HomeMy WebLinkAbout2019-11-26 Regular Meeting MinutesMeridian City Council November 26, 2019.
A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:05 p.m., Tuesday,
November 26, 2019, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Tammy de Weerd, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Genesis Milam, Ty
Palmer, Anne Little Roberts and Treg Bernt.
Also Present: Chris Johnson, Ted Baird, Caleb Hood, Brian McClure, Kyle Radek, Brian
Caldwell, Joe Bongiorno and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
X__ Anne Little Roberts X_ _ _Joe Borton
X__ Ty Palmer X__ Treg Bernt
__X___Genesis Milam __X___Lucas Cavener
__X__ Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: Are we ready? Okay. Sorry for the few minutes delay. We need some kind
of break between our work session and our regular session. Thank you for joining us this
evening. For the record it is Tuesday, November 26. It's five after 6:00. We will start with
roll call attendance.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is our Pledge of Allegiance. If you will all rise and join us in the
pledge to our flag.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation by Steve Moore of Ten Mile Christian Church
De Weerd: Item 3 is the community invocation. Tonight we will be led by Pastor Steve
Moore with Ten Mile Christian Church. If you will all join us in our community invocation
or take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection. Welcome, Pastor Moore.
Moore: Thank you. Honored to be here. Our Father who is in Heaven, this week,
especially, we are grateful for the history that our nation has and the wisdom of our leaders
to call us to have a day out of our calendar year to recognize how blessed we are and to
have a sense of gratitude. God, we -- we really are grateful for your good gifts, for your
consistency and that you have blessed us with things that we tend to take for granted,
but, nevertheless, are so valuable to us. God specifically we thank you this evening for
the -- the quarter of a century or so of service that Mayor Tammy has given this community
and in this season of gratitude I pray that you would bless her as she devotes more time
to her family and -- and we are grateful for her influence, that it will live on. We pray for
our new Mayor Robert and that you, God, will begin to lead him and -- and a team and a
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transition that's so important for our community, for our city. I thank you for these Council
Members and I -- I pray, God, the awesome responsibility they have and the explosive
growth that our community is -- is experiencing to just manage all of that, God, because
so easily growth can become the enemy of growth and I just pray that they would have
wisdom, that you would guide their decisions, all the things they have to balance and
factors that many communities are never faced with, they are faced with -- overwhelmed
with. Pray for the decisions tonight that it will just truly be good for -- for our community
and for us as citizens. Pray that we would -- you would put within us a desire to live as
citizens and contribute what we can, all of us working together. We give you the glory,
God, for the difference you have made in our lives, in Jesus' name, amen.
Item 4: Adoption of Agenda
De Weerd: Thank you. And Happy Thanksgiving. Okay. Item 4 is adoption of the
agenda.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: There were no changes, so I move we adopt the agenda as published.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as published. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Announcements
De Weerd: Upcoming announcements. We will be closed on Thanksgiving and the day
after. So, we wish you all a Thanksgiving -- a Happy Thanksgiving and, then, on
December 6th, a week from Friday, we have our winterland parade and Christmas Tree
lighting. It starts at 6:00 p.m. and we would love to have you join us. Any other
announcements by Council?
Item 6: Future Meeting Topics - Public Forum (Up to 30 Minutes Maximum)
De Weerd: Okay. Item 6 under future meeting topics for public forum. Mr. Clerk, any
signups?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, we have one sign-up. Mr. Steven Hunt.
De Weerd: Good evening and thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your
name and address for the record.
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Hunt: Right. My name is Steven Hunt. I reside at 5031 West Ravenscroft Street,
Meridian, Idaho. 83646.
De Weerd: Thank you. And can you pull that microphone a little closer. Thank you.
Hunt: Sure. I can do that. I'm here to talk to you tonight about the growth that was
mentioned in the invocation. On the corner of Cherry Lane and Black Cat Road there are
two new subdivisions going on -- going in. One is called Burlingame Subdivision, the
other one is called Milbrae. The Milbrae Subdivision is being developed by a developer
who works normally with CBH Homes and all of those homes I am under the
understanding will be built as zoned and will be sold as single family dwellings, but it's
been brought to my attention that in the Burlingame Subdivision, which is being developed
by AMH Burlingame Development, which is America Homes For Rent. America Homes
For Rent has a profile and that profile states they don't build homes to sell them, they buy
or build and rent or lease. When this subdivision was first brought to the attention of the
surrounding homeowners in this area, there was no talk about building a subdivision
where all the homes would be for rent. It was not disclosed if that was the case. It's also
been brought to my attention that the same developer has two more subdivisions
underway here in Meridian. So, what I'm asking for tonight is that someone from the staff,
from Planning and Zoning, assist me in educating not only the people surrounding
Burlingame Subdivision, all of those subdivisions, but the people surrounding the other
two subdivisions that -- is my understanding that are being developed by this developer
and to clarify, if my fears are correct in that the company profile is they don't build homes
for sale, they build homes for rent.
De Weerd: Thank you for bringing this to our attention and certainly this is a public forum,
so we can't have a dialogue, but I would suggest we put this on next week's agenda, so
we can have a discussion and ask staff maybe to bring back and our Legal to bring back
-- when we do multi-family we know it is for rent. When we do single family we are not
told it's for rent. If this subdivision -- or if this Council approves something because they
know it is a rental subdivision, then, that's a deliberation and it's purposeful and there
appears to be a difference. So, I guess we should have a dialogue next week and Legal
and Planning can both bring information pertinent to this topic.
Hunt: So, going one step further, then, all subdivisions are required to have a
homeowner's association. The current homeowners associations that I'm aware of -- and
I'm the past president of Turnberry Crossing Homeowners Association -- do not allow
renters to even vote at homeowners association meetings, because they don't own the
property. So, if this is, in fact, the case, then, the owner of the property, who would be
someone who is on the board of directors for a homeowner's association, has to live in
the subdivision. Almost every single CC&R in -- in Meridian, Idaho, states that. You can't
be on the board of directors of the HOA if you don't live in the subdivision.
De Weerd: Well, certainly we can have some of what you have discovered in talking with
staff that this can be a conversation -- if we post it on the agenda we can have a
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conversation about it. So, thank you for bringing it and -- and we hope you will join us
next week as well.
Hunt: I certainly will. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. And that was the only sign-up?
Johnson: That was the only sign-up, Madam Mayor.
Item 7: Action Items.
A. Resolution 19:2177: A Resolution to appoint the Youth
Commissioners to the following City Commissions: Brian
Fitzgerald to the Historic Preservation Commission; Logan
Cloninger to the Meridian Arts Commission; Isabel Kav to
the Solid Waste Advisory Commission; and Joseph Leckie to
the Meridian Transportation Commission.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Item 7 is under Action Items. 7-A is Resolution 19-
2177. These are resolutions to appoint our youth commissioners and I do know that -- I
see one -- two. I even have my glasses on. How about that. So, as I look for your
direction from Council, then, I would love to call both Logan and Isabel up and have them
make any comments if -- if they would like to introduce themselves to Council and add
anything additional to that. Council, I would stand for any questions that -- I'm really
excited about the youth commissioners. They all are bringing a passion and an interest
to those areas that they will be serving on and would love your approval.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I move that we approve Resolution 19-2177.
Bernt: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the resolution under Item 7-A. Mr.
Clerk, will you call roll?
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
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De Weerd: I will ask Isabel if she would like to come up. So, Isabel is passionate about
our Solid Waste Advisory Commission. Tom came and talked to our youth council and he
actually inspired several of our MYAC members to step up and say we want to be part of
this. But Isabel had such a great deal of passion and could talk about different parts of
the country that she has witnessed different recycling practices. She's excited to bring
that expertise to this commission. Welcome. And if you want to introduce a little bit about
yourself.
Kav: My name is Isabel Kav. I --
De Weerd: You want to pull that a little closer to you?
Kav: Yes.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Kav: My name is Isabel Kav. I am currently a junior at Renaissance High School. I was
born in Oregon. Have lived in Baltimore, Maryland, here, and Fort Worth, Texas since
then and do a lot of traveling. So, as Madam Mayor mentioned, I have seen a lot of
different recycling programs across the country and I am very excited to help institute and
help grow the current recycling program here in Meridian with the Solid Waste Advisory
Commission.
De Weerd: And just to note that she has an interest in -- in pursuing this beyond high
school. Hopefully we don't damper that passion, but, instead, fuel that, because we need
a lot more solutions and we appreciate your passion. Council, any questions?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I have been the -- the liaison to the Solid Waste Advisory Commission for the last
six years and I know the Council's very excited to have you on board. It's great to have
you at the meeting yesterday. I'm sorry that I'm not going to be around next year, but I
know whoever -- whoever you are going to be working with will be very supportive of the
-- of the Commission and I just want to welcome you and tell you they are really, really
excited to have you.
De Weerd: Yes. And -- and as I told you in our interview, your voice is -- is equal and it's
important and we welcome you to our Solid Waste Advisory Commission.
Kay: Thank you.
De Weerd: And thank you to your dad for accompanying you. Okay. Our next youth
commissioner that's here is Logan. You want to come up. So, equally, Logan has a lot
of passion about the Arts Commission. He started the arts -- an arts group at
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Renaissance High School and has engaged them. They have done fundraising material
-- or fundraising activities to -- to promote certain forms of art, to buy supplies, and excited
to have you and your passion on our Arts Commission. You want to introduce yourself,
Logan?
Cloninger: I'm -- I'm Logan. I go to Renaissance High School. I'm also a junior and I'm
very passionate about art. I am founder and president of my school's art club and I'm just
really passionate. I also participate in other Meridian Arts Commission events, like Art
Week and promote that throughout my school and I just think it's a really great opportunity
and I look forward to working with hopefully all of you in the near future.
De Weerd: And he is an artist himself. So, welcome, Logan. Any questions from Council?
And our Arts Commission liaison, is that Councilman Borton?
Borton: It is.
De Weerd: He looks forward to working with you. Just speaking on his behalf. Thank
you, Logan. Okay. And I don't see any of our other youth commissioners. Did I miss
someone? Okay. Thank you. You don't have to stay for the whole meeting. But you can
if you want to. It's riveting.
B. Acceptance of Ada County's Canvass of the Votes for the
Results of November 5, 2019 Meridian General City Election
De Weerd: Okay. Item 7-B is an acceptance of the Ada County canvas for the votes for
the results of November 5th's general election. Mr. Clerk.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, I put the results from the Ada county clerk in the packet and I
believe we are just required to have a vote accepting those results.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I move that we accept the Ada county canvas of the votes for the November 5th,
2019, election.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 7-B. Is there any discussion?
Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, absent; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea;
Bernt, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
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MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
C. Public Hearing: Proposed Winter /Spring 2020 Fee Schedule of
the Meridian Parks and Recreation Department
De Weerd: Item 7-C is a public hearing on our Winter-Spring 2020 Fee Schedule.
Garrett, thank you for joining us.
White: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, thanks for having me. In front of you you
have the Winter-Spring 2020 fees for our guide. That's tentatively set to come out
December 6th, the day of our Christmas parade, as you guys mentioned before in your
announcements. With that I will stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Council, any questions? Okay. Thank you.
White: Thank you.
De Weerd: This is a public hearing. Is there any member of the public who would like to
offer testimony on this item? Was there any sign-ups?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there was one sign-up, but I believe he may have been here
for something else. James Hunter.
De Weerd: We love getting testimony on our fee schedule.
Hunter: I know. Thank you very much. Yeah. I inadvertently clicked the wrong thing.
So, I was here for 7-E, but I understand testimony is closed, so I accidentally pressed 7-
C. So, no testimony from me.
De Weerd: That's great. I was really excited. We actually got someone to testify. It was
pickleball, wasn't it? I mean that is what we get most our comments on, so -- Garrett, any
further comments? Okay. Council, any questions that you have or comments? If not, I
would entertain a motion to close the public hearing on Item 7.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I move we close the public hearing on 7-C.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on 7-C. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
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D. Resolution No. 19-2172: A Resolution Adopting the
Winter/Spring 2020 Fee Schedule of the Meridian Parks and
Recreation Department; Authorizing the Meridian Parks and
Recreation Department to Collect Such Fees; and Providing an
Effective Date
De Weerd: Resolution under 7-D, 19-2172 is a resolution adopting these fees. Do I have
a motion?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I move that we approve Resolution No. 19-2172.
Bernt: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 7-D. If there no discussion,
Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
E. Public Hearing Continued from November 19, 2019 for New
Comprehensive Plan (H-2019-0101 CPAT & CPAM ) by
Meridian Planning Department
1. Request: To replace the existing Comprehensive Plan (the
Plan) for the City with a new long-range planning document.
The application includes but is not limited to the following: 1)
approval of new text, both background and policies; 2)
adoption of a new Future Land Use Map of the City, including
Area of City Impact boundary changes; and 3) accepting new
goals, objectives and action items of the Plan, by Meridian
Planning Department.
De Weerd: Item 7-E is a public hearing continued from November 19th for our new
Comprehensive Plan, H-2019-0101. This was continued not for public testimony, but
written testimony and any additional questions from Council to give them an opportunity
to absorb what we heard last week and for staff to provide additional comment. We did
receive a number of written testimony comments and those are all in our public record as
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well and several are in front of us, since we just got some today. So, I'm going to turn this
over to staff.
