HomeMy WebLinkAbout2019-12-03 Regular Meeting MinutesMeridian City Council December 3, 2019.
A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:20 p.m., Tuesday,
December 3, 2019, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Tammy de Weerd, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Genesis Milam, Ty
Palmer, Anne Little Roberts and Treg Bernt.
Also Present: Chris Johnson, Bill Nary, Bill Parsons, Clint Dolsby, Jeff Lavey, Kenny
Bowers and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll Call.
A. Meridian City Council
X__ Anne Little Roberts X_ _ Joe Borton
X__ Ty Palmer X__ Treg Bernt
_ X___Genesis Milam _X___Lucas Cavener
__X__ Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: Okay. Good evening. Thank you so much for letting us have a few minutes
to transition between our workshop and our regular meeting. Welcome to our Meridian
City Council. For the record it is Tuesday, December 3rd. It is 6:20. We will start with
roll call attendance, Mr. Clerk.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is the Pledge of Allegiance. If you will arise and join us in the
pledge to our flag.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation by Michael Pearson of 7th Day Adventist
Church
De Weerd: Okay. Item No. 3 is our community invocation. Tonight we will be led by
Pastor Michael Pearson. Pastor Pearson is with the Seven th-Day Adventist Church and
I would like to welcome you, Pastor Michael, and invite those to join us in the community
invocation or take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection.
Pearson: Thank you. We invite you all to Journey to Bethlehem next weekend.
De Weerd: Thank you. And it's always very well prepared and it's a collaboration
amongst --
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Pearson: That's right.
De Weerd: -- the faith community. Thank you again for that gift to our community.
Pearson: It's not property taxes is why I'm not shaving. Eternal Father, the Ancient of
Days, we want to thank you that we have a flag that we can pledge allegiance to , because
you have given us a country that we can be proud to be citizens of and during this season
that begins with the remembrance of Christmas and the New Year, I pray that you will
give each one of us citizens of Meridian and leaders of Meridian the grace to extend the
peace which the Prince of Peace offers to us. May we extend it to each other. Ma y this
be a season of reconciliation within families and between different segments of the
community and now specifically for tonight, for those who will be shortly retiring from
service, as Mayor and City Councilors, for those who will be continuing, we thank you for
them. We ask that your grace and your strength will be theirs, that you will give them
wisdom tonight in the decisions that they need to make and may we be drawn together in
peace as a community. I asked this in the name of our Savior, amen.
Item 4: Adoption of Agenda
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Item 4 is adoption of the agenda.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Item 10-I -- or, excuse me, 10-A, that ordinance can be removed from the agenda.
With that one change I move we adopt the amended agenda.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as amended. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Announcements
De Weerd: Under five, announcements, we are kicking off our Christmas season this
weekend, starting Friday night with our parade -- our holiday lights parade goes down
Main Street. We start with the Grinch -- How The Grinch Stole Christmas. It's two
showings. One starts at 5:30. The other at 6:00. And, then, we kick off the parade with
a fun run and, then, the parade starts and it's always -- every year it's gotten better. So,
we would love to see you all out supporting all of those entries in our parade and -- and
just get into the Christmas spirit with us. The next day we do have our -- the 14th we do
have our family friendly winterfest event that is at the Boys and Girls Club. The Meridian
Symphony plays on this coming Saturday. And so there is all kinds of events. There is a
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calendar on our website. Please take a look at that and join us in the Christmas festivities.
Council, any other items under announcements?
Item 6: Proclamation
A. Giving Tuesday
De Weerd: Okay. I am going to move to the -- to the podium and read a proclamation
about Giving Tuesday. So, just a little bit about Giving Tuesday. This request was
received from Jessica Ewing with the Meridian Canine Rescue and one of the things that
I think that Jessica noted in this request is our community is -- is very giving. The
philanthropy in this community is huge and that support of the nonprofits is support and
ours as that safety net for our community is huge, from feeding our -- the hungry, from
taking care of our pets, from taking care of those in a time of crisis. Those nonprofits step
up and fill that gap in a big way and we are very fortunate and blessed to live in a
community that gives generously. And today is Giving Tuesday. I'm going to ask our
volunteers from the Meridian Rescue -- Canine Rescue organization to come up and join
me as I read this. We have a number of nonprofits in our community and I think it's
important to note that the Meridian Canine Rescue they are an adoption program and
they last year found homes for more than 300 jobs -- or dogs. Jobs.
Hayward: They are both.
De Weerd: And they are a job. Maybe that was the -- the slip I had. And they are enlisting
the help of local dog owners to support their cause and -- and it's a great one. This is a
time of year that we need to remember our pets, especially as the weather gets cold and
we all get wrapped up in the holidays. So, with that whereas Giving Tuesday launched in
the U.S. in 2012 and was established as a National Day of Giving on the first Tuesday
following Thanksgiving to kick off the charitable season and whereas Giving Tuesday is
a day where citizens work together to share commitments, rally my favorite causes, build
a stronger community and think about others and whereas it is fitting and proper on Giving
Tuesday and on every day to recognize the tremendous impact of compassion and
contribution in the City of Meridian and whereas Giving Tuesday is a celebration of
philanthropy, volunteerism and community service where people give whatever they are
able, whether it's funds or time and whereas this year many Meridian organizations are
coming together to participate in this global day of giving. Therefore, I, Mayor Tammy de
Weerd, do hereby proclaim December 3rd, 2019, to be Giving Tuesday in the City of
Meridian and encourage all citizens to join together to give back to community in any way
that is personally meaningful and I would be honored to turn this over to our Meridian
Canine Rescue Group with our -- our thanks for bringing this awareness up on this day
and ask you to say a few words about the organization.
Hayward: Thank you so much. I'm Hillary.
Groenhof: I'm Jenna.
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Hayward: And we are proud to work at MCR. It's a great organization, because every
dollar that people give goes towards the dogs. We have -- it's a whole -- it's a really tiny
organization, but we do so much with the help of our volunteers and our really passionate
staff. We like to treat all the dogs as individuals. They all get individual training,
enrichment, and it's just an awesome place to work and to go .
Groenhof: And we hope we can keep doing more and more, not only for the local
community here, but for all over. So, if you guys have it in your hearts this giving season,
make a donation to the Meridian Canine Rescue.
Hayward: The dogs would really appreciate it, especially Russell. He's still available for
adoption. Thank you so much.
Item 7: Future Meeting Topics - Public Forum (Up to 30 Minutes Maximum)
De Weerd: I should have just stayed down there and -- and participated in MYAC's
update. So, our next item -- oh, I'm sorry. You are not the next item, but you are important.
Okay. Item 7. Future meeting topics.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there were --
De Weerd: Any sign-ups?
Johnson: -- there were several sign-ups. They are all referencing something later on
tonight's agenda.
Item 8: Community Items/Presentations
A. Mayor's Youth Advisory Council Update
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Now, Abby, Tyson, come on up. Item 8-A is our update
from the Mayor's Youth Advisory Council.
Bernt: Hey there, Tyson. How are you doing, buddy.
Hutchinson: Thank you, Madam Mayor and City Council. My name is Abby Hutchinson
and I'm vice-chair of MYAC.
Dunn: I'm Tyson Dunn, I'm the Meridian High School ambassador for MYAC. So, this
year we participated in Rake Up Meridian and we were able to go and serve for three
hours in our community. We visited two locations and we had 20 people from MYAC in
total show up and it was a blast. We were able to help people rake up their yards and
serve them in any ways they needed. And we also had our sticker shock campaign. So,
with this we worked with the Meridian Anti-Drug Coalition and we were able to place 8,200
stickers on bags that will be distributed around liquor stores in our area around the
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holidays and these stickers are letting people know that distributing alcohol to minors in
Idaho -- in Idaho is a crime and just as a friendly reminder around the holidays.
Hutchinson: And, then, for our community service subcommittee we have been working
on Operation Gratitude for the past two meetings. So, what we have been doing is we
have been making paracord bracelets and thank you notes for Americans who serve over
the holidays. We did this with Operation Gratitude and they have sent out almost 2.5
million care packages since 2003. So, that's what we have been doing for the past two
meetings with that. And, then, recently we have been planning our Point of Hope run. It's
a mental health awareness run. We have done this in the past as a suicide prevention
run, but we changed it to mental health awareness run this year to be more inclusive and
to recognize all of the mental health issues and support our community.
Dunn: Then this next upcoming Monday, December 9th, we have our annual MYAC
Christmas party for members and alumni. Here we will be playing some games and we
will be having a sock drive as well and we will be having a great time in celebrating the
holiday season.
Hutchinson: Are there any questions?
De Weerd: And can you give a little background beyond the sock drive and why you are
doing that?
Dunn: Go ahead.
Hutchinson: So, we have done the sock drive in the past and I know one of our members
actually brought this to us. It was -- I believe Girl Scouts were doing it last year, so they
brought that to our attention and we really enjoyed it this past year, so we decided to do
a gift exchange this year. Instead of people bringing gifts , they are going to bring socks,
so we can exchange those and, then, donate them afterwards, so we can have more of
a turnout.
De Weerd: That's awesome. And the alumni group -- this is the first kickoff to reengage
the alumni who have at one time been involved with MYAC and get them reengaged. Ken
Corder has come back and said why he wants to be an alumni. He was too old to be a
MYACer, but Ken and I will -- will take on the alumni group and -- and try and reengage
them and they can act as mentors to our MYAC members that are currently serving. So,
we are excited for that. I know we have several excited alumni to come in and reengage.
So, any questions from Council for our MYACers?
Bernt: Good job.
De Weerd: Yeah. You guys are awesome. We continue to be amazed by what you do .
Next month they will update you on what their legislative priority is for the year. It's -- they
just voted on it yesterday, but it's just too early to -- to really talk about it, but that will be
on the agenda next -- next month. Thank you so much. Appreciate you being here.
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Thank you for that. So cool to have our youth engaged in their community, making it a
better place for -- for all.
Item 9: Action Items
A. Final Plat for Stapleton Subdivision No. 1 (H-2019-0117) by C4
Land, LLC, Located at 4435 S. Meridian Rd.
De Weerd: Item 9-A under Action Items. First up is final plat for H-2019-0117. Bill.
Parsons: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Won't go into the final plat
too much. I just want to let the Council and Mayor know they concur with staff. We just
received the applicant's response to the staff report late. The final plat is consistent with
the approved preliminary plat and so we ask that you approve this project as it is, again,
consistent with the preliminary plat, we just didn't receive the comments within the time
to keep it on the Consent Agenda, so if the Council and Mayor want me to go into the
specifics of the development I'm happy to , but if you are happy with just staff's
concurrence with the applicant, we will move on to the next item.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions on this item?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: If not do I have a motion? Yes, Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I move that we approve H-2019-0017.
Cavener: 011 --
Milam: 0117. What --
De Weerd: Okay. Well, I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-A.
Milam: 9-A. 9-A. If there is no discussion, Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. Public Hearing for Proposed Ordinance 19-1856: An Ordinance
Amending Meridian City Code 6-2-8(D) and (G) to Increase Fine
Amounts Related to Off-Leash Dogs
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De Weerd: Item 9-B is a public hearing for proposed Ordinance 19-1856. This ordinance
would amend Meridian City Code to increase the fine amounts related to off leash dogs
and this is an ordinance change proposed by Council Member Milam. Mrs. Milam, do
you have any comments?
Milam: Madam Mayor, we have talked about this. This is probably at least our third
meeting on this topic, maybe fourth, and we are getting a lot of complaints. I was getting
a lot of complaints seeing -- reading a lot of things on NextDoor regarding people being
attacked or chased by -- people with off leash dogs or just simply afraid of them, because
they have children with them or they are elderly and so we brought this forward and,
basically, what we want to change the fees -- currently they are 25 dollars for a first
offense, 50 dollars for a second offense, one hundred dollars for a third offense and we
want to change them to 100 dollars, 200 and 300 dollars. So, we want to have this public
hearing so that we can get the input from our citizens.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mrs. Milam. This is a public hearing. Is there any sign-ins, Mr.
Clerk?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, two people signed into this topic, as well as one on the public
forum. The first was Jack Long.
De Weerd: Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your name and address for
the record.
Long: My name is Jack Long. I have been a resident of Meridian for about 30 years.
Formerly on the north side of Eagle Road, now I'm on the south side of Eagle Road. 2893
East Green Canyon.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Long: And I'm a dog owner. I found out about the proposal to increase the fines by
accident, by reading, of all things, public media nationwide. Don't know how you got your
word out that far, but I know about it. Just one or two items briefly. I'm quite opposed to
it for a number of reasons. I walk my dog in and around my subdivision and through
Harris Park around the high school and the vacant lots that are there. I do not recall an
occasion walking my dog where one or more individuals have had their dog off leash,
throwing a ball through the field, retrieving it and so forth. Many of them are seniors.
Some of the individuals -- as I understand it, the leash law is a six foot restraint of some
kind to be coupled to the dog. Most everyone has leashes now that go out 20, 30 feet.
So, I just wanted to propose an alternative solution and I sent out an e-mail. I tried to get
everybody who was on the Council a copy of the e-mail, which lists the benefits of a radio
controlled device, an e-collar or whatever you want to call it, for management and dog
obedience. I have had one on my dog for a long time. I have had it on dogs that I raised
here in Meridian, primarily hunting dogs, but I have seen them used on other dogs as
well. In my opinion anyone who owns a pit bull should be required to have one . If it's
seen in public it should have an e-collar on it. That would resolve a lot of the issues that
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we have with dogs attacking -- you know, biting and, then, you know, what were the
conditions that brought forth the biting. When I lived on the north side of the freeway I
raised dogs and I had a female who had given birth to puppies and one of our neighbor
kids came up on rollerblades right into my garage, turned around and went out. The dog
chased her out and grabbed her on the ankle and , you know, put a hole in the boot. No
blood. But I'm just saying what are the circumstances under which all of these complaints
come about. My personal viewpoint -- and I think the viewpoint of many professionals is
that with a restraining device that really gets the dog to obey now, a lot of these, if not
most of them, would be resolved. So, I would like to just bring it before the Council. I did
-- about a year ago there was some interest from the Council Member -- I can't -- I
apologize, but I can't remember who I talked to -- he said, well, give us a professional to
come forth and make a presentation. There were a couple that were willing, but not able
to get the time. So, you might want to put that in the hopper for something to consider,
as opposed to burdening senior citizens with more taxes. Thank you so much. I
appreciate the Council.
De Weerd: Thank you, sir. Any questions from Council?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Not really a question or a comment, but -- well, maybe this would be an after topic.
Yeah. I guess we can discuss it after.
De Weerd: Okay.
Milam: Sorry.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, the last sign-in is John Padden.
De Weerd: John, thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your name and
address for the record.
Padden: Sure. My name is John Padden. P-a-d-d-e-n. I live on 2605 West Leonard
Street.
De Weerd: Thank you. Mr. Padden, will you pull that a little bit closer to you. Thank you.
Padden: Hi. My message really is not so much for the Council, but it's to people like Jack
and I strongly support stronger penalties for off leash dogs and, you know, there is -- there
is a highly nuanced dance that people don't understand and I'm sure Jack is a wonderful
neighbor, he is a wonderful guy. You may have very well behaved dogs, but my
experience is -- and I do have two dogs that may have some Meloster genes, pit bulls as
everybody likes to call them. They are fairly well behaved. They are always on leash.
But what people don't understand is when an off leash dog, no matter how well behaved,
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comes up to leashed dogs, the leashed dog understands he is at a severe disadvantage
and humans cannot always pick up these -- these highly nuanced cues, but the dogs
understand it and the way I liken it is to -- excuse me -- is if you are handcuffed and you
are thrown into a party and people you do not know are coming up to you and getting in
your face, you are going to be very uncomfortable and you are going to react, so -- and I
think -- I have had -- I have had many experiences where the nicest guys with the
friendliest dogs, Labrador retrievers, just let their dog off leash, come right up to my dogs,
what am I going to do. I step off to the side of the path , I do everything to avoid, you
know, the situation that becomes impossible, because if an owner doesn't have a six foot
lead on his dog, he has no controller over the dog and electronic devices are wonderful
to talk about, but, you know, that's -- that's it. It's really not about how great your dog is,
it's -- to coexist humans and dogs have to be under control. Some people see a dog off
leash and they become, you know, terribly frightened. My sisters, they will not come into
my house because I have dogs, and I understand it. I have a handyman who -- who had
a terrible experience when he was a child. He is a big burly guy, he trembles at the sight
of a little dog. But, in any case, that's -- that's really about it. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you so much.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, the last person wishing -- they wish to testify. Sorry. That was
the last person indicating they wished to testify.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who wishes to provide
testimony? Okay. Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: The ordinance for action is near the end of our agenda. The -- the change, which
I thought made some sense from Mrs. Milam, was this isn't creating any new restriction
or any new limitation that didn't already exist , it was a minor adjustment in a fine amount
trying to emphasize the importance on compliance with the existing rules that we have
had for many years here is your dogs need to be on a leash. Among some of the public
comment that we got in writing that I thought was -- was good for consideration and I think
Mrs. Milam referenced it also -- was there are members of our senior community who
have friendly dogs, but when these dogs nudge or jump on them with no ill harm or intent,
it scares them at least. It can knock them down and it -- it makes many people just
reluctant to go for a walk on the sidewalk because a friendly dog can jump on you and
maybe that's a remote situation, but it's one that's real for some people in our community.
So, I commend Mrs. Milam for bringing this forward, just to spark the emphasis on
compliance with these existing rules.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
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Milam: And I just wanted to mention, you know, that the electronic collar, it may be
something for the future Council to consider. Tonight what we are trying to do is not touch
the ordinance, but it doesn't mean that it can't be amended. W hen this ordinance was --
drafted was made it probably -- that maybe there wasn't the technology so easily available
to -- to residents to be able to -- to get their electronic callers and if it's a great way to
control your animal and keep them from attacking people, then, it might be something to
consider adding as an allowable type of leash. Obviously not the only allowable kind,
because we can't all afford that, but as an allowable type of enforcement for dogs, so
since I won't be around I'm just throwing that out there for you guys and a future council
to consider. Thank you.
De Weerd: Any further discussion by Council? Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: As one that uses both a leash and an e-collar, I would proceed with caution
on that and get some expert advice, because my dog is fairly well trained, but he is two
years old and there is still things that he can come in contact with that he doesn't know
how to react to and will react and whether I have got the e-collar on and zap him or not.
So, I would proceed with caution, because there is dogs out there, especially if they
perceive their master is in trouble, will take matters into their own hands if you don't have
a way to physically control them.
De Weerd: Okay. Well, I -- as mentioned, the ordinance will be read under ten, but at
this point, if there is no further information needed -- Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Just one last comment. I -- I understand the intent behind increasing the fines for
-- I guess, what, the last week or so I have been pondering this a little bit and I would -- I
think our communications department -- Shandy does a great job with -- with messaging
and informing the public of the different policy issues that will be changing or that have
changed or will change in our community and this -- this -- this certainly is one. Before
-- before I -- before -- my opinion, before we raise fines I would like to maybe do some
public engagement to make -- to see if that helps out and also clarification on the -- on
the amount, because in -- in the work in -- in the information that we were provided in our
packet it was five hundred dollars, up to a thousand. So, I just wanted to clarify the
difference between the numbers that was written in our packet , as opposed to what's
been talked about tonight. Because that's a big difference.
De Weerd: Well, then, this would be a bargain, so --
Milam: It's on sale.
De Weerd: If you listed it that much and -- and you didn't get people showing up, then, a
hundred, to two hundred to three hundred is -- is not as severe. Mr. Nary.
Nary: No. I was just going to say, Madam Mayor, the ordinance that was published shows
the amendment proposes 100, 200, and 300.
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De Weerd: Okay. Anything further? Well, Council, you can continue this, you can close
the public hearing -- what is your desire here?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Move we close the public hearing for the proposed ordinance of 19-1856.
Palmer: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-B. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
C. Public Comment Regarding Draft Ordinance 19-1852:
Prohibited Parking
De Weerd: Item 9-C is a public comment regarding a draft ordinance, 19-1852, and this
ordinance change was -- and discussion -- related discussion was being proposed by
Council Member Cavener. If you would like to kick this off.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, similar to the previous item that was before Council. We have
had this thing before -- I think this is the third time. The goal of tonight's meeting was to
hear from the public for those that are in attendance and maybe aren't familiar. Currently
in Meridian it is against the law to park a trailer or an RV in your driveway. It is allowable
on public streets for three days. Myself, a member of code enforcement, some other
stakeholders got together, discussed the idea, didn't come up with a clear consensus.
Came back to the body, provided a recommendation, which is to allow you to park these
vehicles or these trailers on your driveway for up to three days. I also thought it was great
to hear from the public before we render a decision to either move forward or to move on.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Cavener. Mr. Clerk, any signed up to provide comments?
