HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004 11-16 Joint ACHDMeridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting November 16, 2004
The Meridian City Council and ACHD Commission Joint Meeting I Workshop was
called to order at 5:30 P.M. on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 by Mayor Tammy
de Weerd and ACHD Commission President John Franden
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle,
Christine Donnell, Charlie Rountree.
Others Present: Will Berg
ACHD Commission Members Present: John Franden, David Wynkoop, Dave
Bivens, Sherry Hubert and Susan Eastlake
Item 1. Roll -call Attendance:
X Christine Donnell X Keith Bird
X Shaun Wardle X Charlie Rountree
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: I will just make note for the record that Councilman Bird,
Councilmember Donnell, Councilman Wardle and Councilman Rountree are all
present as well as Mayor De Weerd. Do you need to open it for your record?
Wynkoop: I will just note for your record since you do a transcript that we have
here myself as 15t Vice President and Commissioner Bivens and Commissioner
Hubert and I presume that Commissioner Franden will be here momentarily.
Here he is, just walked in. So we are all present and accounted for.
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
De Weerd: The first item is to adopt the agenda, thafs just a technicality.
Bird: So moved.
Wardle: Second.
De Weerd: All in favor say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Item 3. Discussion of the North Meridian Area Plan:
De Weerd: I will ask Anna to give us an overview.
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November 16, 2004
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Canning: Madame Mayor, members of the Council and Commissioners. As staff
we did meet to discuss the (inaudible) conditions for the North Meridian Area
Plan and to kind of brainstorm on possible solutions. I think (inaudible -----------)
in your package and I have got up here (inaudible ---------- Basically, the
decision was that —
De Weerd: Anna? I am sorry, but if you could come and stand —
Canning: No problem.
De Weerd: If you would like you can sit here.
Canning: I am situated. Would you like me to start over?
De Weerd: Yes.
Canning: The staff did meet. It was Gary Inselman, Bruce, (inaudible) and Brad
and I and I forget who from my staff was there. That's pretty bad, huh? We met
to brainstorm on what possible solutions we could have and what to do with the
open (inaudible) condition from the North Meridian Area Plan and out of that we
decided a couple of key things. The one would be to acknowledge that really the
improvements would need to be done through the capital improvement plan and
they explain that that update will begin in about a year and that ACHD will be
looking for better demographic numbers for Meridian and North Meridian in
particular and make that a priority to really evaluate those demographics
pertaining to that area. Then also for intersections would receive higher priority
and the new capital improvements plan that they would be separated from the
roadway improvements as separate items and that would allow for your staff
(inaudible---------) this is my limited understanding is that because we are adding
the intersection improvement as part of the capital improvement plan that puts off
the need for as much road -wide need and so, therefore, there is a savings on the
amount of roadway, right of way that you have to purchase and that also can go
more toward the intersection improvements as well. So, I think it is kind of a
double benefit by adding these intersections, as I understand it. Then they also
ask that sidewalks — they will be looking to change the policy manual, I believe,
that require that the sidewalks be in easements, not in the right of way. We
require detached sidewalks so most of the time they are in easements and that
would allow ACHD to not have to purchase as much right of way because the
sidewalks would be an existing landscape buffer easements, which we have
three generous landscape buffers in the first place so that they could be
accommodated within those buffers. So, that's on the ACHD side. On the
planning staff side or the City of Meridian staff side, we asked for a couple of
things. That was during the development (inaudible) through ACHD, we were
hoping that we could get kind of an indication of the intersections that were
impacted by the development and how those intersection, how they rated in with
just within the City of Meridian CIP, so you have got on your CIP — you have got
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November 16, 2004
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in your plan a number of intersections, one through one hundred for the whole
county and maybe there is thirty of them that are for Meridian. Well, if the
development application came through and the intersection was ranked 30
overall, but it was our highest number, then if your staff could let us know that
information — you know, that this is the most important intersection for the City of
Meridian and these are identified in that as well as identified where it warrants
then I think that means whether it warrants a (inaudible). So, your staff felt that
they could provide us that information and then that would help the City Council
understand what options may be available for working with the developer to get
some of those improvements done maybe before hand. We understand that you
all can't require those intersection improvements necessarily at their — depending
on the timing, but they could be discussed as part of a request for annexation by
the City of Meridian, so if we just had that information it would be a powerful tool
for the city to use. I think that was it on the North Meridian Area Plan. Yeah, that
was it.
De Weerd: Now Anna we did have this discussion at Council last week and staff
was asked to look into a couple of things further.
Canning: Yes, the primary one was the open-ended commission for the North
Meridian Area Plan and Bill Nary has done that research and I think I will let him
discuss that. Do you have that email from Brad? I don't have it.
Nary: I didn't bring that with me. I am sorry. Madame Mayor, members of the
Council and members of the Commission what the Council asked me to look at
was on that condition that took place in the development agreement over the last
couple of years and the effectiveness of that tool and being able to use it as
enforcement. Probably from a legal standpoint, it's written pretty broadly and the
reason was that I think some of the Council members and some of the
Commissioners will recall is that we really didn't know what we were getting into.
