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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2014-09-23 Special Joint Kuna MeetingtO THE B/qOsoq E IDIAN - k�tiA, 1DP� CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL AND CITY OF KUNA CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL JOINT MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:00 p.m. Kuna City Hall Council Chambers 763 W. Avalon St., Kuna, Idaho Roll -Call Attendance David Zaremba Joe Borton Charlie Rountree Keith Bird Genesis Milam Luke Cavener Mayor Tammy de Weerd 1. Discussion Regarding the Area of Impact Boundary Line Between the City of Kuna and the City of Meridian 2. Adjournment Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with City of Kuna —September 23, 2014 - Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become the property of the above referenced entities. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at the City of Meridian at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. i.�'�ip SNE BtRbs pA E IDIA-- '�rA, CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL AND CITY OF KUNA CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL JOINT MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:00 p.m. Kuna City Hall Council Chambers 763 W. Avalon St., Kuna, Idaho \ VWV-N&,- ►4oa1c Gr2q Qe\So'n, _aj __�On2S (CC—) , T)\CIN CArdOZQ�CGJ n A C Roll -Call Attendance ao�✓ V- David Zaremba ><�-Joe Borton 3' 0(v P,A5 p 3 p ,4- Charlie Rountree �z Keith Bird �c Genesis Milam >- Luke Cavener rs/_ Mayor Tammy de Weerd 1. Discussion Regarding the Area of Impact Boundary Line Between the City of Kuna and the City of Meridian _ 7 \SCQS S l lD r\ 2. Adjournment ` C rr) r_,jCl_rr� � � 0 ary , "_� 0,-C(-� _� o ncs , Cai -,V-,b 14�- ]F�-c&ny- C C_ CV) 0•.� C+ r_�c'n Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with City of Kuna —September 23, 2014 - Page 1 of 1 �.- All materials presented at public meetings shall become the property of the above referenced entities. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at the City of Meridian at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. A 0114E8i0,0 q 9 /11�:��FF CITY OF KUNA AND CITY OF MERIDIAN JOINT MEETING AGENDA TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2014 at 3:00 P.M. Kuna City Hall Council Chamber, 763 W. Avalon Street, Kuna, Idaho 3:00 P.M. 1. Call to Order and Roll Call 2. Discussion regarding the area of impact boundary line between the City of Kuna and City of Meridian 3. Adjournment Page 1 of 1 City of Kuna Joint Meeting — September 23, 2014 If you need special assistance to participate in this meeting, please contact the City Clerk at 922-5546 at least forty- eight (48) hours prior to the meeting to allow the City to make reasonable arrangements to ensure accessibility to this meeting. Meridian City Council - Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014. A joint meeting of the Meridian City Council and the Kuna City Council was called to order at 3.00 p.m., Tuesday, September 23, 2014, by Kuna Mayor W. Greg Nelson. Meridian Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Charlie Rountree, David Zaremba Joe Borton, Genesis Milam and Luke Cavener. Kuna Members Present: Mayor W. Greg Nelson, Richard Cardoza, Briana Buban- Vander Haar, Joe Stear and Pat Jones. Roll -call Attendance: Roll call. X David Zaremba X Charlie Rountree X_ Genesis Milam X Joe Borton X Keith Bird X Lucas Cavener X Mayor Tammy de Weerd Bingham: City of Kuna and City of Meridian Joint Meeting Agenda, Tuesday, September 23rd, 2014. Item 1: Discussion Regarding the Area of Impact Boundary Line Between the City of Kuna and the City of Meridian Nelson: Council, it's 3:00 o'clock, so I know that we are all busy people and we'd like to get our meeting going. Welcome to Kuna and we appreciate very much your coming over and we -- the only agenda item we have is to discuss the exact boundaries between us and so I don't believe we have ever met together, so probably it would be kind of -- need to go around the room and see who is here and what you do. I -- some of the council members I know, but some I don't. So, I will start off and we will just go around this way. I'm Greg Nelson, I'm the mayor. This is my -- end of my second, going on third year and I'm not going to run again in case anyone is interested. But, anyway -- Rountree- Isn't that what you said the last time? Nelson: For 20 years I have said that. Zaremba: Don't we all say that. Nelson: Anyway, I live here in town and I'm retired. So, welcome to our community. Jones: My name the Pat Jones. I'm -- I was newly elected this year, so this is my first chance at all this. I currently work for Les Schwab in Meridian and just looking forward to serving my city. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 2 of 32 Cardoza: Rich Cardoza and I have been on the council I think ten years. Tenth year, I believe. Milam: Genesis Milam. Have been council member -- this is my first year. I'm a landlord extraordinaire in my free time. Cavener: I'm Luke Cavener. I was also elected to the Meridian city council last November. I also serve as the director of Whole Foods. Bird: Keith Bird. I'm in my 17th year I think on the city council and I have been retired for ten years from the glass business. Rountree: Charlie Rountree, Meridian City Council President, and this is my 15th year. Four more years to go and -- whether I run again or not. Up to my imagination, I guess. I'm retired and, mayor and council, appreciate the opportunity to meet you folks and look forward to the outcome. De Weerd: Mayor Tammy de Weerd. I'm in my 11th year and so I served on city council prior to being mayor. So, appreciate the invitation to come down here and we look forward to the conversation. Zaremba: I'm David Zaremba. I have been on the City Council about seven years -- a little bit longer. Before that I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission for about seven years and I show up in other places as well. I'm currently the executive director of the air quality board and I am currently chairman of the board of Valley Regional Transit and I have my fingers on a lot of stuff that goes and I'm embarrassed that we haven't gotten together before. I'm looking forward to this meeting and maybe having more of them. Nary: I'm Bill Nary. I'm the city attorney and I have been with the city as -- in this position for ten years. Roats: Richard Roats, city attorney. Stear: Joe Stear. I own a machine shop in town. Have been on the fire commission for 18 years and my third year as a council member. Buban-Vonder Haar: Briana Buban-Vonder Haar. I was elected at the same time as (unintelligible) and I have over a year left and I'm an attorney for the Department of Veteran Affairs and I also just finished a year as president of the Kuna Chamber of Commerce. We are hoping to reach out to the Meridian Chamber of Commerce a little bit more this year, too. Nelson: All right. Thank you all. I think it's better to get acquainted and I know that Genesis said that she had done quite a bit of business over here or had a lot of friends Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 3 of 32 or what have you and so it's -- you know, we are only nine miles apart, so I suspect we probably do know quite a few citizens on both sides -- all of us, so, anyway. But it is good to be acquainted. And would you like the audience to be introduced, so we know who is here? A Voice: Sure. Nelson: Okay. Could we -- well, let's start over on this side and just go back and forth, then, over -- wind up over on the other side, okay? Hood: I'm Caleb Hood with the city of Meridian planning. Chatterton: I'm Bruce Chatterton, I'm community development director for Meridian. Simison: Robert Simison. Mayor's office, city of Meridian. Barnes: Bob Barnes (unintelligible). Howell: Wendy Howell, city of Kuna Planning and Zoning. Law: Gordon Law, Kuna city engineer. A Voice: Justin (unintelligible) sitting in for (unintelligible) today. A Voice: Tom (unintelligible). I live in the impact area. Danielson: Brent Danielson and I work for the Ada County Development Services. Behunin: Troy Behunin, Kuna Planning and Zoning Department. Heck: Tim Eck, property owner in the area of impact. Lake: Linda Lake. Property owner. Starks: Ernie Starks. Property owner. Thompson: Frank Thompson, Valleytimes. A Voice: (Unintelligible) Meridian citizen. Nelson: Thank you all. Appreciate it. All right. We will just start this off, then, by maybe a little reiteration of where we have been in meetings before and, you know, one of the things that we have -- we have probably more agreement than we have disagreement as to what we were trying to do in -- in that northern boundary. It wasn't this council that actually enlarged our area and incorporated -- I believe the land they took in was primarily used -- was planning to be used as a storage -- agricultural ground Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 4 of 32 for the new sewer plant and so, then, you had the one subdivision that you were going to service up on Amity and, then, Mr. Eck got involved with his purchases and I think the agreement that we came upon was that we would take care of Mr. Eck's ideas and plans and that was acceptable to Meridian and, then, we tried to go across and hit Highway 69 straight across, then, we tried Amity, then, we came back and I think our dividing line really is Lake Hazel, except for the bubble and I think we kind of agreed on the bubble that would go up to include all of Tim Eck's land and I think that's kind of where we -- we parted ways. So, that was pretty much in agreement and, then, from, then, on there has been different proposals that didn't seem to be very acceptable to all of us, so -- from that point, then, Tammy, if you would like to kind of catch us up on anything I left out and, then, we will start talking about where should this line be or if we really should take care of Tim Eck and do anything else, so -- and Joe -- are you Joe? Borton: Yes. Nelson: Okay. We had the introductions all the way around, so if you would introduce yourself, so that the councils know each other, we would appreciate that. Borton: You bet. I Joe Borton. Elected in November to city council. Served before. And when I'm not on council I have got a law firm in downtown Meridian. Been practicing law for a long time. _ Nelson: Great. Thank you. Borton: Thank you. Nelson: Okay. Tammy. De Weerd: Thank you, mayor. I don't have too much different to report than Mayor Nelson did. We have gotten together a number of times, but the most recent time we had Councilman Stear, as well as Tim Eck involved with conversation and the maps that we all agree on -- Councilman Rountree and I and I think President Cardoza -- Cardoza: (Unintelligible). De Weerd: Yes. Our discussion was really we -- our approved area of impact up to Amity and I think this -- was that map in here? I know -- yeah. It was brought up along the ridge on the Rawson Lateral or Canal to include the area that was already annexed by Kuna that was in our area of impact and it followed the Rawson Lateral to Amity, then, it crossed to where Bear Creek Subdivision was that said they wanted to remain in Meridian's area of impact. So, we have little lines around that subdivision. Took it to Black Cat, down Lake Hazel, and onto the county line. So, our last conversation that where we all left (unintelligible) agreement and -- which addresses Mr. Eck's conversation that part of that -- that meeting and that's -- that's where we are at. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 5 of 32 We have shared that with our Council and I think Meridian is very comfortable with that. Nelson: Okay. Would the council like to speak now -- like -- maybe we could start off with the president of our council and he can kind of give you his ideas on -- on how this ought to be aligned or if that's -- if he's comfortable with what we kind of agreed with. So, Richard. Cardoza: Mayor, I think a couple of the council people weren't there. Is there a chance they might have a couple of those maps to look at? I think the lateral -- the lateral might be throwing them off as to where -- Nelson: Yeah. I didn't come out and look at the maps. I just assumed they would be -- I'm familiar with that, but -- okay. Thank you. Zaremba: I have a spare as well. Those are actually two different ones. Slightly different. Nelson: Okay. Cardoza: I guess looking at this map I do remember us going into discussion of it, mayor. I don't remember -- and I'm sorry to say I don't remember the outcome of what -- when we left. I know you, me, Charlie and Joe and the mayor was there, but thought we left it open to -- and came to a general discussion that day. That is my recollection. I'm sorry, that's -- mayor, I think that we had not come to a decisive decision that day. Whether that's right I don't know. That's -- Nelson: I think what we agreed on was the bubble and where it went up and where it came down at and satisfied Tim Eck and, then, as I remember the Bittercreek Subdivision there was still -- I think we left it that Meridian was going to approach them and see what they really wanted to do. De Weerd: And that's what they have done. Nelson: Yeah. A Voice: (Unintelligible) Black Cat to Ten Mile (unintelligible). De Weerd: That's that little dip down. Yeah. A Voice: Okay. (Unintelligible). Nelson: The proposal is to cut across where we came across different than this were in subsequent meetings. After we had come back and discussed those with our council, so anyway -- Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 6 of 32 Cardoza: So, basically, the (unintelligible) is the pulling from Ten Mile all the way to _ Linder. That is the biggest difference. De Weerd: Well, the difference -- Mr. Mayor. I'm sorry. Nelson: Sure. De Weerd: Really, our line was at Lake Hazel and after meeting with you all, Councilman Rountree and I felt comfortable talking with our council to do our line to address why the annexations that were annexed into our area of impact and, two, to address the relationship and concerns we had with Tim Eck's property. So, this was what we thought was our compromise to -- to give concession to our area of impact (unintelligible) and to hopefully find a resolution to draw a permanent line. Nelson: Okay. And, then, it was shortly after that that we were approached by a number of landowners that -- that would benefit by coming into the Kuna side and gravity flowing to the new sewer plant and so they began kind of a process to see if they could get in adjacent and be annexed in. So, the movement of lines and what have you kind of reflected that -- that approach and so, you know, basically, really where the agreement came was -- was the bubble and I -- we never did really hear what the little subdivision -- if they were approached and what they wanted, because it seems like the last we heard they wanted pressurized irrigation and they wanted -- I think drinking water, because I think -- if I remember right, drinking water into that little subdivision is not of real high quality or has a taste to it or smell to it or something and so we were approached about would we supply water and what have you and we would never agree to that until we finally put this to rest as to what are we going to do and so that's probably what this meeting is about, what are we going to do, so -- okay, Richard. Cardoza: If I could, mayor. So, are you saying that everything -- everybody that has requested annexation is south of Amity at this point? Nelson: Yes. Cardoza: Okay. Nelson: And fairly close to where they would hook onto us to the city limits. So, state law would probably give them the right, once they got adjacent, to request annexation. We had had some discussions on -- you don't have to do that, you know, or could do it or -- I think Meridian had cited that there was some developments up on the north side of theirs where they had refused to annex certain things, because they just weren't ready to do it, so -- De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? You know, it's our -- our practice to work from the inside out and we find better economies of scale with our services that we -- that we are required to provide per the Local Land Use Planning Act, as well as to insure that it doesn't overly burden our existing taxpayers and ratepayers by extending out and losing those Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 7 of 32 efficiencies and so when we look at development we do want to go from the inside out, so that we can have that more compact and our concern was overextending services to where our existing ratepayers would or taxpayers would bear the burden of the city sprawl. So, that -- one of our goals is to come to an agreement to a permanent area of impact, so we can fully plan in our capital improvement plans or if we build certain amenities by substations, parks, and those amenities and we can commit to them when we size our pipes and our utilities that we are sizing them to model what we would serve and not risk losing the efficiencies of those systems, because now we lost another piece of land that we had planned to service and we also are concerned more of our easements that we do annex into our area of impact, it almost puts a roadblock in where we can run our easements for our utilities and, then, we -- it costs more to kind of build around it, because we can't really provide an easement through another city. So, by planning a permanent area of impact will allow us to totally plan to serve those areas and in the most cost efficient way we can. Stear: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. Stear: So, I -- the Kuna impact area and map (unintelligible) when this was drafted. It actually runs along the top of Amity and, then, part way across the bottom and comes down Kuna Road and (unintelligible) I guess the one thing I wanted to at least discuss about that is -- you know, our sewer treatment plant and water facilities aren't really that far from there. We could probably provide services to that area sooner than later, which -- which I kind of think would help promote some commercial growth there and, you know, to be honest with you (unintelligible) commercial growth and so I felt at least -- at least we are running up the discussion of that Highway 69 area there -- you know, I don't know when this map was drawn or -- you know, there was some bad history between Kuna and Meridian a few years ago and we certainly don't want to go there again, but I thought it was certainly worth discussion, so -- De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: Councilman Stear, when we drew red lines and our line has been approved by the county and we did have people that were in attendance at the county planning meeting when -- when it was in front of the commissioners that testified in those areas that they wished to be in Meridian. So, we weren't doing extensive planning exercise that included our presentation from Kuna to really say where do people associate and we have the dots and that dot map really helped become that line was best laid and you can see on the dot map those are associated with Meridian were heavily on the north side of Lake Hazel and those that associated with Kuna were very heavily on the south side. So, that was a real obvious line, which our planning staff was committed to, because we did ask the property owners at that time. We all know how property turns and so we can't afford to do these kind of planning exercises every other year. But Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 8 of 32 that's how we came up with -- with that line and when we went to Ada county _ commission to get our approval for our area impact lines, they felt comfortable with it, as well as those that were in attendance to testify in support of it. Does that help answer your question? Stear: Yeah. I mean I just -- it just looked like we could provide services there sooner than later and in my mind that would help promote commercial development there and probably going to be (unintelligible). I mean that's really why I wanted to bring it up was this -- the type of development. Nelson: Okay. Charlie, you