Hood: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. My name is Caleb Hood, I'm
the planning division manager. I'm here with Brian McClure, also in Community
Development, planning associate. I'm really glad that we are not talking about shared
vehicles. It's the Comprehensive Plan. So, yes, it is continued from last week. I thought
what would be most productive is to kind of run through some of the themes that we heard
last week. This isn't what -- what I'm about to cover isn't an exhaustive list of all public
testimony that's been received in writing or verbally provided to you, but the ones that at
least the staff believes are the -- the outstanding issues. Again, there may be other ones,
that's kind of the last bullet there. I want to leave some time for some other things that --
that maybe you heard or read or saw or are aware of that you also want to address. But
these are kind of the -- half a dozen kind of larger, outstanding issues, if you will, that we
believe need to be addressed this evening in advance of adopting the plan. So, I'm going
to run through these kind of in that order that you see them on the screen there and --
and largely from last week's meeting, but it's -- as the Mayor mentioned, public testimony
was still coming in as of like 3:30 there was another request I think for -- for some
comments. So, the first one -- I have got -- titled this slide low density residential, but
that's not necessarily what this is all about; right? It's -- it's ultra low rural agricultural,
kind of heritage that you heard about. We -- we are losing, quite frankly, some of it is
going away almost daily. A lot of that request -- again -- and I'm not here to rehash
everything that we -- that was talked about, but really one of the main things that I think I
heard, anyways, from the community was the need for a lower density designation within
our Comprehensive Plan. As a refresher, city staff and the steering committee
recommended removing the existing rural estate residential land use designation from
the plan. That rural residential designation allows a minimum five acre lot and anticipates
no city sewer or water provisions. Staff and the steering committee and the Planning and
Zoning Commission, to a certain extent, recommended that the low density residential
designation be beefed up and -- and used instead of that rural designation. So, within
the text of the plan we tried to make it clear that a transition to and respect for existing
land uses is necessary. In the development review process staff looks at the adjacent
existing land uses and the future land use map to help direct appropriate transition,
densities and designs of proposed new projects. So, there are -- again, like I said, there
are policies already in the draft plan. We thought to beef that up with an additional policy,
which you see on the bottom of this slide, really hammers that home additionally to
provide a minimum one acre lot when development is proposed next to existing real estate
residential properties. The one caveat to that would be where you don't have to
necessarily provide that minimum one acre lot is where there is an existing road that
separates those properties or there is a nice, linear open space buffer that exists. So
then -- then you wouldn't have to necessarily provide that one acre lot. We still would be
in most cases looking for a transition, so you're not necessarily out of that, just would
mean we wouldn't be necessarily explicitly looking for a one acre lot, because it doesn't
directly butt up to that existing rural estate property. So, that's one of the things that since
last week we have developed as staff -- so, I just want to make that clear. This has not
-- that has not been vetted through the steering committee, obviously, or the public or --
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you are seeing it, too, for the first time today. So, this is of staff's own doing here and this
hasn't gone through that process, that -- that those other things -- and the same can be
said for the change -- the low density text that you see above. I will just quickly note that
sample zoning we are going to talk about here in a minute. So, that's why it's red. That
there may be some additional changes or tweaks or even removal of that. But that's why
that's called out differently. The designation -- the definition of low density residential
that's on the screen is what you saw last week. We haven't tweaked that anymore. We
think that does, again, a pretty good job of describing what low density is and does within
-- within the comp plan. But, again, that is an outstanding issue for you to -- for you to
determine, so -- so, what -- while it is envisioned that many properties with a low density
residential designation will develop with more than one unit per acre, larger lots are
appropriate in some instances. The low density residential is not the real estate
designation that was added in 2012 and is proposed to be removed with this new plan,
but with the proposed text -- text changes staff just went through we do believe that the
intent to preserve and protect existing rural estate properties, while allowing urban level
development to occur is achieved. So, that is kind of issue one if you will summarize.
So, Madam Mayor, Members of Council, I don't know how you want to tackle these. I'm
not necessarily asking you to make a decision on all one of these. I was planning on
running through it, but if you want to stop and have a conversation, ask questions, I will
leave that up to you. So, I can run through my presentation, we can double back -- is that
what everyone prefers to do? Okay.
De Weerd: Council, what is your preference?
Milam: Madam Mayor? Oh, sorry.
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I would prefer to tackle each item individually and discuss it and, then, move on
to the next one personally.
De Weerd: Okay. So, questions, comments?
Milam: Anybody else?
De Weerd: I think that's fine.
Cavener: So, Madam Mayor, I guess --
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I think it's appropriate if Council Members have questions throughout this
process that we should be chiming in. To Caleb's point, we all just got to see this for the
first time, some of us right before we sat down, so we want some time to kind of think and
process on it and so I guess just reserving the right to come back later for other questions
or comments at a later point in time.
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De Weerd: Okay. Anything else on this item?
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor?
Milam: Madam Mayor? Oh.
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor, one of the things that I made quite a few notes on was not
just preserving the designation of rural, but preserving the lifestyle that went with it,
such as animals and things like that, so -- and I know right now, if I'm understanding
correctly, you can't have the animals in the city limits even if you have the space. Is there
any opportunities for grandfathering people that are there now to continue to have the
animals until they sell the property or something?
De Weerd: Well, they will -- they are not going to be annexed. They will be a
nonconforming use, but until they would come in for annexation they are just a
nonconforming use, I believe.
Baird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. -- Ted. Mr. Ted.
Baird: Attorney Baird.
De Weerd: Baird.
Baird: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, while they are still in the county it's an
allowed county use. When they come in they would become a nonconforming use.
De Weerd: If they don't change it.
Baird: If they don't change it. So, they can continue with what they have got until it
changes. So, the issue, then, that Council Member Little Roberts is talking about is new
people coming in wanting that lifestyle, once the ownership changes that -- that use goes
away or if the herd thins out they can't replenish it. I mean they can do that one at a time.
It's -- it's really something that would need to be monitored, but that's the concept.
De Weerd: And that is really only after annexing -- requesting annexation into the city.
So, that is their choice.
Baird: Yes.
Hood: Madam Mayor, if I can just circle back and this isn't -- it's not in the Unified
Development Code, so it's not in the code that I'm most familiar with, but you can have
livestock within the city limits, they just can't be a nuisance. So, it's in Title 6 of City Code
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and it's titled livestock harbored on private property. It does not prohibit you from having
livestock, what it says -- and I'm going to paraphrase it, but it says it shall be unlawful to
harbor or allow to remain within the corporate limits of the city any livestock which emits
noises disturbing to residents of the city. You can have them as long as they are well
behaved and they don't stink and make noises and those types of things. So, again, I
mean, that's -- so, it goes on -- and, again, I said I was going to paraphrase, I'm not
reading this, but it talks about stable, refuse care -- so I mean there is -- there is -- you
can have them, you just need to be good stewards of them. You can't -- it can't be
disturbing and a nuisance. So, that's the -- that's the kind of caveat and I realize that's
not -- animals are generally stinky, right, but that's where you are going to get -- it's not
outright prohibited. When you annex it doesn't mean you have to get rid of your horses
and/or cows, it just means there is a -- there is a standard there to maintain them.
Little Roberts: Thank you.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I think it's also important that those who are in the county are able to continue, you
know, farming and, you know, using -- you know, there was a lady that -- that I think she
-- that -- that gave testimony -- an interesting testimony for sure with slaughtering of
animals and that certainly happens on farms, just as long as they are able to continue
that lifestyle in the county, I know that you don't have any purview over that, but that's -- I
think that would be important for them to be able to continue to do that and I guess it
would be on the developer, those who are moving around these farms, that they need to
know that that's going to continue and -- and so if they are okay with that, then --
De Weerd: Yeah. And you can't change that, only the county commissioners can.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: As to the low density issue and -- and what you have proposed here, it seems to
me to try to blend a lot of the public comment that we received and Planning and Zoning
recognized -- and there is so much discussion about concepts such as ultra low density
or an alternative to rural and -- and a lot of that valuable feedback seemed to try to capture
what you are trying to capture here. So, I think utilizing a more robust narrative and
definition of what low density residential is intended to be, makes the guide a greater
guide, not only for the property owners in that designation or adjacent to it, but also to the
developers and to the elected officials to know the general intent of what that property
should be at some point should it annex into the city. So, I think this is really helpful and
I think the policy you have provided below appears to try to blend those principles and try
to encourage and capture the more -- I think a little more thoughtful transition with some
of those county uses that -- that are in or adjacent to these low density areas. So, I think
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this is -- at first blush this is really helpful. I think it's a valuable -- and appears to be a
very reasonable compromise to capture those principles that we heard from the public
and we heard a lot from the public about that issue and the rural heritage and so at first
blush I think it's -- it's well done.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Caleb, I definitely think this is an improvement from -- from the original plan.
However, we did hear a lot of testimony regarding ultra rural and it seems like the steering
committee was in favor of that and I'm just trying to figure out why there is so much
resistance. I feel like there is -- like we can't have certain areas that are maybe one acre
parcels. We have had a lot of testimony saying even for just one acre, you know, so that
I don't have my property with four and eight -- you know, four or five neighbors backed up
to me. I think that is an appropriate zoning for certain, you know, little areas and -- and
what -- and if somebody has four and a half acres, this doesn't do them any good. So, it
does give some -- some transition for particular pieces of property, but it doesn't really
answer the question as a whole. I'm still struggling with that one.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, if I can just maybe provide a little bit of context to that. You're
-- you're right, Councilman Milam, the new policy would not necessarily explicitly help that
four and a half acre parcel. However, there are other policies that still talk about adequate
-- providing an adequate transition to adjacent properties. This one is directly responding
to the five acre -- that rural estate property. You could have a two or three acre parcel
and we have other policies that talk about an appropriate transition. If you try to strip out
ten homes next to that two acre parcel, staff is still going to say that's not appropriate
transition. You are right. It's not explicitly -- this -- this one doesn't explicitly help that
situation. But, again, that -- this one coupled with the other policies that are in the plan
we think does help guide what an appropriate transition should look like through the use
of lot sizes, buffers, streets, connectivity, linear open spaces, those types of things. So,
again, you get to decide that ultimately, but I just want to say there are other things than
what you see on the screen that -- that try to reinforce the need to transition from one lot
size to another. Again, even if they are not rural estate, if it's a 20,000 square foot city lot,
we are still going to want to see a transition to -- you know, an appropriate transition from
that lot to a proposed project, too, even if it's medium density. So, transition kind of rings
throughout in the plan. I guess just one point of clarification. There are members of the
steering committee that weren't in favor of removing the rural estate, but as a whole the
steering committee did recommend what you see before you and went through the
Planning and Zoning Commission to remove the rural estate residential. Again, you can
-- you can put that back or some version of that back in the plan, but that was not the
consensus of the steering committee to draft up or keep the -- the current rural estate
designation in the city.
Milam: Madam Mayor, can I follow up? Thank you. So -- and that, I guess, was -- should
have been my original question to you. So, there is -- it's kind of twofold. How when you
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-- when the steering committee made decisions how were the decisions made? Was it
by majority vote? Was it by -- you know, somebody overruled somebody else? Was it
like, well, we have -- we will take your opinion and we will think about it. And the second
part of that is what changed after the steering committee was done with it, what did staff
change? So, those are two different questions.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, I think I can handle those and, Brian, feel free to jump in. So,
the first part of that we -- we generally try to work off consensus. We did not always agree
on everything that came out and we had the conversation, though, as we got to reviewing
the -- the draft final version that we felt comfortable putting it out there for the public to
review. We knew there were sticking points and, quite frankly, they are probably sticking
points for every single member of that steering committee. No one was a hundred percent
happy, including staff, with what was going to go out to the public and we asked the
question should we vote, does it need to be unanimous, you know, we generally want
everyone to agree to this thing, but there is 500 policies. If you don't agree with one or
two of them does that mean you don't vote in favor of the plan? And that's kind of the
same thing I would ask you. A vast majority of this do -- maybe there is one or two that
you really -- is not your favorite, but when you are trying to work together on something
does it -- so, to answer your question more bluntly, we didn't vote, there were some folks
that weren't super keen on this going forward, but we had a super majority -- a vast
majority of the steering committee members that were in favor of the draft that went out
for public review early July. The second part of your -- the second question is -- it's a little
more detailed. We really -- so, we tried to respect that process as staff. We tried to say,
yep, it's been vetted through the steering committee and, then, we had it open to the
public for five weeks and, then, the application was submitted. I think there were two --
so, I need to be careful here, because there were some text changes in the slide from last
week where we slightly tweaked some things. I might even have that slide that I can
show you. So, there were some small text changes, none of them I -- in my opinion, they
weren't substantial. It doesn't warrant going back out to the public, they were pretty
nitpicky, if you will, but -- but we think it's still add -- added some value enough to -- to
make the changes and there was one area and that area was the Magic View,
Woodbridge area that we did not agree with the steering committee and we -- I hate to
use the term, but we vetoed what the steering committee -- and we said except for that,
that was the one area where we said that is just -- we -- as a city we can't go forward
doing nothing in that area. So, aside from that, though, what the Planning and Zoning
Commission reviewed is what the steering committee recommended. But for those -- one
map change and four or five text changes, but, again, they are pretty minor. Now, I may
have missed something, so I'm going to make sure that -- Brian helped write the staff
report, too, so --
McClure: Madam Mayor, Commissioner -- Councilman Milam, there was one other small
adjustment in the El Gato --
De Weerd: Brian, can you speak a little louder. Thank you.
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McClure: There was one other small change in the El Gato, Cherry Lane, railroad area.
We adjusted some of the industrial in that area to be office to better transition to some of
the adjacent residential. The vast majority of the area was -- was that, but that was called
out in the staff report as a change.
Milam: Thank you.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: To piggyback on Mr. Borton's comments and what staff said earlier, just -- just a
couple questions. What exactly is -- what would you consider to be like a linear
transitional barrier between like these -- these rural estate lots -- you know, parcels and
like a proposed application or subdivision next to it?
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, if I understand the question, I believe you are looking probably
at the new policy down there and the linear open space. Is that -- is that the question?
Like what would qualify as that or --
Bernt: Yeah. Like something that would -- that would -- that would be like a natural
transition between the larger lots to the smaller lots.
Hood: Besides lot size?
Bernt: Yeah.
Hood: Again -- so, open space can be that. So, if you put your -- the park for the
subdivision next to that, you know, that could be something -- and, again, we are going to
be looking for appropriateness of that. How -- how large are the large estate lots next to
-- next to those ones. Sometimes something as narrow as 20 feet may be enough of a
-- you know, a common area park light, you know, with a -- with a pathway running down
it and -- and something like that. Other times it may need to be more substantial, again,
depending on the location of where some of those homes sit even on their lots play into
that to what's appropriate. But that's just an example of what could be done to transition
into smaller lots on the other side. It's -- it's hard and that's kind of the -- at the heart of
the comp plan why it's not a one size fits all, there is so many things that factor into what's
appropriate. You got to look at what's going on around and is that the -- do we envision
that being a 50 or 75 year structure that's there or do we see that even being raised in
the next 20 years? And, again, where is that cited on that property and what's this project
proposing and what's the interplay there. So, sorry, I can't answer your question directly,
but, again, it is case by case and open space, a path -- something as simple as just a
pathway between an existing subdivision and a proposed subdivision could potentially
provide that -- that separation, that buffer, that transition necessary.
