HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005 08-30 Joint Planning & Zoning
Meridian City Council Special Meetina/Joint Workshop
Auaust 30.2005
The Meridian City Council Special Meeting/Joint Workshop with the Planning and
Zoning Commission was called to order at 6:30 P.M. on Tuesday, August 30,
2005 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle, Charlie
Rountree and Christine Donnell.
Staff Present: Brad Watson, Len Grady, John Shawcroft, Bruce Freckleton,
Craig Hood, Anna Canning, Clint Dolsby, Steve Siddoway and Will Berg.
Commissioners Present:
Borup.
David Zaremba, Wendy Newton-Huckabay, Keith
Item 1.
Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X Shaun Wardle
X Charlie Rountree
X
X Christine Donnell
X Keith Bird
Mayor Tammy de Weerd
Berg: And then we have two members of the Planning and Zoning Commission:
Dave Zaremba, Wendy Newton-Huckabay and I don't believe anybody else is
here.
De Weerd: Commissioner Borup had to leave. He may join us later then.
Rountree: No, he is gone.
Item 2.
Adoption of the Agenda:
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve the agenda as published.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor, say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Item 3.
Introductions:
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August30,2005
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De Weerd: I don't know what Item 3 is. Introductions. Hi I am Tammy.
Donnell: We already did that.
Bird: We got that ahead of the agenda.
Item 4.
Presentation by the Public Works Department of the
Wastewater Treatment and Collection System:
De Weerd: At this time I would like to turn the meeting over to our Public Works
Director, Brad Watson.
Watson: Thank you Madame Mayor, Council members and Commissioners. It's
good to actually have a little bit of the floor for a while on this. We are usually
talking about land use issues or whatever else it is that we talk about such as
ordinances and that sort of thing and we usually only bring something up on the
wastewater side if there is a problem. Well, there are some issues to discuss
tonight, but we are also going to just give you a general update on the status of
not only the Waste Water Treatment Plant, but the collection system as a whole
and our planning efforts. Specifically the goals that I would hope that we could
strive toward tonight are to provide a brief department overview, particularly to
those of you who aren't real familiar with the operations that go on out there. We
don't normally get an opportunity to or I don't anyway get an opportunity to speak
to the Commission on all the activities that are going on. We also will provide
you status update on some of the current projects that have been funded and are
either in design or under construction. Thirdly, I would like to let you know about
some of the development pressures and issues that we are seeing. People that
are walking into the door asking us when we are going to be there, this is I think
probably almost a daily routine for staff anymore. Finally, we are going to ask
that we spend a little bit of time on some areas where I think the Public Works
Department needs some direction. I listed the Black Cat Trunk area and this all
encompassed scene, euphemistic, south area and we will get to that. Before I go
any further I should introduce Public Works staff that is here tonight. We have
Len Grady, our City Engineer; John Shawcroft, our Waste Water Superintendent;
we have Clint Dolsby and John Mills, who are our staff engineers and Bruce
Freckleton sitting in the back row for some reason who is our Development
Services Manager. Collectively, this group deals with wastewater; sewer issues
daily if not hourly - questions that come up from developers, engineers, builders,
etc.
De Weerd: Brad, I guess I would like to thank your staff. I know with the growth
pressures and everything that is going on in the city sometimes it seems a little
bit overwhelming and you guys do a stellar job. We really appreciate it. We take
great pride in our staff in the job that you do and we are very confident in that.
And it's nice to be able to say that. So, thank you.
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August 30, 2005
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Watson: Thank you, Mayor. That kind of jogged my memory at the earlier
presentation when you were looking at Stacy's budget presentations and some of
the comments that Keith and Charlie were - I am sorry, Councilmember Bird and
Councilmember Rountree were making about several years ago and the size of
the budgets - it is a little staggering to look at what we are doing. I couldn't
explain it in half an hour if I needed to, but each of these people is responsible for
millions of dollars in one way or another and they do a good job.
De Weerd: They do save us money too and we also appreciate that, too.
Watson: So, back to slides to kind of let you know what the organization of the
Public Works Department is - normally people call the building on Watertower
the Public Works Department, which is true it is part of the Public Works, but we
also encompass what we call operations, which includes both the Water Division
and the Waste Water Division located on Ten Mile Road. A brief overview of the
Waste Water Division - there are 28 employees, they are operating 24/7. Max
monthly flow and this is from 2004 is 4.9 million gallons per day, (inaudible)
capacity is rated at 5.5 through almost all of the components out there. There
are a few, but we can get by those. Peak hourly flow that we have experienced
lately is 9 million gallons per day with a peak hour capacity of 16 mgd. One thing
to point out is that max monthly flow is always in August and September and we
haven't seen this year's max month flow. There is another slide that I will get into
that a little more deeply. Collection system - it's hidden, people see it, hopefully
they never smell it, but it's down there and we think there is about 325 miles of it.
That's what we got through our GIS system, anyway, yesterday. Fifteen lift
stations pumping anywhere from 80 to 900 gallons per minute. John's crew is
actively supervising cleaning of the system each year. All those lines are
(inaudible) inspected every eight years on a rotating basis. The astounding part
of this is that through both city projects and developer driven projects we are
adding anywhere from 30 to 50 miles per year.
(Inaudible discussion from audience)
De Weerd: Ma'am, I am sorry this isn't a public hearing, but if you could clarify
that.
Watson: Sure, Madame Mayor. The only activities that the city does is on the
city owned collection system. There are components of that system that run
through annexed property to property that is annexed to the city, so it's all within
the city's area of impact.
Bird: Madame Mayor. Brad before we go - that last one and you don't have to
go back to it - showed - is 36 inch our largest pipe that we use in the sewer
system?
Watson: Madame Mayor, Councilmember Bird it is right now. Am I wrong?
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August 30, 2005
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(Inaudible speaker and discussion)
Watson: Excuse me; we put in a 42-inch -
Bird: Down Black Cat?
Watson: No, that's 36 inch, but the main trunk that comes into the south of the
plant was just recently replaced from 27 to 42 inch. It's not a real major section,
but it's there.
Bird: Thank you very much, Brad.
Watson: Okay. A little background on the Waste Water Treatment facility. It
was brought on line in approximately 1979 for $3 million as a 2.8 million gallon
per day plant. Periodic expansions occurred from 1996 to 2004 increasing both
the level of treatment provided and the capacity to it's present 5.5. The cost of
those capital projects was nearly $14 million. Based on construction cost index,
the current replacement value of that facility is $26 million. Fourth bullet point
probably doesn't mean anything to most people. It's an activated sludge process
with (inaudible) filters, UV infection, we don't chlorinate anymore - with
discharges to Five Mile Creek and occasional discharges to Boise River if
conditions in Five Mile Creek warrant that. This is the slide that I referred to
earlier, where we are talking about capacity at the treatment facility. You'll see
that we brought some additional facilities on line in 2000 that provided us a pretty
decent buffer for expansion. The growth over the last three years is quickly
eating that capacity up. The thing to note on the 2005 bar is that is our July peak
flow of, I think, 4.7 or 4.8 million gallons. We are projecting that it will probably
be more in the neighborhood of 5.2 to 5.3 million gallons per day average during
August and September, which essentially is giving us $200,000 excess capacity,
which in this business isn't a great comfort level. Thus the need for this monster.
This is the schematic of Phase 1 expansion out at the plant. There was some
money budgeted this previous year and we ask for another enhancement this
year to take in the whole project. It's, I think, $18 to $20 million. It will be
constructed in two phases. Those phases will be somewhat simultaneous. The
first one bids in about three weeks and it will involve all the liquid stream in the
plant. The second phase will bid probably next May and will involve all the solids
handling.
Donnell: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Yes, Ms. Donnell.
Donnell: Brad, can you go back to that slide? I mean my eyes just aren't what
they used to be. Can you tell me what the legend is in terms of the colors? So,
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August 30, 2005
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the purple is new Waste Water Treatment? Green is existing. What is - okay, I
am trying to adjust here.
Watson: I am sorry, I don't have a full size copy in front of me.
Donnell: Neither do I. I mean, this one is even smaller.
Watson: Yeah. Trying to conserve paper. I am sorry. The blue are facilities to
be added as part of this project that will be bid in the next three weeks. This is
kind of the liquid stream - primary clarifier, two more (inaudible) basins and
another secondary clarifier along with some pumping facilities in here. The green
is existing improvements that we have made over the years. This - I am not a
color person - mustard yellow, maybe, I don't know. Those are existing solids
handling facilities. The burnt orange is future - not future, well it is future, but
part of this project and it will be solids handling.
