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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005 09-13 Pre Meridian City Pre-Council Meetina September 13. 2005 The Meridian City Pre-Council meeting was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Tuesday, September 13,2005 by Council President Shaun Wardle. Members Present: Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle, Charlie Rountree. Members Absent: Christine Donnell, Tammy de Weerd Staff Present: Ted Baird, Bob S., Anna Canning, Bill Johnson, Doug Strong, Elroy Huff and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: Roll call. X Shaun Wardle X Charlie Rountree a 0 Christine Donnell X Keith Bird Mayor Tammy de Weerd Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we adopt the agenda as published. Rountree: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda as published. All in favor? Item 3. Presentation of Messina Meadows Subdivision Park: Brown Kent Brown: Just to kind of orient you with the mile section that this park is located in. We have got Victory Road on the north running along here. Eagle Road on our easterly side. Amity Road and Lake Hazel, not Lake Hazel, but Locust Grove. I have got to get my roads right. Do you want to point to the blue Mayor? Bird: When you come in late, you have got to sneak in. Brown: That is the Ridenbaugh Canal that the Mayor pointed at, which is a real deterrent in this mile section because you have very few places that you want crossings or we have crossing. There is a crossing located right here fairly close to the proposed park. You also have the beginning of the Eight Mile Creek that Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 2 of 19 comes off the Ridenbaugh Canal. From the east, you have the Ten Mile feeder that comes in and currently loops down and through and dumps back into the Ridenbaugh. We are proposing to pipe that Ten Mile feeder along the northerly boundary of this proposed park. There is a school site - elementary school site located here. To the north Montague ties in there. There is a residential collector that comes in, stops on the other side of the Eight Mile; you have the residential collector coming up and intersecting with another residential collector that runs along the south side of the proposed park. There is a residential collector that comes in to the school, just to the north of the park site also. Nampa - Meridian has a weird structure; Nampa - Meridian owns the park that I have highlighted in red. They don't want to provide any access through there. On your comprehensive plan you proposed micro-paths or a greenbelt along the Ten Mile. In Tuscany Lakes we provided a greenbelt in there for future operation by the Parks Department. We created one in Tuscany Village here along the Ten Mile. A little further up, the same developer did Glacier Springs just before it enters into Meridian Greens. Messina Meadows has that same pathway greenbelt along here and then we tie into Bowingham with a pathway. Apparently Nampa - Meridian owns this portion of the Ten Mile feeder or Ten Mile drain - I am getting my Ten Mile's mixed up as well as the streets - but, it's proposed that there be a pathway out to Locust Grove and then you could connect back into that there. There is also a micro-path connection here that can bring you back over into the park area. Within Messina Meadows we created a lake system and pathways that you could walk in a circular motion in this area on trails and paths that the developers developed with a combination of those trails and along the residential collectors you could come in here to where there is a clubhouse and pool. There is another clubhouse and pool on a pathway system here. I handed to the Clerk a copy of the comprehensive plan for Parks and Recreation. It talks about a definition. When we first started designing in this section, we met with the Parks Department, but when we did Tuscany Lakes they said they didn't want a park in that portion. When we did Messina Meadows to the south, they said that they were looking for a park. We asked them what size and basically where the location is. If you go through the definition of a neighborhood park - neighborhood parks are a combination of playground and design primarily for non-supervised, non-organized, recreational activities. So, it's not a place that the baseball team comes and has a baseball event or a soccer team, but maybe they go there and practice. They are generally smaller in size and serve the area approximately a half-mile in radius. My lovely round circle that I did here is the half mile radius around from point of the park and so it kind of makes sense where the Parks Department suggested the very center of the section is right here where I did this star, so we are not very far from that center location. Typically, these facilities found in neighborhood parks include children playgrounds, picnic areas, trails, open grass areas for passive uses - outdoor basketball court and multiple-use practice fields, soccer and youth baseball. The size of seven to fifteen acres with an optimum size being seven acres. There is 8.35 acres in the overall area, which includes the area that runs along the north that we are piping along the north. Now, if you look on the yellow Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 3 of 19 highlighted areas of the site selection, under most conditions neighborhood parks should be no smaller than seven acres were eight acres. The site in general should be central to the neighborhood intended to serve. When you read a little earlier in this under recommendations on how you are supposed to do this - when you see the comprehensive plan, it's highlighted in a location here, it says that it is for the mile section and can be located basically anywhere from that asterisk. If possible, walking bicycle distance should not exceed a half-mile for the area it serves. Access routes should be minimized to physical barriers, crossing and major roadways. We have residential collectors that come into the park, but stop at the park. We don't have any