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Bernt: Thank you, Caleb. Madam Mayor, follow up. In my opinion I just -- I -- I think that
that's not -- in my opinion I believe that that type of a transition isn't enough where you
have larger, you know, five to ten acre lots and just across the pathway or across the
street, you have up to, you know, three units per -- per acre. I think that that would need
to be -- in my opinion, any abutting of these larger estate lots would need to be a little bit
less dense than that.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Caleb, not looking for a verbatim response, but maybe a summary -- my -- my
assumption is that this proposal was brought before the steering committee and I'm just
curious if you could kind of summarize why this designation wasn't supported or
recommended by the steering committee. I mean what was their basis for that?
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, Councilman Cavener, I think I mentioned it last time and I may
-- and I may have undercharacterize the conversation. There were some members of our
steering committee that were talking for and advocating for a lower density residential
designation. That didn't, again, rise to the level of developing one, though, to propose,
because the majority of the steering committee didn't believe that was in the best interest
of an urbanizing community to have this designation, again, that plans for rural. We are
planning for a city. We are not planning for rural. So, what you see, though, on the screen
-- and here is -- here is kind of what I think happened, quite frankly, is there is -- there is
a pre-app going on next to a subdivision and it opened the eyes of that subdivision saying,
oh, we are looking at medium density coming in next to us, what's going on, and this just
happened to correspond with the time that we were developing the comp plan. So, the
talk -- but that -- but the steering committee had already finished meeting. So, again,
some of what you see is a response to more recent requests to accommodate some of
the existing low density residential properties on the map, recognizing their -- their rural
character, but someday -- again, they are still in our area of impact and someday will still
be part of the city, maybe even as is, as a five acre lot, but still within the city or surrounded
by it. So, the timing I guess, to answer your question, was -- was really at play here, that
there wasn't this groundswell from the public while we were really developing a majority
of the plan to make the changes you see on the screen or to keep or amend a rural estate
designation we currently have.
Cavener: An additional question.
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Cavener: Caleb -- and again, my belief would be if this designation was adopted, the City
of Meridian comes knocking at this rural area and owners want to move somewhere else,
redevelop their property, they would just go through the same semi-annual comp plan,
assuming a map amendment process that we have kind of contemplated that this plan
would allow, is that -- is that accurate?
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Hood: Madam Mayor, Councilman Cavener, I'm not quite tracking your -- your question
there.
Cavener: Madam Mayor -- sorry. I apologize. But I guess for me what I'm trying to wrap
my head around is this is a visioning document, so six years from now everybody and
their dog is wanting to move to northeast Meridian and development comes to the edge
of where one of these designations is and the owners want to leave, they want to sell the
land, they want to redevelop their land, whatever they want to do, what is the process
that's afforded to them to change the designation at that point?
Hood: Thank you for clarifying that. So, Madam Mayor, Councilman Cavener, Members
of Council, everybody in -- in the city or in the county has at their disposal the opportunity
to apply for a comprehensive plan map amendment. As late as today I told somebody
that is at your disposal. However, we are going to scrutinize the heck out of those in the
next -- not that we don't take them seriously off the bat, but because we are spending so
much effort in developing this, anything that comes -- is submitted in the next 18 months
to two years or so, good luck. But that is always at the disposal of a member to change
the map and it's not semi-annually today, we may talk about that in the future, how often
do we even want to consider taking in those map -- we used to have a cut off and only do
it every six months. We got rid of that. But let's -- I guess I think the heart of your question,
though, more is what -- what we get some criticism for sometimes is holding properties
with a designation with the understanding that someday we are going to give it a higher
density designation. For Public Works that doesn't work. They are master planning today.
We can't -- we can't put on our future land use map rural and expect there to be sewer
and water someday, because, guess what, the sizing of that is happening right now. So,
you can't in five years or whatever your scenario is when everyone wants to sell and
redevelop and now I want eight acres -- eight dwelling unit per acre, it's too late. We can't
do it then. So, this plan really does need to reflect an ultimate -- and it's not perfect and
it does change and it can change, but we can't look at it that way of -- well, we will give
this holding designation of rural and, then, someday we will come back and we will make
it medium or medium high or something else. If that's what we are going to do we need
disclose that and start planning for it.
De Weerd: Any other questions on -- on this particular item? And we will always go back,
so -- okay.
Hood: Moving right along. That -- that is probably the biggest one, though, quite frankly.
I mean that's -- that's -- that's going to be a big one for you all to -- and I look forward to
the discussion. Sample zoning was something else that -- that came up and this is
something that has arisen for -- well, probably since as long as I have been with the city.
There is a disconnect between future land use designations and zoning. You hear them
used interchangeably. We are not zoning anybody when we give you a future land use
designation. So, that's -- what we have tried to do with this metrics and even the title slide
that we have been using at public hearings for the past year, year and a half, is trying to
educate the public that says -- it's largely what we see on the screen, this metrics. It's a
little bit different exhibit, but it's the same point. If you have this designation, here is zones
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that you're most likely to see with that designation. So, that's the metrics you see on the
left. What we also put on with our cut sheets, which is, essentially, a summary of what --
you know, what does a mixed use community mean? It's easier for us to bring -- here is
a paper that tells you what mixed use community means. It's not intuitive to understand
what that means. But within that MUC designation we put sample zoning. We say you
can ask for an R-8 or an R-15, because we are looking for higher density residential, we
are looking for smaller scale commercial and office. So, on a cut sheet, though -- but we
have -- but that isn't in our comp plan anywhere. So, it's like, well, it doesn't say that your
comp plan, how can you write it on a cut sheet that supposedly summarizes what your
comp plan says if you don't put samples zoning in there? Like, okay, well, we should
probably include sample zoning, then, in our comp plan that really does make that tie
between a designation and zoning. The big caveat there, though, is, again, with a low
density designation, for example, R-8 or I would even make the argument R-15 could be
appropriate in limited instances. Let's take that example of we have four and a half acre
or five acre lots next to a project and they -- and those neighbors really want a park next
to them, that's what they think is an appropriate transition. Well, you want that density on
the other side, but let's take half of the ten acres that's being developed and we will make
half of it a park, but I need smaller lots over here. So, guess what, overall I'm at two
dwelling units per acre. It's 15 over here, it's zero over here. Overall, though, the average
is -- I'm using the R-15 zoning. I'm still below the overall density for that designation, but
it allows you to design things differently; right? If we say you can only do R-2 and R-4 in
a low density residential, you're constrained, because the developer is going to want to
generally try to get higher densities and, again, you got to take into context what you are
developing against, but, again, this is just meant to say nine times out of ten in a low
density residential you are likely to see R-2 or R-4. It doesn't mean somebody couldn't
ask for a little bit of R-8 in there. If it's designed appropriately and still transitions and all
that and the density is still less than three, three or less, that -- that may work. Zoning is
-- is -- and I'm getting onto my next slide here a little bit. The medium density zoning
designation is dimensional standards. The comp plan designation is about density.
Zoning is not density and density is not zoning. But there is this interplay between the
two. It's -- it's different and that's what we have tried to -- we have tried to explain that
through different graphics and, then, with text and we thought that it would be a good idea
to include sample zoning. That second bullet I think I already touched to. So, we as staff
tend to like the idea of including samples zoning within the text. We think it is a little more
transparent, if you will, but it can also be misleading, because it's not just R-2 or R-4, but
if a developer has proposed R-8 they are probably going to get -- people are going to
testify your -- your plan says sample zoning is R-2 and R-4, why are they asking for R-8.
So, at the end of the day -- for that reason and because this was a later add in the process,
so this -- this came up at testimony last week, we did the research on when this was
actually proposed and reviewed by the steering committee. It was brought up in our third
to last meeting. So, they only looked at this text their second to last meeting, which was
effectively the last working meeting. Our last meeting was a dinner and kind of how did
we do type of a meeting. So, we didn't really get into any of the details of the text or the
map. So, really, there was only one, the last working meeting of the steering committee
where they reviewed including samples zoning. So, because the process was
abbreviated -- I won't say flawed, it was out there, it went to the public, but the steering
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committee -- and, again, it's sort of -- we think it's an improvement, but there is pros and
cons. At this point we would say let's just take sample zoning out and we will continue to
try to do the best we can by educating the public, developers, and others on how land
use designations and zoning -- one guides to the other and it doesn't dictate the other.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I think to that point and your -- and your previous slide kind of had an example of
that and one of the reasons I like a more robust definition describing the purpose and
intent of the density associated with the land use is it provides the guidance more accurate
to what is intended for that area, much more so than a sample zoning and to your point,
for example, in a low density designated area, you might want to -- by eliminating the
sample zoning you might want to encourage somebody to have a dimensional standard
that necessitates the R-15, still match the intent of a low density residential through some
creative land use, which kind of hits back to one of the previous concepts of the
overarching kind of promotion and protection of private property rights and trying to
encourage people to get best use of their property and be afforded that flexibility, but not
be surprised by what the ultimate intent of the city is for that area. So, I thought it made
sense with your explanation that the sample zoning can be removed, because I think it is
more of a hindrance than -- even with good intentions than what it might ultimately
provide, so long as the sample zoning removal is replaced with a more robust definition
of the density intention for that particular area. I mean that provides the flexibility to the
property owner, to the potential developer, and it provides better guidance for adjacent
property owners and to the elected officials to understand that discretionary role when --
if and when that property and that project comes to us and we are not thinking R-2 or R-
4 dimensional standards handcuff this 20 acre project, which could, with flexibility, be
something even greater. So, I thought the sample zoning coming out with a more robust
definition meets that intent.
Hood: Madam Mayor. Again, that's kind of where we landed, too, but now to play Devil's
advocate or throw another option in there a little bit and -- and the last slide there I think
is -- there -- there is a typo -- again because this was a later add and it's my fault, I should
have read it, because I knew it was a later add, but in the medium density residential the
sample zoning, if we want to leave samples zoning we need to at least correct that one,
because right now it says R-2 and R-4 and that's just not accurate. So, if -- if we want to
go there and this is where -- we don't need to go there now, because if everyone is of a
similar mind that we don't want to include sample zoning, then, we will just remove sample
zoning on the four to five residential -- five residential designations. If we do, then, let's
have that conversation about what sample zoning we list and I would say we have added
-- Brian and I have wordsmithed -- and I can get into it again if we want to go there -- a
sentence we would add that goes right before these designations that say samples zoning
is just that, it's sample. It's not an exhaustive list. You can ask for other ones so long as
you meet the intent of the definition of that area; right? So again -- so, that's what we
would add and clean up the sample zones listed and add that if we think there is value to
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have sample zoning. And I don't want to spend too much time on that if the solution is
just to remove sample zoning. But if you guys want to go there we have -- we have that
solution, too. Which, again, we think is a viable option. They are both -- this is where you
get to make the call. We can -- we see pros and cons to both of them and we will work
with either one of them. We see value to both.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I -- I kind of like the sample zoning, Caleb, and I wrote, you know, like to -- just
include something that kind of like what you said, that the overall density must comply
with the -- with the designation. You know, if you put that in there clearly and, then, even
more in depth like what you were saying, you know, there are other ways and multiple
ways to get there, but the bottom line is that the overall density has to comply with the
designation and I like -- I like the visual. I think it's -- it can be helpful and it could maybe
help people get creative.
Hood: Madam Mayor, because Council Woman Milam went there, I'm just going to -- I'm
going to pull it up to show what that could look like here then. So, again, under the general
guidance -- and this would be just before we list it in the text of the different residential
density designations, this is the text we would add if you are going to keep in sample
zoning.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: They have got to go, because the more I think about it the more I keep trying to
put myself in the position of the hundreds of people that have been before us in the
audience and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this -- unless you live in this, there is just -- it's just --
no. It's got to go. At first when the discussion started and I was like, oh -- but no. Yeah,
it's got to go. I have completely changed in the last ten minutes.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I tend to agree. I think, though, Council Member Borton, gave clear direction.
The sample zoning is well intended, but creates many more complications than the
benefits it provides. So, whether it is a more robust definition or a -- a better mousetrap
to educate the public, I'm supportive of that, but it makes clear sense to me about pulling
the -- the sample zoning piece out. It doesn't -- I don't think it serves us long term.
De Weerd: Okay. If there is no comments or further questions, we will go ahead and
move to the next item.
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Hood: So, this one should be pretty quick. This is also just a confirmation on the text of
the plan. So, there were two changes that were recommended by our consultant early
on in the process and that was to change the density ranges described. So, we are in
the same section of text in the -- in the plan, Chapter 3, the medium high density
residential currently in the adopted plan, that range is eight to 15 dwelling units per acre.
The consultant recommends eight to 12 is appropriate for our community and, therefore,
there is a trickle down, then, to the higher density than anything be -- above 12, then,
would be the new range, where before -- or currently it's 15. So, again, processwise that
was included in the first draft, it was seen by the steering committee, it's remained
consistent throughout the public review and comment period. It wasn't discussed ad
nauseum by the steering committee, but it was part of what they reviewed and approved
and went through the process. So, this was just another thing that -- that I wanted to just
circle back on through the public hearing that came up and we have talked about it and
we are good either way, again, at this point, because it's been vetted through the public
and the steering committee this way. Twelve certainly works. So, I don't know if you have
any comments on that one, but I wanted to just put that out. So, those are kind of the text
-- Madam Mayor, did you want -- okay. Those are kind of the text changes and, then, text
to map, there is -- there is sort of a bleeding here of -- right. Whatever you are going to
do with items one and two, could have implications on some of the next things we are
going to talk about. But that's sort of the text changes. And, again, these -- those are all
in Chapter 3 of the plan, which is the land use section of the plan. I'm going to, then,
summarize, tee up, how -- frame, whatever, kind of, again, what we heard regarding some
of the requested map changes a little bit. Rustler Place -- I don't know that there is a
whole lot here to summarize. You are all familiar with the area. This is more just a graphic
to refresh your memory that -- in the adopted future land use map they are designated as
medium. We propose to use the low density residential for Rustler Place and Rock --
Rock Ranch Estates and, then, a couple of parcels that weren't in those subdivisions, but
do exist in that general vicinity. Oh. And I can pause or just keep going and -- not that
you have to make that decision, but I wanted to just put that out there as one of the
requests, right, to an ultra low or low, maybe not just for this property even, but maybe
other properties in south Meridian or north Meridian or other places in our area of impact
if you have that designation.