At the time, we were in the development stages of the North Meridian Plan, we
had a fairly large (inaudible) group with it and all we were intending was to create
at least a mechanism to bring people to the table to have discussions about the
exact same things that we have been able to successfully get them to do and
being able to get better roadway improvements, get better right of way, get better
access, all of the things that that's what it was intended to do. Could we use it as
an enforcement mechanism now? It appears that I think policy wise that the
Highway District has taken some steps in how they're approaching in both the
capital improvement plan and the, I guess, policies and choices that you folks
have made and really the mechanism that really drives that condition. Again, it's
pretty broad, but really it gives the city a hammer to enforce development to the
table to have conversations with you folks and I think that's already happening
and has happened over the last couple of years and so whether or not it's a
continuing necessity to have those in future developments, it probably isn't,
unless we had specificity of what exactly we want or you want, again, it's written
so broadly, but there was a reason for that. At the time, we had a group that sort
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November 16, 2004
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of has dissolved and now we are looking at other things, like the blueprint for
growth or we are looking for other ways to attack those same concerns and
issues and so I think we are getting there, but legally and whether or not we want
to use that as a real enforcement tool, it's probably not the most effective way to
win anything, it's just on that conditional loan because there is not a lot of
specificity to it that I could take to a developer and say see this tells you you
need to do something. All it does is it tells you you need to talk to the people that
are involved and that's really what the direction gives, so my recommendation
would be not to use that as the basis of anything other than what we have been,
which is to get some dialogue going, to get some cooperation and I think we
have been able to do that and I think the Highway District has as well for the
same reason, but as an enforcement tool it's probably not the most effective way
to do it.
De Weerd: I guess my question for (inaudible) is then we need to drop them out
of those findings or look and see if we can bring the original developers to the
table to say can we get these intersections improved even though they are not on
the CIP at this time.
Nary: Madame Mayor, members of the Council certainly that is your option. I
mean they are existing in the development agreements now —
De Weerd: And then (inaudible) is the North Meridian Area Plan
recommendation.
Nary: Right. I think if you would get them you would have some more specifics
or you have, especially with the larger developments along the North Meridian
Area, it's probably a good tool for that dialogue to happen. It's not a real good
tool to go to court and make it happen in that regard, it's more of a way to get
that cooperation and to the table.
De Weerd: So, would ACHD be willing to at least give this one last try by getting
all the people to the table and see if we can get any solution like intersection
improvements via — I don't know a special assessment or something.
Speaker?: Who would be the group canal, you know the original meetings were
one set of people? Are those — I know some of them would likely still be there,
but they had their own set of motives that you know may have changed over
time, so do we have an idea of a possible group of who you would bring to the
table? Would it be anybody that's gone through on that development that has
the (inaudible)?
De Weerd: I would think that it would be the developers who have that open
ended finding in their development agreements and the larger ones. The Bridge
Towers, the Paramount, the Lochsa, the Cedar Springs and those developers
J ust to find out — the condition doesn't do a whole lot of good for their
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November 16, 2004
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developments either and when we originally were talking about it, it was also a
marketing tool for them not looking at necessarily widening the roads at that time,
but trying to find ways that we could have some improvements done. They
talked about improvements, not having to do curb, gutters sidewalk, having
detached — you know they could at least do some road improvements to widen it
with turn lanes and stuff, but without all the final touches that are required almost
in every instance and then also looking at intersection improvements that would
facilitate moving traffic. I think that's where we start. John?
Franden: (Inaudible---------) as something you wanted to share with us here.
De Weerd: If you could come over here so we could get you in record.
Speaker?: Mr. President, Madame Mayor I would suggest that if we were to
invite a group of landowners or developers to the table, since we are talking an
extraordinary impact fee for a normally district that's assessed over an area and
not to a specific development. We should invite all of the landowners in the
designated area and developers and see who comes and discussion (inaudible)
and then (inaudible).
De Weerd: That would be most appropriate. Thank you.
Speaker: Madame Mayor what keeps going through my head and Bill can
probably help us here, but it's offsite improvements that what we are really
talking about in these intersections are offsite improvements, which we just can't
do.
Hubert: But the city is going to require them.
De Weerd: That's our — it's our finding in the development agreement and it
seemed like when we started this process several years ago. There was interest
from the development community in looking at that. I don't know what that
interest is now, the interest was driven, yes, then by the possibility that they
wouldn't get their developments approved, but now that traffic does exist out
there, they might have still motivation in helping improve the circulation of that.
It's always worth a try.
Franden: Absolutely. The other thing that has been running through my mind is
we are looking at the expiration of the vehicle registration fee in a few years and I
thought is that our intersections something that when we go out for the renewal
of that because I know Commissioner Hubert and others say that you know if we
improve these intersections that we can move traffic. It's almost beneficial in
widening the road in some instances. Just as an idea. Just to throw in that
thought out.
