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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004 07-20 PreCITY OF MERIDIAN PRE -COUNCIL MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, July 20, 2004 at 6:00 p.m. City Council Chambers 1. Roll -call Attendance: X Shaun Wardle X Bill Nary O Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird X Mayor Tammy de Weerd 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Approve 3. Discussion of Area of City Impact by Dan Wood: Discussed 4. Discussion of Pedestrian and Bicycle Facility Data Collection Project: Bring Back July 27, 2004 meeting S. Discussion on Dr. Freilich Guide Plan and Implementing Ordinances: Discussed 6. Discussion of Golf Course Amended Ordinance: Move forward — Put on Regular Agenda (*15 minutes) *Approximate allowable time set for agenda item may change depending on discussion. Please use the designated minutes as a guideline only. Meridian City Pro-Counoll Agenda — July20, 2004 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. Meridian City Council Meeting July 20, 2004 The Meridian City Pre -Council meeting was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Bill Nary, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle. Staff Present: Gary Smith, Brad Watson, Bill Nichols, Anna Powell and Tara Green. Item 1. Roll -call Attendance: X Bill Nary X Keith Bird X Shaun Wardle O Charlie Rountree X Mayor Tammy de Weerd Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we adopt the agenda as published. Wardle: Second. Nary: It's been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda as published. All those in favor, say aye. ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. Item 3. Discussion of Area of City Impact by Dan Wood: Wood: Thank you very much, Council. I won't take very long. I know it's — I've got a little map — myself and some partners are acquiring a piece of ground that is in your referral area and it is in southeast corner of your area. We stopped in there and talked with the staff. They suggested that we might come here and talk with you tonight just briefly to kind of see what the Council's thoughts were in that part. Right now, the map that I gave you there shows you that Messina Hills is as far as the development has gone, but yet your impact area is the brown line there and the parcel of ground that we have is the ground there in yellow. It's a large piece of ground. It's over 200 acres and currently it's in your referral area and about all we can do with it is we put an application into the county to do a (inaudible) with the plans of doing, you know, a central contained sewer system there. But, that's about all we can do. So, why I am here tonight is one is to Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 2 of 22 maybe with all the growth that's going on at Eagle Road and Overland to see if maybe the city would think about maybe in the future and how soon the future might make a determination as to what our plans will be. But, the hopes of maybe moving your impact area further to the south and I guess that's why I am here. See what your take might be. Nary: Council, any questions or comments for Mr. Wood? Bird: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: I have got a question for Brad or Gary and I can't remember if J -U -B's study, if we went that far south and if that can sewer at that area. We probably are — what are we talking, Dan, two miles away from Messina Hills? Wood: Messina Hills there is at the half mile mark, so you are about a half a mile to Amity and then we are a quarter mile from that. I am not sure, but I think the people that own Messina Hills have also purchased the piece right next to it. Bird: Just south of it? Wood: Just south of it, which then puts you a quarter mile to Amity, which puts us a half a mile away from where we would be at. Bird: Have you got one of those maps, Brad? Watson: Mr. President, Mayor, Council members, yeah, we do. Not sure how easy it is to get it on the overhead, but the J -U -B master plan does have a trunk designated to go through that property in the future. If you recall, our master plan on the south end goes outside the area of impact simply because it could. We just kept running it out until it couldn't serve any more or ran into Boise City. So, it does bisect — I'm sorry — Bird: And then naturally flowed in at — natural flow? Watson: Councilman Bird, it did. It — I can't remember the name of the drain and my pointer is not working too well, but — is that right, Dan? (Inaudible answer). Wood: But that is the drain, Brad, right there. Watson: It doesn't go a whole lot farther. Bird: But, if I remember right, it flowed down in to that. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 3 of 22 Watson: Excuse me, it is actually master planned to go another three quarters of a mile east. Wood: So the (inaudible) would be with the non-farm right now we would — if you are somewhat familiar there is a ridge up there in the very south west corner, which is not very good farm ground, but great home sites. But, we also figured that we would much rather do a nice big development and incorporate the whole thing, but of course we don't have sewer yet. We can't get that from you until the city limits are that far. Also, it would be open to if there is a way that maybe we could maybe work something out or provide at least sewer, some kind of connection to the city sewer for the non-farm, if that was an option or if that was something that the city would talk to us about for a temporary verses coming up with a secondary choice or which preferred way. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Brad, is that not in the Black Cat Trunk Line? Watson: Madame Mayor, technically it's not. But, the Ten Mile Trunk has a limited capacity so anything — well, I shouldn't say anything, but the majority of all this area will be diverted into the Black Cat Trunk once it's gets there. I did meet with Dan several weeks ago and Gary Lee from J -U -B to talk about this. There are a couple fairly serious issues on this for sewer because the Ten Mile Trunk does have limited capacity. We went through that whole thing with the Bear Creek project years ago. At that time we estimated there were approximately 1,100 to 1,200 units left of capacity. By units, I mean single-family residential. The Bear Creek developer did build the bypass line, which is required by the city, which we estimated essentially doubled that available capacity from 1,100 to 22 or 2,400. Since that time, we have had Bear Creek; we have had the Tuscany, Messina Hills Complex, Glacier Springs, Observation Pointe and a few others that have been recently approved. What we are actually doing even this month is flow monitoring that trunk so that we can remodel it to come out. Dan kind of prompted this. We were already going to do it, but he expedited our efforts on this particular question to find out exactly how many units we do have left out in the south area until the Black Cat Trunk is extended. So, I don't have an answer tonight. De Weerd: But I believe the reason it was in the referral area was because we didn't think that we could sewer that area in the amount of time they were asking at the time, we were negotiating that area of impact, is that correct? Watson: Yes, I think so. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 4 of 22 De Weerd: So, it's not a question that can we sewer it or not, we can. It's just a matter of when we can do that and the capacity. Watson: Correct. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: Just to, I guess, to give my opinion to Dan's question is would I consider adding this to the area of impact? Certainly, in my opinion I would consider it. It seems that we have master planned this for that area. If the city staff doesn't have an answer tonight as to exactly when they could do that or even if we have the capacity, but I think it's something that we should be willing to look into. It's in our referral area for a reason and we should have at least a good answer for a time line or if we could do it. Nary: Mr. Wood what about this piece right here? From what I understand if the — is this the entire piece, you think, is owned by Messina Hills or just this section here? Wood: My understanding is Messina Hills has this 80 -acre parcel here. Then, potentially, word has it is these are 20 acre parcels that one individual has these four also and sewer, the main trunk line that's coming this way is right in this area already. So, actually it would bring — you know, for this to develop it would almost have to come and take access off of Amity, which then really only puts it one parcel away from this. Then this is owned by four or five property owners. Nary: So, it might be a while for it to be contiguous as well to the city? But, that's our patchwork quilt if they could — Wood: Well, the only reason they say that is potentially if the four 20 -acre parcels were to come into you guys this year, which would have to take access right off of Amity, which then would mean if we obtained one of the parcels right on Amity, which would then make us contiguous, the whole thing. Bird: Mr. President Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: Two things. Are these two corners, Dan; are they not part of your development? The two little corners there? Wood: The two little pieces that I kind of etched out, no. The one triangle shaped one is owned by a couple of individuals of which part of them is the Fulture Family and then the other one where — kind of over there in the southeast Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 5 of 22 corner that is where Mr. McKay lives, which is the one that owns the majority of that ground there. So, those two are not. Bird: Well, this isn't something that would be new. It would be new to this Council, but it isn't new to the City of Meridian. We did this at Vienna Woods and at that point, I think, what was a mile away from the city limits at that time, Gary, that we did Vienna Woods? So it isn't something new and I am kind of like Councilman Wardle, I am interested in the impact area, if it can be done. I don't know why it can't be done other than the fact that the Ten Mile Trunk is — until we get Black Cat out there and get some of the stuff off of Ten Mile, that's on Ten Mile that should be on Black Cat. I don't know, but I would have no problem at really looking at it and working with you on something like this. Like I say, it isn't the first for the City of Meridian to do it. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess it surprises me, this conversation because we have always liked to annex from the inside out. This is not inside, it's outside. Vienna Woods was different because we had the area of impact boundary to stop at, to protect, I guess and so even at that time and when Edinberle came in there were other stated reasons. What about the commitment of the properties between this and what is in inside going out and if we don't have the sewer capacity to sewer that? So, I do think that in this whole south area we need to take a look at it and see how we can sewer it and what line best can sewer it and see what our capacities are. There are a lot of people in the south side and a lot of need for development because of the jobs that are coming in there. So, I certainlyunderstand that, but we have maintained a policy of growing from the inside out and I would like to see us follow that policy and certainly accommodate and master plan like we did in the north Meridian area to know what the big picture is going to look like and what we need in those areas as far as other city services so that we can plan it with a purpose instead of with a little bit of different theme in mind. I don't know. I agree with Councilman Wardle that let's take a look at this and — but, I guess we would need some input from staff as to what the steps would need to be to determine and start really planning for that. The north Meridian area was a collaborative effort by a large group of developers, transportation planners and the city to really look at the whole picture and all of the needs instead of just sewer and water. That would be my caution is let's move forward and make sure what we do, we do it right and not just for a particular isolated area. Nary: One other comment, too is in the past and other ones that we have had in the last year or so, this kind of out parcel, when this person owns that, we haven't annexed. We have said they have to come into it. The fact that they don't own this one is not their problem, but if this person owns all of this, they would have to come in as well. We weren't going to create another enclave. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 6 of 22 Wood: Good to know, there. Thank you very much for your time. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess before you move on, I think if we can ask staff so we can tell Mr. Woods how we would like to move forward in this area, let's consider the options that we have and maybe within the next several weeks to give it some thought and see how we can start moving ahead because we do need a plan on the south side and I think we have been kind of hitting around that discussion for the last six months. We do need to do it and how best can we move forward? I think we do need to give an answer to Mr. Wood on how to best proceed with that. So, Anna do you have any suggestions? Powell: No, the Council has reached several good options tonight if Mr. Wood could just contact me, we will get together and try and flush out some alternatives for the Council. I think Brad is already working on his end of things so we can incorporate that as well. De Weerd: Okay and that probably needs to take a look at and maybe you can come back with the amount of area to look at in that. Okay? So, Mr. Wood, you did hear that? That she would like you to contact and you can discuss what the next steps are. Okay? Wood: Thank you very much. Item 4. Discussion of Pedestrian and Bicycle Facility