De Weerd: Any comments from Council on that?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: You might have lost me a little bit when you -- you referenced ultra low. That's --
Hood: Again, going back to number one, if -- if there is a desig -- a new designation or a
repurposing of the existing rural estate designation, where do you use that on the map?
They are the first ones to say use us as an ultra low or uber low or rural or whatever that
designation is going to say. There may be other opportunities if -- if, in fact, we do create
that, if that's the direction you want to go, there may be other places that that gets used
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as well. But there are the ones that were most vocal from the last meeting saying we
aren't going to be medium, certainly. Low is even pushing it. We -- the vision should be
ultra low for us, so -- sorry that was confusing.
Borton: Madam Mayor? I think this all, obviously, blends together. I think some of the
answers to the earlier comments about if -- if sample zoning is removed and replaced
with a more robust definition of low density residential, that more robust definition, which
has some of the features you showed and addresses, you know, the one acre lot size
adjacent to rural type development, then, makes this designation on the right from the
P&Z Commission, the low density residential to be -- I guess as amended it's a little more
low density than it was defined a week ago. It's not as low as the old rural, which is being
removed, so it all seems to capture the compromise -- or a compromise, middle ground,
for us to consider. We heard some public comment that talked about -- and I forget the
gentleman's name -- one in particular referenced, you know, the one acre lot as being
kind of a benchmark transition for some of these county ag property owners. So, I think
they all tie together. So, assuming you remove the -- the sample zoning and assuming
you define low density the way you have amended it and it might be clarified even more
so than the map designation on the right, now seems more appropriate and of less
concern. I think it all ties together. Yeah. And, Madam Mayor, to that point, I think what
isn't -- I think maybe for today's discussion, but if we are utilizing the robust definition, for
lack of a better phrase, as the new tool to help guide low density residential land uses
and affording flexibility within that by removing the sample zoning, I think the medium
density residential -- when I look at the draft on 3-10 it's -- it's a couple sentences; right?
Because it had the sample zoning to try and help frame the uses, so I think if we are going
to remove the sample zoning, the medium density residential might need a little more
meat to it as well to be valuable to the -- to everybody, really. And I just think -- and the
old plan has a couple sentences, because I think that sample zoning is -- well, not on this
one, but it's short. Sample zoning can be a crutch that more -- more text language can
help.
De Weerd: Okay.
Borton: Any of that make sense?
Hood: Madam Mayor, Councilman Borton, I think it made sense. I think the thing that
concerns me the most -- or, again, the Devil's in the detail -- a little more meat in the
definition of medium density. We have -- that is our most used land use designation. We
have -- I don't remember the percentage, but probably 40 percent of our future land use
map is medium, roughly. There are just a lot of variables and so to put more meat on
something that is north to south, east to west, in-fill to suburban and still with defining
everything within that, I don't know what the expectation is there to add more meat to
something, realizing that it's got to do everything to transition to low and it's going to be
next to commercial and industrial and everything else. I don't know how to -- almost kind
of want to keep it pretty simple, density range single family homes. That's it; right? Like
pretty much limit it to -- but maybe -- I don't know what you are envisioning there. More
meat.
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Borton: Madam Mayor. And maybe so. That may be the answer. I don't -- obviously
don't have the language for it right now, but here is the -- the -- it goes back to the intent
of this comp plan, what the whole thing is trying to do is provide that -- that -- and a
common understanding of what the intended land use types are for an area. So, if you
ever had a situation where someone's brought an application and -- and they suggested
medium density residential and you ever -- or -- or Planning ever provided some
comments back that said medium density residential really shouldn't be here and they
say why is that and you would say, well, medium density residential is generally intended
to do X, Y and Z. I'm trying to get at the X, Y and Z, just something -- and maybe -- maybe
there is nothing that you can do, but maybe something that by a robust definition -- so, a
property owner and an applicant doesn't, you know, learn of it late in the game. They kind
of know. And if there is not more language I get it. I totally understand what you're saying.
I just think it's so great to not have surprises and we can utilize -- kind of like what you did
to low density. I don't know how you do it, but that's all I was trying to promote.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor -- and I appreciate that thought. I guess my -- my initial
response would be -- and, again, they don't all apply, but we have 500 policies and -- and
at least a dozen or so of those are going to apply to that scenario that really limits those
surprises down the road and it directs -- but they are going to apply on a case by case,
but not all 500 are going to apply to any one property and let's -- so, let's not get too
focused on the color on a map, but, really, it's a combination of things, so that we avoid
surprises. What is your color on the map first. What zoning should -- is appropriate there
because of what's going on around you. What's your design. And, then, look at some of
those policies that say, you know, this is what staff is expecting and probably what the
neighborhood is expecting, too, is, again, transition, open space, some of those other
things. So, I'm not saying we can't maybe add some things in there, but we got to look at
-- look at all this in -- it's a package deal in the plan; right? There is -- there is multiple
policies that apply, so --
De Weerd: Okay. Anything further on this? Okay.
Hood: For now. Okay. And, then, Magic Bridge, again, I think probably everyone
remembers this one, but just a quick refresher. The steering committee went back and
forth on this one. Their final recommendation, though, was to leave the existing Locust
View Heights properties with the low density residential designation. So, what you see
on the adopted side, the Locust View Heights, to leave that low density residential. This
is the one I mentioned when asked the question what did staff recommend changing from
the steering committee, this is one where we pulled the trump card or said, you know,
what we think -- this is in the best interest to do something more like what you see on the
right-hand side and the Planning and Zoning Commission agreed. So, that is their -- their
recommendation to you. I would just -- you don't have it on here, but the steering
committee's recommendation isn't the adopted. The steering committee's
recommendation actually still did change the properties in Magic View Subdivision to the
mixed use neighborhood. So, irregardless of what you decide, kind of in -- in this general
vicinity, the office has not developed as office very well. You do have the frontage lots
along the freeway that have. This mixed use neighborhood designation also
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accommodates the office. But some of these ones that don't have great access that are
back hidden in there, just aren't great office lots and so, again, kind of irregardless of what
you decide on the Locust View Heights side, staff would recommend that you -- you go
with -- because that's been pretty consistent and we haven't had anybody say don't --
don't change the -- that area from office and commercial to more mixed use neighborhood
type of uses. So, want to kind of point that out there.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Caleb, did -- did you guys make this change, then, after the last steering
committee meeting, but before it went to P&Z?
Hood: Correct. Yeah. This is -- again, this is the one -- well, with El Gato I guess there
is a small tweak on El Gato to transition with a little bit of office, but we largely left the
steering committee's recommendation alone but for this one.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, follow up. Do you guys -- do you have the steering committee
notice, hey, we are making this change before you brought it to P&Z? Thanks.
Hood: At this point I would just point out just -- it wasn't just me and Brian in a dark smoky
room making these decisions.
Cavener: What?
Hood: It was -- it was a larger city staff getting together and saying here is what's going
forward, Public Works, and -- and, you know, other departments and other planning staff,
too. So, we did -- we did vet that out further and just said, you know what, we just don't
think the steering committee really got this one right. We really think there is long term
negative implications for organization if you don't and that's why we did that. The other
ones -- again, we may have disagreed with other ones, but this one we really thought it's
just -- but I just wanted to point that out, it wasn't just more brain powers than we have to
do that and certainly we -- yeah. I don't feel that I'm high and mighty that way and just
change the recommendation of 22 other folks and say, yeah, we know what's best.
De Weerd: So, Caleb, last week this place in the red up against Locust Grove, there were
two residents that testified. They are not part of a subdivision, that that is separate. So,
did the steering committee talk about that?
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, it did come up. I mean we didn't -- we didn't get into that --
those details, because that really didn't matter to our decision. We were really looking at
the area redeveloping, not who is in an HOA or different subdivisions and all that. We
were just -- we were looking at the area. Certainly we looked at the lot sizes and -- and
what was developed on them and there is some general consistencies with, you know,
again, similar lot sizes, even on those lots on the front, basically being around one acre
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lots. So, it was disclosed and we knew that, but it didn't really factor in -- into any
decisions.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Caleb, it's me again.
De Weerd: I'm glad you referenced that. We wondered who you were.
Bernt: Got a question for you, Caleb. Can you walk me through how you got to the point
where you changed the -- the commercial designation on Magic Bridge, you know, the --
why and how -- like the process that you went through.
McClure: Madam Mayor, Councilman Bernt, so the -- the concept you see there on the
right is one of the original concepts -- or similar to one of the original concepts that the
consultants proposed. I don't know why the red there particularly was pulled out. You
can do the red in the -- in the brown typically. Not something super high intense in mixed
use neighborhood, but mixed use neighborhood does allow commercial uses. So, I can't
speak to why that is there, unless they were trying to encourage something even higher
intense than what you would do in mixed use neighborhood up against Locust Grove,
I --
Bernt: Madam Mayor, follow up. So, Brian, what you're saying is the -- the folks that we
contracted out to, Logan Simpson, made that change?
McClure: This is one other concept, yes.
Bernt: That they thought would be more beneficial?
McClure: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions on this one? Okay.
Hood: Sorry there is so many. Long title here. This is the general area of Black Cat,
Pine Avenue, El Gato, the railroad tracks. Again, I don't think this one needs a whole lot
of explanation or reminder, but the steering committee had basically requested that all of
this area go to industrial and the Planning and Zoning Commission requested that be
scaled back. You heard testimony that maybe -- well, everything from maybe just this
area is appropriate to industrial, to maybe nothing north of the railroad tracks being
designated industrial. So, you really do have some options, everything from a do nothing
to going back to what the original steering committee said and really looking at our
industrial lands that we don't have a whole lot and maybe the -- it's more appropriate to
designate more. So, this one, again, staff is on -- we played a role in this, just -- just kind
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of refreshing where things lie and their recommendation you have gotten from P&Z and
some of the testimony you heard last week.
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I have been somewhat reluctant to -- to chime in about what I think different
designations should be, but on this one I do think the -- there was a suggestion by
somebody in the public to use and I -- I can't remember the name of the -- the lateral or
whatnot --
Hood: Purdam.
Cavener: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Sure. Thank you, Council Member Milam, to maybe
use that as a -- a border to separate the industrial from the low density residential or
whatever it may be designated with. I think that -- that seemed to make sense to me. I
don't know how -- I don't like making changes because of an opinion of one, but because
we are kind of going through this process that was at least one that I felt really comfortable
with at least suggesting -- that we -- we look at making that change and, Caleb, I may
jump to kind of where I will head in the end is that I hope we can all provide some
feedback, either back to the steering committee or the staff tonight and this would be one
of those that I would suggest that the steering committee perhaps take another look at.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I kind of get whatever comes to this, if staff's going to make changes following
tonight's remarks and it might come back to us, which it may be late. I'm not sure about
the steering committee. I mean if they have done all the work that they went through and
they made a recommendation based upon their reasoning and it goes back to them I
would probably -- if I was on the committee I would say, well, make it all gray. I told you.
I did the work. So, what do you want me to do as a steering committee to provide answers
to the Council that you don't already have.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Great -- great question, Council Member Borton and for me it is -- it's
addressing some of these bigger questions that have come before us tonight that maybe
the steering committee did or didn't have the chance to wrestle with. So, going back to
just -- taking the public testimony Council has weighed in on issues like the ultra low
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density or whatever that piece is. That's something that because I have been supportive
of this being a citizen led initiative, not City Council led initiative, I would want to at least
give them the chance to weigh in and respond good, bad, or indifferent on that. Your --
your comments specifically, Council Member Borton, about removing the -- the sample
zoning and providing greater clarification or greater information in the definitions, that's
something I would also like them to weigh in on. If we take out the sample zoning, what
is the better mechanism that exists to educate both the development community and our
citizens as to what the FLUM means versus what zoning could be. We -- we can make
recommendations and we -- if we want to just say this is what we want it to be from a --
from a process standpoint I almost want them to have the opportunity to add their hands
on it one more time and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, we talked about this six months ago and
we didn't want to do that and here is the reason why. So, that -- some of these things that
I think is worth giving them the opportunity to chime in on that.
De Weerd: So, you're recommending going all the way back and, then, bringing it through
Planning and Zoning again and, then, City Council? Because that would be the process.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I'm -- I'm not making any recommendation at this point. It was
more -- I'm speaking off the cuff based on some of these types of things. I -- I think from
a process standpoint we have charted the steering committee to do so much of the work
and there are some bigger changes that are -- that are -- that we are contemplating tonight
and I -- I value the expertise of the committee and so I would want them to have that
opportunity and if -- I guess I would seek legal's direction if it has to go to the steering
committee and, then, back to the Planning and Zoning Commission for concurrence,
that's a good piece of information I would like to know. I didn't think that was required,
but if it is that's I think another factor for us to consider based on any recommendations
that we would make at the end of tonight's meeting or in the future.
De Weerd: Well, that's a process question that we can get to as well, if it gets to that
point.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: That's a great point and processwise I think we provide direction tonight and it
comes back in it -- in its new revised format to us, we take a look at it and it can at that
point be acted on. I think it can go to a steering committee and come back, because it's
still with us, or we could choose to remand it, but I think we might be able to control those
choices if we get there, but we couldn't do it tonight, because we got to see what the final
things looks like anyway.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
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Bernt: Just a quick question. Maybe -- maybe remand it back to the P&Z Commission
might be a better choice maybe to offer up some public testimony. I don't know if it can
be some public testimony at a steering committee level. So, that would be my only
thought.
De Weerd: Okay. Next item.
