HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004 10-12 PreCITY OF MERIDIAN
PRE -COUNCIL MEETING
AGENDA
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at 6:00 p.m.
City Council Chambers
Roll -call Attendance:
X Shaun Wardle O Vacant
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
2. Adoption of the Agenda:
3. Discussion of Black Cat Sewer Trunk by David Tumbull and Frank Varriale:
Discussed
(* 30 minutes)
4. Transportation Task Force Recommendations for TIP FY05: Table to
October 19, 2004 Pre -Council Meeting
5. Discussion of Remand Order for Alexandria Subdivision. Annexation and
Zoning, Preliminary Plat and Conditional Use Permit PD: Prepare Findings
of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Denial
6. Discussion of Site Specific Condition No. 15 for the Final Plat of Bear Creek
No. 8: Approve
7. Discussion of Odor Control Study: Table to October 19, 2004 Pre -Council
Meeting
8. Discussion of Ordinance for Appointed Officers: Discuss on Department
Reports
9. Discussion of Ordinance for City Attorney: Discuss on Department
Reports
10. Discussion of Ordinance for Conductina Meetinas: Discuss on Department
Reports
*Approximate allowable time set for agenda item may change depending on
discussion. Please use the designated minutes as a guideline only.
Meridian City Pre -Council Agenda — October 12, 2004 Page 1 of 7
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
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Meridian City Pre -Council Meetina October 12, 2004
The Meridian City Pre -Council meeting was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle and
Charlie Rountree.
Others Present: Brad Watson, Bill Nary, William Musser, Anna Canning, Brad
Hawkins -Clark, Doug Strong, Dean Willis and Will Berg.
Item 1. Roll -call Attendance:
O Vacant X Keith Bird
X Shaun Wardle X Charlie Rountree
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Bird: Council adoption of the agenda, we do have one request from Brad that
Item Number 7, the Odor Control Study needs to be a 45 minutes discussion.
We don't have it timed tonight and (inaudible) Carollo here, he'd like to continue
that to the 19th and for 45 minutes, if possible. If its agreeable to you. Adoption
of the agenda?
Rountree: Mr. President
Bird: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I moved that we adopt the Pre -Council agenda with the removal of
items 7 and having that heard on the 19th
Wardle: Second.
Bird: It's been moved and seconded to adopt the revised agenda. All in favor
say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Item 3. Discussion of Black Cat Sewer Trunk by David Turnbull and
Frank Varriale:
Watson: Thank you Vice President Bird, Mayor and Council members. A little
over a month ago, Mr. Turnbull and Mr. Varriale came and asked about the
possibilities of providing sewer to approximately two square miles bounded by
Ten Mile Road on the east, Black Cat on the west, roughly from Ustick up to
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 2 of 21
Chinden. At that time, it was just a discussion. What came out of that from what
heard was direction to me to, one, bring back the results of another study that
we were doing that was initiated before that discussion came here and that was
the area, sewer-ing the area north of Chinden from approximately Linder Road to
McDermott Road. We do have preliminary results on that today. Phil
Chrisbaugh from JUB Engineers is here and he will give a briefing on the result
of that study. It does tie in to what we would do on this area south in terms of lift
station size and possibly sewer routing and sewer depth and the second thing
that I was directed to do was look at — because I raised the concern of
wastewater treatment capacity during that discussion, I was directed to go back
and look at building permit rates verses wastewater capacity and I'll briefly touch
on that and I must apologize I left the office without printing it out and I see that
Mr. Turnbull has one in his hands, so hopefully they will let me borrow it when it
comes to that point. I am sorry. Thank you. So, we will go through kind of those
two topics and then leave it up to you for questions or if you wish to hear from Mr.
Turnbull or anybody else. We will answer his questions as well. So, with that I
will have Phil kind of give you a rundown on what they have determined on the
(inaudible) study north of Chinden.
Chrisbaugh: Thanks Brad. We started looking at this area back in July. The
study area is bounded from Linder Road on the east and McDermott Road. To
the north Phyllis Canal and to the south of course Chinden or 20/26. It
compasses about a little over 1,000 acres about 1.6 square miles. Current
conditions, if you are not familiar with this area, we have the Spur Wing
development in this area. Of course, the golf course is to the north. We have
existing development about five acre tracks and then a little bit higher density,
one to two acre type development data in here as for existing conditions. We
met with landowners in this area to kind of layout some fundamental land uses
options and that's represented in this figure here, where land owners are a little
bit further out of the gate, they provided concept plans here as this parcel here
shows and where they didn't have concept plans, they have express their desire
for what type of land use they wanted on their particular area of interest.