Data Collection Project: Levihn: Good evening Mayor and City Council members. My name is Katy Levihn, planning, programming and cost estimating manager with Ada County Highway District. Thank you for scheduling me for time tonight. I am here to do that time-honored duty of requesting funds from you. We sent you a letter on June 10th, which I believe you should have up there on your computer under the subject of pedestrian and bicycle facilities data collection. It explained that in conjunction with our community program reevaluation, which your staff has attended some of our work sessions for that and along with some America Disabilities Act requirements that have kicked into effect after a ten-year review at the federal level, Ada County Highway District is performing an inventory of our sidewalks in the county. This is a very intensive data collection effort as you can imagine walking up and down every street in Ada County. We had to prioritize that somehow do to funding restraints. We are proceeding with the work under Tier 1, which you can see is six square miles in Meridian. That's the core right here and now we also have the Tier 1's in the five other cities around Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 7 of 22 the county. Tier 1 was determined by overlaying GIS layers that indicated where schools, government buildings, major employers, low income neighborhoods and mobility impaired districts were gleaned from mapping information plus the census 2000 data. And where we had the highest overlap, that was our Tier 1 for our first approach at this. What I am here to ask for is some funds, if you have them available at either in this budget year or the next budget year. For Tier 2 and if you'd like Tier 3 our Commission would really like to complete at least Tier's 1 and 2. In Meridian you can see that if you take that small map with you it outlines the Tier 2. It essentially adds 30 square miles of data collection work to the six miles that we are doing in Tier 1 in your city and accomplishes covering your entire city limit area and part of your area of impact. Steve Siddoway did bring up that there is one small group of your city limit area that is outside of that Tier 2 and we would be willing to put that up under Tier 2 over there in the west. For this effort we are asking $6,380 for Tier 2. If you would like us to go farther into Tier 3 that would be $4,400. We do have — the way the work is done you can see these dark areas up here as where we have already collected. We have already done two square miles in the City of Meridian. We'd expect to pick up the other four within that Tier 1 in the next three to four weeks and all of the Tier 1 data collection effort is currently scheduled to be complete sometime between August 20 to 27h. What we would like to do is continue to proceed on with the Tier 2 using the same staff that have already been trained so I don't have a learning curve to bring them up again and continue this summer and get our report on those facilities. Hopefully, it's scheduled for about December. So, with that brief overview I will stand for any questions. Nary: Excuse me, Council, are there any questions? Bird: I have none. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess what are the other communities funding as part of this? Levihn: At that moment, we have sent essentially the same letter modified for each community to all six cities and Ada County. Eagle has already committed $2,900 for their Tier 2, which is the percent that was based on the number of roadway miles within their jurisdiction. That's why yours is $6,380. Kuna has indicated they had not made a formal action. They have indicated they will not fund Tier 2 this year and we are waiting to hear from the other cities at this point and time and Ada County. De Weerd: Then what do you do with the data? Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 8 of 22 Levihn: What we are collecting is pretty serious data. It's where the sidewalks exist or don't exist, the connectivity between them, the types of ramps for American's with disabilities act, obstructions in the sidewalk, bad or broken or wavy sidewalk that could be hazardous. We will analyze all of that and then take all that data and prioritize our implementation phase for correcting all the sidewalks. We have also had a planning meeting one week and one half ago, which your Mr. Siddoway attended. We are interacting with the City Planning staff and asking what your priorities are in your city so that we can take what comes out of this study, which would show where the highest concentration of problems were in any area. We still expect that to show needs greater than we had the funding for. We'd like to overlap with what the city would like to see and start working on areas in your city to get complete sidewalk and bike lane systems. I neglected to mention we are also inventorying the bike lanes at this point. De Weerd: So, would you be then pursuing additional funds from the City or is it just for this study? Levihn: This is just for the study. We submitted in February of this year a $5 million request to HUD for discretionary funding. We are not hopeful of getting anything this year, but that is one (inaudible) we are pursuing additional funding on. This would help us with prioritizing our $2 million program that we currently have in the five-year work program for community programs and we will pursue other options. We would at this point, not be asking the city for funds for the implementation, part of the study is to for the consultant to come up and work with us and the public input process to try to determine what are the best ways for funding this effort because I think as is typical we are anticipating much greater needs than we currently have funding available for. But, we would like to tackle the needs in an order that also addresses the concerns of the jurisdictions that we are working in. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: And I heard — you are asking for funds and I guess one of the questions that I have is why is the Highway District soliciting funds from the city on this project? Levihn: Well, I am doing it at the direction of our Commission. Our Commission feels this is a high enough priority and that cities have been requesting an increasing number of sidewalk work. They have put aside $148,000 for this year to do this Tier 1 effort and complete the consultant work and the report funding and we just would like to do it in a more timely manner and don't have the budget right now. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 9 of 22 De Weerd: Mr. Chair. Nary: Madame Mayor De Weerd: I guess that raises another question, Katy because Meridian has not benefited from that program at this point. I know, certainly, having just learned about is six months ago that I asked staff to look into it and see if we could be. I think that Commissioner Eastlakes correspondence out to the communities did raise this, as it is a program that we haven't had any good knowledge of or been a participant and we want to be a participant because we have not really utilized your program. So, I think at this point even those communities that have utilized the program and have benefited from it, they should be the first ones that you approach. I agree this is a needed program, so don't get me wrong. I did want to even get more of the priorities around the schools to make sure that we have connectivity on the sidewalks and suggested to Planning and Zoning that we get the PTA's involved in identifying those areas; so, when this came up I was — and the request for funds, having not been a participant in the program it was a little bit out of the ordinary. But, I understand your importance to getting it done, but I would think that some of the benefactors of that program should be kind of the first ones to help fund. (Inaudible---) well some of the decisions on the benefactors of getting some of these grants and improvements be determined on who participates in the funding of the Tiers. Levihn: Not for the Tier 1, not at all. I mean that downtown area we are committed — those core areas we have to be committed to doing those. Tier 2 it's just a matter of bringing those into the program. I mean until we identify the needs, it would be difficult to tell where in the Tier 2 we should do it. But, I do not anticipate us holding that hostage over anything. De Weerd: But the priority would be in the Tier 1 areas because those are probably the most needed. Levihn: Those are the most needed and that's where we will at the end of this summer then have really concrete data that's been collected on those. And, yes, part of this whole community program thing — the previous largest component of the community program, which was residential streets and neighborhood enhancement about ten years ago was set up on a request based process only. I think that's why you think you have not benefited from. That represents roughly a million of the two million dollars. De Weerd: I know, we've never asked. Levihn: Well, no, but you have under community programs benefited some because there are other programs, miscellaneous concretes they (inaudible) to school where we have gone out and done it, but what staff recommended and the Commission agreed with is we need to be going to a needs based program, Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 10 of 22 not a request base because as you have so aptly pointed out some people heard about it, some people didn't. Some people are more vocal, others are not so organized. I mean, where there are neighborhood associations that are strongly organized and have a whole process. They have been very successful. Of course, there aren't neighborhood associations so strongly organized across the county. So, this is a whole transition program trying to go from, you know, hear it by ear to needs based coordinated with the city jurisdictions about where they would like to see it, see the dollars spent. See you are correct. We are in a transition. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: I can definitely see the benefit of the program and certainly in a growing city like Meridian and a growing school district it could probably help the site selection of those schools, which is an agenda item that we discussed with the Highway District in lieu of the new middle school on Linder. So, I think it's certainly an important program whether the city should participate or not is certainly a question, but I do have a question and that is Tier 1 has already been funded and if the city chooses not to fund Tier 2 program, does that mean that it won't get done? Levihn: It means it won't get done this year, this summer or this fall. You know the Commission will reevaluate next year when we go into that. Yes. It's not like it may never get done. I am not sure where they are going to stand on that. We just felt there were economies that scale trying — we got people trained, just have them keep on going and get it done. This was our strategy to try to get that done this year. Nary: This is probably a silly question, but it seems to me that this is really the Highway District's program, not ours. We would merely be funding it to get it done sooner than later. Would the Highway District reimburse us back the fee? Levihn: That's not a silly question. I have not had that asked before and I don't know the answer to that. I could ask and find out for you. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Does Steve want to add anything? Siddoway: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Steve. Siddoway: From staff's perspective the — what this will do is help us get a comprehensive look at what we have and what our needs are in relation to sidewalks, bike lanes, safe routes to schools, etc. throughout the city by at least Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 11 of 22 adding the Tier 2 so that we can identify our priority areas to go after those funds with. Right now we know of some needs, for example, the Sawtooth Middle School on Linder Road. There was discussion and has been quite a bit about the need for a route to that school. That area shows up in Tier 2 and we know of some ad hoc needs, but how do we as a city prioritize those without knowing the full picture of what our needs are? This study would get us that picture. Timing wise, I would assume the — I think the Highway District was on a schedule to fund Tier 1 this year, Tier 2 the subsequent year, but this is just an effort to move it all up into one effort. Seems beneficial, it's just the timing, but getting it would help us from a planning standpoint be able to review the needs and move forward with some priority to try and apply for funds to the Community Grant Program. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Steve or Anna is there anything in your budget that could assist in the cost? You know we could put this back on the agenda next week and look at our budget. We have been squeezing out projects here and there and the dollars are limited, but maybe we can come back next week and if Council is interested in being a partner to this. I think Steve raises a good point. Sawtooth Middle School is certainly — we have a meeting tomorrow on this, so I guess, Anna, maybe we could just come back next week and see what we can do as far as budget if you think this is something that we should consider. Canning: We will review our expenses, but we are pretty tight. We just hired the parking consultant as well as Diane Christian's work and then Sharon Bacuban's work on the design guidelines, but we may have some. We will double check. Levihn: President Nary and Mayor De Weerd is your fiscal year end September 30th like ours does? Nary: Yes. Levihn: I did get an okay from the Commission that if you couldn't do it this year, we could go ahead and finish it and you could reimburse us in the next fiscal year, so that gives you a second option for budget, looking at the budget. Nary: Or if you guys were funded in your next fiscal year, we wouldn't have to reimburse you. Levihn: At the moment it is not funded in our draft fiscal year 2005 budget, which goes before the Commission August 25th. We are all in the same boat on budget issues. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 12 of 22 Nary: What we will do, Katy, is we will put it on our agenda next Tuesday on our pre -council agenda and in the meantime we will see where budgetarily if we have that kind of funding that we could consider that. Okay? Levihn: President Nary and Council, I very much thank you for even considering it. Thanks. Nary: Thank you. Item 5. Discussion on Dr. Freilich Guide Plan and Implementing Ordinances: De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I had a conversation with Matt Stahl at COMPASS last week after having the conversation with Council and our Planning and Zoning Director's concerns about some of the duplication and if some of the concerns have been really hammered out and I did ask that Matt if he could have someone represented here today to share that. He said that Charles Turner would join us, so Charles maybe you can give us a summary of kind of what has transpired in particular the last week to make this a much stronger effort. Turner: Thank you, Mayor, members of Council. I, too, will give you some paper. This is not very fascinating looking material, but it's an attempt to try to compare the two projects. Sometimes what's called the Freilich Project or the Ada County or Countywide Land Use and Transportation Guide Plan or Ada Guide Plan and Communities in Motion. While Ada Guide Plan is focused on Ada County itself, Communities in Motion would be looking at a much larger area; up to six counties. However, both studies, land use is at the core of what will be considered and that's where we are looking at a lot of coordination between two projects. What I have provided to you is a table that looks at where some of those key junctions are between the two studies. The first column, the Ada Guide Plan Scope; the second column shows the intersect and sort of what are the similarities between the two projects. The last column is probably the most useful one for discussion. Those are areas in which we would look to see some coming together of the two groups that will be overseeing the progress of the Ada Guide Plan and the Communities in Motion project. The first one we are seeing is that on the second page in the Ada Guide Plan is Task 2.8; this is a case where for both the Ada Guide Plan and Communities in Motion is going to be an early stage at which the respective groups will be looking at the project and try to come up with a understanding about what's important to them as the outcome of these studies, what are the priorities, what do they expect to see coming out of the study and that's where we see that the two studies and the two groups need to get together so that there are meshing. The second major Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 13 of 22 activity comes at Task 6.1 for the Ada Guide Plan and at this stage we have already had a series of facilitated workshops with the public, the elected officials, other stakeholders and trying to get them to look at lane use scenarios who (inaudible) Ada County (inaudible), who conditionally what we have done in developing a transportation plan is we have used one scenario of how growth can occur and let what we know to be the case, which is the way (inaudible) happens who guides the future of transportation. Just a case in point, basically, at very low densities, who at two years breaker, three years breaker, you can't go very efficient use of public transportation systems. It really takes densities of six to eight years per acre to get efficient use of fixed routes. That's going up and down the street on a schedule -type transportation. So, after these scenarios of these workshops have occurred, there needs to be a selection of what is the preferred scenario? What's (inaudible---) section junction and coming together of these two groups. Communities in Motion consultant will be working closely with (inaudible) team and the development of those scenarios. We have hired a very respective group, (inaudible group name) part of our consultant team for Communities in Motion. They have looked in Utah, where they envision Utah programs, they are very effective at providing computerized simulation of land use and kind of a gamey approach with the public because quite frankly a lot of what we have done is very, very boring. Lots of tables, GIS and it confuses even our own staff sometimes and we need a more effective process to work with the citizens and other stakeholders. What's (inaudible) scenario is produced? Eventually we come down to the last point at which what does it all mean? What does it tell us about what's going to happen in the community? This is (inaudible) 8.2 and what does it mean for transportation? Based on the preferred scenario, what's important? What are the priorities for roadways, for pathways, public transportation? That's where we are seeing that we need a final meeting with these two groups and you have draft plans and recommendations that are being put together by both the Ada Guide Plan and Communities in Motion and this is consistency, not only between the two different efforts with (inaudible) Ada County to ensure consistency with what we are looking at outside of Ada County and how it interacts with the Freilich study and systems within Ada County, especially within Canyon County. So that third point, basically, is are we talking about the same conclusions and needs coming out of both studies. Once our study is complete with this draft, we will have a set of transportation recommendations. It's at that point that I understand that the Freilich study (inaudible) will go into itself, which is okay what do we need to make these scenarios work. How do the Comprehensive Plans and the ordinances need to be mooted. This is a place where the Ada Guide Plan gets much more detailed, very specific and into regulation and implementation. Should that be the desired outcome of the Ada Guide Plan? We see it as important to Communities in Motion because there has been a weakness that we could make an assumption about land use. (Inaudible--) if it doesn't happen, our plan is not going to be any good. So, we need to be certain that not only does our perception of future growth for Ada County not only reflect what the communities want, but what the communities want in the Comp Plan is being carried out in ordinances for the Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 14 of 22 respective communities. So, we have seen a lot of strength in these two prostheses going together and being consistent. (Inaudible-------) outcome, but I think the overall product is going to be (inaudible), which is a consistent and implement -able transportation and land use (inaudible) for Ada County. Thank you and I will stand for questions? Nary: Council, do you have any