Johnson: Yes, Madam Mayor. Four people signed in. Two wished to testify. First is
Renee Hansen.
De Weerd: Good evening, Renee. Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state
your name and address for the record.
Hansen: Good evening. My name is Renee Hansen. I live at 1435 East Tuttle Street in
Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
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Hansen: I have been president of the HOA for five years now and it's a consensus that
we don't want this to pass, because we have already had experience with it. Most of the
people that -- in our neighborhood anyway that are wanting to park their RVs in the
driveways -- the RVs are too long and they block the sidewalks. So , that's one major
concern we have. We also have several homes that are not part of the HOA, so we
wouldn't -- in our community and one of them in particular does an Airbnb on the
weekends, so on the weekends RVs show up and park in the driveway or on the street
and that's another issue that we have with moving forward with allowing people to park in
their driveways. I'm not exactly sure how this does affect HOA rules at the time -- at this
time. I get different answers from different people. So, I know I have to go back directly
to the source. But those are two of our major concerns at -- this evening anyway, that we
would not like to see people allowed to park RVs in their driveway. Or trailers.
De Weerd: I guess I would just say that we enforce City Code and the HOA, if it's different
than city code, the HOA enforces their own CC&Rs. Would that be a correct statement,
Mr. Nary?
Nary: Yes, Madam Mayor.
De Weerd: Just didn't want to speak as a -- I practice --
Hansen: So, the CC&Rs would take precedence over the city.
De Weerd: -- as attorney only when I sit up here. Pardon?
Hansen: So, the CC&Rs I would take precedent over the city, so they can't say whether
city allows this.
De Weerd: It would be a civil matter between you, the neighbor, and that generally is --
is resolved by the HOA or it goes to court. But we don't get involved.
Hansen: And that's why we don't want to -- that's a long path --
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
Hansen: -- to take it to court when you can prevent it to begin with.
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: But with regard to our concern about blocking sidewalks, this would still -- it
would still be illegal to park in a driveway in a manner that would -- that would be blocking
a sidewalk.
De Weerd: Because that's an ADA thing.
Hansen: Right.
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Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Appreciate you representing an HOA. It's a really hard job. I always appreciate
when folks that represent a homeowners association come before us. If I'm
understanding you correctly, then, your -- your neighborhood would rather these vehicles
park on the street than in the driveway.
Hansen: We don't want to encourage them to park anywhere in the neighborhood. We
do have our rules where -- because the city allows them to park on the street up to three
days, as an HOA we don't, but you guys do. So, they get three days on the street. Right
now they don't get anything in the driveway.
Cavener: Sure. So, Madam Mayor, then, a question for -- Mr. Nary, I know we are diving
into -- deep into HOA civics lessons. In this particular scenario, if a -- somebody parks
an RV on the driveway, it's incumbent upon the HOA to enforce their own rules , not the
city, until it's been after three days.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, that's correct. So, the city wouldn't take
any enforcement action outside of that three days. Yes.
Hansen: I guess my comment to that is the city has more resources and are better
capable of enforcing the three day rule. For HOAs it's going to be -- start to be chaos.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next as John Padden.
De Weerd: Good evening.
Padden: My name is John Padden. I live at 260 --
De Weerd: John, can you pull that up. Bring it close. Yeah.
Padden: My name is John Padden. I live at 2605 West Leonard Street.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Padden: You know, this -- I wish I had read up on this -- this ordinance a little bit more
before I got here, but I'm -- I'm in support of anything that will keep RVs and trailers off
the streets, off the lawns, off the yards, you know, the driveways. It's -- in my
neighborhood, you know, it doesn't seem to matter if your fines are five dollars for the first
offense or a thousand dollars, if there is going to be no enforcement and my experience
is it's been like whack a mole. I will call the enforcement officer, he may or may not come
out for a week, you know, he may not get back to me about, you know, what happened
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or at best he -- he goes on and knocks on the door, maybe tries to cajole the -- the violator.
I have yet to see a ticket issued. It's terribly frustrating. I mean there are contractors'
trailers, RVs, weeks at a time, months, permanently parked on the street. So, I don't
know what needs to be done, but it's an absolute eyesore. It's a hazard, especially at
intersections, because of -- you know, the visibility concerns and -- and the way traffic just
runs through our neighborhood and doesn't stop at stop signs and, you know, they can't
see what's around the corner. And, again, I mean I'm all for increased fines and if you
are going to try to determine what a decent fine is or what an appropriate fine is , maybe
start with monthly costs for storage at local storage facilities. They run 65 dollars to 130
dollars a month and if -- if I have an RV, I'm going to park it on the street and if I get a 25
dollar fine, so what, you know. It will just -- maybe another few months another neighbor
will get angry -- I can prolong it and, you know, what will be my monthly or yearly cost -- I
don't know. You have to -- you have to make the -- you have to make a serious deterrent.
Thanks for your time.
De Weerd: Thank you. And maybe that's another consideration for the next City Council
looking at -- at fines if our code enforcement manager there is -- is looking at that, so
there you have it. It was a great recommendation, though. It makes a lot of sense. Okay.
Mr. Clerk.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, those were the only two indicating they wished to testify.
De Weerd: Thank you. Is there any citizen who would like to provide -- yes, ma'am.
Thank you for joining us. We appreciate that. If you will, please, state your name and
address for the record.
Pitzer: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Patty Pitzer. 2703 East Wainwright Drive in Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you, Patty.
Pitzer: Council Members, I am opposed to the three day -- even three days is too long to
have RVs sitting on the street. Nowadays with the subdivisions going in, 27 feet is getting
to be our average residential street size. An average RV is nine feet wide. If you have a
car parked on the other side of the street that's seven feet wide, that leaves you 11 feet
for the cars to go through. It's just -- RVs don't need to be on the street.
De Weerd: Thank you. The ordinance proposed change is about parking them in the
driveway.
Pitzer: Oh. Well, then, I don't care if they are in the driveway.
De Weerd: That's all right. Would you prefer them in the driveway?
Pitzer: Yeah. Well, I mean as long as they don't extend out, but I don't think that they
should be there forever. I think you have storage fees, I think you have many ordinance
-- not ordinances, but HOAs say they have to be kept behind a fence. There is like lessons
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for those HOAs. I hope that they follow through with -- with whatever the penalties are.
So, sorry, I misunderstood.
De Weerd: That is all right. We love hearing comment irregardless.
Pitzer: Thank you for having me.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: I think her comments were useful anyway, because we learned that she does
not want them on the street. I think that it's important we re-emphasize that it's not all just
about, you know, giant Class A RVs. This goes all the way down to you can't put a
motorcycle trailer in your driveway. You can't put a utility trail er. You can't have it there
for five minutes when you are moving to bring furniture in your house . It would have to
be on the street. Obviously, we are not going around writing tickets for people that are
actively moving things in and out of the house, but it's against the law and this would
provide a reasonable opportunity to utilize tools that many Idahoans have on their own
property.
De Weerd: Any others wishing to testify? Yes, sir.
Bosco: Good evening.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you. If you will, please, state your name and address
for the record.
Bosco: Greg Bosco. 207 West Spicewood Drive, Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Bosco: I had a personal experience with -- dealing with HOAs and everything about this.
What had happened is the HOA allowed us to have our RV in there and we have plenty
of room, not blocking anything and -- and, then, finally, called the city. The city came and
said that we had to move it or put it behind a n enclosed fenced area, which is -- as I
understand. So, you know, I thought it was kind of like a federal and state laws where it
could be a little bit more restrictive -- the HOAs could be a little bit more restrictive. So --
anyway. So, since it was that, I had to put that in a -- into storage and -- but it wasn't in
the way, it wasn't blocking anything. So, I think we should be allowed to have RVs, as
long as it's not blocking -- I understand blocking a sidewalk or something like that , but --
but if it fits in your driveway -- if it's a -- if it's a pop up trailer, if it's whatever you have -- I
mean not something huge where it's hanging over a sidewalk, but I think along with what
you said, you know, being allowed to have something like that on your property without
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neighbors and everybody calling about that. So , I think it should be allowed, as long as
it's not impeding on somebody else's -- or the public walkway.
De Weerd: Thank you so much.
Bosco: Thank you.
De Weerd: Any further testimony? Hey, Rich, do you have comments?
Everett: I do. Thank you. Good evening, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Last
time I was before you I was given some questions that I couldn't answer and I apologize
for that. So, I'm back here to answer them now and the question that was most
resounding was from Councilman Cavener about some statistics as far as number of
these type of complaints that my folks have investigated. So , for this year, up until
October 31st -- so, the first ten months of this year, are numbers -- we responded to or
were made aware of over 190 violations of the section we are talking about, Uniform --
Unified Development Code 11 -3-C4 and those are the parking standards we are talking
about in the driveway. So, over 190 of them were investigated by my folks and there were
only three that we weren't able to get compliance on. We were able to move forward with
our educational campaign and inform folks on what the current law was -- or is and get
them to come into compliance. So, a lot of them -- only those three that were sent off for
review by -- by the city prosecutor. And, then, the other direction that I was given was to
come with a recommendation -- a staff recommendation on it and the police department's
recommendation on this is to not amend the ordinance as proposed or to just eliminate
the requirements, because the amendment makes it impossible for us to enforce. So, it
will be a law on the books that we just couldn't move forward with enforcing .
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any questions for Rich? Or those in the audience which is in
charge of our code enforcement.
Bernt: Madam Mayor, I have a question.
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Hey, Rich, how are you doing, man. Question for you. Out of those 190 that you
went out and looked at with your -- with your code enforcement officers, how -- give like
a breakdown regard to how many of those were in HOA subdivisions versus not.
Everett: I don't know. We don't -- we don't track whether or not a property is part of an
HOA or if they are required to fall into the CC&Rs.
De Weerd: Okay. Any further questions? Okay.
Everett: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Chief, any -- any desire to weigh in?
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Lavey: Madam Mayor -- Madam Mayor, Council, I think Richard pretty much covered it.
The enforcement is -- would be absolutely crazy for us and we can't enter onto private
property to enforce that. So, putting a three day rule in there is -- is a moot point. So,
either allow them to park in a driveway or not. If you are going to mess with the law, then,
you need to just eliminate it completely and let the HOAs who have HOAs enforce it. The
clarification that the one lady was asking, the answer is yes. That's the simple answer.
An HOA can be more restrictive. But it falls on them to, then, enforce it and what we find
is some HOAs are really good at enforcing it and, then, some don't want to take on that
burden, because if the person does not comply, it does revolve -- or resolve into district
court and some HOAs don't want to do that or don't have the resources to do that. So ,
they can be more restrictive, but the burden falls on them to enforce it, not the city, and I
guess that's all I have and will answer any questions that Council has.
De Weerd: Thank you, chief. Council, any questions for Chief Lavey? Okay.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, one other consideration -- and Rich raised
that and I don't recall that it was much of the discussion. What you have on your agenda
tonight is the parking requirements that the police enforce, but what also -- if you are
wanting to desire -- allow recreational vehicles and that type onto driveways, which are
considered to be the front yard setback, you have to change the UDC as well, because
the UDC standards is what code enforcement addresses and that's what Rich is talking
about. So, part of your action, if that's your direction, is to, then, have Planning bring forth
that, which will have to go through the Planning and Zoning Commission for their -- for
their comment and their recommendation to, then, come back to the Council. That takes
approximately three to four months or so for that process to get back to the Council. So,
just wanted you to be aware there is two steps that have to be done to change the
standard, not just the one that's in front of you tonight.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I don't know who can give me some understanding. This is -- this is not the
first time we have been talking about this. This process that we have set on was in part
directed by the Planning Department to address this issue. So, yes, I'm -- I don't -- and if
the Council doesn't want to move forward, then, it's a moot point, but it -- it is a little
challenging to be through this process three months in and have somebody say, well, now
you need to go through another process with P&Z and I think from a process standpoint
I think it can be very clunky to the public to have this process play out and, then, to say,
oh, we are going to go through P&Z now. So, I guess for future Council and the staff as
we look at these types of things, there has got to be a more streamlined process, so that
we are not here at the end -- and whether we move forward or not is irrelevant, that we
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are saying, oh, now you are going to have to go do this piece, when they could have
definitely been done in tandem, so that our citizens see that we have got our act together,
because this -- this feels like we don't know what we are doing and I'm a little surprised
this is now being brought to our attention tonight.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: So, Madam Mayor, Council Member Cavener, every discussion we have had on
this topic, the conversation has always been do we want to move forward at all. So, the
process of how to move forward wasn't ever discussed, but -- but Mr. Everett has always
raised that the whole session we are talking about that he deals with is the UDC and that
always has to go through the Planning and Zoning Commission. So, I'm sorry if it wasn't
clear, but it hadn't been clear to me whether the Council even wanted to move forward
with this topic on whether to even consider a change and that tonight was -- I thought
from the last conversation was to ask the public to weigh in on whether we should move
forward with the change. We can change one part of the code and that wil l deal with
some of it, but the specifics that you are talking about are in the UDC. So , I'm sorry if
there was a lack of clarity, but we haven't had clear -- clear understanding that we even
want to move forward.
Cavener: And Madam Mayor --
De Weerd: Which is why it is listed as public comment, because there hasn't been a clear
direction from Council on the direction this wanted to go.
Cavener: Well --
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: And, Madam Mayor, this -- this process began as some changes to the UDC.
That's where this process originated. So, it was staff who said that we needed to go this
approach and work with code enforcement on it , which is why I took the direction from
staff. So, it just -- it feels very much like that the ball is bouncing and I'm having a really
hard time trying to follow where it's going to land next.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Who drafted the ordinance that's on our agenda ?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, so our -- my office drafted that parking
change at the Council's direction, but we can't draft the UDC change, that has to come
through the Planning Department. So, the UDC change, if that's your direction, still has
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to go through that process. That will -- that will aid some in regards to parking in general,
but the specifics of parking on the driveway is still prohibited by the UDC until an
amendment to that is done.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I have a question for police. So, if -- say we allowed parking in driveways. So,
now there is not a three day rule or anything like that. It's allowed. It's up to the HOAs to
deal with it, but it's hanging out onto the sidewalk and that's strictly prohibited and there
doesn't have to be proof of -- or moving -- as far as enforcement it's easy; correct? Then
what would you do?
Lavey: Madam Mayor, Councilman Milam, that is correct. There is a parking ordinance
that talks about blocking the sidewalk. But it is a parking fine, so it is a minimal fine. I
don't recall what it is, but it's probably 25 dollars. But there is a mechanism for us to
address that, but it would be blocking the sidewalk, not the fact that it's in the driveway.
You will see that often with long trailers that will extend into the -- into the sidewalk.
Milam: Madam Mayor, follow up.
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Milam: And so does it have to block the entire sidewalk or does it have to be -- how many
inches or feet into the sidewalk?
Lavey: Madam Mayor, Councilman Milam, well now you're -- you're getting into what the
law says and, really, it only has to be a quarter of an inch --
Milam: Okay. That's all I --
Lavey: -- but it has to be -- it has to be reasonable.
Milam: Right.
Lavey: So, we will give it a set amount.
Milam: But it doesn't have to block the sidewalk.
Lavey: No.
Milam: It could be just into the sidewalk a foot or something and you are going to --
Lavey: Correct.
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Milam: -- get a parking ticket for that. Okay.
Lavey: As long as it's reasonable and a common sense approach.
Milam: The question really was about enforcement being much simpler as -- the way that
it was -- this was written was unenforceable based on the feedback that we got from you
guys. So, this -- if that were to happen would be at least an enforceable change.
Lavey: We currently enforce that now. It's easy to enforce. We will show up, we will take
a picture of it, we will write a citation. It -- it's relatively simple.
Milam: Okay. Thank you.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Whatever the process ends up happening, so be it, but I guess my commentary
on -- on the idea is -- I mean we -- we passed an ordinance that was complicated to
enforce with the air compression brake ordinance and it restricted freedom. We have an
opportunity here to increase freedom with a complicated to enforce ordinance. So, I think
if -- if we are willing to restrict it and have complicated enforcement, why the heck wouldn't
we be willing to -- to deal with the complicated enforcement when we are actually going
to increase the ability of our citizens to be able to use their property.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: If I can answer it and maybe move this thing along. I understand the distinction
is it's not a choice. If there is a UDC portion that requires a change we don't elect to
voluntarily run that through P&Z and City Council, that's a requirement. So, that's the
requirement, you are not choosing -- there is no correlation to imposing or lifting impacts
on freedom through this process we have got. So, I think that's a distinction. Where air
compression brakes doesn't necessitate a UDC text change. If -- if what's contemplated
here does, so be it. I think what I understand, if that's the case, then, somebody provide
direction and make a recommendation that we proceed to do X, Y and Z and have staff
initiate the UDC text change to facilitate that change. It's what I hear -- if -- if that hasn't
been done, if there is a desire to do it, then, I would say that, that starts it. It probably
doesn't answer the question of how we gobbled it to here in the first place , but it at least
gets the ball moving.
Cavener: Sure.
Borton: That's something.
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De Weerd: And -- and the desire has never had a formal motion to even know where
Council is weighing in on this. It was a desire to give public comment. Anyway, that was
our understanding of it. And also to get further data from code enforcement. So, I guess
I would ask for specific direction from Council. If you want to see this change to make a
motion and the majority can decide how best to move this forward and it would require
processes outlined by Mr. Nary.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: So, I have really been avoiding trying to kick stuff down the road to the next
council, but asking this group -- this body right here now to go forward on something that
we are not even going to be around for to make a decision , it just seems if we -- if it's
going to be that long of a process and it's a couple more weeks, then, it seems that --
the people that are going to be making that decision I think should decide if it should go
forward. But I don't know if Councilman Cavener should have to go through what he's
going through all over again.
De Weerd: Start all over.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Madam Mayor, appreciate the discussion this evening in regard to this proposed
ordinance. I think it's pretty obvious that code enforcement and the chief are not in favor
of this. I think would cause a lot of problems for them. So, I would -- I wouldn't be in favor
of the proposed ordinance as is, but would be open to the idea of maybe allowing parking
in driveways. I don't know how I feel about that. I haven't had a lot of time to process
that. But as far as the proposed ordinance is concerned , I think that I wouldn't be in favor
of it.
De Weerd: Okay. Well, I don't have a problem recommending kicking this down the road.
And that would be my recommendation, especially with the process -- irregardless it
would need to go through the UDC process , along with a number of other things. But I
-- I think that it probably would be a good conversation for the Council next month to
process and see if there is a desire to add this to the UDC change list and -- and, then,
start that process. So, great recommendation, Mrs. Milam. I agree. And it feels good.
Okay. Anything further on this? And thank you to those that -- that came to provide
comment. So, tonight we keep the ordinance the way it is. So , that's where we are
tonight.
D. Public Hearing for Street Length for Cul-de-Sacs (H-2019-0107)
by Todd Campbell
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1. Request: To extend the maximum street length for cul-de-sacs
listed in UDC 11-6C-3B.4 from 450 feet to 500 feet, or up to
750 feet with City Council approval.
De Weerd: Okay. Item 9-D is a public hearing for H-2019-0107. I will open this public
hearing with staff comments. But before I do so, is there anyone here that is new to the
public hearing process as we get into land use decisions? So, you all know that we start
with staff reports and the applicant has 15 minutes to provide a description of their project
and proposal. Then public hearing testimony is taken. You have three minutes each and
there is a timer on the podium. There will be a bell that sounds at the end of three minutes
and if you don't hear it I will remind you. At the end of public hearing and testimony we
will ask the applicant to come up and summarize, answer any questions that were brought
up during the testimony and, then, Council will deliberate. Just keep in mind that there
-- on each of these items there is a public packet that Council's had the opportunity to
review in advance of this meeting and that it will be part of their consideration as well.
So, with that said, Bill, it's all yours.
Parsons: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. Next item on the agenda is a UDC
text amendment. Kind of coincided with the last discussion. This is not city initiated. This
is something that -- if the Council recalls there was an applicant -- an application before
you approximately two or three months ago called Silver Springs Subdivision and there
was an instance where they could not get access through a common lot to a collector
roadway, which caused them to create a cul-de-sac in excess of what the UDC allows.