Generally, if I could just summarize what the proposed land use by the
cooperative landowners that as we understand it is of course, commercial, mixed
use fronting Chinden. That would be this yellow area in this concept plan and
then it feathers back towards the north varying degrees of residential densities to
some larger tracks on the rim here. That kind of summarizes the type of land use
— the report that we will prepare will have this figure and I know that text is a little
bit hard to read, but that identifies what type of land use it is and for our
generation of the model. We looked at two general alternatives for providing
central sewer in the area and they can be categorized as alternative one,
considered a regional lift station to serve this area and the other alternative
considered extensions of future city trunks, the Black Cat Trunk and the
McDermott Trunk and looking at pretty much trying to optimize gravity service
through those trunks. Alternative one then is a regional lift station, somewhere in
the neighborhood of McDermott in the rim, essentially. An 18 -inch trunk here
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 3 of 21
shown on this option will serve this area. This area generates about 2 cfs of
peak sewer flows and the 18 inch working your way up stream of course, gets
sized down accordingly 15 and 12 inch in here. These red lines are just
conceptual 8 -inch collection lines. The point of discharge from this onsite area is
a force main serving into the Black Cat Trunk. Again there is about 2 cfs of flow
generated ultimately is what's predicted and that has some impacts on your
master plan and that's what is flagged here. You are looking at an upsizing of
course of the Black Cat Trunk. Depth because you are lifting to the trunk doesn't
change appreciably; in fact, it's as (inaudible), shallower. But, you are looking at
incremental line sides, from an 18 inch here originally master planned to a 21
and as you step down stream, 18 originally master planned turns into a 24 and to
the north Black Cat lift station. Flows at the Black Cat lift station when this area
is built out, increase about 55 percent with this area — that has an impact to the
sizing of the lift station of course and the sizing of the (inaudible) that are shown
here conceptually pumping back to the treatment plant. Ultimately, you will need
an 18 inch (inaudible) manned to pump back to the treatment plant when this
area — if this area is served through the (inaudible) rather than a 14 inch and we
will summarize, we quantified these impacts and put some probable costs on
those to and we will present those here in just a little bit. The next option is
alternative one "b" and that has the same philosophy as a regional lift station
here. The only change is routing the trunk serving to the lift station, trying to
knock it out into public right of way a little bit quicker rather than through the
middle of the service area as we had in option one "a". This is a slightly more
expensive trunk collection system, if you will to serve the onsite of this study
area. A little bit longer trunk system and it's a little bit deeper. The impacts to
the city system, again, are the same as the previous alternatives — it's for
pumping back to the Black Cat Trunk. The second group of alternatives is
looking at the viability of extension of these future trunks here to provide central
sewer. The main workhorse trunk of course is the Black Cat Trunk line and that
can serve about two thirds of this area here. You can see it's extended up,
cr5osses Chinden and comes up through the middle here and then we have 8 -
inch lines that break back into it. That picks up about 1 'A cfs, out of that too
that's totally generated and serves it through gravity, through the Black Cat Trunk
to the lift station down here. There is less flow being conveyed by the
(inaudible). The (inaudible) isn't impacted in this particular reach until you get
down further to the lift station, but that most dramatic impacts on the Black Cat
Trunk is it increases it's depth on an average of about 6 feet over and above
what is previously master planned for the city system. A little less impact here at
the lift station with the flows being a little bit lower, but you are still looking at a
forest main impact as well. Only up one pipe size verses two as before. The
McDermott Trunk, we looked at extending that up and it doesn't pick up a whole
lot of area here, which kind of works it's — and as such, you end up with the
smaller line serve in that area and it really drives this McDermott Trunk deep. It
drives it over 30 feet, 33 feet deep and it kind of — meeting with staff and what we
would recommend is that kind of washes that alternative out, gravity serving this
piece back. It's getting that sort of depths where if you are not picking up a
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
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factor where that place into the lifetime costs is what type of pump system you
use. The smaller ones tend to be less efficient as opposed to the centrifugal
pumps like we are putting in on the large Black Cat station. So, you get — have
higher capital costs with higher efficiencies and we just didn't get to that detail on
this particular study.
Rountree: You know it's interesting; they are all pretty much comparable.
Watson: Yes, the one thing I point out is there are so many — we discussed this
yesterday there are so many permutations of these little parts and pieces that we
could study this for the next year, I think, and have about 20 alternatives. How
this ties into the area south of Chinden is we need to figure out what kind of
phasing we are going to have north of Chinden in order to get a plan for south of
Chinden or do we ignore it completely and just go with the master plan? So, they
may not seem totally related but sewer wise they are very tied together.
Rountree: Okay, thank you.
Bird: Any other questions Council? I have got a question Brad. A couple of
them in fact. As engineers which one would you recommend, which alternative
would you recommend to --?
Watson: Councilman Bird this alternative two "b" allows greater flexibility in
terms of time line for development north of Chinden. It allows the property that
has a conceptual plan already to move forward quicker, however, it somewhat
penalizes the people west of them in terms of time because they have to rely on
the development of the McDermott area. If we come back up to one of these
alternatives, which is using one sub -regional lift station for the whole area they
are kind of all in the same boat so to speak. It really, really, depends on what
Council wants to do with that area and if we really want to include it. Just from
an engineering standpoint, smaller lift station down here — engineering wise
that's probably the best alternative.