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November 16, 2004
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Bird: Madame Mayor when is registration? Because you the State of Idaho is
one of the most reasonable vehicle registration states there is. I mean, we are,
in fact ridiculous compared to our neighboring states.
Franden: Keith, if I am not incorrect, I think Ada County is the only county that
has that.
Bird: I think that is right.
De Weerd: Are there any other comments?
Hubert: Yes, if a go ahead and have some kind of group meeting, I would
suggest based on and Dave was. there too at a lot of the meetings that before we
even contact people really get our eggs lined up because if we go in there and
we do the same song and dance then they are going to feel like it's a waste of
their time, so it seems to me that we need to sit down maybe first, ourselves and
brainstorm and see if there is a gimme that we can come up with that they are
going to get something if they are willing to do it and that's always the hard part,
but I think it'll fail again if we don't, in my view, if we don't come up with
something.
Rountree: Madame Mayor. I am still struggling with what's our expectation of
getting together. I mean we really expect the development community to step up
to the plate and say we want to do this or we want a partner to do this and make
it happen.
De Weerd: I don't know. I guess I have always been of the opinion that unless
you ask you never know and I don't have a problem asking, but I do agree that
we need to have a plan. And even if it's just a couple of key intersections and we
have been working with staff on identifying those key intersections. If we could
show how those improvements would benefit the whole area and with the cost
and with the lodge remaining what that would mean in terms of an impact fee if
that's the road we are going down and then they have information and say yeah
we would be willing to talk about it or not.
Donnell: Because everybody that has to come to the meeting (inaudible) and
pay money.
Rountree: That was the point I was going to make. Do we really need to have a
meeting to find that out? Could we put (inaudible ----) another way? Just phone
up for folks and say are you going to warm to this concept? Because it's in your
development agreement.
De Weerd: And I would be willing to make those phone calls. I guess I would
ask that our staffs would get together and talk about how minimally best we can
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
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accommodate the traffic in the North Meridian Area and put a price tag to it and I
can make some phone calls. Because we are not basking.
Bird: One point I was going to bring up was that most of the developers that
developed out there were the ones that put the money up to do this North
Meridian study. I am like Charlie, I mean, we need to have a plan as ACHD and
City of Meridian, but getting the — I think you can make some phone calls. They
have planned on having to do this and then we fell on our face. So, I don't think
it's unreasonable. I am like Tammy I am afraid to ask because it's basically the
same players out there that did the original North Meridian plan.
De Weerd: Commissioner Bivens.
Bivens: Mayor case and point, the one that I think we identify is the top priority
for intersection improvement — this is Linder and Ustick and according to the map
over here, that is unincorporated at least as it shows on the map it's not annexed
into the city and maybe that might be worth taking time to (inaudible) that.
Bird: The northwest corner — that's that one that had —
Bivens: According to the map, all them corners are —
Bird: I know the other three are (inaudible -------- ).
Bivens: Anyway, that would be helpful to make sure that we do have that and
(inaudible ---------- ). We have moved it up, but not fast enough as far as I am
concerned.
De Weerd: Any other comments? I guess I would ask that our staff set up a
meeting together and talk about how best we can prioritize the intersection
improvements and make it minimal and see what price tag we put to it and I can
just start making some phone calls. Maybe at one of our Pre -Councils or one of
your pre -meetings staff can present it, get any further comments before I start
making phone calls.
Donnell: I don't know if this will help. Remember the idea that a lease was —
came out that in some cities that are moving drainage and (inaudible) got to do it
in the watering and so I don't know if we would have enough time to check into
that, if there would be even an advantage to a developer. If we had that option,
that would be more cost effective; meaning, that if we can give them a new idea
that we think is cost effective that's kind of an exchange and it's not likely they
are going to be able to get all their subdivision (inaudible). Is there something
that we can come up with like that? And maybe we have to (inaudible ----------- ).
(Inaudible discussion)
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November 16, 2004
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De Weerd: Well, I think what staff did come up with in their discussions and
preserving right away and along the detached sidewalks and easements where
there have been right of ways and looking for future (inaudible) needs and it's an
excellent way and our staff can really work with that. So, those are the kind of
things that if our staffs can work together and we know what we can be looking
out for, we certainly ought to do that because it benefits us in the long run in
terms of making it easier to get these things done. So, encourage creativity and
innovation and Meridian just says yeah.
Wardle: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Councilman Wardle.
Wardle: I guess I am unclear as to what we are going to be asking the
development community. What I understand intersection improvement and then
I have heard that you may not need to widen the roadway. Does that mean that
on some of these roadways, for example Linder and Ustick a short-term solution
might be not to go to two travel lanes, a tum lane and a right turn lane, but
maybe to make two travel lanes as well as just a center turn lane? Are those
kind of the things we are talking about or are we talking about planning for the
future to make the entire roadway happen?