Hood: So, then, the next one are ones that were either late requests or requests that you
saw last week or since last week or that went through the steering committee and the
steering committee didn't recommend them, but you are still seeing letters or other
testimony requesting those changes. So, I'm happy to run through these with you, but,
again, they hadn't -- they haven't gone through that process. I think this -- maybe by
looking at them you will recall -- Franklin Road, east of Eagle, there is really two requests
in there. One is to change that area from mixed use to industrial and let some of that
area that ACHD owns go to Boise, since it's split between our area of city impact. So,
that's the one request there. The Gemtone request, which is off of Pine, Hickory, Rosario,
we have gotten some additional public testimony from them. So, again, this is north of
Pine, south of Fairview, basically straddling Hickory on both sides. Their request was to
go to mixed use nonresidential and there is quite a bit of residential going on just to their
west, so -- and -- and it's my understanding, too, that their CC&Rs or business owners
group or whatever prohibits residential anyway, so it really doesn't matter what we do, if
they can't get through them anyways. Northeast corner of Locust Grove, McMillan.
Again, you had public testimony last week. There is that neighborhood commercial area
just north of the Maverik there that was requested. Again, I can jump to any or all of them
if you want. And, then, southwest corner of Amity and Meridian you also had a letter
requesting that designation be changed from medium density residential to either
commercial or mixed use community and that's basically kitty corner from Victory Greens,
the feed store there, that area and, then, northwest corner of Ustick and McDermott, we
got a letter yesterday -- yeah, yesterday requesting a change and this is -- if you recall
when the high school was going in, Owyhee High School, Hunter Homes has the -- I
believe it's 40 acres adjacent. They are requesting to change their current designation of
mixed use interchange to commercial or -- excuse me -- to mixed use residential. So,
again, those are all on the table, if you will, but for various reasons, again, weren't part of
the -- the packages in going through the details there, but, again, we have a link and I can
show you all those if you want. So, those are also kind of on the table, so to speak, or a
request you have before you. I will just note I didn't check before this meeting, some
other ones may have rolled in here 11th hour that I don't know about. So, again,
disclaimer, there may be other ones that we missed. I certainly know there is some other
comments that I haven't addressed in this presentation. So, please, look at the record
and read the letters. This wasn't meant to supersede or -- or in lieu of reading public
testimony that cover those things, these are just the higher level requests and potential
changes that we are aware of that we thought you should address this evening. So, just
in conclusion, then, this is a refresher as well and this kind of goes to the point that was
just made, we don't have that final document. There are going to be some changes.
Even if you didn't make any of the changes we just talked about there is some things that
staff has and so we need to kind of clean it up, dress it up for in resolution form, put it in
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the draft -- you know, the -- pretty it up, get it to you. It's not going to change anything in
context, but it will make it print quality, user friendly type of things and, then, any other
changes as well. So, we would need some time to -- to address those changes, but just
as a -- as a refresher you could make the action to adopt it, but we would still bring that
back to you for approval of the resolution to make sure it's what you -- what you -- you
wanted it to look and read. So again -- and this is a repeat of the slide, but just we -- we
stand at the ready to implement the plan. Without adoption of the plan we are going to
keep working the existing plan and I think I would just say -- and I'm not -- hopefully this
isn't over the top with this, but the longer we wait to adopt the plan, the longer we have to
wait to implement the plan and there is some things in the draft plan that I think the
community wants us to adopt even before the plan and so I would just -- again, you have
some things to weigh here, but just remember that, that we stand at the ready to go on
this thing, but we can't until we actually have it. So, if you want to send it back to the
steering committee, yes, we will do that. You want to send it back to P&Z, yes, we will do
that. You won't see real changes in our community. It's going to be business as usual
until we get this adopted. So, largely business as usual I should -- you know, things are
changing, but we can't implement this until it's adopted. So, I think that's -- that's probably
-- and, then, just kind of in that same vein -- and this is really the -- I think some of the
closing remarks last time was, you know, there is a recognition we have a new Mayor
that's been elected and three new Council Members and the conversation about should
we wait and have them be there to adopt and that's -- to me that's separate than even the
conversation you just had a minute ago. That in and of itself I don't necessarily think that
that's a reason to wait and I will tell you why, because we have spoken as staff to those
folks that are coming in and -- and I'm not putting words in their mouth, but I think they
are excited about the new plan generally speaking. I'm not going to say they are all a
hundred percent in favor of every word that's in there, because I haven't asked them that
question, but they are excited to implement a new plan for our community and I can say
that and I do know that two of them have been actively involved in this, one being a
Planning and Zoning Commissioner that recommended approval and voted to
recommend approval, too, of the plan. Another one that sat on the steering committee,
so -- and just things to consider. I'm not saying -- I'm not trying to pressure you into
adopting it, but just to -- to refresh your memory that it has been vetted through that
process and even the -- the new elected officials that are coming on board we think are
largely up to speed on -- on what's included. So, with that we kind of went through it, but
I will be here to be your Vanna White or whatever, but we will go back to different areas,
different slides, Brian and I will try to answer questions, but that's how we framed it up for
the rest of the discussion tonight.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I have one more question for Vanna. In regard to -- there was -- there was -- I was
just looking through my notes and I -- there was -- there was one question in regard to a
FLUM request and it was some land in between Lake Hazel and Columbia that was low
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density and got moved to medium density -- wanting to know what the process was with
that. I don't know if that's too broad. The homeowner wasn't specific.
Hood: Yeah.
Bernt: That's all that was told to me.
Hood: Madam Mayor, Council Member Bernt, can you -- that request doesn't even sound
familiar. I heard between Lake Hazel and Columbia. What were the east-west streets?
What were the general vicinity we were --
Bernt: I was told Lake Hazel and Columbia. That's pretty big.
De Weerd: That's a big area.
Bernt: Yeah. It's too vague, unless you know what I'm talking about. I apologize.
Hood: That request does not sound familiar to me. I don't remember reading anything
or talking to anybody. I could be wrong. We have talked to hundreds of people for the
last 18 months, but without more details I'm not quite sure what -- what request that might
be.
McClure: Madam Mayor, Councilman Bernt.
De Weerd: Brian.
McClure: We did have a lot of requests and I don't know which specific one that was as
well, but I can speak to generally speaking there were some changes around the park. A
request had come in for that to go from low to medium. Public Works reviewed that, said
we could service it -- the area shown as medium and the steering committee did buy off
on -- on that. There were some requested that they didn't say yes to. I don't know if there
was others that they said no to, but the area around the Discovery Park had a little bit of
a change there from low to medium. I don't know if that helps at all or not.
Hood: I will just toggle and you can kind of see the changes from adopted. So, this is,
again, what's on the books now. You can see some more low around Discovery Park.
Some mixed use kind of along the frontage and, then, a draft against some of that low to
medium and that mixed use to a medium and I don't know if that's the right area. And,
again, I can do this. We can toggle back and forth, go between adopted and draft if you
would like.
Bernt: Madam Mayor, one last question. Were -- were there any requests or changes to
the FLUM that were made after the steering committee's recommendation to Planning
and Zoning that weren't discussed, but were changed? And, if so, why?
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McClure: Madam Mayor, Councilman Bernt, again, it's those -- those ones we mentioned
before. So, it's the one --
Bernt: The ones we talked about.
McClure: Yeah. So, it's -- so, it's the Rustler Lane one.
Bernt: Right.
McClure: That came in afterwards --
Bernt: Right.
McClure: -- and staff thought, oh, yeah, that makes sense, because it --
Bernt: Sure.
McClure: -- can't develop as anything else. There was the Magic Bridge area --
Bernt: Right.
McClure: -- and then -- what was the other one, Caleb?
Hood: El Gato.
McClure: El Gato Lane. We made a small change there with some office that did not get
forwarded onto you. What got forwarded onto you was the much scaled back version
that's in the staff report.
Bernt: With the low density -- or the -- minus the office.
McClure: But those are the only changes I'm aware of, so -- those are the only changes.
Bernt: Okay.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Caleb, we also had many questions -- and I know it was on your last slide about
open space and amenities and all that, but asking us to make the UDC amendments to
coincide with the adoption of the comp plan, as opposed -- as opposed to it taking months
and months afterwards to finally implement. I have been asking for years, so I'm kind of
on that bandwagon myself, but --
De Weerd: I'm not sure what your question is.
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Milam: Well, what it -- is that -- is that something that you guys have talked about or
considered or you're just kind of putting it off until after this is done and --
De Weerd: Typically the -- in the past -- and I can only talk about the past -- the comp
plan has to be adopted and, then, you align your codes to coincide with it to support it.
Certainly after the adoption you can prioritize those areas that you want to see maybe an
interim code until -- because I think staff has been very forthcoming in saying we want to
put together a working group and -- and really dive into the open space thing. That will
take time. So, you're not going to have a fully informed policy on that, but if -- if there are
some changes that this Council wants to do as they consider adopting the plan to have
brought back as an interim, certainly that's your purview as well.
Hood: Madam Mayor, that -- that was a fine explanation. I guess I do want to respond,
though, because this is something that has lingered for many months and I'm not going
to -- please don't hear this as me making excuses, because this is a known thing we
need to address. It's largely what the Mayor said. We -- it's best practice to have the
comp plan that guides, then, what you're changing your standards to. That will certainly
help us say we need to raise the bar, because we have these policies that say raise the
bar. We know, though, that the bar needs to be raised, even absent that plan. The reality
is -- is the time. It's the time. I don't have time to manage 19 different projects. I need to
put some of these to bed, so I can open up new ones. I can't do shared vehicle -- and,
again, I'm not trying to make excuses, but it is resources and bandwidth. I can't start new
projects -- and we are short staffed and, again, please, don't hear that as an excuse, but
it's the reality of it. I don't have the manpower to take on -- this is a major activity. I don't
want to say we haven't done anything with open space and amenities, we are still talking
about and playing with and toying with when it's time, when we get that group together,
let's hit the ground running. Let's come up with some potential solutions. But we can't
officially kick that off for those reasons right now, because I just can't throw another ball
in the air and try to keep them all in the air.
Bernt: Right.
Hood: So -- but this is hugely important. I totally agree. We want to address it, too. And
we will.
Milam: Madam Mayor? Thank you. Thank you for that response, Caleb, and I -- and I
like the idea of the interim land to -- so that we don't have to -- so, that you don't have to
wait and put pressure on the working group and -- and all that you're doing so you can
make sure that you get it right, without trying to just hurry through and get it done. So,
I'm okay with that.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
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Borton: And part of that process will be the staff being the applicant with the UDC text
amendment to, then, get published and go to P&Z and then -- I mean the gunk of process
also is going to make it not instant to adopt UDC text concurrently with the comp plan.
So, I think that probably speaks more to why the comp plan -- I would love to move on
this thing. But your question on -- not tonight necessarily, but to your comment if we need
to clean it up and bring it back, is that a one week, two week time process for you? How
quick is --
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, if I can just understand, Councilman Borton, your question,
Clean up, what, the open space and amenities or the comp plan?
Borton: The comp plan.
Hood: It depends on the changes; right? I mean it depends on what -- if the direction
tonight is to go create a new rural designation, then, that's going to be more than a week
or two. It is probably more the process that you guys talked about. Let's get some type
of a committee -- steering committee, whatever, or remand it back to P&Z or whatever,
that's -- unless you are simply going to take the existing rural designation we have and
continue to use that, that's a bigger lift. If it's tweak a little bit of the text and change this
map and change that map, we can do that in a couple weeks. And I didn't mean to say
-- to have this looming as, you know, adopt this or else we are not going to do any other
work. It's not a threat. We are not trying to --
Cavener: Madam Mayor? Sorry, Caleb, I don't meant to --
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: But, Caleb, I don't think that you are -- you are creating doom and gloom and
trying to scare us. I think you are -- you are providing a very accurate picture of what is
going on within your department right now as the city continues to grow. I guess as we
kind of discuss this, the other part that I guess I maybe want to plant a seed for Madam
Mayor and -- and your team is I think we have benefited from Logan Simpson and their
expertise in helping a lot of this process. Is there some of these other things that Council
Member Milam is talking about that we could rely on another subject matter expert to
relieve some of that burden? Because I will tell you from a -- from a budget amendment
standpoint, with all the challenges you guys have going on in your department, if we can
bring in some external help to relieve this growing list of things that you guys are doing a
great job of carrying on your shoulders, like, sign me up. I'm super supportive.
De Weerd: Well, great. Because we will be coming back for a budget amendment and
so that is awesome to hear.
Cavener: Fantastic.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, do you mind if I just expand on that a little bit?
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De Weerd: I think you can, yes.
Hood: Similar to my comments on open space, that is at the top of the list for us to get a
little bit of -- staff will be involved, we will have some bandwidth to be involved, but we --
we are looking to expedite it and we want -- and I don't want to get into all -- like -- like
shared vehicles, I'm not going to go through the RFP and all that with you, but -- but at a
high level we are looking for a team of one or two that really can facilitate the dialogue
between existing citizens and the development community to raise the bar where no one's
happy; right? We don't -- we don't want anybody -- but we are meeting in the middle
somewhere and they can facilitate that discussion and come up with standards that are
right for our community. Quite honestly, staff's a little too close to it and we need a third
party that can say objectively here is -- here is what we think is the best for your
community when it comes to a package of open space and amenities. So, we have -- I
think what I shared with the Mayor was seven or eight different kind of priority projects
and here is what -- I'm going to kind of walk this line a little bit here. Prioritization of
policies and projects by new Mayor and City Council. Sort of. Once you adopt this I have
got four budget amendments I'm going to put on your desk and say if -- if you are ready,
let's roll on these or pick one or two of them and let's roll on them and if you want to punt
and we will look at the rest of them when the new Mayor -- but I'm -- there is four of them
that we are going to say we think these -- these are important. We should do them now,
because we got a new plan. That's in the works right now. But I'm not sharing that with
you, because I don't have the plan yet that -- so --
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Just to kind of move it along, back to your earlier slides, this -- one track might
be -- I think we can give you direction right now. I mean we have read all the letters and
heard public testimony. Again, not voting right now and review the steering committee's
work and P&Z -- watched all of the discussion there, so I don't know what prevents us
from giving you the direction on these items right now and if it could come back in two
weeks, assuming our direction isn't off the rails -- and one path may be you could do that
and take a look at it and you can open -- reopen the public hearing as to what we have
addressed. Because here is the reality is you are going to have -- the alternative is if it
gets remanded you are going to be May before you adopt a comp plan and so if you have
it open in a couple -- a couple weeks, that's my thought on it, and provide -- and have
people provide public testimony and that might change my perspective.