Donnell: Follow up Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: That is all in one spot?
Watson: Yes.
Donnell: Is this the Ten Mile location?
Watson: Councilmember Donnell, yes this is on the Ten Mile location. The
green is really part of the original plant, well, it includes some of the expansions,
but this is on the 40-acre site.
Donnell: Okay, gotcha.
Watson: I do have another slide that comes along a little later that shows the
facility in relation to what the city owns and that may help. This slide just
reiterates or lists out what we will be including in this next bid. Okay. The Phase
1 (b) that we will bid next May - about a $7 million construction project, includes
anaerobic digestion, bio-solids dryer and 18 month construction. We are
aggressively trying to get this project done and pushing our consulting engineer
very hard. But, at the current growth rate we are actually having to step back
and say okay this is all well and good, but we have got to look at what's going to
happen after that. At the current growth rate, this almost $20 million expansion
will be tapped out in 2009 at the rates that have been experienced over the last
18 months. So, we need to begin planning soon. We haven't even completed
construction and we have to plan the next plan, it is just a weird environment
right now. We met this morning - with some of the staff and what we would like
to do is issue an RFP for facility planning in October. As I noted in parenthesis
there, I didn't think we needed this soon, but we just kind of have to come to the
realization that we need to plan for the next plant in Fiscal Year '06. I don't have
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August30,2005
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a figure for you right now, but we are going to go into development of the RFP
over the next four weeks and get that published and come back to you for a
budget amendment -- when and if we successfully negotiate a contract with a
consultant Okay. Just a little update on the noise and odor study that Corallo
Engineers completed in 2004. As you may recall it identified anywhere from 2.8
to 5.3 million dollars in potential odor control costs. The Phase 1 project that is
being bid out and the solids portion that is being designed does incorporate the
infrastructure to be able to add those facilities. In other words, they have - it'll
include conduit and electrical service or the capability for electrical service space.
We do have one structure out there that is not - well these guys can correct me if
I am wrong - it's not part of the Phase 1 expansion, but it's where all these lift
stations are going to discharge and we are - we will be installing odor control on
that And they recently completed a stand-by power building out there that has
very extensive noise control on it. There are two generators? Two right now for
space for two more that will carry the whole plant and there are significant noise
control on those two. This is the photo, Councilmember Donnell that I was
alluding to that more clearly shows the site. We almost - well, really all of the
construction contemplated in this $20 million project is contained in this footprint
here; and as you can see there is area out here that we can expand into. As we
have thought for many years about what would happen it was kind of a pipe
dream at the time, but what would happen beyond 9 million gallons per day, we
envisioned almost a wrap around plant back here because this footprint will just
be maxed out with this upcoming project. We are going to have to utilize some of
this. You recall on our enhancements we asked for another $1.2 million for land
purchase, we didn't really have any particular land in mind, but it seemed
appropriate with all the discussion of development in this WWTP mixed-use
comprehensive plan designation that maybe we needed to increase our buffer
somewhere in here. Of course, this has already received Council approval for
Preliminary Plat, but other than that just looking in this area.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad, what have we got, 47 acres there now that we sit on?
Watson: Councilmember Bird, I think that's right, it's between 45, 47.
Bird: And you are trying to pick up another 20 or so? Is that what it is Brad?
Watson: Well, it's under-
Bird: Or whatever you can get-
Watson: Well, the prices I am hearing for land lately, I am not sure that is going
to buy much.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
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Bird: Maybe an acre, huh?
Watson: I think, generally, that's what we had in mind at the time we wrote the
budget enhancement was around 20 acres. We will switch from the Waste
Water Treatment and turn to our collection's system. It's kind of an overview of
where we have been in the last four or five years. The city has added eight miles
of trunk line. Those include projects like the White Trunk, the North Slue, the
South Slue, Five Mile Relief Line - some of those bigger projects. There is an
additional four miles under design and construction is funded. Those include a
portion of the Black Cat. This Ten Mile diversion line, which is really - it's part of
the Black Cat project, but we named it something different and then also the
North Black Cat project, which is in 2006 budget. I had to show you a picture of
this. I thought this was pretty cool. This is Black Cat Road during construction
as you can see - well, hopefully, you can see that. It was torn up quite well. It
had a bad base under it and we actually went into a joint agreement with ACHD
to replace some of that. But, it was really torn apart.
De Weerd: How deep is that?
Watson: I think at its deepest point it was 30 feet deep - 36-inch sewer and 30
feet deep. Maybe a little more than that? If you know that area, groundwater is
bad. The contractor really did a good job on that, which was Bodifer
Construction, by the way. But, this is how it turned out, which I think is really
nice.
Bird: That looks nice.
Watson: That's a joint effort between our staff, ACHD, the contractor and really
the neighbors out there. It's - maybe I am not getting complaints anymore -
maybe Len's getting them all, I don't know. It seemed like a pretty smooth
project. I know we had a few hiccoughs for access to driveways, but I think it
went pretty well. This is a picture of the lift station that is being constructed. That
is where that big sewer down Black Cat is going to end up. This is a picture
from, I think, probably a month or month and one half ago, where they are
pouring the second deck of this - what is essentially a three-story structure.
Well, only one story is above ground, most of it is underground. This picture
doesn't do justice for the size of this crater out here and the amount of concrete
that has went into it. But, this is on schedule and it should be completed around
January 2006. The current Black Cat project that is funded is - well, let me
explain this a little bit. It terminates on Ten Mile Road in two places. There are a
few extra lines showing in here, going across country that aren't included in the
current project. The plan is to terminate here at Ten Mile Road on the main
Black Cat. This is what we call the Ten Mile diversion line that comes through
the Castlebrook Subdivisions; what is called the Chesterfield Subdivision and
through some other properties to Ten Mile Road. Currently, it is only constructed
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
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in the right-of-way of Franklin to this point. We have attempted to negotiate
easements with this property owner for quite some time. We have gotten word
recently that maybe a portion of that has changed hands and indications are that
easement negotiation will be a little quicker - to put it that way, I guess. Then we
thought we had an easement this property owner, without this easement we
haven't gone to full design, so once we get to full design with this section then I
think we will get a little closer to getting it out here. This portion of the project is
kind of hit and miss in my mind. It deals with a developer, a project that was
denied by Council, a church project that was approved by Council and then an
ACHD project that is coming for road widening in late 2006, so this one is a little
bit convoluted, but we will get there. All right. Here is where I get to tell you why
everyone is coming in, calling, sending emails and wanting meetings. These are
the development pressure areas. First one is no surprise to you - you have
funded the North Black Cat project. Let me orient you first. This map is very
busy. This is Highway 20-26; Chinden through here; McMillan and then Ustick is
just down here with the Waste Water Plant down here. At the lower part of the
screen, Ten Mile Road, Black Cat Road and McDermott over here. This line will
serve, essentially these two sections to the east, it may serve a little bit of
frontage along the west side of Black Cat, but really not too much because the
land slopes off to the northwest. What is shown up here is some of those
properties that are requesting inclusion in the City of Meridian area of impact.
There is a project that has been annexed in this general vicinity called
Bainbridge. There will be another project coming to you shortly or at least in the
next couple of months that - well, I have the figures here somewhere - well,
maybe I don't. It was around another 310 acres representing between 500 and
600 residential units. I believe timing may be an issue for those developers. We
do have a schedule for this project in terms of design and completion. A lot of it
is contingent upon easement acquisition and site selection for the lift station.
Everything here will have to be pumped back to the plant because again it is
down stream from the plant.
Bird: Brad, excuse me, Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: UH-hmn.
Bird: That lift station there is that going to be large like this one that you are
putting in down on the Black Cat Road? Or, now that we put that large one in we
will have to have that large one up there?
Watson: Madame Mayor, Councilmember Bird, it won't be that large. It will be
that deep. We haven't gotten to the point of selecting the pumping system; it'll be
in terms of gallons per minute, we'd (inaudible) 10 to 15 percent of the main
Black Cat. Okay, about 25 percent of the capacity of this main Black Cat that is
under construction. So, it will be a good sized one.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
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Bird: Brad, a follow up on that. Now, we are just developing actually from
Chinden south right now, but we are going to set the sewer deep enough that if
the stuff north of that comes in it will be able to hook into there to flow naturally
down to the lift station?
Watson: Yes.
Bird: Okay, thank you.
De Weerd: Brad, I guess, -- oh you are getting it. Forget it.