Bird: My second question then, Brad, is we don't have the affirmative to go north
of Chinden anyway?
Watson: Correct.
Bird: This is just something that we are hoping. Why can't we go to south of
Chinden on Black Cat and be prepared to hook up to it, at this point?
Watson: Councilman Bird I think that's what we are trying to do with this third
option we would drive the depth six feet deeper than master planned. Just run it
up there and eventually they could plug into it if the Council so elected to include
that area. The down side is if you don't include that area that there are some
wasted costs.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 6 of 21
Bird: I agree, but you also can prepare at the end of that line to receive the
other, the north of Chinden line, am I not right?
Watson: By going six feet deeper you can
Bird: But, you can prepare for that?
Watson: Yes.
Bird: And if you don't get it north or just six feet deeper into the line. What would
that have capacity if we just went to the south of Chinden at this point until we
are given the go ahead on that land there. What affect would that have on the
plant right now?
Watson: Well, I can sort of transition into that discussion on capacity. This table
and this graph is based on a table that simply tries to project population based on
building permit activity and that is this somewhat light line here — population is
correlated to the right access. The planned capacity is the — what sort of red line
— that shows our history and then our major upgrades and around 2,000 to bring
the capacity to 5.5 over the next two years is as I have explained to you several
times, we will be upsizing quite a few portions of the plant. This line that moves
around a little bit are maximum month flow and most components in the
wastewater plant are sized based on that, not all but most. We are in 2004 right
now. This appears to be what our excess capacity is — the distance between
these two lines, which is roughly 600,000 to 700,000 gallons per day. The flow if
it continues to increase as it has, in 2005 would be right here. The differential
gets even smaller. This is somewhat misleading right here because this is the
year in which the improvements are supposed to be made, but I didn't put them
into the chart until 2007. 1 guess this isn't an exact science, but the point is we
are not at crisis mode yet, but we are — I am getting very urgent with our
consultant on the wastewater plant upgrade is maybe the best way to say it. Just
as an aside, we are meeting with them tomorrow to go over their final scope of
services to bring to you for approval, hopefully, next Tuesday. If not next
Tuesday, the following Tuesday.
Bird: Thank you Brad.
Watson: That's all I have unless you have more questions.
Bird: Any more questions Council? Mr. Turnbull do you want to speak to the —?
Turnbull: Thanks Mr. President. Obviously this is a pretty complicated and
technical issue and Brad has made a good overview of it. This is the first time I
have seen this as well. Some of these things are things that you need to just sit
down around the table and discuss and figure out what the best options and
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 7 of 21
routes are. I kind of came to the same conclusion without having the technical
background that these gentlemen do, but I kind of came to the same conclusion
that — and let me just state again, I don't have any interest in the property north of
Chinden, but I think it's an important move for the City of Meridian and I think
they should plan for that area and by putting that sewer line out there I think you
in essence stake a claim to being able to serve that area better than anyone else.
So, I think that would be a good move for the City. That said, you know, my
property south of Chinden and I really don't want to get caught up in a lengthy
drawn out process of how to serve north Chinden while holding south of Chinden.
So, I am willing to sit down and Becky McKay is here representing Frank
because Frank is out of town today, but we would be happy to sit down with Brad
and Charlie, I think, you are the liaison with the Public Works Department and
maybe we could sit down and discuss alternatives and figure out how to go from
here. That's what I would suggest anyway.
Bird: Is that okay with you Councilman Rountree?
Rountree: That works for me, you bet.
Bird: Brad is that okay with you?
Watson: Yes, it is.
Bird: I think that's a great idea myself
Turnbull: I appreciate that. I don't have anything else to say unless you have
questions for me.
Bird: Any questions for Mr. Turnbull?
Rountree: No questions, but he — that graphic probably is the one that has keyed
all of us in terms of what happens in the next couple of years and we have got to
get that plant upgraded. It's not really about (inaudible) lines, it's getting
capacity. And that's in the works. That's in this year's budgets.
Turnbull: I know you are working with Carollo and I have a meeting with Patrick
White who is their head guy here on a different matter tomorrow. They are a
tenant of ours and so I can certainly put an electrical charge in his chair. Thank
you.
Bird: Thank you, David. Council any other questions for Brad or any other things
you want to do regarding this? We are going to set up a meeting between Mr.
Rountree and Mr. Watson and Frank and David, I believe, and Becky and see
what we can work out. I think it's a very, very good idea and bring it back to the
Council at a Pre -Council if that's agreeable with everybody. Mayor, do you have
any comments?
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
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Item 4. Transportation Task Force Recommendations for TIP FY06:
Bird: We got a note from Brad Hawkins -Clark that he had just got this and I have
not had a chance to look at it. I don't know if any of the other Council has had a
chance to look at it. I don't know if the Mayor has even had a chance. Brad
would you like to fill us in on anything that we might need to know?