De Weerd: And, Mr. Borton, you could -- you could -- it's still an open public test -- or
public hearing. It was for written testimony. You could open it next week for -- to only
provide testimony on these new items that are new and ask for testimony on that and --
and, then, if you are going to contemplate that to -- to close it and make some -- a
recommendation. One way or another. If you want to put it back or forward, but --
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Borton: And, Madam Mayor, even if it gets remanded to -- as you are describing as
another option, let's -- let's provide direction. Right now as we look at these slides, it
appears that X is the most reasonable solution in light of all we have reviewed there. Let's
adjust it accordingly and either that adjusted plan gets remanded to the steering
committee or it stays with us, but let's go. I don't know why we can't --
De Weerd: And -- and I think that -- that staff is really excited. You know, there is a timing
element here to get moving on the next steps and the next steps are going to be the
things that are where the rubber meets the road and that the next elected officials can
weigh in on the priorities.
Borton: If the alternative approach is preferred, this --
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
Borton: Weigh in.
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I think that's what's -- that's what's great about this body. We have got lots of
different ways to get to Las Vegas and we can all kind of take whichever way we think is
-- is best. To me, if this was one or two where we are shading something here a little bit
different, we are putting a different designation in maybe one other spot, I think that
process makes sense. But what we are contemplating is -- is an entire new designation
that wasn't incorporated in this map. So, if -- if we say, yes, we want that designation,
what does that, then, do to the map? So, I don't know if staff can even come back with
that recommendation in two weeks. That part concerns me. I think staff has done a
remarkable job to follow through on our charter to them to get this done by the end of the
year. In my opinion they have accomplished that. But I don't think that means we need
to, you know, wrap this up at the end of the year, unless -- unless we have got all of our
answers. Council Member Borton, your piece about taking out the sample zoning and
asking for something that's beefier, to me that is a perfect role for that committee to define
those definitions and I think that's also an opportunity to take some of the feedback that
we heard from the public about maybe those definitions, including some things we heard
about like buffers and transitions within that. So, that that's the meatier piece maybe that
you are alluding to. So, if staff think they can come back with something for us in -- in two
weeks, I'm more than welcome to give them the benefit of the doubt. It just seems very
audacious and to me is it circumventing the process that we have lined out from the
beginning.
De Weerd: Well, I don't know what direction you all are going in. I'm sure staff is sitting
there wondering that themselves. But I will say staff -- our staff are the experts. They
have been involved in every public outreach and they have done that ad nauseum. They
know what our public is -- is saying. They are the experts and they -- they are vetting this
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and they are making a recommendation to the elected officials who have been updated
for the last 18 months along the way. These new things I think it's really Brian and Caleb's
-- when they could bring back what it would all look like for Council to make a decision or
you can kick the can down the road and ask for more input from your Planning and Zoning
Commission, who are also charged to -- to vet and to make decisions on these and I think
our public -- our Planning and Zoning has done a very good job on that. Or you can put
it back to the steering committee, who has also been intricately involved. It's -- it's going
to be the majority of the Council that make that decision, but I think that you have the
information, we have the experts, and if you are ready to move along so we can do the
next steps or the future Mayor and Council do the next steps, let's just get this moving.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
Borton: We can't talk anymore. Oh.
De Weerd: I agree. We can just debate this ad nauseum.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: I just echo Councilman Borton. I -- I think that the -- when I first sat down and
saw this I was like, oh, no, there is no way this happened. But, then, I read through it and
it's not that big of a deal. It really is just an explanation of what -- most of it is just an
explanation of why things are what they are recommended and that makes sense to me.
I think a few of the changes that are being recommended since are -- clearly they make
sense. So, let's do it and if something comes up later that is, oh, shoot -- fix it. But in the
meantime, 500 different policies, the whole flippin map here, let's get the thing approved
and, then, make the little tweaks rather than delay the entire thing and hold off this whole
process and in the whole community over a few little hang ups. Everybody has a few little
hang ups. But as a whole this thing's good and let's get it done.
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor. I tend to agree with Councilman Borton. I think we have
maybe made a few tweaks tonight that can make things a little bit better and clearer. I
really like the idea of using -- was it the Purdam Drain as -- as the designation on the one
area in general industrial, but I think that we have got a good product. I haven't read all
the way through all of the minutes that Caleb sent me from the committee -- from the
steering committee, but I think that throughout the process the steering committee, you
know, had really good discussion and I don't think send -- remanding it back would make
much of a difference, especially since we decided to take the designations off of the
zoning. So, I think we have got a really good product that can at least go the next step
among this body.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I just wanted to point out, I guess this is -- something that Caleb brought up earlier
on a slide -- there is like these five other items that we kind of blew over -- I don't want us
to do anything without at least addressing those and the -- like Locust Grove and McMillan
is to me a no brainer, like this -- we are -- we are running this guy in circles and there is
no way -- it's a lose-lose situation unless we adjust that and -- and I think, you know, a
couple of these might be really easy fixes. So, I think that we really had a good
conversation on most of everything else tonight. We kind of went by this real quick and I
don't want anything to happen without those being addressed and I have to go. I'm sorry.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I feel like we all have some things that we want to tweak. We want to talk about.
Some talking points that we want to discuss. For me to say anything more than that would
be just talking and so I'm for -- let's -- let's have the discussion. Let's go. I don't see any
use of prolonging this -- this -- this process. I think we should just get on it and start
talking about it and hashing it out amongst this body and let's go. Anything beyond that
is just me pontificating at this moment. So, let's get -- let's get moving. That's my thought.
De Weerd: So, Council, I'm recommending to -- to take a 15 minute break and collect
your thoughts and, then, we will seek your direction as -- as to how best to have the
dialogue and make a decision on the direction we want to go.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Just to explain why I probably won't be back after the break. There was mention
of finding ways to Vegas. I'm literally getting on a plane in like nine hours to Vegas and I
want to go home and pack and go to bed and so it doesn't sound like we are voting on
this tonight, but I feel completely comfortable in whatever direction you guys give to them
to come back where I won't be here though.
De Weerd: Well, if you want we can wait until you have to leave and have the discussion
now. I just thought it would be good to give you guys a few minutes to collect your
thoughts and we are seeking direction on --
Cavener: Madam Mayor? It sounds like what I have heard from the body is we have
come back in two weeks, I mean, do you -- do you -- staff, you're looking for direction
from all of us about what you want us -- to bring us back in two weeks? Because if that
-- I think that's towards where Council Member Bernt was talking about and if that's the
case -- I just don't know if you feel like that you have got direction from us about what you
would want to see in two weeks.
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Hood: Oh. I mean. Sorry, but to answer that directly, Madam Mayor, Councilman
Cavener, particularly on the first one on the screen now, I mean that one is more than a
two week thing to me. Even without that general direction. If there is a change there. If
not, I think -- and here is how I guess I would propose it. Have the conversation kind of
-- kind of at Councilman Bernt's recommendation and, then, we will look at the whole of
the thing and I will tell you that's a two week thing or that's a two month thing or a two
years thing. I mean I don't know what -- it's hard for me to tell you when I can give you a
deliverable when I don't know what I'm supposed to be giving you yet. So, maybe work
your way through these and go, man, this is a big lift or, hey, these are -- yeah, these are
pretty simple. We can do that in two weeks. I -- I just don't know. I don't -- I haven't heard
that consensus from you all yet, so it's hard to answer.
De Weerd: So, Caleb, the recommendation you made, the new language is -- what is the
time element on that? Maybe that's a good starting talking point.
Hood: Madam Mayor, this is staff's recommendation. The other ones we have largely
tried to stay neutral on. This is what -- we do not propose a rural, rural estate, ultra low
designation. This is our -- I'm not going to say it solves the problem as the testimony you
heard, but we think this is in the best interest of our community. It's largely the text that
was there in low, but we have doubled the words you can see there. I mean everything
in underline is new and we have the new policy. So, this is done. I mean this -- if you all
agree with it, it's -- I don't need anytime. I take the underline off and we roll it into the text
of the plan.
Borton: Madam Mayor? For the purposes of the -- the second hearing, that's by -- and
removing the red, the sample zoning from that --
Hood: That's easy.
Borton: I think that's a good --
De Weerd: Okay. So --
Borton: -- like us to utilize for our next hearing.
De Weerd: Okay. Next item you need clarification on. The sample zoning. I think it was
clear to remove that.
Hood: So, I heard remove the sample zoning. I don't -- I didn't -- wasn't counting votes
there, but I -- I thought I heard more people --
De Weerd: I thought I --
Hood: -- take it out for now at least.
De Weerd: Okay.
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Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Take it out, but is -- do we take it out and it's gone or we take it out and replace
it with something else? That's a piece that I guess I'm confused about.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, Councilman Cavener -- and I did make some notes when you
were talking about this, so I think there is -- we need to still do a better job of educating
and having people understand that that -- how the comp plan designations and zoning
work, even if we don't have it in the text of the comp plan. So, we will think on more ways
that we can educate people and make it more intuitive. I know it's something Councilman
Palmer brought -- Palmer brought up last week about they don't align and it's confusing
and if you are not a subject matter expert it is and it's tough -- when you're not in the
trenches every day it's a tough one to -- when you deal with it once in your lifetime it's
tough to try to educate the public at large with that, but we will think on how -- how can
we do that kind of the point. If you adopt this maybe we can come back with it, you know,
let -- hey, boy, there is some things we can do or insert into the text that really does make
that relationship more clear. So, it's not like it just goes away as a thought or a policy or
something else to do, but we wouldn't actively propose anything in the next two weeks
say. This is an ongoing thing that we have got to learn how we can better relate to our
public and help them understand the process, the development process, and, again,
zoning and planning and the comp plan. So, I don't have that solution. If I did we would
have implemented it years ago, because, again, this is an outstanding thing that just -- I
think inherent to zoning and comp plan is just -- it's confusing.
De Weerd: So, is there a simple -- something you can put in there? Because I know this
comes up today -- is you are asking for an R-8, everyone's concerned about the R-8 and,
really, it's an R-4 that wants the setbacks of an R-8. Is there a way that you can clarify
that in -- in this low density no more than three per acre. However, you can configure it
in a number of different ways.
Hood: Madam Mayor, we could add some -- some --
De Weerd: Yeah.
Hood: -- I mean we add that language -- or maybe that's the beefing up that -- that is
looked for in some of these, you know, to say, you know, medium does not mean -- you
know, R-4 or R-8, it means you will -- you will have between three and eight dwelling units
per acre and that can be accomplished a variety of different ways with, you know,
clustering lots that may be 2,000 square feet, so you can get a five acre park next to it.
I'm open to some of those things. We just -- we haven't gone that way, because there are
a lot of different ways you could skin the cat and I don't want that to even be taken, well,
that's how you have to do it then there. The text says you have to have 2,000 square foot
lots with a five acre park next to it. So, again, I don't have that silver bullet. I wish I did,
because this is something that even, Madam Mayor, just now the zoning -- the R-4, there
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is nothing in our UDC that talks about density. R-4 does not mean four dwelling units per
acre. R-8 doesn't -- I mean we removed that years ago, yet people still think R-8 means
up to eight dwelling units per acre. It does not.
Bernt: Right.
De Weerd: Okay. So, remove sample zoning.
McClure: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Brian.
McClure: Madam Mayor, I -- just on your question there, there is -- and I don't have the
page number in front of me now, because I'm looking on the mobile friendly version, but
there is a new kind of blue box in the plan that does have a conversation about future
land use and zoning and being different. So, that is in there. It doesn't say which ones
are which, but it does -- it does describe them together as being different things. So,
there is some -- there is some, quote, help in there now, without getting into the weeds of
which one goes where.
De Weerd: Okay.
Hood: And we have developed handouts and other things -- and, again, you know, we
are trying -- we really are trying to kind of bridge that gap, but --
Borton: It's on page 3-8.
Hood: Density ranges. I didn't hear anybody have any concerns with that. That, again,
more of just a disclosure, that's a change to the way we have historically done business
there. And, then, again, low would be the lowest we have. If there is not a new
designation -- I don't know if there is much to talk about there if there is not an uber low.
Pause on this one, though. Unless you want to go back.
Borton: Madam Mayor. If we could just go back to make sure. The recommendation on
the right is the recommendation that would proceed to the new draft you are bringing
back, if there is any questions or --
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: With the new proposed designation -- sorry. Madam Mayor. So,
clarification --
De Weerd: New language?
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Cavener: -- you are saying the new designation to be applied -- the P&Z recommendation
here or to leave it as is?
Borton: Madam Mayor, the P&Z recommendation, which has the green low density, which
has a more -- a different definition now, but the map is as it is on the right.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I -- I'm clear now. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay.
Hood: I would just say -- and we are moving along, so I hate to do this, but if -- if you
wanted us to figure out where we are going to use a new designation, that would be more
than a two week process. Right? That -- that -- that's a lot of work, so again -- so, Magic
Bridge then --
Bernt: Madam Mayor. So, we are done with Rustle?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt. Uh-huh.
Bernt: So, my only issue with the Rustler area is that I just honestly really believe that
this identity in this -- this area should be kept and I appreciate what staff has done. My
only concern with this area is -- are the buffers. I don't know if I necessarily like having
up to three units bordering this area. I would -- I would prefer it to be lower than three
units per acre. And so that would be my only concern in regard to just surrounding this
-- this area.
De Weerd: But I think with the new language that --
Bernt: I guess it's like one to three, I guess, so it could be. The density in the new
definition is one to three I guess. So, I guess that makes sense.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, if I can just -- maybe I will use the pointer. So, with the new
text and this designation -- so first of all -- and this is going to be going the wrong way
from where you were concerned -- this designation would actually allow up to eight
dwelling units per acre next to these homes. The text we have added, though, say the
first block here you better make a really nice buffer and open space or at a minimum one
acre lots there or larger. They can be larger, but they have to be at least one acre. But it
will be higher density as you get away from there and it will transition from that. So, I just
want to be clear that there will -- there will be at least three dwelling units per acre over
all of this, but that won't be adjacent to them --
Bernt: Okay.
Hood: -- it will be internal or further away or whatever.