were at all of the meetings and all or -- how are we going to get this resolved so that -- Rountree: Thank you. I don't mind that on my shoulders. Mayor, I think it's -- it's one of those things that it's got to be a give and take. I think, hopefully, we all recognize that it's important for both of us to -- to be able to plan appropriately for the growth of our respective cities and to not utilize public funds that -- in a way that it's either going to be repeated by somebody else or it's going to be done in investments that are going to be made that they are going to be wasted. So, it's important that we -- we reach a consensus on this line and as I explained to you and Rich when we met the first time, this is not a new dance for me. I go back to the city council in the late '90s and having this similar kind of discussion with the city of Boise on our eastern boundary. The end result of that after some litigation is that, you know, common sense prevailed and we just sit down now and, essentially, at the staff level negotiate things within a reasonable distance from that eastern boundary that was established by our area of impact and say, well, yeah, it makes sense that, Boise, you could service that, it's on this side of that canal and it's on that ridge, it makes sense and we have done the same thing to Meridian. I'd like to see the same kind of thing happen here. For reason to prevail. Certainly there is some things that we have already talked about that go beyond the quote, unquote, approved impact area for the city of Meridian and it doesn't make sense to continue that line for obvious reasons. Not just because of annexation, but probably works better to come south and I think we just need to figure out how to -- how to stumble through that area of negotiation and it's not a two mile boundary, like we -- you know, because we can't -- if we are running sewer or water or whatever south and you're running sewer or water at your expense or a developer's expense and we have planned for X number of development and put a property that's going to handle that and it doesn't happen, the idea of bigger is better is not, because a big sewer pipe isn't necessarily good if it's not going to be full of material and it's a big expense for the developers to have to do that as well and I understand your sewer plant operates a little differently than ours in terms of pressurized lines and whatnot. So, there is some differences there. But we need to be able to draw that line. Is it -- is it by property boundaries as it snakes through that southwestern corner of our joint boundaries -- probably. Is it as you identified in your area of impact? Probably not. I don't imagine any of this stuff is going to be straight on. We do think about, well, we have districts that are taxing districts that come both ways. We have Meridian Rural Fire District that kind of goes across the line. We have a Meridian School District that -- though it doesn't Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 9 of 32 really (unintelligible) on you, we have patrons kind of both places. People recognize _ and associate with Meridian and Kuna. So, I think that that perception or condition needs to be taken into consideration that's a common sense approach. We have got recreation districts -- and appears that you are looking at a recreation district. Nelson: Yeah, we are -- you know, we are working on one now. Rountree: And we have a recreation district that encompasses this central area that -- Nelson: You come two miles -- Rountree: -- come to Lake Hazel. So, I think, again, some of those things where there is taxing districts and people are paying for things, there is an expectation that it's in the Meridian area, there is an expectation it's in the Kuna area, we need to, again, recognize that and factor that into it -- into some constant to deal with this. I don't know that based on -- this is the fifth exercise that I have participated in on this very subject and on at least two occasions I have walked away and felt -- feeling comfortable that we have reached some consensus. And the rest of the time we -- yeah, those are pretty good ideas and those are pretty good reasons, we need to think about those, and that's probably a good process, but at some point in time, as the economy gets better and development starts to push all around us, we need to resolve this and that's my goal. I'm sorry, I can't put that on my shoulders to give you the solution, but if you would allow me to do that I will get an pencil out. Nelson: Okay. Thank you very much. All right. Others here around the table that have any comments? Yes. Zaremba: Mr. Mayor, if I may. Just -- I think one of the things that makes this difficult is there is no real apparent dividing point. There is no river that goes between us, there is no big cliff that, okay, it make sense to stay on this side or that side of it. So, I think we are all struggling towards the same goal and the line where ever it ends up is going to be arbitrary. I do like the idea of having our engineers involved and our city staff involved, because there are -- while there aren't big cliffs, there are some regional items and when you're planning sewer and water service -- well, water is under pressure, so that doesn't make much difference. But sewer service. It does make sense to take the terrain into consideration and that may not be a nice, neat line that follows a road or a square mile. The issue that we come across is if -- if we have to divided it up where the roadways are, then, when you consider the source as to gravity flow, which I think we both want, it's the cheapest way to do it, you can cutoff an area that is not serviceable if you have not followed the terrain line and you follow a roadway instead, then, one of the jurisdictions or both end up with these little pieces that we can't serve, because it -- the terrain won't -- and we can't -- we can't run a pipe through your city and (unintelligible) and vice -versa. So, I think there are some engineering considerations that we need to hear about. Councilman Rountree mentioned other taxing districts that it might be helpful to know where their lines are in doing this. But I realize we are all trying to work this out together. It sure would be simpler if there were a river or something, but -- Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 10 of 32 _ De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Councilman Zaremba, that's what we tried to do with the (unintelligible) or the dot map and it was really ask the property owners and that is how we came up with the line that was approved at the county. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: (Unintelligible). Bird: If we can get a dividing line that we both agree on and live with -- we went through this process, we had it all down there, we understand when you put the sewer in you have to got pay for the sewer. All of a sudden the north end became very important to you guys. We had planned. We had lots of meetings. As the -- Mayor Tammy said, most of the people along there wanted to be associated with Meridian at that time. I just -- we can't go on with every project wondering which city is going to service it. So, we have got to -- we have got to get a line down there and be like we did with Boise, staff -- if there is something that comes up staff can work it out. But we have got to live by ourselves. I mean I can see -- personally I can see somebody on the north side of Amity coming to you guys and wanting -- you know, you have got sewer. You want sewer. You got a plant. No plant is efficient if they are only running at ten percent. So, I hope we can get a line that we can both agree on and live with and make sure our staff can live with it. _ Nelson: Well, in that vein I think our staffs have met and, you know, the -- there is different recommendations that has come out of that, but, you know, I guess probably in my mind there is a dividing line and that's the line where it either slopes our way or your way and the canal just happens to sit right on the top of that line and it really is a part of the bubble that's agreed upon and I guess if we follow that to Highway 69, that would be maybe a logical spot, but I don't even know if my council is in agreement with that. Buban-Vonder Haar: Mayor? Nelson: Yes. Buban-Vonder Haar: One thing that I have always mentioned -- I think a reason that we are especially concerned about seeing if we would be able to include the Meridian corridor for Kuna is the -- the huge impact it would have on our annual property tax revenue versus Meridian's. And maybe John can give some additional numbers for me, but the numbers that John put together -- and, Mr. (unintelligible), please correct me if I'm wrong, John, assuming the area that we are talking about, Amity down to Columbia, I believe, with the potential annual revenue loss after build out if it was to Meridian it would -- Kuna's loss would be about 118,000 a year. If it went to Kuna Meridian's loss per year in the property tax would be about 134 -- 134,000. But the percentage of property tax levy that Kuna would be missing out on is almost seven percent, whereas for Meridian it's .61 percent. So, it's just such a massive difference from the property tax standpoint and it's likely predominately commercial use, which Kuna right now has Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 11 of 32 an 80-20 split, residential -commercial. So, it's just really hard for us to be able to do much of anything in terms of, you know, wanting to try to do like a rec center type thing and just -- the taxes disproportionately impact our residents and so to the extent we have the ability to grab a little bit of area that we know is going to be commercial build out, I think it would be a huge boost to our economic development and our ability to include that area. Zaremba: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. Zaremba: That's a very good point and I like that. The one comment I would make is that with an expanded area, although that would mean some nice income to Kuna, it also