questions? De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess I do want to comment. I appreciate. COMPASS working diligently on this. It's like I commented in COMPASS yesterday, you know, dissention and friction sometimes comes up with a much better project and product. Isn't it great that COMPASS is presenting a great offense for the Dr. Freilich study? I think it's wonderful, but I also on a personal note to Charles, who would have ever thought four years ago on our land use subcommittee on COMPASS would we ever get to this point? It's pretty exciting. It's exciting to see us move forward with these concepts in mind and be in a little bit more proactive understanding the marriage between land use and transportation. Great steps have happened. Nary: Any other comments, Council? Bird: I have none. Turner: My thanks to you staff who have sat through many meetings of our Demographic Committee. They have shown great fortitude. Nary: Did you have any comment or anything? Thank you very much. Item 6. Discussion of Golf Course Amended Ordinance: Nary: If I am looking at this properly, this is just creating an infraction, is that right Mr. Nichols? Nichols: Mr. President, Madame Mayor, members of the Council. There are really two ordinances and you didn't get it on your disc, but you have it on hard copy in front of you. The Penalty Ordinance is one that just makes that golf cart violation just an infraction. The second ordinance, which is the one that you asked us to draft quite some time ago, which really covers two areas and one is addressing the Golf Course trespassing issue that is important to the operator at Cherry Lane where we delineate specific things that are violations, for example, people can't picnic on the course, can't jog across the course. Basically, it limits those who can be on the course at any given time. It's a little stronger than the Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 15 of 22 standard trespassing ordinance in that it allows the course to be able to post notices so that they can educate the folks around the course as to what they should or shouldn't do. The second part of this ordinance has to do with places of operation of golf carts — (Tape turned over) Nichols: -- the lessee of the golf course, we have included language which allows the operator of the course to operate it's equipment on city streets while in transit from the storage equipment area to the golf course because that's where they store a lot of that is right off of Cherry Lane. Then secondly, we have added Meadowlake Village Subdivision, the Touchmark Development as another place where golf carts are allowed. So, that's the focus of this particular draft ordinance. We wanted to cover those things with you. The one that was in your packet was a simple amendment, which we had put forth a while back that had not yet come forward to you and we left it as a stand-alone because it's in a separate title. Nary: Council, any questions on either the one that is on the disc or the hard copy one that is before us, or do you need more time to review that? Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: Probably would like just a little more time, but I do have a question of the Chief. Chief, do you think that the cart portion of the ordinance is encompassing enough to make that a standard for the whole city? Musser: Mr. President, members of the Council and Councilman Wardle in particular in regards to where we are at we initially had left it just within the square mile section of the municipal golf course, there is the need to be able to extend over to where the maintenance buildings currently are outside of that bubble, but moving into the metal lake area, I wasn't aware that initially that when they were putting that together that with the nature of the Senior Center located up there and the type of usage and their small little executive course that they have that they were really leaning towards doing that within that subdivision as well. I think this gives us a good blend citywide and still keeps it isolated to specific golf course areas and in particular with the addition of Meadowlake Village that we can accommodate ourselves to that. We are not looking to see golf carts driven throughout the city, but be allowed just within the confines of these specific areas and of course to also allow for the folks that are maintaining the golf course right now to get from those maintenance sheds across where before technically they were in violation. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 16 of 22 Nary: Chief do you think on golf cart issue, the Meadowlake Village that the ordinance should require some signage. I mean those are public roadways in there with vehicles that are accessing — isn't there the access to that Montvue that comes out of that? Musser: Councilman Nary, I believe there is an access there that is present and that is something that we probably have to look at as having signage for just within the confines of that subdivision because obviously Montvue is outside as is the St. Luke's Campus itself, however, within St. Luke's they already currently operate golf carts as a matter of being able to transport patients to and from, but it's a private property situation as opposed to the public street. But, I would agree signage would probably be a key issue at this point for us within Meadowlake. Nary: It might be best to have something in the ordinance that requires that they be signed at the access points or something like that if they are going to allow that. I mean, I don't know if they need ACHD's approval as well since it will probably be in the public right of way, but I am just afraid of people turning their cars in there not realizing that there is golf carts that are going to be in the road way and not noticing that they are there. Musser: I believe that probably would be a good point. We do have signage to warn off golf carts, currently up at the Cherry Lane Golf Course for where there are crossings within a roadway. There are signs there so noting, so it might be a very applicable to go ahead and make sure that we had warning signs listed within the Meadowlake Village as well. I can follow up on that with ACHD if you would like. Nichols: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Nichols. Nichols: Point out the follow up with the Chiefs comments that there isn't anything in the current ordinance that requires the signage, but that's just something that was done, so I don't know that the ordinance needs to be amended. Secondly, I should give credit to the Meadowlake Village part of this to Allison Tate, who read the Statesman article in which the operators of that development indicated that they were going to encourage seniors to use golf carts within the development in lieu of their cars and it was Allison that brought that to our attention to where we added this into the draft. Siddoway: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Siddoway. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 17 of 22 Siddoway: I am not sure how this affects the discussion, but the only public streets in Touchmark run from Franklin Road to the second roundabout on Touchmark Way that includes the stub that goes over to Montvue, but from the second roundabout beyond around the golf course and everything and all the streets internal are all private streets so they are not public streets in there except for that main collector — I don't know if it's a true collector, but the Touchmark Way that runs from Franklin Road up to the second roundabout, I wouldn't expect to see golf carts beyond that heading out to Franklin. You'd think they would be around from the residential areas or the golf course and all of those streets are private. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess I would be interested to know on enforcements. You know, who is authorized to fine and who enforces this new additions. Nary: Chief, Mr. Nichols? Nichols: Madame Mayor, members of the Council as I understand it, one of the things — let's address the trespassing first. One of the problems, the operator the golf course has had is people have basically said this is a city owned piece of property that I can jog across here if I want to and they have had issues with that. So, one of the problems of the existing trespassing ordinance or maybe you call it a problem or maybe not is that they are not trespassing until you tell them to leave and they refuse to do so. So, you have an enforcement problem because if the operator says hey you are not allowed to be here and they leave, but then you have got to catch them every time. Whereas, this contemplates is notice that the only people that are allowed to be on the golf cart course are these certain categories and I think what the course indicated in previous discussions with the Council was that they would look at signage in places where the joggers are running across or kids are trespassing on their way to school or whatever the issues are, so that signs are put up. The neighborhood homeowner's associations are notified — just different things that way. But, it would be up — I mean, either a police officer would have to observe it or the golf course operator would have to observe, call the police, catch the person or know who it was and (inaudible) and complaint as I understand the way the enforcement would occur and Chief can elaborate further on that. Nary: Chief, did you have anything to add to that? Musser: At this point, Council, not much. Our attorney summed it up pretty well, however, on the infraction citation on the basis of a signature by parties from out at the golf course we could issue those out and if they have knowledge of who the people are and are willing to provide the statements it makes it a little bit Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 18 of 22 easier for us to process through on that and we would have to rely upon their participation in order to make this active. So, it would be a shared venture, so to speak in between the Police Department and the golf course in order to do the enforcement, but ultimately it would fall to the Police Department. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I know the Chief and I have had conversations about this, but even though we have been in the process of getting additional staff, we have been short staffed and until we get a volunteer program up and going that they can come out and take some of these complaints and do some follow up at a civilian level. Right now our police officers are the ones who would have to respond and being short staffed, I guess my concern is that we are adding to their plate, which already is full for enforcement that should be dealt with personal responsibility and signage and a notation that proceed at your own risk. Where does the personal responsibility come in? If we had a bunch of police officers out here with nothing better to do, this would be a great pastime. But, I think right now, our police officers have their hands full. Unless we can find a better way to have this enforcement and we have citizens that could go out and take some of these follow up, our citizens citations and all of that this is a lot to ask of our already overburdened Police Department. I would like to see if through education of homeowner's associations and appropriate signage that that attempt is done first and having people assume personal responsibility and a proceed at your own risk type of thing before we add this to our Police Department. Nary: Mr. Wardle, Wardle: Mr. President. Just a comment on the Mayor's comments and I think personal responsibility for obeying the law and obeying rules is certainly the best course of action. But, currently as I understand it our Police Department enforces all of the laws in Meridian and currently if you are on the golf course and you are not doing one of these activities, you are trespassing and that trespassing charge is a misdemeanor charge, which I don't necessarily feel is warranted. I think an infraction is a better course of action and I do agree that enforcement wise we don't need to overburden our department with these infractions, but at the same time we have a duty to uphold the law and I think this makes it easier for the department not to have to rush out when they have something more important to do and can allow us to enforce the law without making it such a crime and reduce that to an infraction. Nary: I guess my concern on a couple of these things is that — the first is this ordinance doesn't incorporate or deal with when the course is not open. It deals with it 24 hours a day. Personally, I don't care if someone walks on that golf course if it's closed. It is the public's ground. There is a vendor to operate a golf Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 19 of 22 course. When it's not being operated, I don't really care if somebody walks across it. I don't care if somebody extends their yard out into it when it's not being operated and this ordinance doesn't incorporate that. I don't want somebody getting cited for walking across the golf course when it's not open. What difference does it make? So, I think that's one flaw that I see in this ordinance. You know, one of the comments that I have heard prior to the meeting from other folks is the concern is that someone is going to get hit. That is their own risk. The Mayor's point is well taken. If they have notice there is a golf course here and they get hit, that's their own risk. It happens to be a golf course that is next to hundreds of houses. It has been there for 25 years. I don't know how many people get hit, but I don't necessarily think that it's probably the best thing to just create different crimes when a crime already exists for it. If it really is a problem with people trespassing, there is a law that says, here is the violation, call the police. If they leave and return, they could be arrested. But, for people walking across it, especially when it's closed, I don't have any reason to want to pass an