So, the graphic before you shows you that the way it's currently written in code the city
ordinance restricts cul-de-sac lengths and any series of dead-end streets to a length no
greater than 450 feet. If you recall with a particular project the applicant was slightly over
450 feet, but there was no Council waiver or no mechanism in code to allow Council to
grant that waiver. So, the only mechanism they have before you this evening is to change
the UDC and so what we did is the applicant heard you, they went and researched the
local jurisdictions in the Treasure Valley and brought forth some changes in the
application. Now, when we went to the Planning and Zoning Commission -- I mean code
challenges are serious for us. We know it impacts development citywide and not just a
specific development and so if we are going to support an applicant's request to change
the code, we want to make sure we have evidence and we do our due diligence and our
research supporting or not supporting the requested change and so I wasn't specifically
assigned to this, Caleb actually -- the planning division manager -- took this particular
project and he did some extensive research and provided you that analysis in the staff
report. But we -- what we found is that we could find compromise with what the applicant
was proposing. So, the applicant did go to Ada county, went to the city of Boise, went to
the city of Kuna and did find some support for the 500 foot extension of cul-de-sacs and,
then, looking at fire code and also ACHD policy, they did support up to a 750 foot cul-de-
sac length. So, the text amendment before you this evening takes into account all of that
information that was provided to us in looking at local and national jurisdictions. Now,
staff did receive some public testimony after the Planning and Zoning Commission from
the BCA, from our development community and, then, also a law firm and primarily two
-- one of the design professionals and one of the developers would like to leave the 450
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foot cul-de-sac length intact, but still have the ability to have some flexibility if you go over
that 450 foot requirement and, then, the other issue from the law firm and from BCA was
the number of homes that we are limiting on the cul-de-sacs and I will share with the
Council that there is not a magical number for the number of homes taking access off a
common drive -- or off a cul-de-sac. The intent behind it is to limit the number of homes
on a cul-de-sac, because we don't want -- from our standpoint and the policies and our
Comprehensive Plan is we don't want to have our subdivisions with a bunch of cul-de-
sacs. It's -- it's intended to be interconnectivity and connecting community, not walling
everyone off in having these long cul-de-sacs throughout the community. We need to
have interconnectivity. We need to alleviate congestion on our collectors and arterial
roadways and let things function the way they are and that's something that we had spoke
to -- to the Commission at length, if you had a chance to review or watch the YouTube
video. One thing that also came out from the Commission was adding this as in a graphic
to the UDC, so it would support what we were doing with the proposed changes this
evening. So, to show you how we would want to limit the cul-de-sac length, the number
of homes and, then, having at least a ped connection when you do have a cul-de-sac
length in excess of 750 feet linear feet. And we also shared with the Commission how
certain two properties could develop with interconnectivity and still not compromise the
number of lots on that particular -- for a particular development. So, you can see on
occasion we have had developments that had streets that ended in cul-de-sacs, but you
can see here that if you were to extend that roadway you still get the same number of lots
and still have connectivity between both neighborhoods with public streets. And, then,
we also took that same example with you and took that Silver Springs development and
showed you how it could work under current code and still -- again, you can see as you
redesign it there is -- there is a loss of lots, but even in the worst case scenario you are
losing two lots and the applicant just didn't want to do that. They decided to go ahead
and pursue the UDC text amendment. So, going back to my first slide here, you can see
here again staff is amendable to the 500 -- extending the UDC text amendment from 400
feet to 500 feet and, then, giving you the ability to grant something greater if there is
topography issues, steep slopes, railroad tracks, large waterways, maybe even a state
highway, there are some circumstances that could prevent streets from being extended.
And this is similar language to what we currently have in our block length standards under
the UDC subdivision standards and, then, we wanted to also define how you would
measure the cul-de-sac. So, you would go to the center of the turnaround for the cul-de-
sac, instead of all the way to the back edge of the cul-de-sac to give, again, the developer
some flexibility as to how to measure that. So, with that the Planning and Zoning
Commission did recommend approval, again, with these standards in front of you this
evening. I did share with you the public testimony that we received. I have no new
information to share with you and I will stand for any questions you may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. Council, any questions at this time?
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
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Bernt: Thanks, Bill. One question. I know that it's fluid, these -- this -- these -- this -- you
know, the lengths of -- of cul-de-sacs vary from different municipalities, but my question
-- what's the average? I mean there has to be like sort of -- there has to be some number,
you know, like some type of guideline, so to speak.
Parsons: Yeah. Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, that's something that we had
alluded to in staff report. It varies greatly throughout the nation. Some cities don't even
allow cul-de-sacs. Every street has to be connected. But in the valley what we found is
500 seems to be the standard and that's why we felt comfortable in the request that you
see this evening. Certainly it's within your purview to leave it as is or have some proposed
changes. But the idea behind this code change isn't to allow -- again, I guess the -- the
takeaway here is that the Council still will have discretion and staff will have discretion as
to whether or not a development should have more connectivity or less connectivity and
I think that was the direction of the Council give us some tools that we can use on a case-
by-case basis, not set the -- the precedent that we are going to have cul-de-sacs in all of
our subdivisions, multiple 750 foot long cul-de-sacs throughout the community. It was,
again, giving you some options when there are certain site impediments that can't be met
or complied with.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions at this time?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Just one. Bill, what's the -- what would be the reasoning behind the proposed
limitation be -- the number of dwelling units. I know you referenced it and I get it, but
there is reference in the application materials about fire code standards and you can have
the dimensional standards of the applicable zoning and those two could provide the
ultimate cap on the number of dwelling units that could be eligible for an extended cul-de-
sac. So, why would we cap it at 20, rather than utilize those other two?
Parsons: Well, Mayor, Members of the Council, again, that's your purview to -- to change
that. I think our -- when Caleb did his research he -- he didn't do a complete sweep of
the city, but there were a handful of cul-de-sacs that had more than 20 homes accessing
off of cul-de-sacs. There weren't -- very few. It's very limited circumstances where you
are going to have that occur and, again, the idea is to try to discourage cul-de-sacs, not
change the code to encourage more cul-de-sacs. But that did come up with the Planning
and Zoning Commission. Currently the fire code does allow up to 30 homes off a single
access and I think that's what the argument to BCA is using is why can't we have up to
30 homes or let the design of the -- and also from the attorney's office why not let the
code dictate what -- how many homes you could have on a cul-de-sac. I would also
mention to the Council that ACHD has a limitation on the number of homes off a cul-de-
sac and it is based on vehicle trips, not necessarily the homes. So, it's up to 400 vehicle
trips per day on a cul-de-sac is how they measure the length of a cul-de-sac or how they
are going to restrict it and, again, you get typically an average of ten vehicle trips a day
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from a single family home, so that would give you a number of 40 homes off a cul-de-sac
if you use that math. So, again, it -- it varies. It is arbitrary. We did pick 20 homes based
on what's occurred in our community. We felt comfortable with that , but some of the
language that the applicant proposed from Conger Management -- they said a cul-de-sac
street shall serve a maximum of 30 dwelling units if it's over 450 feet. So, I don't see a
situation where you are going to have more than 30 homes off a 450 foot cul-de-sac given
the dimensional standards. Is that a possibility? I guess anything's possible. We don't
know all of the unintended consequences when we are looking at code and certainly
that's, again, why we are very serious about it and we do our research, because we don't
want these unintended consequences where we get a code in effect and all of a sudden
we have that one project that comes through and we didn't take that into account and now
we are stuck with a code that doesn't work. But that's some of the rationale is we don't
want to encourage cul-de-sacs. We want to make it flexible, but we also don't -- that
shouldn't be the norm -- the new norm for Meridian to have cul-de-sacs -- these long cul-
de-sacs. It should be almost like alternative compliance, case-by-case basis and work
with the development community and as to -- and still support our Comprehensive Plan
for connectivity. Certainly with -- with the new Comprehensive Plan coming out, I think
shorter block lengths makes sense, because we do want to have more density or more
diversity of housing products and it makes it more difficult the longer block lengths you
have it's just -- you are going to get just a row of houses and have a lot of issues. So,
again, we are trying to -- to build on that livability component into the community.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. So, the UDC texts amendment does have an applicant.
The application --
Parsons: It does. Yeah.
De Weerd: Is the applicant here? Good evening. Thank you for joining us.
Waite: Thank you for having me.
De Weerd: If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Waite: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, my name is Dean Waite. I live at 4283
Nystrom Way in Boise.
De Weerd: Thank you, Dean.
Waite: As Bill explained very well and as many of your probably remember several
months ago, we were going through options for the Silver Springs Subdivision preliminary
plat and we came down to two options and the one that we had to choose, because of
some -- because of the way the code is written, was the -- the less -- the less desired
option by both us and the Council. At that point the Council asked us to go back and to
provide some flexibility by proposing an amendment to the -- the text of the UDC code.
That's what we -- that's why we have made the present -- or the -- the request that we
have to go from 450 feet to 500 feet, with some flexibility up to 750 feet for special
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circumstances. Council Member -- I think it was Bernt that asked about the averages of
other jurisdictions, was that -- so, when -- in the research we did Meridian is the -- the
most restrictive as it currently stands at 450 feet. Star was the only other community we
found with 500 feet. Boise and Eagle were both -- they don't have -- they -- like Meridian
and like us they prefer no dead-end streets and cul-de-sacs. We want connectivity; right?
But -- but Boise and Eagle both allow up to 750 feet and that's more of a fire code
restriction than anything. ACHD, as was mentioned by Mr. Bill, was -- their limitation is
400 trips, which is about 40 homes, and so the proposal to me up to 500 feet makes --
makes complete sense and kind of fits with our other jurisdictions, but the option to go up
to 750 feet with Council approval in certain circumstances to me answers the question
that you provided to allow you some flexibility in certain circumstances and it's not to put
cul-de-sacs everywhere and to make big long cul-de-sacs everywhere, that's not our goal
either, but it's still awesome. Flexibility for certain situations, like this subdivision that's
bordered on three sides without access to any public right of way. That's -- that's all I
have. That's all our proposal is to -- to change from 450 feet limitation to the 500 feet,
with options up to 750 feet with those restrictions.
De Weerd: Thank you, Dean. Council, any questions? Thank you.
Waite: Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Clerk, are there any citizens signed up to testify?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there is one. Dave Yorgason.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your name
and address for the record.
Yorgason: I will. My name is Dave Yorgason. Address 14254 West Battenburg Drive,
Boise, Idaho. And I am here with a couple different hats. One is speaking to history, as
Dean just well articulated. We appreciate your -- your approval of the Silver Springs
Subdivision as we are working with Todd Campbell with that effort and we really were
constrained on the northwest and south sides, only had access coming from the east
side, including a large -- two different homes, actually. We had to meander the street
around to -- to accommodate the -- the development design. I won't get into all the
nuances, other than just say we recognize -- on behalf of the BCA recognize the additional
analysis that the staff has done. If the City Council and Mayor are so inclined to accept
-- I think there is some good guidance there to the city as to why you may want to go over
the 500 feet. There are real constraints that the city will see. One of my comments is --
is that -- is the City of Meridian will see more in-fill type development and not that you
have or have not approved your comp plan, but I do anticipate higher densities coming to
the city and some of your specifically medium density type developments, you will have
more and more of these challenges. The 450 foot constraint is -- is really constraining
and you may or may not want to go to 750 feet, there may be reasons to grant that, but
the 500 foot really is -- is a minimum threshold for the rest of the Treasure Valley. I
recognize that as work moves forward with this development that we need to have a
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decision tonight, so we can move forward with the construction of the subdivision ,
otherwise, it's in a stall and so we are asking for an approval tonight. However, the real
big concern, which is what I want to emphasize here, is the number of homes, being
restricted to a maximum of 20 on a cul-de-sac. This development of Silver Springs was
an R-4 zone. You have a lot of R-8s and R-15s and other type of zonings in the city as
well. An R-8 zone, even at a 450 foot cul-de-sac or a 500 foot cul-de-sac, you can easily
put in almost 30 homes on a -- on a -- in fact, I think it's 29 is what I drew up on a 500 foot
long cul-de-sac and so the 30 seems to be -- if the city wants to put a limitation on it, 30
should be the number and I don't know why it would be less. The fire code is -- is single
access, no more than 30 homes. I don't know where else -- where that number of 20
came from. I don't know -- other than it just felt it came out of the air and it doesn't validate
it or justify of anything and so on behalf of the Building Contractors, if you do want to have
a restriction to the maximum number of homes, we ask that you change that number from
20 to 30 and with that I stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you.
Yorgason: You're welcome and I will take my last few seconds to say thank you to Council
Member Roberts, Palmer, Council Member Milam, and Mayor Tammy. I don't know if I
will see until your term is up. Thank you for your service to the city.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Yorgason: Yo u're welcome. Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Clerk, any other sign-ups?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, no additional sign-ups.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who wishes to provide
testimony? Yes. Good evening. If you will, please, state your name and address for the
record.
Bailey: Madam Mayor, Council, my name is Laren Bailey. My business address is 4824
East Fairview Avenue, Boise, Idaho. I have a handout here I would like to pass to the
clerk.
De Weerd: If you will give it to the clerk. Yes. Thanks.
Bailey: Just to clarify a couple things. We did submit a letter and I think there was a little
bit of confusion on our end. We found out about this kind of last minute and maybe that's
a little bit our fault, but we just are concerned about the -- the 20 lot requirement --
minimum requirement -- or maximum requirement. Excuse me. We -- we agree with the
500 foot cul-de-sac length. We are happy -- I mean I think the extension to 750 if the
Council approves it makes a lot of sense. It gives you the flexibility and way to look at
each situation and make an informed decision. But requiring a 20 foot restrict -- or 20 lot
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restriction we just think is -- as Bill indicated arbitrary. If ACHD allows the trip count and
there is no fire or emergency issues, we just -- we feel like going to 30 makes -- makes
much more sense. So, what I have provided you is just a sample motion -- you know, just
the changes we would make are in red and that's -- with that I will just stand for any
questions.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions? Okay.
Bernt: Nice to see that you remembered your business address.
Bailey: Yeah. Thanks. It took me a whole week of practice.
De Weerd: He read it off a piece of paper I think. Okay. Thank you.
Bailey: Thanks.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other testimony? Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Did you go through -- there is no other testimony?
De Weerd: No.
Borton: All right. Madam Mayor, just a quick -- a quick comment. I think what Mr. Parsons
was talking about with regards to the intent of the current and the new comp plan and
connectivity and all of those principles still remain and they are I think going to be
important for us to remember as applications come forward. That being said , I -- I wasn't
necessarily comfortable with that restriction of 20 as well. It seemed to make sense that
affording flexibility. The draft language says under that paragraph -- it says shall serve. I
thought may serve. I mean it's not a requirement that it's -- it's -- it's sort of a capacity
cap. Again, the intent is to encourage flexibility in these really unique situations. I
appreciate -- and there has been no objection to subparagraph B and -- and kind of the
very narrow window where there might be a necessity for this exception , all seems to
make good sense. So, if subparagraph B on what's in front of us was changed to read
cul-de-sac streets may serve a maximum of 30 dwelling units , that's compliant with fire
code, it affords flexibility, and still seems to meet the intent of -- of providing a solution in
those unique situations that we had an applicant confronted with recently. So, I would be
comfortable going forward with that adjustment.
De Weerd: Okay. If there is nothing further, do I have a motion to close the public
hearing?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Move we close the public hearing on Item 9-D, H-2019-0107.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-D. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Borton: Madam -- oh, go ahead.
De Weerd: Bill, any comment from staff?
Parsons: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, no. I think that's, again, well within
your purview to make the changes this evening. It's clear for what you want to do. So, if
that's the direction of the Council, certainly staff can support that and move forward with
this code change.
De Weerd: Thank you. Mr. Borton.
Borton: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I move we approve Item 9-D, H-2019-0107,
amending subparagraph B to read cul-de-sac streets may serve a maximum of 30
dwelling units.
Milam: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion?
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: I was vigorously zooming around the city trying to find one and the last place I
thought to look -- for some reason I did -- I found a street, a cul-de-sac, that has --
according to -- well, at the time that the picture was taken has 29 houses on it, but it looks
like 31 building lots and it's in Spurwing. So, it's in kind of our premier neighbor that we
all wish everything was like and it's got 31 lots on it. So, I think there is definitely scenarios
in which this makes sense and if we have to go to 30, I would rather not have a restriction
at all, given that that's our greatest example. But certainly 20 now makes a lot more
sense looking at this.
De Weerd: Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
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Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
E. Public Hearing for Hathaway Warehouse (H-2019-0118) by
Hathaway Development, LLC, Located at 2198 & 2262 E .
Franklin Rd.
1. Request: Vacation of the southern 10-feet of the 15-foot wide
landscape and irrigation easement depicted along the
northern boundary of Lots 2 and 3, Block 1, Whitehawk
Subdivision.
De Weerd: Item 9-E is a public hearing on H-2019-0118. I will open this public hearing
with staff comments.
Parsons: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. The next application
before us is the Hathaway Warehouse vacation. The site is located at 2198 and 2262
East Franklin Road. The applicant is here this evening to request a reduction to the 15
foot landscape and irrigation easement along the south portion -- or, excuse me, north
boundary of this particular property. This property was approved with the Sparrowhawk
development in 2003. At the time that it came through there was a PUD and the code in
effect at that time required that the applicant buffer commercial uses from industrial u ses
where there wasn't a buffer developed with the industrial property. So, they were hit with
this requirement because of a previous code. So, staff did receive -- the applicant intends
to -- the applicant's been approved for a property boundary adjustment to consolidate the
parcels into one property, so that they can construct a 20,000 square foot flex building on
the site. The city is in the process of reviewing and approving that certificate of zoning
compliance and design review application for this building once this vacation is acted on
this evening. So, currently the current code does not require a buffer between commercial
properties and the industrial property. Staff did receive written testimony -- or a written
letter from the Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District, who is the easement holder over this
15 foot easement and there are no facilities in there, so they are comfortable with the
reduction in the landscape buffer and so the current code only requires that there is five
foot -- if there is parking adjacent to that boundary, that there is only a minimum five foot
landscape buffer required. So, that's why they are going from 15 down to -- removing ten
and going down to five. Staff did receive written testimony from the applicant in
agreement with staff's recommendation to reduce the buffer and with that I would stand
for any questions you may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. Council, any questions? Okay. Is the applicant here? Okay.
Mr. Clerk, any citizens signed up?
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Johnson: Madam Mayor, yes. There were two sign-ups, neither indicated they wished
to testify. I believe it was the applicants.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who wishes to provide
testimony on this item? Council, any questions for staff or the applicant? If not, I would
entertain a motion to close the public hearing.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Move that we close the public hearing on 9-E.
Bernt: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-E. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Move that we approve H-2019-0118.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-E. If there is no discussion,
Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
F. Public Hearing for Waterwalk (H-2019-0111) by dbURBAN
Communities, Generally Located on the West Side Of N. Eagle
Rd., North of E. Franklin Rd.
1. Request: Rezone of 6.03 acres of land from the I-L to the C-
G zoning district.
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De Weerd: Item 9-F is a public hearing for H-2019-0111. I will open this public hearing
with staff comments.
Parsons: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Next application is the
Waterwalk rezone application. The site consists of 2.1 acres of land, zoned I-L, and is
located on the west side North Eagle Road and the east side of North Olson Avenue, just
north of East Franklin Road. This property was annexed in 1997 without a requirement
for a development agreement. The current Comprehensive Plan designation for this
property is commercial and the rezone from to I-L to C-G is consistent with the FLUM
designation of this property and the site is currently vacant commercial property ready for
development. So, the applicant is here to rezone the property, again, from C-G to -- or,
excuse me, from I-L to C-G. A conceptual development plan was proposed for this
property, but it is conceptual at this time. It does show two hotel sites on the property and
associated parking. The applicant has also indicated that office users are also
contemplated on the site, but aren't depicted on the plan. Access to the site will be
proposed from a local street, which is North Olson Avenue, which is along the west
boundary and already constructed and it provides connectivity to Franklin Road. No direct
lot access is proposed to Eagle Road, which is consistent with the UDC. So, because
the site plan is conceptual at this point, the staff is not recommending that this site plan
be tied to the new development agreement for this property. We anticipate some future
changes in discussions with the applicant and they want some additional time to modify
the concept plan, so at this point we are not requiring them -- these elevations or the site
plan before you to be tied to that development agreement and the DA also -- through the
DA we are also going to restrict the uses on the site to office, hotel, retail, restaurant uses
only and if any other uses are proposed for the site they would have to come back and
propose a DA modification and modify -- provide a concept plan and a new layout for this
body to take under consideration. Testifying -- the Commission did recommend approval
to you with those changes not tying in the concept plan or elevations to the new DA.
Dustin Holt, the applicant's representative and developer for the project spoke -- testified
in favor of the application and written testimony was provided by the applicant's
representative in -- in agreement with the staff's recommended DA provisions. The only
item of discussion by the Commission at their hearing was the agreement that this makes
more sense as commercial versus industrial property. Since the Planning and Zoning
Commission there has been no changes or written testimony on this particular application.
With that there are no outstanding issues with you. Staff and Commission are both
recommending approval and I stand for any questions you may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. Council, any questions for Bill? Okay. Is the applicant here
this evening? Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your name and address
for the record.
Holt: Dustin Holt. 211 East Broadway, Salt Lake City, Utah. Madam Mayor and Council
Members, thank you for your time tonight. I feel right at home with the elf on the shelf
here. I have got young children, so --
De Weerd: You know, he has a name. His name is Zinger.