Hawkins -Clark: Sure, I would be happy to do that. We basically took the Council
comments from last Tuesday — Katey Levihn with the Highway District, Linda
Ritter and Trisha Nelson with COMPASS — frankly they are the ones that kind of
went in here and they added a few columns. As you recall the Council was
wanting to see construction dates for the project years there and whether or not
they were regionally significant. The functional classification was also added in
there. The content, you know, really didn't change other than the addition of
those kind of four columns right in the middle there. I believe that we have time
that we could get maybe Linda Ritter with COMPASS to clarify this if the Council
needs another week to look at this before making a decision as to whether or not
you want to recommend this list move on to the Transportation agencies. Like I
say I really haven't spent a lot of time with either, but content wise in terms of the
order we did change the ranking orders that reflects the task forces priorities
there on the far left columns so they are listed in that order now. I recall the main
question that came up last week was between items three and four and whether
or not the Mayor and the Council wanted to flip the order of the Linder Road
project and the Ten Mile Road project. The task force submitted to with Linder
Road being a higher priority than Ten Mile.
De Weerd: Mr. President.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: I guess just to build on the discussion we had last week, if Ten Mile
is to be a high priority and I am going on the direction that it is that's why I
continue to appear at ITD to see how we can work closer together to accomplish
that. The plan that we have for our local roads have got to match that priority.
Linder, while it's important, is it more important than all the local landing roads for
the Ten Mile Interchange? Can we trade this schedule for 2009 on the five-year
work plan for ACRD? At this point, I think it would be better to prioritize some of
the other landing roads in its place and I guess this would really drop it out of the
third place quite dramatically.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
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Bird: Thank you Mayor and I agree with you. Council do you want to continue
this in a week so we can look it over. I mean, I am with the Mayor. I think that
we need to look at some priorities that come off of that Ten Mile Interchange.
Wardle: Mr. Vice -President.
Bird: Mr. Wardle.
Wardle: Certainly, I have — I guess one of the things that I heard a
representative from ACHD say last week was that they — and during some
discussions with the ACHD Commission is they have this scheduled in ACHD's
road standard and my only question is that if we move — certainly Ten Mile and
the Interchange are important and they are a priority, but if we move that ahead
of the Linder Road, which we know Linder is going to be built to ACHD's
standards, does that present some sort of a design conflict or even a funding
conflict if you put any type of that new money in there only to have to redo it or to
limit your design?
De Weerd: Mr. President.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: That conversation was more in regards to Katey who was responding
to Linder being moved ahead of Ten Mile because Ten Mile is already in design,
they are already looking at right of way. Ten Mile is scheduled for construction in
2007, Linder is not till 2009. They haven't been doing any work yet on the Linder
one. Is that correct, Gary? So, this — if we are going to move it, now is the time
to move it and then ask for the trade.
Bird: Council and Mayor would you like to have Mrs. Ritter come up and — or
Gary? Whoever would like to come from ACHD and let us know — or
COMPASS?
Rountree: Go ahead and fight over it.
Inselman: I am afraid I am not sure of the question
Bird: Well, Brad did you have a question for them — you wanted them to come
forward?
Hawkins -Clark: No, I don't think staff did. I think merely what we are coming
down to is obviously most of these projects are ACHD and I think we just need
some — if Council wants to switch — it sounds like really the main question on the
table is relating to getting confirmation, (inaudible) not Gary, maybe if you receive
this list as it currently is. I mean is it going to change up the ACHD scheduling in
terms of Ten Mile.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 10 of 21
De Weerd: Mr. Vice -President.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: I guess I will ask a more direct question and Katey kind of observed
this last week. We have Linder Road as number three and it's on your five-year
plan as 2009. She said the message that we are sending them to the
Commission and to ACHD is Linder has a higher priority than Ten Mile and Ten
Mile is already in the process of design and right of way and so that caused red
flags to them, but in our discussion as wanting to show Ten Mile Interchange and
all the local roads to connect up to it. At this point to move Linder into a different
priority order and ask ACHD to consider exchanging that road project to another
one, closer, more related to the Ten Mile Interchange its the best timing now to
do that before they start any work on Linder. Is that not correct?
Inselman: That's correct. Trying to move Ten Mile now would be difficult, I
believe, since we have already started some work on it. Trading Linder for Ten
Mile I don't think would affect our priorities or our work schedule, but if you
wanted to switch another road for Linder since we haven't began the work then
this definitely would be the time.
Bird: Any other questions? Thank you.
Rountree: Do we really need more time to look at the rest of this or maybe could
try and figure out where Linder might better fit in in the priority of things?
Bird: That's at your pleasure Council. What do you want to do Mr. Rountree?
Rountree: Well, Mr. President, if everybody is more comfortable looking at this
for another week and Linda we got another week —?
Ritter: Councilman Rountree, Council yes. As long as we receive the letters in
our office by the 29th of this month, we should be fine.
Rountree: Thank you.
