabric is torn, grant us the will and the power to mend. In the words of Rabbi Hillel almost 2,000 years ago, if I am not for myself who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now when? Amen. Page 16 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 2 of 60 ADOPTION OF AGENDA Simison: Thank you, Rabbi. I appreciate you being here. Next up is the adoption of the agenda. Bernt: That's me, Mr. Mayor. Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I move that we adopt the agenda as published. Hoaglun: Second the motion. Simison: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as published. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it and the agenda is agreed to. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. PUBLIC FORUM — Future Meeting Topics Simison: Mr. Clerk, do we have anyone signed up under the public forum? Johnson: Mr. Mayor, we do not. RESOLUTIONS [Action Item] 1. Resolution No. 21-2291: A Resolution of the Mayor and the City Council of the City of Meridian Appointing John Keller to the Meridian Historical Preservation Commission; Kayleigh Philippi to the Meridian Solid Waste Commission; and Providing an Effective Date Simison: Okay. Then the first item up will be Resolution No. 21-2291, appointing John Keller to the Meridian Historical Preservation Commission and Kayleigh Philippi to the Meridian Solid Waste Commission. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Keller is online. He is coming in as a panelist right now. Simison: Okay. Johnson: Mr. Keller, you can unmute or turn on your camera, whichever. Keller: Hello. Simison: Okay. So, Council, you do have these appointments, two of the youth to our commissions and be happy to entertain a motion. Page 17 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 3 of 60 Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: I move that we approve Resolution No. 21-2291, a resolution of the Mayor and City Council of the City of Meridian appointing John Keller to the Meridian Historical Preservation Commission and Kayleigh Philippe to the Meridian Solid Waste Commission and providing an effective date. Hoaglun: Second the motion. Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve Resolution No. 21-2291. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it and the resolution is agreed to. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Simison: John, would you like to make any comments to Council? Keller: Hello. I'm really happy to serve my community. Simison: Well, thank you. We are excited to have you serving as well. Appreciate you being here this evening to see this appointment made. Keller: Yes. Bernt: Thanks, John. ACTION ITEMS 2. Public Hearing for McFadden Property(H-2021-0048) by Doug Tamura, Located at 104 W. Cherry Ln. Simison: All right. Next item up is ourAction Items this evening, which is public hearings. First item up is a public hearing for McFadden Property, H-2021-0048. I will open this public hearing with staff comments. Tiefenbach: Good evening, Mayor, Members of the Council. Alan Tiefenbach, associate planner. Okay. So, this first one is called the McFadden property annexation and rezoning. This property consists of 17 -- not quite 18 acres of land. It's zoned RUT in the county. It's located at the northwest corner of North Meridian Road and West Cherry. You probably know this property by the horses that are on the property. The property is bordered by L-O and R-8 to the north. West Cherry Lane and OT to the south. Commercial across North Meridian Road and R-8 to the west. The Comprehensive Plan recommends this property for mixed use community. It's kind of an interesting case here, so I'm going to go through a little bit of detail about this. So, again, this is an annexation Page 18 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 4 of 60 and zoning of not-- not quite 18 acres of land with the C-C business district zoning district. The main purpose of this and why we are seeking the annexation is to ensure that this can be included as part of the Northern Gateway Urban Renewal Plan, which is currently being developed by the Meridian Development Corporation. As I said, the future land use map designates this property for mixed use community. The main purpose of that is to allocate areas where community services and uses and dwellings are integrated into the urban fabric. The applicant submitted a conceptual plan as part of this application. That's what you see on the right. I turned it -- because I work better with north being up. Probably you do, too. So, on the left there is an aerial. On the right is what's being proposed. This is very conceptual and, again, I'm going to talk about this. The reason why we are doing this at this time is merely to get this property incorporated into the urban renewal district. If we don't do it at this time, then, we won't be able to bring this property in later. The plan that you see here shows three buildings oriented to the West Cherry Lane, North Meridian Road, which if you can see my pointer I'm talking about these three buildings here. Parking is along the sides and to the back, which is what our design standards talk about. There is -- if you look up north of those there is five more buildings running along North Meridian Road and, then, there is a phase two, which you see that large blank square, basically, for the future and the applicant has envisioned commercial, office, retail, hotel, multi-family uses in the future for this. The applicant's narrative suggests that their intent is to develop the buildings shown along the corner there first with uses including gas station and a convenience store, perhaps some retail and office and, then, the hotel and the other uses at a later phase. The applicant has proposed that before any specific uses would be constructed within the next phase, C-C, the --what you see there as phase two, that there would be a development agreement modification that would be approved and this would include a conceptual plan. I'm going to talk about this in detail again as I talk about the DA and the conditions of approval that I believe the applicant is amenable to. So, staff does support a limited amount of commercial occurring in the short term at the southeast corner based on the concept plan that's been submitted. We did have concerns about build out of all of the buildings along North Meridian Road without really a detailed concept plan. Based on the concept plan that was submitted staff recommended allowing the development of the first three commercial buildings. So, that would be what you would see here, if you can see my pointer. That would be along the West Cherry Lane frontage and, then, south of the existing access there is an access that's here now from Meridian. A development agreement -- and that's submitted by the applicant and detailed concept plans that are consistent with the mixed use community designation of the comp plan would be required prior to any additional development. Staff has received one letter of support from the Meridian Development Corporation. We did have one person show up and testify at the Planning Commission. It was the church directly to the west. It was really just concerns about what would the height of the buildings be, what kind of uses would be occurring there and as we explained that's at a later phase, so we don't really know at this point. It would be something that would be figured out and approved by the Council at a later time. So, our recommendations -- there would be a development agreement and I'm going to run through what staff's recommendations are and I have listed them here. So, with the first phase of development the applicant may develop up to three commercial buildings along -- along the West Cherry Lane frontage and south of the existing access at North Meridian Road. Page 19 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 5 of 60 That's what I showed you on the concept plan, those first three buildings on the corner. The applicant shall submit a plan illustrating how pedestrian connections in the first phase will tie to future phases of the development. That's because we want to make sure that the whole thing eventually ties together like mixed use community. So, the applicant at least needs to show us how the circulation is going to tie in with the first phase, so that we make sure that it's planned correctly. The applicant shall coordinate with the city and MDC on the design of an entry feature at the southeast corner near the intersection with the first certificate of zoning compliance. Again, we want to make sure that as this -- the first part is built that it's built taking into account that there has to be some kind of identity feature. That's what the Comprehensive Plan talks about. That's what the North Gateway area talks about. So, something that identifies this as a different place. The applicant shall install the buffers along West Cherry Lane and North Meridian Road with any other future phases of development. So, beyond the first phase, those first three buildings, the developer shall submit -- let's see. Clops. I moved -- with any future phases of the future development the applicant would have to submit for a development agreement modification and there is certain things that we are recommending that would be the minimum that would be part of this development agreement. It would be a detailed concept plan for the entire development. They would submit the general layout and configuration of the buildings, circulation plan for both motorized and nonmotorized, so pedestrian trails and pathways and open space and amenity plan and conceptual building elevations. There would be a requirement for the future development of the site to comply with the design concepts that's being established by the new Northern Gateway District. Again, that hasn't even been finished yet, so we don't know exactly what the design concepts are going to be, which is why we are hoping -- we are wanting them to work with MDC as this comes together. There would be a requirement for building footprints to be limited to 30,000 square foot or a 60,000 square foot for a grocery store, unless it's very vertically integrated. That is what the Comprehensive Plan talks about in that area for a mixed use community. The development would need to contain at least three types of land uses. Again, that is what is designated mixed use community. However, if they do vertically integrated buildings, meaning retail or commercial of some sort on the bottom and residential on the top, that would count as one of those uses and residential uses should contain -- contain a minimum of 20 percent of the development. So, we wouldn't want the entire thing to build out, for instance, as multi-family, but there does need to be a residential component in order for it to be the mixed use community designated by the plan. And the gross densities would need to be between six to 15 dwelling units per acre and, again, that is what is listed actually in the Comprehensive Plan. At the September 16th, 2021 , meeting the PC recommended approval. My understanding with recent discussions that the -- the applicant is amenable to all the conditions. So, again, what we are doing is we are just basically bringing this in kind of as a blank slate. We are letting the applicant develop just the first three buildings. As they develop those first three buildings there is a few things they will need to account for. Where are the connections going to be. Where is that identity feature going to be. They will have to put in the landscape buffers. Anything else beyond those three buildings they will have to do a complete development plan that would come to you as a development agreement modification that would -- again, pathway plan, architecture, and all that stuff. With that I will conclude my presentation. Page 20 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 6 of 60 Simison: Thank you, Alan. Council, questions? Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Thank you. Appreciate the presentation. One question. Are you wanting 20 percent of the first phase to be residential given the fact that second phase will be almost entirely residential? Tiefenbach: No, sir. And I'm sorry if I wasn't real clear about that. That would be with the second phase of development that at least 20 percent of it would have to be residential. The first phase would be one hundred percent commercial, the three buildings. Bernt: Thank you. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you, Alan. So, the staff report mentioned a couple of times that there is a desire to have kind of civic areas, plaza areas. Unless I'm missing something, I don't really see a focus on that in this -- in this bubble plan here and also not really sure what --there is a little rectangular area with some lines across it on the south part of the drawing that's just to the east of the C-store. What is that for? Tiefenbach: Thank you, Council Person. If I understand correctly, you are asking about plazas and you are asking about the -- part of the -- I believe that's a gas pump. What you see in there is a square with the rectangular lines. Okay. So, basically, if you look at those three buildings there at the corner -- erase all those other buildings to the north. Those -- anything that we see in the future -- the only thing that we are talking about tonight is that entrance there on North Meridian and those three buildings to the south. That is the reason why we have said with the first phase of development the applicant needs to take into account the identity feature and that they need to give us a plan to show how the circulation is going to start here, so once these first three buildings are constructed for any other development that would happen they are going to have to give us one of the -- one of the things that's required that we are recommending with the development agreement would be an open space amenity and trails plan. So, they would have to show with future development beyond those first three buildings where all the plazas, the pathways, and, again, except that the first phase would --would have to show some sort of pedestrian connection to show how it's going to begin. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, a follow up. Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Page 21 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 7 of 60 Perreault: So, in other words, there is not going to be a specific requirement for any of those civic plaza types of gathering spaces in the first phase. So, the second phase is in -- could come in a very -- could be ten years out, 15, 20 years out or, you know -- and -- and we don't know when those -- when those other requirements are going to be met in the second phase or is the intention that this would all be developed during -- at minimum during the -- the time period that the URD is -- is -- you know, before the URD deadline, the Northern Gateway deadline, or can you kind of give us some understanding? Because it -- it seems really -- I guess it's just -- it just doesn't seem very solid as to how the rest of it's going to play out. Tiefenbach: Understood, which is why -- why we are recommending so many details. It might be one of the things I might want to have Tori Cleary talk about. My understanding is that an urban renewal plan goes for 25 years. I believe that the applicant has every interest in wanting to be able to get the benefits that comes along with tax increment financing and the other things like that involved with an urban renewal district. In this particular phase, yes, you would just see those first three commercial buildings. I'm not sure what the timing is for the rest of that development to begin. The original idea was that we were just going to try to just bring this whole parcel in as a blank slate with a development agreement that says nothing can happen here until you do a development agreement modification and the reason for that is if we don't get this into their urban renewal plan now it won't happen. That's -- it's a lost opportunity, because there is a percentage on how much they can incorporate and this is bigger than they are allowed to do. So, I don't know what the timing is on the second part, but the first three buildings was sort of staff's agreement that, okay, if you work with us we will work with you and we will let you develop those first three buildings, as long as they are not obstructing the way that we would like to see it built out in the future. That was a very long winded answer to your question and it is complicated, so I apologize. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Yeah. I mean I'm -- I'm a bit uncomfortable just out the gate that, you know, we are just seeing a piece of the development and it's really important -- I know with Ten Mile we had a lot of design guidelines and kind of the bigger vision. It just doesn't seem like the execution we usually would pursue with an urban renewal district. So, my question is can we satisfy the urban renewal requirements with just an annotation, not approve the concept plan and, then, approve a full concept plan at a later date? Would that still legally meet the requirement for the URD? Tiefenbach: I think I'm going to look at Bill Nary or Victoria on that one. That's going over my paygrade. Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, yes, from -- from one standpoint, yes, just annexing the property. When we met with Mr. Tamara and his Council, is his concern on his being able to market the property. That completely blank slate really ties his hands Page 22 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 8 of 60 on moving forward in any type of way and so the compromise we came to in that meeting was this kind of gets the property in the plan, part of the urban renewal district, a little bit of development up front, with some conceptual ideas of what could be the rest. As you will notice that label on that C-C is hotel, multi-family, office, retail. So, it really was intended to be a very much of a blank slate to move forward, but to give him the comfort and ability to market his property versus just no designation of anything and so that's kind of what the purpose was, was to give a -- kind of very basic building block with some ability to develop a portion, get it into the urban renewal so that we can include it, because it's kind of now or never and if we don't do it now it can't ever be part of it. So, that was the reason for it. Tiefenbach: And if I can add, Council Person, I would, again, defer to the applicant, but I believe this was the minimum that he would agree to and -- and move forward with the annexation and the rezoning. There was a discussion about whether he even needed to do this now, but it was -- the city believed that was in our best interest because of this large property and that we are working on the Urban Gateway -- the North Gateway Plan, it would be a good time to get this incorporated. But, again, this was pretty much the minimum that -- I think that we could agree to in order for him to move forward with this. Strader: Yeah. I mean I -- I would say, though, at the same time, right, isn't there a significant incentive to be part of the URD for a property owner, considering the huge amount of public infrastructure investment that's going to go into it? But I guess my question would be what is the drop dead absolute latest deadline for annexation for this to work? Tiefenbach: Tori, I don't know if you can answer that question or not. She's coming up here. Cleary: Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, Council Woman Strader. The annexation would need to be complete before the final reading of the ordinance, which I believe is scheduled for the first week in December. And, Mr. Mayor, if I could maybe address a couple of the other questions and comments. The URD -- the life of the URD is 20 years. Certainly economic development and MDC are supportive of the future development of this site. However, we understand that the land use entitlement processes fall within the purview -- a different purview, purview of the Council. It's been estimated that future development of this could, let's see, generate about three million dollars over the life of the -- over the life of the district, that 20 years. I will say there is nothing set in stone at all about reimbursement for public infrastructure. That would be -- that would come later on. That's up to an owner participation agreement between the applicant and MDC. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thanks, Victoria. Yeah. I guess, you know, I'm just -- I'm curious --well, maybe Page 23 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 9 of 60 1 will reserve my comment for later after everybody else has a chance to dig in a little bit. But I would just -- it makes me really nervous to kind of go at this piecemeal. I know we have this timeline. I guess I'm just wondering if -- if the applicant and planning staff and everybody really worked hand in hand and we pushed it up until like whatever the latest deadline is in December, if we can get a full concept plan. But I'm going to listen and I'm trying to be open minded, but it just makes me so nervous to commit -- especially like a C-store and a gas station and I just don't know if that's what we are ultimately envisioning for this important location. Simison: And I guess I will piggyback off of that just a little bit, you know, and this can be for the staff or the applicant. I mean just in conversations I have had -- not about this development, but generally about the benefits of having a hotel in our downtown, which this potentially is identified as a hotel site. Nothing guaranteed. But having that closer to the corner seems to be the more appropriate place to put a tower and/or hotel that might be closer to the other redevelopment opportunities of the -- the other corners or instead closer to the downtown, as compared to back further in the property. Was that discussed at all in terms of like -- I mean even conceptual layout fully, that's -- that would be my two -- two cents is you would want to feather it -- feather from the corner higher uses to lesser uses further back into the property towards the existing residential or other uses. Tiefenbach: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, yes, that had been discussed. Part of our hesitance was getting too far into this is that they are still working on the North Gateway Plan and that's going to have pretty specific requirement -- requirements for this and design. I'm a little reluctant to get too into the weeds with this without actually having the applicant talk a little bit about what their plans are, because I don't want to answer on behalf of -- I'm pretty sure he will do a better job of answering some of these intent questions. Our -- our part here was tried to agree to a minimum of something that he could do to get some entitlements in place, at the same time get this annexed into the property with some promises that nothing else could happen without a full blown plan, which is, again, why you see some minimum requirements for the trails and how it has to be organized and beyond that -- yeah. So -- so, I might want to defer to the applicant for some more the details on the timing and what's going to develop there and why he is asking to do what he is going to do. Simison: Council, any additional questions for staff? Okay. Then I will ask the applicant to, please, come forward and state your name and address for the record and be recognized for 15 minutes. Tamura: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, my name is Doug Tamura. 732 Santa Paula in Boise, Idaho. I'm the owner of the McFadden property. This spring I was pleasantly surprised when Ashley contacted me about potentially being a part of their Northern Gateway Urban Renewal District. So, tonight I'm here requesting annexation and zoning, so that we can qualify for the district. One of the things that we have here is it's a large project. My main background is -- we all -- we did -- we developed Fairview Lakes. That was a 26 acre project, but it's been a -- you know, ten or 12 year project for us to do that. We just finished doing the corner of Franklin and Locust Grove where Gensco is at. Cope Page 24 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 10 of 60 Automotive. And, then, we own East Gate Shopping Center across from Timberline High School and so we took an old 100,000 square foot shopping center and totally remodeled it. We are just completing a Chipotle on the corner that and the other thing that we do is we develop retirement centers. So, The Grace at Fairview Lakes and, then, we have got one in Nampa and the retirement centers next to Bishop Kelly are projects that I own and designed, so -- on this one, like I told Bill, it's difficult for us to go ahead and market this project until we have some kind of zoning that we could represent to future users. We have been contacted by C-store and that's why I showed a C-store and I know that the previous person that had it under contract had been talking to Jackson's. So, you know, our preference would be to have Jackson's do kind of a state of the art project there, you know, but I haven't talked to them, because we don't have zoning. I have been contacted by a couple of the different drugstores. We developed a Walgreens at the corner of Apple and Park Center, so I have got a relationship with them. But, again, without zoning we haven't done anything. We own a Starbucks. We just finished -- we are just completing a Chipotle. So, those are -- I know there would be great tenants that would want to be in this potentially location, because it's such a strong going-to-work location. You know -- you know, I think our -- our biggest thing is we want to take our time and make sure that we do this right. In regards to the hotel, one of the things that I would mention to, you know, all the members that I work with is I could see having something like a Residence Inn that's on Capitol Boulevard right now, something that's multi-story that really anchors that project and I could see that as a backdrop behind the single level commercial that we do on Fairview. But our thought is on a ten acre portion that is future is we think it's a combination of everything, office, retail, commercial and probably the majority of that would be multi-family. But we want to kind of create a whole community when we do the ten acres, so we have got kind of a smaller, you know, user friendly perimeter that's going to provide services, but the density of the project will be the ten acres that I show as future and, you know, trying to come up with some kind of concept here between, you know, now and, you know, November is not going to happen on ten acres. You know -- you know, one of the things I talked to staff about was, you know, we may come back in for a higher zone just so that we could put more vertically integrated, you know, opportunities here. But our goal is to do something really -- you know, because we know that we have got a great location and these locations -- and especially with the growth that Meridian is going through, doesn't come along very often. I'm an architect and so my passion is making sure that, you know, it -- it relates to, you know, who we are I guess, so -- but timing wise, you know, I would want to be able to take our time. I know that from talking with Ashley and Tori that I think our initial one is about a five year window for us to spend the money on developing infrastructure for this property. I don't know -- you know, I'm not real familiar with urban renewal. So, I have never done a project in urban renewal. So, I'm kind of new at this game. So, any questions? Simison: Thank you. Council, questions? Borton: Mr. Mayor? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Page 25 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 11 of 60 Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: Excuse me. Doug, what we have had -- it doesn't happen very often. Okay. Am I on? So, what we customarily do in a situation like this, which doesn't happen very often, when there is an annexation we have to zone it somehow -- to some zone and we do a holding zone, like an R-2, and the purpose of the R-2 is basically to provide a zone with the understanding that as soon as the complete development plan and all of the things you are describing get ironed out by whoever the ultimate end user might be or buyer might be, that there is a rezone application, a DA, a plat and all of that comes with that once it's determined and that affords you the flexibility and your potential buyers the flexibility to do whatever the Northern Gateway district is going to try and promote without tying your hands necessarily. The challenge -- the really big challenge going this route is giving it a C-C zone. I had the same concerns that Liz had when I was -- was prepping this, is that you are -- the city is locked into forever having a gas station and a Walgreens or Rite-Aid on the corner of this extremely prominent, extremely rare, extremely popular and desirable part of the city. I -- no doubt this will and can be extremely beautiful once master planned, but to give it a C-C zone and even allowing those three buildings on the south, you cannot unring the bell and that's a real big concern and you can accomplish -- I think you can accomplish everything you want to accomplish with a different zone that holds it and collaborating with the urban renewal district and the city in a full master plan for the entire area. What the Mayor speaks very well might be the most desirable component of it, but that's -- I'm telling you this to kind of gauge your reaction. It's tradeoffs, but I think the tradeoff of giving it a C-C zone and cementing those three southern uses is a huge drawback in light of a less permanent solution that solves the urban renewal opportunity, which truly is an opportunity. It provides this property a huge resource to utilize, where appropriate, urban renewal funds to provide some improvements, public improvements, that otherwise wouldn't be available for this end user. So, that's some of the hesitancy that I saw coming into it with the zone requested and the desire to have those two or three southern uses. So, what's your reaction to that and are you open to having a different solution, which could happen real quick, with a different zone? Tamura: You know, we had -- Council Member Borton, we had those discussions and we had several meetings of, you know, how we ended up where we ended up with. So, what we just -- what we decided as owners is that as long as we met the comp plan of what the goal is -- what the city was trying to accomplish, we though, well, we must at least put that zone in place, if that's what the goal of the comp plan is and, then, particularly where we can tie it to a DA, development agreement, that beyond these, you know, three -- three quarter parcels we would have to bring in detailed concept of everything that we do in the future, you know, and so -- but I told them -- I said if we went in for an R-2 it doesn't do me much -- much more good than what I have right now. You know, I wouldn't be in the urban renewal district, but I have got no desire to be annexed in if all I'm going to have is R-2, because I can't go out and represent anything to anyone, because, you know, we still have the -- you know, we still have to go through zoning. Borton: But-- but-- Mr. Mayor, if I can just go back and forth. But the tradeoff is you don't Page 26 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 12 of 60 have anything now necessarily. I mean there really isn't. If the expression from the city to the ultimate -- Tamura: So, we have got a -- potentially we have staff's approval to build those three parcels on the corner. Borton: And I guess by when I say not anything, meaning the larger scale project; right? The northern 14 acres you wouldn't necessarily have and there would be a lot of DA conditions that would require you to come back and modify the DA to address things that try to answer all the unknowns that we have got concerns about now. Tamura: I don't have -- I don't have a problem with a future DA, because the other thing I told staff is that I think that Meridian is right on the edge of maturing that I'm starting to see those kind of medium high density housing going in -- starting in downtown and I look at what happened on Myrtle and Boise of what's happened in that whole urban core and that's all happened within the last five years. I mean it was -- it looked like what this property did, more or less just empty parking lots and that's all changed and so I think that as -- as Meridian ages here in the next, you know, two to five years, I think there is going to be a huge change of what the downtown core of Meridian is going to look like. Well, I don't have a problem of-- of coming back in with a design development agreement of dealing with that, because, you know, one of the things I requested with staff is I actually wanted a higher zone, so that we can have more vertically integrated potential future development. But, again, I don't have a problem with a development agreement that will come back in. When we did Fairview Lakes every building on there was a development agreement. We must have came back in a dozen times and made changes, because, you know, the market -- and particularly Meridian being kind of the heart of this valley is -- is really, you know, seeing the changes and the pressures of growth and I think that what we see now downtown Meridian is not -- is only -- you know, it's only the tip of the iceberg of what Meridian is going to look like in the future. But, you know, if I can't -- if I can't at least get to C-Z zone, then, I will probably just pull my application and we will just sit and wait. Borton: Okay. And a final comment, Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: It's -- it's the unknowns. For example, if -- if this entire parcel is best developed with perhaps C-G, like you described and I saw some of those notes in the application, or perhaps with a large hotel that's up on the corner, that's feathered, there is some of those opportunities that long term might be best for the site that you described and what we see was -- was the Myrtle area was planned that way. If we lock in the C-C zone and the uses on the three southern, a lot of those opportunities go away. And I understand that's the tradeoff, but that's just some of the concern, that we wouldn't have those long- term opportunities. Tamura: Council Member Borton, one of the things that, again, I discussed with staff is Page 27 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 13 of 60 our intention is as -- like I said, as this site matures and as we have more demand for vertically integrated, our plan is is that at some point in time we may come back and request a C-G zone for a majority of this site, so -- Borton: Thank you. Tamura: And, you know, even with the three -- three pads that will get approved with the original C-C, it doesn't eliminate the opportunity that, you know, we may try to put a hotel on the corner. I just know that of the people that have contacted me since I have owned this property of people that are out there and so that's why it showed, because that's what I know. I know that we could place those three things there. Is that the best for this location? I don't know, because I -- you know, like I said, I think we have got a real keystone of this downtown urban renewal district. Borton: So, that brings up one more question. To that point are you -- is it your-- are you open to the idea that if it was zoned to C-C that the uses on the southern portion could be removed, you wouldn't have a concept plan that would tie you to anything, all of that would be part of a DA modification to determine how the C-C zone would be utilized. Tamura: That would be fine with me, too. Well -- and, again, when I talk with staff -- you know, our original application is that we proposed a development agreement on everything, so that was -- that was their kind of compromise of me -- because my original application was C-G for the full 18 acres and they said, well, that seemed pretty aggressive and so I said, well, how about if we do the C-C and, then, they said, well, we will give you the three on the southern -- but that -- that came from staff, because I told them -- I said I would agree to a full DA on everything if we need to. Borton: Appreciate that. Thank you. Tamura: Anymore questions? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: First of all, I agree with my -- my fellow Council Members. I have the same concerns and I would be much more comfortable having a DA on everything from the outset for a variety of reasons already mentioned. So, I just wanted to put that out there. Doug, good to see you. You probably don't remember me. I was many years working with Hopkins Financial before Fairview Lakes was developed and all through that time period. I was there almost ten years. So, good to see you. It's been a while. So, just -- I just wanted to understand -- just clarify -- it sounds to me like you -- that this concept plan was based on contacts and communications you have already had with potentially interested parties for this location. Perhaps rather than -- what might be best big picture for -- for Meridian, which is understandable, because, you know, I realize that you don't have anything set yet, because you don't have it annexed or zoned, so can you just give Page 28 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 14 of 60 us some more clarification on -- the design to me seems broken up. It doesn't -- the multiple entrances on the Meridian side, I didn't -- I read through ACHD's report. I didn't see a requirement for three entrances. I just want to understand a little bit more about that before I specifically say that I'm not comfortable with approving this. I realize it is a concept plan, but along the lines of -- of the conversation that we are already having, having concerns about the placement -- even of the three properties that are -- or excuse me -- the three concepts for that southern portion and -- and so I basically just wanted to understand what the placement and what the intentions are, because it just -- it seems all very odd to me. You don't have access to a gas station -- you don't have access off of Cherry Lane to a gas station, which is where you want the access; right? Right next to the gas station, because that's where everybody's turning in and out. So, I just -- can you give me some more details on that? Tamura: Council Member Perreault, so we just finished two years ago negotiating with the highway district over those curb cuts on Meridian Road and so that is something that we were able to work out with them, because I -- I know that part of the success of projects is access and so the other access that we have on Cherry Lane is something that doesn't exist now, but was promised to me that if-- as long as we lined it up with the street across the way that we could get a full access there and so the three accesses that we have shown on Meridian Road was what the highway district gave us. I know that staff's concern was that we may have too much access, but I think depending on the density of what the project is and how many people are going to be coming and going, we -- we said that we would be willing to go ahead and do traffic studies as we develop the overall project to see how traffic circulation worked. What I showed there is what we have existing. So, when they redid Meridian Road those three access points that are shown on my site plan are what exists today. The access point on Cherry Lane is something that would be moved to accommodate a full access. So, where the horses are at and the corral is at only a right-in, right-out, but I know that it's important for us to have a full access off of Cherry Lane. In regards to the sketch that I drew up, you know, since I'm an architect I could visualize -- you know. And since we did Fairview Lakes I could visualize what kind of potential users would be there and the concern that staff had when I was negotiating on trying to get a zone was that it would be difficult for Council to make a ruling on commercial zoning without some kind of concept plan and so I knew that what I showed on this drawing would potentially work for us, because from my experience of working on Fairview Lakes, you know, we have got a far superior location on Meridian Road. So, as far as, you know, family dining, coffee, you know, those kinds of uses that we can cluster along there and create --you know, create some kind of pedestrian friendly, you know, frontage on Meridian Road, I know that's something that we can create and, then, our thought was is to do some kind of vertically integrated large development that would support all those smaller out pads, you know, around the perimeter in a large, you know, planned community and probably a two phase, one where there would be one south of the ditch and one north of the ditch and potentially use the ditch as -- kind of a center amenity to our whole development. But, again, those are -- you know, they are huge projects. You know, it's -- you know, that second phase is ten acres and, you know, if you look at some of the projects that are being developed in downtown Boise, those are acre and a half, two acre projects. So, you can imagine what kind of communities that Page 29 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 15 of 60 we could develop on this property, so -- you know. And I guess I will throw this -- this option out. You know, knowing that we are at kind of the zero hour on this annexation, is that I wouldn't have a problem of making a DA requirement on everything that we did. You know, I don't -- you know, I had mentioned that to staff when we originally did our thing. But, then, I was hoping for a C-G zone that we could do higher density things. But, you know, knowing