real collectors that are here in this area in and around the park, but we have numerous trails and paths with the road system that lead people to that. This quarter mile of area along the north provides a nice, if you will, greenbelt to get people to that park facility and bring them in from any of those different parcels. The site should be visible from adjoining streets and have no less than 200 feet of street frontage. We have street frontage along our whole southerly boundary and along the whole easterly side of the park. The frontage should be on a neighborhood collector street and should be located on a busy street incorporating buffers and barriers if necessary to reduce hazards from passing vehicles. We have around about that is located right here, where those two roads intersect to slow cars down at that area. It is along our residential collector bringing people into neighborhood, but it is at the end. Basically, I guess, this is the same discussion that I had with the Parks Department, kind of going through the comprehensive plan and why I guess in my opinion this is a poster child for what you would use or view for a neighborhood park. Is there any concerns or questions that I can answer for the Council? Wardle: Council, we brought this item for some discussion, but would we like to hear from the Department Head before we bring up any additional? Strong: Mr. President, Council and Mayor I think the one thing that you asked for the last time that we discussed this matter was also the cost to operate and this neighborhood park shouldn't cost any differently than any other park that we have once built. Over the last number of years with the Fiscal Department we have tracked operating costs at full build out for a park to be about $4,600 an acre that was calculated less than a year ago. So, that includes all amenities in the park, staffing, equipment and everything that it would cost to operate a park over a year's period of time. We anticipate those costs for this park to be consistent with what we are experiencing in other parks. I . I Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: Did you say $4,600 an acre? Is that a year? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 4 of 19 Strong: Per year, yes. That is staffing costs, equipment, fuel- Bird: Well, now wait a minute. After you once get the initial- well, what are you going to put in an 8.5-acre park out there? You have got to green up, you have got to put playground equipment and that kind of stuff? Strong: Basketball court and baseball backstop, probably. Bird: Okay, after all that is put in and the cost of that is all taken care of and we are going to pay $4,500 an acre per year? Strong: That is what we average across our entire park system. It's averaged out- Bird: I think, Doug and I have brought this up on a couple of other occasions - you need to get some quotes from some landscaping companies to take care of that stuff. I mean, that is $36,000 a year for that 8.5-acre park and that is if you don't have any problems, no broken lines or anything like that. That sounds like a lot of money. A lot to me anyway, per acre for just a green space that don't have - you know if you had a concession stand or large toilets or something like that I could understand that maybe repairs and maintenance could run that, but boy we are just talking about green space and a basketball court, which once it is up, other than replacing the nets at about $.95 a net, you know - Strong: Well, like I said this is a cost that is averaged over all of the parks, so some parks cost more than other parks to maintain I am sure and we took all the cost throughout the park system for maintenance and operation and averaged it out to about $45,000 to $46,000 an acre system wide. Bird: You mean, $4,500 an acre you mean? Strong: Yes, $4,500 an acre. Bird: If you meant $45,000 or $46,000 we are really going to have a chat. Strong: Yeah, amazing the cost. Bird: I don't think that is quite fair for the small parks and I think you need to break it out. Strong: The smaller parks should cost, if we were to track the costs just in the smaller parks, it should be less than that. Bird: It should be a lot less because basically all you are doing is mowing it and pulling some weeds once you get it set in. I still maintain that you can hire a landscaper that goes around instead of us having three or four pickups and six or Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 5 of 19 seven trailers and eight lawn mowers traveling around employees. That is my - that isn't on just this park, either. ourselves and 16 Strong: Other questions? Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I had a question on this particular one because it relates to the usability and the space - the long micro-pathway, it just seems to me that I am not sure that that is necessarily something that the City of Meridian would want to be responsible for, particularly when it actually provides an entryway into this particular subdivision. So, that was probably the issue that didn't set well with me and that there is a fair amount of space in that area, probably an acre or a little more but has a minimal use. Brown: That area at the very narrowest is 80 feet, but in most areas it's over 100 feet wide. It will have a path over the top of it that provides a trail that is required by Boise Project to maintain that and it'll be asphalted, so it would a 1 O-foot wide path and I guess as an entrance to the subdivision, I don't really view it as an entrance to the subdivision. It's a backyard to the neighbors behind that provides them access to come right out the back of their property right onto the park property. The entrance to the subdivision is over off Eagle Road right here that has water features and so forth and the other entrance is here. In the design of the subdivision, what I tried to do was cause everything and all of these roads to dump out so that anybody that is in these areas can go a short distance walking down the road and then come out onto the park. By having a micro-path here you can take this area here for someone that it is in here and have them come out or they can come out here along the top and enter into it. It also provides a means for these people in this area to be able to come from their subdivision if they want to be able to walk on a trail back into there. I guess at the narrowest it's 80-feet wide, so it's not an unsafe area, it's a wide open-spaced area. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Kent, where is your drainage for the subdivision? Brown: It's in the streets. As the P&Z kind of teased me at the last hearing I was at, we had that alternative drainage swell system, so in front of every one of the homes, you have what us old Idahoans call borrow ditches; that is landscaped and green grass. De Weerd: So, do you have detached sidewalks? Brown: Yes, ma'am. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 6 of 19 De Weerd: Okay. And the path that Charlie was just talking about that then is flat and it's not contoured? Brown: No, it is not. I mean, we are spending a lot of money. We have a 52- inch pipe that we have to put in there. It will probably be concrete. I don't think that they make the 52-inch in the (inaudible) that Boise Project likes. But, we are piping this Ten Mile feeder here through the site until it enters into the Ridenbaugh. I mean the only thing that would really even enhance it more is if we could get a pedestrian bridge across the Ridenbaugh at that location. There already is a pipe delivery there and a walkway. It really wouldn't take much to turn that into a pedestrian pathway, but then all of a sudden you have a shortcut of people walking and we have got ponds that are in the back area here that is landscaped with waterfalls and so forth that would be an additional amenity to get people over there. But, with the site constraints of the Ridenbaugh on the Eight Mile and the Ten Mile feeder, I think that this is still a good location. And yes, we are stuck with this greenbelt area in here, but it's not like it is you know what you would normally see in a backyard. I mean, all of these homes in Messina Hills, they have got 80 to 100 feet behind their houses that is going to be grass and lawn. Wardle: Council, just for clarification, we have seen this application have approved the subdivision preliminary plat as a condition of that subdivision and Ted correct me if I am wrong, the city has at it's option to essentially take over that park with the terms and conditions at the time of final plat. Am I correct, Mr. Baird? Baird: Mr. Council President and members of the Council the way that it stands now is with no further action from the Council, this particular plat of ground will not be a city park. If your opinion has changed and Council's desire is to make a motion to bring that in to give staff direction to bring it in as a city park, that would happen at the final plat stage, but for the developer's certainty and their staff's need for direction, we'd probably need the direction from you as soon as possible to change that course. If you do nothing, it will not be a city park. Wardle: Kent? Brown: As I understand we are not moving forward with our annexation because of this same issue? Is that correct, too? Baird: Mr. Council President and members of the Council, I think what we are hearing is that the development agreement has been delayed in anticipation of some - you know you are hearing this today and thought we would wait to see if there is any change in direction so that we don't have to do an amended development agreement, but as far as staff is concerned the approval has been made; they can move forward with the preliminary plat. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 7 of 19 Brown: We could bring in our final plat? Baird: Absolutely. Brown: We are about a week away with probably the biggest phase that's ever been done - 306 lots we are platting from Eagle Road all the way to our westerly property line, including all of the improvements for the park. As previously discussed my client wanted to green it up. He was willing to also put in any restroom and those improvements and those hard things that you wanted put in could be reimbursed with impact fee. Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: Ken, you said he wants to put that, but he would expect reimbursement at his cost for impact fees, right? Brown: For the restroom portion only. I mean- Bird: I was not here on the original deal and I don't know how far I can go, but I will make a statement on my part. I would just as soon see this stay with the neighborhood - be a neighborhood park and leave us completely out of it. I think it's sitting back in there and I don't think it really - it benefits their neighborhood, which that is what a neighborhood (inaudible) is for. That is my only comment. De Weerd: Mr. President. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: For Mr. Bird's benefit, if you could tell him what all is done as part of the development verses what additional at-cost you would be willing to do, if it were a city park. What would you be putting in it regardless? Brown: Regardless, we would be greening it up - that would be prepping it; putting in the sprinklers; I mean we want it as a usable park when we are done with this first phase. For the reimbursement part, my client said that if you guys wanted a restroom built to your standards and your specs, you know, any of those other - if it's basketball or picnic areas as called out in your comp plan, those kind of things, then those items would be reimbursed. De Weerd: Follow up. Wardle: Madame Mayor. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 8 of 19 De Weerd: So, the amenities in it - I mean, you would be putting in the trees and that sort of thing? Brown: I don't know if the trees have ever come up. We talked about the grass, but I can't remember trees and I guess I haven't specifically received my client that the trees were a part of greening it up, but we would definitely be working with Land Group to design the park the way that the city wanted it and so we would be hiring a consultant to do that. De Weerd: So, you would be putting in the path - the asphalt path and any of the landscaping surrounding that? Brown: Right. De Weerd: On your plan, didn't you have a landscape --? I thought you had trees in there. Brown: The landscape plan did show some trees. They were basically around the perimeter. We also showed a pathway, but those were just a preliminary sketch. Obviously, we were looking to meet immediately after our preliminary hearing. We had meetings scheduled to meet with Land Group and start designing what we thought would be a slam dunk city park and we've held them off until we hear further. I mean, obviously, if it's going to be as Mr. Bird suggested a homeowner's park, you know we might put the pool there. We have a pool designed in this location, maybe we could put the pool there. Maybe we still put the basketball standards. We wouldn't have made it seven acres. We would have maybe broken it up into as your comprehensive plan calls out for parks to mini-parks; seven acres is pretty tough for a homeowner's association. This is 8.36. A portion of it, the Bureau of Rec is going to own and be a license agreement you would get ownership of 6.5 homeowner's association and keep a half an acre and the Bureau of Rec would own 1.5 acres, with a license agreement. De Weerd: And maintain their portion? Brown: We would have a license agreement to take care of that. I mean, if the issue is that this upper portion up here that the city didn't want to take care of then, obviously, we could mow that and take care of that as part of the homeowner's association. We would enter into that license agreement, but then give you 6.5 down here that is just a rectangular piece. (Inaudible---), but they would have the right to use 8.36 with the area because it is all going to flat and green. Bird: What is that like - excuse me, Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 9 of 19 Bird: What is the license agreement be (inaudible) for? Brown: To have grass over the top of the pipe. They own a GO-foot right-of-way. BaR and they won't give it up. It was after our preliminary plat hearing that we found out that they owned it. Bird: Follow up. In my dealings with boys like that, I just as soon not having any agreement with them. They can - Brown: But, you make me have an agreement with them. Bird: You can have an agreement with them. Brown: No, usually you make me have an agreement with them. Bird: On that park, Kent, and what I am saying is that I think it's great to have a park there. But, we were out at Baldwins and Summerfield and stuff and I don't know what the acreage is and I don't think it's eight acres, but evidently we are not getting eight acres either. What you are saying is that half-acre goes to - Brown: You have a right to (inaudible)- Bird: We really don't. Not when BOR is involved. You might take it out. You are going to do what they tell you to do on it. Let me tell you, that is the truth. So, actually and I know what they are, but I think that would be a beautiful neighborhood park. Brown: If you read - I did highlight it in there in red under the definition - oh no, it is under general guidelines. The city will look favorably upon developers that provide public neighborhood parks. This has been kind of an interesting experience. It also has been interesting experience. It also has been interesting with my clients as we talk with other developers. I think the feedback and Christine made this comment at our preliminary plat hearing is that you don't want neighborhood parks; you don't want seven acre parks; you don't want eight acre parks; you want larger facilities located out on major roads. I guess that is the feedback that I am hearing from the Council. Wardle: Madame Mayor, just one moment. Anna did you have something? Canning: Mr. President, Madame Mayor, members of the Council I am just a little concerned that the testimony that we have heard tonight is a little bit different than what was on the preliminary plat. So, depending on what the action is tonight, we may need to resolve one issue in particular. I distinctly recall that they proposed an open irrigation feature that the kids could wade in. So, we just need to address some of those inconsistencies. I assume that it's now Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 10 of 19 because of the Bureau of Reclamation finding out that they had ownership in that, but there seems to just be discrepancies. So, if the Council decides to adopt this, we probably need to address that fact. Brown: I would like to. As the feedback that we got and the concern about this area being usable, it made more sense to us and to alleviate what Mr. Bird's concerns were about what the Bureau would tell us to do with that open area. Yes, my client really did want to have an open ditch, just like that are in many of the parks that we have done in Boise, but he said that it is just going to be too difficult for us to deal with BOR on this we will just put in a pipe and basically, yes, they make you get a license agreement, but the Highway District makes you get a license agreement for everything that we do in our storm drainage facilities, too and to landscape those and basically that is what the license agreement is to come back and to put grass over the top of it. Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I just wanted to share with you that neighborhood parks have been readily accepted. We have Champion Park; we have Autumn Faire or Four Season's park; you have Kiwanis Park and Chateau Park and Baldwin Park that is coming up, so it's not that this Council has been opposed to neighborhood parks. It has had an interest in what their location is, the amenities and the immediate and perceived benefit to the community and that is probably more directly what is being talked about now. Rountree: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I think it's wrong to characterize that the Council isn't looking for neighborhood parks. Though I have been perceived as negative on this park because of the questions I asked and I am still getting different answers every time we hear about it. Initially, we were going to have an open drainage through this facility. In my mind, that is a liability and maintenance and a problem for the city and instead of $4,600 an acre, I could see that it would be costing us significantly more to maintain that aquatic feature to very little value to the citizens of the City of Meridian. That was probably my single biggest issue about this park initially. Seeing that is piped helps and I am starting to say okay, I am warming up to this idea because there actually is going to be some usable space and we minimize the difficulty. I see some issues with and we are always going to have issues with neighborhood parks and adjacent neighbors and having dealt with some parks and neighborhoods that the parks were there before the neighborhoods and the city didn't listen to what the impacts were going to be and by golly all of them came to pass. But, we need to think about some of those things in advance in this particular concept that (inaudible) feature to the north of the project doesn't necessarily benefit this subdivision, but certainly benefits it's Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 11 of 19 adjacent subdivision and part of the entire development complex. The on-street parking benefits the park and that is a good thing, but it really upsets the neighbors when somebody else is parking on that street. I tell you it does and you know that as well. So, I am looking at it from we as a city going into this thing. We have got some issues, if in fact we got greedy, that it is going to become a city park that have got to be dealt with because the neighborhood is going to have some expectations. If they own it, they can expect all they want, but it is coming out of their pocketbook. If the city is going to own and operate it, the expectations are that you are going to have parking, you are going to have rest areas, you are going to have this, that and the other thing, but whatever the realtors promise and God only knows what this is going to be and we are the last to find out what the promises are when we get into these things, that is where I am coming from Kent. I am not opposed to it. I think it's a great effort. To me, it's something though before you set the hook that we know what the bait it is. Brown: Right. Rountree: Okay. That is where I am coming from. So, there are some issues that have been brought up tonight and some things that you pointed out that tell me we need to continue to talk about this and not take it off the drawing board, but there are some things that just flat have to be in writing, not that I don't trust you but I know how this stuff goes. I have been burned one time. Only once. Not a second time. So, some of these issues, I think, the license agreement; what does BOR going to expect? BOR is not the issue. They have operating agreements with Nampa - Meridian. That's going to be an issue unless they have changed spots. You know that. Those kinds of things, I think, we need to sit down and work out. I am not going to say tonight that I want it, but I am not going to say tonight that I am opposed to it. I think we need to sit down and we need to work out the issues. There is some question as to what green-up means. Well, in my mind green-up is the landscape, which is the park, the design, the trees, the grass, the irrigation system. If in fact the city is going to take it over so we don't get into situations like we got other parks that we have agreed to that now we are having to go in and do all the underground plumbing in order to even make the water systems work. I don't want to get into that deal. That is going to be part of the arrangement that it is going to be plumbed, sewer so that we can provide for restrooms if we take it on - so we have got a big enough water service to do the irrigation with. All of those kinds of things that we are running into in some of these other good deals that the city has got that really are not turning out to be that great of a deal. So, that is where I am coming from. I hope you - Brown: And I can convey that. I mean I think it was the last Park's meeting when I made the same presentation and went out in the hall and a developer that I am not going to mention his name, but he says you know you are doing, what? What are you doing? You know, I am trying to get him to accept this donation that we are trying to make and he says well that makes me kind of rethink, you Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 12 of 19 know, how I design my stuff. Now, this particular developer has done it for Boise and I think he has encouraged my client in the past to come along this way and I think that Bear Creek for Greg Johnson has opened up his eyes and I think the testimony in the preliminary plat hearing he brought that forward is that he has found that the parks and doing the parks with the city have worked out. I mean, he screamed with every dollar that went forward, but- De Weerd: He was here every other week. Brown: But, he has grown from that experience and he sees that it is a benefit to have a city park. I think that is one of the reasons why I was able because he sat in this meeting and heard the concern about that area with the ditch and that I just had the ability to convince him that we don't want that open. Even though, you know, for a while when we first moved to Meridian, we lived next to a drain ditch and that was the more fun thing that we had was floating little wood boats that we would make down the ditch. Well, Boise Project views that totally differently and I told him, I said they are going to want to be mucking it and cleaning it and doing all of these other things; if we just put in a pipe and it is a costly thing for him to do, but the light clicked and he goes okay if I pipe the whole thing then there really isn't any issue. Rountree: Just a sidebar to that. Can they get a (inaudible) full permit to pipe it? Brown: Yes, we are in the process. Rountree: Cause that would probably be even tougher. Brown: Actually, they are easier than dealing with the changing guard at Boise Project. But, I have been trying to convince and help Boise Project also understand license agreements and how this has really been a benefit to Nampa - Meridian; that they can get lots of different things that they really want because they complain about being taken advantage of 100 years ago by someone and anyway with these license agreements you have a plan. That is the plan that is being done and that is what Nampa - Meridian does with us. They know what the landscaping is that is going into these huge facilities, but they really don't need to maintain their facilities. Canning: Mr. President. Wardle: Ms. Canning. Canning: As a sidebar Boise Project has contacted me and we are meeting with them next week to discuss the benefits of license agreements and easements and multi-use pathways. Wardle: Madame Mayor. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 13 of 19 De Weerd: Just to further elaborate I think from what Charlie was saying. I agree with all of his points and working out further details and maybe in particular because I know the comments you made, Bear Creek, all of those details were not worked through and it seemed like every other week, you know, another issue was being brought up. Who pays for what? Who does this? And so Charlie suggesting that more information and more detail needs to come forth in this is right on. The agreement, the parking - when I see trees on a plat and you know that's what I think is going to be done and then we do whatever rest and trees were a big thing with Bear Creek. I guess in your suggestion you could take out the northern part. Charlie had mentioned the benefit to the subdivision to the north of that. I guess it could be seen as an amenity if you have that bridge, if you had a connecting point to the other subdivision, unless I am missing something. Is there any connection with that green space to the other green? Brown: There is a connection from this point in Bellingham. This is the dividing line between the two projects. We have a one street connection here to the north. We have a greenbelt that would allow them to come back in and into the development, but this connection here provides them with a means of getting to the park for those Bellingham neighbors. I think that the neighborhood park system has a planner for Boise City and Boise City said neighborhood parks are seven acres. You have four or five acre parcels up here. There is no way that they can provide any green space in those developments. Yes, these developers have put many large parcels together, but there is a three-acre piece here. I think there is a seven or eight-acre piece here. This is fourteen. This is a twenty; this another twenty. The smaller pieces have the inability to provide those people with the open space. So, the idea and the plan in my opinion works. I think that having it centrally located, obviously, what with on your left the Morganer property is 72 acres, you know a park down here in this area and you have the Ridenbaugh Canal along the one side, but you really have limited access to provide the residents of Meridian with that. You have the Helen Peck property down here and another 40 acres. If you take a half-mile circle with providing access and it's pretty easy because you don't have any ditches or so forth to provide that area. In the next mile they have another park symbol on that property there. This particular location, pretty much provides pretty good access with the limitation of the canals and ditches that are in there. Wardle: Council, we are fast approaching the end of our agenda. I would like to thank Kent for his presentation. I believe we have got some direction. Just from my discussion, the presentation hasn't necessarily tipped the scales, in my opinion the value of this to the citizens of the Meridian verses the cost and some of the other issues. So, we have got apparently a request for more information and we will direct staff to provide some of that. Is there any other specific direction from Council? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 14 of 19 Rountree: Mr. President, I would just suggest that we don't hold up the process that they are going through with this. I think that at any point and time in the process we can reach an agreement one way or another. If we can address some of the issues that have been brought up and I believe that that can happen, then we will have to have that scheduled I assume at a regular Council meeting. I don't know if it is an additional hearing or just a decision at some point; maybe the decision on the final plat and add that to the development agreement, if in fact that is the case. Wardle: Thank you. With that we will move to Item No.4 on our agenda. Item 4. Discussion on Meridian Settler's Villaae Sauare: John Bracken: My name is John Bracken. I am with the Land Group. What I will start with is kind of an overview and orient you where we are at and kind of how I have come here tonight. (Tape turned over) Bracken: -- kind of the master plan of Meridian Settlers Park. We are at the intersection of Ustick Road and Meridian Road right here. Currently, there is an existing parking lot, field area and playground area with restrooms. This playground is not completely finished. A portion of it is installed. There is also plans to - the construction documents have been completed for the Meridian Youth Baseball complex area over here, which also includes a parking lot on the south side and also currently, there is approval going to be done along Ustick Road along the right-of-way. What I am presenting tonight is this portion right around the existing water tower. It's kind of split up into these two areas and in the process we went through we met with an advisory committee that was put together by Doug Strong and just talked about what the possibilities were and kind of the vision for these areas and what the uses might be and what the activities might include and who exactly the users might be. Through that process we talked about agricultural history of Meridian, the