Bird: Council, what do you want to do? I would like to see it continued. It
shouldn't take us long. We have got the 45 -minute presentation by Carollo next
Tuesday and we could have this with it and that would give us our Pre -Council.
Rountree: Either that or do we want to run suggestions to Brad and then have
him compile those and present them to us at the next —
Bird: Well, I think we could do that if you'd like. Council? Shaun? Mayor, what
— do you want to do that?
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 11 of 21
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: Okay, get your things to Brad and then he can have us a new list for next
Tuesday.
De Weerd: Mr. President.
Bird: Madame Mayor
De Weerd: Just would like to thank Brad for getting all the entities together and
coming up with a more comprehensive way of doing this. It's appreciated.
Item 5. Discussion of Remand Order for Alexandria Subdivision.
Annexation and Zoning, Preliminary Plat and Conditional Use
Permit PD:
Nary: Mr. Vice -President, I think Mr. Hawkins -Clark has this particular issue and
I think you should have a memorandum as well.
Hawkins -Clark: Yes, I did submitted a memo last week. Basically just the
summary of this item is that staff and the applicant for this Alexandria Subdivision
have talked about how we need to move this forward. The remand order has not
been formally adopted by Council yet. Basically you did agree to reconsider it
and remanded it, but as you might have seen through the minutes that were
attached to this memo, I guess my concern was just, well twofold. One was the
Planning and Zoning Commission for us to take this back to them and ask them
to review this subdivision. At this point, there is almost nothing if any changes
compared to what they already recommended to City Council. The two main
issues, one being the southern road, the East Greenhaven Street, which is a
southern road Alexandria and the question about the width there we feel is what
has been resolved and thought that the Council agreed with that a couple of
weeks ago, so that would not be a reason to remand it and then the main
question is what to do with their non-residential portion that is fronting on Locust
Grove Road and if that goes retail or commercial or I am sorry, or retail or office, I
guess we just wanted some direction and felt that that would be important for the
Commission to receive that direction as well. I think the applicant is here tonight
to kind of make their case.
Bird: Council do you have any questions for Brad before we hear from Mr.
Wardle?
Rountree: No.
Bird: State your name please.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 12 of 21
M. Wardle: Yes Mr. President, Mike Wardle, 4910 Knoll Wood Avenue in Boise.
appreciate the opportunity to come back. This is the original actions were
based on the roadway and of course the concern for the proposed non-
residential use and as Brad noted the roadway issue has been laid to rest and
the item that I have put on your daises this evening does a composite of the
roadway standards for the projects in and around and it does conform to all the
requirements by ACHD and the Fire Department for the parking on one side as it
will be constructed. The only thing that will have to happen in the future is when
the adjacent property develops there will be a sidewalk on the other side and
that's the only thing that changes. If you take a look at the second page, I 'd like
to just for the sake of getting this down to an action, I have identified three
options and certainly those of what the Council did previously to first deny and
then reconsider. There does need to be another hearing held, but we didn't see
in our discussions with the staff of what would happen really if it went back to the
Planning and Zoning Commission because you have already through that
process have approved the Heritage, the Brockton, the Razzberry; all of these
projects that are similar in character. So the real question's are option one would
be to schedule another hearing before the Council and again consider the
neighborhood commercial zone and I have applied — there are four pages from
the Comp Plan that are attached here as well, but you don't need to look at this
evening because that would come into the discussion at such a hearing. At that
same hearing, the Council could say no the neighborhood commercial is not
appropriate for whatever basis you choose, but you could apply the more
restrictive L-0. That's a right that the Council has through the process. You
could have done it originally, but if you determined that neither the commercial or
the office zone is appropriate then the third option is approve the residential
portion, which I don't think anybody has any argument about now and allow the
applicant to come back at some point in the future with a residential proposal for
the as yet or currently designated non-residential area. I would note and I
pointed this out in the memorandum on the first page that the reason that
Razzberry Crossing came to you with the office proposal is because the
neighborhood opposed townhouses in that area. The original proposal was all -
residential for Razzberry. The neighbors didn't want townhouses closer to
Locust Grove Road so the compromise that everybody settled on was limited
office. However, under the Comprehensive Plan discussion, if you determined
that the non-residential uses are not appropriate because of other considerations
then certainly the only other option available is to go to a higher density. They
are not talking apartments or anything I am just talking about a higher density
residential — could be attached units, town homes or it could be detached — the
higher standard — so anyway, those are the options. We think that the
appropriate action instead of remand back to the Commissioners for the Council
to look at it, say once and for all that no we don't want the commercial or if you
deem that the retail options are appropriate, you could approve that. You could
apply the L-0 zone or you could simply say we will approve the residential
portion and ask you to bring back another residential option in the future. That's
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 13 of 21
what we would ask you to do is schedule a hearing, render the decision and
approve the residential subdivision.
Bird: Any questions for Mr. Wardle? Any questions for the attorney?