that I have got the ability to always come back for a rezone on that -- the ten acre portion in the future and if their concerns are what we do on the three in the front, the reason I -- that I showed what I showed is, you know, we developed a Walgreens, so we know what a Walgreens footprint is. We have been -- we have -- we have got an offer on a table right now for a C-store. So, you know, I know that if I wanted to take a C-store I have got one in hand and -- and we have developed both a Starbucks and a Chipotle. That would be great on this location. I know that Starbucks is right down the street, but I have got a really good relationship with Starbucks and I think this would make a great Starbucks location, so -- you know. So, what I did was I just went with what I knew to paint you guys that picture that, hey, we are not asking for a blank slate and this is what could happen. You know, once I had the zoning in place is -- are there other players that are going to come out? I probably get a phone call a week right now of different people and they said are you interested and I say, well, you know, we are going through the entitlement process right now and, you know, I will find out, hopefully, tonight, you know, if it's going to stay a pasture or if we are going to move ahead. So, you know, I -- it's been an interesting couple of months, because, you know, staff has been great to work with and -- and I think we came up with a good compromise and that's why we are here tonight. But I hear what you are saying, because my intention was I asked for the whole thing to be C-G, so we could do as big and as great a development as we could, so -- Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Doug, I -- I'm really excited about this project. I think that when you talk about a Walgreens or a Starbucks or, you know, some of the other things you talk about, I think that it's going to be much bigger, much greater than what you have even thought about. Tamura: I agree, too. Bernt: And so I think that you own a piece of property in the heart of our city and I think that you are going to -- you are going to be able to do whatever the heck you want to do on that property and, hopefully, it's going to be really big and it's going to be really awesome, because I mean you are the -- the gateway. Your property literally is the gateway into downtown and so I would hope that anything that you develop in this property is something that's spectacular and I know that as a developer and as a -- as an architect I know that you are the right guy to make that happen. I need you -- we need you to sort of strike a deal tonight with -- and I -- in the four years I have been sitting in the seat I don't think I have ever negotiated over the pulpit. I don't remember a time. But we are sort of under the gun as far as a time frame is concerned. Would you be willing Page 30 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 16 of 60 to acquiesce and -- and allow this to be zoned C-C and, then, without a concept plan and then -- and, then, allow our staff in the next week to come up with a development agreement that could be agreed upon and voted upon next -- next Tuesday? Tamura: You know, I -- my -- my original -- my original submittal was C-G and, then, compromised down to the C-C. But part of the original submittal was a full development agreement on everything. So, if we could -- you know. And I guess -- well -- and I could -- I could always do a Zoom meeting, but we leave for-- I spend my-- my falls and springs in Hawaii. Bernt: I bet you do. Tamura: So -- Bernt: Can I come? Tamura: We fly out tomorrow. But, like I said, the original submittal -- and my intent was do a DA on everything. So, I don't -- if that's a -- if that's a compromise that we could settle on tonight and, then, you know, push my C-C zoning through and just make that one change, I would be willing to do that. Bernt: Can you specify what you are just -- what you are asking of us? Tamura: That everything that we submit will be -- will be resubmitted as a development agreement and I will go through both Planning and Zoning and City Council as far as the detail of what we are going to develop on every -- every building that we do. So, it will eliminate the ability for us to develop these -- these three locations until we come back in. So, all we are going to do is really get a C-C zone and annexed and, then, future development agreements on anything that we submit. Simison: Alan, I see you had your hand up. If you can answer another question for me. Is there a reason why we couldn't do the same thing with C-G? Is that not -- Tiefenbach: We had some concerns with C-G, mostly because of the height that would be allowed on the entire site. Sixty-five feet would be allowed for the entire site and although we do think that there are some areas that probably would allow some greater heights, we were nervous about entitling the entire site until we knew. Secondly, there was a couple of uses that we weren't really hot on there that would be allowed under C-C, like car dealerships and those kinds of things. C-C was -- C-C allowed all the uses that he wanted to do, the only difference was it didn't allow -- he wanted to go up to 65 feet high, but you could do C-C with -- and, then, allow a conditional use to go higher. So, it would allow -- it would allow the height that you wanted to go through with additional review, but it wouldn't entitle the entire site for that height and if I can add -- I had my hand up. If -- if we are going to go that route I would prefer the following week, so we would have enough time to do this. Next Tuesday probably would be very difficult for us. So, the 26th would be better. Page 31 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 17 of 60 Nary: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, so intention was probably to have this ready by the 26th with the findings and the development agreement on the same night, because that timing will fit MDC's need as well, because they have kind of an A and B option of moving forward with this property and to be fair to Mr. Tamura, that is exactly what he asked for. When we met he wanted the C-G, eliminate any uses out of that C-G that we know we didn't want and, then, he would come back with a DA modification for future uses. Our concern, as Alan said, was, one, it's hard to -- it's hard to eliminate things and not miss something. That happens occasionally. The C-C would meet all the needs he generally wanted to do, but the height allowance, but there was the CUP option for that. So, that's kind of where we landed. To be fair to him, it was staff asking for some general idea what would be there, because the Council in the past has preferred a general overview of what would be there. Buildings. Footprint size. You know, general types of uses. So, that's why he brought up the -- the C-store, gas station, those types of uses. Not that we asked for those specific uses, but he just -- the staff asked for something to show you. We -- I think we would be fine with no specific uses identified, but the C-C really -- as Alan said, sort of does the work for us and Mr. Tamura could live with that to allow him the marketing in the beginning of the process of development of a site plan. So, that was kind of where we landed. So, he did ask for just a kind of an open zoning and we were concerned that it was a little too open. But the C-C kind of fit that bill a little bit better than C-G without trying to figure out every use of C-G that we would want to take out. Did I get that right, Alan? If I -- if I misstated that, please, correct me. Tiefenbach: No, that was --that was correct. It's a lot easier for the city to work with what the applicant -- where the better ideas of the areas of higher heights was through the conditional use process than title -- than through the -- entitle the entire site for 65 feet high. In fact, the church to the west had concerns about the height of the buildings. So, we absolutely think that it should be higher and vertical there, we just weren't okay with a blank check. We thought it would be better to keep it limited and, then, allow where it's appropriate and, again, we didn't want to have some of the entitled uses of C-G there. There -- there is -- there are a few uses that would have been troubling. Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I think I'm okay with that. I think that allowing that zoning to be C-C with the thought process along -- you know, especially at that corner, allowing Doug, you know, the possibility of maybe putting something there that has a little bit of height to it, think you are far enough away from residential that I don't think that that would be a big deal. I don't know what that looks like, but certainly give him the -- you know, the potential Page 32 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 18 of 60 of having that happen. I appreciate, Doug, you being open to the idea of, you know, working with us and working with MDC and -- and their partners to get this process rolling. I know that it was -- like you said a surprise and so I appreciate you willing to be open minded about this. Tamura: You know, the --the two things that I promised to the neighborhood is the church reached out to us about -- they are going to develop a park on the north end of their property and so instead of provide -- you know, give -- one of the things that staff talked about was providing access to the northern part of the church property. Well, he would rather have that buffered, so I told him that we will make sure and buffer his. The -- the three other people -- or couples that showed up at my neighborhood meeting were the three residential units that are contiguous on the very northwest corner and so, again, you know, on my site plan I showed where we would, you know, limit the height of development in that corner to two story. But, again, since we are going to have to come in for development agreements we can address all those kinds of things as it goes along, so -- but it's interesting, because it's almost like a full circle, because what we originally -- or what I originally submitted in my concept was exactly what you are talking about, because the one thing that I could see the difference between the C-C and the C-G was the limit on height and I told them of all the things that we needed, we needed to have that potential that we could have, you know, in certain locations that that height that we could do something nice, so I appreciate the support. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: Quick question for Legal. It's sort of zoning light doing it this way. Very unusual. So, if we -- if we were to proceed with C-C on the entire parcel without any concept plan -- and maybe this is yet to be refined, but what would be the conditions of the approval -- we talked about requiring a DA for any and all parcels, but if it's zoned -- annexed and zoned, there is entitled uses, what prevents them from pulling a permit to build a -- a C- store on the corner anyway? Even without a concept plan? Nary: Mr. Members, Member of the Council, Council Member Borton -- and we can certainly include, if Doug is willing, to put in there that they can't even pull a building permit without a concept plan. We could put in the development agreement that no building permits will be issued either until the concept plan is approved for--for at least that parcel. Maybe not the entire site, but at least that parcel is going to have to be approved prior to building permits. Borton: That's what it sounds like. It sounds like we are talking about having the zoning, but no actual entitled right to construct anything until that future concept plan is brought, presented, approved, so it would be a -- those -- that's an example of a condition in the DA. Nary: That would be my intent. That's what I thought was -- Page 33 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 19 of 60 Borton: Okay. Tiefenbach: And this --Alan Tiefenbach. If I can add onto Mr. Nary. If we were going to go that route, basically C-C, you can't do anything else, I don't even think we need to work on the conditions of approval for the development agreement. That would be something we would work out with the DA that's required with the concept plan. But there would be no conditions. You would be zoning it to C-C with the condition that a concept plan and full development agreement would be required with any development. That would give staff and the applicant time to craft where we are going. Simison: I think we are all in the same place. Bernt: Yeah. Mr. Mayor, I think that that's even better for you, Doug. Tamura: Yeah. Bernt: I mean like this -- I mean if I were in your shoes I would want exactly what we are trying to give you personally. Tamura: Well -- and it's interesting, because that's why--that's what I originally submitted is -- you know. And I represented to the neighborhood that all our developments would have a DA requirement that we did have -- you know, they would have another shot at us before we build anything, so -- Bernt: I think we are good. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Tamura: I think as a compromise staff had come up with the three approvals on the corner. You know, I thought, well, I'm going to take those if I can get them, but, you know, who knows -- you know, like I said, I haven't reached out to any -- I have talked to the C- store and that's -- but that's it. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Doug, thank you. We -- we don't often have applicants just so willingly volunteering for DAs. But we like them, because we feel like they are the most effective tool that we can to develop well. So, I wanted to actually ask a question to staff. During the Comprehensive Plan process I remember I was having discussions -- there was an element of that about transportation. One of the conversations that was had with a -- sort of a transportation concept that we did was that this corner would be a great location as a transportation hub in Meridian and there was some surveys and studies that were done about, you know, where -- where it would be good for us to have some future transportation accesses. Was any of that looked at or reviewed in -- in -- you know, as Page 34 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 20 of 60 part of this application? I know it was just conceptual. I know it was -- it was something that was suggested to the city for this site. There wasn't anything that was, you know, specifically approved by the city that says this is what we are -- that we are planning on having transportation access on this site, but I would really like to make sure that that is something that we discuss or is reviewed or -- if -- if my fellow Council Members believe that that needs to happen. But it -- it said in this information during the comp plan that this was the best location for us to potentially have transportation access and I don't want to overlook that as we talk about what's going to go into this corner. Tiefenbach: Council Person -- Perreault: And -- oh, yes. Go ahead. Tiefenbach: My apologies. Council Person Perreault, Members of the Council, Mr. Mayor, you are -- you are right on the nose. The destination downtown plan actually recommends Cherry -- this as a transportation hub. It does talk about looking at transit shelters, those kinds of things. If you dig into the staff report more -- I didn't put it in my exact conditions of approval, but if you look in the transportation part of my staff report it does talk about that future developments would look at these transportation options. We certainly -- we wanted to wait and see what was going to happen with ACHD, what was going to happen with the North Gateway plan. But, yes, we are very aware that this could be a transportation -- would probably be the transportation hub in the area, particularly Cherry and Meridian. So, yes, we are very aware of that. We do know that that is one of the things that are being planned for. Perreault: Mr. Mayor, follow up. Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Alan, when you say that's being planned for, what do you mean? Because that isn't something that's incorporated in this initial concept plan by the applicant. Tiefenbach: The applicant would have -- so, if we are going forward with the option that I'm hearing discussed with being C-C and, then, a DA and a concept plan for anything in the future, they would have to address potential transit stops. The original staff report talks about that. The conditions talk about motorized and nonmotorized options. Again, we -- we did discuss the transit corner. When I said being planned -- because, you know, I don't know where ACHD is going, but it is identified in our destination downtown plan as being a transit corridor. Perreault: Thank you. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Page 35 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 21 of 60 Strader: Thanks. I just have a couple questions for Mr. Tamura. I appreciate it. So, guess for the group -- and I'm not sure who wants to respond, but would the intention, then, be that the DA will be submitted in the future at the time that a detailed concept plan would be ready and would your intention be to master plan the whole development or would you be taking individual buildings through? I have a bias towards seeing kind of a more holistic kind of master plan for the whole area. Tamura: Council Member Strader -- and Jessica can probably testify from when we worked on Fairview Lakes. I must have changed that concept half a dozen different times. So, you know, sometimes, you know, we had townhouses where the retirement center was at. We had apartments approved where the office park is at. I mean it was a constant moving -- you know. But I think that's just the nature of real estate and potentially close in, great located real estate is really starting to change a lot now. So, what that picture is going to look like in the next two to five years, you know, it's hard to tell and it's hard to master plan a full 18 acre development. I mean it's unrealistic for me to -- to tell you that we would be able to do that. You know, our goal is to make it as nice and as dense as we can. Strader: Yeah. I guess I'm trying to think this through. So, you know, you get the zoning and, then, you would be able to market the property. It would be subject to a DA and a concept plan. I'm not sure how detailed it would need to be. But I think -- you know, your concept plan could change, but I -- I guess my guidance would just be that it would be better to show how the whole development would be integrated together, because that's one of the concerns I had. Like I just wanted to make sure that -- well, I -- yeah. I'm just -- I guess -- so, if you -- if you can explain kind of what you are envisioning. Do you have kind of a phase one outlined in the concept plan that -- that comes in the future, with a phase two to come or would you be trying to work on one -- you know, kind of one holistic plan or what would that look like? Tamura: You know, like I said, you know, a typical downtown BCOT block in Boise is two acres. So, to look at a full one acre development in downtown Boise is a huge project. This is 18 acres. So, it's potentially -- you know, it's -- it's all of downtown Boise in one shot. So, you know, trying to think about how to masterplan downtown Boise -- you know, I can't promise that. I don't have that kind of vision and I don't -- and I know I don't have that kind of money. Strader: Would you be okay with waiting to provide that future concept plan until the Northern Gateway design guidelines and plan are prepared by MDC? Tamura: I will work in conjunction with them. You know, I -- you know, I want to stay the quarterback of my project. Strader: Sure. Tamura: But, you know, I work real well with, you know, all different groups, you know, and I want to have the neighbors involved, too, so that, you know, we do the right thing Page 36 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 22 of 60 for them, too, so -- Strader: Thanks. I appreciate that. When we -- you know, I think -- the only other example I have is the Ten Mile Urban Renewal District and they had a really detailed plan there and that -- it didn't tell all the future uses for that huge development, but it had a lot of guidelines and that made it so that we knew it would be cohesive and so that's -- that's why I'm asking that question, because I think if you had that guidance, then, we could all get really comfortable that it would be cohesive as it comes together. It sounds like that's possible. Tamura: Yeah. Well, like I said, it's -- you know, I haven't -- I haven't put the thought process to develop 18 acres yet, so -- you know, we are just trying to -- like I said, my request is annexation and zoning to get us into the urban renewal district and so it's been a full-time job from this spring until right now to get to where we are at, so that's -- that's all I'm trying to get done right now. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Mr. Nary. Nary: Yeah. Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, one of the things I guess that -- I don't know if this helps your conversation or not. If we are able to get an agreement with Mr. Tamura -- and I have worked with Mr. Tamura for a long time as well -- that it will be part of the -- it can, then, be part of the urban renewal district, which means the urban renewal agency will also be reviewing these types of applications and what fits and what makes sense and he is going to work with them to help design what it was going to fit this area to fit his needs as well. If it's not part of the urban renewal district, then, you are sort of working side by side, but not cohesively, because now it doesn't have to meet the urban renewal guidelines, it meets the city's guidelines and now the city is the only gatekeeper on what happens there. Not that that's bad and that's a problem, but if it's part of a renewal, again, there is -- there is already a built-in connectivity between the guidelines, the standards, the requirements and you have another entity that's also going to review those and comment and provide you feedback on how this fits or doesn't. Because the questions that I think most of you are asking is even if we grant this today and we limit it to building permits and approvals based on a future concept plan, the Council will have to have a reason to simply just say no, but when -- say it's not Mr. Tamura and someone else comes in with a C-store and a drugstore and a coffee shop on the corner, the Council is going to ask the same question. How is that going to integrate with anything else that goes there, just like you are asking tonight. And that's what you are looking for to approve that next step and with it being part of the urban renewal district you will also have the urban renewal district saying that won't fit what we are intending to try to make the entire area. This, the property across the street, the property to the south, the properties to the west. So, it all works cohesively together. Whereas without doing it that way you are really going to be a one off every time trying to figure out -- the city constantly being on Page 37 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 23 of 60 the lookout to make sure it kind of fits. But it doesn't have to actually fit. So, I don't know if that helps or hurts, but it's trying to connect the dots a little bit better for both Mr. Tamura, the city, and MDC. Simison: Council, is it all right if we at least see if we have people signed up from the public to testify and at least get to them, if they would still like to testify, based on where we are at, before -- if we need final stuff from the applicant. Okay. All right. Johnson: Mr. Mayor, first is Ashley Squyres. Squyres: Can you hear me? Simison: Yes, we can. If you could state your name and address for the record. Squyres: Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Ashley Squyres. I am the administrator for Meridian Development Corporation. My address is 104 East Fairview Avenue, No. 239, here in Meridian and just wanted to clarify a couple of different items for you this evening. First of all, we talked about a drop -- a drop dead date. That is October -- excuse me, I'm getting over a virus. That date is October 31 st. We have to have a signed development agreement by that period of time in order to move forward with either what is known as Option A or Option B with a specific plan. Excuse me again. That is really an important deadline for us. If I don't have a signed development agreement by October 31 we will move forward with Option B that does not include this property. We do not have the time in order to be able to get through the process as needed through the City Council and the hearings for the resolution in order to have that accomplished by the end of the year. If something should go awry with Option A with the property being in. Excuse me again. So, timing is absolutely critical. I also wanted just to clarify -- there was a comment made by staff regarding design standards. I'm not quite sure what he meant by that. There are no design standards that will be included into the specific plan for the Northern Gateway. What the Northern Gateway plan will state is what the type of projects we will be doing and that's more in the infrastructure realm. As we have talked about in the past, the legislature has limited the capabilities of urban renewal agencies in district -- new districts. So, basically, we have to be very specific in terms of projects. So, we are focusing on transportation projects. We are focusing on water, sewer infrastructure projects. But we are not delineating land uses. We are -- we are pointing to the Comprehensive Plan for that and we are not creating design standards as a part of this as well. Excuse me. So, I just wanted to make those two points this evening for you and I'm happy to answer any questions you have. I just wanted to say thank you to Mr. Tamura. He has been a very willing participant throughout this process. I know that there was some back and forth as to what was the correct process and what did we need for this evening. However, you know, I think we can get there. I think what Council Member Bernt suggested is a win-win for everybody. We certainly want this to be a part of the district. I think as Tori mentioned, it's about three million dollars that this project is estimated to generate over the life cycle of 20 years. Not 25 years. Twenty years. And so, you know, we think that this will be a hallmark for the entrance into downtown and so we would love to be a part of that if we possibly can. So, with that I am happy to stand Page 38 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 24 of 60 for questions. Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Ashley, I don't want to prolong this, because I understand you are under the weather. I appreciate you being with us tonight. I appreciate your comment about this Northern Gateway being kind of a hallmark for Meridian and I think that's where maybe at least some of my concern is coming, is that when we are thinking about this piece of land and the Northern Gateway, I guess for me the thought of C-stores, coffee shops, chain restaurants aren't what come top of mind. But I like all of those, I think they have a place in our community, I guess it's not what I initially envisioned for this. Is that in line with what MDC was envisioning for this area? Squyres: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Cavener, again, we are not getting into the specifics in terms of vision in terms of uses. What we are looking for is, you know, a variety of projects, how those will help support, you know, creating enough increment to be able to complete the list of infrastructure projects that we see a very real need for in downtown Meridian to allow for the continued growth and redevelopment. We do see a great opportunity, but we haven't said, as an agency, this is -- this is the exact type of project we want to see. We, again, will adhere to what the Comprehensive Plan says and if the applicant is able to demonstrate how they meet the intention of the Comprehensive Plan, which was very well vetted and thought out, then, I think MDC will certainly support that that-- that type of project. We do envision working very closely with Mr. Tamura on future -- on this project and future design and how this will all work together. But, again, I -- we are not -- we are not the agency to take a role in terms of dictating uses. That's -- that's not our purview at this time. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: So, maybe just to help me -- and I'm, you know, still learning. I'm just like everybody. Lifelong learner here. But when we had the Ten Mile Plan, you know, I know there was a Ten Mile Specific Area Plan and there were really specific design guidelines -- I think that we all like loved. Was that something driven outside of the MDC process and so because our planning staff -- I see Jessica nodding. She would know. So, it was because our planning staff had specifically made an area plan, that's how we got those kind of specific guidelines. I just want to understand how this is going to be different than Ten Mile. Squyres: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Strader, Ten Mile has a specific area plan, which is a planning document. It is its own mini comprehensive plan for that area. That is not Page 39 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 25 of 60 one and the same as the Ten Mile Urban Renewal District. Those are two very different documents. The Urban Renewal District document outlines the type of projects, such as water, sewer, transportation, infrastructure that will be accomplished with that. But it does not talk about uses, it does not talk about land use in any way. It just talks about the infrastructure side of things and the potential for reimbursement with MDC. The specific plan is a planning document that I believe the city took on -- I'm going to say the late -- mid to late 2000s. It's all kind of a blur at this point. But that -- those are just very two different planning documents. What we have for downtown that does not go as far on the north side of Fairview is Destination Downtown and so one of the things that we would like to do moving forward, if the Northern Gateway Plan should be adopted, is that we need to take a hard look at Destination Downtown, because that document is almost 12 years old at this time and I think there are some refinements and some revisions that need to be taken into account. In addition, we need to take in the property with the Northern Gateway that was not included in the original document and that talks a little bit more about the look and feel, what we would have expectations for and that was ultimately adopted by the City Council into your comp -- as a reference into your Comprehensive Plan. I hope that answered your question. Strader: Yeah, it did. I appreciate you walking us through the history there. That makes sense. I recall that the Comprehensive Plan had like specific area plans. That makes more sense. So, I guess would you envision that the Destination Downtown document would be updated to include this new district and would that, then, provide like design guidance at least two properties or--what I kind of am getting at is if--there is a difference I think-- if your intention is to expand the Destination Downtown and some of the guidance there, that would provide a really cohesive feel. I think if that didn't happen for some reason I'm just worried it could be kind of a disjointed area. Squyres: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Strader-- and that's a very tough point in question. The concern I have a saying, yes, that we should wait until Destination Downtown is updated is that that's going to take -- that's going to be quite the process. Again, it's almost a 12 year plan. There will need to be -- first of all, I need to get my agency board members on board to say yes to updating it and, then, that's probably at least a year and a half to two year effort if we do it right. So, I don't want to hold Mr. Tamura up based on the fact that we might update this document. What I would rather is that we all work together to come together with a project that we would all be very proud of and can support and I know that that's Mr. -- excuse me -- Mr. Tamura's intention as well. So, hope that answered your question. Simison: And, Ashley, if I could just piggyback on that. I think with the Destination Downtown you really have two different aspects. You have the walkable downtown elements, then, you have the auto-oriented elements. You know, what's in the urban renewal district is you get off the interstate until you get down to the split corridor and I think that really part of the conversation long term is what -- what does this intersection area look like and what are the expectations. We have three potential areas that could redevelop or may never redevelop and how do you apply something even in the short term for that long-term vision. So, it is a bigger question. But there are different standards Page 40 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 26 of 60 even within the downtown -- Destination Downtown document for different parts of the area and this -- I don't know that this is really the same that you are talking about when you look at Main and Pine or Meridian and Pine, as compared to when you will get Franklin and Meridian as an example. All right. Any further questions for Ashley? Okay. Thank you. Squyres: Thank you. Simison: Do we have anyone else signed up? Johnson: Mr. Mayor, only other person signed in. They didn't check that they wanted to testify. Simison: Okay. Then we will just go -- is there anybody else in the audience that would like to provide testimony on this item or anybody online that would like to provide testimony? You can use the raise your hand feature at the bottom of the screen. Okay. Seeing no one who would like to provide testimony, would the applicant like to come up with any final comments? Tamura: Doug Tamura. Boise, Idaho. Hey, I'm not real sure where we are heading, but I think the more control the city can, you know, have on this project, I'm more than willing to give that support, so -- you know, I would like to be part of this urban renewal district and I would like to see it move ahead, but at the same time I think we are only willing to do that with some -- some type of commercial zoning that we could go out and try to market future tenants -- users. So, yeah, I appreciate your help. Thank you. Simison: Thank you. Council, any additional questions? Bernt: Thanks, Doug. I appreciate you. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. I agree with Councilman Bernt. I appreciate you, too. We -- we love it when we hear applicants say that they want to work with the neighbors, that they really have their best interest of the city at heart. We just appreciate that. I mean more than we can say, because it's not that there aren't other applicants that -- that don't, we just really appreciate it being verbalized. Just one more question for you about how this might come to be. Are you hearing from the folks that are calling you that freestanding individual buildings are what is desired by the commercial community and is that why it was designed this way? Simison: Mr. Tamura, I think that was a question for yourself if you wouldn't mind. Perreault: Yeah. Sorry about that. Page 41 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 27 of 60 Tamura: Could you repeat that question? Perreault: Absolutely. Yeah. The -- the parties that have been interested in this -- in this property and they mainly have been companies who want individual freestanding buildings that they can own and that's the interest that you are receiving and that's why the original concept plan was designed this way? Tamura: Yeah. It was kind of a chicken or the egg. What staff was concerned about, if we gave them -- if we gave City Council too much of a blank palette that it was going to be hard to make any kind of ruling and -- and since I'm an architect and a lot of these users, we have developed already and we knew they -- they had contacted us, it was easy for us to put together the site plan to show how that could be developed. But if the city's goal and my goal is a higher and better use, then, I'm more than willing to go ahead and, you know, rethink about it and, you know, like I said, hopefully once we have zoning in place that, again, my phone's going to ring with different players. So, that's -- that's what I'm hoping. Perreault: Okay. Great. Thank you. Tamura: So -- yeah. So, I'm -- I'm not married -- I just showed that because I knew that's something that we could do if they wanted -- if they wanted a picture of what we could put there, I know I could put that there. Perreault: And we appreciate that, because that typically is what -- the staff is not wrong. That's typically what we do prefer is to get an idea of what the applicant's intended future plans are, but this is just such a unique location, unique property, I think we are moving forward with it a little bit differently. Tamura: Yeah. You know -- you know, is a C-store the highest and best use for that intersection? Well, I know I have a bird in the hand right now, but at the same time there has got to be higher and better users, so -- anymore questions? Thank you. Simison: So, how do you get to where you think you have heard and you want to go? Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: We will find out. I move that we close the public hearing on item H-2021-0048. Hoaglun: Second the motion. Simison: I have a motion and second to close the public hearing. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. Page 42 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 28 of 60 Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: Here is where I think that I hear us all headed is -- and, Doug, I appreciate your comments and -- and the cooperation with staff and the direction that's got us to where we are at. We would continue this item for two weeks -- one week? Two weeks? Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I can't prepare --Alan can't prepare the findings and I can't prepare a development agreement without an approval. So, if you continue it two weeks and, then, approve it you will miss the deadline. So, if you want to approve it tonight with the conditions that you will get the findings and the DA in two weeks, we can have that. Borton: So -- and maybe it's just a different way of getting there. I thought if -- I was going to continue the thought with assuming it would be approved in two weeks that you could have everything ready, assuming the approval is going to happen and the findings and the DA would all be on the same day. Nary: Mr. Mayor, I mean -- I guess we could do that. It would be -- it works either way, because the reality is if you grant approval tonight contingent upon the findings and the DA that comes back in two weeks, we are going to ask Mr. Tamura to sign that DA before he comes back to you on the 26th. If the Council still doesn't like it you are not going to approve it and so we haven't normally done it that way, but I don't know that the law prohibits us from doing it that way. I think you can approve them all together. If that's your preference we can do it, as long as that's the direction. Prepare the findings, prepare the development agreement, and do all of it at once -- I don't think it's not allowed. I think we can do that if that's your preference. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: I think the manner in which you get there are probably planning and legal, you will tell us. So, I will say what I think we all -- what we might want to do and, then, you can say we ought to do that in a week and, then, the next one in two weeks. So, it sounds like the concept would be we would go forward, approve the -- the annexation, zone it C- C, the entire parcel. Doug's comments with regards to providing the city that type of control, we would have the DA that goes with this annexation include provisions that capture that intent. Things such as, you know, no building permits without a concept plan. The mixed use community designation that this property has in the -- in the future land use map, that those principles of encouraging a more global concept plan for the area as a whole, candidly discouraging C-stores and gas stations from our discussion today. However you believe that can best be captured in a DA that would be signed concurrent with the annexation that retains that discretion for the Council at a future date, to address a DA modification and a concept plan if and when it's ready to come forward. So, if that's Page 43 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 29 of 60 the way we go, would that best be served by doing the whole caboodle on the -- in two weeks or break in one week and, then, another? Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Councilor, unless Planning has a concern, I don't have a concern in doing them all together. I think our normal concern is is that we are completely decided if we are going to approve it, we do all the work and, then, none of it gets approved. Tiefenbach: My preference would be to have the two weeks to have ample time to get this right and not be scrambling and, then, doing the whole thing together as -- Borton: Right. No. Nary: It doesn't have to be. Simison: We do it all on the 26th. Everything. Borton: So, here is what's key, Mr. Mayor. For that to happen is the -- the principles I just described, you would need to know those, because what will happen in two weeks it would be a signed DA. I mean it's ready, fire, aim -- Nary: Yes. Borton: -- to a certain extent. So, if Council has any other principles to capture in the DA this is the time to say it, so Legal and Planning can incorporate it. Because Doug would have a copy of it and have it signed before it comes back. So, a little backwards. Now is the one and only time to address that content, so -- that's what I -- that's what I heard us all describe to you make that magic happen to retain that control and -- Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: A little guidance maybe. Something I just thought of that I have never seen us do before, but what if we were to, you know, do what we just discussed, maybe continue it until next week and the week after, just so that we can maybe do a follow-up discussion in case there are any questions -- any concerns that staff or Legal might have that they can be addressed at that time and, then, continue it again for another week and, then, just get it all done. I know it's a lot of work, but we are trying to -- trying to think outside the box to be -- Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I guess -- so, the deadline for the 26th is next Tuesday afternoon, too. So, technically, we are going to miss the deadline if we do it that way. We -- we can prepare -- I'm pretty clear where you are. I think Alan's pretty clear where you are. Your other backstop, if your concern might be -- I think was expressed earlier -- that, again, if it's not Mr. Tamura it's someone else, comes in possession of this Page 44 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 30 of 60 property for whatever reason and they come back and they decide they want to build a C-store and a coffee shop in the corner and the Council at that time says that's not what we want. You can always de-annex it. Say if you don't want to follow the plan that we have, we are just going to de-annex it and so you still have safeguards in code and in the agreement that gives you the ability to control what happens. But we will build in those conditions that the development --that development agreement modifications are needed for all parcels in the -- on the plan. All building permits need to be approved by Council. Before building permits can be issued those site plans have to be approved by Council as a DA mod or a CUP if it's a height -- a height variance. So, I think we -- I think that's what I have heard. I think I'm comfortable crafting a DA for that. I think -- if Alan's comfortable with crafting findings from that, I don't know that we need to bring it back next week, because I don't know that that's really going to gain us anything. But if -- as long as you are comfortable and Alan's comfortable, I think I can make a DA like that. Simison: And maybe I'm oversimplifying it. I thought it was going to be like a one line DA that thou shalt not redevelop --thou shalt not develop until a new development agreement is done. Nary: Yeah. We get paid by the word, so it's a couple of more words than that, but it's generally the concept. Simison: That's, essentially, where I thought it -- Tiefenbach: That's kind of where I was landing. I was trying to figure out -- I'm hearing what the intent is, but my understanding was you can't do anything without a concept plan and a DA modification at a later date. Simison: It doesn't seem to be overly complex. Tiefenbach: That's -- that's where I was leaning. I didn't know how detailed you wanted to get, but it was basically you got your zoning, but if you want to do anything else you are going to come in front of Council with a full concept plan and a DA mod with all the conditions of approval. Nary: Right. And, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I think the only slight variation of what we had done previously is adding building permits for it as well. So, it isn't just the concept plan, but even building permits to build anything are all going to be tied to the same thing. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Just -- you know, we have closed the public hearing and I guess if by a shake of the head is the applicant -- does that -- is that direction he thought will work as well. Except for we have to reopen the public hearing to have you speak, so -- Mr. Mayor, I Page 45 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 31 of 60 move that we reopen the public hearing on Item H-2021-0048. Cavener: Second. Simison: I have a motion and a second to reopen the public hearing. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed same. The ayes have it. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Tamura: Mr. Mayor, Members of Council, Doug Tamura. You know, I guess my only concern -- and I might be able to squeeze it -- is the advertising part if we don't get this approved tonight. I'm assuming I would have to re-advertise for the next -- oh, so that will be waived? Oh. Okay. Yeah. No, then, whatever you guys decide is fine with me. Like -- like Alan had commented, I think it would be better to have everything on one plate that you guys can review, instead of doing it in two steps, you know. Yeah. I think that would be the best. Thank you. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I move that we close the public hearing on 2021-0048. Cavener: Second. Simison: I have a motion and second to close the public hearing. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it and the public hearing is closed. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Borton: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Borton. Borton: I move that we continue H-2021-0048 for two weeks for us to be able to review the findings and the DA or a mega global decision that encapsulates all that's been discussed today. Johnson: Mr. Nary, do you need to open the public hearing if you are continuing it? No? Okay. My apologies. Simison: Do I have a second? Hoaglun: Second the motion. Page 46 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 32 of 60 Simison: I have a motion and a second. Is there discussion on the motion? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Just want to make sure I'm like fully tracking. So, the idea would be in two weeks at that time it will -- the signed DA will be at that time. Any future development needs to include a DA modification and a concept plan to be approved by City Council in its full discretion. So, not like loose design -- like not like loose guidelines, but just full stop, full discretion. Simison: That's the intention. You will have to read the document to see if you agree with it, though. Strader: I got it. Thank you. Borton: Yeah. That's it. The concept plan that's on the screen is not part of it. Strader: Thank you. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: To our City Clerk's point, though, since we closed the public hearing now we vote and in two weeks there will not be a public hearing; correct? Simison: There will not be public comments. Hoaglun: Public comment. Okay. Simison: Unless you reopen the public hearing at that point in time, which you would be allowed to do if you so chose. Hoaglun: Okay. Simison: Okay. I have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it and the motion is agreed to and the item is continued. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. Simison: Okay. Council, why don't we go ahead and take a five minute break, if that works for everybody. So, we will stand in recess until 7:45. Page 47 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 33 of 60 (Recess: 7:38 p.m. to 7:47 p.m.) 3. Public Hearing for Heron Village Expansion (H-2021-0027) by Tamara Thompson of The Land Group, Inc., Located at 51, 125 and 185 E. Blue Heron Ln. A. Request: Annexation of 1.36 acres of land with a R-40 zoning district. B. Request: Rezone of 4.18 acres of land from C-G and R-8 to R-40. C. Request: Conditional Use Permit to allow expansion of an existing 108-unit, 5-building multifamily complex to allow an additional 36 units in two new buildings. Simison: Council, we will go ahead and come back from recess. Next item on the agenda is a public hearing for Heron Village Expansion, H-2021-0027, and we will open this public hearing with staff comments. Tiefenbach: Thank you, Council. Alan Tiefenbach, associate planner, City of Meridian. Okay. This is a -- it's a proposal for an annexation and zoning and a conditional use. The property is located southeast of the intersection of North Meridian Road and East Blue Heron, almost directly across the street and just a little bit up from the subject property that we just talked about. The property consists of six properties. Five of them are in the city and they are zoned C-C, R-40 and R-8. The property be to -- the property to be annexed to which -- let's see here. Is here. It's presently R-1 in the county. The site is located about a quarter mile north of the East Fairview, North Meridian Road intersection. So, the existing Heron Village Apartments consist of 108 units and five buildings. A conditional use was approved for the multi-family complex in 2013 and 2014 there was a modification to allow some replacement of several of the amenities. The whole thing was -- certificate of zoning compliance was issued in 2013. In 2020 the applicant requested a pre-application meeting with staff to discuss the annexation of an additional 1.36 acres of land. So, again, what you see here is what they are proposing to annex. What you can see all here, this is all -- this here is the existing development. They wanted to construct 36 more units in two buildings. Because the Heron Village Apartments are on several properties with different zone districts -- so, one of them's zoned R-8, this one is zoned C-G. Because of that we recommended that if they are going to do all this anyway, we would prefer that they rezone the whole thing to R-40 just to make it cleaner. So, that's part of why you are seeing this rezoning. The Comprehensive Plan recommends this for a mixed use neighborhood. There is one existing access to the property now, which is here. This serves the existing 108 units. There is one additional access which is proposed and that's what you see here. So, the grayed out, obviously, is what's there now. What you see in the darker black is what they are proposing. So, this building here. That building there. Meridian Fire commented that all the site -- although the site does provide two points of access -- again here and here -- they both go to North Meridian Road, which is not preferable. They prefer another point of access that does not solely rely on North Meridian Road. East Blue Heron Lane, which is here, terminates into a Page 48 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 34 of 60 pathway at the end and that connects to North Eureka Road, which is down here to the east. Based on discussions with the applicant, they agreed to widen this pathway to 15 feet or as approved by Meridian Fire and, then, provide bollards on either end for emergency access. The original staff report said 20 feet. We talked to the applicant. There is -- there is some physical constraints with telephone poles and things like that, so they can only get it to 15 feet or as approved by Meridian Fire and they are fine with that. You will see that in the conditions, so that's why the Planning Commission actually reduced it, which is kind of a little bit different of a change. Parking. So, phase one was required to provide 204 parking spaces, with 102 of them being covered. Two hundred and seven parking spaces are provided, with 195 of them being covered. Phase two is required to provide 69 parking spaces, 87 of them are provided, with 71 of them being covered. Six total bicycle spaces are required, but they are actually providing I believe 50 bicycle storage indoor spaces. The parking -- but long story short, the parking exceeds by 21 spaces now over what they are required per the code. Meridian Fire, police, and the surrounding residents have commented the parking has been a continuous issue for this development as residents and guests often have to park on both sides of East Blue Heron Drive, which makes emergency access and everything else very difficult on that street. One cause of this issue -- and the major cause of this issue is that many of the garages that are being intended for parking are actually being used for storage. So, everybody puts their stuff in the garages and, then, they park somewhere else, so you lose all that space. We talked to the -- fire about that and the applicant and our recommendation is to -- is that there is a condition of approval that garages can't be used for the covered parking, it would be carports. It's a lot harder to use carports for storage than garages, so that would at least lead to that issue being somewhat reduced. There are actually some other stuff that the Planning Commission talked about, which I will get into later, that I think is resolved. Open space and amenities. So, 41,800 and -- basically 41,000'ish square feet of open space was required with -- with phase one, whereas 53,000 was provided. Ten thousand two hundred square feet was required with phase two and 15,000 square feet is proposed. So, it exceeds the requirements. Four amenities from each category are required for multi-family developments of more than 75 units, but with multi-family developments of more than a hundred, the decision making body should require what -- should decide whether or not the additional amenities are appropriate for the size of the proposed development. So, again, they are required to have four. What they have got here is a half basketball court, a plaza containing benches and trellises, 1,600 square foot clubhouse with an exercise room, playground, a horseshoe pit, barbecues and picnic tables. With the proposed expansion the applicant proposes a larger open space. What you see here is the open space plan. So, in blue is what was required --what was required and provided with phase one. What you see in the orangish or yellow'ish, that's what is being shown in two. And, then, the red is what's being shown for the amenities. There is architecture elevations that were consistent with the existing complex. We have received numerous phone calls and letters about this. Pretty much all of these -- well, there is really two issues. First one was, not surprisingly, parking. People parking up and down Blue Heron Drive. The other one -- there was some discussions about trash -- people throwing trash along the street. There was a lot of discussion about this. Staff's recommendations was that phase one and two have to share access, parking management, and open space in case one -- in case this got Page 49 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 35 of 60 approved and, then, another piece got sold off and suddenly now you have two different apartment complexes. So, we were looking at it as a holistic thing. We wanted to make sure that it continued to stay holistic. There -- we had a recommendation that they would widen and improve the pathway between East Blue Heron and North Eureka to 15 feet versus what was originally 20. We are okay with 15. Fire is okay with 15. We weren't thrilled about the condenser units on the north side of Building F, which are right along East Blue Heron. The way that they were screened with just fencing, we thought that would be kind of hard, so we were recommending it did say additional landscaping there, which they were okay with, and, again, that the covered parking could only be satisfied by carports, not garages. The Planning Commission on 16, there was -- there was quite a bit of discussion about this. Almost all of it was in regard to parking. What the Planning Commission recommended, in addition to staff's recommendations, is that prior to the City Council the applicant will have a parking plan that's been addressed byACHD. Prior to City Council the applicant will have an agreement with the property management company on enforcement of the parking regulations. That the applicant add additional trash receptacles and, then, again, that the pathway be widened. My understanding -- and I'm sure the applicant would be able to talk about that -- is they have talked to ACHD -- this was new news I got I believe today, that they have talked to ACHD and ACHD is okay with striping all of Blue Heron as no parking to basically eliminate any parking along the road all together. With that that concludes my presentation -- for any questions or for the applicant. Simison: Thank you, Alan. Council, questions for staff? Bernt: Mr. Mayor, I have one question. Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Alan, my question is -- is regarding the parking along Blue Heron. Just -- just for clarification, that's not a private roadway; right? That's public. Tiefenbach: That's public road, sir. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Sorry, you're -- was that Strader or Perreault? Perreault: Perreault. Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. Alan, am I understanding correctly that there are currently five buildings and there is 108 units in those five buildings? Tiefenbach: That is correct. So, this -- this is quite a bit larger of a structure than the other buildings size wise? No. These are comparable. We are talking two more Page 50 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 36 of 60 buildings, not one, so -- Perreault: Oh, two more. Okay. Tiefenbach: Two buildings of 16 units each. Perreault: Sixteen. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Tiefenbach: The buildings themselves, both architectural and site plan, are virtually identical to what's there now. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Alan, is this commitment from the highway district to -- striping listed as no parking, did that come as an e-mail from the highway district to you? Is it--we are hearing this secondhand? I'm just curious where that piece is coming from, because I'm not seeing it in our packet. Tiefenbach: It just came in today. Chris, I thought that -- I don't know if you can get into the laserfiche. I can't. I'm pretty sure that I forwarded that to the city clerk, if he wants to look and see. I believe that there was some language underneath from ACHD that -- I think I forwarded it to you, Chris, if you can take a look and see if you have it. Give us just a second. Cavener: Thanks. Tiefenbach: Again, I can defer to the applicant, but, yes, I believe that there was some language from ACHD there. Cavener: Thank you. Appreciate it. Simison: Council, any -- Council Woman Strader. Strader: Yes. Thanks. Quick one. I just didn't see it handy. How many garages serve as parking spaces from the original development? Tiefenbach: Let me get back to that. Keeping me on my toes here. Phase One was 204 parking spaces required, with 102 of them required and what was provided with phase one was 195. So, they were required 102, they provide 195. Those are all garages. Then phase two they would be required on 36 of them being covered and they are providing 71 of them being covered, but they can't do garages, they have to do carports. Strader: I was just hoping that there was a smaller number of garages from the phase one development that they could make up for that number of garages, because clearly Page 51 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 37 of 60 that garage concept is not working. Tiefenbach: I have actually considered maybe discussing internally with staff and development whether we want to continue with the garage ideas in apartments, because we seem to keep having this problem. It's not in there? Simison: Council, any additional questions for staff while we look for that issue? Tiefenbach: He doesn't have it on the laserfiche yet. I got it later in the day. I couldn't remember if I forward it to him. I believe there is language in from ACHD, but I'm pretty sure that the applicant has a copy of that e-mail and they can -- they can share that with you. Simison: Okay. Seeing no more questions for staff, we will go ahead and turn the time over to the applicant and -- Tamara, if you want to state your name and address for the record, please. Thompson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of Council. Tamara Thompson. I'm with The Land Group. We are at 462 East Shore Drive in Eagle. And I have a PowerPoint, if I can share my screen. Johnson: Tamara, you can do that now. Thompson: Okay. Can you see that? Simison: Yes. Thompson: Excellent. All right. So, this is an in-fill project. Many of my slides are the same as Alan's, so I will just go through them real quickly. The property is located on the east side of Meridian Road between Fairview and Ustick, on the south side of East Blue Heron and East Blue Heron is a public right of way. Get a little zoom in of it. So, these are the two properties that would be -- that are being proposed as phase two and, then, this is phase one. This is a different development to the south that is accessed off of East James Court Drive to the south. So, the existing facility is -- is right here, if you can see my cursor. As Alan showed you, the area is a patchwork quilt of zones. The existing property has both an R-40 zone and a C-G zone and you can see that to the south is R- 40, to the north is