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Holt: Zinger.
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Holt: Okay. My children would appreciate Zinger.
De Weerd: Well, Zinger has been named by the community and he is going to be all
around the city the next 24 days or 23 days and so follow him on Instagram and Facebook.
Thank you for the plug. That -- that just worked really nice.
Holt: I know. That was perfect. I want to thank you for your service. I'm not part of your
community. In my role at Dusty Baker, I am before appointed bodies or elected bodies,
such as yourself, monthly, a lot of times weekly, and in the off case like this week, two
times in a week. I have a little bit of an understanding of what it takes for you to serve
your community. So, thank you very much from my world to yours for your service to this
community.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Holt: I also want to thank Sonya. I know that Bill has stepped in for her tonight, but Sonya
and I met and talked about this site a little over a year ago on my first visit. I appreciate
the direction that she's given us. Her thoughts or input. I appreciate Bill stepping in for
her. I also appreciate the Van Auker family for working with us on this site. Brad Miller
and -- and now subsequently the Adler Properties Group, but we are very appreciative of
that. We have reviewed the staff report. We are in full agreement with the staff report. I
think just a couple of things to note. We are also acquiring the two lots south of this
property. So, we are acquiring a little over seven acres from the property owner. The two
lots adjacent to the south are already zoned commercial and so this brings a cohesive
zone to all the property that we are acquiring. As Bill mentioned, we do anticipate a
cohesive plan coming forward to you for our site plan and a DA, inclusive of those lots.
We did not want to go to the extent of doing that if this rezone is something that didn't fit
within your wheelhouse or your vision, so that's part of the reason what we have shared
is conceptual. It will be revised and tweaked. I was on the phone even as early as this
afternoon with Waterwalk and the hotel group. There is three different prototypes that
they have. One is a single building and 109 keys. Another is two buildings, which is what
you see here, and it's 153 keys. So, we are still working and waiting for a STAR report
and a couple of market analysis to come back to define the exact prototype , along with
Bill's -- what Bill mentioned, we are hopeful that when we bring a final site plan forward
that we might be able to integrate office, medical office, retail and even some use -- have
those uses with shared parking. Office and hotel generally are great synergistic parki ng
uses. You get a lot of daytime use in the office and nighttime for the hotel. We are -- we
know that we will never have access onto Eagle. We are hopeful in that process that a
right-in, right-out might be something that we could work for off of Fran klin. We know
there is a median there in the middle of Franklin, but thinking through just overall internal
flow of that site, that is something that is in the back of our minds and being worked on in
the plan. As was -- as was mentioned, staff recommended this for approval. The Planning
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Commission unanimously forwarded a positive recommendation and we appreciate you
hearing this matter and would respectfully request your approval on this matter tonight.
If there is any questions I'm happy to address them , otherwise, I will sit down.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions? Okay.
Holt: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you, sir. Mr. Clerk?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, we had one sign in. They did not indicate they wished to testify.
De Weerd: Okay. And you want to name them then or --
Johnson: They do not.
De Weerd: Oh, they do not. Is there anyone who wishes to provide testimony on this
item? Okay. Thank you. You are a quiet group. You are waiting; right? Okay. Council,
any information needed from the applicant or staff? If not, I would entertain a motion to
close the public hearing.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I move that we close the public hearing on Item 9-F.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All those in favor
say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam?
Milam: Madam Mayor.
De Weerd: I just thought I would call on you.
Milam: Sure. I wasn't sure if there was going to be a discussion. I move that we approve
H-2019-0111, as presented by staff -- I think which includes the type of the commercial
that can be on that property.
Little Roberts: Second.
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De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-F. Any discussion? Okay.
Mr. Clerk.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
G. Public Hearing for 840 E. Ustick Rd. (H-2019-0098) by Scott
Lamm, Located at 840 E. Ustick Rd.
1. Request: Annexation and Zoning of 2.29 acres of land with an
R-4 zoning district.
De Weerd: Item 9-G is a public hearing on H-2019-0098. I will open this public hearing
with staff comments.
Parsons: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. Next item is the 840 East Ustick
annexation. The site consists of 2.29 acres of land , currently zoned RUT in Ada county
and is located, again, at 840 East Ustick Road, which is on the north side of Ustick Road
between Meridian and Locust Grove Streets. There is no history on this particular
property. The current -- the Comprehensive Plan FLUM designation for this property is
low density residential and which is three units or less to the acre. The applicant is here
this evening seeking annexation because with the road widening project of Ustick Road
they actually will have services to the home, so right now it's uninhabitable until they can
connect to city sewer and water. The applicant's actually rehabing the home as we speak
through Ada county to try to get that process going and he has actually entered into a
hook-up agreement with the city to -- to connect to those services predicated on
annexation of the property. Excuse me. Originally when the applicant submitted an
application he had requested to annex in with R-4 zoning designation. Because the
applicant is not proposing any development at this time staff was more comfortable with
downzoning him from an R-4 to an R-2 zone. We did discuss that with the applicant and
he testified at the Planning and Zoning Commission that he was amenable to rezoning
this -- or annexing this property in with an R-2 designation, because there are no
development plans at this time. We have put in the hearing outline this evening if you --
if the Council is agreeable to the R-4 zoning as requested by the applicant, that you at
least continue this project out and allow staff time to at least bring back some DA
provisions to coincide with the R-4 -- requested R-4 zone. With the R-2 zone staff is not
recommending a development agreement with the proposed annexation. The Planning
and Zoning Commission, again, did recommend approval of the R-2 zoning. Speaking in
favor of the application was Scott Lamm, who is the developer-applicant representative
-- or applicant of this property. He also provided written testimony in agreement with the
R-2 zoning as recommended by staff and, then, we had Alyssa and John Villanueva --
Villanueva providing written testimony. Key issues of discussion by the Commission was
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the R-2 zoning versus the R-4 zoning and, really, in the code is -- the difference is
dimensional standards. An R-2 zone is larger than an R-4 zone and you need greater
frontage improvements for the R -- R-2 zone versus the R-4 zone. So, really, an R-4 can
work. An R-2 is probably the preferred zoning by staff, just because there is no
development planned at this time. So, again, there are no outstanding issues for the City
Council this evening and staff has not received any written testimony on this application
since the Planning and Zoning Commission. Staff is recommending approval of this
application, along with the recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission
with the R-2 zone and with that I will stand for any questions you may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. Council, any questions? Is the applicant here? Do you have
any comment?
Lamm: No, not really. I will tell some stories, but -- hi. I'm Scott Lamm. Bill and his team
were just great to work with and I'm willing to do the R-2 zone. That's totally fine. I think
if -- if I don't have to do a development agreement I think it saves me 310 dollars in fees
from the city. So, I'm all for saving 310 dollars.
De Weerd: Merry Christmas.
Lamm: And so based on -- based on the rest of the meeting here tonight, though, I am
thinking that I may open it up for RV parking on those two acres and maybe do flyers out
in the subdivisions with the HOAs -- with the HOAs, so -- anyway. Thanks.
De Weerd: That's lovely.
Lamm: Yeah. I think we are -- I'm happy to answer any questions.
De Weerd: Council, any questions? Well, thank you for joining us.
Lamm: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me.
De Weerd: Mr. Clerk, any citizens signed up to testify?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there were no sign-ups.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who wishes to
provide testimony? Okay.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we close the public hearing for H-2019-0098.
Borton: Second.
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De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-G. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we approve H-2019-0098, inclusive of the R-2 zoning designation.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-G with the R-2 designation.
Any discussion? Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
H. Public Hearing Continued from November 12, 2019 for
Silverstone Apartments (H-2019-0099) by Dave Evans
Construction, Located at 4107 E. Overland Rd.
1. Request: Modified Development Agreement for the purpose
of removing the subject property from DA Instrument #2018-
012457 and DA Instrument # 2018-012456 and be placed in
a new, separate agreement.
De Weerd: Item 9-H is a public hearing continued from November 12th on H-2019-0099.
I will ask for staff comments at this time. This is a continued public hearing.
Parsons: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. As you alluded to, Mayor,
this was continued twice from the October 22nd and November 12th City Council hearing.
The main reason for the continuances was to allow the applicant time to provide revised
plans to address staff's concerns in the staff report regarding the density on the site and
the open space proposed with the development. I would mention to the City Council --
and I apologize for getting the memo and the revised plans out to you late yesterday
evening. As you know we are understaffed and getting the plans -- I got the plans on
Friday. The applicant reminded me that -- asked if I got the plans. I said yes. And I got
into pre-application meetings and interviews to try to get new team members to join the
team and with the shortened work week didn't have an opportunity to get that memo o ut
to you in a timely fashion. So, apologize to the -- to the residents that are here as well.
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It wasn't the intent to -- to get those plans out for their review, but it was my understanding
in communications with the applicant that they were going to have subsequent
neighborhood meetings and share the revisions with the neighborhood , so they were
informed as to what the changes were going to be moving forward and so we took that
and hoped that that was shared with the community as the applicant was trying to work
through some of their concerns. So, I just wanted to go on the public record and -- and
-- and state that there was a delay of getting those plans to the clerk's office , but this --
this particular property I do want to spend some time on the history of it, because it's --
it's morphed over from its original approval and this application this evening has two
components of it. One, it has three development agreements governing the site, which
is an inefficient way of administering developme nt in the City of Meridian. Two, one of
the DAs has an error in it, so we have to clear -- clean that up. And, three, the applicant
wants to increase the density on the site. So, my first part of the presentation I am going
to spend a little bit on the history, because I think it's important to note to the Council that
when this property was originally annexed into the city in 2016 the intention was always
to have density on this site. This body approved a development agreement, a 14 acre
site, to develop with 312 multi-family units. In 2017 the applicant came back before you
-- not this applicant, but a different developer, different applicant, came back before you
and said that that was too much density on this site , we needed to rezone this property,
reduce our site. They changed -- did a conditional use modification, did DA mod, did a
new subdivision and they actually reduced the density from the 312 that was recently
approved down to 112 units and those are the site plans that are before you currently.
So, right now as stated in the DA, the applicant has the first phase under construction
with 112 units as you see before you this evening. That's currently under construction.
What they are wanting to do this evening is increase that density from the 112 -- originally
to 204, but the staff report that was print -- after the staff report the applicant saw staff's
changes and they went back to the neighborhood and worked with staff to try to come up
with a revised plan to add more open space, address our parking concerns, and provide
more amenities for the development and, then, also work with the neighbors on some of
the traffic concerns that they were hearing from them. So, originally, when this was
submitted they were proposing 240 units. Our original recommendation -- or how it's
currently written in the staff report is to reduce that from 204 down to 192. Well, the memo
that I prepared for you yesterday I shared with you the revisions and, again, it was my
intent that this was shared with the neighbors at the neighborhood meeting. In
discussions with some of those neighbors they were privy to these plans. So, I know
some of them have seen it, but I don't know if all of them have. So, the plan that's before
you with the revisions and what I tried to capture in the memo for you is the applicant's
actually reduced the density from 204 down to 196. So, again, staff wanted 192. The
applicant came back to 196. And the primary changes that -- and I will explain those to
you as well is one is the entrance off of South Movado Way actually shifted to the south.
So, previously it was located in this area, if you can see my cursor. They moved that to
the south, so it would be farther away from the intersection to allow for future stack --
better stacking and try to deter traffic from exiting out onto Movado Way, at least the multi-
family traffic. ACHD has requested the applicant to do a traffic warrant analysis and that
information has been provided to them, but we do not have any information from ACHD
as to whether or not -- they requested additional information, but they were comfortable
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with the city taking action this evening and I wanted to make sure that you had Christy
Little's e-mail in your packet this evening. So, that's some new information that was -- the
clerk updated -- uploaded this evening for you to take under consideration. The applicant
did lose units, which actually moved the tot lot to a more central location within the
development. It was previously over here within this 50 by 100 area . Relocated it over
here. The applicant did open the dog park area for more open space and this also allowed
them to get another 50 by 100 open space area here along the southeast corner of the
development and, then, staff also had a condition that they provide a 25 foot landscape
buffer along this portion of the development, so it would provide a better transition to the
adjacent single family homes on the south boundary and that's really what predicated the
continuance was to give time -- the applicant time to change the plan and meet some of
the changes that staff had recommended in the staff report for you this evening. They
also did provide some revised open space exhibits and revised landscape plans to show
you how that works as well. So, looking at this proposal -- I mean this is one step. So,
the applicant first has to get the DA modification approved and, then, go -- subsequently
go before Planning and Zoning Commission for a CU mod to allow the increase in density
as well. So, it's a -- it's a two prong approach. They need the DA mod before they can
get the CUP mod approved and the CUP mod is approved for this week's Planning and
Zoning Commission to hear, again, the same revised plans and those have been
forwarded onto the clerk to include in -- as part of the CU packet for the Commission. So,
those plans -- have been already sent to them. So, in my memo -- and, then, the
elevations are going to -- again, going to be similar to what was previously approved with
phase one. So, this is a little unique as well, is that the MDA also includes the area on
the east side Movado Way. So, the DA mod that's before Planning and Zoning
Commission only includes the western portion of the site and the expansion of the phase
two, but it's part of the DA mod this evening. The applicant's also proposing a commercial
building and, then a future townhome development, which will require another rezone of
the property and subdividing of the property. So, it's only conceptual at this point. The
applicant will have to go back before Planning and Zoning and City Council for the rezone
and the plat to do the townhome portion of the development along the east side of South
Movado Way. So, currently I think in that memo that I provided to you City Council late
last evening, we had a -- I have had a chance to look at the revised plans. Staff is
supportive of the changes proposed by the applicant and so looking at the requested DA
changes, I noted to the Council that if you support the DA modification this evening, I
would request on this exhibit that item number three be stricken from the DA provisions,
because the applicant has provided -- has lost density, met the -- adjusted their parking
plan and added more open space and those were some of the primary concerns with the
application and, then, item four on this graphic -- currently we have them restricted to 192
multi-family units. We would request that -- that that would increase to 196 as shown on
the revised site plan. Looking at the public record, it appears that there is quite a bit
opposition on this particular project. I counted 37 before I came to the hearing this
evening. Most of the opposition, again, is in regards to the density on the -- of the project
and also the access to Movado Way and getting in and out of that development.
Neighbors are concerned that the congestion -- it's getting more and more difficult to get
out of there. I think this body remembers when Movado came through there was some
discussion about punching another access point to Cloverdale at that time and through
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the public hearing process and working with ACHD and the developer, it was determined
by this body and ACHD that that was not necessary to adequately serve this development.
So, this site actually has a connection point to the south -- or to Overland Road and there
is two connection points through Silverstone Business Park that takes you out to Eagle
Road and one of those is a signalized intersection. So, when that application came
through it was found that there was sufficient access in -- to and from this development.
So, again, staff is recommending approval for this application this evening with the
modification as stated and with that I would conclude my presentation and stand for any
questions you may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. Council, any questions?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Bill, can you go over one more time the -- the number of units when this was
first annexed and, then, with the revision and, then, the 196 now?
Parsons: Absolutely. I know it's -- this site's a mess to be -- to be honest with you. There
was a lot of errors happen. So, we have got to get it correct one way or another. But,
essentially, when it came through in 2016 the applicant had 14 acres of the site and they
were approved with a CUP and a DA for 312 multi-family units on 14 acres. The applicant
at the time was trying to sell the property and wasn't able to retain a borrower for the 312
units. They -- they couldn't get anyone to buy it. So, in their mind they felt it wasn't a
profitable project. So, they came back, went through the Movado Greens, brought back
a new plat, rezoned it, carved out a five acre piece to develop 112 multi-family units, which
is the first phase, which is, basically, the western half of this graphic in front of you. And,
again, that's under construction. They have gotten approval on that. They are moving
dirt and going vertical on that. So, really, this is a phase two, which is a four acre piece
here, to increase that from 112 up to 196. And, then, of course, as I alluded to, there will
be a commercial component to it and, then, a townhome component as well, which will
come back at a -- at a later phase.
Cavener: Thank you.
De Weerd: So, Bill, the 312 units was not on this piece?
Parsons: Yeah. Correct. Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, this piece was always
intended for commercial. So, it was the 312 units. We had some commercial pad sites
and, then, it transitioned to the collector road -- South Movado Way on the east. So, it
was going to be 312, retail -- and, then, retail on the opposite side and, then, the roadway.
I mean if you -- in the staff report Silverstone -- it's an employment area. It provides a lot
of retail, it has a lot of commercial. So, again, when we analyze this DA modification
application and the conditional use permit modification, we felt like a commercial
component wasn't as necessary as the higher density residential component, because
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we want people closer to their employment center, to their jobs, that they can live here,
hopefully they can bike, walk, use the collector road and go to work and not have to go
on Overland Road. That was the intent when we look at mixed use regional areas we
want densities between six and 40 dwelling units to the acre. When you take this piece
and you roll it into the overall Movado development to the south, you are nowhere near
-- you are probably eight to ten dwelling units to the acre. You are not anywhere -- you
are within that density range of the mixed use regional, but, again, we tried to put that
nexus for you in the staff report, because we new some of the neighborhood opposition
was coming, but we want you to understand -- I think everyone understands that we want
residential close to employment. So, we do -- try to reduce congestion and we keep
people in our community working and that's the justification of why we support this phase
two and additional density on this particular project.
De Weerd: Well, I appreciate that clarification. I just wanted to make sure, because I -- I
didn't feel that was -- was articulated. Okay. Any further questions from Council? Okay.
Is the applicant here? Good evening. If you will, please, state your name and address
for the record.
Nelson: Thank you. Good evening, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Elf Zinger.
My name is Deborah Nelson. My address is 601 West Bannock in Boise. Also here with
me tonight for the applicant is Rob Powell, the project engineer -- or, excuse me, the
project architect with Dave Evans Construction and Rob may jump in as well with some
additional comments and answers to your questions. Thank you to city staff for their
continued review of iterations of these plans and their support of the revised plans that
have been submitted. The applicant is in complete agreement with the staff's conditions
of approval at this point. Just want to start with a little additional project overview. Some
of it's a repeat just to make sure we are all on the same page, but I will try not to belabor
the points that were asked about. This project has changed a couple of times , obviously,
since it's been approved and originally annexed as the owners and the city have tried to
figure out what is the best product mix here. The -- the site was originally approved for
312 apartment units and -- and additionally commercial and, then, in 2017 some of that
commercial was changed to some single family homes and 112 units were left. The
commercial hasn't taken a hold, while the single family is building out and the apartments
are under construction as was noted. The commercial is still sitting there vacant. So, this
applicant has a proposal to change a portion of that unutilized commercial back into
residential with 84 new apartment uses and ten new townhomes. This will create more
housing, more amenities will be added to the site and it will decrease traffic impacts. To
accomplish this we need a DA modification. That's the narrow application approval we
have before you tonight. But as Bill noted, we have a whole series of applications that
have to go forward before this change can actually happen , including with the Planning
and Zoning Commission on the CUP modification and future applications for the
townhomes. Also as Bill noted, this is a great location for some higher density apartments
and residential to be added, because there is already great connectivity with employment
and commercial opportunities right next door. Silverstone Plaza is immediately to the
west with 943,000 square feet of office and commercial. This includes employment
opportunities with the city call center, Power Engineers, bodybuilding.com, T-Mobile. Plus
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restaurants and retail right there next door. The Eldorado Business Campus is the next
property to the west, along with other commercial at Eagle and Overland. There is hotels,
more retail and restaurants. St. Luke's Hospital is a mile and a quarter away. That's a
walk or a short bike ride from these homes. The requested modification will provide
needed rental and for sale housing for city residents, with a diversity of price points and
housing types. Expected rent to be as low as a thousand per unit here, ranging up to
about 1,400. The apartments and townhomes provide a nice transition with the
neighboring uses between the single family to the south, the commercial and the office to
the west and right in the middle of the existing apartments and the proposed commercial
that remains right along Overland, a principal arterial. Turning to the site plan. This phase
one of apartments just on this west side of this line, this is what's being built out now.
That's the 112 units. We are proposing to add 84 one and two bedroom units right here.
That will replace the -- the space that would accommodate approximately 47,000 square
foot of commercial area. The townhomes are down here in this corner. The southeast.
Replacing the space that would accommodate approximately 5,000 square feet of
commercial. The overall density of the apartments will stay basically the same. I mea n
it's actually a slight decrease from 19.98 to 19.66. The 84 additional apartments will be
added in a way to create an integrated apartment site and that's what you can see from
this site plan here. The site plan has gone through a number of changes , as Bill noted.
The applicant has held four different neighborhood meetings and they have made
changes in response to neighbor comments and comments from city staff and also from
ACHD. Some of these include eliminating an entire apartment building from the southeast
corner, which had eight units. They moved buildings and other improvements that were
along the southern border further north to create a larger buffer. They moved the access
point on Movado Way and Bill talked about that to be further south. And they relocated
amenities and parking, creating more separation to the existing single family residen ts
and from Movado Way, which is their primary entrance. The site has great amenities.