De Weerd: I think probably both, Shaun. The first item that Anna had talked
about was to look at future road needs and start preserving the corridors and not
asking them to dedicate it, but setting it aside that we would require that the curb,
gutter and sidewalk would be required, but the sidewalk could be detached and
put in an easement rather than the right of way so that the future growth
requirement could be done at a later date.
Wardle: But these offsite developments that we are talking about, floating the
idea of an additional impact fee of some sort. What would that be going to?
Would that be going to purchase the right of way or would that be going to
signalization of the intersections?
De Weerd: I guess Shaun in my opinion that would be going to getting those
intersection improvements in now rather than later.
Wardle: Okay. That was one of my comments is if we are going to take
something to the development community they are going to want to know as part
of our plan, they are going to want to know what it's going to be that is going to
be accomplished and when. I think those are things that we need to answer
before, at least in theory before we get (inaudible).
De Weerd: That's true. Bruce, did you have a comment?
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November 16, 2004
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Mills: Yes, Madame Mayor, Commissioners, Council members. I just wanted to
clarify on the intersections. Basically, you can signalize the intersections and get
all the turn lanes associated with that intersection and typically you can delay and
widen the road from whatever direction from that intersection for several year.
You still eventually are going to have to put in additional lanes, but it can buy you
quite a bit of time.
Wardle: Just a follow up question. We are looking at a four-way intersection with
two travel lanes, eight travel lanes in a circle. Are you just talking about adding a
center turn lane or also a right hand turn lane?
Mills: Wouldn't have to actually be analyzed, but it would basically no doubt be
adding a left tum lane, probably at all four assuming they had (inaudible---)
graphic at all four lanes in the intersection and whether or not it needed
additional right turn lanes would have to be looked at. That would at least have
some capacity. If you just went out there and put a signal out there without
adding tum lanes, you really are not adding a lot of capacity. You need to get
additional lanes. The money, if we did look at the scenario would have to go
towards purchasing the right of way to widen out that along with the signal
(inaudible) or additional lanes.
Speaker?: Madame Mayor. I guess my thought and I struggled with this
(inaudible) with staff, but to me the bottom line makes good sense. You plan
what your future needs are going to be and build the intersection to
accommodate that and do it when you are in the process rather than kind of
Mickey Mousing that thing along and putting band aids on it. To me it makes a
lot more sense. You get all the wiring and all the conduit and all the electrical
service that it needs to come to those intersections where they put in the signals.
To me you just want to do it right while you are doing it and have it fixed for the
future.
De Weerd: Okay, I am not going to be formal.
Wynkoop?: Maybe I can bring this to a conclusion here. I appreciate your
philosophy because there is a diverse that says ask and you shall receive, you
do not receive because you have not asked and so to follow that philosophy, I
think it's worth asking one more time. That said, now let me put on my --
economics was my course of study at college so let me put on that hat for a
second. In my opinion, we put together this North Meridian Planning effort and at
that point it was in the interest of the developers involved to come up with kind of
a vague feel good statement, so that they could get underway with (inaudible -----
----) process because I think they knew that based upon the Washington Group
Study that we had done, that there would be some heartburn if they didn't at least
offer some olive branches and I thought that that was an excellent start. In the
end I think we at ACHD were disappointed with the outcome because as we
feared at the beginning did not have any tangible help or solutions for us. So,
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November 16, 2004
Page 10 of 19
then we went to the general statement that we put into the plat approvals by the
city that anything that is a result or outcome of the North Meridian Planning Area
group would then be incorporated into the development agreement and so that
was great for quite a while. Now, I think what we have is we have a situation
where some of these 1,200 lot subdivisions are 50, 60, 75 percent built out. So,
now where we are is that's actually worked out pretty well for a lot of that
development community because it was kind of a feel good thing, but it didn't
cost them anything more out of pocket. So, I agree that now we are in a situation
where we have to put our thoughts back together one more time and say is there
something that we can offer in the self interest in the economic interest of a
developer to give them an incentive to do x, y and z. If we could even acquire
the right of way for those future build out intersections that would be a huge help.
Eastlake: Yeah, we might be able to build them faster.
Wynkoop: Much less getting some help towards the possible future construction,
but even acquiring the right of way would be a tremendous help. Now where we
are is with a lot of these being fairly well built out, I would expect that the
developers understand full well that that's probably an unenforceable condition. I
think it's worth one more try to go back to them and say okay what are you guys
really willing to do? Are you willing to help us out on it? You understand the
problem. We have never come up with a specific solution, but is there something
out there? I think if staff could give some thought, is there something we could
offer as an incentive? I think that's great. Staff has given this a great deal of
thought and they are probably going, oh man, one more meeting. But, I think it's
worth one more shot at it and if we don't get anything out of this ever, I think we
just say well it was worth a try and the real solution at least for us does become
impact fees in getting projects adequately into the impact fee capital
improvement plan. Now, 1 think there has been some tremendous things come
out of the North Meridian for land use planning site, so I think it has been a real
win in that situation. I am just skeptical about whether it's really ended up being
a help on the transportation side, but I agree with the Mayor if you don't ask, you
don't receive, therefore, it's worth one more try.