R-40. So, the expansion area is R-8, which is the City of Meridian already and, then, this R-1, which is in Ada county. So, we are proposing to annex 1.36 acres and that's the R-1 zoned property and, then, rezone and zone that property, plus the R-8 and, then, the C-G. So, that makes 5.54 acres that would be rezoned to -- or zoned to the R-40 and that will clean up that patchwork that you see there. So, the -- you can see this -- I put that on there. So, you could see that shape is this darker line color there. So, there is 36 additional units in two buildings and these buildings are the same. So, Alan mentioned that they were 16 units -- two 16. They are not. This is a 24-plex and a 12-plex. What exists in phase one is four 24-plex and one 12-plex. So, exact same building types from -- from phase one to phase two, we just have one of each of those. Page 52 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 38 of 60 So, 108 units in phase one and these two buildings with the 24-plex and a 12-plex, then, an additional 36 units. So, the grand total is 144. One item that -- that Alan mentioned is all of the covered parking and that is incorrect. The garages are only 54 in phase one and, then, zero in phase two. So, not all of the covered parking are garages in phase one. Let's see here. So, here we are in phase two. Alan mentioned the parking stalls, that we have 21 more parking stalls with this expansion for the overall. So, it will be operated and managed as one complex. So, this is an expansion, not a new facility. So, overall there is 21 more parking stalls than code requires and, then, on the open space the project exceeds that. The requirement for phase one was 52,070 square feet and it provided 68,330 and, then, with phase two it adds an additional 15,300, which is 16,260 square feet more than what code requires. Just wanted to show a few pictures of what the existing facility looks like. There is a clubhouse with the existing facility with phase one. There is a tot lot and open areas with kind of a dog park and, then, you can see here there is a horseshoe pit and this is a photo of one of the interiors of the units. The architecture is consistent with the existing buildings in the community. They are three stories and they are fully sprinkled. And, then, just a summary of the existing amenities and, then, the new proposed amenities. So, some of the items that came up with either the neighborhood meeting or in Planning and Zoning -- so, in the neighborhood meeting the neighbors brought up some of the -- the issues with parking along the public right of way in East Blue Heron and due to those comments the management company did a parking study, an audit, and they did this for a 30 day time period and we have submitted that. Hopefully it's in your packet, but we submitted that prior to Planning and Zoning. So, between the dates of February 24th and March 25th, between 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., each evening they audited the -- the number of parking that was available within the community and, then, they also counted the number of parking stalls on East Blue Heron and the audit concluded that the Heron Village has more than enough parking spaces to meet the needs of its tenants. So, within that 30 days that 82 percent of parking stalls were occupied. That each evening there were -- in the week days there were 35 parking stalls vacant within the community and that's an average and within that same 30 -- 30 days there were four weekends and on the weekends there were 38 to 39 stalls available. So -- and, then, they counted how many were on Blue Heron and there were an average of 24 vehicles on Blue Heron, 12 on the north and 12 on the south. So, if all 24 of those are part of the community, they -- there would be more than enough parking for them to be in the -- in the community's parking area. The -- the residents in the community when they signed lease agreements they have to report their license plate numbers and the managers did a cross-check on those and what they found is that it was roughly 70 percent of the parking were residents and 30 percent were not residents of Heron Village community. What they have worked on is -- and let me show you this next one. So, to address that they are -- as of November 1 st they will be issuing these parking permits. They are little statically -- kind of like when you get your oil changed. It will be a little sticker on your car, so they will be able to -- to track those a little better and they have also been working with a third party on a -- on parking enforcement to drive through the lot a couple of times in an evening and to -- and to -- to keep that up. Also what they have done is they have a newsletter that -- where they have been encouraging everyone not to park on the street, but to park in the community and they have issued addendums to their leases, so anyone that has a current lease they have given them an addendum to Page 53 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 39 of 60 their lease that goes through different parking requirements and some of the items that they have addressed is that a -- the garages are for vehicles only and are not to be used for storage. They are implementing a twice a year where they will look and audit those and go into those garages twice a year to make sure that there aren't storage, but, then, also if they see that they are used for storage they will do something about it then. They are also implementing that vehicles have to be registered and operated -- operable at all times and no recreational vehicles or oversized trucks are allowed and the lease agreement can be terminated within a 30 day notice. And, then, part of the other was trash and they have added this trash receptacle up on the -- on the road. They do have them throughout the site. This -- they have a temporarily one that they have added while this one is on order, but this one will be put up near Blue Heron. Let's see. And, then, I wanted to reiterate that currently this portion of Blue Heron is just a walkway, but it is ACHD right of way. So, the roadway really ends here and -- but ACHD, as you can see with these green lines, has right of way all the way through to North Eureka and to address Fire Department comments that we will be widening that for their vehicles. And, then, to go to ACHD. I received an e-mail from Dawn over at ACHD and I actually -- I submitted that to -- to the city yesterday and to give you a summary, it says that Blue Heron Lane is a 36 foot wide street section and that is measured from back of curb to back of curb. ACHD says it is sufficient to allow on-street parking on both sides of the roadway and to provide the necessary 20 feet of emergency access required by fire code. They said if the applicant is asking for no parking signs, that they would likely deny that request, but they are happy to work closely with the Meridian Police Department or the Fire Department. So, there is three options they said for reducing parking. One would be for ACHD staff to coordinate with the Meridian Police Department and, then, that request would be submitted to ACHD. Or they said that if the Meridian Fire Department requires no parking fire lane signs on either one or both sides of Blue Heron Lane, then -- then ACHD would be happy to coordinate with them. Or the third option for residents, if the residents of every -- or all the property owners along Blue Heron, if they would submit a petition that is signed by 75 percent of the homeowners abutting Blue Heron Lane, but the apartment complex only gets one of those votes, then, they would look at that. So, those are the three options. And so they didn't necessarily say the entire thing would be no parking and, frankly, I would -- I think people are parking on the road, because it's probably more convenient. When they pull in maybe it's closer to where their unit is, because it is -- I mean they have shown with the audit that there is substantial parking for the site. But that's not the issue. That perhaps keeping parking on the south side of Blue Heron would be appropriate and, then, getting rid of the parking on the north side where it's adjacent to the townhouses to the north. So, we have read the staff report and we thank staff for their thorough review. We agree with staff's analysis and recommended conditions of approval and we respectfully request your approval tonight and I will stand for questions and I neglected to tell you I also have representatives from the management company and from the architectural firm if you have questions that I can't answer. Simison: Thank you, Tamara. Council, any questions? Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Page 54 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 40 of 60 Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor. Tamara, thank you for the presentation. You noted that there will -- the one unit is 20 -- one building is 24 units and the other building is 12 units. Is that a mix of one, two, three bedrooms? Can you give me a -- kind of a concept of the -- the sizes that are there or maybe just how many bedrooms total per building? Thompson: Absolutely. Mr. Mayor and Councilman Hoaglun. Let's see. The -- I don't have this blown up right here, but this is where this summary is. There is the bed and bath count. So, I'm going to just give you an overview. So, there are one bedroom, one bath units and -- so, I'm going to give you the total with phase one and phase two. Does that -- is that okay with you? So, the total for phase one and phase two, one bedroom, one bath, there is 30 of those units. Two bedroom, one bath, there is five. Two bedroom, two bath, 85. Three bedroom, two bath, 24. Did I go too fast? Do I need to say it again? Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Tamara, yeah, just -- you have a one bedroom, one bath -- Thompson: Thirty. Hoaglun: A total -- so, that would be a total of 30 on that one. Thompson: Uh-huh. Hoaglun: And you get -- Thompson: Two bedroom -- Hoaglun: Yeah. Two bedroom. Thompson: Two bedroom, one bath. Hoaglun: So, ten more with two bedroom and, then, a two bedroom, two bath, there were 85 of those. Thompson: Yeah. But back up to the two bedroom, one bath, there is five. Simison: And he's counting how many? Hoaglun: So, that makes -- Page 55 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 41 of 60 Thompson: Oh. Okay. Hoaglun: -- ten bedrooms. So -- Thompson: Okay. Got you. So, then -- yeah. Then -- then two bedroom, two bath, there is 85 of those. And, then, three bedroom, two bath, there is 24. Hoaglun: Twenty-four. Okay. I'm just trying to get a sense here of what I'm seeing, even in a subdivision, let alone apartment or multi-family unit development, is just more vehicles everywhere, whether it's kids living in apartments or even at home. I know on our screen a neighbor apologized because he had his one son living at home, not married. The daughter and her husband are living there. They are trying to buy a house, but not have any success. They have a three car garage to store everything, park one vehicle in it, three cars in the -- parking in their driveway and one on the street and, then, when someone comes to visit there is another vehicle there, so -- and you just -- same thing occurs with -- with multi-family. So, it's just -- I think -- and, Alan, I could be wrong, you know, our push is to reduce driving and -- and that's why we don't do a one to one. I think this is 1.5 spaces per unit; is that correct, Alan? Tiefenbach: Based on bedrooms. Hoaglun: Bedrooms. Tiefenbach: Between 1.5 to two is whether -- I believe it's on -- three or more bedrooms is where it kicks in. But it's based on the number of bedrooms. It's not just pure 1.5. Hoaglun: So, I'm just trying to make sure, Tamara, that -- you know, you are -- you are above this city standard, but sometimes I wonder if our city standard is a little too low. So, I'm just trying to -- trying to do some math here and I was a political science major, not a math major, so I'm a little slow at it. Thompson: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, the parking is over by -- by 21. But, then, also I think that--that audit that they did for those 30 days really shows that it --that there is adequate parking as well. That the on-street parking isn't -- isn't happening because there is no parking in the community. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you. So, ultimately -- you know, this parking conversation is challenging, because the city doesn't want to try to micromanage the -- the applicants with this, but when we have multiple complaints we -- you know, we do want to try to resolve that before making an approval of this kind. So, some specific questions, then, about the parking study that was done. The 70 percent that lived in the units and the 30 percent that did not, was that just within the complex or -- or did they run their license Page 56 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 42 of 60 plates on the street as well? And, then, is there -- with that information are you going to allow for at least 30 percent of your spots to be accessed by nonpermitted vehicles or what's the ratio going to be with the number of permitted spots or -- or not or is it just a free for all and do you have spots assigned to individual units, so that people aren't parking on the street and they get a spot that's closest to their apartment? Thompson: All right. Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, lots of questions there. I might have to have you go back and ask them again. So,just to give you a little summary. So, in phase one there are 207 total parking stalls regardless of covered or garage or surface and they currently have 126 registered vehicles for those parking stalls. So, 207 and, then, 126 are registered for those. The covered parking stalls and the garages are assigned. Then anything that's not covered -- so, let's see, out of the 207 existing, 168 of those are covered. So, doing that math that's roughly 40, 50, somewhere in that range, that are not covered and so those are just for anyone to park in and I can have the management company get on if you would like to dive in a little deeper, but I believe that the second phase will -- will work the same way. The covered parking stalls are assigned and then -- and those are assigned closest to your unit and then -- and, then, the ones that aren't covered will be first come, first serve. Perreault: Thank you. If I -- if I calculate that correctly in phase one you only have about 19 percent of the spots that are uncovered that could be used for free parking, which doesn't meet that 30 percent estimate -- or, you know, it doesn't match up with what they observed. I don't know if the -- if the applicant and/or the management company are, you know, considering changing how the parking is done in -- more in line with this -- with what they observed through this study, but it makes sense to me that -- to do that, so that that might help eliminate some of the parking along the street as well. Thompson: So, Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, I'm confused on the 30 percent. So, when they -- they did cross-reference the -- the license plates to what they had in their files that were parking on the street and they found that 30 percent of those were not registered to the community. Seventy percent of them were and so they had parking within the community, but 30 percent could be -- there is -- there is businesses on that street and there is also townhouses to the north. So, they could be for other areas. Is that -- I guess you lost me with that 30 percent. I'm not tracking that. Perreault: So, when you -- when you were doing the presentation you didn't specify if the 70-30 was for on the street or if it was within the complex. I assumed it was within the complex. Thompson: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. The on -- the on-street parking -- of those stall -- of the cars, there were 24 -- an average of 24, 12 on each side, that were parking there in the evenings and 70 percent of those were -- they could attribute to the community -- to the Heron Village and 30 percent were are not in their files. Perreault: So, if the -- if the city takes the route --the applicant--one or the other, however that works out, of eliminating parking from the north side of the street, then, do those 24 Page 57 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 43 of 60 now park on the south side or -- there is no longer 12 on the north and 12 on the south. So, help me understand how the -- what's being proposed is actually going to -- I'm still not connecting the dots on how what's proposed is actually going to reduce the on-street parking. Thompson: The on-street parking will -- could -- could remain for the -- and what -- what I'm proposing is -- is on the south side of the road. I believe the issue was that there was a concern with on-street parking that the road was narrow. So, you still -- you couldn't get the 20 foot roadway -- what is acceptable for fire access. But it's uncomfortable if there is a car going in each direction, which -- I mean Blue Heron is not a through street, it's -- it dead ends. But my understanding of what the issue was is that it's not comfortable for two cars to cross at the same time, one in each direction and so that's what the complaints were about, that -- that when cars are parked on each side it narrows that road down that feels unsafe and so eliminating one side and even if all 24 could fit on the south side, that--that would be fine. Then it would just leave the pavement section wider, so that two cars could cross -- could pass at the same in the -- in opposite directions at the same time. Simison: Council, any additional questions for the applicant? Strader: Mr. Mayor? Liz. Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thank you. I have been on two police ride alongs and coincidentally on each ride along this development was pointed out specifically to me as what we should not do going forward. I will just start with that. I think we are spending -- I have heard anecdotally like in an ordinate amount of resources dealing with the inadequate parking here and so I have a lot of the same concerns as Council Woman Perreault. What is the long-term plan for automobile connectivity here? Can you walk me through ACHD's plans with their master street map and does this applicant control like the property to the east? Is there an intention to connect, so that Blue Heron isn't the only outlet? Like what's the long-term plan? Thompson: Mr. Mayor, Council -- Council Woman Strader, the -- the master street plan -- and, actually, I could pull up my -- the staff report from ACHD. So, the master street plans don't go into this kind of detail from ACHD, but they currently have this as -- as right of way. My understanding is that when these properties develop, which this -- this -- the owner of this does not own these, nor are they for sale. This is a meatpacking plant here that when these were to redevelop and come into the city, that the improvements with the sidewalk -- that that would connect at that time. But I need to double check that staff report from ACHD to see if they addressed that. They definitely addressed the emergency access being able to come through here, but there is no other -- there is no other outlet other than this through here right on Blue Heron. Strader: Yeah. I guess that's my concern. I understand they have the right of way, but, Page 58 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 44 of 60 you know, it's tough, but they have a lot of different projects and haven't heard that this would be a priority absent the development of those other properties. I was hoping your applicant controlled them. That would make things a lot easier. So, I mean that's a concern for me is just access in general and putting more people on the same street to access Meridian Road I think is an issue. Talk to me about how you located the parking for this second phase. Were you -- did -- was there an idea of locating the parking closer to the rest of the development to help alleviate the parking issues? And I understand there is like a net contribution of 21 additional parking spaces, just make -- want to make sure I understand the math on that. So, 21 above and beyond what's required. I guess that's not really half of the garage parking spaces of 54 garage covered parking spaces that don't work from phase one. So, just wanted to understand kind of the rationale of how you sized the parking and where you located it for the second phase. Thompson: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Strader, my first comment there is staff is speculating on the garages. There was no -- staff didn't go to the site and look in these garages and the management has been very diligent about talking to the tenants and letting them know that storage is not acceptable in them. So, I'm not sure that -- that the comment about the --the garage is being used for storage