Watson: Okay. The next area just adjacent to what I spoke about is what we call
the McDermott trunk area. Our master plan for yours has showed another lift
station at the intersection of Five Mile Creek and McDermott Road and also
pumping back to the plant. Because this project is under the initial stages of
development, we haven't focused many of our efforts on this area. Development
terminates right now with Birchstone, or at Black Cat and Ustick Road and that is
as far west as the sewer can get back this way. We are getting really a lot of
inquiries about development in this area. I guess I don't need to go into all the
rumors because they are just rumors, but big chunks have been bought up by
different outfits and I have had - just as an example - with one developer, I have
had four meetings and they are requesting a fifth meeting to hear me say the
same thing about no we are not ready, I don't believe the Mayor and Council are
ready for this area; until I hear differently from them I am just not entertaining
development proposals. So, I guess that is partly why I am here to give you the
opportunity to tell me different on that area. We do have offers from these
developers saying we will build; we will build the trunk line along McDermott; we
will build the pressure sewer, whatever you need. The city won't be put out any
capital cost on this.
De Weerd: Well, right now, Brad you are studying the four square miles to the
west of that and I am assuming that that would pump into the McDermott?
Watson: Madame Mayor I am sorry I didn't mention that. Yes as part of the
contract that you approved with J-U-B earlier this spring, they are studying those
four square miles directly adjacent to this. Part of that study is what we are going
to do with this lift station; if it is actually built there or if we look at something that
is a little more regional down here or is there some staging where we kind of leap
frog and that is part of their ongoing study. In fact, I talked with J-U-B this
afternoon. I think Clint was in the room as well and they are right now modeling
that section. That is what they are working on right now. So, I don't have any
results on what they want to do or recommend.
De Weerd: And that is also study area for a major roadway that we also want to
take into consideration as well.
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August 30, 2005
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Watson: Correct Madame Mayor and J-U-B is aware of that.
De Weerd: Council, I think the last word staff had is until the expansion is
completely on line that trunk is not a consideration and you don't hear anyone
changing that.
Watson: Okay, this is the heart of the presentation where we actually tell you our
little problem. We got an area of the city where we are really down to the wire in
terms of sewer capacity. This is what is called the Ten Mile trunk. It serves the
area roughly between Meridian Road and Eagle and beyond south of Victory
Road. We have only 500 units of capacity left with those projects that have been
approved by Council, but there are another 870 units that are either getting ready
to submit or have had pre-application meetings with staff. We do have one staff
member that religiously tracks this and seems to take great pleasure saying the
daily updates of the number of the ERU's are in the red, so, this is pretty up to
the date. His name is Mike Cole, just for the record.
Bird: Brad, one question. To relieve that Ten Mile trunk, the only way we are
going to be able to relieve it on the south of the Freeway is to get to the Black
Cat underneath and over, right?
Watson: Madame Mayor, Council member Bird, that is - yeah. These next two
slides kind of show you what we are trying to do here. This is just a graphical
image from our sewer model. I apologize; it is a little bit grainy and faded out.
To orient you, here is Victory Road. These are the subdivisions that have been
approved and mostly built - there are some more in this vicinity that have been
approved. What you see traveling through here along Ten Mile Creek is,
amazingly enough, Ten Mile trunk and it is the one that is experiencing some
capacity issues. The main capacity issues are up here at Franklin and Linder.
So, the ultimate plan that has been in our master plan for years and years, is that
at some point this Black Cat would come under the freeway over to Meridian
Road and that we would divert flow from the south over westward and that is why
that Black Cat trunk in size is so big. If you want to go to the next slide, I will
show you what we are looking at here. As it says, we are pursuing immediate
short term and long-term solutions. The short term or the immediate solution that
would enable us to add another 1,300 ERU's in that area involves upgrading of a
lift station and a little bit of sewer line reconstruction. Len and Clint will have that
design contract front of you next week to get J-U-B going on that. One of the
other things that we will be pursuing with development is, sorry I used utilization
and not use - we are going to utilize off peak pumping for new developments if
they are of any significant size. We obviously can't do that and make it cost
effective for a 20-lot subdivision. Hopefully we can a little bit of regionalization
going. The idea of this is that subdivisions retain their sewage onsite in a large
holding tank and they pump in the middle of the night or whenever the flows are
low. This is something that I never would have dreamed that we would consider
two or three years ago. We are kind of at that point where we are going to have
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August 30,2005
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to squeeze some efficiencies out of the existing system until the ultimate solution
is in the ground.
Donnell: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Ms. Donnell.
Donnell: So, Brad, say that again. That in using the existing infrastructure that is
in place, you have - what do you do? You hold -
Watson: Yeah.
Donnell: And then you move it off peak times?
Watson: Right.
Donnell: Where do you hold it?
Watson: They hold it in a large concrete, usually it's a concrete vault-type thing
that is underground. It's not a really popular way to do it because of potential
odor problems, there is pumping costs, there is maintenance issues. The way
we do want to pursue it though is the developers will be responsible for having
their own O&M contract on that facility, the pumping station, the holding tank and
there are companies out there that do that.
Donnell: So, it's the developer that pays for that holding tank?
Watson: Yes.
Donnell: And maintains it?
Watson: Yes.
De Weerd: And takes the phone calls of the odor?
Watson: That is the goal, yes.
Bird: Who is responsible for the lift station?
Watson: It's part of the holding tank.
Bird: It is part of the holding - and they are going to be responsible for
maintenance?
Watson: Yeah, and actually the way-
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August 30, 2005
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Bird: You are asking for a can of worms.
Watson: Well, we have lift stations that are run that way, now.
Bird: No, I know. I realize that but-
Donnell: Okie dokie. Sure glad I asked that question. Moving right along.
Watson: The concept, just to back up a little bit and make it a little more clear is
similar to the Interstate in the morning. Instead of adding more cars at peak time,
we are holding them all in Caldwell until two in the morning and then sending
them through.
Donnell: Oh, if we could only do that.
De Weerd: Can you figure out that collection system for cars? That would be
nice.
Watson: Well, I will just close with that idea by saying, you know, that's what we
are investigating right now, if much more development is going to occur in that
area in the near future.
De Weerd: Now, Brad are those ERU's committed through the preliminary plats
or are those final plats?
Watson: Madame Mayor, the way we treat it is technically it's you're your
annexation. That's when we feel like that is committed to the developer. But, we
base that number on the preliminary plat that you almost always approve at the
same time. Once that is done then those are committed, we feel. One of the
other options that we have only just briefly looked at is more of a sub-regional lift
station located in the vicinity of Overland and Linder Road that would pump over
into the Black Cat on the north side of the Interstate. This would involve
construction of some of that Black Cat trunk east of Linder Road and, in fact, it
would go through Bear Creek Park and we would be tearing that up. It would be
a sizable project, but that is one of the things that at least have been thrown out
there. Obviously, the ultimate solution is the extension of the Black Cat trunk
from where we are terminating it with our current project to Meridian Road where
it needs to join up.
Bird: Brad, do you have an estimate on what the extend from the freeway at the
Ten Mile Interchange onto the end of the Black Cat - what kind of a dollar figure
we - at one time J-U-B had given us some kind of dollar figure and estimate?
And I can't remember what it was and of course it wouldn't be current.
Watson: You are talking about this gap from where we are terminating all the
way over to the Meridian Road? Essentially, is that what -?
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August30,2005
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Bird: No I am talking from where we come under the underpass on south Black
Cat.
Watson: Okay. The rough figure that we had been using for sewer construction
was about a $1 million per mile. That is proving inadequate anymore with the
prices we are seeing.
Bird: I was going to say more like $2.9.
Watson: Yeah, and I should back up. That one on Black Cat road was much
higher because of the road reconstruction as well. Where this one is really going
cross-country through here, although we would have to go through and tear out
the park and replace that, a lot of this is not in public right-of-way. Although, the
State Highway and that might be a little tricky coming up through there. I would
guess that $4 million?
(Inaudible discussion)
Watson: $4 million or that range.
Bird: And that wouldn't include coring under the freeway and getting it across
with it?
Watson: No.
Bird: Okay. Thank you, Brad.