Rountree: To that point, Dave, I have been on the receiving end of that kind of
direction from the board of staff and (inaudible) staff is sitting right now saying,
well that's great, but are willing to commit that if the developers say okay, we will
give you the right of way, are you then going to install the signals? That's the
other half of the equation. It's got to work both ways.
Hubert: If they do that, I think as a commission, we have to have a serious
conversation because everybody here knows other commissions and my feelings
and if we get right of way (inaudible), we have to fund intersections at a higher
percentage of our budget to work out.
Wynkoop: At least within a projected build out period of time.
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November 16, 2004
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Rountree: You have to make a commitment, we have to commit.
Bird: But, you know the nice thing out on the Meridian plan, I was just sitting
here thinking that most of the comers are not platted out yet. I mean they might
be platted, but they are not worked on. The only one I can think of is Bridgetower
across the street. They got that. So, if we are going to do it, we can't wait until
next year. We have got to jump in and get it done now before that gets platted
and all the plans get it gone and get that ground. I am like Charlie, if we commit
to the staff, we better commit to it. You know, we can't have them running
around doing this and us sitting back here hem hawing around.
De Weerd: Well, I am like all of you. Let's do something and staff when you
have the meeting, if I could be invited, I will attend so I can better relay the
conversation to the development community and being able to go through the
thought process and it would be helpful. So, I will commit to meeting whenever
you guys —
Franden: Tammy, who is going to take the lead? Could Anna take the lead of
setting up the meeting or — we just say somebody do it, it may not get done.
De Weerd: Okay. Anna, would you please take the lead on this?
Canning: I can. I would like for ACHD staff if they could maybe meet to
brainstorm on some of the ideas before we all get together, I think that would be
helpful.
De Weerd: Okay.
(Inaudible discussion).
De Weerd: And if we could plan in getting together after Thanksgiving, that
following week, would that work? Sherry?
Hubert: Because if you can identify what you were asking earlier (inaudible) are
the top ten for Meridian and if you can approach those developers and we can
look at our schedule and say well they are not even in the CIP, so that means
they really get (inaudible). Give a rough estimate of the dollars if they donated
the land to build out because it's what we were talking about is if we can
demonstrate to them that we have that commitment, the value increase in that
land as comer parcels, is dramatic for them. So, that would be a huge incentive
if we can put it all together for them to donate. It would really be truly a win, win
because we would get the intersection, hopefully sooner and they would get a
value added piece of property that they wouldn't get for 10 or 15 years. I mean, if
you can — I think you almost have to prioritize as best you can the intersections,
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November 16, 2004
Page 12 of 19
really kind of look at a rough cost analysis so we know, the commissioners know
the dollars that would have to be committed.
De Weerd: Now is there a mechanism that if we went ahead if we got some of
it donated that they have even a late comer's option if a group of developers
decided hey we will just go ahead and help with this that — or future impact fees
could help pay it back or—
Franden: If they are on arterials. If the intersections are arterials, then we can
use impact fees.
Bivens: And in the CIP.
Hubert: And in the CIP and see that's the catch.
Rountree: Not and/or?
Hubert: Both. Has to be both.
Bivens: A good example of that is Eagle Road and Overland. The work that's
being done there is paid by the developer and will be repaid out of impact fees in
the future.
(Inaudible discussion).
De Weerd: Does staff have enough information to move forward on? Okay,
thank you. We will go ahead, if there is anything — we will go ahead and move
onto storm water drainage. And I do want to thank Gary for the email. That was
very helpful. We appreciate that.
Item 4. Discussion of Storm Water Retention Ponds — Maintenance
and Landscape Issues:
De Weerd: Who wants to take the lead on this?
Canning: Madame Mayor, members of the Council and Commissioners the staff
also talked about storm water drainage and I am just going to give you an update
on kind of where staff went and then when I presented that to Council the
questions they had and I believe that Mr. Brown has a response to the questions
that Council had. I will start off with this staffs meetings and we came up with
kind of two basic things. One was that we needed some sort of understanding
and I put MOU up there. I don't know if that's technically the right document, but
just some understanding as to what plan design requirements would be and
those were that we would ask for the full street width buffer and the one tree per
35 feet which is standard for that. Then some sort of low maintenance ground
cover and internally it would have to be vegetated. I think that your staff has
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 13 of 19
been really proposed (inaudible) which sometimes they are a weed problem but
we understand that it does need to be low maintenance and I think we can
accommodate that. One tree per 8,000 square feet within the interior area and
those can be clustered; you don't have to place them all scattered throughout.