De Weerd: Okay.
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Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: You know what's mortifying? To maybe say something that's not -- the everything
of -- for the majority of the people in the room. So, I will go first. I am fine with the
recommendation. I don't think -- I think -- thinking long term, which is the point of the plan,
that the reality is the properties as they exist now, if they would stay that way and, then,
so be it, but as a planning purpose, left to go on, essentially, that that may change and if
it were to change this is what makes sense. Because that freeway is not going to get any
quieter, no matter how many Teslas you put on there. Tires on the pavement, not the
engine sound.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I -- I think that's -- it's spot on. I think that's the long term decision making that
might be difficult in the short term, but when I read the mixed use neighborhood definition
and what it's to be, I think that does fit in this and long term it might be 50 years before
any of these properties ever stopped being low density residential, but when that day
comes that these properties make their choice to sell and develop, I think their choice will
be best fit with the mixed use neighborhood uses in the comp plan. So, the
recommendation makes the most sense to me as well. And I didn't initially feel that way,
but I think that's the best long term planning tool.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: This has been a toughy for me, for obvious reasons. There has been a lot of
confusion and there has been a lot of -- even recent e-mails that we received talking
about, you know -- you know, streets going down the middle of this development or people
being forced out of their homes in order for development to occur and -- and I don't know
where that information has come from, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It is
literally against the law for -- for -- for -- to enforce any type of eminent domain for a private
development. It cannot happen. And so if you guys choose not to sell your homes, then,
you can live there for as long as you want. So, I echo the words of Mr. Palmer and Mr.
Borton, that if you want to live in your house for the next 50 years and this use is going
-- even if a private developer wants to come in and change it, if you don't want to sell you
don't have to sell. So, I -- I don't want there to be any miscommunication regard to a road
that's going to go down the middle of it anytime soon or if people having to be forced to
sell their properties in order for that to happen. I don't know of any conversation that I
have heard in regard to -- to that and so in the long term aspect of what this property or
what this area -- what the highest and best use is going forward in the future, whenever
-- whenever that might be, I believe that mixed -- mixed use neighborhood and what's per
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-- what's been proposed by P&Z Commission has -- and staff is -- is what we need to go
with.
De Weerd: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Madam Mayor, I have really gone back and forth on this one, but I tend to
agree with what's been said that it could be years, but I think we have still got a lot of
confusion regarding the difference between annexation and zoning is not what a future
land use designation is and I think -- I don't know if there is a way that we can help that
area understand that what they have got isn't changing, because the FLUM changes or if
that's like too big an ask to try to help them work through that, because we saw the love
and the passion for that area and it doesn't change because we change the designation
on the map.
Bernt: Right.
Little Roberts: I don't think they understood that.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I will kind of echo everyone else's comments. I actually -- I think that the
residents do understand this. I think that we have had some really engaged people be
involved in this process at the citizen level and I have seen the TV stories and I have read
the newspaper stories about this particular area. I think -- I think our citizens do get what
the change could potentially be and, you know, they are looking at it from this is their
home where they have lived for a significant amount of time and, you know, where as a
body are we looking at what this will likely look like when we are all gone, you know, a
hundred years from now and so that's where that I think conflict falls. The fact of the
matter is I don't think as City Council Meridian would ever approve low density residential
adjacent to the interstate. You just would never do that. And so I applaud staff for making
the -- going through the rigmarole on this. P&Z. I agree with the P&Z recommendation.
I mean if I were to make any change it would be to push the commercial out a little bit
further that we see on the adopted plan, but by and large the part that most of the
testimony has been about about the mixed use neighborhood I think is an appropriate
designation. For the first time that I think we are all in agreement.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: This might be another one. I thought your -- your suggestion and Councilman
Little Roberts brought it up as well -- seemed to fit as a reasonable compromise and meet
the interests of -- let's blend the interest at least of all of the information that received
where that -- was it Purdam?
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De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Borton: Being the alternate divider of land industrial north of the tracks.
De Weerd: Okay.
Hood: So, at Councilman Milam's request, I am prepared to go through these one by one
if -- if -- it seems like we made it through the other one, so that -- that seems appropriate
to me as well. And Brian -- Brian has something and I will get the map up while he is --
McClure: Madam Mayor, Council, just a quick clarification on the list Caleb just had up.
ACHD's not asking us to remove that area from -- remove that property from our area of
city impact at this time. The -- the bigger ask is change it to industrial to reflect what's
west and east and, then, there may be a request in the future to do that. They haven't
decided whether they want to go to Meridian or to Boise yet. Just make it industrial
regardless as they request.
De Weerd: And that certainly takes an MU or G out of the middle of two industrial. It
seems odd, so makes sense.
Hood: Okay. I'm glad Brian clarified that. So, that sounds like that's a fairly recent
request. So, the request, then, we have -- and we have representation requests from all
three of those property owners. Without getting too much into this -- this request to
change this to general industrial was made within the last couple of years and at that time
we questioned leaving behind these parcels. If we are going to change this much of a
mixed use regional designation, why not change the whole thing. We just didn't have
consent from these property owners at that time. This one seems to be pretty clean. So,
everyone -- I think -- it hasn't gone through that process, hasn't been through the steering
committee, hasn't been through the public, but it seems pretty clean. The next request,
then, again, is off of Pine, Hickory, Rosario -- this area here. Again, I will toggle. So, the
draft -- sorry, I should have started with the adopted. The adopted has industrial on all of
this area. The draft proposal is to take some of that to a mixed use community
designation. Some property owners and, then, there are -- I don't know what his title is.
He represents the Business Owners Association. I received a letter today requesting that
that not be -- to go to mixed use nonresidential. I haven't ground truthed that. I don't
know -- this used to be Dennis Baker's. I'm not even quite sure who owns it today,
actually.
De Weerd: Scentsy owns it.
Hood: Scentsy owns a lot of this and that's who the letter today we got from was Scentsy
controlled a lot of this land around here and that's who the letter was came from was Sam
Johnson, Gemtone Center Owners Association president, who, again, also works for
Scentsy, concurring with what Becky McKay requested last week that this go to mixed
use nonresidential. So, again, that would be this -- this area here and staff doesn't believe
that's inappropriate. We haven't done the full analysis on -- what does that do to our
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portfolio of land uses, but, again, on its face doesn't seem to be bad -- a bad thing to go
to. We are proposing a change anyways from industrial to -- to mixed use. So, to go to
mixed use nonresidential -- flavor of mixed use change doesn't seem to be drastic.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I have got a question -- another question for Vanna over there. Do you feel like
you want to do some more analysis on that? I mean is it -- are you comfortable with that
-- that change or --
Hood: Honestly, this one -- and I hate to just sort of flippantly say, yeah, this is okay. I
think that this is probably appropriate. Again, we were -- we had analyzed it already for
a change to mixed use anyways. It's that flavor of mixed use and the difference between
mixed -- the mixed use flavor that had been vetted through the steering committee and
what they are requesting for. The only difference is it doesn't allow residential.
Bernt: There seems to be --
Hood: And their CC&Rs prohibit residential. So, it seems like there is not a whole lot to
really --
Bernt: There is a lot of residential over there.
Hood: Over here today you're seeing a whole bunch of residential and just adjacent. So,
again, I'm pretty comfortable with this -- with those -- those things being really the only
thing we have considered, but that seems pretty straightforward. The next one, Locust
Grove and McMillan. This area appears as largely to request the entire thing has --
currently has mixed use neighborhood designation and the request is to go to commercial.
De Weerd: Any comments from Council on that? Any issues with --
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I don't have any issues.
De Weerd: Okay.
Hood: Then southwest corner of Amity and Meridian. So, you did not hear testimony,
although the same law firm that represents this property owner also represents the
property owner at Amity and Meridian. They did testify at the Planning and Zoning
Commission and we have talked to them as staff and -- sorry it's taking me a while to get
there. Close. It is this property here. They do have a letter. It's quite lengthy. I think it
was like three pages, but included both of those recommendations. So, the one we just
talked about at Locust Grove and McMillan and this one. So, that is in your packet. It
does not include -- turn this off for just a second. It does not include this parcel. But it's
everything else that's here. Their request is to go from medium density residential to
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either commercial or mixed use community. This -- this one we struggled with a little bit
more, but I'm not going to get into all of -- this one has been vetted a little bit more. Again,
we aren't going to say it's the worst idea in the world if you -- in fact, it may be appropriate
-- wholly appropriate to go to mixed use community or commercial. It's just with absent
any other rural development proposal to tag along with it, that was really the hang up from
the steering committee and staff was to just give them a designation without some
guarantee of how that's going to transition to the residential and access to the state
highway and some of those things that you can really kind of tie down with a development
proposal. But, again, medium density residential here, I'm not going to say that makes a
whole lot of sense either, so --
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: At first blush that doesn't give me any concern either. Again, going back and
reading the text of intent with the mixed use community and what it generally is intended
to provide for, similar to the project on McMillan and seeing how it can expand available
uses of the property maybe in a more efficient way seems to fit.
De Weerd: I guess I would agree with staff and the steering committee, without seeing
what the intent is it could generate a lot of trips and they are all going through
neighborhoods. So, leaving it to a future Council to make the decision based on a
proposal at this point seems to least have a little bit more discretion, than leaving it the
current designation, which is compatible to what it would be driving through.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I'm -- I'm in agreement with you. I think that the current designation that's been
assigned seems appropriate. A change may be warranted, but without a lot of information
just because we are being asked doesn't necessarily mean we need to make the change.
So, I'm -- I'm more supportive of leaving it as is, recognizing that the owner wants to make
a change and bring a compelling reason to us at a future time.
De Weerd: And this -- this one has a lot of challenges with access out of there, so it just
-- Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Madam Mayor, I agree. I mean I look at it every day when I pass it. I have lived
there my whole life and -- and every time I have driven all around that I'm like what are
they going to do with this property someday. So, yeah, I don't know what -- change it
now, change it later. But, hopefully, a future council listening like this one may make
sense, even if it's sooner than later when there is something to actually look at. But for
now it's like what do you do.
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De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Borton: So, designation stays the same?
Hood: Change to that one. And, then, the last one that, again, I think that is -- at least in
a more recent request would be the 40 acres there at -- it's bisected, then, by future State
Highway 16. We received that letter yesterday. It's currently what you see on the map
here is this -- this designation is mixed use interchange. It calls for a mix of uses like our
other mixed use designations, but a little less intensity on the retail or auto dominated
side, because of its proximity to an interchange. So, we weren't hoping for convenience
stores and things with a lot of trips, because you are already going to have kind of
inherently a lot of trips there and that conflicts with what the property owner not wholly
wants to do with their property, but certainly in the influence of the interchange. If you
read their letter some of what they would like to do is not consistent with that -- that
designation, so they have requested mixed use -- getting mixed use regional instead
mixed use interchange. So, flavor of mixed use -- still mixed use, but it wouldn't -- it would
be a little more lenient towards -- or less restrictive on the types of commercial uses you
could get in that designation.
Bernt: Madam Mayor. Example would be, Caleb?
Hood: A convenience store.
Bernt: Would be allowed.
Hood: A gas station. Well, with appropriate zoning you potentially could do that. On the
-- the comp plan currently would say those are the types of uses we aren't looking for.
So, that flavor -- there is some real impacts there. I guess the other thing I would just say
is this area is part of The Fields area that we did that specific outreach to. We spent quite
a bit of time developing a concept for, you know, this -- this entire area that if you look at
the difference between adopted and draft future, it's substantially different. I'm not here
to tell you that if you made this change this is going to tank the whole land use plan, but
we did spend a whole lot of time on developing this concept for that area. Again,
recognizing this gets bisected. There is some some real implications. But I do want to
just point that out, that we were pretty intentional about how much commercial and the
type of commercial and how much density and where the density to kind of get this
community within a community kind of feel here and now if we potentially allow more of
those services to go to the fringe, you are less likely to see some of those neighborhoods
serving potential uses in this area, so -- and I'm not saying this is -- totally tanks it, but
there -- but this -- but we did look at this area with a little -- a little -- there is opportunity
here, right, and we looked at it that way, like there is -- there is an opportunity out here,
so -- leave it at that.
De Weerd: And I mean, really, the decision was already made in that quadrant, so it
changed. So, what's Council's direction?
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Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I'm not opposed to the -- to the change. I think holistically you achieve kind of
what was set out. It's a lot of what if statements, what if X happens then Y is going to
occur. What goes first. So, I don't see any issues with granting the change. I think it's
appropriate.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: I mean kind of using your gas station example, I went to Mountain View and with
a Maverik right there -- well, there is another Maverik one mile away. There is another --
there is a Shell already one mile away. High schools create kind of a weird micro
economic bubble that having a little bit of additional flexibility to be able to use the property
in a -- in a way that could be determined later I think only benefits everybody given the
weird circumstances that high schools create in a tiny area.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Mr. Palmer's spot on. I think the school location to me is that kind of necessary
reason that I'm supportive of the change. You look at Mountain View, you look at Rocky,
I mean, you're right, it seems like almost like micro communities that spring up around
these schools and those necessary amenities seem to make sense. So, it sounds like a
good decision.
De Weerd: I see nods.
Hood: So, I think we made it through the list. I am -- you know, again, you have some
other testimony there that wasn't here. Those are the -- those are the ones that we -- oh,
if I can just continue on. Looking at the calendar -- and I talked with Brian a little bit. It's
not quite two weeks, but with a holiday coming up and us to make some of these changes
that we talked -- again pretty -- pretty straightforward. The 17th is what -- if everything
you just said, I mean that -- that gives us a little bit of time to make these changes, to put
-- and I guess the way I would pose that to you is -- and, again, no pressure, but we would
bring it back to you with the cover being a resolution to adopt it with these changes. If
you don't like it don't adopt the resolution. But if it -- if it does everything we talked about
tonight, if that's the direction, then, the 17th. The 10th is a little too quick without getting
to kind of other balls that are in the air. I don't know that we can deliver it. But we would
try. If you really wanted it on the 10th we would try, but it makes it a little difficult, so --
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Can we see if you could try to make the 10th?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I guess my question was going to be if -- if the 17th is the date
in terms of getting that document out to the public, is that something that would, then, hit
the street on the 13th? Or would there be a way to get it out to the public sooner? And
maybe that's -- and maybe where Madam Mayor is trying to head is to get this in front of
people sooner rather than later.