Watson: We will move on a little bit, but I think I do want to come back to that
Black Cat area and maybe look at - or discuss some timelines with you on at
least what you think we should be doing in terms of getting that under the
Interstate. Anyway, we will come back to that in a little bit. The final thing that I
have in our presentation is a discussion of what we just call the south area. To
give you a little history on this, staff met with surrounding cities, municipalities in
November, December of 2004. We met with Boise City individually and then we
did, in December, have a joint meeting with Nampa's Public Works Director,
Kuna's Consulting Engineer and us, I guess. Three parties there - Kuna, Nampa
and Meridian to discuss just where the ultimate boundaries. The meeting with
Boise City went pretty well - a very good arrangement with them, we just really
look at sewer-ability. Paul Raymond from Nampa City, he just said we are not
going across the County line, so that was easy. When we were meeting with
Kuna, there was an area, a large triangle in this vicinity that didn't seem anyone
was really planning for at the time, so we just kind of drew on a map with markers
and everything and it all kind of went away. So, our staff got to looking at it and
thinking, well, you know somebody needs to do something and so we started just
kind of planning on what we were going to do and how we were going to study
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30. 2005
Page 14 of 34
that and we ended up negotiating a contract with J-U-B Engineers to study, not
only the no-mans-Iand as it was called at the time, but also the four square miles
up in the northwest Evidently, Kuna came away from that meeting with really
the same inclination to plan for that no-mans-Iand. This will help, just kind of look
at the area in general. The shading on the lines doesn't come out, but this is the
City of Meridian area of impact boundary. These are those notorious referral
areas up in here. I think - I believe this is Kuna's current area of impact
boundary and we just pulled this off the GIS layer that we have as something
called Kuna's referral area. I am not sure that that is real or not. There seems to
be some dispute or some - it is? The Planning Director agrees that it is real. I
did tried to find you late this afternoon to ask you about that, but she was in a
meeting probably with a developer. Anyway, so we patched J-U-B with studying
all this area and we scored it off at Columbia Road because we have already
planned sewer in this through our master plan, so we all we did was just to make
it simple was to just square it off. We did understand that Kuna's plan at that
time went a half-mile, I believe, at north of Columbia. So, there is a little bit of
overlap, but in terms of big sewer plans, it didn't seem like that big of deal at the
time. We have, over the summer, met with City of Kuna and we met with Kuna's
Consulting Engineer, who is acting as their City Engineer. We had some decent
discussions on how we are going to jointly plan this - maybe construct it, maybe
operate it and all kinds of ideas floating around - can you go to the next slide
line? So, what we did is just put together six alternatives that we could look at
out in that area. They ranged from Kuna built plant with Meridian as a customer
and vice-a-versa; a creation of a third entity that oversaw the whole area in like a
regional sewer board and everything in between. As we were thinking about this,
one of the things that made the most sense to engineering staff was if there is
development to be done out there and we really want, at least from the City of
Meridian's perspective and if we really want to plan this properly, we need to step
back a little bit and take some time. Not so much in the collection system, but in
the ultimate treatment of sewage or wastewater in that area. To allow that
planning period and what we think would be the negotiations with EPA on a
discharge permit - if we do determine that development is imminent out there
then this interim pump station on Mason Creek and pumping back to Meridian's
Black Cat system seemed to be the most expeditious solution to get things going.
If you could flip back to that map real quick. Mason Creek is this water body that
flows through here. So, we were just thinking this is the low point of the sewer
drainage. If we could just pump over the hill, under the Interstate. It's really not
that faraway to the Black Cat trunk that is just being constructed and it will be
operational in January. So, what we are going to do is we are going to have J-U-
B finish off their study as they were originally tasked, squaring it off at Columbia
Road and we will continue seeing what we need to do out there. We did meet
with DEQ staff just in initial scoping meeting yesterday morning to talk about
alternatives and what they thought timelines were for discharge permits and or
land application permits and just kind of help us walk through that process. It
was a very good meeting. It really was.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30. 2005
Page 15 of 34
Rountree: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Yes, Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Can you give us some of the details, some of the hope or lack of hope
they might have expressed to you?
Watson: Oh, the DEQ?
Rountree: Yeah, the DEQ.
Watson: Yes, Councilman Rountree. EPA is an odd organization because
sometimes they can act very quickly, but their belief was that probably three, up
to five years to get that discharged permit. There are some anomalies, we've
learned, where they actually have secured those in 18 months, but I think that
wasn't for municipality, that was for something else that maybe had some
backers elsewhere. The Regional Engineering Manager at DEQ was not
optimistic that it would really be too much less than five years to secure that.
Just as an example, we have had our renewal into EPA -
Speaker unknown: In June 2004.
Watson: Yeah, 15 months and we haven't heard anything from them. No word,
no comments, nothing.
De Weerd: And did you say that was the good news?
Watson: I didn't say it was good news. I said it was a good meeting. We just
talked about a lot of different things and they were very appreciative of us coming
in and just kind of talking about grand planning and they were very forthcoming.
It was a good constructive meeting. It wasn't good news, necessarily. The-
(Tape turned over)
Watson: -- seemed to be interested in this lift station option as far as an interim
regional solution.
De Weerd: Brad, with the lift station as an interim solution to some of the issues
out there, what would be a timeframe?
Watson: We have talked about that and I forgot to mention that about two weeks
ago as promised we got staff together with J-U-B (inaudible---) and didn't come
out until we had at least a few solutions to something. That is where some of
that Ten Mile trunk stuff came from. We talked about schedule on this interim
idea, kicked it around and you know if you threw everything out and had some
decent negotiations with some of the other agencies - Nampa, Meridian, ITD
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 16 of 34
getting under the Interstate, 18 months is achievable. We have had some
meetings with or a meeting maybe with a property owner in that area. Maybe
site selection wouldn't be as hard as we think it might be, but we haven't really
talked about specific spots too much.
De Weerd: Now, would this also be a solution then to the south Ten Mile trunk?
Watson: Madame Mayor, no. No, it would be separate. It would not solve that
at all.
De Weerd: You would have to bore under 1-84 in two places, then?
Watson: Yes. Well, based on the master plan it looks like yes. Maybe we
haven't gone far enough down that analysis, but maybe we could. It depends on
where that main Black Cat trunk comes under the Interstate. If we shuffle it one
way or the other then maybe they could co-exist in one spot, but we haven't
gotten that far.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad, I am sure it is quite expensive to bore under that deal. What would
we have to - this one you are putting in from the lift stations a temporary line that
goes away once Black Cat is finalized? Why couldn't we run Black Cat out at the
same time the lift station is going in, out this end and pumped back to it?
Because it looks like from where the lift station was originally shown on J-U-B
and I presume it is about in the same area - Amity and Ten Mile or somewhere
in that area. We are going to run that with it's own line back and under the
freeway and into the Black Cat at that point?
Watson: Councilman Bird, let me make sure I - the south area interim solution is
over here to the west and it would have to pump over into the main Black Cat.
Were you talking about this over here?
Bird: Brad, what I was talking about was if we ran the Black Cat out so far that to
me if you are just putting in a temporary that pump station, unless you have
changed and that is going to be a permanent line in there, that pump station from
the original J-U-B study showed pumping back and coming into the Black Cat, I
think it was a little bit south of Victory Road or there somewhere the Black Cat
come across - that area pumped back into there.
Watson: Councilman Bird our ultimate plan doesn't have any lift stations
anywhere south of the Interstate. It is all served by gravity. These dots and
maybe I should have specified that, these are simply diversion structures that
have gates in them.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 17 of 34
Bird: I thought that south - I swore that that J-U-B that we got in 1998 or 1999
showed a lift station in the southwest corner of our impact area that had to be
lifted back and it was not a natural flow.
Watson: There was an area, a small corner of our area of impact now and I am
trying to find it here. I think it was maybe just this corner where it couldn't be
served by gravity and if it were ever to be served it would have to be pumped
over. But, it was just a very, very small portion of the area of impact. Everything
that was in our sewer master plan south of the Interstate, flowed by gravity into
the Ten Mile, Black Cat or the Five Mile trunk. But, this would have to be
pumped over the hill because there was, as you well know, that big ridge that
goes through here. That's really the end of the presentation on what we are
doing, what we are facing, where we are. The kind of two big things hanging out
there are that Black Cat trunk - how soon do you want to get it pushed and if you
have any direction on this south area. As I said, we are just going to get J-U-B to
finish off this study. If there is some direction to accelerate, looking into that
interim lift station we'll certainly proceed that way.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad is there any kind of an estimate on lift stations you or Len have like
per square foot or gallons pumped or however you measure?
Watson: Councîlmember Bird we did discuss that at that same meeting. Sorry, I
should be a little more prepared.
Bird: Oh, you are fine, Brad.
Watson: I am thinking that we are looking into the $2 to $3 million range
between pressure, sewer and the lift station.
Bird: Then we would have the mile or the cost per mile of getting it back to the
Black Cat sewer?
Watson: No, that was included in the pressure sewer.
Bird: That would include that?
Watson: Yeah, because that doesn't need to be the big trunk. It's a pressure
line. Although we did talk about -
Bird: What size of line would you use on something like that, Brad? You
wouldn't use a 36-inch line?
