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Minutes from May 17, 2005 C/C Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 23 of 43 17th, 2005, water service for the attached turnoff list we will be terminated on May 18th, 2005. The total amount of the turnoff list is $32,338,57, Rountree: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I move that we approve the delinquent turnoff list for May 18th in the amount of 32,338.57. Donnell: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to approve the turnoff list. All in favor? Any opposed? Motion passes. Thank you. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 18: Discussion of Black Rock Subdivision by Brad Watson, Public Works Director: Wardle: Item No. 18, a discussion of Black Rock Subdivision by Brad Watson. Watson: Thank you, Mr. President. If I may, I'd like to just pass out a hard copy of this. It didn't get into your packets last week, so if I can take a minute to do that. Mr. President, Council members, I think you know the background on this particular project. Mr. Wood has been before you two times over the last year. Last July -- Council Member Donnell was not here at that time, but he also on March 1 st talked about this project. This proposed project has about 220 acres, 50 of which would -- is approved through Ada County for a non-farm on subdivision with 44 lots, build-able lots. United Water Idaho at the -- on Mr. Wood's behalf, petitioned the Public Utilities Commission this spring to extend service -- water service into this area. The subdivision is outside the area of impact, but within that thing called the referral area. I provided written comments to the PUC in April asking them to deny the entire request. I think I have -- may not previously given you those comments, but I will. United Water's attorney provided me five .- testimony on this application. I agree that the area that was within the City of Meridian area of impact is deleted from United Water's request to expand, as is indicated, the service area. The final order from the PUC came to me yesterday. That is included in the back of that packet that I gave you. They do grant the expanded certificated area to United Water, less the area that is within Meridian's area of impact. Anna Canning and I met with Mr. Wood earlier this month to discuss options on this property. The four that we came up with -- Mr. Wood thinks there is only three, but there are four. One is a city-operated community well. Somehow we would work with Mr. Wood to get a municipal type well constructed and we could operate a satellite system. The second option is to extend city water to serve this subdivision. According to Len Grady's modeling, it looks like we would need -- there would need to be about 8,400 feet of 12-inch line just to get to the site. We didn't talk about who would build it Meridian City Councli May 17, 2005 Page 24 of 43 and costs and all of that. The third option -- well, I will give you the fourth option first, because it's very short, and that's the do nothing option, where no development takes place until we do have services out there. That's the one that Mr. Wood is, obviously, not interest in, Number three is the one that probably would have the most discussion around it and that is releasing that area, in addition to this three square miles you see on the screen that are shaded in I think light blue from the referral area. The sewer has been master planned outside of the impact area to the south and does go through this three miles -- three square mile area in two different spots. The existing city limits are presently a half-mile north of Amity Road. There are several pending applications that would bring that to Amity Road, thereby making this application -- or this project a quarter mile away. Without going into too much detail, there are -- well, you haven't approved those pending applications, obviously, so we can't presume that those will be approved at this point in time. We did just a quick analysis on the implications of releasing that area back to Ada County. Or I guess it's not really ours to release, but no longer have any -- within our referral area or trying to extend area of impact to include those three square miles. Based on some information I got from our finance director and some assumptions on density and home value out in that area, it looked like the annual property tax revenue lost would be a minimum of about a million dollars a year, all the way up to three and a half million dollars a year, depending on, of course, density and home value. The one thing that I do need to point out and make everyone very aware of, not just for this particular issue, but for many issues that are going to be coming your way is, is that the sewer capacity in the south is -- is getting chewed up very very very quickly. With the preliminary plats that Council has approved, there are - - I have got my numbers backwards. With the pending applications and the ones that you have approved, there are only about 300 units -- equivalent residential units of capacity left in that area. The pending applicant, since they do not have an approved total -- about 870 lots, so what has been approved with - only what's been approved by our -- about 1,100, maybe 1,200 units left out there. But, as you know, those are going pretty quickly in that area. I'm going to let the planning director offer a few