means some more expenses. You need to expand your police force. You need to expand -- or at least plan for fire service in that area and the expenses to go along with the income -- no city actually makes money. You don't. We don't. And that's why we are attracted to having commercial services balanced with the residential services and it appears you are all thinking the same way. That's a good way to think. But I just wanted to say that's not all income, because you would need to plan on having a fire station in that area or expanded police services and maybe even more parks than you in your system. So, it's nice to have the income, but it comes with a cost as well. Nelson: Sure. Other comments? We do have a number of people in the audience that _ are in this that we are discussing between Meridian and Kuna. It's -- pretty intent on that they would like to come into our city, you know, and through the years there will be different pressures that will be on -- to go one way or go the other, depending on who has the facilities, who could take of them, all this and that. So, it's -- you know, my family and -- well, at least my sister went to school from -- and that was on Amity at McDermott and our family farm was always tied to Kuna. Not that that doesn't make a difference about, you know, some of the other people that may have ties to Meridian, but, you know, there is -- Meridian recreation district and their kids wanting to go swimming, that would swerve a number of votes, too, you know, because that was in the Kuna School District. Still is. We have to -- in the recreation district we are putting together now we have to cut your recreation district out of our school district, because that's -- we are aiming for a swimming pool, YMCA, some of the -- some of the things that all the other kids in the valley have. So, you're right, we do have -- and it's kind of like when the guy from Boise fell off the -- the ledge down there in the canyon, you know, we had Kuna there, we had Boise there, we had -- you know, we are used to helping each other a lot more now than maybe we were before. So, anyway, it saved that man's life and that would have never happened before, you know, because there isn't anybody that's got all the equipment that -- but jointly, the three or four towns got involved do have. And so it's a little different time now. But it would still make sense, I would think, to follow the crest of that hill and take that that naturally drain toward the Kuna sewer -- either the Kuna district and, then, the drain toward Meridian. Even though you aren't going to be out there for, what, 20 years? There was some people that approached you that said you were using kind of the 20 year deal and that you Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 12 of 32 wouldn't have service there for 20 years. But, nonetheless, would we be willing to just come down to the point if Meridian was willing to do that and go to the highway? It would be another little chunk there on the bubble and, then, not go any further than -- Lake Hazel the rest of the way would be in Meridian and this way the mile between Black Cat and McDermott would all be to Meridian. So, it would -- it would be -- recognizing that this will take care of the two vet properties and that would be about it, with the exception of making some sense out of the crest of the hill. Buban-Vonder Haar: It's my understanding that this slopes to Kuna from our -- Nelson: Yes. Yeah. But see, you know, that would be going quite further than -- so if we broke it off -- Buban-Vonder Haar: Well, at this point -- I mean it's -- Nelson: Yeah. Buban-Vonder Haar: It's Amity. Nelson: Yeah. It's Amity. It's the bubble that we kind of agreed upon and it goes over to here, it comes down, and whereas if we would just take it to there, then, all of this would drain. And I don't know if it includes these properties that are here, the site -- this paper. But they are between Lake Hazel and Amity. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: To me planning the city is more than just sewer and (unintelligible) our express concern is fire service and we have the agreement with the rural fire district that serves their district line, which goes down to Lake Hazel. Anything above that, if Kuna annexes above Lake Hazel line, we have to provide service to it and we do not have a plan for a station in that area, which means -- and I know that Councilman (unintelligible) wearing the dual hats, would be delayed, I do not know that we will sign we believe serving south of Lake Hazel as well, being a closer one with our -- our south substation. That is a concern, because that takes resources out of the -- the area that we serve and so that is just one example of the additional services outside of the sewer that is a concern, a growing and urban area between our two cities, because there will be no association with roads in the middle of our two cities of who they belong to and that is -- that is also a concern. We know that -- or likely are they really going to drive south to get their services in Kuna? I think they are not. I think they will go north to get their services out of Meridian and, again, that was the conversation we had during these planning exercises. Where is that obvious line of where people feel that association, so that as you build your community and you build that sense of place, that those people will feel like they belong in that city and not just an urban area in between two cities. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 13 of 32 Rountree: Joe, did -- did your fire commissioners have a discussion of -- of this whole concept? Stear: Well, where the fire district isn't part of the city, I don't believe that our boundaries would change. The city would go and the fire district wouldn't change the boundary. Our boundary is what it is and Meridian's is what it is. I mean in the future I'm not -- if Meridian annexes their city out to this point, then, I suppose maybe that would be something that would (unintelligible) citywise, since they had a city (unintelligible). Kuna's is all rural fire district, so (unintelligible) the city to change boundaries when that happens. Rountree: Good. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: When a city annexes, if you have a fire service within your city services, that boundary changes. So, if we were to annex into your area of impact south of Lake Hazel, it would -- that land would now be served by the Meridian Fire District. It would change their district lines, which is what is essentially happening in the north part of our community. As we annex and if it's in Eagle Fire District's area or it's not in their district, but if it's in the city of Eagle's area of impact, it would now be served by the Meridian Fire Department. That's just -- A Voice: Because it's a city -- De Weerd: Uh-huh. But the Meridian Fire Department will serve the area north of Lake Hazel regardless if we annex in that area or not, because that is part of the -- the rural district line. Those don't change. Nelson: Is there a difference between Meridian rural and Meridian city? Bird: Yes. The rural is like (unintelligible) they have their taxing entity -- Nelson: Yeah. Bird: -- and they cover anything that is in their district that isn't within the city of Meridian. They have got their own -- De Weerd: They contract with us. Bird: And they have -- we have an MOU with them and we do their fire for them and they pay us so much and it's based on a population percentage. You know, back in the old days it was 80-20 for rural and now it's down -- I think they are 13 percent now. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 14 of 32 Nelson: Yeah. Ours is all encompassing. Bird: And you guys are (unintelligible). Nelson: But we have, you know, a library district that it would be very critical, too, you know, and you folks probably do, too, so -- De Weerd: And I think that (unintelligible). Nelson: Luke. Cavener: If I may. I appreciate your comments. You speak with such passion for your community. I assume all of you ran for city office because you love Kuna. Meridian is pretty good, too, but you love Kuna. And we love Meridian. It's pretty good, too. You mentioned comments about your family farm and I guess these comments -- I'm not smart enough to be a planning engineer, I'm, not eloquent enough to be an attorney, I'm sure this (unintelligible) and the comment you had about your family farm and if you -- if you woke up and you identified with Kuna and you found -- woke up one day to find out that farm is in Meridian, it would probably agitate you and I think that, you know, my opinion is is that when we did this dot survey our residents, your residents, that this is who we identify with. This is who we are -- we believe we are Kuna, we believe we are Meridian. And I think that while we can talk about tax dollars, we can talk about fire •.. service, we also need to take into account what our future residents are saying and who they identify with and just like I don't think you would ever feel good about waking up and saying, again, Meridian is okay, but you identify with Kuna, that we wouldn't want Meridian people that identify with Meridian to just wake up and say, oh, now I found out that I belong to the city of Kuna and all these other issues are important, but I also think -- I'd encourage you to take into account what our residents have said and who they align with and who they identify with. I think that's important. Nelson: Well, you know, we thought we knew until we built the sewer plant and then -- mean the overriding I guess position of those people that we -- if I were to get into the Kuna side, then, I could develop for one 25th of what I could on the other side, because I have to take my sewer so long and I have to pay for that, if I can get it in a whole lot cheaper I'd much rather be closer to that plant and that seems that changed a lot of ideas, because the sewer system coming in changed, you know, and -- you know. agree with Mayor Tammy that there is a lot more than just sewer, but when you look at