With this modification we will be expanding the clubhouse, adding a pool, a dog walk area
and a 50 by a hundred open lawn area. Other existing amenities include the clubhouse
with fitness facilities, playground, and sport court. The parking on this site exceeds city
code requirements. It's also important to note tha t these apartments do not include any
three bedroom units and the city code requires the same amount of parking for two
bedroom and three bedroom units. Although sometimes three units can create actual
demand and a little higher -- and that won't be the problem here, because we don't have
any three bedroom units. So, we are -- we will be well within the usage that's
contemplated by your city code and we even have more spaces that's required by your
city code and based on the applicant's experience with similar products, they believe that
the amount required by city code will meet their market demand as well. There was a
concern raised by neighbors about spillover with parking along Movado Way. However,
that's a residential collector and there will be no parking allowed along that street, so that
should not be a problem there. Transit is also available to serve this property and it's very
walkable and bikeable to the nearby businesses and employment. The site includes
extensive landscaping, buffers, and open space. There is a 25 foot wide buffer along the
southern border that will have significant landscaping between these apartment buildings
and the existing single family uses. They will install mature trees from the beginning with
three inch caliper autumn blaze maples and ten to 12 feet tall Colorado blue spruce right
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from the beginning. The site includes more than two times the amount of open space that
is required by your city code for this type of project . Over 100,000 square feet and only
49,000 would be required. There is great pedestrian connectivity with sidewalks
throughout and with sidewalk connections extending up to Overland and out to Movado
Way and also a bollarded emergency access that's to the south providing additional bike
and pedestrian connectivity there and there is a remaining commercial pad that would
accommodate approximately 12,000 square feet, providing some additional mixed use
opportunity. We think it may be a good site for a medical office building. There are two
access points to the apartments. The primary access is directly onto Overland Road and,
then, there is a second access onto Movado Way. In response to the comments from
ACHD and the neighbors, that is why we moved this down here. We have also agreed
to install traffic calming devices throughout the middle portion and west of the access --
excuse me -- east of the access out to Overland Drive, so that it discourages cut through,
so the apartment users are not, you know, further incentivized to come out to Movado
Way. We want to discourage that cut through, so they are more incentivized to use the
direct access onto Overland, which is a closer distance for many of the buildings anyway.
The project and the area has great connectivity to neighboring businesses. Bill , you may
need to help me. Thank you. Showing a lot of the streets that are around this
neighborhood and that was discussed a bit by Bill already with the connections out to
Eagle Road. Also the trips for residential are less than commercial and if we just focus
on, for example, this area that were -- approximately four acres we are replacing the
commercial uses that would accommodate approximately 47 ,000 square feet of
commercial and we are putting 84 new units, if you just use the ITE standards for a trip
generation for those two uses on that one area, we would generate with 84 apartments
457 trips there and a pretty conservative mix, actually, of commercial, not even going all
retail, which is very high trip demand, but using a mix of medical, office, general office
and retail would be 1,192 and that just gives you a scale of -- that -- and I know you guys
know this already, that commercial just generates a lot more trips than residential. ACHD
has recommended approval. ACHD's conditions of approval do require us to submit that
signal warrant analysis. It's actually not due until we pull a building permit. That's the
trigger by which it has to be submitted, but we have gone ahead with that, we have hired
Kittelson and that is in progress now and we will comply with ACHD conditions of
approval. In addition to the reduction of trips, other benefits with converting from
commercial to residential on a portion of this site includes that commercial would
inevitably have signage along the frontage of this same four acre property along Overland
and we heard a lot of complaints from the neighbors worried about the entrance and
visibility of how it looks coming into their -- their main entryway and the landscaping that
will be provided on the frontage of these buildings will certainly be more attractive than
you might find from commercial signage. Also commercial buildings could be up to 65
feet tall in this zone. Could be closer to the residents where we have provided that 25
foot buffer and that extensive landscaping on the south. We also heard some concerns
about just impact on property values to place multi -family right next to single family.
However, this is commonly done and appropriate. Creates a nice diversity of uses --
actually can create value, because you don't have all of the same housing type and so
we just pulled together a few examples here in Meridian . You are familiar with the
Paramount -- Paramount neighborhood where they put 280 units right in that -- the middle
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of that neighborhood and that has not hindered sales and Boise -- a couple of examples.
There is lots of apartments, townhomes, and condos mixed in right next to the Highlands.
And Somerset Village is apartments and condos right here in the middle, right next to
Somerset where in the last 12 months we have seen housing sales and -- ranging from
715,000 to 830,000. Certainly not impacting values. In Eagle similar example where you
have got many apartments and townhomes coming in right into the Renovare
neighborhood, where you had average sale prices of 887,000 and plus within the last 12
months. So, it's -- it's appropriate, it's commonly done, it creates a nice diversity. I just
will show you these quickly. I know elevation really isn't in the -- you know, the issue
before you tonight, but just so you know, similar to what's been there, these are very
attractive already. This is the townhome example. Some of the elevation similar to what's
already been approved on the site, so it will be very nice and cohesive and with that we
would ask the Council to approve the modification to the development agreement as
recommended by staff and I would stand for questions.
Borton: Thank you, Ms. Nelson. Council, any question?
Bernt: Mr. President?
Borton: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Deborah, one question. You mentioned that there would be rented and owned
units. Can you, please, specify what you are talking about.
Nelson: Yes. Mr. President and Council Member Bernt, that's correct. The apartments
will all be for rent, but the townhomes will be for sale.
Bernt: Okay. Got it.
Borton: Council, any other questions of the applicant? I have one. There was an earlier
slide that made reference to Building J that -- it says remove residential building, replace
with open space. Then it looked like the current site plan has the full building J there.
Nelson: Yes. Mr. President, I can address that and Bill could as well. But I can get you
there. So, this is J. The original staff conditions of approval had recommended a portion
of Building J, right here, be removed in order to address staff's concerns with open space
and parking and that was what we revised -- submitted the revised plans to address.
Instead eliminated Building M, which was right here and created more open space and
amenities on this end instead, which also reduced the units, reducing parking needs and
we had heard a lot of desires to have more separation from Movado Way, so --
Borton: One last question. Was there -- in your -- in the four meetings with the
neighborhood, was there any particular ask from them that -- that it was just too much or
not feasible, not -- other than don't make them apartments.
Nelson: I will have to defer to Rob on that.
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Borton: Okay. We -- we always appreciate it when applicants and the neighbors get
together, even if they end up disagreeing, but they have constructive conversation, so
what was your understanding of some of the ultimate conditions that weren't acceptable,
short of not making them apartments in the first place?
Powell: Density was a big concern to them and I think also transition and as Deborah's
mentioned, also just kind of the view from Movado Way. So, you know, I suppose they
would have -- we heard comments like can you just make it all two stories, things like that.
You know, we have run the numbers over and over again and we need this type of density
for it to be a successful project. We were able to address a lot of the concerns with traffic
by shifting the access point onto Movado. Also providing some of that open space along
Movado and, then, increasing the buffer to the south. Those were concerns as well, as a
lot of those homeowners kind of bought their homes expecting commercial development
to the north.
Borton: Okay. And -- and there was reference to the -- the 2017 amendment with the
commercial uses would have allowed up to 65 feet , did I hear that correct?
Powell: Yeah. The Meridian City Code for the C-G district will allow up to 65 feet high.
Borton: Okay. And how tall are Building L and J? Are those both --
Powell: They are pretty close to 40 feet, the top of the peak.
Borton: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. Council, any other questions? Okay. Thank
you both.
Nelson: Thank you.
Parsons: Council, before we get into public testimony, I did -- I was able to find the
concept plan that was approved with the 2016 application, if you want to look at that
before we take public testimony to see how that looked back in 2016.
Borton: Oh, way back then.
Parsons: Back in the day.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bill. When -- when you come up we can pull -- pull that up for
sure. Okay. So, we enter into the public testimony portion. Mr. Clerk, will you, please,
read those that signed to testify.
Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Yes, there were 22 sign-ins. Eight indicated they
wished to testify. One indicated they are representing an HOA. The complete list is on
your computer's under sign-in dashboard and the first person is Harold Leslie.
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De Weerd: Thank you, Harold, for joining us. If you will, please, state your name and
address for the record.
Leslie: Sure. Harold Leslie. I live at 2058 South Hills Avenue in the Movado community
there.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Leslie: Madam Mayor, Members of City Council, to make it short, I did submit a comment
letter. Hopefully you have seen that. My wife. It's in the -- it's in the comments letter
groups. The -- the main thing is -- I did notice in the revised staff reports that -- a mention
of a traffic signal at Overland and Movado Way is now mentioned, where I don't know that
it was mentioned before. Unfortunately, those references are using terms like anticipated,
potential, future without any specific time frame and for us having a -- those aren't
satisfying. They are not giving us any comfort level that there ever will be a -- a traffic
signal there. So, that's my -- one of my main things. We really need a traffic signal there.
Just simply -- it's so dangerous to get out onto Overland and Movado Way is our -- you
know, our main access. It's the collector street that collects from Movado and funnels it
out to -- to Overland. The second thing is regarding a -- a warrant -- signal warrant
analysis. Those are -- that's a numbers game and whether the numbers are there not to
warrant a signal isn't very satisfying either. I would hope that a full traffic study could be
done where it would look at the patterns of traffic, future levels of traffic, where traffic is
going now and where would be the better place to send it, rather than just a numbers
analysis for a traffic warrant. The -- they are -- Bill brought up that -- and I didn't know
this -- that the thing with the access out to Cloverdale and that was decided against,
because besides Movado Way there is two other accesses and I think what he's referring
to -- and if you were to throw up an aerial photograph, I think one of those accesses is
Copper Point, which would be a great alternative, because it takes you out through the
Silverstone business area and -- you know. And streets that are fairly wide. You have
got businesses located on them. Oops. I'm sorry. Did I just do that? But it's down here
at the south end of the city. Anyway. And it's a good street to handle that kind of traffic.
The second access besides Movado Way, unfortunately, I think is my street, South Hills
Avenue, which leads you to Pewter Falls, which, then, leads you out to Cobalt Point,
which, then, leads you out to Silverstone, which, then, leads you to a signalized
intersection on Overland.
De Weerd: Harold, can I have you summarize.
Leslie: Sure. And just -- what I would like to point out -- I thought that -- I think that was
very short sighted calling that an access. That's a local resident -- single family residential
street, 40 foot wide lots, driveways are very close together. You have got kids and families
out there and you have got people racing down that street at close to 50 miles an hour
trying to get to that signal at Overland, just because it's a lot safer --
De Weerd: Sir.
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Leslie: -- trying to get out.
De Weerd: I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off, but your time is up.
Leslie: That concludes my comments. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is Michael Fletcher, representing an HOA.
Fletcher: Madam Mayor --
De Weerd: Good evening.
Fletcher: Hello, Madam Mayor, City Council. My name is Michael Fletcher. I'm a
homeowner of --
De Weerd: You do have ten minutes.
Fletcher: I'm sorry?
De Weerd: As a spokesperson you have ten minutes.
Fletcher: Okay. Thank you very much. I would like to clarify something. Are you able to
tell us was the 300 plus apartments approved before the Movado village community was
planned?
De Weerd: At this point we don't have that information.
Fletcher: Okay.
De Weerd: But we can ask staff to present that.
Fletcher: I was just curious, because I think it all -- it's important. So, I am a homeowner
there within the Village at 1869 South Tristram Lane. The gated community with the
community Movado and I'm hoping that you received my e-mail and it's in your packet
and you read it. I have written two. The second one really explains in detail the
observations that I feel -- and the justifications for my objections. If you look at the
neighborhood -- we live there and I eat at the restuarants in the neighborhood, but really
-- the only thing that's really close or even convenient is across Eagle Road on Overland.
There is a yogurt shop and a coffee shop and a soup house or soup store that's hardly
ever even open. A little sushi -- sushi restaurant that I go to. So, there is really nothing
there. We bought our home there, anticipating it being our last home, and we understood
that the community was going to have commercial -- a sandwich shop, a coffee shop, a
hair salon, dry cleaners in that commercial space up on Overland. The fact that they had
112 units approved early on -- I'm okay with that. That's -- that's life and that's acceptable
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to me. What I don't feel is acceptable is continuing to cram more and more apartments
in a very small space and having as many residents as maybe in our community and 360
plus cars in a space about the size of your parking lot outside of this building and the fact
is that it is -- it's very dangerous to be able to get in and out of Movado Way onto Overland
at almost anytime of the day. The other thing I would also like to point out is that I feel
like we are being pigeon holed and everything leading into our nice planned community
that took two years to develop , is going to be multi-story rental apartments that, quite
honestly, there is no harm in it, it's not against the law to live in an apartment , it's not a
social insult, the fact is people live in an apartment complex. But the fact is that we are
spending anywhere from a quarter of a million to 300 -- three quarters of a million dollars
for a home in a master planned community that took the city two years to put together
and, then, at the last moment they are bringing in as many as 200 apartment complex
dwellings there in that very small space and it's right there pigeon holed and we have got
to pass that to and from our forever homes and I don't know if anybody's taken into
consideration that the amount of density th at's already there and what's already planned
and under construction across the street on the northern side of Overland by Eagle. Top
Golf. Medical buildings. Restaurants. Hotels. Employees and guests to that space alone
is just going to continue to burden that intersection of Silverstone and Overland, which is
just right west of Movado Way. So, I don't know if I can be as articulate now verbally with
you today as I thought I was in my e-mail that I wrote to you. But I really want you to --
from the 50,000 foot level as a city organization, as a group of people, you have done an
amazing job developing the City of Meridian and, Mayor Tammy, thank you so much for
the service to the city. I love living in Meridian and -- and it's because of what you have
helped guide and helped the city develop into, but if you get down at the street level of
Overland and Movado Way and you start looking there and you consider living there,
stacking 200 apartment complex buildings and the apartment complex units there, it's
way too dense and it takes away from where we live and what we have invested in as a
long-term residential purchase. The gentleman from the construction company even told
us in a residential meeting in the Village -- in our subdivision, that if the city forced them
to reduce the number of units below 88 in the second phase, they would ultimately find it
to be unprofitable. Here you're having them drop it down to as many as 84 and that
seems to be acceptable. They said that if it would drop below 88 it would probably be
unprofitable, they would withdraw their application for phase two and building those
additional apartments. The other thing I'm concerned about , too, is -- I witnessed it. At
Ustick and Eagle Road when they built this beautiful futuristic looking, forward thinking
apartment -- townhomes, that is Ve rraso Village, as soon as they got built -- as soon as
they got occupied, they sold them to a California investor. I lived there. I rented there
while I was waiting for Movado to develop and be ready for my wife and I to build our
home there. As soon as they sold out to that investment company in California the
management company was impossible to get ahold of . The quality of care of those units
diminished quickly. As a retired deputy sheriff from southern California, I felt like I was
beginning to drive into my driveway to my townhome on Records and, I kid you not, it
made me feel like I was driving into an apartment complex that I patrolled in San
Bernardino. Quality of care. The ability for them to manage it and the day-to-day attention
went away almost immediately and, quite honestly, that's what I suspect will happen when
they build these beautiful apartments and it brings a lot of revenue to the city, but it's going
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to be short sighted and it's ultimately going to have a negative effect on our home values
and the potential homeowners driving into Movado Way to look at the Movado at Meridian
as a -- as a place to buy a home and not just simply rent an apartment . Those people --
they are transient. They don't care. They are going to live there for three months, six
months, a year and there is no harm in that, but there -- that's not a way to establish any
kind of pride of ownership. They don't own it. They don't care. They are going to live
and move on. And the last point that I think is important to make -- I mentioned that not
only the residents of those apartments, but also in the Village and the Movado
Subdivision, those children are going to be potentially shipped to Ustick and Black Cat,
miles and miles away, because they are overfilling or are loading up the school zone and
those students are not going to be able to fit in those classrooms in our own
neighborhood. So, it's something I'm going to ask you to consider. Just, please, realize
that we are looking at the long term. We are looking at -- as homeowners investing into
our future and long-term stay in that community and -- and, I'm sorry, I believe that the
profitability of those 88 units -- it's purely about money, it's about profit, and they are not
looking about the future, they are not looking at the quality of life that we are trying to
achieve that I think that -- the city and the planning and the establishment of that planned
community that is Movado at Meridian offered, because if I had the chance to buy after I
learned about these apartments, I seriously would have bought someplace else. I would
not have invested my money in that subdivision. I would ask you basically -- the only
thing hard about that -- get down at the street level, think like a resident of that community
as a homeowner and think about what you will feel that those apartments and what that
density would mean to you as a homeowner if you lived there. Any questions at all?
De Weerd: Thank you, Michael. Any questions from Council?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Just one. I think -- I found your two letters in September -- end of September
and mid November --
Fletcher: Thank you. Yes.
Borton: -- that you and your wife sent in and -- and one of the things that you raised, both
in your written testimony and your testimony today, was with regards to the increase in
traffic and one of the elements of this project -- and we hear it in others -- is the -- the
existing potential traffic that would be created by its existing approved use , even at the
time when you bought your -- your -- your property. Commercial traffic that would be
generated were it to be built out versus what's proposed here and the applicant made
reference to some of these objective trip count analysis of the -- the existing traffic count
of 1,100 trips a day, approximately, with its commercial approval and maybe it's
counterintuitive, but the -- the residential apartment as proposed is less than half --
De Weerd: Your time is up, Mr. Borton. Sorry.
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Borton: You should give me a time. I appreciate you bringing up the point, but -- but --
so, when we are looking and considering that point , we look at these objective studies,
which talk about trip generation from residential versus commercial --
Fletcher: Sure.
Borton: -- and so we see on one side what appears to be data that shows, better or
worse, this type of change, looking at traffic by itself, decreases traffic in the status quo
by half. So, my question is if that's what the data that we are presented, is there any data
that supports -- that you are aware of that supports that alternate position that -- that says
the residents -- the residential component would actually create more traffic than the
existing commercial approval and what would be the citation of that data? Because I
have never seen it.
Fletcher: Thank you for the question. I'm going to apply some basic logic and some --
maybe some assumptions. But I would think that those 200 families living in those
apartments, if all 194 or 196 are built, is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, not only
living there, but having guests coming over for birthday parties , playing in the pool -- it's
going to be constant around the clock and the fact is if there is going to be some traffic
there at that intersection that my family and my neighbors can enjoy, like a pub -- a sports
-- you know, bar and grill, a dry cleaners, you know, those things, that's all right, because
those compliment the several hundred homeowners that have invested in that long term
plan and see that as a long term residence to live in. You know, if that makes any sense
to you whatsoever. It's like -- it's the services. It's going to bring things that will make my
quality -- quality of life better. Something I can ride my bike to. I can't ride my bike up
over Eagle over the freeway to go, you know, to a restaurant on the north side of the
freeway. That's just not safe. It's not logical. Nor is there anything really other than
maybe three restaurants that serve food of some kind in the southeast quadrant of
Overland at Eagle Road. So, I would say that if you look at adding commercial property,
which it was already zoned for and anticipated for and people were given the opportunity
to understand that what was coming was commercial , it's going to generate revenue for
the city, it's going to give a quality of life and it's going to enhance the people that are
living there and 112 apartments, like I said, it's acceptable, it's already there, they have
got lumber there, they are going to build. I don't believe it's fair to take what was planned
to be services or service oriented businesses that were going to support us as a
community of homeowners and just simply replacing it with more and more apartments
and putting it right up on that corner. I certainly am glad I didn't buy on Vasheron, because
I would have two or three story apartment buildings and people standing out on their park
-- you know, patio looking at their towels dripping off from the pool or drinking beer while
I'm sitting in my backyard trying to have a barbecue with my family and that -- that affects
privacy and that type of quality of life and moving that driveway back south, you know, if
you look at Movado Way, the entrance at Movado, there is a large rock column. It's -- it's
kind of like the gateway, the entrance of our subdivision, and now you are pushing an
apartment complex, an exit closer to that and more traffic. As a law enforcement officer I
worked traffic accidents. It's common sense going to tell you there is going to be a lot of
in and out traffic, somebody's going to come off of Overland onto Movado Way and all of
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a sudden I have to stop what I'm doing to allow somebody to pull out of an apartment
complex or a kid or maybe a school bus picking kids up in the morning and I believe it's
going to create some kind of a construction of you and that's going to become a hazard
all in itself.
Borton: Thank you.
Fletcher: So --
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you.
Fletcher: Thank you, ma'am.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is --
De Weerd: Okay. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if we could have a little decorum in
the -- in the room and no applause.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is Clarence Orton. Clarence.