And to also meet our storm water drainage pond standards, which is slopes less
than (inaudible) and there are some other standards in there about the use of
rock and things like that. Now, if it were able to be designed that way and we
understand that some of them are not, but if it were able to be designed that way
then we wouldn't require what we call a land use buffer, but we would just treat it
like open space and it wouldn't have a land use buffer. Now if it's unable to meet
the (inaudible) then what we have (inaudible — -------- ) is that it's more like an
industrial use and therefore, the landscape buffer or the land use buffer is
required and then we would ask that you meet the landscaping requirements for
a land use buffers. Then once we have it planned and then agreement on the
plans then we could go forward with an agreement on the maintenance and the
City would agree on low maintenance plan and the Parks Department would
maintain that with the support of City Council at budget time. The Parks Director
wanted to make that clear. We presented this to Council. I think Council
member Rountree had a question about what the agreements were for other
draining basins within Ada County and who agreed to maintain those and the
general assessment of (inaudible) and I think that's what Mr. Brown has. There
was the general comment that — well, I will let Council member Rountree raise
that one if he wants to.
Rountree: I was kind of grumpy that night.
Hubert: Yeah, before Mr. Brown starts I just kind of want to throw one thing out
for the next. I don't know exactly where we are on this with the vegetation and
the trees, but I would like to offer a historical prospective of an unnamed city who
really wanted landscaping and boy did (inaudible —-------------- ). Then the next
thing, I go driving down there and the trees are dying and the bushes are dying.
So we spent a lot of money and then they found out that they didn't have in their
budget to maintain it. So, in any — if we get to a point of an agreement, it seems
fair that if we agree to put in trees or whatever and they die from lack of
maintenance then it seems to me we should be reimbursed that money. Really,
this is just based on — and it's a city I love dearly, but we spent a lot of money
and they died because they didn't maintain them.
Franden: I am little confused. Are we talking about collectors, arterials or local
roads?
Canning: Well, I think most of your basins are —
(Inaudible discussion)
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 14 of 19
Brown: Madame Mayor, Council and Commissioners. I am Kent Brown and
manager of engineering. The Highway District and in response to some
questions that were asked I did prepare this memo and I brought some extra
copies. How many people brought their memo? A couple things about, first of all
— which ones are they addressing? They are addressing in accordance with
Meridian's ordinance with regard to this, those so-called gateway kind of streets
and so far and this addresses the issue about what we are going to do. We
already have two ponds that fall under this category and one of them as we
speak has been landscaped and that's the one on Franklin and Locust Grove
and we just last week completed the landscaping of that. That includes
(inaudible), the irrigation system and the trees and the dry land grass has been
seeded in it. The one that has not, but is under design and that's one of the
things for Anna's information my understanding is that we are going to have to
look at (inaudible) on the one that's on Overland and Meridian. Some of these —
the width of the buffer, there may .wind up having to be some kind of a variance
to meet all of this, (inaudible) the reason for that is because that pond is already
been dug. In other words, where it is located relative to the where the street is,
it's already been decided and that much can't be changed and so that is a
comment. So, that is where we are right now; we are right now talking about a
pond that's already been landscaped and which the contractor for that portion of
the contract would be turning that over to us within, well within the next three or
four weeks, okay? But, obviously we are in that time of the year where it won't
require right now, but come next spring it will require some maintenance and so,
that's where we are time -wise. Now, let's talk about the issue of payment and
how —
De Weerd: Before you go on — did you have something that you wanted to add?
Speaker?: Now, I have got some comments that I would like to make, but —
Brown: Regarding the cost and that's what this was to address and I went
through and we prepared a list of those places and (inaudible) and other entities
within Ada County where at their request we did extra landscaping and
landscaping on a normal drainage ponds is dry land grasses and that is what we
do. As you can see in every instance where we went along in a project in which
we went to greater extent on landscaping, we had an agreement either with the
city or in a couple of instances property owners who were represented by the
homeowners and the most prominent one is up on 15th Street, but in every one of
those instances we had an agreement as you can see where they were
responsible for the maintenance and taking care of the landscaping, I must
emphasize the Highway District (inaudible) keeps the responsibility for mucking
out the pond. At some point when you have a pond, it's going to have a lot of
sediment get into it; the cities or those entities are not expected to do that. The
(inaudible) takes care of that with maintenance crews, but the cities or the entity
that has agreed to take care of the landscaping has with one exception, we have
paid for installation of the irrigation system, the installation of the trees or shrubs
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 15 of 19
or whatever that you have in the landscaping like that and then the entity has
paid for the water, the maintenance of the irrigation and the maintenance of the
trees. There have been a couple of different instances that are noted in there.
One of them is in the case of Eagle. The project in Eagle and that particular case
they actually stepped up and paid for a portion of the landscaping and a portion
of the bill for putting in the irrigation system. So, they went a little bit beyond
what Boise has done and in the other instance was Star and there was a desire
on Star's part to have at least one of the two ponds out there irrigated and to
have them landscape, but they decided they didn't have the money and so what
we did at that time, we did stub water out to them, but at this time there hasn't
been any other landscaping put into those ponds and the presumption is that
someday when they do that they will probably ---
(Tape turned over)
Brown: -- the landscaping that we have taken part of. The actual landscaping up
there operates as a buffer and it's along the sides of Federal Way, but the pond
site itself was not landscaped. All five ponds that are on there, they — and there
is not anything — that differs a little bit from what's been proposed here in
Meridian. You will see there is a setup — what was it every 8,000 feet that you
want to have some interior trees so that the trees are not just along the edge of
the road like they are on Federal Way. So, that's what I was prepared to do and
beyond that answer your questions.