comments at this point. Canning: President Wardle, Members of the Council, I'm sorry, it's just when we discussed this before, we've had a lot of discussions -- it seems like once a month they crop up about this whole area here and, in particular, in this area, the furthest extent of the sewer reach for this line and there seems to be some question as to whether we will ever get there -- that some of these properties would, really, seem to be able to develop easier in Boise city or Ada County, actually, than others. And, then, I did just want to point out some of the very odd parcelization that's gone on down here and we have seen in these kind of circumstances where it's very difficult to effectively develop and that's one of the reasons we felt that Council may want to consider whether they should be in the area of city impact or not. I mean if it was large 40 acre or 80 acre or 120-acre properties, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, but aside from the sewer constraints there, it's a parcelization pattern and that may not lend itself to real easy development of this area in the future. The fire district boundaries does go to Columbia, though, correct, Mr. Silva? It goes to Columbia? It goes to Lake Hazel. Which I was pointing at the right line, just called it the wrong thing. Sorry. So, the fire district Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 25 of 43 boundary does come down to Lake Hazel. So, if those were incorporated in the city of Boise, there is some potential that the fire district could lose some of their area. Those were the only additional comments I wanted to make. Watson: Mr. President, I think I was done with my presentation, but certainly be glad to answer questions. Wardle: Okay. Council, questions for Brad? Bird: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: Brad, I see United Water is willing to get a well out there. What's the county going to do as far as the sewer? Are they going to allow septic tanks or a community sewer like we have got at a couple locations here in the county or what? Watson: Mr. President, Councilman Bird, I believe -- my understanding is from the applicant that they will be doing a community wastewater system for the non-farm portion. I don't know what the ultimate proposal would be, other than Boise city bringing central services to it via a lift station. Bird: Thank you, Brad. Wardle: Brad, let me ask for a little clarification here. Are you asking the Council this evening to choose one of these four options? Is this for information? What would you like as an outcome? Watson: Mr. President, I think staff or Planning and Zoning and Public Works, we need some direction on what we are going to do out in this area. As Anna mentioned, we have had several discussions at your level and numerous ones at our level, on a property down here that is or was owned by Bradford and Camille Shaw. We have had this one here that is owned by the Calvary church, They have been in front of you and I have met with them numerous times. We have a golf course here that isn't going to redevelop in residential, so -- but we just -- we are getting these questions out here and we don't know what direction -- at least I don't know what direction to give them as far as temporary service, service some day, never -- I feel like we are at -- I hate to use that term, because it's getting over used these days, but the tipping point on this property out here. We either need to -- well, we can't serve it. We can't serve it with sewer. We just can't right now. I mean we probably could squeeze one -- well, another half mile into the capacity we have, but we can't until the Black Cat crosses the interstate. That gets back into that whole Ten Mile interchange transportation issue subject. So, yeah, I guess I would like some direction on one of these four options and, as I said, number four is probably not the one that really means anything. Bird: Mr. President? Meridian City Council May 17,2005 Page 26 of 43 Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: Brad, I want a recommendation -- I mean if we was to go ahead and get a well out there and let them put in some kind of a sewer system, do you want to inherit that sewer system, like you're going to on a couple others? Watson: Mr. President, Councilman Bird, as you recall, we went down this road with another project on Linder and Victory area and it turned into a long, long, long process of back and forth. I'm not saying we can't do it, we could -- we have a lot of skilled people that could run a system and if we were allowed to review plans, make sure it's built to our specifications, we can do that. But what that's doing is driving up the developer's cost to the point where I -- he's already got preliminary plat approval from Ada County and now he's got approval from United Water. The only thing that may be lacking -- and Mr. Wood is here if you'd like to question his approval on the community septic system -- or wastewater system. Bird: Does your -- what is your department's -- what's your feeling that your department would like to see happen here, given all the circumstances and the history? Watson: Councilmember Bird, issuing 300 building permits a month is probably not the best frame of mind for me to answer this in, but I'm not confident we can get sewer there anytime in the near future and operating a satellite system -- or we can do