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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJune 16, 2005 P&Z Minutes Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 75 of 93 Item 14: Public Hearing: CUP 05~O28 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a counseling and massage therapy center in a proposed O-T zone for Meridian Counseling & Wellness Center by Ruth & Jeff Ulmer - 934 East 5th Street: Zaremba: Okay. We are ready to reconvene and let the record show that all Commissioners are present again and with that we will open Items 13 and 14, the Public Hearing for RZ 05-007 and the Public Hearing for CUP 05-028, both relating to Meridian Counseling and Wellness Center, 934 East 5th Street. And we will begin with the staff report. Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. As stated, the two applications before you are a rezone and a Conditional Use Permit on East 5th Street in downtown Meridian and at the corner of State -- of 5th and State. Jeff and Ruth Ulmer have applied for a Conditional Use Permit for the Meridian Counseling and Wellness Center, a professional office use in an existing single family home and with some remodeling, but I'll get to that more specifically here in a moment. The rezone is a rezone of .13 acres from what is currently R-8 and this first map will depict that better. The medium there being a large portion of the screen in the upper right and middle being R-8 zoning. They are requesting O-T, which would be the orange color over here. The Comprehensive Plan does depict this property as Old Town. The current zoning does yet reflect that and as properties develop and change, we will kind of get the checkerboard effect. You can a see property down here that is zoned Old Town. This is R-15 that separates the R-8 from the Old Town there. But under the Comprehensive Plan what we expect to see is over the years as downtown redevelops, that you will get more and more of the Old Town in this area as the area develops. For the rezone application it is worth noting that it is two blocks east of the nearest Old Town zone. The nearest nonresidential uses to the property, as near as I could tell, are a couple of churches here and, then, there is an antique sales shop on State at the corner of 2nd, which would -- let's see, this would be 3rd, 4th -- the second, so it's actually there. So, this would be the closest nonresidential uses. The rest of the properties between there still being residential uses. The Conditional Use Permit is for the professional office use in the Old Town zone. That is a conditional -- that does require a Conditional Use Permit. The site plan depicted here may be different from what's in your packets. You should have received this revised plan. Initially, the applicant had requested through ACHD to put some angled parking out in State Street. I did not attend that tech review, but it is my understanding that ACHD was not in support of that, so the applicant did go in for a site redesign, eliminating the current garage, which is shown in these kind of light lines here and bringing the parking into the site with the associated drive aisle and parking spaces. The only thing that would be in the ACHD right of way would be the loading area for the required handicapped space here. That will require a license agreement with ACHD and that is one of the conditions of approval in the staff report. A couple other things I will touch in quickly here are the applicant did depict the drive aisle adjacent to these parking spaces as 20 feet. Meridian City Code does require 25 feet, the applicant would be required to expand that parking, which does a couple things, it moves that parking closer to that east property line, reducing that -- what was a seven Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 76 of 93 foot strip to a two foot strip, making plantings fairly impractical. For that reason and often staff discusses alternative compliance with the Commission, what it allows is that on sites such as this with the constraints, code would require one tree per 35 feet along that property line. Well, I take that back. It would actually require a 60 percent visual screen at maturity, which can be reduced to one tree for 35 feet, with a solid fence. So, staff would recommend a six-foot solid fence along that property line and also the south property line. We recommend those as conditions of approval. And, then, I have also included some fairly specific recommendations for how they can provide plant materials that come close -- that do meet that one tree per 35 feet. The one tree per 35 don't have to be spaced at, you know, one tree per 35 feet. I would recommend an additional tree in the -- there is my mouse arrow. It came back. If this tree was moved a little bit to the west, you could get an additional tree in this corner, creating a nice little area back there and with -- I believe did recommend another addition of another tree along that line to get them to the one per 35. And, then, also along this east property line, if a tree was added in this area as part of the license agreement with ACHD, because they will have to provide some along here, that's another condition, to meet the one tree per 35 feet along the north property line. If one is provided in this area, staff feels that with that, combined with the six-foot fence, is a reasonable tradeoff, because of the space limitations of the site. As mentioned, they will be required to meet the one tree per 35 feet and a ten-foot landscape strip along both State Street and 5th Street. They are local streets. And this site -- you can see that the edge of the pavement is, actually, quite a ways away from the property line, so ACHD has a much more expansive right of way in here than the road would actually reflect. So, that landscaping will be provided in the -- in the right of way, requiring also part of that license agreement with ACHD that they would require for this -- this paving to be placed in their right way. The police department did make some comments and in looking at this I do believe they were looking at an old plan with the garage still attached to the home. They did make the comment that they were concerned over the lack of windows on the east elevation. The applicant's architect did represent to me that there is three windows on that side of the building and that is what it appears to me as well, so my take is that the police department was looking at the plans with the garage still attached. So, I would say that there are windows along that elevation of the building and they do provide some view of the parking lot. I will mention for the record that we did receive a petition and it should be in your packets as well. It was signed by 26 individuals and I will just briefly read the heading at the top here for the record and it states: Opposition to RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028. We would like it to be noted to the Commissioners that we opposed the request for the rezoning of 934 East 5th Street from R-8 to OT. We want it noted that we oppose the Conditional Use Permit for Meridian Counseling and Wellness Center. We do not want a business increasing traffic and bringing troubled individuals into our residential neighborhood. This is where we live, where are children play, and where we keep our valuables. The requesters do not live here and, therefore, assuming none of the risk that the residents are. There are many more reasons for the objection, but to be brief, we simply oppose RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028. So, I did want to mention that for the record and I think with that I will stand for questions. I think we do have some elevations of the existing home in the presentation here for reference. And with that I will stand for questions. Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 77 of 93 Zaremba: Thank you. Questions from the Commissioners? Seeing none, we are ready for the applicant, please. Ulmer: Hi, my name is Ruth Ulmer and I am with Meridian Counseling and Wellness Center. I am Meridian Counseling and Wellness Center. And my address is 18589 South Cloverdale Road, Kuna. And I agree with everything that was stated, except the east side of the building has four windows, so -- looking out on the parking lot. Zaremba: So much the better. Ulmer: Yeah. Rohm: Would you like to speak to the petition received by -- Zaremba: Have you seen it? Ulmer: No, I have not seen it and I'm very surprised -- very surprised by this. No one has come to me expressing any concerns at all. I have been trying to go about meeting all of the neighbors. I have been in the building since September and haven't, you know, met anybody who has expressed any concerns. So, this is very surprising to me. In terms of more traffic, with the counseling center versus a person's residence, yes, there will probably be increased traffic, so I don't know what to say about that. But I think that that is a reasonable statement to make. In terms of a counseling center, massage therapy place, we deal with everyday people who -- you know, children with ADHD, children who have everyday issues, couples who have marital problems. We don't deal with drug abusers. We don't deal with pedophiles; we don't deal with -- with anything like that. We just deal with everyday people who, you know, need someone to talk to. So, we certainly wouldn't be dealing with high class, you know -- or severely deranged people. So, that is a misconception that many many people have about counseling services. This isn't a detox center or anything like that. So, you know, that's often a misconception that people make, so -- Zaremba: Are there any official levels of counseling centers or licensing that vary, depending on whether you're dealing with drug rehab or -- Ulmer: Well, I choose not to work with those people, just because that's not what my license is and I find -- Zaremba: So, there is some kind of a license? Ulmer: There is -- yeah, there is definitely people who are licensed in doing that and I choose not to work with that group of people and I'm not going to rent to people who see that type of people. You know, I'm going to have other people in my office building and what I want to have is a wellness center. I want people who see children, I want people who see couples, I want people who do massage therapy, you know, on -- sorry, Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 78 of 93 but on wealthy women. I mean that's going to be the clientele that we have is wealthy women who want a massage for two hours. We are going to have a nutritionist who will work there. We are going to have that kind of a people who work in my