De Weerd: Mr. Wynkoop.
Wynkoop: Madame Mayor. I would like to give Wynkoop speech 263 and the
other Commissioners are going not 263 again, but I am going to say it one last
time, so (inaudible ---- —----- ). Drainage is a huge problem and it needs a solution
desperately. We have tried and tried to find some solutions to it. It's eating our
(inaudible) at ACHD. The community needs a drainage district countywide. We
are going to be trying to renew that effort. We'd had it in the past. In the
meantime, it's become increasingly a high percentage of our budget and so we
not only take the street drainage,) but we end up solving, since it's impossible and
a lot of times differentiates street drainage from off-street drainage, we end up
being the defacto drainage district in this valley. It's taking 10, 15 sometimes 20
percent of our capital budget and so what that means is there is a lot less money
to build roads. I believe drainage is a community problem, not an ACHD problem
and I believe it's only ACHD getting stuck with drainage because in order to get
the road built by nature of the beast we have to do something with the drainage
so we end up getting stuck. But, I want everybody to understand the opportunity
cost issue. Now, I am talking the big picture of drainage. Let's talk about
landscaping for just a minute. ACHD's past policy and practice has been with
some exceptions that we build the pond, if somebody wants to landscape it and
maintain it, and then we will give them permission to do that. We have been
pretty consistent on that with drainage ponds and subdivisions as well as our
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 16 of 19
own drainage (inaudible) ponds for the road. But in the past we have been
extremely reluctant to get into the landscaping whatsoever. Again, it's because
we think it's not within our core mission to handle drainage and to go the step
further and do the drainage. Okay, but that's history. Maybe with (inaudible)
Commission and recognition of the practical reality is is we are just going to
handle drainage and therefore, landscaping needs to be part of that solution.
The reason I am bringing all up to you at this point is to say that what we do for
Meridian, we will have to do for all the cities. So, if we are going to adopt this as
a policy for Meridian, I assure you that Boise will want more, then Eagle will want
more or at least as much. We at ACHD I think have a core mission of
(inaudible). We have a whole lot of what I call distracting missions that take
away from our core mission and drainage is one of those distracting missions.
Landscaping is one of those distracting missions. Those are absolutely
essential, absolutely important, but in terms of our core mission they are
distracting functions. So, I guess I just urge you to think carefully that the more
that you request of us in these distracting missions, that means that the less
dollars will be available for our core mission. I submit to you of the Ada County
cities, it is the City of Meridian that most desperately needs us to continue to fulfill
our core mission. Speech No. 263 over, probably for the last time.
Eastlake: I will use that distracting. I like that.
Wynkoop: Tammy, that's just from our point of view.
Bivens: We spend at minimum about 8.5 million dollars a year on drainage. In
one way or the other. That's — we quit adding when we got to that number.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I think the main thing and Ken has pointed it out is we wanted to know what
the other cities were doing. He came back with a very good answer as far as I
am concerned. We didn't expect special favors, but on the same token if he
were to maintain it for somebody else, we expect you to maintain it for us.
Eastlake: We try and be consistent about those kinds of treatments because we
get into too much trouble if —
Bivens: We maintain the pond. That's important. We understand, as far as
taken care of it and mucking it out and what we call major maintenance.
De Weerd: I guess I will give you my speech because — we have requirements
of everyone as you do when we develop a park or develop anything, we pay
impact fees just like everyone else and that's kind of what we told our staff on our
landscape ordinance is that we have this in place because it is our community
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 17 of 19
and it does mean something to us. We have the same scenario as on these
costs and what (inaudible), what pulls at us all over the place and maintenance
and everything else, so we know that song and we sing it in our sewer treatment
plant and our water wells and every other place. It's kind of one of those things
that all of our taxing entities have. But, we are talking key, visible areas of our
community. These are not our parks. These are your drainage areas. If they
were not in real highly visible parts, we could probably say we really don't care as
long as you maintain them or with your grasses or whatever and we have had
conversations about even some of those facilities that look really, really bad. So,
that's the history part of it, but we have some in very key areas of our community.
Franklin and Locust Grove is kind of an entry corridor. Along Franklin when the
overpass goes in, it's certainly a key and boy that other unsightly mess on
Meridian and Overland is an embarrassment. There is absolutely nothing there,
but a fence with slats in it and that is our entry corridor, so we were told at that
time that it would be taken care of and taken care of very nicely and I know you
are not (inaudible--------) business, it's apparent because that corner is horrible.