it, it's not another thing that we really want to be burdened with. We are busy enough. If you do one, I think there will be others that come in, follow right along. I don't want to do a subdivision where we provide the water and don't have the sewer necessarily. Bird: I agree with you a hundred percent and, on the same token, the developer isn't -- isn't going to go by your specifications on a sewer system if it's going to cost him "- if it's going to hurt his penciling out. You and I both know that. Wardle: Council, would you like to hear from Mr. Wood? Rountree: Sure. Bird: Sure. Wardle: Please. Wood: My name is Dan Wood. I live at 2025 East Chateau in Meridian here. Councilmember Bird, we do plan on interiorly, meaning the 44 lots, to develop that according to the City of Meridian's specifications. But the actual sewer system, the treatment capacity, we are doing a self-contained system, you know, that's -- that's been -- what, is under -- there is one being built out in Eagle right now. There is one out in Kuna right now. There are a number of other places. But, ultimately, it's treated right there on site and, ultimately, it's clean water and from there we are going to put it on the Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 27 of 43 ground that we have, with the plans that when the city did come, that, ultimately, that would have to be abandoned and homes up -- you know, the 44 homes we have, we would attach, then, or it would be attached. Of course, it creates more problems, then, too, you know, because those homeowners are -- who knows, they are not going to be real excited about it, but we also realize that, you know, that's going to be in the CC&Rs and we are going to disclose all that, that some day the City of Meridian will own this, but for now that doesn't mean when the city might get there and from what the dates were thrown around the other day, it could be as far out as 2010. And so who knows what it might be then, so -- but I want you to know that our plans were to do it the way the city has it done. JUB submitted the plans to DEQ. Be more than happy to have Brad or whoever take a look at them. I mean that's -- just to see if that is the case. So, like was mentioned before, you know, even though politically the city wasn't ready to go out in this part of town, you can see there is an application that I got notice on that's going to take, if approve, would front on Amity, which potentially puts it only a quarter mile away from -- which is only one property owner, so that - so, I hope that answered your question. Bird: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: Yeah. Dan, it does. And I realize that, but the thing -- you know, the thing that I don't want to see the city have to get into -- we have been very fortunate by putting some service out to a couple of subdivisions and, then, when they got contiguous, we brought them in and we didn't have one complaint. We never had one complaint, thank God. I don't want to get to the point of Boise. Yeah, you can put it in your CC&Rs, you can do whatever. Are you going to be the only real estate agent there? Okay. I mean we can be like out here at Crossroads, you know, those people -- there was a big sign that said commercial coming, but their realtors told them they wasn't going to be there. We had -- we had resident after resident in here testifying to that. And that's what happens. And, then, the City of Meridian looks like they are taking ground, you know, and you think these people are going to put in a sewer system now and, then, be real happy to pay our 6,000 dollars hookup fee or something? Wood: I understand. Bird: And that's something I think as a Council we have got to decide if we want to put to future -- because this is going to be a future Council. Now, Shaun might be young enough to be still on it, but -- Donnell: Are you offended Councilman Rountree? Rountree: No. I'm proud of it. Bird: I just feel that -- I don't know how -- I'm not sure I want to put us in that kind of a deal. And I know, Dan, that you would -- you know, what you say we can go to the bank Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 28 of 43 on, but you're not going to build every house and you're not going to sell every house out there. Wood: You can put it right in -- you know, the other subdivision that we did out -- that we got in the county, you know, we put it -- it's like the first item we put on your CC&Rs, but when the city of Boise annexes, there will be people that said we never knew, but, yet, it's right on the face of the plat and it's the first thing in our CC&Rs but -- and there will be confusion -- or there will be misstatements and to agents saying this or that, I won't disagree. I mean you just do the best you can and try and notice as much as you can, but, inevitably, you won't satisfy them and that's something that is -- you know, you keep trying to circle us to try and find a better way to do it, you know, so that we don't have that issue, and that's why I have been here a couple of times to say, hey, is there a way we can work it out and I have talked with staff a couple times, but the way the city's is I understand and so that's why have been going down that route and it just happens that this piece is so close to United Water and Boise that all of a sudden it's like, hey, if you're going to do a satellite well, maybe we ought to look at providing, you know, United Water right to them. Well, they are about just as far away as the City of Meridian is, so when, you know, United got the objection from the City of Meridian, it's like, okay, let's go talk to the City of Meridian. We always intended -- and it's not only me that's involved in this. There is partners involved and I just happen to be the only guinea pig that comes up here. But, you know, we have always intended it was going to be a Meridian subdivision. But, like you say, if it's -- you know, politically it sounds like it's going to be a ways out there with -- you know, and traffic's only getting worse in northwest Meridian and without that Ten Mile I can see it potentially being awhile, but sewer is going to be right to this ground here if capacity was there, so -- Bird: Okay. You answered my question. Wardle: Thank you. Watson: Mr. President? If I may, just to make one clarification to make sure we all understand. If you do consider this release from the referral area, what -- what I would take as direction is that be removed from our sewer master plan area and that we are not serving that ultimately with sewer. That means this will be generally to lower density Ada County stuff or the cluster stuff, because United Water, if they are going to come here, they come out just to do a little subdivision, they will take this whole three square mile area and, then, we get into the same situation that southwest Boise has and I don't look forward to that. Thank you. Wardle: Council, is the decision that you would like to discuss some more, make this evening, potentially bring back a recommendation? Rountree: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Meridian City Councii May 17. 2005 Page 29 of 43 Rountree: I guess I'd like to share some guidance from Mr. Nary in terms of this is in a referral area, I don't know -- I don't see anything -- official request to extend this area, but that's something that's being talked about. Is that something that needs to be brought up in a Public Hearing or can it just be an action from the Council? If we don't exclude the area, it sounds to me like approval has already been granted to subdivide and provide water and it's got a package point for the sewer. So, what is our say in this situation? Refresh my memory. It's been awhile. Nary: Thank you, Council President, Members of the Council, Councilmember Rountree. I don't think -- and Brad and Anna can correct me if I'm wrong -- I don't think you have to do any of these actions tonight. I think you're right, I mean the project's been approved to this point by the county. The issue was is how is the water going to get there and right now there is an issue -- I think the portion -- if I understand this correctly, that portion that is -- we discussed in this Black Rock, the one that's outlined in red on that picture, is wholly outside of our area. The original request by United Water came, actually, across Amity Road and up to this property, as well as the part that's yellow and green. So, right now this property is already -- or this development has already been approved as it is, so Mr. Wood just has to figure out how to get water there, whether the city is going to provide it through some cost share or something else or he's going to have to do a well or something -- something different. I guess my belief is what the staff is asking is that this is not the only piece of property, this just happens to be a larger one of those and is seeking direction from the Council as to how do we do this, do we continue this master planning toward this area all the way down to the southern boundary there at Columbia or do we basically stop the planning area at Locust Grove, because I think -- Locust Grove all the way down to Columbia allows these properties, basically, to be out of the referral area and if that's the decision of this Council, then, you direct the staff simply to begin that process of whatever we need to do to notify Ada County that we no longer consider that to be part of a referral area or our future growth area and off the top of my head right now I couldn't tell you specifically beyond just the letter of notification of the county if we need to do more than that. But I think that's -- that's the reason we are having this discussion is this area is -- I think, as Brad said a number of times, it comes up often to the staff as to what to do and this just happens to be part of the discussion today is how does this water get to this particular property. Currently United Water is eligible to serve it. It's more of where the area of impact touches us that we are trying to deal with. Now, did I get it wrong? Am I off track? Okay. I thought that's what -- that was the reason we are -- if you chose to do nothing now and think about it, nothing bad is going to happen. You can say I think it's just that we need to have this discussion at some point and put on -- if you're not -- if you don't feel comfortable making a decision tonight, I would simply suggest that you put it back on your agenda within two weeks -- or I guess it would be three weeks if you're not having a meeting in two weeks. Rountree: So, the only -- the thing I'm hearing, then, is that at this point, other than this particular subdivision being in the referral area, it's not in our impact area, unless we choose to extend the sewer and/or water into the referral area, it's a moot point. Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 pege 30 of 43 Nary: Councilman Rountree, that's correct. And the referral area is simply that, because it is a future planning area as well, they provide us with that option for input, but that was the key reason in the order from the PUC that they opted not to grant our request to deny it, that the only issue becomes is if we are ever going to grow in that direction, then, we need to have some direction about that. If the Council's desire is not to go in that direction and simply stop at Locust Grove, that's fine as well. Donnell: Mr. President? Wardle: Mrs. Donnell. Donnell: Brad, help me understand the map that's included with this packet. Everything that's there is future on this map? Watson: Mr. President, Council member Donnell, the brown lines are future sewer trunks and are included in our sewer master plan. Donnell: Where is our current sewer? How far does it -- where is it? Off the map, obviously. Watson: No. It's -- if I can point at the screen. It exists to this point on the southern boundary of Tuscany Lakes Subdivision. Donnell: All right. On Locust Grove? Watson: Just off of Locust Grove. Donnell: Okay. Bird: And the other one isn't at all. Donnell: All right. And, Mr. President, follow up? Wardle: Mrs. Donnell. Donnell: I really would like some time to about this. Being one of those people who likes to control the world, I don't think that -- that I like the idea of giving up any kind of control in this part of the world and I understand statrs concern about being able to provide services and what kind of impact that is on them, but -- so I would like to suggest that we do give some thought to this and bring this back in a couple of weeks for possibly a decision at that point. Bird: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 31 of 43 Bird: I need one more question out of Brad. Brad, if f remember right, this is JUB's -- off of their sewer deal, wasn't it, that we had done? Watson: Councilmember Bird, that is correct. Bird: And if I remember right, every line they drew was gravity flow and no lift stations; right? Watson: Yes. Bird: Okay. So, this was all gravity flow? Watson: Yes. Bird: I think that makes -- Donnell: And would continue to be? I mean that's all the way to that furthest point is all gravity flow? Watson: All the way to the upper end is gravity flow. Bird: All gravity flow. Donnell: And so, Mr. President, if I might? Wardle: Mrs. Donnell. You bet. Donnell: Then, as -- if I understood what you were saying here, Brad, then, if Boise were to provide sewer services, they would have to put a lift station in; is that right? Wardle: I do not intimately know the master plan, but I believe they would have to pump over into their Cloverdale trunk once it's in this area. Donnell: So, they are coming in an opposite direction? Bird: Same thing they did at Centennial and Bristol Heights and all them. Thanks to our school district. Canning: Mr. President, one quick comment if I might. It occurs to me that there is one basic assumption that staff made that we haven't made clear to you all, so I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that and that is the assumption that if United Water includes this in their service area, that that is something that the city does not want to, eventually, annex -- to have them actually in the city limits. So, that's why this issue is coming to you now, is because it's -- if you don't want United Water in the eventual city limits, then, we need to make other arrangements to get water to Mr. Wood. So, that was the sense of urgency that had not -- I mean it's not urgent urgent, but he needs to Meridian City Council May 17, 2005 Page 32 of 43 know fairly quickly, so that we don't allow United Water to go into what will eventually be the city limits. Bird: Mr. President, can I ask a legal question? Clear this up. I think I know the answer, but if -- if and when we annex that, having our own water system, if United Water is in there, they still get to stay there, don't they? Nary: Mr. Bird, yes, they still get to stay there and I appreciate Mrs. Canning pointing that out. I think that's the only urgency that you have, is that right now United Water has authority to go serve the Black Rock development. If you don't want that, then, we'd have to provide it in some fashion in some reasonable time for Mr. Wood, otherwise, he can ask that United Water do it. So, that is the one urgency, I guess, that I wanted to make clear, that I don't think Mr. Wood wants you to take too long to make that decision on what you'd like to do. Wardle: Mr. Watson, I will just offer my quick opinion for you and if any of the Council would like to add theirs -- I think we need to have this discussion about the area. I'm not prepared to make the decision tonight about whether at anytime in the future we should annex the property or not. Certainly I think that we are not going to be able to serve -- the very very far corner if we are not going to be able to serve that with sewer, even in the future, then, we need to potentially look at removing that from the referral area. As far as water service, I know that the city's had a history in the past of holding along our water system. It appears that United Water is available to serve this piece and while certainly that's not to mean that we like to as a common sewer thing within the city, at this point