office building. So, you know, who affords therapists, you know, we cost a hundred dollars to 85 dollars an hour. We are not dealing with people who -- who are, you know drug offenders and sex offenders. And I choose not to rent to people who see pedophiles for a living and I'm not going to choose to rent to people who see drug addicts for a living, so -- Zaremba: Thank you. Ulmer: So, I hope that answers that. Zaremba: Nice clarification. Ulmer: Yes. Zaremba: Okay. Questions from the Commissioners? Newton-Huckabay: You said you have been in there since September, so you have been operating this already and nobody's had a problem before or you have just been -- Ulmer: I purchased it as a home and I have been using it as a home office, so I personally have been there. I'm a child and adolescent therapist; I have been seeing clients there and no one has had any issues. And, again, I have been trying to go out and meet my neighbors and I have not had anybody make any complaints or issue about the increased traffic or about, you know, any clients or any problems. Not at all. And the goal of, you know, this is -- is I believe that I'm trying to increase the value of the neighborhood, you know. You know, I think I'm going to be a good neighbor. Yes, I'm not going to be there all weekend long, but I think that, you know, we are going to be there from 7:00 a.m., to maybe 8:00 p.m. at night. A lot of my therapists are going to be working on Saturdays. We may not be there on Sunday, but we are not going to have barking dogs, we are not going to have parties, we are not going to have loud children playing in the backyard. You know, I think we can be a very good neighbor to the neighborhood, so -- Zaremba: All right. Thank you. Ulmer: You're welcome. Zaremba: Okay. We have Susan Dodds signed up to speak. If you will come forward. please. Dodds: Thank you. I am Susan Dodds. I live at 438 East State Avenue. I live caddy- corner to the questionable property. I live right here. I have lived there for about ten years. I work during the day, but I am there most of the evening and weekends and have not noticed any traffic from her current ~- if she is having current a business there, Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 79 of 93 I have not seen -- seen her over there. I'm sorry. I'm freezing. And I'm full aware of what counseling does. I'm an educator and we have counseling in our schools. I am also raising two small grandchildren and I do worry about the traffic. I do worry about it leaving a family-oriented neighborhood. We are Old Town and many of us have moved there, because it is Old Town and we can walk down to business and we do have families, we have a variety of people living in this neighborhood. Right here we have -- let's see. I'm right here. We have a rental house here. We have another family here. We have a deaf family here that has a child living with them. And we are a family neighborhood. We'd like to keep it a family neighborhood. And we are not against counseling, but we look around Meridian and where it is a business and it is a needed business, we would like to suggest that it go into a business area. There are plenty of open business -- open buildings around our -- excuse me -- our community and so there are places for this business to go and still for the people to be of need and I am representing a group of neighbors that has stated that, yes, we aren't against home business, we are not against people making a living, but we looking at a business coming into a family neighborhood that's going to be open in the evening and on weekends when our kids are out there riding their bikes and playing in the neighborhood. And we would like to keep it a neighborhood as long as we can, even though we do love Old Town Meridian, because that's where many of us choose -- we are a combined group of elderly, middle age, young renters, young people, so -- and we do have home businesses in our neighborhood. We have a beauty shop in our neighborhood. But those people live there. They are there to see their neighbors, to make sure that -- I don't know, just to make sure that the community stays a family- oriented community down in that end. And we are aware that Meridian is growing and Old Town is changing and one of these days we are going to have to change with it. But right now we just would like to keep it a community and a family neighborhood as long as we can. We are proud of it. And we are there and I have never had anybody come to my door and ask about it. Zaremba: Thank you. Commissioners, any questions? All right. thank you. Let's see. No one else has signed up. Anybody else care to testify? Okay. Mrs. Ulmer, you're welcome to come back up again if you have anything to add or comments or -- okay. Staff, any comment? Wilson: No. Moe: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Moe. Moe: Can I get the site plan back up there with the new parking layout? And that's taking access off of 5th? Wilson: That's actually State. State would be to the north. 5th would be to the left. Yeah. State would be up. 5th would be left. Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 80 of 93 Moe: Okay. Zaremba: We are open for discussion or are we ready to close the Public Hearing at least? Rohm: Yeah, I think we are ready to close. Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: I move that we close the Public Hearing on RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Anyopposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Zaremba: Discussion? Newton-Huckabay: I'll say something with Old Town zoning, this is where I personally run into problems, because I am a long time, up until just recently, resident of Old Town and Old Town for me just -- I felt like was going to diminish the value of having a residential neighborhood in Meridian. There are places in town where I think the Old Town zoning lends itself to facilitating people putting businesses in their homes, which is along Pine Street. In this particular area, I -- it is predominately residential, you have two blocks -- two blocks until you hit -- hit businesses that are closer to the main street and I have to tend to agree with the 23 people who signed this and they also have a unique situation in this particular neighborhood that a lot of Old Town doesn't have, in that they have a cul-de-sac and most of the residents in Old Town don't -- you know, they have more of the grid system to deal with. And I -- although I don't think that this type of use is particularly invasive, I would say invade a neighborhood, I tend to agree with the residents that it's not an appropriate time to rezone it for business. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Thank you. Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: I guess the thing that I like about the proposal is that they are actually able to take care of the park and things such as that on site, as opposed to having to weight parking space requirements, because of lack of room and I thank it was kind of nice to actually see one that addresses those issues, that we always are having to overlook as other applications within Old Town come before us, so from my perspective it was refreshing to see some of those things addressed. So, that's kind of my take on this. Moe: Mr. Chairman? Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 81 of 93 Zaremba: Commissioner Moe. Moe: I would somewhat concur with Commissioner Rohm. The only thing I would have -- you know, that would make it much nicer is if, in fact, the access to the property could have been somewhat off of 5th, that way you're getting more traffic coming off probably Pine into 5th, than, you're going to come going down through State, which I think most of the people that signed the petition are living on State Street. So, you are still going to have the traffic coming through there to get into the parking, but I guess I'm going to go back to somewhat of our charge is to review the Comprehensive Plan and the Comprehensive Plan is showing that this area is going into -- is going to be within Old Town and it's going to take facilities like this to extend that, you know, in some of the areas with some different mixed use in the Old Town area like that. So, having said that, I -- I think it's a good fit for the area. Zaremba: We have discussed before that the Comprehensive Plan designation of Old Town and as wide as it spreads, we know there is going to be an extended period of transition as things change. To me, this is a low impact choice, among other choices that could be there. I would jump very quickly if it were two streets farther west, you know, closer to the areas that are already beginning to transition. I think it is what is envisioned in the Comprehensive Plan, which is pretty much where our guide is. These kind of things will transition. Like I say, I wish it were a couple blocks farther west, but it is still within the Old Town area. Newton-Huckabay: I guess that's where I have the problem is what is Old Town supposed to look like when we are done with it, you know? I mean -- and that was the problem with -- with the property that I lived in, if I thought, you know, what's next door to me could go to a hair salon and, then, my house and, then, you know, an accounting office, then, another house and, you know, I -- that's where I -- but I personally struggle with the Old Town zoning for that reason, because I don't -- it has not set aside Old Town residential zones and, in my opinion, this particular State Street is one of those situations where to me that is a perfect example of where you would want an Old Town residential area. Now, I mean that may be -- I mean I may not have a foot to stand on, but that's just how I feel about it. That, you know, there is -- you know, you do have a cul-de-sac area and you have, you know, within walking distance of downtown, I just think it has a lot more potential and highest and best use as an historical -- more historical residential area. Zaremba: Commissioner Borup. Newton-Huckabay: But I haven't got to get on my soap box about how I feel about the Old Town zoning, so -- Zaremba: Well, it's a difficult thing. I mean we -- it's -- and we struggle with all of the mixed use subjects. You know, what's the mix and how close to each other are the Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 82 of 93 mixes and, you know, do we -- even within a zone try and keep the mixes separate or -- or what. Borup: I think I have got, Mr. Chairman, the same concerns as probably everyone expressed. Maybe the only comment I would have -- this is also a -- under a Conditional Use Permit, that does give us some control if there is a concern. If there