Heritage, community value, the need for a plaza, hard surface, open space and also the need for a multi-use structure, which would facilitate uses such as Dairy Days, the Firemen's Salmon Barbeque, chili feed and other community gatherings. Some of the activities that were talked about were having a tennis court complex, horseshoe courts, benches, tables, possibly checkers, some kind of pedestrian entry to the park and also a maintenance structure for the Parks and Recreation Department. Next slide please. After the advisory committee, we kind of went back and took all this information and came up with three different concept drawings. This is the first concept and you will notice that all three of these concepts are somewhat similar; trying to take into account all the roles, activities and users that were talked about. Like I talked about before, we had horseshoe pits, tennis courts, plaza area, multi-use building and a maintenance structure. Also a main entry at the intersection to kind of highlight entrance to the park and Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13. 2005 Page 15 of 19 create a main entrance to the park and also as you drive by to see this is the park and it might have some kind of overhead entry gate or similar and the multi- use building could possibly have a barn type architectural theme. Next slide please. This is a second concept. This one we also presented tennis courts. Actually have eight tennis courts verses six on the previous concept. One of the ideas, also, was to provide some kind of seeding that blend it to the landscape and provide a nice amenity and also provide seeding around the tennis courts and give more of a park like feel. There is a smaller area for horseshoe pits and then the pedestrian connection over to two different plaza areas. This particular concept has two different plaza areas, which would allow for possibly two different venues at the same time. The gazebo for outside plays or bands or that sort of thing and also multi-use structure along this side close to the road. Multi- use structure would also provide some separation between the road and whatever is going on in the plaza area. We also - something I forgot to mention before the advisory committee was to talk about a historical center or someplace to - well, what we gathered there was a lot of historical items that have been gathered and collected over the years, but there is no place for these items. A lot of them are in people's basements and that sort of thing and so another idea was to actually provide a building for a lot of these items and a place where people could come and view them and see the history of the area. Next slide please. This concept also is fairly similar. Again, we have the tennis courts; pedestrian connection to the rest of the park and then coming over around the water tower we have another multi-use structure and then we kind of played around with having the maintenance building connected to the multi-use structure so you would have - it will all be one building and have some kind of wall separating the two instead of having us an actual separate building for the maintenance building. Here again we tried to kind of split up two different plaza areas. One that is a little more open and this one with some landscaping intermingled. You know, just trying to think of ways to allow for all these different kinds of events and maybe vendors and that sort of thing. The other talk that was brought up about the multi-use structure was having open sides to the building so it would be a more open-air-type building somewhat similar to a barn in some respects. At the first Parks and Recreation Commission meeting, we kind of went over these three different concepts and took the comment to the Parks and Rec Commission and then we went back and made some revisions and came up with a final plan - next slide please - and came up with this plan, which is kind of a mish-mash of a combination of the three original concepts. It was determined that some areas of much importance were to have eight tennis courts; also to provide a minimum of 16 horseshoe pits. The large number for those items would allow for both local and regional events to attract a lot of people to the park. Also we have a picnic structure here and then the pedestrian connection over to the plaza area. The split plaza seemed to be the item of choice and also having the buildings close to Meridian Road to provide separation between the plaza and the road and also to be visible along the road as people are driving by. You have a main entry here. We talked about it before. It kind of aligns up with a fountain in the center of a plaza and then also a gazebo with possibly an Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 16 of 19 amphitheater area. There is a large existing oak tree that also was important to Keith to protect and a large linden tree in this location. We kind of played around with the building orientation and location on this particular concept, we have kind of a separate history center here with an open yard for larger items, such as tractors or other farm implements that might be of historical interest. The maintenance building is right in this location kind of tucked in and would be buffered by landscaping all the way around and it has easy access off the parking lot. At this meeting, we again took comments to the Parks and Rec Commission and came up with the presentation I have for tonight. Next slide please. Which is just kind of a fine-tuning of that last concept. It was also determined that building size, however that works out should have approximately 20,000 square feet to be able to accommodate all the uses that were talked about. Plaza area is still pretty similar; gazebo, main entry way; gate entry; overhead structure; maybe a clock tower and it showing off the entry into the larger part. Maintenance building along with the pedestrian connection over to the tennis court area. This is also connected up to the future parking lot and then over to the existing Adventure Island Playground area and there is a picnic shelter re-oriented so it would be open to the horseshoe courts. We also added one of those kind of seating berm areas similar to what we are proposing along the sides of the tennis courts to allow for viewing of large horseshoe competitions. Are there any questions? Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Where is the nearest restrooms? Bracken: There is an existing restroom facility in this location right here and it is assumed that there would be some kind of - Rountree: -- facilities in there? Bracken: Yes. Wardle: Before I take additional comments from the Council, we are running close to the end of our agenda. One of my suggestions is to put this out for some community input. Certainly, we have some cost questions. One of my comments about the specific plan, having attended a number of community events that I would suggest that if we are going to have a multi-use building where we can house events such as the Salmon Feed, the Chili Cook-Off, one of the things that I would suggest is to have a pathway, which is usable where people can wait in line; trees that provide some shade; green space where children may play while they are waiting in line with their parents directly from the parking lot. Just a personal opinion. Council any direction or additional comments? De Weerd: Mr. President. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 17 of 19 Wardle: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess if you want to get additional public comment, it's important to know what each of these components cost. It's very easy to design something with all the bells and whistles, but it also makes a difference to know the price tag of each of those. Wardle: I would suggest that if we through staff or a consultant find some of those ticket items and then have those addressed. I would personally like to know what each of the areas costs. For example, tennis courts verses amphitheatres verses open area. De Weerd: And the Wimbledon type of grass. Strong: Mr. President, Madame Mayor and Council just as a comment of where we were with this particular project. We had allocated some funding in this fiscal year to come up with a concept plan for this, the undeveloped portion of the park and that is what we contracted the Land Group to do and that's what we are trying to finalize here. The reason that we pulled a particular advisory group together that we did was to look at what would work for the community, but also as kind of a seed for future partnerships. The tennis courts, we had representatives from Idaho Tennis Association there. We have a representative from a local horseshoe clubs that are looking at participating involvement of the courts. So, I think you are right we do need to come up with a cost for all of those things and actually the Chamber is interested in the community building as well and working with us to get local businesses and community groups to participate in the development of the building. Just as a clarification these would be very simple buildings like concrete floors, at least the way that we have discussed them in this concept where you could open up sides of the building for summer time use and then close it up in the winter time, so it would be a step above the barns that we use up at the dairy barn now for chili feed and that, but not a fancy building; something that would be useful for a variety of community events. We can certainly get some cost projections for these different features, but what we are interested in accomplishing with this was the concept of would this suit the community to have kind of a community-gathering place or community plaza in this remaining portion of the park? And also to fulfill some of the other sports interests that the community has currently that aren't being addressed. Wardle: Thank you, Doug and certainly to the committee for bringing this forward. I think it's an excellent start and thank you for bringing it to the attention of the Council. Council, any additional questions? With that -- Madame Mayor? De Weerd: I guess, I would like to - I think they are seeking direction. If additional information is needed on cost elements, that sort of thing. They are Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 18 of 19 trying to finalize the design. If Council could give them some idea of what additional information might be needed and what you would like to see the next step as. Wardle: Again, my personal opinion is certainly I would like to see some cost figures and you can bring those back in an email or some other opportunity. Council is there additional information that we need addressed? Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: I agree with every thing you said about getting some costs and stuff so we have some kind of an idea and I think this young man can probably come up with some pretty good costs. Wardle: In addition to that, some potential phasing of the site. Bird: I think the Bird family would cover light in one of those tennis courts. De Weerd: Just one? Bird: Well, we will try four later. Wardle: You mentioned some partnerships and to kind of finalize those sorts of things. Thank you. Council, I would suggest that we move Item No.5 to the end of our regularly scheduled City Council meeting. I believe I would need a motion to do that. Rountree: So moved. Bird: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to move Item No.5 to the end of our regularly scheduled meeting. All in favor? THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Wardle: This brings us to the end of our agenda. I would entertain a motion to adjourn. Rountree: So moved. Bird: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn. All in favor? Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 13, 2005 Page 19 of 19 THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Item 5. Discussion of Appointments of Dale Newberry, Chris Kline, Cheryl Brown to the Economic Development Corporation: MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:08 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ~. III I 1{)7 DATE APPROVED