in time I don't think that the City of Meridian is prepared to make other arrangements for water and so we can -- I hate to say put that on another Council, but it doesn't appear to me that we have a choice. We will have the choice whether to annex the property when we become contiguous and that will be, really, the choice that we will make. Does that spark anything in -- Bird: Mr. President, I just have -- you know, I have a -- I'm like Councilwoman Donnell, I don't like to give up any area, but I also understand developers have to have something. And I absolutely do not want United Water coming in our territory. We -- I have a feeling that we have a problem at one location now that's going to surface. So, I see where Brad says that it's about 8,400 lineal feet to get our water down there, whether that's the right way to go, but I'm with you, Mr. President, I think it needs to come back -- what would it be, June 7th - and give Mr. Wood an answer, because he certainly deserves one, and I would be prepared to do that. Wardle. Okay. June 7th. Do the rest of the Council -- let me clarify that, Mr. Bird. On the issue of Meridian providing water service to this specific development, we would answer that question on the 7th? Bird: I would expect that we should -- you know, that should be part of our answer is that, and Mr. Wood's taking care of the sewer, so -- Meridian City Councii May 17, 2005 Page 33 of 43 Wardle: And I believe that's already it the process and still have some approval time. Okay. Bird: Because, you know, I'm to the point that if we can't keep the water and sewer, I don't want our -- I don't want our people being billed by another water company. Wardle: Okay. Donnell: And, Mr. President, just to follow up. Wardle: Okay. Donnell: I think, if I heard what Brad said -- and perhaps, Anna, you as well, is that staff really would like to know -- to have some direction as well, not just on the water issue, but on other issues that come forward in that area; is that right? So, you really want us to think about more than just whether or not we should provide water or not? Don't make us think too hard now. Canning: President Wardle, Councilwoman Donnell, one of the -- clearly the United Water issue is the only urgent issue. The other issues can certainly wait for some time. And one of the enhancements I have requested is to study all of the south county areas, so I think that that issue may come up. It's certainly one that needs to be addressed within the next couple of years at the latest, so -- Donnell: The next couple of years at the latest? Wardle: Thank you. Then, Council, if you would agree, I would ask Brad to bring back June 7 a -- as a department report either a positive or negative answer as to the water service for Black Rock Subdivision. Okay. Rountree: Mr. President? Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I would like to have staff provide us some -- just bullet points, the pros and cons in this particular area as it relates to its potential for the City of Meridian. I hear the folks that want to control it not wanting to lose control, but I don't know necessarily fall on that particular venue, so I think there is probably some advantages to not possibly having it as part of Meridian as well, so -- other than the sewerability, which, you know, if it all gravity feeds, that's certainly the most economical thing to do for us and/or the developers in the future, but are there some other issues as it relates to other infrastructure, as well as just the community itself that are advantages or disadvantages and it's not a homework assignment, but if you'd provide some of your thoughts it would be helpful before the 7th. Meridian City Council MaY 17. 2005 Page 34 of 43 Wardle: Mr. Rountree, just to clarify one of the issues, you mentioned that -- to have it not in the City of Meridian. One of the things that I have heard is, really, the decision is -- is whether to -- is the water issue and -- which certainly doesn't preclude annexation in the future. Rountree: No. Wardle: But would, obviously, have a different water provider. Great. Does that provide us enough direction, Brad? Watson: Yes. Thank you. Item 19: Department Reports: C. Legal Department - Bill Nary 1. Proposed Policy Changes: a. Bereavement Leave: b. Education Reimbursement: c. Introductory Period of Employment: d. Compensation Program: e. Clothing Attire and Allowance: f. Military Leave: Director Benefits Program: g. h. Trial Service Period for Promotions or Transfers: Wardle: Thank you very much. Item No. 19 has been moved from Item 6-C. Legal Department, proposed policy changes. Mr. Nary. Nary: Thank you. I thought I'd get out of the chair, since I always sit over there. A few weeks ago I brought a bunch of ordinances that we had been working on and this week we have a bunch of policies, so I don't want you to think I was just sitting around drinking coffee like most lawyers do. Most of these policy changes have been directed by you, some of them haven't, so I want to explain those. Some of them have come up in application and the way our policy manual is worded, if there is an issue of interpretation, it's my decision on to how to interpret the policy. What we have done is try to make sure the policy makes sense and if we need to clean it up to make it clearer in the future -- most of them are fairly simple. The first one I will just be brief and stop