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 18 of 34
Watson: No. It would probably be like a pair 12. Something that's a little bit
bigger, you usually want a little redundancy in case something happens and
while you are in the road you just put in two to handle your ultimate flow.
Bird: And then you say that we already have J-U-B doing some studying out
there?
Watson: Yeah, they do. The study that was approved in April, it's not only
looking at the topography and planning the collection system, but part of their
task is to look at this long-term pumping as the ultimate solution, a scalping plan,
which is basically a plan that takes - it just partially cleans the sewage and then
pumps the rest of it to the plant or a new plant. But, the new plant study a portion
of that project is really just more a preliminary look, conceptual level cost. It
wasn't really going to look at ultimate treatment. I mean, it wasn't going to get
into that much detail. It was -
Bird: Thank you.
(Inaudible discussion)
Watson: Len was just pointing out that part of the reason that we think we can
build this a little faster and is the pressure sewer pumping back over the hill
would be in the right-of-way so the easement acquisition would be not as intense.
Although, when you get to the Interstate you obviously can't bore under the
overpass so you have got to kind of come out and around. We also talked about
maybe making that pressure sewer that is going up the hill at grade so that it can
be turned into a gravity sewer in the future and those sorts of things. But, I think
we were talking about $3 million, plus or minus, dollar range.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Brad, when we went under the Interstate, we'd go deep enough that when
they put the interchange in it wouldn't - or would we be out of the area of the
interchange?
Watson: I would really like to be out of the footprint of that interchange, most
definitely.
Bird: I would hate to be the guy that hit it.
Watson: It would be pretty - well, you never know until the interchange is
designed exactly where it's going to be.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August30,2005
Page 19 of 34
Bird: That's what I mean, yeah. So, you say this is an approximately 18 month-
did I hear you and Len figured?
Watson: Well, it's achievable, I believe, in 18 months. I am not going to sit here
and sign my name to it and say I can do it in 18 months. You know the White
trunk project seemed easy too. Four years later it was -
Bird: It did cost you a couple of gray hairs.
Watson: It just cost me hair.
De Weerd: Commissioner Borup is doing this a while back and I am sorry I didn't
acknowledge that for the record, but thank you Keith for joining us. Commission,
do you have any questions or anything you would like to add to this discussion?
I am sorry this is an awkward format. It doesn't really - it's not conducive to
spontaneous questions from you is it?
Zaremba: It's not quite a roundtable, no. Thank you, Madame Mayor, members
of the Commission. My only comment was that I wanted to thank Brad for his
presentation and also to state that the Planning and Zoning Commission certainly
feels the support of the Public Works Department and all of the projects that
come before us and the good thinking and planning. I will have to say during
your presentation every question I thought of was eventually answered before I
could ask the question. A few more were asked by the Council and that left me
with no questions to ask. But, I just wanted to state that I appreciate the
presentation and appreciate it being included in hearing the plans for Public
Works. Thank you.
Rountree: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I think one of the things that Brad is after is some direction in terms of
the Black Cat trunk; I personally believe that we are at an issue there, a critical
impasse. If we don't do something, I would like to see a funding phased analysis
put together to see, you know, what incrementally we can do in terms of
extension of the trunk line and what we yield verses the investment we make.
The other area you identify as trying to meet your goals this evening is the south
area. I think that is certainly an area where Meridian could potentially grow in the
future. I would encourage that we get J-U-B to finish that analysis, get that to us
as soon as possible so we can start contemplating what is our desires in that
particular part of the county or not as the case may be depending on what the -
at least what the infrastructure analysis looks like as well as the additional four
square miles to the northwest. I had a question on that. Have you discussed
with Paul at all what Nampa's designs are in that area in the northwest, actually
the northeast of Canyon County? Are they looking at expanding into that area?
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 20 of 34
Is that something that if we look at infrastructure, could we possibly do something
in that area as well?
Watson: Madame Mayor, Councilmember Rountree, I have had no further
discussions with Director Raymond other than he has no interest in crossing the
county line. But, I think he pretty well has plans to go to the county line. At least,
where we were specifically talking about that day down between the Meridian /
Kuna area. I have not talked to him specifically about that area.
Rountree: Well, I just ask that because I think we are quickly becoming an area
or we need to look at some more regional solutions as opposed to city by city
solutions and I think that area lends itself to that and if there is something we
could do jointly, even south might be a possibility - leveraging the taxpayer
dollars to provide some good for the county and other communities is probably
something that we shouldn't let slip by at this early planning stage.
Watson: Madame Mayor, Councilmember Rountree I totally agree and whatever
we do in terms of wastewater, I think it should be the biggest bang for the public's
buck, whether it's a regional system or individual plans, I don't think it's in the
public's best interest to have plants strung up and down north and south Ada
County and so those are kind of the things that we are keeping in mind as we
plan.
Rountree: Very good. Thank you.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Mr. Rountree, what I heard is that you would like to have a time limit on the
Black Cat coming through and kind of a cost estimate of what we can do and I
agree with you wholeheartedly - I would like to have a time limit with a cost and
then I think we also need to get a more definite cost and study on that south west
corner lift station coming back, too, Brad and get something in the plans so that
these developers and property owners will have some kind of an idea of when
and where and why when will be there and I think it's just to our advantage as I
have always said the more we sewer out the better we can control the
development as a city. I am like Charlie, I'd like to see if Nampa, Caldwell, well,
however, we can regionally work with and I am for working with them. I know
Caldwell is a long ways.
De Weerd: Caldwell, I was going to say oh my God.
Bird: I was going to say not anymore. They might wrap around and come back
and see us.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 21 of 34
De Weerd: We did have six options to discuss with Kuna. We had a joint
meeting planned on the 2nd of August and they have called and canceled that. If
Council would like me to I can draft a letter asking or inquiring as to their interest
of setting a date for that joint meeting to present those six options and maybe by
then we can have more detail as to a possible timeframe or at least a step plan,
is that possible, Brad?
Watson: Madame Mayor, yeah, we'll talk to J-U-B and we will extract every bit of
information we can out of them. We are their main client right now. So, we have
the ability to kind of shuffle amongst projects a little bit.
De Weerd: Internally, I think I heard Councilmen Rountree and Bird mention that
it might be advantageous at this point and the study with J-U-B and also
exploring options is to talk to Nampa and see what their plans are too. So, I can
draft a letter to Kuna and if our Public Works staff can start putting together some
more details to what we can present to them in a joint meeting.
Watson: Sure, thank you, Madame Mayor and we will do that. I apologize we
don't have more on that, but believe it or not we are going full force on some
different fronts right now that we had this opportunity to come to with what we
had today and we will go back and get that stuff to you.
De Weerd: Well, there is no doubt it sounds like you have major projects. The
expansion, developing an RFP looking out to 2009, the north area, then south
area and the Black Cat so it does sound like you have an over full plate.
Watson: And Madame Mayor, if I could just remind you that this is just one of our
three divisions.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: And Brad, you know another great presentation by your staff and yourself.
I echo Commissioner Zaremba's words that you guys do a very great job. The
public doesn't realize what they get for their dollar through you guys. We
certainly appreciate it. Water, Sewer and Public Works is very, very important. If
you don't believe it just let it break down for a day or two, right? Or have a glitch
in it?
De Weerd: No, don't let it.
Bird: Tam don't want all the calls, but a very nice presentation and we need to
do this more often so that we are kept abreast and we can keep ourselves
abreast with what we need to be doing, what you are recommending to us.
Anyway, thank you, again, very much Brad for your presentation.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30. 2005
Page 22 of 34
Watson: Thank you, I do appreciate your time.
Donnell: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Ms. Donnell.
Donnell: If I might add something if I could get a work in edgewise with
Councilman Bird down there. First of alii can't imagine anybody as a little boy or
girl say I am going to be in wastewater treatment when I grow up. That is going
to be my goal. I can't imagine that, but I too want to add my thanks for
everything that you do and I think much differently when I flush the toilet and turn
on the water than I used to think when I didn't ever think about it. I just expect
the water to flow and the toilets to flush and so I truly do appreciate all that you
do and your staff and I know it's a big job. Thank you.
De Weerd: That's the next step, the education of flushing the toilets and turning
the water on.
(Inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: Is there any other questions or comments from Council? Thank you
and your staff for the presentation. Did you get all the direction that you needed
from Council?
Watson: We did. We know what we need to do and we will come back to you
with that information and go on from there. Thank you.
Item 5.
Parking Demand and Traffic Generation Analysis for
Downtown Meridian Update by Tom Hudson:
De Weerd: There was an item on our agenda or there was an item that was not
amended to the agenda and that is a parking presentation and we have Tom
Hudson here. The consultant that has worked on our Downtown Market Study
as well as the downtown traffic study. Clair do you want to tell us why we are
here?