Rountree: Yes, I have for Mr. Nary. There is more than just this action on the
table, is there not? There is an annexation as well that would have to be done?
Or was this annexed?
Nary: Councilmember Rountree, I don't believe this property was annexed. I
think that was part of what was —
M. Wardle: All of the applications were —
Rountree: I mean that would be the first thing. If in fact we as a Council thought
that there ought to be another use in limited office or the C -N zone be residential
it seems to me that that's something that should go back to P&Z because that is
a fairly significant change from the original application. Is that a fair interpretation
or do we have latitude there?
Nary: Councilman Rountree I guess the issue is are they going to redesign it
based upon that recommendation? The Council certainly is free as Mr. Wardle
previously stated to change the zone and if there is an issue about the design of
the plat then it would make more sense to remand that back to Planning and
Zoning. I think the issue — I think Mr. Wardle has stated it correctly, I mean the
issue is if you want to rehear it you have the ability to do that. You would have to
re -notice the hearing. The issue on the zoning and how the property would be
laid out, I guess, would be the issue on whether or not to return it back to
Planning and Zoning and I don't know what Mr. Wardle's response would be, but
it sounds to me that if that were the Council's decision, I think Planning and
Zoning would need to look at it again, wouldn't they Mr. Hawkins -Clark?
Hawkins -Clark: I would agree with that.
Nary: So, if part of the recommendation, I think, part of why you are here Council
is because the initial discussion wasn't clear whether or not you wanted to re-
evaluate the zone and the plat that was proposed. If that is what you would like,
then that's what the remand would include and then the Alexandria folks would
have a little more direction as to how to do that, if that's what your preference is.
Rountree: If I remember right we haven't had the findings, but one of the issues
was the C -N in this area and neighborhood that wasn't consistent necessarily
with where it was in the Comp Plan and we had some difficulty with that. Me,
personally, if I were to see this again I would want to see the entire concept
redone in terms of consistency with the Comp Plan with some form of residential
at that location.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 14 of 21
(Tape turned over)
Rountree: Hearing it again at Council and the remanding it back and then having
the public having yet at two more hearings to face that we would at least
eliminate one of the hearings, from my point of view. I don't know what the other
two Councilmen would like.
Nary: Madame Mayor, members of the Council, Councilman Rountree I mean I
think that is exactly right. I think that was maybe the clarity or the direction that
maybe staff was needing to be able to give to Mr. Wardle so that they could see
whether or not they were going to continue with the similar design or whether it
was just the street issue and I don't know maybe Mr. Wardle has another
comment, but I think you are right. It would probably eliminate one hearing by
the Council hearing it, remanding it and then having to send it back again to
Planning and Zoning because of the redesign issues.
M. Wardle: Mr. President if I might respond, the attorney is correct you could
apply strictly the residential zone and the R-8 zone that's been proposed for the
residential portion of this does gives us sufficient density capability to come back
with a project in the future on just that front. We would not be changing any of
the remainder that is shown as the residential at this point. It does give us all the
con activity concepts of the neighborhood center in your Comp Plan. It gives us
the potential to make all of the linkages between Heritage to the south and this
area to the north, so we wouldn't be changing any of this. The only question
would be if it's not C -N or L -O this could simply be held out and come back as a
future application and wouldn't change any of the rest of the project proposal.
So, we would ask that you actually do that. If you deem that the retail or the
office is not appropriate at that point, prove the balance of it in that subsequent
hearing — if you just wanted to break this off you could annex only that portion,
but you could also annex everything and apply the R-8 zone and again as I
stated it gives sufficient density through the process to allow for a reasonably
well-designed residential project in the future. So that would be our request is to
bring it back, render that decision, but we are prepared to proceed with this
portion of the project under any scenario.
Bird: Councilman Wardle.
S. Wardle: Mr. Vice -President I will just restate my comments during the actual
hearing itself and I didn't have — we had some questions about the zoning and
capacity for square footage of commercial in that area and I didn't have an issue
with that and I still don't. The reason the project was denied is obviously I was
not in the majority and so — I will just restate that in the sense that from a hearing
perspective I know that there were strong public comments about the project
itself and certainly about that commercial zone. I don't know procedurally if it
makes sense have all those comments out of Planning and Zoning and then I will
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 15 of 21
come forward or not. Just to restate my earlier opinion and then I guess my
question for us as a Council is whether to do that procedure.
M. Wardle: Mr. President I would point out that there were two neighborhood
individuals that came and their primary concern was the retail opportunity that
would have hours that would be beyond the typical office. So there were only
two people that came to discuss that matter and it was not opposition to the
project per se, but it was that one issue.
Bird: Very true.
M. Wardle: So, again we would ask that you bring it back and render that
decision and that we could go forward and get the part that nobody does have
any difficulty with moving.
Rountree: Mr. President.
Bird: Mr. Rountree
Rountree: My opinion as stated previously on some of these kinds of projects is
that they are fairly small anyway. I am not of a mind to chop it up even smaller to
start figuring out how to make it work. I would like to see it all looked at that front
portion coordinated with the rear portion and whatever design concept might be
put together for the plat before I would act favorably on annexation. That's my
position.