is any problems with the neighborhood, likewise, the conditional use can be used to address that, so it's not -- Newton-Huckabay: In the future? Borup: Yes. I mean that's where-- Newton-Huckabay: Okay. That's-- Borup: Yes. Only that is -- that is an option within a conditional use, if you don't have -- Zaremba: If it creates a disturbance, the conditional use can be revoked is what you're saying. Borup: Yes. And we can place any additional conditions that, you know, Commission deems fit, if there was any concerns that can be addressed that way. Rohm: So, are you suggesting something like approve and, then, if, in fact, there was opposition to it six months from now, if the neighbors petition yet again, that you would rehear it? Zaremba: It would have to be a proven disturbance. Borup: Right. I mean I'm saying that's an option if it's a legitimate concern, a legitimate complaint here or a legitimate violation, that's what it would need to be. A violation of what they were approved for, I would assume. Newton-Huckabay: I don't really see that this would be a concern. Zaremba: Well, the applicant needs to be confident that if it is recommended by us and approved by the City Council that they have that approval and everybody knows that they are subject to -- you know, if it comes to a disturbance, then, that can change, but I wouldn't make it as general as if it gets approved and, then, the neighbors circulate a petition again and they don't really have any grounds for a disturbance. Borup: No. No. It's got to be -- you know, if it's approved for four office buildings and they are trying to have ten counselors in there and cars are out in the street, you know, something like that, which -- I mean it doesn't look like that's going to be the case, but -- Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 83 of 93 Zaremba: We may have some input-- Borup: -- I mean -- I mean a business like this, I don't know -- I don't know how long a beauty shop takes -- I mean how much turnover they have, but that's -- Newton-Huckabay: Probably more than -- Borup: Would it be? Newton-Huckabay: I would think so. Borup: I mean once an hour for a beauty shop? Zaremba: Mr. Baird, do you have -- Baird: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to point out that if you set certain restrictions as part of your approval of the conditional use, that if they go beyond that, it's merely a code enforcement issue, it doesn't necessarily put it back here in front of you. So, I would encourage you to be as specific as you can about what requirements that you want to see to make this compatible, if that's what you're inclined to do. So, it's very clear what the expectations are and if the operations go outside of that, then, the neighbors have a recourse that they contact from the city. Zaremba: Thank you. Rohm: Well, Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: The applicant has -- has already stated in her testimony that her intent is not to see certain classes of the public as part of their counseling services. Maybe we should just put those down and say not to be seeing pedophiles and -- Newton-Huckabay: You can't do that. Baird: Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, my recommendation would be to limit it in a more positive way, that this will be a family counseling center, as she has discussed it, and that would necessarily, because of the limitations of the license for the family counselor, would you preclude those types of individuals. Rohm: Okay. Let's see. Family counseling service. I like that. That's much better. I didn't -- I don't like that other word anyway. All right. Let's see. Well, there you go. All right. So, where do we put that? Zaremba: Well, I think that addresses what I was trying to discover with my question about the different levels of licensing. If there is a named license that says family Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 84 of 93 counseling center and that means a specific thing, that's what the applicant is asking for and nobody later could change that. Baird: And, Mr. Chair, I would encourage you to get input from the applicant to be specific about what that means. You may want to reopen the public hearing for that, if it goes beyond information that you have got right now. Zaremba: I'm willing to do that, if somebody wants to ask the applicant. We'll reopen the hearing first. Rohm: Mr. Chairman, I move that we reopen hearings RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? The hearing on RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028 are reopened. Moe: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Moe. Moe: I guess another thing I would want to -- when the applicant does come up, I would assume we would want to put some time restrictions as well. Zaremba: Some hour ones? Moe: Yes. Some hour limits on these. Zaremba: Mrs. Ulmer, would you return to the podium, please. Okay. Center spot light. Thank you. Would you give us a more thorough description of apparently -- is your license a family counseling license? Is that what it says? Ulmer: My license is a licensed clinical professional counselor and so I can see children, adolescents, and adults. There is another license in Idaho that is a licensed marriage and family therapist and so they are licensed specifically to see couples and families. I do not possess that license. Zaremba: But you might hire somebody who does. Ulmer: I might hire somebody who does. The type of -- Zaremba: So, those two sound okay to me. Ulmer: The type of -- Zaremba: Those two sound okay to me. What else is there? Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 85 of 93 Ulmer: There is a master's in social work. Social workers do primarily the same type of work that we do, so what I see as clients are children, adolescents, adults. I consider seeing couples, families, again, massage therapist, so that's the type of person that I want to hire. I'm looking at trying to hire -- not hire, but rent my space out to a nutritionist. A nutritionist would see people who are either just heavy and they want to lose weight or maybe somebody with an eating disorder, so that would be the type of clientele that we would see. I'm playing around with the idea of maybe having somebody who is an acupuncturist licensure. I don't know about that. I don't know if they have a lot of equipment or whatever. I don't know. But I want to be a wellness center, so I want to look at, you know, the whole family, a whole person, and see if I can, you know, make sure that they can be well. So, those are the type of people that I'm looking at hiring, either psychologists, therapists, master level social workers, nutritionists, massage therapists, possibly an acupuncturist, but I haven't done any research on that. But those are the type of people that I want to lease my building, those are the types of clients that I want to see. Newton-Huckabay. I think it's probably fair to say that she thought we were talking about a certain market nitch and, you know, you're talking about people -- that's a different marketing altogether when you start talking about people with drug addiction and things like that. You're marketing your -- that doesn't mean that those two don't even jive. Ulmer: Yes. Zaremba: I think our issue is how do we quantify what licenses those are? Or do we want to do that? Newton-Huckabay: I guess I would state from a business standpoint -- I mean a business person is going to find their nitch and that's what they are going to market to and if she -- I mean if that's not your area of expertise and there is -- I mean, then, I would agree with you that there is probably not a lot of money to be made in that, because you're talking about subsidizing health care at that point. Ulmer: Right. Yeah. And, you know, when you look at it like -- I have people calling me everyday, do you take Medicaid. I don't take Medicaid, because Medicaid reimburses me at 50 dollars a session. I don't want to make 50 dollars a session, so I don't do Medicaid. Zaremba: That's after doing 25 dollars worth of paperwork. Ulmer: Exactly. And so, you know, that leaves me out of a whole certain level of clientele, so I'm not taking Medicaid kids, I'm not -- you know, so -- Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 86 of 93 Newton-Huckabay: I guess I would -- I would feel comfortable not putting that -- of course, I'm not going to vote in favor of this, but in all fairness, I would say that making that a recommendation or what I would feel necessary -- Baird: Mr. Chair, after hearing the additional testimony, I have come to the conclusion that it would probably be difficult to craft something that would be specific to exclude a certain class of clientele, so it would be my recommendation that you steer clear of that. Zaremba: Okay. Let me ask a question of staff, if I may. Probably Brad would be the one to answer it. And I think I have asked this question before and gotten an answer, but I just want to clarify. The CUP belongs to Mrs. Ulmer; right? If she ceases -- my concern is if the CUP goes with the property and she moves off someplace and somebody else comes in and says, oh, I can be a counselor, I am going to do drug counseling, but if she ceases to do business, the CUP is gone; is that correct? Hawkins-Clark: Chairman, no, not necessarily. I mean another user who operates a similar use, such as a counseling or wellness or acupuncturist, et cetera, that would substantially meet the same kind of use that you're approving tonight, could potentially use that permit at that address. Zaremba: The key word, though, is the same; right? Hawkins-Clark: Correct. Zaremba: Okay. Hawkins-Clark: Yeah. If-- Zaremba: It couldn't be more -- Hawkins-Clark: If another use in the future were to come in, we would ask for a very detailed description of what that use is. We would pull out this permit, if you were to approve it, and compare the two -- Zaremba: It couldn't get more intense, though -- more intense counseling, a higher level of counseling with drug addicts and so forth? Hawkins-Clark: Right. I mean I agree with the attorney, I mean those are tough things to enforce, I mean, unless you -- you know, you can, like a day care, I mean, require the applicant to, you know, acquire the license and, then, obviously, the state -- in this case I'm assuming a state agency, would be the jurisdiction that is watching over that licensee and, you know, we wouldn't get involved in that side of it. Baird: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, if I could add onto that, what you're really looking at is secondary effects of the use and the effects that they are going to have on the neighboring properties, rather than