ordinance to prohibit that. It doesn't make any sense to me. You must want to say something? Link: Madame Mayor, Councilman. Nancy Link, Cherry Lane Recreation, 4200 Talamar Boulevard and my comments about people on the golf course after hours — we don't so much mind people walking out there either just to walk down the side of the golf course, but we also have difficulties with people who allow their children to play in our bunkers as their sand box and we have other people for instance, in the winter when there is snow on the ground who want to cross country ski. We have had snowmobiles on the golf course and we also — I would agree with Mr. Wardle that reducing this from a misdemeanor to an infraction is a better way to go because we don't want to make anybody mad. We don't want to make anyone a criminal, but we do want a way to enforce when someone is overstepping their bounds on the golf course whether it's during working hours or not that there is some alternative that we can use to handle the trespasser and different scenarios come up every single year about who is on there and what are they doing, so for me this is a nice way to go. It also allows us a kind of event so to speak in order to put those signs out there to send out a letter to the homeowners' associations and to notify the people in the area that this is a change, this is what can happen, so please educate your children, educate yourselves about where you should be and what you could be doing out there. We have people who play football. We have people who play volleyball. Nary: But that's my point. When it's not open who cares? So what? Tell me why --? Link: Well, we are open until dark. When they are playing is when we are open. They don't play after dark. We have teenagers. We just had a case of someone who peeled out off of one of the greens that's adjacent to the street and it's a — talked to the resource officers at the high schools it's a coo to drive onto the golf Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 20 of 22 course and peel out of there. Not just ours, other golf courses, too. Eagle Hills has the same problem. Nary: I guess I don't have a problem dealing with damage issues, but in November, if you are not open and there is no snow on the ground and someone walks across it or plays on it— Link: Okay, we are open — Nary: But I am saying, if you are not open and there is no snow on the ground or even if there is and they don't damage anything, tell me why it matters -- Link: Okay. Nary: -- to not allow someone to do that. It is next to houses and that's just the way it is. I guess, I don't see a problem if they don't cause any damage. Link: The damage occurs when the snow — if there is snow on the ground and the snow is compacted and if it's on the fairways there is damage. You will see in the early spring those marks where the snow was compacted and the grass actually dies and it has to re -grow. There is — but on the greens is where the real damage occurs. If we could do something to keep people off of the greens we could compromise on people being on the fairways because the fairway grass is hardier. Where the whoop -to-do's, where people want to play and sled and skate is on the greens. That is a problem. That grass is very delicate and it doesn't take a lot of pressure with that snow packed down it produces a fungus then and kills the grass. Nary: Anyone else? Bird: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: We could sit here all night, I think and argue, but let's send these on forward. Mr. Rountree will be back. I know he has definitely got a view on it, seeing how he lives on the course. I would say we move these forward to a regular meeting and get them passed or not. De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess since Councilman Wardle is doing a presentation next week that I think a couple of these were going to accompany that. I think we need to give this an opportunity for even — since it is a residential golf course that you Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 21 of 22 give notice to the homeowners' associations and I guess it's that same struggle as we are talking about the golf course is how do you get people notified that things are going on? It's not public noticing issue and I have had people that have talked to me of concern and I appreciate, Nancy, your comments on the greens and I don't think there is a lot of people are even cognizant of what all does go on at the golf course that, you know, these are things that need to be discussed and if we could make an effort to notify at least the homeowners' associations in that area that this conversation and this ordinance is being proposed so that they can come and support some of these stories. I know some of the things that do go on as well. But, I think they should be allowed the opportunity to comment and participate in this, too. And that they also know that this (inaudible) a fine rather than a misdemeanor and they can be hauled off to jail. Nary: Madame Mayor maybe we could do something we don't usually do, but we can put this on our regular agenda for first readings rather than to waive the reading rules, put it on for first reading. There are three readings under the State Code you can have before you pass an ordinance. Put it on for first reading — if there is public comment next week, I see our folks in the newspapers here, so there is at least some opportunity for people to know that we are going to be discussing it and if they are here next week, we will hear them; if they come the next week after that we will hear them; if they come the week after that we will hear them. They have an opportunity to come and tell us what they think and we could do it that way. De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess the Clerk's Office from what Mr. Berg had told us was attempting to identify all the homeowner's associations and get notice out that that can move forward as well. Nary: I am sure Ms. Green will take care of that. I am sorry Mr. Wardle you look like you were going to say something. Wardle: Mr. President I was also going to just say that the Clerk's Office has been attempting to notify those and I will certainly check in this week to try and get some public comment back on the ordinance as well as the conversations that we will have next Tuesday. I think it's a great opportunity for people to comment on something that definitely affects what, in this case, is literally their backyard. Nary: Great. So, we will have it on our agenda next week and we have come to the end of this agenda. If there is nothing else, I would take a motion to adjourn. Meridian City Pre -Council Meeting July 20, 2004 Page 22 of 22 Bird: So moved. Wardle: Second. Nary: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn the Pre -Council meeting of July 20th. All those in favor, say aye. ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:10 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: t STJ r4�- Orr 81"TE 81241-el4-- DATE APPROVED