Bird: I would agree with Councilman Rountree I am afraid if we do it in parts we
are going to get stuck out there and get hung out to dry on the front part. I would
want to see the whole concept back before I could move favorably on it too and I
agree with Mr. Rountree on that.
Rountree: I guess, again, the question for Mr. Nary is if that's the case and that
sort of action, would that then result in a sufficient enough change to remand it
back to Planning and Zoning before Council?
Nary: Madame Mayor, members of the Council, Councilman Rountree I think
since all this before you tonight was a request to reconsider. If you don't choose
to do that, that's fine. I think the staff had held off the findings, you are allowed to
amend the findings when they are before you or prior. You could certainly
incorporate if you want to make a motion to amend your findings tonight to
include your discussion regarding that front piece and the design of it and the
relationship to the Comprehensive Plan as well as to the other surrounding
neighborhood to address those neighbors concerns regarding the C -N or the L -O
and then they address this as all one property. That could all be included in your
findings. That should be within — you should have within a week or two before
and then it would be remanded back to Planning and Zoning and they may have
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 16 of 21
— they would likely have more direction for the developer to be able to bring that
forward to Planning and Zoning.
Bird: Council what is your recommendation?
M. Wardle: Could Mr. Johnson who actually owns the property make a brief
comment, please?
Bird: Real short.
M. Wardle: I would just point out that it's apparently clear that neither the L -O nor
the C -N are what you are interested in, so it would be residential.
Johnson: I am Lonnie Johnson. My only concern is we had originally started out
as thinking all residential and staff kind of suggested that when the neighbor went
with some — what it was supposed to be was like R-8 in the front with some
townhouses. The opposition was unbelievable, I mean, there was 40 to 50
people at the Planning and Zoning meeting and they stayed until 1:00 in the
morning and they were mad. It was the neighbors across the road with the one -
acre parcels and they were there until 1:00 a.m. They were just hot and finally
Planning and Zoning said, what if we went light office? They said well they don't
like any development, but that's probably better than high density because it was
against their one acre pieces. So, we went to staff and said we were planning on
residential, but seeing the bees nest that that created and being in what should
be an R-8, we were in the neighborhood center, we are going to run into the
same thing and basically our neighbors told us we would. So, we went with the
same thing the neighbors did, trying to go into the light office to break that up a
little bit and have less of what the neighbors opposed. That's how we came up
with our plan. All I am saying is that if we come back with residential now and
these neighbors come back, I just want your backing. I don't care how mad they
are, we have already seen that. We tried to work within that, but if they get
stirred up — maybe they won't, I know one person moved and I think they were
the ones that were really stirring things up and if that happens to be the case we
may fly right through, but I was pretty shocked at how many people could come
to the Planning and Zoning and how mad they could get, I mean, blood vessels
were popping out. One after the other came up and it just went until 1:00. 1 don't
mind fighting them, but when you steer me back to that then back me up.
Rountree: Mr. President.
Bird: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I guess I might comment that I hope your approach is not fighting
them. I hope your approach is going there and working with them to put your
client (inaudible) —
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 17 of 21
Johnson: We did. We had two neighborhood meetings. They all seemed
happy. We had two people show up at our meeting and I thought boy we cut it
down from 50 to 2 and we accomplished it. Then it was up here that didn't like it,
so we are going back to what they didn't like kind of and that's R-8 residential
and that's what they didn't like, so I am not at all wanting to fight them. My
proposal has been to follow Razzberry Crossing and to try and not make the
same mistakes they did where they got turned down by Planning and Zoning and
then had the huge uproar. That was my whole intent. So, we thought we were
drafting behind the big truck and all the bad things getting out of the way and
that's how we designed it, real (inaudible). I mean to not fight them is to do
nothing. That's what they want. Don't develop it. That's to do nothing. So, we
thought we would design something and with their talking to them that they best
appreciated and they seemed to. They seemed to go along with this in both
neighborhood meetings and that's what we wanted. We really thought it would
pass flying colors. I was kind of shocked when it came up and not. I was kind of
taken aback because its exactly what we are trying to do was to take the path of
least resistance in a nice project. I don't intend on fighting, it's not in my nature.
But, I do need to be backed — if I am forced to do it this way and they do get
unhappy — I can't predict that they will then I just need your backing just to realize
that this is what you guys wanted and put us back too. I don't want to come back
three times or four times, just push between the two forces. I am trying to do
what — I think it's a great project and we have put a lot of thought into it. But, I
don't mind residential in there.
Bird: I think that, Mr. Johnson, that you have got the idea of where the Council
stands, each one of us individually, so I don't — the thing that I am afraid of is if
we keep having these retail and office stuff we are going to have another
Fairview Avenue from Curtis Road to Five Mile down Locust Grove. Locust
Grove is not capable of having that kind of traffic. At the same token, I don't think
that the people out there are ready for apartments and stuff, too.