Orton: I guess that's me.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your name
and address for the record.
Orton: Thank you, Madam Mayor and City Council. My name is Clarence Orton. I live
at 4090 East LeCoultre in the Movado Estates. I would support the previous gentleman's
statement about not just traffic, but -- car traffic, but people traffic. When you put that
many people that high of density that close, they are not just going to recreate around the
block where they live, they are going to impact everybody that's around them and they
are going to -- they are going to walk in with their pets and everything else into the
surrounding development. So, I think it's not just car traffic, but people traffic is going to
impact it. One of my biggest beefs that I was going to bring up here tonight, but -- it
probably has to do with all developments in Meridian and that is parking requirements.
There is one development right on the northwest corner of Movado Estates where the --
the density was so high that they approved two story buildings and the garage and the
entrance into the garage, that is the front of the house. A two car driveway. That is there
is no parking on the street or anywhere else for these people to park and so what's
happened is is that the overflow from that development is now parking on t he Movado
Estates streets. I realize they are ACHD streets and we don't own them, but now just
because of that high density and the lack of parking , they are parking out on -- into the
Movado Estates development, which is impacting me and so I don't object to this high of
density on the -- on the Movado Way and would hope that you would leave that to go
back to commercial.
De Weerd: Thank you.
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Orton: Any questions?
De Weerd: No questions.
Orton: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is Kevin Johnson.
K.Johnson: Hi there. I'm Kevin Johnson. 4171 South -- no. East -- oh, that's the old
address. East Divide Pass Street. We have only been there six months. We lived in
South Meridian for 12 years, moved five miles away to this beautiful new home. I pull out
a picture. I will show you the house. It's gorgeous. And now -- so, I'm really worried
about this. We have -- everyone is saying high density. Mr. Parsons talked about high
density. These folks are talking about high density. This is a staff -- these are facts from
realtor.com. I can share the URL with you, but a high density of renters increases the
property -- or decreases the property value by 13.8 percent. Are you telling me that I
have to take a 13 -- a 13 percent hit on the value of my home? That's unacceptable.
That's totally unacceptable. Let me ask you this. Rhetorical question, because it's
probably not Q&A; right? How about we put an apartment complex near your homes.
Good? Or no? Of course no. You don't want that. All right. Here is the other thing. High
density. That number of people increases crime; right? That's a fact. You know it. Now,
our common areas are very nice. They are going to come and use our common a reas.
They are going to -- they are going to have their common areas, but, guess what, they
are going to share our common areas and I will tell you what's going to happen with traffic,
going out Overland is almost impossible in rush hour and rush hour is like -- it seems to
be all day long now. So, what's going to happen is they are going to leave their subdivision
and come through ours, so they can get to the two lights either off Eagle or off Overland
and so what that is, that -- those 367 parking lots, which have cars, are going to start
going through our neighborhoods. All right ? And, again, that is one hundred percent
unacceptable. We are already seeing an impact today, right, with just simple things. Two
hundred more people there, 300, whatever the -- the number of people -- whatever the
number of cars, it is one hundred percent unacceptable. I don't want -- I don't want one
percent loss to my housing value; right? That is unacceptable. I know some of you guys
are leaving, your -- you know, you have -- you have nothing to lose. You can vote for this
and there is no ramifications; right? We are not going to vote you out next time, because
you are gone. So, please, don't do this. Don't do this to me. Don't do this stuff. Thanks.
De Weerd: Sir, I guess I -- I just want to say we are elected officials and we take our
responsibilities very serious, whether we have four more years or four more weeks , we
take our responsibility very serious and I take issue with you saying that we have nothing
at stake. We do. We care about this community deeply and I hope you don't think that
we take our responsibilities lightly.
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K.Johnson: Actually, ma'am, no, I -- so, just for the record, sitting here and watching the
process has been engaging. I have been absolutely enjoying it here. Way better than
watching TV at home. So, thank you for that -- for including me in this process. I don't
think that -- my worry is that, you know --
Bernt: I get it.
K.Johnson: Yeah.
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Madam Mayor. While I have you up -- I might -- obviously, I know where this is
located, but I'm not familiar with the surrounding part of what he's talking about , the --
where traffic may or may not be going -- where the two streetlights that he's referring to.
Can you go to Google Earth for us, Bill, and show us what he's talking about?
Parsons: So, Madam Mayor and Councilman Bernt, this is the exhibit the applicant
provided, but it shows you the -- how traffic disperses throughout the area and that's --
when I look at ACHD's staff report -- so I will touch on the previous gentleman's comments
about whether or not 55 -- the one that was part of the plan and -- or not and what the
timing was for that. So, again, when this project came through with phase one and phase
two, it was the same developer that brought the project before you. Phase one was a
comp plan amendment, annexation, to develop the 312 unit apartment complex with that
concept plan that you saw. A traffic study was required for that. Part of that traffic study
said that there was going to be over 2,000 trips generated for the 312 apartment complex.
As part of ACHD's analysis it did mention that an access -- only eight percent of the traffic
was going to be using the Cloverdale access if one was built or required by the city. It
wasn't required. They felt the traffic study and ACHD's staff supported that most of the
traffic would go on Overland or head to the west through Silverstone and that's why when
you see this graphic here, that's what the applicant is portraying. There was two stub
streets. It disperses. So, currently there is multiple ways through Silverstone to get out
to Overland and to Eagle Road. I believe this is a signalized -- this is a signalized
intersection here and this is now a signalized intersection as well. So, anyone -- I don't
-- I'm not a traffic engineer, but I'm not sure why you want to take -- turn that left out onto
Overland Road at rush hour when you can go to the light and get out a lot safer. And
these streets are designed and built to handle the trips that were proposed for not only
the apartments, but for the residential that's occurring now. So, there is an update with
the Movado plat that was over 400 residential units, plus the apartments, and so all of
that was taken into account and all of the -- even though it's not a continuous collector
through the development or an access out to Cloverdale, it was analyzed at all of the
adjacent streets and the connectivity was adequate to -- to handle the additional trips, not
only for the apartments, but also the single family that's developed out there. Now, as far
as to the timelines for this development, again, Conger came in September 6th, 2016.
The apartments were approved for 312 units. Jim later -- Mr. Conger later came in about
two months after that approval and got his Movado Subdivision, whi ch had the 55 and
older component, which at the time the apartments actually abutted the 55 and older
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components. So, it was actually -- there wasn't even a buffer between the uses. There
was going to be a ten foot and those apartments were going to be next to the 55 and older
component and, then, approximately a year later he amended the plan to reduce the unit
counts and he added the single family homes that are in front of the 55 and older
component currently and reduced the -- the multi-family from the 312 down to 112. So,
within roughly about a -- less than a year and a half time span the developer changed his
mind and came back and modified this plan, but, again, the apartments, the 55 and older
community, the attached homes and the other -- I guess the affordable housing
component for the development and, then, estate lots that are south of -- that terminate
at the end of Movado Way were all part of that masterplanned residential community,
along with the commercial. So, again, this was all contemplated. Even though it may
have come back with different iterations, it was all contemplated that it would be integrated
in sharing these roadways.
De Weerd: I guess in all fairness, until you build your house you don't really look and by
then it is --
Parsons: Correct. Yeah. Madam Mayor, that's -- I think that's something that we struggle
with a lot of times where we -- we always want the apartments to go in first, so that the
neighborhood knows -- in this case that happened, but, then, the plan changed and the
developer came back and did something less intense and now we are here going back
the other way.
De Weerd: Right. Mr. Bernt, did that answer your question and did you have a question
for Clarence?
Bernt: Madam Mayor, I have a question -- a follow-up question for -- for you, sir. Using
the mouse, in your opinion where do you think the traffic is going to go ?
K.Johnson: So -- sorry. So, right now the Overland -- we got Movado Way. So, right
here is where the estates are.
Bernt: Yeah.
K.Johnson: This is where the Village is.
Bernt: Right.
K.Johnson: So, if -- this road right here is what's going to be used. So, this is what takes
you out to the signal or it's going to be a combination of here to here to Copper Point and,
then, out to either here or -- this is what -- actually where the other signal is. So, actually
-- well. So, sometimes I go this way. I can tell you when I leave I always go to the signal,
because trying to make a left onto Overland right here is -- you will sit there for ten
minutes. I mean you will sit there for ten minutes easy. So, I know what I do and that's
the path of least resistance. I would almost guarantee you that people will start using
these residential streets to get out. We are not getting less traffic, we are only getting
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more; right? So -- and I don't care what ACHD says, traffic is bad. I mean it's getting
bad. You know it. We drive it every day. It's crazy.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: To -- to sound like a broken record by doubling down on what -- what Bill said
and Mr. Bernt -- that's the point. The whole thing was designed to -- to give people an
opportunity to densely reside in that brown section there that hasn't been fully built out
yet and to be able to access the enormous employment centers and food services and
the hotels, the gas stations, all this stuff was all meant to be able to not have to get onto
an arterial road and still be able to access all that. I mean you can get from your house
or from there all the way out to -- to Mojos, to Jack-in-the-Box, all these places with only
having to cross Eagle Road at that -- that light. I -- I went to Mountain View High School.
The San Francisco Sourdough Eatery, the Brace Company, went in hidden into this office
complex and survived and now they are surrounded by ample retail, but the only way that
-- that those services -- the -- the dry cleaners and the other companies continue to come
there and to serve this area without you having to go onto an arterial road to get to them ,
is if there is more people there to justify additional commercial. The reason all this stuff
is going on the other side of -- of Overland -- ICCU with their office building and -- and the
golf place -- is all because there is planned dense residential there, so that people can
access all these things without having to drive all the way across town and risk additional
time on these dangerous roads. So, we get that, yes, it's going to push more traffic in
your neighborhood, but that was the idea.
K.Johnson: Can I -- can I comment?
De Weerd: Did you have a question?
K.Johnson: Do you have -- I don't know if I'm allowed to --
De Weerd: Absolutely.
K.Johnson: Thank you. Is -- is that everyone's habit? I mean is that what people do? I
-- I don't go to any of those places. I typically go across the way. I go to my favorite
places; right? Our habits are not to go to the closest place because it's convenient. I
mean people might live in those apartments and might work there , but chances are that's
not going to happen. They are going to live in Boise or they are going to live -work in
Boise. I work in Boise. I work downtown. Right? I mean I just don't know if that -- you
know, the thought is right, the plan sounds good, it's sound, but I don't know if that's what
is the reality of what's going to happen. Right? I think it's going to push more people out
to Overland.
De Weerd: Thank you for being here tonight.
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K.Johnson: Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is David Rognlie.
De Weerd: Thank you for sticking with us. If you will, please, start your name and
address.
Rognlie: I'm Dave Rognlie. Live at 4291 East Blueberry Lane in Movado Village.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Rognlie: The gated community. And like Michael had to say and the fellow here, who I
don't know, there is a -- there is a lot of -- we bought the home long distance. We moved
from Boise -- or from Meridian to -- out to the coast, knew we would be moving back at
some point. Had a death in the family. Came back. Our family said, oh, look at this cute
little house in this little gated community, you know, and you are getting old, dad. You are
going to -- you are going to fall down and hurt yourself if you don't -- you know, so why
don't you come back and look at this and so we -- they took us through, we got -- kind of
fell in love with the place. There was -- there was ample reason for us to do it now, rather
than later, when we are older, and et cetera, et cetera. We asked about -- some of these
questions about what was going out on the street . Overland. It was commercial was
going out there. Nobody said anything about apartments. Maybe we were oversold and
been underdelivered, but we -- that's what we knew. That's what we were told. So , now
we hear about all this and we are -- we are a little unhappy. We moved back and decided,
you know, this was going to be the last home we bought, you know. We will just live there
forever. Our kids are right close by. No reason to, you know, have to buy another house
and go through all of this sort of stuff. We downsized considerably and I hadn't thought
of it this way until listening to some of the neighbors, because in the gated community
you're seniors, a lot of them -- most of them and we still got another 70 or 80 homes worth
to put in there and people started mentioning the little byline, yeah, this is our forever
home. This is our forever home. This is -- we bought it so we wouldn't have to do this
again. We wouldn't have to -- you know, be put through the wringer of having to move
and all that sort of stuff and, you know, as nice as the -- as the salesman pitch that we
heard was -- was about, you know, all of this development and stuff, if we had known it
before, of course, we probably wouldn't have lived there and it's -- it does -- you have to
consider the human factor. We are -- you know, we -- we live there. You can't -- I lived
out in Kuna at the time when we lived here before. We lived here for 37 years. The
question was always, when putting in all those stoplights out along the -- Highway 69,
how many people do have to kill before they will put in a stoplight. That was always the
comment that -- that came about. Well, we are going to get one at Overland in --
somewhere, sometime, which means somewhere between tomorrow and eternity, I
presume. But it doesn't help us out. We try and --
De Weerd: Sir, can you -- can you summarize.
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Rognlie: We try and get out of there and -- get out of there alive, because that -- that's
the biggest thing between the density of population and the traffic to be able to get in and
out. Otherwise, you take all the back streets like was just pointed out, which are little two
lane streets and there is parking on some of them and so -- so, think about the human
factor.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Rognlie: Beautiful place. I really love -- we love Meridian. We moved back to Meridian
and we are happy to be here. I just hope it works out.
De Weerd: Thank you. I'm going to call a ten minute recess and so we will reconvene at
9:30.
(Recess: 9:16 p.m. to 9:29 p.m.)
De Weerd: Okay. I will go ahead and call this meeting back to order. Thank you for your
indulgence. We needed to -- to take a quick break. Mr. Clerk, who is the next one signed
up to testify?
Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Next is Joann Gormley.
De Weerd: Thank you for joining us. If you will, please --
Gormley: Joann Gormley.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Gormley: I'm at 4372 Vacheron.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Gormley: So, I am directly behind what's happening. I moved after 50 years. This was
the first townhome in that division, so I was the first one who moved in and seeing the
west apartments I did ask a lot of questions about what was behind us. I was told
adamantly commercial and lo and behold within two weeks I received a letter. So , I was
not real happy and my complaint with your traffic issues partly is everyone's leaving if
you're in apartments in the morning and coming back in the evenin g. A dentist's office --
there isn't going to be 200 people pulling in there at the same time. Or a coffee shop.
And I have a daughter-in-law who teaches and the schools are already overwhelmed and
to make them more overwhelmed, I feel bad for people who have to bus their small
children. I don't think that's right. So, I'm basically not happy with it and that's the extent
of that. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
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Johnson: Madam Mayor, next is Blake Haggett. Mr. Haggett left. Tamara Hall.
De Weerd: If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Hall: Tamara Hall and I live at 4299 East Goldstone and that's in Movado Estates. So,
there is three portions of the subdivision, obviously, and we -- we live in the estates. We
were the first home that was built in there. We spent over half a million dollars for this
home and we did our due diligence, we knew exactly what was going on. We knew there
was going to be the Village, which was gated. We knew there was going to be the Greens,
which were duplexes. We knew there was going to be apartments on the one side and
we were fine with all that and we knew there was commercial up front, which we were
very excited about it was going to complement our neighborhood. That's why we made
the decision where you live. Especially the schools. We have a ten year old at home and
we wanted him in specific schools. Now knowing that that could potentially change and
my child could be bused to a different school, breaks my heart. It's scary on our roads as
is and that second phase hasn't even been built for Zack Evans Homes on the estate side
with no entrance coming off a Cloverdale and only really the main entryway being Movado
Way. It's scary. I take my kid to the bus stop every day and people don't stop at the stop
signs that are already in the structure. So, I'm concerned in general with the new phase
that Zach is going to be doing and, then, with potentially these apartments that are going
to be happening, that's going to bring a lot of traffic, because our little side roads, they are
not big enough to funnel cars in and out of . I mean they are, but they are lined and they
are very small. It's not the main roadway into our subdivision. Those are pretty much my
bullet point issues that I have, is that, you know, I know that it's -- as homeowners we
have to do our due diligence and we have to pay attention to what we are doing and what
we are getting ourselves into. It's not just a real estate agent . And we did that. So, I'm
just a little bit bummed that we bought where we wanted to live , we loved what we seen
and to find out that now it could potentially be apartments that are going to be gating our
community. So, with that I would just hope that you can take that into conside ration.
Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor? Tamara. Sorry.
De Weerd: Tamara. Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Before you get too far. Madam Mayor, Tamara, what are the elementary
and middle schools that are the closest to you that your son should be going to per
location?
Hall: So, it's Pepper Ridge that he should be going to, but we actually -- he goes to
Spalding. So, we have two different elementary school buses that come into that . But
he is supposed to be going to Lewis and Clark and, then, he's originally supposed to be
going to Mountain View and we just moved four miles down to downsize and we stayed
in that general location, because those were the schools we wanted him to go to and,
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then, now that West Ada has basically stated that the -- the density with the kids is
potentially becoming a problem with overcrowded and they are going to possibly bus
these kids to other schools, doesn't make me very happy. I mean it's just -- that's
something we didn't -- we didn't foresee happening. You think your kids that are in that
neighborhood are going to go to the school and we know that boundaries can change,
they always do, and that's fine, but those schools are typically right in th at general area,
not way out. So, that -- that's concerning.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Hall: You bet. Any more questions?
De Weerd: No.
Hall: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, that was the last of the people indicating they wished to testify.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This is a public hearing. Is there additional testimony?
In the back and, then, we will get the gentleman in the front.
Spryn: Good evening.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you for hanging with us.
Spryn: Sure.
De Weerd: If you will, please, state your name and address.
Spryn: My name is Robert Spryn. I live at 2052 South Gedalio Way in the Village at
Meridian. I just want to share some of the sentiments that I'm hearing here tonight. One
of the things -- I just relocated here and I had a choice of moving anywhere I wanted to
and I picked this place, because of what it was and because of what I thought it was going
to be. Now hearing that it is going to be different, I have to rethink the possibilities of
whether I'm staying or I'm going to go someplace else, because I am concerned about
the traffic, just the density and all that. It's interesting the compelling argument that the
-- that they made earlier today about how good everything is going to be , yet when they
did submit to us and present to us on two separate occasions that I was there and I hear
four happened, they said to us we would walk away if we knew you guys were opposed
to this. We won't do this. And we are only doing --
Bernt: I'm sorry, what did you say?
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Spryn: They said that they would walk away from the whole deal if they heard that the
residents were opposed to this. The people that are in this room that said those
comments and they didn't. Obviously, they came back with a totally compelling argument
the other way, simply I think to satisfy some investors in southern California from what I
understand. So, it's really not -- the money is not going to stay here, it's going to go to
other investors outside of the area and that's -- that's a little bit concerning. The school
situation. I know you guys received a letter from the school board, I believe, saying that,
you know, they are already overcrowded. It's going to be a problem. You are going to
have kids in the neighborhood being bused. I feel bad for those parents that have to do
that and I think it's concerning that -- that kind of stuff is -- is going to get ignored. What
it did here is the -- the sense of community that we get when we are in a development
that has neighbors and homeowners, which is something that you don't really get in an
apartment building. There is really no sense of ownership there. People come and go. I
have done that myself. I have relocated a few times. When you are in an apartment
building, you are just there and you have that blank stare, you don't make eye contact
when you go by your neighbors. In our neighborhood we all know each other. I know
most of these people in the room right now and, quite frankly, there is only about, you
know, ten percent of us here. If everybody did show up that was opposed to this, this
room would be almost full. If everybody showed up that eventually will build there, you
wouldn't have room for everybody in here to oppose what is being proposed to you right
now and I just want to make those comments and I did send a letter and submit that to
you on two separate occasions with some other concerns in there as well.
De Weerd: Thank you for joining us.
Spryn: Thank you.
De Weerd: Sir. Good evening.
Turner: Good evening. My name is Bruce Turner. I am at 4055 East Goldstone and I
wanted to just touch on a couple of things, as the one lady did. You know, you had asked
the question about the -- the use and that's kind of what -- oh, I got to -- I got to get up. I
promised my wife I wouldn't. But I said, no, no, no. Because it's just like she was saying,
you know, a doctor's office, they come in four cars and four cars all day long. That might
add up to be 2,000 cars during the day and that's great, but getting all those people out
-- more importantly I think you have heard and maybe get a sense from the community
that we have been lied to by the cabal of Devco, Evans and Evans, and BlackRock as to
what was actually going to be there and, then, I think they knew all along, because
originally some of the ACHD documents from October 2016, that one you had up, they
had indicated at that time that it was a nice idea to have the water fountains off during the
-- yeah. Their letter of October 10th, 2016, said that -- that Eagle and Overland, and
Eagle and Silverstone, were near capacity. That's in 2016. So, we know things have only
gotten worse. Another light, as many people suggested, would probably take away -- but
if you look at the development, you know, the bigger map and if you could bring up that
one from October, I think it is, 2016, the original one. Originally the apartments had a
road --
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De Weerd: Sir, I need you to speak into the microphone, so we can get you on the record.