is -- is accurate, because that's not what I'm hearing from the management company. As far as the locations of parking on the -- on the new site, they definitely put these as close to -- to the buildings. They have -- you know, so they -- they wrap around the buildings. These are located closer to some of the buildings in phase one and for this 24-plex and, then, because this is a commercial property, definitely use those parking stalls to buffer that commercial property as well. The parking is -- is arranged for convenient access to -- to the units. Simison: Okay. Council -- Thompson: So -- Simison: I was going to see if we could get to some of the public testimony or if we need to keep going into this at this point in time. Okay. Bongiorno: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Where is that -- Bongiorno: That was over here. Simison: Mr. Bongiorno, can it wait until after we hear from the public? Bongiorno: Sure. Simison: Okay. We do have some very pleasant people waiting here. I assumed they are not just here to listen to the conversation. Mr. Clerk? Johnson: Mr. Mayor, we have one signed in. Cynthia Cisco. Am I pronouncing that Page 59 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page—of 60 correct? Cynthia? Simison: Well -- well, is there anybody present that would like to provide testimony at this time? If you would like to come forward at this time and just state your name and address for the record, please. Sorenson: My name is Valinda Sorenson. I live at 138 East Waterbury Lane across from the apartments. And sorry I'm nervous. Simison: You will do fine. Sorenson: I would really like to address the numbers that the -- that they came up with for the parking, the -- the management when they did the survey. It's so unrealistic and we live there, so we deal with it firsthand every day and, in fact, at our last meeting that we had -- we attended -- I attended here and when I went home that night there was 63 cars parked on the street. I went up -- I walked up and down the street and I counted. There was 63. And the area where they are -- they are building -- I'm not quite sure how to tell you on the map, but on -- adjacent to Blue Heron where it's the big rectangle, the big building, right there there is -- it's an open field right now. They are actually parking in the field as well. So, there is not only cars on the street, they are parking on the -- in the field. So, if they are going to build more apartments -- there is already about 63 cars on the street, so is that going to make 120 cars on the street after they build the apartments? And I don't know how they came up with the numbers, but I can go out there any day and count 32 cars on the street and still parking and that includes sometimes parking in the -- in the -- in that open field there. So, you know, it's just very frustrating, you know, the -- to know where they come up with the numbers and I understand that they -- if they did do a survey at 8:00 to 10:00, that doesn't count the weekends when they all have their -- their friends visiting, you know, and I do know from talking to certain people -- because I talk to the tenants sometimes when they come, you know, when they are parked on the street and they -- they get out of their cars, I'm just real friendly, I talk to them and there is more than one family living in one apartment. Sometimes there is four people living in those apartments. That's four cars, not just one. But there is four cars. So, that's just -- something I just really want to address, because it's not realistic, these numbers that they are coming up with, and we live there, we have to deal with it, we deal with the noise. You know, like we said, the trash, you know, they seem to think that our common area is their trash can and putting a container on their side of the street -- yes, thank you for doing that, but they are not going to use it, let's be real here, you know. It's too easy just to throw it, you know, or-- you know. Anyway, I just want to thank you for listening to us and -- and thank you. But if they do open up that access to the -- to the -- to Eureka over there, that small section of the road, it's just going to be more traffic coming through our street. So, the parking issue on the street really does need to be addressed. Thank you for listening to me. Simison: Thank you. Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Page 60 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 4V of 60 Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: I have a question for you and I didn't catch your name. I apologize. Sorenson: My name is Valinda Sorenson. Valinda. Bernt: Valinda. I appreciate you coming this evening. Sorenson: Thank you. Bernt: Just real quick. They are going to put bollards on -- on the end of that street, so you won't have any through traffic. Just -- but that's not what I was going to say. So, my -- my question to you is -- and I have seen this in other areas where I have made comments that haven't been real popular with the developer and -- but it's a real fact that -- I mean there are times during the day where, you know, parking along these streets fluctuate. Sorenson: Uh-huh. Bernt: You know, I feel like a lot of times in the morning it's super populated, then, they all go to work and so during the day when you are going through these certain sections are fine, but, then, in the evenings they come back from work and it's really populated again. Is that what you are experiencing with this -- Sorenson: Yes. Bernt: -- this area? Sorenson: Yes. Bernt: Okay. Sorenson: Yeah. And the -- the noise -- the noise level at night is just -- it's becoming worse and worse. Bernt: Right. Sorenson: As -- you know. Of course, the -- and I'm sure it depends on how full the -- the units are, too, you know. Bernt: I get it. Sorenson: You know how full they are, too. But I have -- I have lived there now for five -- like five years and the street has been -- we have had them park up -- there is so many cars on the street -- it's the whole entire street, even clear down by the meatpackers. Page 61 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page— of 60 Bernt: Right. Sorenson: And the business that's behind the meatpackers, I think it's a -- it's an electric company or something, they have -- they have semi trucks that deliver products all the time. So, when you have got a semi truck coming down the road, cars parked on both sides, it's a narrow street-- you know, I don't care what anybody says, it's a narrow street, it -- it is difficult. It's very difficult. And if you don't -- if you don't do anything, please, mark the red from -- from their entrance to our entrance at -- I think it's Richter there. Mark that red, so that we can pull in and off of North Meridian safely. It is so dangerous pulling in and off of that road, because the cars park so close to North Meridian and they just jam in there, so -- Simison: Thank you. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Ms. Sorenson, a couple questions if you wouldn't mind. Just -- I just want to make sure I understand some things. Where you live on East Waterbury Lane, is that private or is that a public road? Sorenson: It's a private road. It's the -- we are a senior complex. Hoaglun: Okay. Sorenson: And that's another issue. We -- you know, we have -- we live on Social Security and so our income is fixed and our road is private and they drive up -- they drive on our road all the time. We have to pay for that road. It's -- that's not public road. We have to pay for that. And so instead of-- I mean how can they turn around when they get on there, because they have to go somewhere to turn around, they don't want to go to the end, so they just go down our street. Hoaglun: So, just as an aside then. So, you want to make it a toll road, so you can raise -- Sorenson: Yeah. Hoaglun: There we go. Sorenson: There we go. Hoaglun: We can do that. We will tackle that one next, but -- for right now on the -- on the parking issue, would it help if there was a request for no parking on that north side of Blue Heron along -- that would be your -- your side of the street at least, you know, and we will have Deputy Chief Bongiorno from the Fire Department we will be talking about Page 62 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 48 of 60 the width and access and different things that we -- Sorenson: May I just say that that would help, you know. It would probably solve the trash problem. It would probably solve, you know, the noise issue for a lot of it for us. Hoaglun: And, Mr. Mayor, if I might -- one more? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: And in relation to the noise you mentioned, is that like -- is it car stereos or is it just how loud the cars are with their lack of exhaust systems or enhanced exhaust systems or -- Sorenson: It's that. It's the --you know,just they are talking in the apartments themselves can get very loud, you know, when they -- on weekends and -- and you know, that, too, so -- Hoaglun: Good. Thank you. That was -- that was helpful. Sorenson: Thank you. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Sorry. One more, Valinda, if you don't mind. I appreciate you coming out and -- Sorenson: Sorry. I'm so nervous. Cavener: -- representing your -- your neighborhood. In the testimony you sent us you indicated that it was kind of your belief that apartment residents are also -- you think using your street and I know because I was in your neighborhood earlier this last week and you got kind of -- when you pull into your neighbor a couple of parking spots. Are you finding that apartment residents are also parking in those spots and on your street or they are just driving through it? Sorenson: They drive through, plus they do park in our parking places for our guests. That's for our guests and we have had some confrontations when we have asked them to please move and we always ask nicely. We are not -- you know, I mean we are all old there, we don't want any confrontations and we have had some really heated ones where I have had the F word used at me and -- and they just walk away like, you know, you can't tell us what to do, you know. Cavener: So, Mr. Mayor, follow up if I can. Page 63 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 49 of 60 Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Valinda, I think you and your neighbors that have submitted testimony have all been very nice and just you want quality of life in your house. I think the Council is sympathetic to that. That's where my question comes from is I guess my worry is because -- because initially I was supportive of prohibiting parking on Blue Heron. I was actually in favor in both sides, but I worry will that just push those cars into your neighborhood, into your public street and are we creating a unintended future nuisance that you guys are going to be stuck dealing with? Sorenson: Well, the only thing that we could do, then, is to make arrangements to post -- I mean that they will be towed. It is private property and they will be towed, you know. Cavener: Thank you. Simison: Council, any additional questions? Okay. Thank you very much. Sorenson: Thank you. Simison: I don't know if there is anybody else who would like to provide testimony on this item from the audience or if there is anybody online you can use the raise your hand feature at the bottom. Oh, we do have someone, Mr. Clerk. Johnson: Mr. Mayor. Summer, you are able to unmute yourself. Simison: And, Summer, if you can state your name and address for the record, please. Hazen: Yes, of course. My name is Summer Hazen and my address is 800 West Main Street, Suite 1410 in Boise, Idaho. 83702. I'm not sure if you can see me or not. I see all your faces, but that's absolutely okay. So, I am actually-- I'm the regional manager for Heron Village. I work for the management company. I wanted to thank Valinda for coming over tonight and sharing her experience. As a management company generally for residents we always speak to ensuring peace, comfort, quiet, enjoyment at all times and we want to ensure that we are elevating that level of customer service and so it's not just within our community, but our neighbors as well, because as apartments are being built more and more and I have been doing this for 14 years now, I know that we ended up sharing our property lines and sometimes we are right next to residential homes. So, we always try and work with the neighbors to the best of our ability, which is--which is allotted for us. So, I did want to, you know, go back to the parking, because that is such a large concern and, of course, it's -- it's a concern of ours as a management company for the onsite manager and when the residents are reaching out to me if they -- they have a question or concern internally. For the covered spaces, as we had spoken to, there is a total of 127 carports. A hundred and eight of those are automatically assigned to a resident when they move in, giving us an additional 19 spaces that are not assigned to the residents and, then, 13 uncovered spaces throughout the property. So, those are 32 uncovered spaces internally and, then, with the garages of the 54, as of today we have Page 64 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 50 of 60 40 of those that are occupied and those are rentable on a first come, first serve basis. But conversations that we have had currently with ownership and the onsite team is going back to that ratio, how many vehicles are happening per apartment homes and you are correct we are seeing more of a roommate situation depending on the community, but we are open and willing to assign a second space to our three bedrooms, so that as people start to move out of the garages -- and there is only 12 today and, then, we are going to add those additional 12 in -- in phase two, so we can offer a second space, so two are always going to be assigned for the three bedroom, two baths and the garage spaces and earlier Tamara spoke to auditing and we absolutely do an audit on a biannual basis, twice a year. Generally at most we say probably three to five that we come across that are actually fully stuffed full of stuff for storage that we have to go back and speak to those residents. Our current lease agreement that is in place that has been in place since TableRock has managed the asset close to a little over three years now is very detailed. But our lease in general is very detailed. It mentions parking in there almost 30 different times, right, throughout just surface parking, what we allow, what we don't allow and if we do find that anybody is in breach of contract we can issue notification with three days to remedy that; right? You have got three days to ensure that this is addressed or we can terminate. And so it's very rare that we have to reach to that level, because, of course, we do not want to do that, we want to ensure that the residents that live there have a great experience. So, we as a management company are willing to be flexible and change those garages into assigned, if that's going to make it easier. But, again, I also -- the auditor -- Simison: Can you, please, summarize your comments. Your time is -- Hazen: Oh, yes. Simison: -- is over. Hazen: Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I have a time limit. I apologize. So, overall we are willing to be flexible. We can absolutely assign a second parking space. The community manager, she actually lives on site, so she's the one that personally did the audit. She also faces the street, so concerns in regards to noise or complaints she gets some firsthand, because she lives there so she can address it pretty immediately and, then, for the cleanliness we have maintenance on site five days a week. So, they are also going up and down Blue Heron and picking up trash per recent requests from just the neighbors saying that trash is being left out there. So, we are working to make corrections as quickly as we possibly can. Simison: Okay. Thank you. Council, any questions? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Summer, appreciate you joining us tonight. I think you can bring a good Page 65 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 51 of 60 perspective for us. With all of the work that you have done to kind of encourage parking on site, how do you account for all the cars that are parking on Blue Heron? Hazen: So, I do agree with some of the state of they could potentially be some guest parking. We did have a situation that we had some corporate housing with the lineman school, which we are having -- they were budding up students inside there. So, we reached out to the linemen school and requested that they have no more than two vehicles in their apartment homes and if they had anymore that we ask that they carpool back and forth from the school. We also per lease agreement requested that there are no trailers being brought to the property, that we saw some of the linemen going back and forth. So, since, then, we haven't had the trailers from the lineman school and we have limited those parking. We also updated our lease agreement to only allow two vehicles per two bedrooms and, then, three for three bedrooms to help monitor that as people are moving into the community. But, again, going back to the street parking, I think it's just a little bit, as said earlier, was just convenience to some of those front side properties, plus guests that are coming to the community. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: Thank you, Summer. So, it sounds like you are doing what you can to try to enforce the residents' parking patterns with -- and with the lease agreements, but what do you -- what about the folks that are parking there that -- that don't have lease agreements that you don't have any control? I think I have more concerns about that, because, you know, I guess perhaps it is true that people are parking on the street, because it's closer to their unit than the spot that they can get in -- in the -- in the complex itself. So, maybe just looking at how -- you know, how the -- the covered, uncovered, all the parking spots, where they are being assigned in relationship to the unit the person lives in, but also, you know, that there is -- there is -- it doesn't make sense to me, just human behavior, that people would park on the street if they had a spot close to their unit or they even had an open spot in the complex somewhere. So, to say that there is a whole bunch of open spaces and people are parking on the street, it just doesn't -- I mean only, what, two of the buildings that are in the whole complex are on the Blue Heron Street -- facing the Blue Heron Street, all the rest of the units are not even next to Blue Heron, so why would people be parking there if it was -- do you understand what I'm saying? Hazen: I do. I absolutely do. And some of it could be like being comfortable parking in a carport space. I do find some people that feel like they have a larger vehicle don't always necessarily want to park under the covered. That's why offering a garage for those larger vehicles might help resolve some of that, plus limiting the amount of vehicles from the lineman school is going to help. We also in addition are, effective November 1 st, adding those parking permits. I think that will help us, you know, better regulate the vehicles that are parking throughout the community and also signing a contract with a Page 66 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 52 of 60 courtesy patrol, right, that are going to do security and parking enforcement that can help us push the residents into the community, but we are -- we are within the guidelines of what we are allowed to enforce as a property management. We can -- we can send the notices, we can do the audits, we can educate the residents at time of move in and renewal, but at the end of the day if they go to the street that's where we need the help of the --the city to either block off that one side to help eliminate those concerns with driving through that -- that way. Simison: Council, any additional questions? Okay. Thank you very much, Summer. Is there anybody else that would like to provide testimony on this item. Deputy Chief. Bongiorno: Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Council. Just wanted to give a little history, so we know where all this started. So, this started back -- I got a call one night at 3:00 o'clock in the morning or 1:00 o'clock in the morning, because one of our fire engines got stuck in the back of that apartment complex. They literally had to back all the way out of the entire complex because at the time there was no red curbing, they hadn't painted anything, nothing was marked as fire lanes and so people -- if it looked like a parking place or it looked like they could fit their car in there, they parked there and so we went and met with the, then, management company -- and this was four or five years ago and they -- I actually walked the entire complex and gave them a paper that showed all the fire lanes. So, that's when they went in and they painted all the curving red and once that happened, then, that's when people started parking out on Blue Heron, because they had their temp parking places taken away from them, so -- because they were like parking in front of garage, they were parking everywhere. So, now as far as Blue Heron itself goes, I believe Tamara said that it was 36 feet wide back of curb to back of curb, so that's 35 feet face of curb to face of curb. So, as far ACHD standards and the fire department standards, you can park on both sides of that road. There is nothing wrong with that. It's not until you get down to 32 feet that we -- that we limit to one side or the other. So, as it sits I have no concerns about parking on it personally, because it's -- it meets code, it meets what the standards are for parking for a 35, 36 foot wide roadway. Be happy -- one hundred percent happy to work with Alan and ACHD and Tamara to figure out -- and the property manager to figure out a parking plan for this -- for Blue Heron. I can see the concerns with parking between Richter and Meridian Road, because that does limit -- once you get up to the intersection your triangle is severely limited, so I can see working with ACHD to block that section off and make it no parking and, then, we can figure out the rest of it from there. But I don't -- I don't want to take away both sides of the street, because I still feel that even working with Tamara -- and she was awesome to give us those 21 extra spaces, I still think there has to be parking out of Blue Heron to allow for the -- the overflow parking, because of visitors, Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever. think it's still going to be needed even with what they are doing, so -- but, again, we can -- we can go one side or the other, it doesn't matter, we can leave both sides, we can just limit Richter. I'm happy to work with everybody to make that function whichever works best for everybody. Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Page 67 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 53 of 60 Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: Hey, Joe, got a question for you. So, what you are saying is you feel comfortable currently how it stands and you are able to drive a fire truck down one -- you know, one side of the road and having another vehicle drive down the other no problems -- with -- with -- with having -- with -- with cars parked on both sides of the road. Bongiorno: Yeah. Mr. Mayor, Councilman Bernt, yes, totally. We do it every day. Thirty -- thirty-five feet is a standard in this city. Everything new is in that 33 to 36 foot range. Bernt: Unless it's private, but I -- Bongiorno: Blue Heron is not private. Bernt: Right. Bongiorno: Right. Correct. Strader: Mr. Mayor, I have a question for Tamara. Simison: If we wanted to wait until we bring her up for final comments. Is there any further public testimony on this item? Okay. Then, Tamara, why don't we go ahead and bring you up for your final comments and you will know you will have questions. Thompson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and I thank Summer for -- for chiming in there, since most of the comments have to do with parking and operations and items that she's more intimately involved in. In the -- my conclusion I was definitely going to reiterate the thought that there is an -- someone that lives on site that is part of the management team and they are happy to share there that number to make sure that all of the adjacent property owners know who to contact and that kind of thing. Also with Blue Heron being a public road, they -- they don't have any jurisdiction on that street as far as to tell people -- you know, they have been encouraging everyone not to park there. They have a monthly newsletter that goes out and -- but they just don't really have any teeth in order to tell them not to park there. I think with -- with Summer's -- with what she mentioned, I think we have addressed everything that was -- was brought up, so I will stand for questions. Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Tamara. So, I wanted to understand the point that Summer made about the garages. So, it sounds like there is 54 of them and typical for a development, you know, it costs a little extra, right, for people to rent those garages. So, it sounded to me like there is 14, if I'm reading that right, that are unoccupied, so you kind of have an unutilized pool of parking. What was the proposal to try to utilize that parking to further alleviate the issue? Thompson: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Strader, they are going to reduce the fee across Page 68 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 04 of 60 all of the garages by 50 percent, so -- so, that they can get those full. Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Strader: Thanks. Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: I didn't want to step on Council Member Strader's toes if she had a follow up. First, Tamara, congrats on your award and recognition from Boise State. That's pretty remarkable. Bernt: Luke, you beat me to it. Cavener: Oh. Sorry. Sorry, Treg. I have a -- I guess kind of a real direct question and it is -- I really think that as we have received compelling testimony from the public about Heron Village contributing to directly to the parking problem, both along Blue Heron and it all sounds like a long Richter Lane, which is private. So, I like this project, I like what you are trying to accomplish, but I guess I need to get a good understanding from you as to what you or your builder is planning to do to address this parking solution -- situation. I guess I haven't heard that you recognize that there is a problem and that you want to work towards a solution. What I have heard a lot of is that you don't necessarily really think that this is a problem and I want to make sure that I'm not mishearing you and giving you the opportunity to respond. Thompson: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener. First, thank you for the -- for the congrats. That was super exciting for me. But, secondly, so the --the parking situation -- yeah, I think I haven't -- I didn't do the -- the audit. I was given the report. So, that's -- that's my extent of the knowledge of the parking and so I think talking to Summer about that is -- is more appropriate, because I'm just reading the report and not the -- you know, I didn't do the -- the study myself and I haven't gone out there, frankly, at 8:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m. to -- to look at that. Cavener: So -- Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: And, Tamara, I'm only pushing you on this, because -- because I know you well and you're a subject matter expert and so I'm being real frank. I don't find that answer very satisfactory. I think that you are an expert and you can look at this and you have read the testimony, because I know you are a pro, and so when I look at a layout design for this phase, I think it's going to only contribute more to the parking problem and if it's a situation that we disagree, then, that's okay, but I'm telling you right now that I think that you are -- you have a problem already. This project will make it worse and I just want to give you one more opportunity to at least commit to me what you are planning to do to address it and if it's that we don't think there is a problem, that's okay, we are just going Page 69 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 55 of 60 to have to agree to disagree on this one. Thompson: Okay. Let me grab my -- Mr. Mayor, Councilman Cavener. So, with the current phase one, from what was required to what exists or what was provided was only -- let's see. Actually, that has more, too. So, you are right, I mean as far as The Land Group goes, we do -- we do quite a few of these apartment complexes and we are definitely seeing that with the people are in more of a roommate situation. A lot of that has to do with the supply and demand. There isn't very much supply. We have -- you know, most of these are -- are fully occupied, not just here, but across the entire valley that housing is -- is needed and the less housing there is the more people are living in individual units. There is definitely -- if -- if 21 stalls -- looking at the site plan, we could add more parking if we were able to -- that open space in the northeast corner, would that be something that -- and, obviously, I would need to go to my client and ask them about this, but would that be something -- and I can share my screen again if you want. But, you know, there is -- there is a nice grassy open space there that -- Cavener: Mr. Mayor, if -- Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: -- Tamara wants to share the site plan or if Alan wants to pull it up again -- Thompson: Yeah. I do have it right here. Cavener: -- annotate anything if anyone is able to see it. But you look at where you are placing that big building right next to Blue Heron and so it very well may be a case that you have got proper parking, but, you know, again, I guess, Tamara, I think you are an expert, you do this stuff, you know that the -- the tenants are going to park on Blue Heron to access their apartments. So, again, I -- I'm sorry that I'm being a little more direct about this, but I guess I expect more from you when you bring us these types of projects, that you are thoughtful about this, because the stuff that you bring us normally is and I don't know if it's the case that you have advised your client and they are not wanting to change or you haven't had those conversations. Thompson: No. I think we have had those conversations, but -- I mean it's -- it's over parked by 21 stalls from city code and it does have quite a -- quite a few parking -- having the parking on the street is something we don't have a lot of places and -- and we have heard from the fire chief that having parking on the street is -- is really not -- not an issue. I think it is for the neighbors, but it's not -- not by code. But it's just such a hard thing to -- you know, because we meet city code. Is city code wrong and if it is what --what should that number be? Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman -- Page 70 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 56 of 60 Thompson: If it -- if it helps I'm getting a text from my -- from my client right now. They are -- that 24-plex to 16-plex and add more parking. We could also look at, you know, if this open space wants to -- we could -- we could make some of this maybe a little larger or something where we could continue this parking around in this area and add more parking there. Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor. Well, good, I'm glad to hear that, Tamara, because my question was going to be is -- one option would be would you consider taking that 24-plex and making it -- having two twelves, cutting that one in half and going to two twelves with the remainder of that in parking. I am interested in not having parking on the north side of East Blue Heron Lane to help mitigate some of the impacts that the neighbors on that side are having from the apartments. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a step in the right direction. But, then, take that away, there needs -- definitely needs to be additional parking and if there is any chance to do that, that it would have to be reducing the size of the building, so -- Thompson: Mr. Mayor -- and I think that was Hoaglun. I can't see you guys' faces anymore when I share my screen, but, Councilman Hoaglun, the -- so as far as the -- up here on the street -- the first site plan that we had our pre-app, which did not have this building on the street, but -- but staff wants -- you know, they are always trying to push buildings up to the street, so -- so we could not get the parking on the side of that. What's -- you know, might be that people park on the street in front of this one, because that being more convenient at that location. We are -- we have 15,000 -- actually small -- we have more open space with 16,260 square feet of excess open space that -- this is 7,000, so we would still be over the open space where we could look at rearranging some of this and adding some more parking in there, too. I don't know about two twelves, but they definitely said a 16 and a 20 -- I'm sorry -- a 16 and a 12. Perreault: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Perreault. Perreault: So, Tamara, are people -- I assume that it's the ground level patios and whatnot. I don't know the -- how these are designed, but is there a problem with putting like a short open fence around the -- on that north side of the street that -- that bumps up to Heron, so the people are -- are deterred from walking straight from the street to their building or would that not be permissible for some reason? It seems to me like we are -- it's -- we are -- it's just getting over complicated and not that -- I want to solve this issue on behalf of our residents, but ultimately as Council we are sitting here trying to help you do that, but it's not really what I feel like we should -- that I want to do. I don't want to solve this problem for you. I want you to solve it and bring it back to us. Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Page 71 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 57 of 60 Simison: Can we let the applicant reply to that? Bernt: Oh, yeah. Sorry. Thompson: Mr. Mayor, Council -- Council Woman Perreault, the -- I would have to look at -- we don't -- we don't do fences along right of ways very often, so I would have to look at what city code is on that. I don't know that off the top of my head. Maybe -- maybe Alan does, but I don't have that off the top of my head. So, what I'm hearing you say is -- is maybe some sort of a low fence or even a -- an open fence that -- that's along here where it would deter people from parking here, because, then, they would have to make their way down the sidewalk to enter at where the vehicular areas are; is that -- Perreault: Correct. Thompson: -- is that that? We could take a look at that. Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: This is my last question of the evening. I promise. And this question is to Captain Stokes. And it's the first time I have ever called you captain on the public record. Congratulations on your promotion. My question -- do you have any concerns with the -- Council Woman Strader mentioned earlier about -- she did some ride alongs and she mentioned that you guys had some issues with this. Just wanted to hear your thoughts. Stokes: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I don't know specifically with this complex and I didn't know about those ride alongs until now, but we have run into similar situations in other parts of the city. One that's coming to the top of my head is like Centrepoint north of Ustick. That -- those complexes that are behind kind of the Hobby Lobby and that curve around -- and I can see Joe nodding his head -- that curve around there on the north side of Hobby Lobby. That traffic that gets pushed out of those complexes can get pretty congested and our concern from the police department is, you know, a lot of cars really close together and, then, people running between those cars to get to the other side of the street and we can have accidents and those kinds of things and a lot of these complexes have a lot of kids that go out and play on the sidewalk and those kinds of things. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor, I think that we probably need some more time to -- to work on this or allow Tamara to go back to the drawing board and figure some things out. I think we talked -- it's pretty much focusing on the parking. So, what is that solution? Instead of trying to come up with that answer tonight, Tamara, would you be open to coming back here in a few weeks, say the 26th, and show us something that -- that would help alleviate the situation that we have out there and help the neighborhood? And we can see your Page 72 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 58 of 60 schedule now, by the way. Just -- Thompson: Oh. Okay. Good. Then you can see how much I have on there. Hoaglun: Man. Thompson: Right? Hoaglun: So, a couple of weeks -- Thompson: You guys -- you guys stop it. So, yeah. Mr. Mayor, Council, the 26th of October looks -- looks like that would work for my schedule and --yes. So, definitely open to that. Would love to get a little bit more direction though. As I said before, when we are overparked by city code, what -- what is that number? And we could -- we could go back and do an audit of some of the more recent ones that have been -- have been approved and see -- see where those ended up. Hoaglun: And, Mr. Mayor, before we get into that, I just want to make sure with staff -- Alan, 26th, are you going to be gone? Tiefenbach: I'm already here for you on the 26th. So, thank you for stacking them on the same hearing. Hoaglun: Okay. Well, you can thank our very good city clerk for that. If I might continue. I guess because this is an annexation -- I mean that gives us the leverage. We have got a problem. We have got a situation. Somehow we have to find some solution to it. So, I don't know what that is, other than we don't want to increase the problem that is there and if there is ways we can alleviate that, that is certainly the best of worlds that we could come to. So, anyway, yes, you may be overparked. I have -- according to city code have some doubts about our -- our, you know, efforts in that area at times with the way things are with -- with home prices, just the economy, people now are doing things and, you know, code often isn't -- isn't nimble. Laws are not nimble to address changing situations. So, somehow for this particular situation at this time what can we do to -- to come up with a solution and, hopefully, you have something in mind by giving -- you know, if we give you a couple weeks to do that, so -- Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Yeah. Tamara, I will just add -- I think we heard from -- I think the property manager and I think from you as well that we are in a current environment where you have got kind of roommate situations, so when parking standards were established we weren't in that environment. I think I heard from Summer, too, this is apparently also being used for some workforce housing for students that are doubling or tripling up and so you guys are aware as to what's going on over there and I think, again, we would trust Page 73 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 59 of 60 you to bring back some recommendations that's sympathetic to what the neighbors have had to say and the feedback that you have heard from Council. Strader: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Council Woman Strader. Strader: Oh, I would just add, you know, the parking is clearly the biggest issue. I did feel like the green space was really tucked away in a far corner and while you are taking a crack at it, if there is a formulation that centralizes that better with some parking, I would really like to see that. Not sure I -- it's a deal killer for me, I just noticed it really felt like it was so far removed in the upper corner. So, while you are looking at your options, if you could look at that. Simison: Okay. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Hoaglun. Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we continue the public hearing for Heron Village Expansion, H-2021-0027 to October 26th. Cavener: Second the motion. Simison: I have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing until October 26th. Is there any discussion on the motion? Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Cavener. Cavener: Real quick. Sorry. Just one more piece of commentary. Earlier when we were talking with the neighbors I indicated I was over in that neighborhood a couple of days ago. I wasn't over there because of this application, I was out there because it's campaign season. I just wanted to note for the record that I wasn't intentionally coming out to this area to find out any information that was before us tonight. Simison: Thank you for that. Any further comments on the motion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it and the item is continued. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. Thompson: Thank you. FUTURE MEETING TOPICS Page 74 Meridian City Council Item#2. October 12,2021 Page 60 of 60 Simison: Anything under future meeting topics? If not, do I have a motion to adjourn? Bernt: Mr. Mayor? Simison: Councilman Bernt. Bernt: I move that we adjourn the meeting. Cavener: Second. Simison: Motion and second to adjourn the meeting. All in favor signify by saying aye. We are adjourned. MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:18 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) 10 / 26 / 2021 MAYOR ROBERT E SIMISON DATE APPROVED ATTEST: CHRIS JOHNSON - CITY CLERK Page 75