Johnson: That's not what we (inaudible) —
Bird: I think that's what your other one come in with was real high density, wasn't
it?
Johnson: No — it was patio homes or something. It wasn't that much. Maybe
that's all blown over. Maybe they had their say, maybe it's blown over and we
don't take the chance really.
Bird: See what we are going to do here and get it going. Thank you. Council
what do you want to do?
Rountree: Mr. President, I would (inaudible) that we include our comments this
evening as it related to Alexandria Subdivision and the findings and facts and
conclusions of law and that those be before us next week and provide direction
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 18 of 21
to staff on future action on this project.
motion.
Bird: Do I hear a second?
Wardle: Second.
I don't know what more we need in the
Bird: Okay, it's been moved and seconded to move it forward as stated. All in
favor say aye. Opposed? Nay.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
De Weerd: Mr. President. Were you an aye?
Bird: Yes, I was an aye. Yeah.
Item 6. Discussion of Site Specific Condition No. 15 for the Final Plat
of Bear Creek No. 8:
Bird: Mr. Hawkins -Clark were you taking that?
Hawkins -Clark: I wasn't set up for that, but I think Mr. Brown is here to talk on
this matter.
Bird: Okay. Mr. Brown?
Brown: I know you have a full evening. Basically what we have is the condition
required on Bear Creek No. 8 for us to provide you with a pathway easement.
We were in the process of doing that, looking at the property now that the grating
has taken place and my client has offered to build that pathway for you. At this
point we approached the Park's Department and our agreement that we can put
in a location that would best serve them, but we would like you to take ownership
of that lot that that is in and that includes the Ridenbaugh Canal and so basically
we would fence the back of the properties and then we would install an asphalt
path and then leave it to the city to operate and maintain. That's the proposal
and the staff said that because that wasn't the way that the condition was
originally written it was just granting an easement that we needed to discuss that
with the Council.
Bird: Any questions for Mr. Brown? Mr. Wardle do you have any? Doug do you
have any problems with it?
Strong: Mr. Vice -President, members of the Council actually, Mr. Brown, I have
discussed this and we think it's a good proposal and we are in agreement with
what he is proposing.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 19 of 21
Nary: Mr. Vice -President, I was the one that suggested to Mr. Brown to come
before you to come before you. I think all that staff needs is direction from the
Council to move forward with an amendment to the site specific condition that
was already on the plat and then we will go through the process of getting the
property deeded over and all of that. But, I think we just needed the direction
from the Council to do that.
Rountree: Do you need a motion to that affect?
Nary: Yes.
Wardle: Mr. Vice President before we get to that, just a question to staff.
believe this is a different — to Park staff, I am sorry — Doug, this is a different
arrangement than we have seen — than we saw last week in the sense that this is
a piece of property which is deeded to the city. So, do I understand that that
means that we will also maintain it and if so is that in our budget for the year in
which this will be built?
Strong: Councilman Wardle, typically in the first year of a pathway that's built like
this there is very minimal maintenance to the pathway, so it shouldn't impact the
operating budget at all. We have a — this is similar to the Locust Grove Place
pathway that went in this last year and we have done some weed control along
that pathway and its had a very minimal impact. So, it's almost an identical
proposal as that particular pathway.
Bird: Any other questions?
De Weerd: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: This is tied to a pathway — I mean this will connect to something. It is
in our master plan or at least in a plan?
Strong: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay. Just wanted to make sure.
Rountree: Mr. Vice President I move that we direct staff to prepare an
amendment for site specific comment no. 15, Final Plat Bear Creek No. 8 to
incorporate the request that we have heard for this evening from Mr. Brown.
Wardle: Second.
Bird: Okay, its been moved and seconded to approve the request from Bear
Creek on site specific no. 15, all in favor say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 20 of 21
Nary: Mr. Vice -President I was going to say on Items 8, 9 and 10 if the Council
would like we could move that to Department Reports on the regular agenda.
Bird: Council would that be your pleasure?
Rountree: That would be my preference.
De Weerd: Mr. President.
Bird: Madame Mayor.
De Weerd: I guess in Item No. 8 on the appointment for officers, it does affect
my appointment of Mr. Watson and so it would need to go prior to my report.
Bird: Well, we could put it ahead of your report.
Rountree: (Inaudible).
Bird: I mean, we will put the attorney ahead of the Mayor on the staff reports,
okay? Then he can take care of it. Council, that takes Pre -Council meeting. I
would entertain a motion to adjourn.
Rountree: So moved.
Wardle: Second.
Bird: All in favor say aye.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Item 7. Discussion of Odor Control Study:
Item 8. Discussion of Ordinance for Appointed Officers:
Item 9. Discussion of Ordinance for City Attorney:
Item 10. Discussion of Ordinance for Conductina Meetings:
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:05 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting
October 12, 2004
Page 21 of 21
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