But the screen is right in front of you.
Turner: Oh. Pardon me.
De Weerd: And you have a little mouse there that -- when he gets there you can --
Turner: So, originally, as I understand from the ACHD documents -- and maybe I got it
wrong and I'm sure things have changed since then, but there was this road over here to
the -- to my far left, right here, that was coming out and, then, connecting. So, this area
down here is the Villages. So, they originally had an exit where they could come out this
way -- boy, that's hard. Man, that's -- you know come out this way and, then, exit that
way. Now they are coming out to Movado. Okay? Coming back through the
neighborhood. I had a chance to speak to the -- the officer during the break a little bit,
too, and pleaded with him with the troubles we are having in our neighborhood , it's not
well planned there. You know, there -- I would go back to change it to 20 for the -- cul-
de-sacs or whatever, because our houses are so close together, as Monty said, there is
just a driveway and maybe six feet and a driveway on the two stories. So , consequently,
when people -- they can't park on the street, so they are parking in these other areas. So,
they are parking in front of the mailbox, they are parking on the corners, they are parking
all over the place and, you know, I think I have become good friends with some of their
parking enforcement people, you know, to have them come out, as well as some of our
other neighbors, although I must honestly say, as I told him, we have stopped calling,
because it's of no use. You know, we can't control commercial vehicles. A guy who cuts
lawns also cuts -- you know, or plows snow. So, now he's got a plow system set out there
for, you know, four or five days at a time. But my only request would be that I would ask
you to punish the cabal of Evans-Evans, BlackRock and Devco and tell them no, you
know, they knew some of this stuff was coming. The apartments were supposed to go
up with phase one -- phase one of Movado, but they didn't, you know, because they knew
it would hurt sales --
De Weerd: You need to summarize.
Turner: -- of Movado. Okay. That's -- my summary would be, please, punish Devco,
Evans and Evans, you know, for their lying to us, if for no other reason. Questions?
De Weerd: Thank you, sir.
Turner: Thanks.
De Weerd: Any additional testimony? Chief, did you sign up?
Lavey: Madam Mayor, I did with Chris. Just to remind you and Council back when this
project originally came forward a few years ago , I testified against it for traffic and
connectivity issues, because of the traffic that was -- would go into Muirwoods and there
was talk about an exit off to Cloverdale and that has since been eliminated and for the
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record I live close to that area, so I have opportunity to drive by it at least twice a day and
we have already created a mess there and I see near collisions every single day at
Movado. Movado needs a traffic signal. I don't care what the data numbers say, the
number of traffic, it needs a traffic signal and if you look at how the apartment complex is
currently laid out, those residents are not going to go through the subdivision to get out
to the signals, at least until they learn it, because it's a difficult track and if you drive
through those subdivisions you drive on narrow streets , you have got cars parked on both
sides. It's not smooth. I have personally driven it. It's not easy until you learn how to find
those signals. So, we already have a mess. So, don't add more density to it. But looking
at the current proposal, you are only talking about four more units, I believe. So, I -- I
think the mess was already created. I don't think you can make it worse. You have
already done it. Sorry. You have. And I don't know what's going to fix it, but you do need
to -- if nothing else personally drive it there and experience it, like the residents are saying,
because it's a mess. I don't have a position on what you should do today. I just want you
to know that it's already bad, just don't make it worse, so --
De Weerd: Any additional testimony? Good evening.
H.Johnson: Good evening, Madam Mayor, City Council. My name is Hillary Johnson. I
live at 4171 East Divide Pass in Estates and it is my understanding that they are not
adding -- their proposal is not to add four more units or eight more units, their proposal is
to change it from what it currently is and what we bought into, which was commercial. So,
we knew that there was going to be apartment units and commercial. So, my husband
and I raised our kids in Meridian and we bought in good faith in this neighborhood when
we wanted to downsize and I just ask that you keep it what we bought into . Commercial.
That's all.
De Weerd: Thank you.
H.Johnson: Questions?
De Weerd: I'm sorry. If you will sit down and we will first see if there is any additional
testimony and if Council would like to have you up again. Any additional testimony?
Council, do you want to hear from Justin from Ada County Highway District? I would.
Hey, Justin, come on down. Good evening.
Lucas: Good evening, Madam Mayor, Members of Council. My name is Justin Lucas. I
represent the Ada County Highway District. Our business address 3775 Adam Street in
Garden City, Idaho.
De Weerd: Thank you. And I know you have been listening to the concerns of the traffic
challenges of getting onto Overland and -- and what -- what and when a light is warranted.
Perhaps you can address that first.
Lucas: Absolutely, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. It's my understanding that
when the overall Movado Subdivision master plan was originally approved, that a traffic
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signal was anticipated at that location when traffic signal warrants are met. It's been said
tonight it's a numbers game and that's why ACHD has requested that the applicant
perform a signal warrant analysis to determine if those warrants have been met and it is
now the correct time to install that signal. I don't off the top of my head know the financial
responsibility of that signal. I imagine it's the applicant. I'm sure they know. I haven't --
I didn't do the research based on this application before you tonight related to that,
because it's actually a separate approval, but I can certainly provide you that information.
It's really irrelevant who pays for it. Either way it will be put in when the -- when the
warrants are met. You have heard opinions on that tonight and I have nothing to -- no
further information to provide related to those opinions.
De Weerd: That was a good non-answer. Council, any specific questions for Justin?
Okay. Nothing he can specifically answer. Okay. Thank you.
Lucas: Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Fletcher wanted to make additional comments. Council?
Fletcher: I just wanted to clarify --
De Weerd: You can't talk until you get to the microphone and restate your name for the
record.
Fletcher: Again this is Michael Fletcher, a resident of Movado. No disrespect to you,
chief. I wanted to clarify. It's -- they are wanting to take away commercial and add 84 --
or 88 more apartments to that -- to that corner. That -- that's just a lot and I -- for the
record I just wanted to be clear on what they are ultimately wanting to add . The 112 I
believe as a community we all agree and we -- we accept that. It's the additional 84 plus
apartments that we are really caught up on. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Appreciate that clarification. Any additional testimony? Okay.
Would the applicant like to close?
Nelson: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Nelson: Mayor. Members of City Council. Deborah Nelson again for the applicant. I will
try to keep these in sequence, but forgive me if I bounce around a little bit to respond to
the comments. Schools. There was comments about concern with busing, particularly
at the elementary level, but we do have a letter from West Ada that talks about the
capacities of schools. The elementary school of Pepperidge actually has capacity. I know
you guys are well aware that your Mountain View High School is well over capacity and
that Owyhee High School is coming. The timing is great for that, because it's going to be
online August 2021, which would be before the buildout of these projects that we are
asking for. So, the timing will work great for the high school there. Also I just -- just
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another comment about schools. These are one and two bedroom apartments. They are
going to have a low impact on -- on school age children anyway. There is an A and a B
site plan option before you and Bill's memo addresses that, that staff had a preference
towards A, just because it puts the parking on the interior of the site, not on the exterior.
We would agree. Either one is fine, though. There was a comment that we are adding
more density, but we are not adding density, we are actually decreasing density just very
slightly and we are reducing the traffic trips. As was noted by Councilman Palmer, I mean
that is the purpose of these roads and Bill described that, too, of the -- the dispersement
through these back roads is a part of why the city always requires connectivity is to allow
those options. But I also just wanted to make the point that was -- was not mentioned
that when there is commercial trips they are also dispersed and we are going to have
fewer trips with apartments than commercial. So, the concern about dispersement
through the neighborhoods is reduced from this -- this use versus a commercial use.
There was concern -- well, those were at different times and that's true, different uses
have different intensities. The most intense time that ACHD tracks is p.m. peak time and
the p.m. peak time, using that same example that we talked about before of 84 apartments
versus 47,000 square feet of a mixed use, primarily office, not even high retail, would be
37 p.m. peak trips for apartments and 121 for the commercial mix. So , the busiest time
on the neighboring roads is going to be most impacted by commercial uses. There was
discussion about concern about visibility around the island by moving the -- the access
road further to the south. ACHD actually went out and looked at that and determined that
vision was not a safety hazard there. There was discussion about there is only a couple
of restaurants that can be walked to in the neighborhood. Just done a quick search of
Google Maps looking at the area. Within .9 miles we came up with 16. All around the --
the site on Overland, at the Overland and Eagle intersection, and in the immediate
commercial next door. So, that's quite a list. I won't read it to you . Let me get back up
here to my notes. There is a lot of -- continuing on that commercial theme, people desire
commercial in their neighborhood. I get that. I mean I think that's why we are pointing to
the great walkability and bikeability, because people want that. There was discussion of
wouldn't it be great if we had a coffee shop or a dry cleaner. But I want to remind you that
what's there now is 6.7 acres of unutilized commercial. So , a neighbor's desire for that
doesn't make the market drive to that. It doesn't make the market develop. The
commercial -- particularly when all the commercial has developed adjacent to it . This is
a great place to put the rooftops to support that existing commercial and we are still
leaving -- let me find the acres -- 1.5 acres there. Still a further opportunity to find those
uses -- the neighborhood uses. 6.7 isn't getting developed now. There will still be a
commercial pad of 1.5 to try to bring in those additional uses , whether that can be retail
or is more appropriate for office remains to be driven by the market and that's the actual
use. This -- this -- this project here, instead of that theoretical desire for what the
neighbors want, here is an actual use that is being brought to you that is consistent with
your comp plan. Less than 20 units per acre is appropriate . It's well within the six per 40
and it's appropriate for all the reasons that staff has said that they are supporting this.
One final point. You know, there is a lot of discussion about those people that live in
apartments and not wanting them near us. But I think it's really important to remember
who those people are. They are residents of your city that by necessity or choice need
of housing that is more affordable or appropriate for where they are in their stage of life.
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There are children that just graduated from school and they have their first job . There are
young couples starting out saving for a downpayment to buy a house. They are elderly
people on a fixed income. They are people that want a lifestyle to where they can walk
to their employment, that they choose this specifically because it's next to employment,
because they don't want to drive to downtown Boise. So , I mean it's appropriate for the
city to think about housing for all and I live in one of those neighborhoods that I showed
you an example of that has apartments right next to it in Summerset. I enjoy having them
there. I think that that could provide transitional housing for the neighb orhood. I lived in
apartments before. Never have a concern about them being in my neighborhood and I
hope that you don't have a concern about them being in your city. So , with that I would
stand for questions.
De Weerd: Council, questions?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Deb, were are you on the -- the signal study, when is that going to be finished?
Just at least talked a little bit about it, who is ultimately responsible for the cost of the
construction if it's warranted. Help get me kind of up to date on that.
Nelson: Madam Mayor, Council Member Cavener, we have actually already hired
Kittelson & Associates and begun the work and submitted preliminary data to ACHD, but
they want some additional data. So, it's not required until we are pulling -- pulling building
permits, but we have already gotten started on that. But we don't have the results that
have been accepted by ACHD at this point. They want some additional analysis. As --
part of what ACHD is going to look at is the data, the numbers about whether it's
warranted. They are also going to look at allocation and funding, whether that's funded
with their budget, a combination of contributions, but we have a condition of approval in
our conditions from ACHD, which we accept, that requires us to provide that study before
the building permit can be pulled and also to participate in whatever signalization is
required.
Cavener: Madam Mayor? Can you summarize the -- the results of the initial summary
that was sent to ACHD that seemed to support construction of a signalized intersection
there on Movado?
Nelson: Madam Mayor, Council Member Cavener, no, not at this time. It's just preliminary
at this time.
Cavener: Thank you.
De Weerd: Any other questions? Okay. Thank you.
Nelson: Thank you.
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De Weerd: So, Council, any additional information from staff or any of the others that
have testified? Would you care to have a discussion before closing the public hearing or
are you ready to close the public hearing?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: It's difficult for me to talk tonight, my apologies, but as is often the case when
we close the public hearing inevitably something triggers the need to open it, so I think it
-- at least for the short term let's keep it open in case we need to pull extra information
from somebody. Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I'm happy to chime in, at least get the conversation started. When you look at
this kind of presented as a plat in front of you or when we are looking at our computer
and you try and take a look at it as for me anyways as where it sits as a whole and , then,
where it sits within kind of the neighborhood where it sits in Meridian and overall I actually
-- I really like this project a lot. There are some concerns in terms of -- I think that are
really valid and for those of you in attendance, man, our heart goes out to you. We -- we
oftentimes get the brunt when you purchase a piece of property and whoever is selling it
to you tells you one thing and you get before us it is completely different. That's the worst.
And I have got some ideas for our new Mayor and Council that I think we need to embrace
to stop that and nip that in the bud, because we are hearing about it more and more.
When you look at it from a piece for me, I think it -- I think it fits. I think if you are going to
have high density, have it out there on Overland that's going to get on the interstate, that
seems appropriate to me. The piece about the schools, though, is also concerning to a
degree. You know, we have got to think about a thousand -- capacity for about a thousand
students right now districtwide from the last, you know, sheet the district provided us. The
frustration is for folks that, again, buy into it with the understanding, hey, we are going to
send my kids to this particular school. No, that's not the case. This Council has heard
many times -- and I -- I was -- I changed elementary schools three times in five years
without having to move and I grew up here in Meridian. When I lived -- lived on Cherry
Lane and Locust Grove and I was bused to Cloverdale between McMillan and Chinden,
passed four other elementary schools. That wasn't easy. So, I think there is a certain
expectation when we purchase a home the intention of being able to send our kids to that
particular school. So, I got some other ideas on that. But it all goes back to -- in the
comments from the citizens about what it's like to live there. Now, I don't think it was
intended, but this assumption about those people being apartment people . Appreciate,
Deb, you saying that. Many of us talk about this time and again. I was an apartment
person. We are a community that has diverse housing. Diverse housing needs there is
going to be people who live in big houses and small houses and apartments and houses
with big yards and houses on smaller yards. That's what makes our community great.
So, I don't think there was any intent to disparage people who live in apartments. That
said, I could also understand, oh, it's going to be a change. To me what it boils down to,
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for me, is Movado and if -- if that is not a signalized intersection, the points about folks
driving through the neighborhood to get out, I think that is correct, and so I support
everything about this if we had the answer about what's going to happen on Movado.
Without that it's hard for me to say emphatically, yes, I'm going to support this. It's not
always easy to be the guy that says the thing that's counter to what the folks in front of
you say and I appreciate the testimony tonight. I have really tried to listen, to address
what the concerns are. That said, come -- the only guy that lives on the south side, so
the comments about restaurants, man, I'm with you. I love Sakana, but we need some
other things there and we need them fast and I would love to see, you know, a bunch of
different restaurants there. The applicant has tried to do that. They are trying something
else. It's hard for me to get in the way of that, just because that is also something that I
want. But we need that in south Meridian and I hope that somewhere soon we will see
more of that. Those are my two cents. Keep the change.
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor. Councilman Cavener, I think you said that very very well.
Those are my concerns as well and I don't know how long it takes to find out the
information on a signal. I don't like the thought of pushing something out, but to me that
signal potentially makes a world of difference, because every one that has been up here
has talked about traffic issues, including our chief that drives by there at least twice a day.
And so I don't know if there is any time frame on that, but I think that's information that
could make a difference.
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Madam Mayor. And I think if it's denied and, then, you don't build anything, there
is certainly not going to be a signal put in. The whole portion confused me. I mean,
obviously, having a signal there would be great. But if nothing gets built there, no signal
goes in -- I mean if -- if this is still short of warrantying one, then, they are certainly
nowhere near getting one. So, it has to be the traffic there for the people who control the
roads to decide there needs to be a light there.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, if I may.
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Council Member Palmer, you are -- you are correct, but I guess for me if there
is not going to be a signalized intersection that I don't think I'm in support of this project.
So, you are correct, if it's not built, there is no signalized intersection, but if ACHD says
even with this development a signalized intersection isn't warranted , I'm really struggling
to understand how this benefits our community if it's built.
De Weerd: I guess I have sat up here long enough to see all kinds of things , but I put
myself in the neighbors' seat and say when I -- when the first building went up and this
was apartments and office and now you are saying it should be all apartments, that -- that
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changes things and it's -- it's good to have a planned community and -- and people know
what's coming. They didn't know this was coming. So , that's my first issue. I think that
if this had been there beforehand and it was obvious it was all apartments, this is the
perfect place for that. It really is. Along a transportation corridor. I agree with Mr.
Cavener. But it wasn't. This was apartments and office and -- and now it's changing and
it will change the dynamic of a community in that area. You also look at the rest of that
area, it's also transitional. I mean you are going to have other places that you can put
apartments. This is not the one and only place. What is concerning is it comes in in 2016
as a high density area and, then, a year later they decide, um, well, that hasn't changed
anything, so we are going to change it and now they are changing it a third time in three
years. I'm sorry, I have seen a lot of land in Meridian sit there for a while for the right
project and when you look at all the potential out there, there is potential for some -- some
neighborhood office and neighborhood commercial that -- that can support the residential
that resides just behind it. I -- I don't see a compelling reason to change this again
because in two years they haven't been able to find someone to build office when there
is a lot of land around there to do certain things. There is concern about the -- the lack of
circulation and where these cars would go and -- and certainly I, too, have concern about
the -- the traffic light and the timing, but approving this just to get a traffic light is not the
great reason to -- to be making a decision in -- in that -- in that fashion. So, those are --
you can keep the change on that one, too.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: If we were to base decisions -- all of the land use decisions before us on whether
or not that development may increase traffic or have some level of effect on the rest of
our lives in the 16 years you have been here that we have doubled the population, should
have been in fighting the growth. However, every single person that testified that I believe
-- forgive me if I miss somebody that lives there moved there recently. I have spent almost
my whole life in south Meridian. The population of Meridian when I was born here was
9,000. It's now 115, 120 thousand p lus. Every single person that's moved here has had
an effect on my day-to-day life. But I welcome you to Meridian and I -- I mean I have said
this over and over and over for the last four years I have been here. The reason I was
able to -- to be raised in Meridian and, then, stay in Meridian was because there was
diverse housing options for us. Shortly after my wife and I got married and we were going
to have twins a little bit -- a year after we were married we had two kids and we weren't
going to be buying a house and so we lived in -- in some apartments when I first ran and,
then, we were able to buy a small house that was built in the '80s. A thousand square
feet. And, then, now we are in -- have four kids, a larger house, thanks to Corey Barton
building affordable starter homes and I'm able to be back in south Meridian, which was
my whole goal growing up was I want to live back in south Meridian and raise my family
there. So, Meridian is the same place that it was for me growing up, it's just bigger. There
is more people, there is more cars, there is more restaurants, there is more jobs. I work
in Meridian. I make sure I stay where I'm at, because I get to get on the freeway going
the other direction and get off at Ten Mile. I'm only one exit away from my job and that's
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thanks to a big open piece of land that somebody was willing to develop. There is four
story apartments there. There is also five story office buildings, prevent -- make it so I
don't have to drive to Eagle anymore, to be part of the Eagle Road traffic to get to work
anymore. But the only way all those things keep happening when people are able to stay
in Meridian, we -- the term I hear from you often, Mayor, is all the traffic goes through
Meridian, but we want to try to capture some trips, especially to be able to have
opportunities for people to not have to leave Meridian and that exists now and it's growing
and this is just another step in ensuring that that continues. I mean all of this planning
and the whole -- the whole point of this comes down to whether it warrants a traffic light ,
then -- I mean maybe come back with another version with an extra 50 apartments and
see if that warrants a traffic light to warrant approval. The reality is the peak time, whether
it's commercial or residential, the science, the reality is that it's going to be less traffic and
eventually more stuff will be built there if this doesn't warrant a traffic light and, then, get
it done.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other comments? Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: And I will be brief, really. I'm pretty much in agreement with what my colleagues
have said. I don't have really too much to add to the discussion. For me we hear time
and time again we don't want apartments here. We don't want apartments there.
Apartments are terrible. I don't -- and I understand where those concerns come from.
However, there are places in our city and throughout different municipalities where I
believe apartments work and I believe this is one of the areas . I think that if you were to
just look at this -- at this picture here in front of us, not looking at everything that's around
it, knowing that Eagle is here, Overland is right there, the freeway is right there, a ton of
commercial, this area completely makes sense for what is proposed, in my opinion. The
only thing that I -- that I am concerned with and the only reason why I'm not in support of
this, is -- is the traffic signal. I'm very familiar with that area of our city and I have driven
by there early in the morning when I'm getting my flooring crews ready. I drive passed
there all the time and it is a mess. It's an absolute mess. And whether it's comme rcial,
whether it's apartments, there needs to be a light there. There needs to be a light there
right now. The only difference is the applicant is asking us to amend the development
agreement to -- to change the -- what was originally proposed and so it's giving us an
opportunity to say, hey, if you want apartments there, build a -- put in a traffic light. So, I
mean that's -- that's one of the -- you know, that's just -- that's one of the options that we
have and so I'm okay with this if there is a traffic light there. So, that's my -- that's my
opinion.
De Weerd: Any other comments? Okay. What would you like to do?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I will be real brief. The -- the overarching concern that I had with this -- and I
think all of my colleagues bring up great points that I do agree with , but I think Madam
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Mayor's comments with regards to the -- the cadence of change has been pretty rapid
and -- and I'm not comfortable, in light of the swiftness of the switch over those three
years that you cited and Mr. Parsons had cited. So, I think the change that occurred in
December of 2017 changing this to commercial on reliance of the -- of the neighboring
community that that's what it was going to be, is what's appropriate for me right now. So,
at this stage I don't think the change in the DA is appropriate.
De Weerd: So, Council, looking for direction.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I think our public hearing is still open.
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Cavener: I'm just curious. Got a question maybe for Deb, if she's available, about this
traffic signal piece. Sorry. So, you -- you have heard some of the conversation where
Council's kind of view on this and -- and it really being contingent on if there is going to
be a signalized intersection that's going to be warranted. With that in mind , should this
be continued to a future date and time , how much time would you need? Do you
anticipate you would need to be able to get that analysis review back from ACHD to give
you a definitive answer?
Nelson: Madam Mayor, Council Member Cavener, I will give you as much of an answer
as I can and, then, see if Rob has anything to add. ACHD has already reviewed and
approved the project with a condition of approval that binds us to provide the warrant
analysis and, then, contribute to the signal. So, they control when a signal is warranted.
We don't. You don't. So, I appreciate that you have an application before you and a
decision that you can approve or deny. I'm not saying you don't have control over it. I'm
just saying that, you know, what we have before you is a condition of approval that does
require the signal to move forward and our contribution towards that signal when it's
warranted. But they are going to make that decision. We are already on the hook as
much as we are going to be on the hook and the timing that they set forth for that was
before there is a building permit. So, you will have control over it before there is any
activity that could lead to any increased traffic at the signal. So, the -- the timing for that
-- because they have got to review and approve it by then. That doesn't mean there is a
signal built by then. I understand. But that is the timing that we are forced on is before
we can have a building permit they have to review and approve our signal analysis . Then
they are going to make a decision about whether a signal is warranted. That's not a -- I
know it's now a satisfactory answer, because I don't have -- I don't have their time frame
and my control. I know just further details of what we have in our control. Our traffic
engineer thought he would have the study done by December 20 th, but these guys have
a December 15th deadline -- by the way, this is not the same applicant as before. The
same developer as before, just so that's clear. There seemed to be some confusion about
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that. So, these guys have an opportunity to do this project. It seems like a good fit. Their
-- but their due diligence deadline ends December 15 th. So, unless you have -- do you
have anything to add to that?
Powell: No. And that's -- that due diligence period has been extended twice already.
I'm not super positive we can get another extension. So, that's just the reality of it. I'm
not --
De Weerd: Thank you.
Nelson: You're welcome.
Parsons: Mayor, Council, if I may, if you had a chance to look at the e-mail that was
submitted today from Christy Little kind of explaining the scenario. So, one, they
submitted some data to them and they said it was insuffucient, so they have to provide
more information. And, then, they said a couple things have to happen here. So, they
said after we receive the required information our engineers will determine if a signal is
warranted. If it is warranted, do we really want another signal in that location, because
there is already -- they look at spacing from the Cloverdale intersection to where that
current one was built into Rackham and, then, the one at Eagle. So, they have spacing
requirements for signals and even -- so, that's the other requirement if they want one and
when the -- the third part of it is if it's warranted and they want one in that location, then,
the applicant -- I don't believe it's the intention to put it in, I think they pay their
proportionate share or contribute money towards the signal. So, regardless if this is
approved tonight or not, it won't -- a signal is not going to go in probably until such time
as ACHD has the funding or widens the road to seven lanes in the future. So, what the
applicant is going to do is put up a proportionate share for ten years or whatever the time
frame is and it's going to sit there collecting interest and if it doesn't happen in ten years
they get their money back. So, at least I wanted to daylight that. There is -- there may
not -- not even be a requirement for a signal, we just don't know at this point. So, if a
signal is something that you're hanging your hat on, I don't know -- you may as well just
go with your -- the original and just deny it if you think a signal is warranted, because we
don't know if it's going to happen and if that happens I don't see the applicant moving
forward with that conditional use modification either, because it's -- it's a moot point at this
juncture. It -- they need this first before they can have Council -- or Commission take
action on the conditional use permit. So, I just wanted -- I just wanted to shed some light
on that for you this evening, that it may be a signal and it may not, we -- we just don't
know at this point. And I can let you know when I was at the Planning and Zoning
Commission a couple of weeks ago processing the continuance, I know some of our
Commission was concerned about the timing for the signal as well.
Nelson: Madam Mayor, may I -- thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council.
While we don't know if we will be able to get an extension, I guess we would prefer the
opportunity to try, rather than an outright denial. So, if that helps to -- with your decision,
if there is more information from ACHD that would be helpful, we would like the opportunity
to try to collect what information would be helpful for your decision. Thank you.
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Little Roberts: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: For me it would be very helpful to have more information on the signal, so
I would move that we postpone and wait closing on the hearing until we have more
information.
Cavener: On the signal. Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I think what I'm hearing from Council Member Little Roberts is maybe close the
public hearing, but still take written testimony and continue it to a future date -- I don't
know if we can continue it to a to be determined date, to allow the applicant to have further
communication with the highway district related to the question of if a signal is warranted
-- if it's warranted does ACHD want it. If it's warranted and ACHD wants it, who is going
to pay for it and when it would be constructed. Those are a lot of questions. Those are
big questions -- questions that I don't know if we are going to have an answer a week
from now, a month from now. To Bill's comments ten years from now. So, that -- that's
the part that I'm wrestling my -- my head around. So, I assume -- I think that's what you
were trying to get to, I just want to make sure that we are clear.
De Weerd: I don't think you can close the public hearing and to expect only written
testimony when we will get new testimony or new information that we will need to take
testimony on. So, I think your options are to continue this to a date certain and hope there
is information by that time or I guess the other option is to close the public hearing and
take action tonight.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: If those are our options, then, I prefer the former, as opposed to the latter.
De Weerd: Well, either way we go I just need a motion.
Cavener: Madam Mayor -- and I guess that's -- that's still the question I have is to what
would that be? The last thing that I want to do to these residents is to continue it for 30
days to have them come back 30 days later and say, oh, we are still waiting to hear from
the highway district, we will see it another month. That's -- that's not fair to them. So, I'm
looking for a lot of experts in the room to give me some signal about how far out we would
want to continue this out to, so we are accurate to the folks that are here in the room. If
nobody can do that then -- and another reason perhaps maybe a denial would be
warranted.
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Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor -- and maybe just a suggestion I guess. Our time is short in the
year. I recognize there is probably some challenges with the highway district and others
in trying to get information. If this Council wants to have at least the opportunity to -- to
make a decision on this, you could set it to January 7th, we could put it as old business.
I know we are trying to not have a lot of things on that night, but we wouldn't have any
other public hearings that I'm aware of at the moment and at least you would have the
opportunity -- again, I think Ms. Nelson and the applicant can at least report back progress
if they have an answer or something more definitive at that point. If they don't, then, it's
going to be the next council's decision regardless.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: To move this process along, I move that we continue Item 9-H, application H-
2019-0099 to January 7th.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to continue this to January 7th, 2020. Maybe
we will have 20/20 vision; right? There you go. All those in favor say aye. Any opposed?
Bernt: Nay.
De Weerd: Okay. The ayes have it. We will see you January 7th.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE NAY. ONE ABSENT.
I. Legal Department and Clerk's Office: Discussion
Regarding Timeline for Alcohol Sales License Renewals
De Weerd: Okay. Item 9-I is under our Legal Department and Clerk's Office and a
discussion about timeline for alcohol sale -- sales license renewals.
Nary: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. I will try to keep this under an
hour. Just kidding. Recently Nancy Radford from the clerk's office, who is our licensing
specialist, and I attended a meeting with both the state police, as well as Ada county and
all of the cities within Ada county to discuss the licensing process and how it varies from
city to city and how -- how we can make a more streamlined system and it more efficient
for the -- the alcohol licensees within the county. All licenses for alcohol, beer, and wine
go through the state of Idaho initially. They have to be issued by the state. They, then,
go to the county next for issuance and, then, they come to the city. The process currently
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is that all of the licenses for alcohol, beer, and wine expire on April 30th of each year.
Except for the city of Boise. The city of Boise expires on December 31st of each year,
which they realize actually doesn't work very well. So, what the state police asked is
would the counties and the cities consider altering the dates , because what happens --
and we have found this many many times here and it appears to be happening countywide
-- is that with all of those dates simultaneously ending, it is a scramble for some of these
businesses to get all of their approvals done , so that on May 1st they can still serve
alcohol. Right now it's -- we have not had very often the case where someone has missed
it. We have had occasions. Many times it's their own doing. But -- but that crunch for
the state is very problematic, because it is a state requirement. So, the entire state of
Idaho expires on April 30th, all alcohol, beer, and wine licenses. So, the state has to
process them all in that month and, then, they have to get to the county and, then, they
have to get to the city. The county requires approval by the county commissioners. The
city does not. Or at least our city does not. Some of the other cities do. The city council
doesn't have to approve every beer and wine or alcohol license. So, we have a little bit
faster process, but we are the tail end of that process. So, what the state police has
asked is the cities would consider and the county would consider moving their date, so
that the state would end on April 30th, the county's expires on May 31st, and, then, the
cities would expire on June 30th. That way there would be a little bit more orderliness for
the customers. They could get the state all completed and, then, have up to a month to
get the county's process completed. They would, then, have another month to get the
cities' process completed. If -- this would be more efficient for us. This is something
Nancy has expressed and discussed previously, that we would like to have a different
date, that it is a big crunch. Obviously, we would have some communication plan if that's
a recommendation of this Council to move forward, to contact our customers and let them
know that what we would be planning on doing is in April of 2020 we would issue them a
14 month license, so that would -- their license would be good for 14 months for the -- for
the first year and, then, from that point on it would be an annual license. This would have
no impact on the cost, because the fees are set by the state. So, whether we issue a one
year license or a 14 month license, the price is the same. So, there is no -- there is no
impact, positive or negative, to the customers or the city. The cost is the same. Again,
timelines it would be much more efficient to separate these dates out and moving the
county and moving the city is much more -- much simpler than trying to get the legislature
to move the date for the entire state. So, we think it's a -- something worth exploring. I
have looked at our ordinance, I have talked to Mrs. Kane, who drafted our ordinance, we
both are in agreement. It does not require an ordinance change to do this. It doesn't
require a fee change to do this, it requires simply notice to our customers and we have to
change the documents that are required to be filled out . But it's a fairly simple internal
change administratively to do again. Again, I will work with the clerk's office on what kind
of notice and how we would let our customers know. I guarantee you there will still be
people on June 28th trying to get their license approved, because that's how some people
roll, but I think it would be a much better efficient system for our customers. We have
over 150 alcohol, beer and wine licenses in the city and they grow right now approximately
at the rate of about seven per year on the alcohol side. Beer and wine does not have a
limitation. So, we are only going to grow in that area as we get larger. In case you didn't
know, every 1,500 people we add a license a year. So, six or seven, do the math, that
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tells you how many people we are adding per year. I don't see that slowing anytime soon.
So, if you are okay with it, we can move forward with developing the communications and
move forward to do this in 2020.
De Weerd: I think it's an awesome idea.
Nary: I will take that collective nod as a go ahead. Great. Thank you.
Item 10: Ordinances
A. Ordinance 19-1863: An Ordinance Amending Meridian City
Code Section 4-2-1, Regarding Definitions; Adding A New
Section, Meridian City Code Section 4-2-2(C), Regarding
Maintenance Of Public Trees On Public Rights Of Way Adjacent
To Private Property; Amending Meridian City Code Section 4-2-
3(D), Regarding Abatement Of Nuisance Trees; Repealing Title
13, Chapter 1, Meridian City Code, The Meridian Forestry
Ordinance; Adding A New Section, Meridian City Code Section
13-2-11, Regarding Establishment And Duties Of The City
Arborist
B. Ordinance No. 19-1856: An Ordinance Adding Meridian City
Code Section 6-2-8(D), Regarding Dogs Off Leash in a Public
Place; Adopting a Savings Clause; and Providing an Effective
Date
De Weerd: Okay. Item 10-B, since we vacated A, is Ordinance 19-1856. Mr. Clerk, will
you, please, read this for the first reading and I would recommend to Council to have a
second reading next week while Council Member Milam is here. Okay. Mr. Clerk.
Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. It's an ordinance adding Meridian City Code
Section 6-2-8(D), regarding dogs off leash in a public place; adopting a savings clause;
and providing an effective date.
C. Ordinance 19-1862: An Ordinance Amending Meridian City
Code Section 7-2-2(B), Regarding Prohibited Parking;
Amending Meridian City Code Section 7-2-5(A)(3), Regarding
Parking On Public Streets Other Than Alleys; Adding A New
Section, Meridian City Code Section 1-2-1(C), Regarding Failure
To Pay Infraction Fine
De Weerd: Okay. Item 10-C is Ordinance 19-1862. Mr. Clerk.
Nary: Madam Mayor --
De Weerd: Oh, we have kind of vacated this or --
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Nary: Madam Mayor, since -- since the direction was to bring forward the UDC discussion
into January, I would suggest we simply vacate this now, because we would prefer to do
them at least somewhat coincidental -- or consecutively, so that it would make more sense
for the public.
De Weerd: Exactly.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Rich, is asking to maybe approach the podium . He sat through --
De Weerd: Okay.
Cavener: -- a lengthy conversation, if you are okay to --
De Weerd: I thought he was just intrigued with our -- our whole process and wanted to
participate in it.
Everett: Absolutely. Learning experience. I thought there might be some confusion with
this. So, this is a separate ordinance. This is an ordinance amendment to Title 7, which
is our parking code on public streets. It has nothing to do with our earlier discussion about
the UDC. This is a -- an amendment that was brought before you by me about six months
ago. We discussed it and, then, it fell through the cracks and we didn't bring it for the
public reading, we didn't put it on the agenda and , then, I realized we were losing some
of our Council and our Mayor and I better get this before the current body, so you are still
familiar with the items we talked about and this is a slight amendment to the -- to Title 7,
so we can issue parking tickets in the instances that are outlined in this amendment and
that's, essentially, for double parking, fictitious plates, and to issue tickets when vehicles
are parked in front of a fire hydrant. Right now we can't issue those citations if the driver
is still sitting in the car. So, they could sit in front of a fire hydrant, they can sit in the
crosswalk, they could sit in these places -- if they are in the car they can sit there all day
long and the amendment makes it to where they can only do that if they are actively
loading or unloading a passenger. So --
De Weerd: Thank you.
Everett: -- any questions on that?
Everett: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. So, Mr. Clerk, will you, please, read this by title.
Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. An ordinance amending Meridian City Code,
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Section 7-2-2(b), regarding prohibited parking; amending Meridian City Code, Section 7-
2-5(a)(3), regarding parking on public streets other than alleys; adding a new section,
Meridian City Code, Section 1-2-1(c), regarding failure to pay infraction fine.
De Weerd: Okay. You -- I was going to say you have heard this read by title, anyone
want to hear it read in its entirety, but I am assuming not. Okay. Council, do you want to
take action on this one tonight?
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: I move that we approve Ordinance 19-1862 with suspension of rules.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 10-C. Any discussion? Mr.
Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, absent; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea;
Bernt, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
D. Ordinance No. 19-1865: An Ordinance (H-2019-0066 – Millbrae
Subdivision) For Annexation Of A Parcel Of Land Located In The
SE ¼ Of The SE ¼ Of Section 4, Township 3 North, Range 1
West, Boise Meridian, Ada County, Idaho, As Described In
Attachment "A" And Annexing Certain Lands And Territory,
Situated In Ada County, Idaho, And Adjacent And Contiguous To
The Corporate Limits Of The City Of Meridian As Requested By
The City Of Meridian; Establishing And Determining The Land
Use Zoning Classification Of 38.15 Acres Of Land From RUT To
R-8 (Medium Density Residential) Zoning District In The
Meridian City Code; Providing That Copies Of This Ordinance
Shall Be Filed With The Ada County Assessor, The Ada County
Recorder, And The Idaho State Tax Commission, As Required
By Law; And Providing For A Summary Of The Ordinance; And
Providing For A Waiver Of The Reading Rules; And Providing
An Effective Date
De Weerd: Item 10-D is Ordinance 19-1865. Mr. Clerk, will you, please, read this by title.
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Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. An ordinance related to H-2019-0066, Millbrae
Subdivision, for annexation of a parcel of land located in the SE ¼ of the SE ¼ of Section
4, Township 3 North, Range 1 West, Boise meridian, Ada county, Idaho, as described in
Attachment "A" and annexing certain lands and territory, situated in Ada county, Idaho,
and adjacent and contiguous to the corporate limits of the City of Meridian as requested
by the City of Meridian; establishing and determining the land use zoning classification of
38.15 acres of land from RUT to R-8 (Medium Density Residential) zoning district in the
Meridian City Code; providing that copies of this ordinance shall be filed with the Ada
County Assessor, the Ada County Recorder, and the Idaho State Tax Commission, as
required by law; and providing for a summary of the ordinance; and providing for a waiver
of the reading rules; and providing an effective date.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Council, do I have a motion?
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor, I move that we approve Ordinance No. 19-1865 with
suspension of rules.
Bernt: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 10-D. If there is no discussion,
Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, absent; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea;
Bernt, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Item 11 : Future Meeting Topics
De Weerd: Okay. Anything under future meeting topics?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Two items coming out of tonight's public hearing. One is a conversation
amongst -- again, whether its current Council or new Council, about improvements to our
neighborhood meeting process and whether that should involve a neutral third party, staff,
somebody who has no ties to the neighborhood or no ties to the developer, that can --
any more accurately report what occurs in the neighborhood meetings. I feel like more
and more we are hearing from both the developer and the neighbors that their account
and depiction that meetings are polar opposites and it's -- we have got to find a more
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equitable way to have a good understanding about what's occurring in those meetings,
both for the neighbors' benefit and the applicants' benefit. So, I don't know if that's now
or future council, but that's something I hope that you all that are here now or in the future
can discuss. The second piece that relates to that is -- and maybe this is a conversation
for staff -- ways that we can delineate on an application or for the public to understand
that when they are -- if they are buying a piece of property in a certain part of town, what
potential school or schools that development can support. We are seeing more and more
-- I'm sure you are hearing about this as well. I move into a neighborhood , there is a
school in my neighborhood and I'm not going to that school and I don't know how we can
help our citizens so that they have a good understanding about that they might not go to
the school that's in their neighborhood and what that process looks like. So, I don't have
the answer to that, but we heard testimony that tonight, I have had three calls in the past
six or seven weeks with concerns from folks that are saying you got to be kidding me, I
just bought a house and I can't go to the school that I can see from my back door. Got to
find a better way.
De Weerd: That's going to be a difficult one, but I have met with Dr. Reynolds and -- and
we are looking at -- trying to look at a date for February to get a joint meeting between
the Council and the school board and that might be a really good topic to have.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, to that point -- and, obviously, what you and Mayor Elect
Simison want to discuss with her, I hope that those future meetings are more of an
opportunity for the trustees and the Council Members to engage with each other. The
last two have been very presentation heavy and I think the information that's conveyed in
those presentations could be accomplished at a school board meeting or a City Council
meeting. It's good information for us to have , but I didn't see a lot of -- as much of a
benefit of having it being presented to us jointly as having the opportunity to really engage
with each other on some of these issues and talk through them. So , less is more.
De Weerd: And that actually would be a good discussion to have.
Cavener: Thank you.
De Weerd: That's why I brought it up. Any other? So, we will -- it will probably be good
to have that discussion with the incoming council and maybe Mr. Clerk and our attorney
can come up with ideas. Certainly it would probably be a cost that would be passed onto
the development.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I agree with you. I think it will be. And I'm not saying it's up to
me to do now, but I think it's -- the conversation needs to occur. Honestly, if -- if I'm an
applicant and the public is coming and testifying that is counter to what I have said , I
would gladly pay that to have a neutral third party say, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not what
occurred and here is the reality.
De Weerd: Or you have it taped and ascribed.
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Cavener: However -- correct. And I think these are all conversations about what makes
sense --
De Weerd: Right.
Cavener: -- with each group. We have got to improve that process.
De Weerd: Perfect. Okay. If there is nothing further, I would entertain a motion to adjourn.
Cavener: I move we adjourn the meeting.
Bernt: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. And all those in favor say aye. All
ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:43 P.M.
(AUDIO FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
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