the overall cost of development, if you can get close to a sewer plant it's going to sure save you a bunch of money. So, I think that has changed quite a bit of attitude at least between the Lake Hazel and Amity area, because it's so close, so -- De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? In looking at this I guess that is -- that's the crux of our concern. When Meridian built its sewer treatment plant I believe that Councilman Rountree was on council -- Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 15 of 32 Rountree: No. But I was on council when that first major addition (unintelligible). De Weerd: Our treatment plant was -- was outside of our city core, our city limits, and the city fathers at that time really made a commitment to -- to growing from the inside out, because they knew that it's the right thing to do with -- for the taxpayers, because of the exigencies and if we just grew around the sewer treatment plant there would be a disconnect between where our community city boundaries were at that time and even though we didn't shoe string annex and create (unintelligible) around there, it wasn't the right thing to do and you can still see it today. Our sewer treatment plant is still on the fringe of our community. We are starting to now grow in that area, but it's been over a decade that it took for us to get out there. By growing from the inside out it has allowed us to find -- there are economies of scale with our police, our fire, our parks and they make sure that our taxes are kept in line as far as possible. Our concern certainly is to be -- we know the price of land is cheaper on our fringes, because it is the furthest from where services are and cities do like growth from the inside out. So, I guess this is really a question to you and your council as to do you want to grow as new city between our two cities that may or may not feel a connection to the city that serves them and -- and is it really -- the driving decisions are going to be growing closest to your sewer treatment plant or closest to your city limits. Nelson: Well, we are open to all kinds of suggestions, so just feel free to jump right in here. �. A Voice: Mr. Mayor, I guess our problem with that is our sewer treatment plant is there. So, you know, it makes sense to grow those lines from direction this way. I don't think that we are actually going to end up building a city between cities. I think it's just that development is going to come and work this way. I mean it's already come down Ten Mile Road out, but this over there has got to get this way. So, infrastructure wise, which is normally where do you want to build from the center out, is actually out there to begin with and -- and I don't see that we are building a city between cities. I mean that area there is really not that much further away from where The Village is from Meridian. That's a city between cities. I mean it's just -- it's our situation. It's where we have -- we have to go where we have to go and I mean that's kind of -- the sewer plant building this way is what we have to do. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? If that was true I would -- I would fully support you building this way, but you want to build more. A Voice: Well, over this way. We are just potentially there is all. That's why I asked that question. But I mean it's -- if there is potential for commercial growth and development because of the location of that sewer plant, I'd like to see that happen. Now, I'm not saying I'm opposed to anything here, I just wanted to have that discussion. But I certainly don't want to butt heads with Meridian, because I think we are good neighbors and we will stay that way, so -- but it's, obviously, always worth asking. If you don't ask you won't get anything, so -- so I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud. Although I may look like a stick in the mud. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 16 of 32 De Weerd: Well, we might all. A Voice: Yeah. Buban-Vonder Haar: To (unintelligible) a little bit, you know, we have been making strides with our commercial development in getting Ridley's and -- or getting McDonald's over here and there is potentially like a hotel chain that's interested in building here. But a lot of these things are -- and I have heard from some specific businesses that there -- there is a residency number has to be hit or there has to be a certain number of households before it. So, you know, for me if our current sewer treatment plant can service some additional development that is pretty much already contiguous to existing city limits and if that helps us stimulate some more of the commercial growth that we so desperately need, then, I'm all for it and I do think to be sending up more commercial options, that there is probably a 50-50 chance of people going up or down in terms of where they -- where they go to get their groceries or their -- whatever they might need. I think right now people go north because there is more stuff there. But the more -- the more goods and services we can provide in Kuna I think more likely people would be to maybe come more into Kuna and, then, maybe more identify with Kuna, because they are in here more than they are (unintelligible). Nelson: Okay. We have been discussing what we already knew for about -- and so are there any -- are there any things that we have not discussed that we need to hear? One of the things that we felt just into this that if we took care of Tim Eck and just left everything else the way it is, that would be about all we really had to do, because the -- we had made a commitment that we would protect that property and if you have hit that little subdivision and they want to stay out, that's fine with us. We haven't been out there recruiting. So, anyway, that was one of the things we wanted to propose, but what if we just take the bubble that includes, you know, the land that we annexed by councils before this and Tim Eck's purchases of land there and just define the bubble and just left everything else the way these maps are. We could probably live with that until a new mayor came aboard or something started happening up there where everybody wanted a change. A Voice: (Unintelligible). Nelson: Pardon? (Unintelligible). De Weerd: The mayor's seat. That's why he announced that at the beginning. Nelson: Yes, Richard. Cardoza: As I hear the other council talk I think they are placing a lot of emphasis on Meridian Highway or Highway 69. 1 look at Meridian and I look at the substantial growth Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 17 of 32 laid out on Eagle Road, Ten Mile, Fairview, Overland, it's like -- I have had six children. Trying to keep each one of them on an equal status is very hard to do as a parent. We are asking Meridian to give us a little more commercial to give us a tax base. Meridian has given me the impression that they are not happy with all the commercial growth they have got. They talk about the (unintelligible) survey they had -- I believe that was about ten years ago, wasn't it, Tammy? Simison: 2007. De Weerd: 2007. Cardoza: What year? Simison: 2007. Cardoza: 2007. So, seven years ago. It's ironic, because everything I read, the average homeowner changes homes about every seven years. So, in using that as an argument that most people want to live in Meridian and it's seven been years when most of those houses have changed hands, I don't think it holds a lot of argument or substantiation in my mind that every seven years that a survey -- but I understand where Meridian is coming from. Seven years is nothing in a planning stage, so to use that as an argument that everybody wants to stay in Meridian, I'm not totally satisfied that is true. That the people in that area are not looking more to Kuna at this time, which is seven years later. So, I'm not sure that the council is comfortable in giving up that mile along -- A Voice: Highway 69. Cardoza: I hear two of being for. I haven't heard the path lines, but it seems like we are not asking that much compared to what Meridian has already in commercial status, so -- Bird: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. Bird: I agree that changing houses probably every seven years if you're in a subdivision. But we are talking about ground out here that's -- people have got 20, 40 acres and I understand there is probably a lot of them that have changed their minds now, because developers have come to them and said we can -- we can give you a lot more money than you can make farming and the sewer is there, so they are going to -- the developer is going to go there. But I think there is -- I think there is a natural cut there, because across from that -- well, a quarter of a mile you have Greenfields where that ditch is and come across there, there is a ridge that's the side of it flows to Meridian, south flows to you and that's a pretty good elevation ridge across there. So, that -- I know you guys would like that extra for commercial, but from what I see driving over here numerous times I think you're getting Ten Mile prepared for commercial. It Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 18 of 32 looks like that's going to be an entryway into your city. So, I just -- my main thing is let's get something done, so that we are not -- you know, we are not having Meridian developing to your impact and you developing in our ours. We got to be able to plan. Nelson: Okay. Thanks, Keith. I think -- let's -- Pat, you have not said anything. Are your -- I hope you're not being -- being held quiet because you work in Meridian. Jones: No, I'm not. I guess we see both sides. Meridian is my livelihood, I will give you that. Nelson: That is important. Jones: Yeah. You know, obviously, Kuna is my number one. You know, I see both sides. I would -- I would like to see what the slope is that we have all been talking about. That lateral is in -- you know, I definitely want to see more growth. My concern that -- and I don't know -- I mean assuming, from what I'm hearing, is that that bubble that's above Lake Hazel is the bubble that was agreed upon in the previous meetings; is that what -- or tentatively, whatever. If we were to have to stay with that bubble, the concern I have is the chunk over there on the corner of Lake Hazel and Meridian Road that seems to be put into Meridian's impact and kept out of our impact. I would like to see that be part of Kuna if it turns out that we don't move to Amity. I just -- I think that that whole commercial growth for that corner has been put into Meridian and -- I mean I think I would like to see that part of the bargaining, if you want to call it that, if it turns out to be that. I just -- it just -- that little section there just seems kind of weird that it's extended to the south of Lake Hazel and west of Meridian Road could be included in Meridian. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: And it does seem (unintelligible) if this -- this landowner testifies vehemently at our city council meeting, as well as at the county meeting to be there. So, that's why it has that little dip. Yeah, it's not a typical -- it would be like the dip for Bear Creek Subdivision. It's just someone that was at every single planning meeting and every single public hearing that wanted to make sure that happened and that is -- that is why it -- and I can't say seven years later that it's still that way. We see that in road planning; right? That when we did the split corridor that diverted that one way through -- so it wasn't through our downtown, when that was planned and all the public hearings were had, it was seven years before the road was built. By then you had people going, what, we never approved that. Well, it takes that long to even get a plan in place and the right of way and all of that. So, you know, in planning years seven years is nothing and things will change. But our hope is that we can find a permanent line that we can start committing our capital improvement plan to, committing our service plans to, so that we can make sure that over time when we go to that area we can give those new citizens into our community, whether they are roof tops or commercial areas, the same level of Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 19 of 32 service that we provide our current residents and -- and that's really when Ada county commissioners tried to pull all the cities together and develop those -- those permanent areas of impact, it was so that every city could start their long term planning to insure levels of service and economies of scale for our taxpayers. Nelson: Okay. The -- I think that probably it's about time that we -- we decide, you know, what we can live with and what we can't. So, I guess we could take it to the intersection. Would we be willing to -- to drop off the Amity intersection if they are willing to drop off the Lake Hazel intersection? Would that be a line that anybody would like to consider? Buban-Vonder Haar: We are talking about drawing the line on Meridian Road or -- Nelson: Yeah. We were talking about coming across on that -- what makes sense to us would be that two and a half -- because that's on the high line and, then, it would come up from Lake Hazel up about a quarter mile up to Kuna Road. Buban-Vonder Haar: Yeah. I was just asking if it would be right on Meridian Road. Nelson: Yes. Buban-Vonder Haar: (Unintelligible). (General simultaneous taking.) De Weerd: I would suggest that we take a recess. Nelson: All right. Let's take a five minute recess and you guys can kind of huddle and we will huddle. (Recess.) Nelson: One of the things that we have learned -- there is a lot of people that came here that really would like to testify, but in -- you know, really they are people that are on this side of Amity clear to Black Cat that want to come into the Kuna thing and, you know, it's driven by not only -- I was going to say (unintelligible), but that's not right. The finances and, you know, what -- what gain it would be to be there and so, you know -- and it's all along and it's clear up to the Amity-69 intersection. So, you know, maybe it's best just to do what we agreed upon and leave everything else alone at this point and I -- at some point in the future there get together and try to iron out the rest, because there is -- there is people on Amity going out to past Black Cat or to Black Cat that want also to take advantage and I don't blame them. If you have the sewer plant, we would have loads of people on this side trying to get into it, you know, because I don't really think that the way things have picked up out here that we are going into another recession, at least I hope not , so -- and, you know, we can pick up any paper and see what you guys are doing. Not so much this way, but the other way. So, unless you Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 20 of 32 have some kind of big offer -- I haven't heard any of my council wanting to -- to drop clear back to Lake Hazel on the highway. So, what have you heard, Tammy? You guys all huddle over there. De Weerd: Well, I left the room, so -- I talked to the residents and the ones I talked to were already in the area that we drew in -- that we conceded to -- so, I think they felt comfortable that at least they wanted (unintelligible). So, anyway, I tried to talk to your public. Nelson: This is the affidavits that was turned into us tonight, so -- De Weerd: Council, just -- if we could just -- we would love to leave this meeting with some kind of agreement and if it's to keep it where we have it, is fine, but, you know, council looked at the Rawson Lateral, from where it hits Meridian Road and striking that to Linder, go up to Amity or Linder and all the way to McDermott and I will do the K-Mart special. That offer is good for the next ten minutes. Nelson: Did you every get that -- well, we were planning on building the mayor's mansion on Victory. De Weerd: Well, then, it's going to be in Meridian and (unintelligible). (General simultaneous discussion.) Nelson: Would you re -- we need to follow that again. Bird: Just south of Greenfield. (Unintelligible). De Weerd: (Unintelligible) the Rawson to where it meets Amity. Bird: Where it meets Amity and, then, go down -- De Weerd: And, then, clear down to the county line. Bird: To McDermott. A Voice: So, down Amity to McDermott -- De Weerd: So, just follow that water line where -- until it hits and, then, down to Black -- or down Amity to McDermott. A Voice: That would include all of these and I would include that corner. Yeah. But would we go this way? Nelson: Okay. Then coming east what was your -- from where it crosses Amity, what -- just to follow the red line? Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 21 of 32 De Weerd: Yes. Bird: And, then, follow that -- Nelson: To Lake Lowell? Bird: To where the lateral goes. Nelson: Okay. So, just follow the lateral all the way to the highway? Bird: Isn't that the lateral that goes up there just east of Greenfield's place or -- isn't that the one that comes off of Meridian Road? Nelson: Yeah. (General simultaneous discussion.) Nelson: We have a proposal coming from Joe that might be acceptable. (General simultaneous discussion.) Nelson: What Joe is proposing is a line there and a line there and that is Kuna, that's Meridian, and this in between annex where ever they want. Yeah. Here. Okay. (General simultaneous discussion.) Nelson: Okay. Are you ready? Stear: Yeah. Nelson: All right. Joe has a proposal for you to consider. Stear: So, since we don't know exactly what everybody in that mile wants to do, what if Kuna's line could just be Lake Hazel and Meridian's line could be Amity and, then, it would be first come first serve whoever wants to annex in to whatever. A Voice: Well, I mean we have got to come up with a plan, so that's -- that leaves them mine. Cardoza: I think the problem you will have is that (unintelligible) will have sewer -- sewer line from each city going crisscross there. Bird: Yeah. Cardoza: Water lines crisscrossing. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 22 of 32 Bird: Water lines. Cardoza: I think that's what Keith is talking about on planning. It might get us away from the table until the first time somebody wants to put in a sewer line or a water line. Bird: Did you look at ours, Joe? Stear: Yeah. Bird: I mean off the original deal -- our original impact area, we are given up two and a half square miles -- or more than that, actually. We are giving up almost three miles. But that -- that lateral across there is a natural flow -- to the south is for you guys and know you have to have your lines pressurized whether -- whatever. But we don't and it's a natural flow to the north for us. I think we both are giving and taking on this. I don't know why we can't agree upon this and accept it and, then, we can plan on -- we can have our planning for our utilities and for our planning staff and everything to do stuff and I realize that you guys want more commercial in and stuff and, you know, we are giving -- we -- on our plan we are giving you the corner down there at Lake Hazel and Meridian Road, which is a fine deal. I think Deer Flat is where you went with Ridley's and all them, isn't it? Nelson: Deer Flat. Yes. Bird: So, you're not that far off. And you got all of Ten Mile, which like I'd say looks like is going to be a good entry for Kuna. I -- we got -- we are -- on the north side of Meridian Road and Amity we have got -- it isn't a signed DA, but we have had -- there is a DA out for that whole thing down to Meridian Heights. A Voice: So, does this line go down to Lake Hazel and, then, over? Bird: It goes up from east of -- on Amity east of Greenfield's there where it crosses and, then, it just follows the lateral down to Meridian Road and that's your natural flow and for us we want natural flow, because we don't have to pressurize. A Voice: And, then, it drops down Meridian Road and then -- Bird: If you would go back to the old -- we are not on the old deals. Rountree: The original (unintelligible). Bird: Just go down. We are not -- and you can have the corner -- the southwest corner of Lake Hazel -- Lake Hazel and Meridian Road. A Voice: So, then, is Lake Hazel, then, the dividing place where it goes east? Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 23 of 32 Bird: No. We go down -- we go down and there is a little corner down there on the corner of Columbia that you guys go over and, then, we -- then we go east on Columbia and, then, we drop down I would say a half a mile and go across over to Cloverdale. Or a quarter mile west of Cloverdale. A Voice: So, all the way down Meridian Highway (unintelligible). Bird: Yeah. And, then, out when we go between Eagle and Locust Grove we drop down another half a mile and go over to Cloverdale there. Buban-Vonder Haar: If (unintelligible) going along the lateral (unintelligible) why does it stop at Meridian Road, instead of (unintelligible) on the lateral? Bird: Well, we fall back the other way, which we have got -- we have got sewers down there that will pick it up on Victory. It will actually -- the east of -- of Meridian Road will flow north and this will flow to the northwest towards McDermott. Jones: Which way does the southeast corner flow? Does anybody know? Bird: The southeast corner of what? Jones: Of Meridian and Lake Hazel. Bird: Meridian and Lake Hazel? Let me get there. Oh, the southeast? It flows north. It's part of -- it's part of that ground that goes up where the old -- it flows towards the lateral. Jones: So, it flows over the -- Bird: The lateral don't go through. Jones: I'm talking this corner right here. Bird: Okay. The lateral -- Jones: That corner right there, where does that -- which way would that flow? Because I would think that would flow towards Kuna. Bird: It flows north. De Weerd: And that's where we didn't -- Bird: It flows north. Jones: No. I'm saying I -- Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 24 of 32 Bird: And this is ours and, then, it doesn't -- Tom just said it (unintelligible). It does flows north, Pat. I don't -- Jones: No. I mean, obviously, I'm not -- Bird: I was just looking at the map and it shows all that stuff flowing north towards our -- Victory and I know we have got our sewer deal that runs down Meridian Road out that way to pick up the -- Jones: No. I was just -- just questioning the -- my interpretation. Bird: I don't think there was ever a question -- Jones: (Unintelligible). Bird: The land -- we haven't questioned the boundary on the east side of Meridian to my knowledge. We have never had any -- you guys -- I don't know if you're new sewer plant sewers any of your property to the south of our line there or you go back to the old plant or if the old plant is even working. I don't know. I think it is, isn't it? Jones: I don't know. Bird: Is the old plant still in service? That's what I thought. So, that sewers back to your old plant, don't it, mayor? On that east side of -- Nelson: On the east side of Kuna, yeah. Bird: On the east side of Meridian Road it has to go back to the old, so the new is not in. So, we are not taking anything that can sewer to your new without a lot of lift stations and stuff, like even the deal. I just -- I wish -- I hope we can decide today, so that we know how we can plan and -- for all of our future planning and stuff tonight. While I -- while I don't think we are being unfair, because we did have a -- we did have an impact area drawn and a line when you built your sewer, I think that -- I think this is fair for both cities to meet this way, so their growth is (unintelligible). Nelson: Is Wendy still here? Howell: Yes, sir. Nelson: Wendy, would you come over here and look at this map and tell me that their lines on the map they gave us -- if our lines match when we get down to Lake Hazel? (General simultaneous discussion.) Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 25 of 32 Cardoza: If I may question -- we already have commitments (unintelligible) lateral on the corner of (unintelligible) west along Amity and Meridian Heights. Bird: Have you already approved the -- Cardoza: No, we haven't. But you're asking us to draw a line when we already have people requesting that area to come into Kuna. Now, by state statute if they are already adjoining city property we can annex them and that just opens the door again of you promised not to go across it. Bird: Well, let's put it this way, Richard. If -- we have had some negotiations with Boise on our east side. They have given some, we have given some. When a subdivision comes in so far on ours they -- we have let them go on in and finish out a 20 acres -- or 40 acres. I think even with that, if you will -- if we agree to the in fill like we want to, that's something that can be discussed I would think between us. But we -- I mean we have got -- we have got commitments with a DA -- not signed now -- to -- on the northwest corner and, of course, once that goes, then, right across the road is going to go and we are going to have -- we are going to have -- and it's natural for us to sewer that and our sewer right now is about to that property -- that north property line I think, isn't it, Tom? Just -- isn't it to the south of Meridian Heights? Nelson: I don't think the service comes across Amity -- across from Meridian? Bird: Not Amity, no. This is north of Victory. This is north of that (unintelligible). A Voice: On Locust Grove. Bird: And we have annexed Lee Centers for (unintelligible). So, I don't -- Richard, don't know what to tell you on that. I just think that -- that -- and I know you guys are -- you get pressure, too, from developers same as we do and a developer or landowner is going to go where they can get the utilities first, let's face the fact. So -- I don't know. -- I don't want to give it up myself. I can't speak for the other six. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yeah. De Weerd: Where -- where is your line? Bird: They are on Amity. Nelson: What we did was go to Amity and then -- then down to Lake Hazel and, then, over -- because we had people wanting to come in. De Weerd: So, we are just talking this area between where the Lawson Lateral or canal �� to Meridian Road. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 26 of 32 Nelson: Right. De Weerd: Just that little piece and, then, everything else -- Howell: Between the Rawson Canal -- like making a triangle, Rawson, Meridian, and Amity? De Weerd: So -- and keeping the same boundary on the east side of Meridian Road. Bird: I was also just told that -- that you guys have got an application in for across on the east side of Meridian Road. Howell: We already -- there already is Kuna property on the east side of Meridian Road. Bird: South of -- south of Amity? Howell: Lake Hazel. South of Lake Hazel. Bird: South of Lake Hazel. On the east side? Yeah. And you have got that from Columbia and that. But you don't -- but -- Zaremba: Columbia is where it is, yeah. Bird: They got this. Nelson: That's east of -- south of Amity, but east of the -- she's saying Lake Hazel. It's actually -- (General simultaneous discussion.) Bird: Mayor, I know this -- the current administration isn't doing this, but are we going to -- are we going to just keep annexing across each other's impact area, regardless of what we say we agree upon? Nelson: I think that's -- I think for me -- Stear: I want to draw a line. That's why I'm being a little particular of where that hard line is. Bird: That's exactly what I mean. Stear: Because I don't want to start jumping into your stuff and I don't want to go on, so -- I mean for that's (unintelligible) should be the end of it and that's -- Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 27 of 32 Bird: We -- you know, that one on the east there that is across Meridian Road, just bag that. We just bought it for another reservoir. So, you know, it's -- I guess the last few years are -- to put it bluntly, neither one of -- we haven't been paying attention to our impact area. So, I'm like you, Joe, I want a hard line and I want us to be committed enough that we can -- if we -- if we are going to take applications outside of our impact area we at least come to you before we do it or you come to us before we do it. At least that -- at least let's agree upon something like that. I don't want to -- if it's not hard lined in the sand I'm not -- I can't agree on it. I mean -- I don't want to make that just catch all. I mean, you know -- that way we -- we have Kuna here and next right across the road we can have Meridian, you know. So, I -- I think that by going what is sewerable -- and I know it's for us, because you pressurize everything -- but I think that that deal that put is -- where we showed is fair. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: We did buy land for a water reservoir south of Amity -- Bird: Right there next to Meridian -- De Weerd: --just right there by Meridian Road where the big -- Nelson: On the east side? De Weerd: -- (unintelligible) are. Bird: Right in back of where you're thinking about annexing. A Voice: Oh. Well, then, give it back to us. Bird: Well, let's see. But -- how much do you want make? Cardoza: After it's developed it -- Bird: I mean we don't -- we don't want to -- we don't want to be out here every year going like this and we need -- we need to get a line drawn that's -- that's fair for both communities. (General simultaneous discussion.) Borton: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 28 of 32 Borton: For what it's worth as to Councilman Stear's comment, if a line is created that we all agree to, I think we all have to take into account, of course, police, fire, open space, water, the existing area of impact that we up to today were planning on, we have to be able to do a couple of things and one is go to the applicant, whether it's a phenomenal commercial applicant north of Amity by Black Cat who wants to come to Kuna, a ready, willing, and able with a phenomenal project, for Kuna to be able to say we appreciate you wanting to come to Kuna. However, the regional developed plan, with the line being drawn -- it's truly a hard line. We are not going to accept an annexation application, which is hard to deny a commercial development. And that cuts both ways. I think Meridian has that same