Bowman: I could (inaudible) a little bit while Tom is setting up here.
De Weerd: That would be excellent. And Council, I apologize I heard from my
secretary, I told her to call Keith and then I never heard back, so -
Bird: She just called me and said when do you want it, before or after? I said I
didn't care.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 23 of 34
Bowman: Madame Mayor and members of the Council, I am Clair Bowman, the
Administrator for the Urban Renewal Agency. I will introduce this presentation
and turn it over to Tom Hudson then to make it. When the City of Meridian and
the Ada County Highway District jointly contracted with the Hudson Company to
complete the Downtown Transportation Management Plan, there was an
addendum added to that by the City of Meridian and paid for by the City of
Meridian to develop a parking model for forecasting parking needs in downtown
Meridian. Tom completed that in working with Steve Siddoway and myself. A
couple of months ago there have been a series of polishing efforts to that and
this morning, Steve, Tom and I met for, I think, what will be the last time for most
of the morning to review it in it's final form and get it ready to turn over officially.
The purpose of this presentation this evening is to introduce the Council and
members in the audience to the concepts behind that study, some of the
conclusions of it and perhaps recommendations and as always Tom's very deep
knowledge of what goes on in this community and some examples for the
Council of how it might help us as we move forward in the future. Mr. Hudson.
Hudson: Madame Mayor, members of the Council. It is nice to see you again. I
am understanding that you have already been through a lot this evening and we
will move through this as quickly as you would like. I stand prepared to ask
answer any questions, but if I speak quickly it's only in respect to your time.
De Weerd: Well, I think we always get you when you speak quickly, but we
always appreciate you speaking quickly.
Hudson: I will take your direction on slowing down if you care to. As a précis I
would like to share that this project actually has had a great deal of benefit for
planning and transportation of the city in a number of ways and so I would like to
touch on that for a moment. We did a lot of detailed computer modeling to
prepare a projections for (inaudible) both parking and traffic generation elements
of this analysis and in doing that we created tools that are going to be readily
available to the city for such things as working with the developers in the future to
understand the kind of development potential particular lots might have. You will
be able to do a lot of forecasting in the future in a number of different ways that
relate to building square footage, building heights, layouts, etc., so this is a great
tool that has developed. One other item I'd share is that we did this modeling as
a collaboration, so Steve Siddoway, Clair Bowman and I had a great deal of time
together in preparing it and those gentlemen know a lot about the model so that
they can use it on a day-to-day basis and Mr. Bowman shared with me today that
it's already been put into use working with the private sector to assist in potential
investment in the downtown and in helping guide that process. We are going to
look at that slide all night, I guess. Just a little bit of project context here. I
wanted to emphasize that this is very timely to do this particular project We
have an Executive Director now with the Meridian Development Corporation.
Marketing strategy has been completed as you know. The traffic management
plan is done. We are all seeing the extensive and in some cases the explosive
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30,2005
Page 24 of 34
growth around the community and there is this question of well what kind of
growth can we anticipate here in the downtown and what's it likely to do to
parking and traffic? Then of course, the final point is - I think we are all sensitive
to, I almost hesitated to mention it, but we do have challenges today that this kind
of information can help us with. To prepare for the analysis we went through, I
would have to say a painstaking process of acquiring accurate data. To put the
best face on it, we found ample opportunities to improve the existing data at the
county on downtown properties and as a result, the Meridian Development
Corporation and the city now have very accurate information on what we have in
terms of built space and land in the downtown. That's another element that I
think is a benefit from the project. We also used two very important standards in
the nation on making our projections. So, with good baseline information we
followed the parking handbook for small communities, which is the standard out
there for parking demand analysis and then trip generation from the Institute of
Transportation Engineers for traffic generation from different types of land uses.
So, we got into a lot of detail there and we are very current with the data sources
that we use to make our projections. Very quickly, this is an aerial photo of the
general downtown area. I wanted to give you a quick orientation of Fairview and
Cherry or it should be Cherry / Fairview at the top. Main down at the left hand
side, Idaho and then the railroad. We followed the boundaries or used the
boundaries established in the marketing strategy and also in the parking study
that was done some time ago about inventory of what's out there and look closer
at the kinds of land uses that are going on in this particular district. Parking
generation and also traffic generation are greatly depended upon the kind of land
use that is out there and we found that there are really different mixes of land
uses going on within the district and so we divided it into three different sub-
districts - A, Band C. With B being the more or less historic core of the
downtown and C being the area along the railroad - an important point in terms
of our forecasting. Overall 74 acres are inside the study area. I would like you to
keep the number in mind as we look at some of the projections. Using good
information that the city had already acquired and doing some refinements to
make sure that it was entirely accurate, we had a complete inventory of on-street
and off-street parking in the downtown - 1,785 units. I thought it would be helpful
for you to get a sense of 1785 means if you are not dealing with parking
everyday, it's - there is not much context for it, so I looked at Nampa, Sand Point
and Rexburg at their total parking units in their downtown core. You see the total
number of blocks and the number on the right hand side is the average units per
block. What you see is that Meridian is not substantially lower, but it is a bit
lower than those other three towns that are fairly similar in both the historic
development and in the relative size of blocks and so on. Rexburg is little
different in the size. I think that the main explanation for that is that there is
relatively little public parking in downtown Meridian; whereas there is significantly
more public lots in the other communities. Using the accurate data on existing
buildings and land, we then did an analysis of parking demand to compare it to
that supply that I just mentioned. Parking demand right now in this downtown is
relatively low, given a very low density of structures. So, you have a total parking
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 25 of 34
demand of about 856 units - you see I have divided by district compared to
parking supply of not under 1,800. So, you technically you have got a surplus of
about 930 units. Now, I have made a couple of observations there at the bottom.
I won't read through all three, but I think that we should emphasize that there are
places where there is going to be and has been recent frustration in the supply of
parking. For example, at Idaho and Main, those of us who drive by regularly see
that it's kind of hard to find a parking spot right there. But, you don't have to go
very far to places where there is parking. I think one of the challenges that the
downtown Meridian has today is there really isn't a parking system in place that
is strategically oriented. So, those people who don't know the downtown, don't
find their way to those other parking units. And a parking master plan probably
would be very helpful for taking better advantage of the existing parking that you
have.
De Weerd: But, at least it's free.
Hudson: I wanted to show you the parking surplus today by district. About 361
in A; and relatively small amount in C; the largest is in B, which is the historic
core and again that could be tapped more readily with some fairly straightforward
and relatively inexpensive and primarily designed tools. Now, it's impossible with
the kind of growth that you have in this community today to know exactly what
your futures are going to be in 15 years. Who would have thought that in 1990
when there were about 9,000 that you would be where you are today? So, rather
than trying to be smarter than we really are, what we did was bracketing; looking
at three different scenarios - moderate growth, which I will define in a little bit;
aggressive growth; and full build out. That had to do primarily with the density
per block that we would project. Just to give you a quick example, under
moderate growth scenario, we assume that in district A, the northern district, the
average building height would be two stories. Now, think about that. Today how
many of those are single-story buildings? So, we are seeing under moderate
growth the average would be two stories. And in B, two-stories and in C four
stories. We then went up with aggressive and full build out was 4, 4 and 6. So,
2, 2 and 3; 3, 3 and 5, I think it was and then 4, 4 and 6 floors. We did not go
higher than four stories in either of districts A or B. I think the main point with all
of this is that demand will increase substantially. Those numbers, the additional
parking units required under moderate growth, that goes above and beyond the
current surplus, so given your total parking inventory today, will eat up that
surplus and we'll need 1,628 units more than we have today. That's a large
number. We, of course, looked at that shortage over time under the various
different scenarios by district. The greatest shortage will be in district C. Keep in
mind that district C is where we are looking along the railroad at relatively high-
density development where there is very, very little today. So, very low parking
demand. A vary of small number of parking units in that area. As that intensifies,
you'll need substantially more units. I wanted to give you a sense, in this case
dollars and cents of what it would mean if the parking that is needed to cover
these different scenarios of future growth were covered by the public sector.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 26 of 34
Under the moderate growth scenario, we would need $17.1 million to provide all
of the additional parking that would be needed. That is the equivalent of 13.1
acres of land. Now, if you have a four-story parking garage, you would divide the
13.1 by 4. See what I mean? So, it's just the equivalent space required. So,
under full build out, if you had four stories it would be - of everything in four story
parking garages, it would be a little over 15 acres, as opposed to the 62 that is
there. Main point here is a lot of money. Now, this was the technical analysis we
did. We weren't asked to make a lot of recommendations for the future, but I
would like to share a couple of thoughts with you from where I sit in Downtown
Revitalization. First of all, an historic core works best when it's highest density so
that there is a complimentary set of businesses that are attracting substantial
numbers of pedestrians and if we were to require a lot of parking in the core,
what would happen is what a lot of other towns have seen and then had to
overcome and that is developers would have to buy two buildings, knock one
down and develop the other. You see what I mean? And there would be holes
all over the downtown core. So, many, many downtowns around the country,
don't in the core require parking onsite. Many of them do require some parking,
but they have a system called fee in lieu of parking, where future development
pays into a pool rather than providing parking onsite and that pool is used to
provide public parking. But, the historic core would not be the best place to
require parking in the middle of it, but it would be very well served by a public
parking garage in some peripheral location. What is the best place? Well, you
could study that a lot, but intuitively, as you are looking at developing district C
and the kinds of things that Council and your staff have been discussing in that
area, something that could serve both Band C would seem to me to be quite
strategic. So, something, for example, along Broadway or access from
Broadway would be a reasonable kind of contemplation. We are seeing more
and more demand as you know in the downtown for property. People, the
private sector is looking at doing it's own development of the parking. You could
ask the question, should we provide an incentive for people to develop here. I
think that there are many things in place now to start to do a lot more of the
attracting and you may not have to go so far as to provide parking everywhere
throughout the downtown and I think, especially in A, in C you'll find, or most
areas in C, that they are not close to new public facilities that the private sector
will provide that parking. Having said that, some public parking is pretty common
spread out through city centers elsewhere in the country. I just don't think that
providing it all is necessary and it would be very expensive to do so. There are
also quite a few tools that are available to help create incentives for it. I have
mentioned our set of definitions for growth. These are the building heights.
There are other kinds of variables that we use, but this is perhaps the most
important in terms of impact on building densities. Just also wanted to share with
you that our core assumptions - I mentioned the first one - full build out, we
think, is just unlikely in the foreseeable future. That was the one with the 4, 4
and 6 stories average in each district. For example, that would mean that the
building that George is in would be torn down and replaced by a four-story
building. I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. There are other
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 27 of 34
buildings that are relatively new that would have to be torn down to get up to 4, 4
and 6 right away. So, we provided the full build out scenario so that you would
have a good sense of what's the maximum that would be allowable under your
zoning. It's a good guide for comparison, but we really don't think that is where
you are headed in the near future. We focus most on the moderate scenario.
We are using national standards for our growth and demand projections and
those standards, by the way, look at examples from all over the country over a
period of years. So, it's the most reliable information that we have. The next
item, I think, is an intuitive one. The higher a building the more likely some
parking will be provided in the footprint. If you have got a parking requirement,
you have two choices - you put it within the footprint of the building or you put it
out on land. Well, the higher you go the more valuable the land and you are
going to be thinking about a degree of it going within the building, so that's part of
our modeling. Then in general, note that you find very few buildings, commercial
buildings that are used at 100 percent efficiency and when you add to that there
is even in a healthy environment that there is a degree of vacancy, we said that
the buildings are on average at 90 percent efficiency. So, whatever the growth
floor area is by district, we reduced it by 10 percent to start off with. You could
reduce it more, but we are trying to be conservative so that we don't under
project the future demands and then from there we projected both parking and
traffic. Just so you know because this computer is cutting off a lot of things here
and compressing it, I just want you to know that I am aesthetically displeased
with how things are being truncated and thrown off kilter, that is just not my style.
Donnell: That's okay, there.
Hudson: Thank you for noting that. The important number here is that you have
about 499,000 square feet of built space in this downtown area. That is not a
number that has been thrown around before. I think it's a very useful one for you
to be aware of. Now, if you were to look at ways of comparing that number, you
might contemplate for example malls, there is a hierarchy of shopping malls that
is super-regional, regional, community and neighborhood. An average regional
mall that if you look around the United States runs from somewhere around
400,000 square feet to about 800,000. A community level mall tends to be
around 250,000 to 450,000. There are other definitions to it, but that's the range,
so this is the equivalent of a relatively small regional mall. And this includes
about 124,000 square feet of residential. I think that will be helpful for you later
and it's also now a baseline for you as you watch development in the future in
your downtown, you will be able to see where we were and we are about to be.
These are exciting numbers to be able to have for your future. Another
aesthetically displeasing slide - today we have about in terms of trip generations
about 11,200 vehicles coming specifically to the downtown or leaving from an
origin in the downtown, 11,200. That is an important number. Now, those
vehicles are going in a lot of different directions and coming from a lot of different
directions, but it's a significant number. Now, under moderate growth scenario,
remember that is where you go to an average of 2, 2 and 3. Two stories in
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 28 of 34
district A and two in district B and three in district C and district C today is
probably at about .25, so that is pretty aggressive. You would go to 30,600 a
day. That is 19,400 more. The point that I think that carries with that is that
you're downtown has demand. There is going to be development. That
development will create traffic. That traffic will go on to your major arterials for
the most part. The point there is that under the moderate scenario you will see
main traffic grow by 273 percent. That should be a moment for pause, which
means to me that there have been some concerns expressed about too little
traffic on Main in the future. Think about what's happening here. We have a lot
of development going on that is going to be translated into people coming and
going from the downtown core and those people are going to be driving up and
down Main and Meridian Road and these other places and so whatever kind of
traffic solutions you have for your Transportation Management Program, you are
going to see substantially more traffic generated by your downtown. I think that
managed well that will be a positive contributor to business; managed poorly it
will continue to constrain the business activities that are here. Remember, the
very first public meeting we had about transportation management, we asked the
people in the room and it was quite a good house, is there anybody here that
doesn't want to do something? No hands came up, so we are in the do
something scenario. Our feeling is (inaudible) about the challenge will be with
regard to traffic and managing it so that an attractive pedestrian environment can
be sustained for the downtown and it's various customers and visitors. We know
have a great deal of information available to us that we can use for the tracking,
management and forecasting of the downtown parking and traffic. I think it is a
very important tool that the Meridian Development Corporation is working with
the city to make sure that this information is kept up to date and will be able to
bring you, I think, a lot more insight in the future about how we are doing with
both of those fields. I would be happy to take any thoughts or guidance.
(Tape turned over)
Wardle: My only question is what steps do we need to take to be able to release
this so that is available through our Economic Development Office?
Donnell: Okay, now so before you answer that, let me ask my question because
mine came before his? In thinking it came before his. This seems like this would
have been extremely helpful information for us when we had to make a decision
on the split corridor and it would have been helpful to the public, to those that
have a lot of concerns about the split corridor. So, my question is why did we not
either do this in conjunction with that or was that a topic of discussion in those
meetings and so why now after we have already made that decision?
Hudson: Madame Mayor, it's my favorite question. Thank you for asking it. The
reason is a lot of personal frustration for you staff, for Meridian Development
Corporation and myself. We have tried and tried and tried to get accurate data
since November. It wasn't there. When I say inaccurate, I mean terribly
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 29 of 34
information, it would take us months at a time, sometimes to get feedback on
questions of why is this number seeming to be so wrong. You can't have good
analysis if you don't have good base data. I finished this project in June, at great
cost to my company. I am one of your investors in your community today
because we had so much difficulty in getting a good baseline of information and
with the help of Mr. Bowman, a great deal of help, actually is that fair to say sir?
We eventually were able to find the errors in the county data, address them, and
get them modified, appropriately and properly out. But, we expected to have this
done in January, originally.
Donnell: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay, now back to Shaun's question. And that is when can it be
released and utilized for economic development?
Wardle: Well, it's obviously been released, I am just wondering when we can
incorporate that into what we are doing to further our redevelopment efforts.
De Weerd: I think it's important to talk about the MDC next steps that you'll be
going on into this new planning year and how you can utilize this information.
Bowman: Madame Mayor, members of the Council, perhaps I can add a bit to
Councilman Wardle's question. Part of the reason that Meridian Development
Corporation brought Tom back for the day today was because as Steve and I got
further and further into this, we realized that this not a model for a casual user.
This is a model that requires someone familiar with in some detail, economic
development concepts, a building efficiency ratios and concepts like that that are
a part of the development process. So, our focus, the entire morning this
morning was looking at the model in a way to say what would a new user have to
have as a minimum background set and then what do we need to tell them about
this model to make it maximally useful at some point when Steve and I will not be
involved in the use of this model. With that said, releasing it should be done - for
other people to use, should be done with a caveat about the need for some level
of sophistication. However, the concepts that are in it are wonderful and have
helped me understand the dynamics better between the buildings we choose, the
way the parking policies are established and the ultimate demand for parking.