identifying, you know, we don't want Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 87 of 93 orange people or we don't want purple people, it's -- if purple people have a negative effect on the neighbors that you can quantify, then, you can somehow, you know, put a condition and regulate that, but, again, I want to encourage you, after listening to the specifics, to steer clear over any level of counseling, because what you're looking at is how many trips per day, how many cars in and out, you know, those are the types of things that staff would have the ability to look at if there was a change in the ownership and a change of use, as to what's required to come back to you for a new approval. Borup: Mr. Chairman, this Commission -- this Commission in the past has made recommendations to tie the CUP to a specific individual. We have done that before. Zaremba: That would be comfortable for me. Ulmer: I don't plan on going anywhere. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: I move to-- Newton-Huckabay: Oh, what about the hours of operation? Moe: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Would we say 8:00 o'clock? Ulmer: With my renters, you know, when I rent my office space out, you know, therapists -- therapists are like herding cats, you know, they are very independent folks. We are very independent folks and so we might have some therapists who want to see a client before they go to work and so we might have a therapist who wants to make a 7:00 a.m. appointment or an 8:00 a.m., appointment -- I certainly don't make those kind of appointments. And, then, there are going to be therapists who want to see 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. appointments. So, you know, when I'm going to rent out the office space, it's going to be kind of up to them, you know, when they use the building, and that kind of thing. So, I can't imagine anything before 7:00 a.m. I can't imagine anything after -- when they leave the building at 9:00 p.m., you know, I can't imagine anything like that. I don't think too many therapists want to work on Saturdays, but there might be sometimes that they do, so -- Rohm: Are those good hours, then, 7:00 to 9:00? Newton-Huckabay: What if we just use the standard we have been using? Rohm: 6:00 to 10:00? Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16,2005 Page 88 of 93 Newton-Huckabay: Yeah. Ulmer: I can't imagine anything going earlier or later than that. I mean, you know, therapists are supposed to have good boundaries, so -- Zaremba: Yeah. It doesn't mean it has to be there 6:00 to 10:00. That's an outer limit. Ulmer: Yeah. Zaremba: But you would be comfortable with having hours? Ulmer: Yeah. Yeah. Zaremba: All right. Thank you very much. Ulmer: You're very welcome. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: I move that we re-close public hearings RZ 05-007 and CUP 05-028. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Anyopposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm, are you up? Rohm: I think so. The time issue was only on the CUP, not on the rezone? Zaremba: Correct. Rohm: Okay. Mr. Chairman, I move that we forward on to City Council recommending approval of RZ 05-007, to include all staff comments for the hearing date June 16th, 2005, to encompass the transmittal date of June 9th, 2005. End of motion. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Newton-Huckabay: Opposed. Meridian Planning & Zoning June 16, 2005 Page 89 of 93 Zaremba: We have four ayes and one opposed. That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE NAY. Rohm: Okay. Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Rohm. Rohm: I move that we forward onto City Council recommending approval of CUP 05- 028, to include all staff comments for the hearing date June 16th, 2005, and the transmittal date -- transmittal date of June 9th, 2005, with one change, that we include in hours of operation maximum of 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. daily. Moe: Are you going to need her -- Zaremba: I would suggest that you tie the Cup to the owners or the -- Rohm: Oh. Oh. Yes. And this Conditional Use Permit be only to the applicant that's before us. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Newton-Huckabay: Opposed. Zaremba: We have four ayes and one opposed. That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE NAY. Item 15: Public Hearing: PP 05~022 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 4 building lots and 1 common lot on 1.74 acres in a L-Q zone for Woodpenn Subdivision by Pennwood III, LLC - 429 SW 5th Avenue: Item 16: Public Hearing: CUP 05-030 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a commercial Planned Development on 1.74 acres in a L-O zone for Woodpenn Subdivision by Pennwood III, LLC - 429 SW 5th Avenue: Zaremba: Thank you. We will move onto Items 15 and 16. I will open the Public Hearing for PP 05-022 and CUP 05-030, related Woodpenn Subdivision at 429 Southwest 5th Avenue and we will begin with the staff report. Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. This application is for Woodpenn Subdivision. It's a preliminary plat for four building lots and one building -- and one common lot on 1.74 acres in an L-O zone and also for a Conditional Use Permit approval for reductions to the minimum requirements for street frontage in the L-