obligation. If there is a landowner ready, willing, and able to come to Meridian. We have to offer that. In light of what we have done, in light of the shared planning of these resources, we are not going to accept your application and that might be upsetting and it might be in the short term problematic if you're trying to develop commercial. But if you do anything other than that this will never get anywhere. It's no different than establishing in my mind the area of city impact and having annexation free form, basically ignoring it. Giving in to landowner's desires, commercial desires and in Kuna's eyes (unintelligible), which I appreciate. So, to your point I'd love to see a line drawn that we will, then, each have the courage to say to any plan developer we are not going to cross that line. Even if you come to us ready, willing and able to annex. I understand how that (unintelligible). So, if the Kuna council is willing and able to make that commitment and say no and it's the council's and mayor's commitment on our side to do that as well, we can be successful. If we can make those representations here on record, there is media present, that will allow us to be constructive going forward. Once we get the line, then, so, then, we can hold ourselves accountable for it. Because you don't need Meridian annexing south of whatever line you have drawn and we certainly don't need Kuna annexing north. So, for me -- and, again, I apologize I have to leave. I will tell you right now I have made that commitment and that's a difficult one, but it's going to be better for the region as a whole when all of us are gone and that's, ultimately, our responsibility, so -- I appreciate the chance to sit down and listen and hear this input, so -- hopefully that's where we go and that's at least my take on this where we were. Thank you. Nelson: Thank you. Go ahead, Briana Buban-Vonder Haar: On Joe's note, I think what I'm having trouble with is we have three submissions or three -- Bird: Applications? Buban-Vonder Haar: Well, they are not fully applications, but intents to -- to annex and it's north of the line. It's south of Amity, but it's north of the lateral that was drawn. So, -- knowing that we have potentially 115 acres that are ready, willing and able in the every near future to go in and annex in, I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing the line on the lateral for me. And that's kind of going off of a lot the -- the feedback that you guys have given in terms of, you know, doing this dot map and this is -- you know, people have said I would like to be in this city or the other, we have people that are willing to Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 29 of 32 put their money where their mouth is and annex into the city right now and I think that -- if -- I think that holds waters for me, that they are -- you know, if that's where we are going with in terms of -- why some of these lines should be drawn in favor of Meridian and I think the same should hold true for Kuna and so if we have folks right there that want to be in Kuna, then, that -- I think that needs to be given deference just as we are lopping out this little chunk of people who want to be in Meridian. De Weerd: Well, mayor, I think you probably need to talk to the rural fire district and see if they can serve that area. Being we have an MOU and looking at the urban densities you're looking at putting in that area and commercial, you have to insure that you have fire service and that is not in the Kuna fire district. Their ability to develop in that area will be dependent on all services, not just water and sewer. Nelson: Well, yes, we would be willing to do that. You know, it doesn't really change anything that Meridian is going to put a reservoir over there. I mean that's still your reservoir. It's not going to do anything to be in either impact zone or either city. But, you know, if my council wants to go down Amity to the road and what have you, I'm kind of obligated to -- to follow their lead on that and what kind of huge problem would that create if we -- if we just went to the highway and, then, down the highway and, then, add that chunk that includes all those people that want to come in. De Weerd: Mayor, how -- how would it appear that we started annexing around your sewer treatment plant? It's the same with our (unintelligible) -- Nelson: Well, we offered to -- De Weerd: -- our area of impact and the area that we have committed to serve. Nelson: Remember, we offered to sell you a nice big chunk of that and we wouldn't be in this meeting today if we had all -- you know. But that didn't work out, so -- anyway, we will be happy to go to the fire district and say what is this going to create if the city actually goes up to the corner and -- between the rural fire district of Meridian and our fire district. Maybe Joe already knows that. Bird: But mayor? Nelson: Yes. Bird: You're telling me you're going back in on a -- it looks another, what, 20 acres or so on the east side. So, where -- so, we are not just going to Meridian Road on Amity, we are going on east of it to come down and get into your impact area, as I understand it. Nelson: Well, I think the agreement that Briana is talking about is going on Amity to the Meridian Road and, then, coming right on down Meridian Road. Bird: No. They are going across, as I understand. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 30 of 32 Buban-Vonder Haar: Just how our impact area is drawn and I believe there is property that's interested in being annexed that's on the east side of Meridian Road. Bird: That's what she just -- Nelson: Oh. Buban-Vonder Haar: I'm not proposing anything, because I don't think -- I'm getting the impression that there is not -- that we are just not going to come to a meeting of the minds regarding that triangle of land above the lateral, Amity -Meridian lateral. Nelson: Does all the council feel that way or can we make an agreement tonight with one dissension? Jones: I can go either way, Mayor. But I think if we go back to the fire district we are just creating more problems by delay. I think we all want to solve this tonight. Nelson: Okay. Jones: And -- I mean I understand -- Nelson: Well, there is two decisions. Yeah. For the -- for the Kuna council to make and that is would you accept what Keith drew coming right down the lateral to the highway or would you prefer to go from Amity -- what, a half mile or quarter mile? Where that -- the piece of property is? Buban-Vonder Haar: I mean if we are -- if we are going off this line we are already cutting out city of Kuna -- Nelson: Yeah. Buban-Vonder Haar: -- annexed property. If we are following the lateral and, then, cutting straight down Meridian Road, there is already city of Kuna annexed property on the east side of Lake Hazel that gets cut out of our area of impact. Bird: Now where? Zaremba: No, that isn't in your area of impact now. You're not cutting anything out. Buban-Vonder Haar: I'm saying if we go with this and say this is our area of impact, we are -- we already have Kuna city limits that are outside of that. Bird: We got one -- you got one deal where the -- where the college is on the east side. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 31 of 32 Buban-Vonder Haar: There is some that -- there is some that sits right -- right on Columbia Road and, then, there is some that's about halfway up -- halfway up Meridian between Columbia and Lake Hazel. Bird: And if you look at your old deal we -- we don't -- we don't take that -- that's your area anyway. We jog there for some reason. Nelson: Yeah. We had asked Troy to look at that or Wendy and tell us if those lines lined up and I haven't heard from them. (General simultaneous discussion.) De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Nelson: Yes. De Weerd: We have a meeting at 6:00 o'clock. Nelson: Okay. Well, all right. You know, we expected this to take an hour and here we are two and -- two hours and 15 minutes. We probably are going to have to do go back and call our council and have a workshop and next meeting will be at your place, okay? You won't have to come over here. Could I ask somebody to possibly get me a little (unintelligible) of the lines. That might be -- and I think that's where -- De Weerd: I have this one. If we took this out and -- that would mean you take this out. (General simultaneous discussion.) Nelson: So, we might -- or we better straighten the whole thing out when we are doing it, so that we don't have to come back anymore than meeting so that we understand where that line is and we straighten our east line out. Because I think the county has wanted us to do that also. (General simultaneous discussion.) De Weerd: Okay. We are sorry, we have to -- Nelson: Okay. Thank you. We appreciate you coming over. De Weerd: Thanks. Nelson: And it's a pleasure meeting you all. De Weerd: Nice to meet you -- or nice to meet you again. Item 2: Adjournment Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting September 23, 2014 Page 32 of 32 MEETING ADJOURNED AT P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) M � f t� De WEERD�� DATE APPROVED ATTEST: 4�O�, D A C'GL;s JAYZEE H MAN, CITY CLERK s� city' (,L C-/EP�I A O SLA-L ;TF 4a �� "te 411 CITY OF KUNA 1� RDs `"""°° IMPACT AREA w~ � ' LEGEND MLR ze�� � a =Sxe KUNAPROPOSEO IMPACTAREA o p KUNA EXISTING IMPACT AREA cowrwu_ S 8 z s ewM QAOACOUNTY BOUNDARY I_ RD L w HUME $ �� w xeMnulo w w w p 4 !!a m ca I w ED £® 6 WR _ Y z[ row � @ I,I m w eaa e `.uoow 3 8 I3�W x,a 3NUNA RD£ � ° DENERTMVR iw B S■■� C ¢ � W KIND ED & § g 3 W OMEN LN TUNAREBRARD § WHUNAMORA RD wN° w N pp°AT LM i ' 1 HER RD BARKER 90 I CHURNS MEN ix, 0 05 1 z 9 a Miles .I�I..II..�I_II.�_II II_I.j J•I_II�.II_II.�.� hY 6 'J` 6 I t t t I N-�- 1 City of Meridian Future Land Use Map Legend A Fire Station I School * Parks M Transit Station •'s • = Future Facilities y nnRlm p 11IIII..IIIr Ten Mile Interchange Specific eeee•. Future Roadway Future Interchange mm�llllllllu Future Overpass — Entryway Corridor Existing Waterway N. C. 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