Can we put it on a website and make it available to folks, generally? I just don't
think so. So, the primary way I would suggest releasing it - a long answer to a
short question, here, would be to give Cheryl Brown a copy of it and training and
using it or let her understand what's available there and have her ask Steve or
me to run it on her behalf. That would be my suggestion.
Hudson: Madame Mayor. Just a point of clarification, there are actually two
elements of the work. One is the technical memorandum, a hard copy, standard
report and the other is a model, computer model. The model has the level of
sophistication that was noted is something that you just don't - the average
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 30 of 34
person is not going to want to or be able to use. You have got fairly
sophisticated elements to it. It's a six part that is six different tables working
together in a number of ways to make sure that it's all very logical. Now, we -
anybody that understands real estate and can use excel will be able to fly
through this thing and it is a lot of fun for those people like us that get enjoyment
out of this sort of thing. Because it has so many insights that would be difficult
for people to use. There is nothing secret about it and if somebody really
demanded to see it, I personally wouldn't have a problem with them looking at
the model, but I don't it would be useful. But, the technical memorandum, I
would just ask, were you referring to that as well in some reluctance? Because I
think that speaks in plain English about some, you know, fairly sophisticated
issues and I think that could be readily made available to the public.
Wardle: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Wardle.
Wardle: Thank you, just a point of clarification. When I talk specifically about
economic development, I do talk more in general about site selection committees
and those people that are out doing that work that have been clamoring for this
information for years and years and years and probably very, very sophisticated
and so, if we do not publicize that we have now completed our study they will not
ask for it and if they do not ask for it they will not have the full capability to take
their models back to make investment decisions within the community. So, I
would recommend that, regardless of how we release it, we let everybody who
asks about our downtown know that we have this available for them to use.
Rountree: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I have two questions. One relates to this and another one - I'd like to
maybe borrow some of Tom's intellectual properties. But, I will get to that next.
Is there part of that memorandum or part of this activity today that we will move
forward with MDC that is a user guide? So, with the loss of Steve and the loss of
Clair, we don't have to find Tom again and retrain a couple more folks? If we
don't, I would charge Steve and Clair to get together and do that and have that in
record, probably in the Planning and Zoning office, so we can carry that forward.
Just a recommendation - if it's not been done, I think it needs to be done. Tom,
we are now seeing somewhat I thought were pretty neat business ventures in
downtown Meridian coming forth and saying they are losing tenants because of
parking. Yet, when you visit those particular stores, during the work day and in
one case it's a restaurant in the evening - it's been my observation and at least
the restaurant that I frequent quite a bit and the public provided parking is
generally either half or a third available and it seems to me that parking might be
part of the problem, but it seems to be an excuse for maybe a business venture
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
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that isn't quite meeting the business expectations. Have you run into that and
how does one cope with that in terms of public relations and that sort of thing?
Or, have you seen that in other communities.
Hudson: Madame Mayor. Yes, sir, we have seen it in other communities and I
think there really is a range of reasoning behind that challenge when people are
saying we are dying because of parking. In some cases, it's just bonafide. It
really is a substantial parking inventory problem that is there is not enough
parking. In many cases, it's a parking perception problem. That is there may be
plenty of parking technically, but there is a perception that it is not there and you
as leaders know as we do in planning that you can bump your chins a lot harder
on perception than on reality. That is if somebody believes it's not there, it
doesn't matter if it's there, it's just not until you work to fix it. Then there are
people who don't really have parking as the main problem, but it's a lot easier to
perceive parking as being the problem than something else. Now, what I have
found in your community, if I could just wear the hat of a critic for a moment on
the issue of parking - you know that I love this community, but you have
significant parking challenges and a lot of those parking challenges - you know
when looking at those numbers, the early numbers, you have a parking surplus,
but you have people complaining about no parking. Well, what is it about
humanity that's making that happen? Let's just assume that that's absolutely
correct on the surface; that people perceive that there is a real parking problem
and I think that that is the case. Very often what's going on there is that if they
don't see it immediately in front of where they want to go in a downtown, of
course, they complain. That's the stereotype, right? We have all heard that.
But, at the mall they are willing to go 150 yards across asphalt. What is the
difference? Well, there is a very good reason why there is a difference there and
a big part of it has to do with the issue of arrival, sense of arrival. When you get
to the mall and you are 150 yards away, you can see the front door. So, you
have arrived. But, in downtowns that are not strategically designed and this is
one of them today, if you can't park immediately in front of the business there is
nothing telling you where else to go. So, then you may, if you are aggressive go
find something else and park. Well, is it a good, positive walk from where you
park to where you want to go? In a lot of cases, it is not. There is no parking
sign that says go this way for more parking. You just don't find it, so you are on
your own. If you don't know where it is, it's like - we have got a private fishing
hole and we don't want people to know where it is. That's the way outsiders
would perceive it. Then, is it perceived as a safe walk, to and from? Most of the
year, about half of it, after about 4:00 or 4:30, it's dark, right? So even downtown
employees who know where all the parking is don't want to park very far away
because there are a number of dark streets in the downtown so they become
part of the challenge. They are going to logically and reasonably want to park
closer so that they don't have to go through dark spots or potholes or any
number of other things. Also, on your side streets and you have a great matrix
out there - have got great potential for a good internal circulation and parking
system, you don't have any kind of orientation. You are here. Here is where
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 32 of 34
everything else is - little kiosks that could help people and so on - better lighting,
more rewards along the way. The average individual moves at 2.5 miles an
hour. That's about 230 or 240 feet per minute. In two minutes, the studies say,
people get kind of cantankerous if they are not rewarded and you don't have a lot
of rewards on some of your side streets to get the people to walk very far. Now,
these are things that a parking master plan address and you could, I think, in
short order with relatively low investment address a lot of those kinds of issues to
actually improve access - you know the perception access to the parking that
you have. So, I think there is a lot of opportunity, in short to make better use of
what we have got. But, whatever you do, in short order, you are going to get a
shortage and so the next question is where will it go and how do you create
more?
Wardle: Thank you.
De Weerd: Any questions?
Siddoway: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Yes, Steve.
Siddoway: One quick follow up to Charlie's question. The idea of the User's
Guide was the intent of the whole morning session that the three of us spent
together. From this point forward we took a lot of notes from the conversation
with Tom. Clair is going to take the lead on writing the User's Guide into the
model itself and routing that through us for review and comment and any
additions, but the intent yes, very much is to come away from this with the User's
Guide.
Rountree: You might test that on Anna.
Siddoway: The second point I would like to make just quickly is building on what
Tom said and that is the idea that we got out of this process much more than just
a report. We do have a report than can be shared and published widely. We
also have a very interactive model built that allows us to change any
assumptions we want to if we don't like the assumptions that were made as we
move forward. If we want to test different ideas, different scenarios so we have
now a very powerful tool for MDC, in particular, to use as we forecast parking
needs into the future.
(Inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: Council, do you have any other questions?
Bird: No.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 33 of 34
Donnell: No.
Rountree: Tom, thank you.
De Weerd: We appreciate your commitment to our community. We like to see
you.
Hudson: I have to tell you it is such a pleasure working with your community and
if I could only have access to Steve Siddoway in every town where I worked, I
would be a much happier camper. He and his peers in Planning just don't have
an equal in this state, unless there is a community that I work with here in the
audience and also thanks to Clair Bowman, he has been just so exceptional in
helping. I hope this tool will really be very useful to you. This was quite a small
budget, I would like to conclude for this particular element, and I think it is one of
the best stretches of dollars that you will get for sometime. You will be able to
use this in many different ways. Thanks again.
Bird: Thank you for the donation.
Hudson: Thank you, sir.
De Weerd: Thank you and any final remarks, Clair? Okay, Council I would
entertain - and thank you to our Commissioners for joining us tonight. Did you
have any questions? Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. We appreciate
all you do. I think you spend many long hours - we get the minutes and so we
appreciate the work you do on behalf of our community.
Donnell: In fact, I think you need to be paid.
(Inaudible discussion)
Donnell: Your percent of increase is a whole lot.
(Inaudible discussion)
De Weerd: That is a 50 percent increase. I don't know if we can support that.
We will give it to a citizen's committee and ask them to make a recommendation.
Okay, Council, I would entertain a motion to adjourn.
Rountree: So moved.
Bird: Second.
Meridian City Council Joint Workshop & Special Meeting
August 30, 2005
Page 34 of 34
De Weerd: All those in favor say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:10 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
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