It's not even weeded. I think that if you come to the city and ask for
maintenance, give us something that we even want to maintain or put it
somewhere that's hidden, not on the front entry to our community. You show
examples where you landscaped and others have maintained it and that's what
we asked for. We wanted to see what others were doing because we didn't have
that in front of us and now Council can see what others are doing and they can
decide what they want to do. But, asking us to landscape it and maintain it and I
am glad you do muck it out because I know sometimes I get to do a lot of things
that aren't in my job description, that wasn't one of them I wanted to do. But, you
know I do appreciate this piece of information, but these drainage areas are on
key corners of our community and again, we want to be partners with you, but we
also want you to take care of your facilities as well. Councilman Wardle.
Wardle: Just to follow up on our discussion as a group. One of the two
comments that came out. One was a set of standards and the City of Meridian
has a set of standards and ACHD has a set of standards and we require all those
that come before us to develop new projects to achieve those standards and it
seemed to us that putting in a new roadway, ACHD was overlooking the
standards in the City of Meridian and even those requirements when we have
private developers that come in to build subdivisions and business parks, we
require both agencies and require them to meet our standards and so that was
one of the discussion items. The second was essentially an equitable situation in
the sense that ACHD is coming to Meridian and asking for maintenance, which
also includes a budgetary dollar figure as Anna has passed through for our parks
director. At the same time, when we develop projects and we are developing a
project right now which is coming before us a 30 acre park out on Ten Mile and
will be required to pay those impact fees and so that was really the tax payer
question that we were asking.
De Weerd: Mr. Franden.
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 18 of 19
Franden: You know Tammy I agree with you. One of the pet peeves I have had
about our area ever since I was a little kid was along our roadways we treated
them very poorly. We let weeds grow. We let it look trashy. You can have a
beautiful highway or beautiful road going and just off of it you don't have any
landscaping at all and it doesn't look good. If I had the money and the ability I
would do a lot of landscaping and we have to figure out how to maintain it, but
what goes through my mind is because — you know I don't have any pictures, I
need a picture of what you are talking about of specific corners and so on. I
would say let's take each one of the problem areas and jointly take a look at
those and see how we could solve it so that indeed it does look nice.
Brown: I think I can address that. I think we are spending some time discussing
or debating something (inaudible) resolved and that's about what is going to be
installed, but since (inaudible) Franklin and Locust Grove went through your
design process and your folks improved that. It was done in accordance, okay?
So what has been put in there, Overland and Meridian is being designed right
now and we let you know at least I think we did that we were waiting on that
because we would have another project that is going to resolve in widening that
out and that's that intersection over there. We said that what we wanted to do
was wait on that until we added in the extra piece and then we would design that
up as part of that, but in response to the Mayor who talked to Bruce about the
fact a while back and said that you didn't like that over there, just like what you
just pointed out. We already have that under design and so we are planning to
do that work next spring and it's already been over with your people and they
already had taken a look at that preliminary design, that's what I mentioned prior
because of where that pond is is going require a little bit of a variance with regard
to the distance, but the actual stuff that is being designed is being reviewed by
your folks. So, you are having an opportunity to decide what we are going to put
in there. The only issue that the Highway District still has on it's plate is the one
about who is going to maintain the landscaping that's planned to go in there.
De Weerd: Well, Kent I think you gave us some good information that the
Council did ask and then Gary, apparently, was very good at communicating it to
you and this was very helpful and I am sorry — my 101 is just not as finely
polished as Mr. Wynkoops.
Brown: We have a plan on that. It is ugly over there.
Eastlake: I think it looks better than it used to. Where have you guys all been for
the last (inaudible) — that's the pathway in.
Brown: (Inaudibe--------).
De Weerd: Well, Kent we will let your (inaudible--------) or I will give Jay a call
once Council has a moment to (inaudible ------------- ).
Meridian City Council & ACHD Commission Meeting
November 16, 2004
Page 19 of 19
(Inaudible discussion ----------------------)
De Weerd: Now Commission, we do have a presentation by Hudson, Tom
Hudson about the downtown traffic management plan. Hopefully you can all stay
and listen to it. It is a 20 -minute presentation at the conclusion of this and they
have a 7:00 meeting that they have to start, so we really need to cut this off.
Commissioner?
Speaker?: One thing about doing this and I think it shouldn't be lost is it's our
problem. It's a community problem. It's not just an ACHD problem. It's a
community problem that hasn't found a solution. So, I think that's message one.
It's not just a developer going in and developing a project. ACHD is
accommodating the drainage because there is no one else that is doing it and we
need to do it and (inaudible) project done as you requested, I think my only
probably final point is that more required on ACHD the higher the cost county-
wide the less funds available to do the road projects you so desperately need so
I just ask that that point not be lost in this discussion. It's always possible, for
example, for the internal, but the homeowner's association to maintain it. If we
don't do a level of installation and maintenance that the city is comfortable with, it
is always possible for the city to say we prefer a higher standard and we will
accept the responsibility for the higher standard.
De Weerd: I should have asked for the Reader's Digest version. I did fail to
introduce our new Council member, Christine Donnell. I know you all know her,
but now you know her as Council Donnell. Motion to adjourn?
Bird: So moved.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor. All ayes.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 6:35 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
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