Hood: So, Councilman Cavener, I mean we will -- we will make it available just as soon
as we can; right? I mean the longer it can be part of what we send to the clerk the better.
Again, the 10th -- the clerk's typical deadline, then, would be the 5th, which is next
Thursday. Tomorrow is a half day. Thursday and Friday are a holiday. That means I
have Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday to make these changes, get the resolution
together and get it to the clerk. And that only gives the public the weekend to look at it.
Again, we can shoot for the 10th, Madam Mayor, if that's -- if that's what the direction is.
It seems a little aggressive, but -- but I get it. It doesn't give you a whole lot of leeway in
the rest of the year either, so --
Cavener: You don't want to meet on Christmas Eve?
De Weerd: No.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Amongst the 17th as an option the 4:30 time slot could be something we use.
Unless we don't want to, but --
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
Borton: You could have it 4:30 and 6:00. Sorry.
Cavener: Madam Mayor. I was -- Council Member Borton got to I think the conclusion I
was going to draw is I would want to do it to both. The question is is that meeting, then,
a -- a public hearing?
De Weerd: You -- you are adding new verbiage that -- I would say so.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
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Palmer: We are never going to not read our e-mails. We will always -- we will still receive
testimony, but I feel like we have made changes based on testimony received, made
decisions, and --
De Weerd: Well -- and you would continue this all for a specific reason to receive
testimony on that.
Borton: The changes?
De Weerd: On -- yeah.
Borton: And, Madam Mayor, by testimony you mean live testimony at the hearing;
correct?
Baird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Baird.
Baird: Would you like some legal guidance?
De Weerd: We always would appreciate, especially if we need it.
Baird: When you were contemplating remanding, going back to the steering committee,
I went to the statute that tells you how you're supposed to adopt this and from what I could
tell the steering committee is a City of Meridian invention that was directed at getting a
plan in front of the Planning and Zoning Commission and that's where the state statue
starts. Planning and Zoning Commission makes a recommendation to you. That's why
you are here. Here is the language that I want you to consider whether you decide to
continue it for verbal testimony and it gets down to what you consider to be material. It
says if the governing board, which is you, make a material change in the recommendation
from the Planning and Zoning Commission concerning the adoption amendment or reveal
of the plan, further notice and hearing shall be provided before the governing board
adopts, amends, or reveals the plan. So, I made some notes as you were talking about
these. Councilman Cavener is the only one who seemed to think it was a big major
change. I saw other members talk about tweaks and organic changes to the testimony
that was brought before you. So, it's really up to you to decide do you think this is material
enough to ask for a hearing on -- only on the matters that have been changed?
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Baird.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: In light of that is what we have suggested to do within the bounds of the statute?
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Baird: If that suggestion was continue it for verbal testimony on the changes, yes, that
would be -- that would comply with the intent of the statute.
Borton: Okay. Spot on.
Baird: And my thought was Planning and Zoning Commission members are free to come
and testify. Steering committee members are free to come and testify. So, you will get
that all wrapped up in one eight.
De Weerd: And we can make sure to put an invitation out to both when we have the
changes.
Cavener: Madam Mayor. And I think that's appropriate and just sending them a copy
-- you know, all of the commissioners and steering committee all a copy the same time
that Council gets it, so --
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: As to the idea of having it on at the 4:30 and the 6:00 -- is that the plan?
Cavener: Madam Mayor, I'm supportive of that.
De Weerd: Yes. And would ask the clerk to have this as the only 6:00 o'clock item.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, you're referring to the 17th?
De Weerd: Yes.
Johnson: Okay.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: And -- and, then, I guess, Council, if that is the case, because we don't have
a meeting after that, this would show up under old business, then, on January 7th for the
decision makers to do the final yea-nay.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: I understand. Yes.
Cavener: Question for Legal, then, is -- if I'm hearing you right, would be to have -- if this
body wants --
De Weerd: If you made a motion on the 17th.
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Cavener: -- before the swearing in of the new Mayor and Council.
De Weerd: And that could be at the 4:30.
Cavener: Okay.
Baird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. --
Baird: Baird.
De Weerd: Baird.
Baird: I will bring my name tag next --
De Weerd: I only call you Ted. So, you know, it's just Ted.
Baird: I appreciate that. In following through with what Caleb said, if you ask for the
resolution on the 17th and you have made it clear what you are expecting, you will get
testimony -- if you decide to make further changes you hold off on acting on that
resolution, but Legal can help get the resolution in front of you on the 17th should you
decide to act at that time. You have got the option of putting it off as you just discussed.
De Weerd: Thank you. I love options. Council, anything further?
Bernt: Madam Mayor, one last thing. I --
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I don't mean to belabor anything. I was just reading my notes and I wanted to
make sure with Caleb and Brian one last question. In the past we have spoke about the
five specific, you know, big changes to the FLUM that were highlighted, you know, and
vetted through the steering committee and staff and -- and ourselves. We were going to
leave those areas as hashed areas. We make those changes and -- I know we spoke
about it multiple times -- and the reason I say that is I know the reason why, I know there
is some that want specific area plans in regard to those areas. I understand why that we
are not going to do that, but maybe it would be smart to leave those areas, you know,
highlighted just so that future developers understand the reasoning behind why we want
to keep those specific areas with -- with a certain type of identity that's important to those
areas. So, it just -- it's a simple move, but has, I believe, important consequences.
Hood: So, Madam Mayor, yes, we can disclose as we talk with potential developers or
those property owners. I will just tie this back in with the conversation earlier, that we
have four budget amendments that we are sitting on. One of them is to do specific area
plans on two of the areas you just mentioned. So, that's coming almost one, two. Again,
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I don't want to make too many assumptions here, but if on the 17th budget amendments
to do specific area plans there won't be a lot of time and --
Bernt: And I get it. Madam Mayor, follow up. It's just a matter of like, putting like gray
stripes along the areas. Pretty easy thing to do. So, just gnaw on that. Something that I
have gotten a lot of calls from -- from people who are really interested and I -- and I
promise that we weren't going to -- you know, not to worry, that, you know, there will be
specific area plans designated for those certain areas. My opinion residents shouldn't
have any reason to believe that, you know, we are going to do anything otherwise, but
just -- just to make sure that there is no confusion on what our future reasoning is with
those -- with those specific areas.
Hood: Madam Mayor, if I can. Sorry for the conversation. But we will relay to anybody
that comes in our door in the interim we are targeting those areas first. Even -- so, I can't
just put gray lines on there unless you direct that. I can't -- if that's -- if you want to vet
that through the rest of the Council and that's what you want on the future land use map
we can do that. I can't have another version of the future land use map in my office and
say --
Bernt: Right.
Hood: -- but we can verbally tell them we are targeting this, we are going to be moving
on projects that put more details into this area. Highly, highly, highly recommend you not
do what you are potentially talking about doing right now. Come along with us as we plan
a development for that area specifically. So, we can verbally share that -- those intents
and things, but, again, absent that I can't make gray lines or dashed lines where they
don't exist.
Bernt: Madam Mayor? Is this Council opposed to that? Are we opposed to doing that,
just that little minor change to the FLUM?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I'm not. just a -- it's a heads up --
Bernt: Right.
Borton: -- designation.
Bernt: That's all it is.
Borton: It doesn't do anything more than that, but there is some value in that. It keeps
our eye on the ball.
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Bernt: You could call it the H-U-D designation, heads up designation.
Hood: Madam Mayor, I thought we are almost done and this is going to open up a new
can, which is fine. I -- it's -- you mentioned five. I think you just said five. And Brian and
I were trying to think of what all five of them were. So, a couple of things. We are going
to need to figure out what those areas are and, then, we are going to have to -- then we
got to put in the legend and we got to come up with some text for the -- for the plan that
says what that -- what the function is of this gray hashed line. So, we don't have that for
you now. As -- the closest thing we have had historically -- back in the day we used to
have this area designated as a future planning area and we had some -- some text with
that. But I don't have that in my back pocket right now. We could potentially repurpose
that here or some version of that. Again, the five areas, though. So, Overland and Eagle
is one of them; right? Jade, Jewel, Rolling Hill -- am I -- yeah. Right here. Kind of look
at this. The Fields area. The Magic -- the Magic Bridge -- Magic View, Woodbridge area.
Bernt: Somewhere in the southwest Meridian.
Hood: You're going to have to help me out a little bit more than that. Is that between like
Lake Hazel and Columbia? Like I don't know where --
Bernt: I didn't realize it was going to be this complicated.
De Weerd: Yeah. Forget what he said. No one supports him.
Bernt: Tough to have this discussion right now without having some specific areas. But
we had -- we have like, you know, three or four right now maybe with conversation on the
future of other areas.
De Weerd: I think staff is coming back with recommendations on those -- those areas
that they want specific area plans or more detail to the districts and that will come back in
your budget amendment.
Hood: Madam Mayor, if I can just -- yes. And to channel Councilman Palmer for a minute,
if there is more of these in the future, right -- if -- if there is other fixes or -- what did you
say? Fix the screw ups or other areas; right? We -- there is an option; right? In three
months if you say, you know what, staff, go study this area for a specific area plan. We
can add a gray hashed line and -- and go study that, too. So, this isn't a one and done.
This plan is -- can be -- a gain, we take amendments seriously. So, I'm not trying to be
funny here. But you can do that in the future, too.
Bernt: Right.
McClure: Madam Mayor, if I can jump in. Just to temper expectations, so -- and --
because you guys have used specific words, specific area plans, we are not envisioning
all of these being specific area plans. An example would be the Overland area. Half of
that's under development right now; right? We are mostly concerned there with
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transportation and access. So, we could potentially -- and I don't know, but it might just
be a change to ACHD's master street map or working with them on something. So, not
all these areas are going to have -- at least as we have discussed and contemplated
specific area plans. Certainly there are some planning areas, but a specific area plan
may not be the outcome for all of these.
De Weerd: And I think because, Caleb, Council doesn't know where those
recommendations are, if you could bring -- if you could get something out, so they have
a heads up on some of the intention and on -- on the areas that you are doing the budget
amendment, that would be helpful, because that would cover some of those areas you're
-- you're probably referring to. I think the Southern Rim was one area. Okay. Was there
anything else from Council or staff? Okay. We will need a motion.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Move we continue Item 7-E to December 17th at 4:40 and at 6:00.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to -- you want to do a specific -- a public hearing
specific to --
Borton: Sorry. Yes. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Borton: Madam Mayor. To continue the public hearing for the receipt of written or live
testimony concerning the changes that were made to the draft plan at today's City Council
meeting.
Cavener: Second agrees.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All those in favor say
aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Item 8: Ordinances
A. Ordinance No. 19-1864: An Ordinance (H-2018-0051 Creamline
Park) For Rezone Of Parcel Being Described For Rezone
Purposes Being All Of Lots 1, 2, 9 And 10 And A Portion Of Lots
3 And 8 Of Block 1 Of Creamline Park Subdivision As Shown In
Book 99 Of Plats On Pages 12784 Thru 12787, Records Of Ada
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County, Idaho, And Located In The W ½ Of The SW ¼ Of
Section 12, Township 3 North, Range 1 West, Boise Meridian,
Ada County, Idaho; Establishing And Determining The Land
Use Zoning Classification From C -G (General Retail And
Service Commercial) Zoning District To I-L (Light Industrial)
Zoning District To In The Meridian City Code; Providing That
Copies Of This Ordinance Shall Be Filed With The Ada County
Assessor, The Ada County Recorder, And The Idaho State Tax
Commission, As Required By Law; And Providing For
A Summary Of The Ordinance; And Providing For A Waiver Of
The Reading Rules; And Providing An Effective Date.
De Weerd: Okay. Item 8-A is Ordinance 19-1864. Mr. Clerk, will you, please, read that
by title.
Johnson: Thank you, Madam Mayor. It's an ordinance related to H-2018-0051,
Creamline Park, for rezone of a parcel being described for rezone purposes being all of
Lots 1, 2, 9 and 10 and a portion of Lots 3 and 8 of Block 1 of Creamline Park Subdivision
as shown in Book 99 of Plats on Pages 12784 through 12787, Records of Ada county,
Idaho, and located in the W ½ of the SW ¼ of Section 12, Township 3 North, Range 1
West, Boise meridian, Ada county, Idaho; establishing and determining the land use
zoning classification from C-G (General Retail and Service Commercial) zoning district to
I-l (Light Industrial) zoning district to -- in the City of Meridian Code; providing that copies
of this ordinance shall be filed with the Ada County Assessor, the Ada county Recorder,
and the Idaho State Tax Commission, as required by law; and providing for a summary of
the ordinance; and providing for a waiver of the reading rules; and providing an effective
date.
De Weerd: You have heard this read by title. Is there anyone who would like to hear it
read in its entirety? Seeing none, Council, do I have a motion?
Borton: We don't have Genesis.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I move we approve Ordinance No. 19-1864 with suspension of rules.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to -- to approve Item 8-A. Mr. Clerk.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, absent; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea;
Bernt, yea.
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De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Item 9: Future Meeting Topics
De Weerd: Any items for nine?
Item 10: Executive Session per Idaho Code 74-206(1)(f) to communicate with
legal counsel for the public agency to discuss the legal ramifications
of and legal options for pending litigation, or controversies not yet
being litigated but imminently likely to be litigated
De Weerd: If not, I would entertain a motion under Item 10 for Executive Session.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Move we go into Executive Session pursuant to Idaho State Code 74-206(1)(f).
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adjourn into Executive Session. Mr. Clerk,
will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, absent; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea;
Bernt, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
EXECUTIVE SESSION: (8:52 p.m. to 9:36 p.m.)
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Palmer: I move we adjourn.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: No, we need to come out of Executive Session.
Palmer: Madam Mayor, I move we come out of Executive Session.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda December 10, 2019 – Page 92 of 261
Meridian City Council
November 26, 2019
Page 58 of 58
De Weerd: Do I have a second?
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to come out of Executive Session. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: I move we adjourn.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. All those in favor? All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:36 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
MAYOR TA DE WEERD DATE APPROVED
.iP-1ED AUGUST.
ATTEST: